IRC log for #koha, 2005-05-21

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
14:09 JYL57 hello
14:17 owen Hi kados, JYL57
14:17 JYL57 hello owen
14:24 owen kados:  what'd you think of rachel's search suggestions?
14:58 Sylvain hi all !
14:58 Sylvain many ppl there :)
14:58 JYL57 Hello Sylvain
14:58 owen Hi Sylvain
15:00 JYL57 Sylvain, I read the IRC log to discover that member creation didn't update "creation date" or something like that ?!
15:00 JYL57 Can you confirm/explain ?
15:00 Sylvain in fact when you create a member, its expiry date isn't set
15:00 Sylvain but Paul told me this afternoon (for us) that he had fixed it
15:01 Sylvain one other pb with members is that no account line is created for the fee when you create a member
15:02 Sylvain and I also think that there's no notification when the expiry date of a user has passed ...
15:02 JYL57 I have more than 250 members now. Any timestamp available to determine when they became member ?!
15:02 Sylvain on the members info page, there's a line like ", expiry "
15:02 Sylvain where you should have join date and expiry date
15:03 Sylvain but in reality, it remains blank
15:03 Sylvain yes, you should write a script to update it with first issue, sure
15:03 JYL57 Ok but the "join date" is stored so ?!
15:03 owen Sylvain, it should be possible to write a script that checks the expiration date of users and then...does something.  You could put it in cron and run it regularly.  But then the question is, what do you do with expired users?
15:04 owen There isn't any built-in status to flag a user as expired.
15:04 Sylvain owen, you at least write on circulation screen that the user account has expired
15:04 Sylvain then the librarian does what he wants
15:04 Sylvain but he knows it
15:04 owen you'd either have to set some kind of flag in the patron record, or just do the expiration check every time you loaded a patron record.
15:04 Sylvain it's remark a customer made to me and I think he's right, it's a problem not to see clearly the member has 'expired'
15:05 Sylvain yes, when you load user infos, I think it should be possible to check the date and write if needed
15:05 owen It's one of those aspects of Koha that have the potential of being useful but hasn't been expanded upon.
15:05 Sylvain I think I'll go further because it seems to be a real problem to our customer
15:06 owen welcome, shaun
15:06 shaun hi owen, all
15:08 christian Good afternoon to all.  
15:15 rach hello
15:17 shaun hi all, i'll be back at GMT 8:50, going to get some work done before the meeting
15:17 JohnN hello
15:17 slef hihi
15:18 kados hi slef
15:18 slef Are we all enjoying the Eurovision semi-final?
15:22 owen If I could be enjoying anything besides work, it would probably be a nap!
15:23 kados :-) little one keeping you up again?
15:23 owen Not this time.  It was George Lucas.
15:23 kados ahh ... how was it?
15:24 owen It was a lot of fun.
15:27 slef (BBC3/NDR/SLO2 and all good national broadcasters)
15:38 slef Hello Ben.
15:38 Ben hi slef..
15:38 Ben sorry I'm late: I wasn't sure of the time, and Dead Ringers (satirical comedy show) was on.
15:38 owen We're not starting for another 20 minutes or so
15:39 Ben ah.
15:39 slef Ben: UTC not BST.
15:39 Ben I got the time right, then - :P to shaun
15:39 slef Ben: Eurovision on BBC 3
15:40 Ben I don't have freeview; plus, the only decent music ever on Eurovision was ABBA in the late 70s
15:41 Ben lol
15:41 slef 70 quid on Monday from
15:42 slef if you're interested in going digital
15:42 Ben #
15:42 Ben I already have sky digital, but the telly connected to it is displaying something decent atm
15:43 slef ah, I prefer to avoid Murdoch and remember Hillsborough
15:43 JohnN the theme is interesting
15:43 Ben oh yes.. and as a resident of a deep Cornish valley, freeview is not yet available to me, despite the analogue transmitters being turned off soonish
15:43 JohnN Which is the objective?  
15:44 slef I plan to replace the satsys with a PVR, but everything else gets done first ;-)
15:44 slef JohnN: of what?
15:44 slef hi alaurin
15:44 Ben hmm.. E4 is coming to freeview soon
15:44 alaurin hi
15:44 Ben[…]postcode=pl22+0ab
15:45 slef Ben: not got full freeview/DTT here without new aerials, amplifiers and so on. Cheaper to get satellite. Not even got clear national FM or AM station reception, though. :-/
15:46 Ben mmm.
15:47 Ben however, satellite connections are expensive, and I really hate flicking through close to 500 channels I don't have to get something interesting.. most of the time I just watch the BBC channels or C4 (no Five here either)
15:47 shaun hi ben, everyone else, i'm back.
15:47 Ben hi shaun..
15:47 Ben told you it was 10pm
15:47 slef erm, hello ki11er?
15:47 slef wb shaun
15:48 JohnN is my first experience in the IRC
15:48 michael opps forgot about that
15:48 slef Ben: expensive
15:48 shaun (slef: what does wb mean?)
15:48 Ben welcome back
15:48 slef JohnN: ah, right. We're waiting a few minutes until the meeting starts, then it will proceed something like a real-space meeting.
15:48 slef shaun: welcome back
15:49 Ben 10 mins left yet, slef
15:49 slef I don't use many, but I'm lazy on the socialities.
15:49 shaun ah, *nitmf.toflas* ;-)
15:50 shaun what's a LART?
15:50 slef go look it up on
15:51 shaun ah... lol
15:51 JohnN thanks :slef
15:53 indradg 5 more minutes to go... damned mosquitoes eating me up alive!
15:53 slef indradg: napalm?
15:53 indradg slef, lol
15:54 shaun second. most. useful. dictionary. ever. after that is
15:55 indradg slef, palletize allethrin
15:56 shaun slef: would that be firefox? i use for all my "serious" word searching...
15:57 slef yay, terry wogan is answering the phone votes
15:57 slef shaun: it's a firefox-based browser.
15:57 slef hello tholbroo
15:58 tholbroo good afternoon
15:59 Ben slef, netscape 8?
15:59 slef Ben: no, just a local mod of firefox to make it free ;-)
15:59 Ben it IS free
15:59 shaun not as in freedom.
16:00 Ben why is it not free as in freedom?
16:00 slef shaun++
16:00 shaun ooh, it's just flicked over to 9PM GMT - *itching to start*
16:00 slef as in free software. Firefox as shipped contains uneditable artwork, trademarks and settings
16:00 slef Uh, is kaitiaki here?
16:00 rach just sat down
16:01 Ben slef, 1.1 has greatly expanded GUI settings changers, and I don't see the problem with copyrighted artwork...
16:01 rach yes, although he's saying paul lunch, which is a bit of a long lunch really
16:01 Ben ah well.
16:01 slef hello J_Holm
16:01 J_Holm hi
16:01 owen How 'bout chris?
16:01 shaun slef: which settings are you talking about? i know about the artwork, i have had a dilemma over that myself, but not sure about settings
16:01 chris im here
16:01 rach yep he's here
16:01 slef rach: French restaurants :)
16:02 indradg heh
16:02 rach :-)
16:02 shaun hehe
16:02 Ben lol
16:02 Ben (not literally)
16:02 shaun stop lolling ben, this is irc, we're serious and talking about koha.
16:03 slef shaun: Google search. Talk after, if you want.
16:03 rach they are pouring into the back rows now :-)
16:03 Ben no we're not.
16:03 slef I'm pouring into the beer glass. :_)
16:04 mishadoko hi everyone ;-) someone steal my name here -:))
16:04 kados Ben: well ... it worked last time ;-)
16:04 Ben kados.. how??
16:04 michael mishadoko: me did
16:05 michael :-)
16:05 mishadoko i'm joking but there is 2 michael this time :-)
16:05 kados Ben: I guess some folks are more likely to check email than IRC ...
16:05 kados Ben: regularly
16:05 slef I'd phone paul, but I don't know if his number follows him at night.
16:05 michael I thought my normal IRC name wouldn't go down to well
16:05 rach So where is everyone from - I suspect that indradg gets the commitment award for getting up in the middle of the night?
16:05 Ben well, if he's signed in to IRC, he should notice
16:05 JohnN ;-) welcome to all
16:06 shaun nvm ben, paul's a very clever person. i get emails before i get things over msn, but maybe that's msn :\
16:06 Ben shaun and I are from the UK, and it's six minutes past 22
16:06 michael rach: me from here in WGTN (Trentham to be exact)
16:06 shaun slef: where abouts?
16:07 slef shaun: from Northamptonshire, living in Norfolk
16:07 rach hey here he is :-)
16:07 hdl hi paul
16:07 shaun hi paul
16:07 Ben slef, I originated from rushden
16:07 Ben hi paul
16:07 JohnN hi paul :)
16:07 rach Hokay, welcome everyone for our first big Koha meeting in 2005
16:08 Dweezil hi from Dublin, Ireland
16:08 slef Ben, Towcester
16:08 paul paul, Marseille, France
16:08 Dweezil oops Gavin, Dublin, Ireland (silly nickname)
16:08 nono arnaud,Istres,france
16:08 slef uh, I was talking to Ben. My name isn't Ben.
16:08 mishadoko hi [bonsoir] paul ;-)
16:08 kados Joshua, Ohio US (Nelsonville PL and LibLime)
16:09 indradg hi... Indranil from Calcutta, India
16:09 J_Holm I'm from Grand Rapids, MI, USA
16:09 mishadoko Michaël, Hauts-de-Seine, France
16:09 chris Island bay, wellington, new zealand
16:09 JohnN welcome ross!
16:09 Ben oh.. so that's where calcutta is
16:09 slef Can someone stick the log URL on the end of the channel topic, please?
16:09 russ russ, katipod, wellington nz
16:10 michael yeh we have 4 people in WGTN
16:10 rach rachel - wellington NZ
16:10 shedges stephen, ohio usa
16:10 rach si is simon here in wellington
16:10 JYL57 JYL57, Jean-Yves France
16:11 rach that looks like most of us
16:11 Ben so, em, who'll open the meeting?
16:11 rach me
16:11 Ben ok
16:12 rach We have an agenda for today - and we're a big group so if you want to have side coversations just make yourselves a seperate channel
16:12 rach is probalby easier
16:12 paul hi/salut Sylvain. Just beginning.
16:12 rach First up welcome everyone, it's nice to see so many names, and from a nice wide range or places
16:13 Sylvain great paul
16:13 rach It's been a good year for Koha I believe, with a new version, and new libraries picking it up
16:13 slef I'll continue greeting people in msg, just so people know.
16:13 rach cool thanks slef :-)
16:14 rach as the software gets more mature we have some interesting new challenges to face'
16:14 rob oxford, oh...just being nosey....
16:14 rach and it's great to see such a lot of people interested in the project, I'm hoping we might get some more volunteers
16:14 rach and a bit more division of labour
16:15 rach I'm aware that Paul had the lions share of effort for V2.2
16:15 Ben *light, scattered applause for paul*
16:15 rach and with a new version we get lots of great ideas, and it would be useful to put our heads together as to how we might usefully spread the load a bit
16:16 paul yes, and /me will be very happy to let someone else go to 2.4 (or maybe 3.0). It's time for Koha to have new ideas & new Release Manager ;-)
16:16 rach So maybe paul could you do a quick recap now on where 2.2 is at - are you basically installing and bugsquashing?
16:17 rach ben I've sent you what I've got I believe
16:17 slef JYL57: Linux-kernel-style numbering. 2.3 will be the developer edition.
16:17 Ben I think we're naming it in the same fashion as the linux kernel
16:17 paul JYL57 : we have the same numbers as linux kernel : 2.3 means = unstable
16:17 paul rach, OK for the recap
16:17 shaun ben: off irc, i'll send you it.
16:17 Ben rach, so you only have a png
16:17 Ben thanks shaun
16:17 paul I've installed koha 2.2 in some libraries now.
16:17 paul Still some bugs to squash & some improvements to do.
16:18 paul I already have 3-4 bugfixes for 2.2.3 & some minor improvements.
16:18 shaun[…]20May%209PM%20GMT
16:18 paul do you want a list of bugfixes already done ?
16:18 paul * a bug in authorities management (selecting & reporting to biblio)
16:19 paul * a bug in borrowers joining & expiring dates
16:19 paul * some graphic improvements.
16:19 paul * a bug in issues & fine setting.
16:19 Ben when is this bug with the omnipresent Options box in transfers going to be fixed?
16:19 paul (most of them will be commited to CVS in the next hours/days)
16:19 JohnN Thanks Paul therefore effort, is of great benefit the system in Bolivia.  
16:20 paul ben could you remind me what you're speaking of ?
16:20 slef Ben: got a bug number?
16:20 Sylvain bug in issues and fine is the one I was talking this afternoon paul ?
16:20 shaun ben: please stop bothering us about that, and it's messages
16:20 paul i know i've a lot of bugs in bugzilla to solve. I expect to have some time next week.
16:21 Ben erm, shaun and I have been developing new templates, as you know, but we can't get the Messages box in Transfers to go away
16:21 paul and i also have some nice ideas for a better usability.
16:21 chris im sure paul would love any help solving bugs also
16:21 paul yes chris, of course...
16:21 chris even if you cant code, you might have some ideas, feel free to annotate any bugs
16:21 paul I feel a little alone (with hdl & sylvain) on rel_2_2 branch...
16:22 owen kados and I are trying to pitch in too, paul!
16:22 kados :-)
16:22 paul yes, right, sorry to have miss you in my list.
16:22 rach who else is running 2.2 at the moment?
16:23 paul in france, i think there are no libraries still in 2.0
16:23 chris so if you want glory and a mention in the thank you notes .. fix some bugs *grin* most bugs gets a chocolate fish
16:23 paul (maybe Esiee)
16:23 Genji ahh... not late?
16:23 paul just a little late bit Genji
16:24 Genji k.
16:24 youbeeh hi everybody
16:24 chris katipo is in the process of converting a library from their existing library to koha 2.2
16:24 paul youbeeh is a frenchie, but who is it ??? (introduce yourself)
16:24 slef I have 2.2 running, but I'm not very motivated (especially not by chocolate: allergic). I think I'm waiting for 2.3 to get a direction to push at.
16:24 indradg i'm running 2.2.2 at West Bengal University of Technology Central Library, and starting on a branch library as well
16:24 Genji Long time no see, good to be back in action.
16:24 kados LibLime is running 2.2 for our demos and NPL is running 2.2 as well
16:24 youbeeh I'm a student who is trying to install koha for a project
16:25 kados youbeeh: have you seen our documentation project:
16:25 kados we need to promote that more on the main Koha page IMO
16:25 youbeeh Student from Univerite Paris 5 (Paris) in Artificial Intelligence
16:25 gavin agreed on listing
16:25 Sylvain I really agree with kados ...
16:26 Tom1243 wouldn't kill anyone
16:26 shaun yes, also agreeing
16:26 Tom1243 This is Brooke, BTW
16:26 youbeeh Yes, I've seen kohadocs, but i dont know anything about MARC and ISO2709. that's why i'm a little borried
16:27 rach Ok so it seems like 2.2 then has good uptake, and should have lots of happy bug hunters
16:27 Brooke MARC is not that hard to pick up on, and even if you don't know a fig about it, it's a good idea to choose it over no MARC
16:27 kados or unhappy bug hunters ;-)
16:27 rach indeed :-)
16:27 Brooke MARC has a whole lot of fields and ordinary person wouldn't add
16:27 rach brook & Youbeeh - you might want to have a private conversation about tha
16:27 Genji yup. I prefer non marc... easier to work with perl.
16:27 Brooke which means your users will be happier
16:28 rach just a reminder there are a lot of us here, some are up late, if you want to have a chat with someone, just start another channel
16:28 youbeeh yes. I've installed koha 2.2 yesterday and tried to connect to z3950 servers to retrive notice but no response
16:28 Brooke this is a koha thing, not an individual user thing. MARC is integral to the project IMO
16:29 michael Genji: rach
16:29 paul chairperson is rach
16:29 rach Me
16:29 youbeeh rach > U're right : i'll ask for private conv with brook.
16:29 shaun youbeeh: be patient, I found that problem... wait a minute and it will start searching
16:29 rach SO on to the new release
16:29 paul to finish with 2.2 :
16:29 youbeeh thnks
16:29 paul I think i'll release a 2.2.3 in 3-4 weeks
16:30 paul maybe 2.
16:30 chris cool paul
16:30 paul then, i'll continue backporting interesting features from head to rel_2_2 & fix bugs where needed
16:30 Genji looking forward to it. Should get back into CVS, myself.
16:31 shaun slef: sorry, I didn't realise that a saved query's "now" was the time at which it was saved.
16:31 paul that's all for me with 2.2 branch?
16:31 rach excellent - we look forward to your next release :-)
16:32 rach Ok so now to the next release - and the first thing is the release manager
16:32 JohnN I am carries official voice of the system of Argentina and Bolivia UMSA and BDF UNLP
16:32 paul and the winner is ...
16:32 rach Joshua has volunteered, is there any objection?
16:32 JohnN I am carries official voice of the system of Argentina and Bolivia UMSA and BDF UNLP
16:32 shaun kados.
16:32 Sylvain no objection for me
16:33 kados I don't object ;-)
16:33 Genji I second.
16:33 rach JohnN - ?
16:33 paul no news from Ineo & no Ineo person present at the moment ?
16:33 slef I second
16:33 owen I think the position is uncontested
16:33 hdl But maybe JohnN has sthg to say
16:33 kados michael: that's actually shedges project ;-)
16:33 michael oh
16:34 michael sorry
16:34 kados though I have written a fair share of the docs there
16:34 shedges yep
16:34 paul (n oproblems, they both are from nelsonville, Ohio ;-) )
16:34 Brooke yep Stephen somehow finds the time to prettify my babble
16:34 paul hi stephen.
16:34 shedges hey paul
16:34 paul (anyway, i would be very happy to see joshua as RM. and i wish him lot of fun)
16:35 Nick (anyone but you, right Paul? chuckling...)
16:35 paul (i don't wish him lot of work : he will have enough without any wishes ;-) )
16:35 kados Here's a link to some of the features I'd like to see in KOha 2.4
16:35 kados[…]20May%209PM%20GMT
16:35 kados oops
16:35 kados
16:35 kados the second on is the right link
16:36 Genji oh i so love having three screeens.
16:37 Ben incidentally, I can do documentation work, in accordance with the first item on that list..
16:37 Sylvain about the projet of kados, searching improvements seems to me an important thing ...
16:37 kados Right ... that'd be great
16:37 Genji yup. my org's secretary is harping on about wanting a manual.
16:37 Nick I'll try (as usual) to pitch in.
16:38 kados In my vision of the 2.4 release process I'd like to see a 'manager' of each major section of Koha
16:38 kados not to constrain what can be done ... mainly to make sure it actually gets done
16:38 Genji is it possible to intergrate a passworded wiki into koha, as the online help?
16:38 Ben does anyone have an objection to me putting my doc work as a WikiBook?
16:39 shedges no, just share the link
16:39 Ben i.e.
16:39 shedges thanks!
16:39 Sylvain Ben, wikibook and wikimedia projects are great, I don't objet :)
16:39 Ben damned mediawiki customisation..
16:39 rach So joshua over the next few weeks will you be calling for volunteers
16:39 kados so we need tom volunteers to fill the positions
16:40 rach and forming "groups" around the various tasks
16:40 slef Ben: I suggest writing a free software manual (GPL?) and using a more wiki-like wiki
16:40 kados I assume Stephen will be the Doc manager?
16:40 kados yep
16:40 kados I'd vote that Owen be our interface designer
16:40 shedges sure
16:40 shaun ben: it would be good if you could use something like forrest or docbook to share the documentation in other formats, and posting on
16:40 Ben slef, I prefer mediawiki, which wiki did you have in mind?
16:40 shaun ben and slef: GFDL
16:40 Brooke I really hope that there will be a very visible link from to kohadocs.
16:41 Nick I can cope with helping format into Docbook XML.
16:41 kados what we need badly are a QA person and some writers/blogers
16:41 Brooke I still get a lot of shock about people that couldn't find either the wiki or kohadocs
16:41 owen bloggers?
16:41 Ben shaun, as you well know, I am not going to use forrest. I am attempting in using wikibooks to find a way of easily producing this so it can be shared with others, and collaboration
16:41 Nick ...a copy to screenshot helps also.
16:41 rach we need some people talking about koha
16:41 kados well ... maybe just a single blogger
16:41 kados an official blogger or something
16:41 rach like stephens diary, but as it happened :-)
16:41 slef shaun: FDL is a pain for debian, even ignoring the other questions
16:41 kados right
16:42 kados I suppose that could fall under documentation but in my book it's more PR or advertising
16:42 slef kados: I'll blog and set up a page under Columns on for anyone else who wants to?
16:42 Ben slef, which wiki would you have me use?
16:42 rach and I get asked for articles, but I'm not good at writing them
16:42 shaun ben: private discussion for that.
16:42 Genji bloggers are all the rage these days.
16:42 owen I like that idea, kados.  Maybe we could set up a group blog on
16:42 kados I think with a bit more marketing we could draw in more programmers and libraries interested in getting involved
16:42 slef Ben, not sure at the minute. One which uses
16:42 Genji if you want to advertise it, blog it. Or slashdot it.
16:42 pate i like the  blogging idea
16:42 shaun owen: i like that idea
16:43 Brooke i dunno, a blog would require fairly constant maintenance
16:43 slef owen: otherwayup is a blog aggregator. I'll call for RSS URLs in a few days, once my email settles?
16:43 kados so any volunteers for that?
16:43 kados the other major thing Koha's missing is QA
16:44 kados on problem is we don't have docs for how to do QA
16:44 Ben kados, QA is ok for me as wel
16:44 shaun if we make the blog central (i.e. somewhere on and give devs access to it, I would be more than willing to contribute regularly
16:44 Ben l
16:44 chris kados: id suggest you send out an email after the meeting, with the roles you envisage
16:44 kados ok
16:44 owen slef, you mean this: ?
16:44 shaun but I doubt if other developers would be willing to maintain their own blogs.
16:44 indradg one idea... how abt a planet-koha
16:44 slef owen: yes, but with a different skin
16:45 Nick different skin?
16:45 slef shaun: I think I can set up email->blog, but I've not got one running at the minute
16:45 slef Nick: different page style
16:45 rach Ok so we have some takers for blogs - joshua write those nicks down :-)
16:45 kados :-)
16:45 indradg I help maintain rss aggregator for FOSS dev blogs of Indian/indian-origin
16:45 Brooke write? People use pencils?!
16:46 kados what's a pencil?
16:46 kados :-)
16:46 paul this word means nothing in french.
16:46 shaun one of those things that you tap your pda skin with. oh no, that's a stylus.
16:46 rach I know that both Slef and I have a keen interest in the design of Koha  - interface etc, so Owen I suspect you should add us to your wee list
16:46 shaun same here rach - I'm coming from design
16:46 owen Okay, and ben and shaun as well
16:46 rach and ben and shaun as well perhaps
16:47 rach snap :-)
16:47 owen Problem with you, rach, is you design stuff that no one has coded yet! ;)
16:47 Sylvain with the new screenshot, I support rach for design :)
16:47 Nick (but you push it with such style!)
16:48 slef yes, please add me to a UI list, but beware my email address will change soon
16:48 Genji owen: her designs are beautiful.. but i take a look and think.... how do you do that? Is that possible?
16:48 shaun it isn't working atm - HEAD has problems, and I will not be updating rel_2.2 as well.
16:48 kados there are a few things to think about when we're talking about design: usability, beauty, accessability, standards-compliance, etc.
16:48 rach we have html for the "look" just not the features
16:48 kados I think the ID should make sure we've got all the bases covered
16:48 Nick accessability is a big one:  keep in mind for gov't supported libs in a lot of places, accessability is absolute.
16:49 Brooke exactly nick
16:49 indradg Nick, good point!
16:49 slef yes, this is a problem for me too
16:49 rach yep us to
16:49 Brooke function first, pretty is nice
16:49 russ hmm, i thought that was what templates were for
16:49 Genji also.. would be good if we could have a template that could run off a cellphone. Or a PDA.
16:49 Brooke That's why I rate DRA over Epixtech :)
16:49 kados one advantage that owen has is that he actually works the desk
16:49 paul shaun : i know there are some bugs introduced by my last cvs syn'ch. drop me a mail when you encounter one, i'll fix it asap.
16:49 russ so that you could have pretty if you wanted it
16:49 rach so that you end up with functional & pretty
16:50 shaun beauty and usability as well - i have a number of experiences where people have refused to use a product because of its look, obviously.
16:50 chris im with shaun
16:50 chris never underestimate the eye candy
16:50 kados yep
16:50 Nick flaming/rotating logos!!! : )
16:50 paul I agree with all of you about beauty, usability & accessability.
16:50 russ shaun  - i agree, in my role as a project manager i see people forgive faults in stuff that looks beatiful all the time
16:50 paul just reminind another important point :
16:50 Nick *class* is a must.  Not that we've ever not had it.
16:50 paul "translatability"
16:51 chris good point paul
16:51 paul (does this word exist ?)
16:51 Brooke I'm not underestimating it - i know a lot jumped on because of stephen's templates
16:51 kados good one paul
16:51 shaun Genji: I can do a PDA one quite easily - are you talking about palm or PocketPC?
16:51 Brooke but if it doesn't work at the end of the day, folks aren't going to stay
16:51 slef paul: translatabilitification?
16:51 kados Brooke: do you mean owen's templates?
16:51 shedges (owen's templates)
16:51 Brooke stephens $ ;)
16:51 shedges hehe
16:51 owen :)
16:51 Brooke Yes owen makes pretty stuff.
16:51 Genji shaun: any small size screen. think 160 x 160 is the smallest ive come across, for pda's.
16:52 rach OK - now is not the time to actaully redesign things
16:52 Nick added bonus maybe:  PDA for inventory/"roving" work.
16:52 shaun I'll look into it - i have a pda which needs something to do
16:52 rach Joshua are we done for now with 2.4 - you want people to add their wishis to your page
16:52 shaun Nick: absolutely - could do a lot for inventory
16:53 kados that sound good
16:53 rach we will have specific meetings/mail stuff about features etc
16:53 Ben anyone wishing to assist me in creating the koha wikibook should do so at
16:53 kados :-)
16:53 shaun Keep presentation separate from everything else is what I say - looks make it the killer.
16:53 rach but if there is something that is your pasion, graphic design, usability, searching, acquisitioning, interfacing with other systems etc let joshua know
16:54 rach and then he can drag you in for it
16:54 Nick (also, on presentation ...let's not forget everyone is not broadband linked ...)
16:54 rach oh - QA, Testing and bugfixing - we particularly love people who like to refactor (rather than code new features)
16:54 Brooke I can make little icons with Paint :)
16:54 paul nono => the 5-6 last sentences are important for SAN ;-)
16:54 shaun a critical problem with the default 2.2 ones is the number of classes e.g. class="button circulation"
16:54 slef Ben, please put it under GPL so it can be included with koha later.
16:54 paul why ? it's "legal" ?
16:54 rach guys stop now
16:55 rach we'll be here all night otherwise
16:55 kados yep ... let's not go thee atm
16:55 kados there even ;-)
16:55 slef rach: I like to refactor, but uncommented code is often tricky to be sure about.
16:55 rach Stephen, You've been hard at work on the docs - lets move on to them
16:55 paul (thanks rach to think to frenchies : it's almost midnight for us !)
16:55 shaun i was hoping we would be... 2.4 is a major milestone ;-)
16:55 shedges I think we need some spanish translations
16:55 shedges especially the sysadmin docs
16:55 paul (& i'm already wondering if it should not be called 3.0 !)
16:56 shedges they get hit a lot
16:56 slef (so take that as a beg for good comments when you write new code!)
16:56 shedges yeah, i wonder if someone shouldn't be policing that
16:56 rach yep good point slef - documentation starts in the code :-)
16:56 Nick Anyone geek-english/spanish bilingual?
16:57 shedges JohnN?
16:57 Sylvain I really agree with comments, it's really surprising to see the small amount of comments in koha code ...
16:57 kados agreed
16:57 shedges paul, you'vr been good with your comments
16:57 shedges want to make some guidelines?
16:58 paul please ?
16:58 Ben ok.. how are we going to host this doco then?
16:58 indradg "Koha coding standards and guidelines for contributors"
16:58 Nick (wouldn't hurt to include examples with the guidelines....)
16:58 shedges yeah
16:58 slef Ben, if it comes back?
16:58 Brooke here's a ?
16:58 Ben slef, ok
16:59 Brooke Documentation -> More useful with pics, but where would I upload them to?
16:59 slef Ben, if not, we'll replace it, I expect ;-)
16:59 shedges that would be great
16:59 Ben it's not down
16:59 paul ok, i'll add this to my almost empty (grins) agenda...
16:59 JohnN Is the first time in the IRC, excuses by the language, my spek  is Spanish  
16:59 shedges Brooke:  send me pics, I can add them
17:00 slef What do people think about perltidy'ing the source?
17:00 Genji perltidy?
17:00 youbeeh do you have something lake an UML design for all the project ?
17:00 paul shedges : could you explain (maybe with a mail on koha-devel) how to add a picture with xmlmind on a docbook document.
17:00 shaun koha v3 really should have something which sets it aside technically from other ILS, plus super-duper templates, and advanced (Plucene?) searching imo... that's a long way off, but I don't know what will set 2.4 apart yet...
17:00 chris i use perltidy a lot
17:00 Nick We have a UMLish thing and some nice pics.
17:00 Ben sorry, I have to go now.
17:00 Ben byee.
17:00 Nick Look at the thing @ (the architectural study)
17:00 paul youbeeh : no we don't
17:00 slef Genji: perltidy is for perl like indent is for C
17:01 youbeeh ok
17:01 shedges paul, save it in gif.  I'll e-mail more info
17:01 chris i think using it for koha is a good thing
17:02 Genji oohhh.. i like perltidy. got it open in the other screen.
17:02 shedges OK, goals for documentation:
17:02 shedges get some guidelines for commenting code
17:02 shedges get some spanish translations
17:02 chris you cant really have too much comments
17:03 Sylvain translate the upcoming user guide in important languages
17:03 Nick (...proofread everything, the perpetual goal of doc)
17:03 shedges shoudl we require perldoc type comments?
17:03 Nick Suggestions for important?  
17:03 slef chris: I think "$s = $s + 1; # add 1 to $s" is a bit far.
17:04 slef shedges: encourage and request. Not sure we can require unless only kados may commit.
17:04 Sylvain sure slef but right now we are really far from that ...
17:04 Sylvain koha code really misses comments ...
17:04 slef Sylvain++
17:04 Genji slef: ++$s
17:04 Nick how about some bare minimums?
17:05 paul my opinion is that the minimums are :
17:05 Nick ie, "always comment the following: SQL, etc etc"?
17:05 paul * explain what a script does at the beginning
17:05 paul * use meaningful variable names
17:05 slef Nick, care to draft something?
17:05 paul * add a comment where you are not doing a trivial thing
17:06 Nick (Paul's got the most experience reading what's there...)
17:06 Nick (defer to him, first)
17:06 gavin is there much use of regexps? sometimes it's no harm to comment those
17:06 paul ok, i'll write something, you will be able to improve it
17:06 shedges great!
17:06 chris not a huge amount, but yes you are right gavin, regexps can look like line noise
17:07 shedges may I suggest an explanation at the beginning of each function?
17:07 hdl paul sugested that too.
17:08 paul (in fact, stephen, there are 2 different things : .pl and .pm)
17:08 JohnN I can help has to do the translator in spanish.
17:08 paul (in a .pl we are supposed to have only 1 function (main))
17:08 shedges great!!
17:08 slef shedges: I think that would be best as POD.
17:08 hdl The best would be to agree on a template for comments.
17:08 rach awesome john
17:08 paul (in .pm we are supposed to have POD !)
17:08 Nick good idea, the template.
17:08 shedges yep, and most of the old stuff does have POD
17:08 JohnN <gavin> is there much use of regexps? sometimes it's no harm to comment those
17:09 JohnN <paul> ok, i'll write something, you will be able to improve it
17:09 JohnN <shedges> great!
17:09 JohnN <chris> not a huge amount, but yes you are right gavin, regexps can look like line noise
17:09 JohnN <shedges> may I suggest an explanation at the beginning of each function?
17:09 JohnN <hdl> paul sugested that too.
17:09 JohnN <paul> (in fact, stephen, there are 2 different things : .pl and .pm)
17:09 JohnN <JohnN> I can help has to do the translator in spanish.
17:09 JohnN <paul> (in a .pl we are supposed to have only 1 function (main))
17:09 rach eek
17:09 Genji ack, JohnN?
17:09 slef JohnN: paste error.
17:09 shedges deja vu
17:09 hdl Why not having a wiki page for comments template ?
17:09 rach yep - johns first time in IRC so we'll cut him some slack :-)
17:10 shedges (most be all the drugs in the '60s....)
17:10 youbeeh me too first time in IRC  ;)
17:10 rach our only trouble with wiki's seems to be they get hacked
17:10 rach is that right?
17:10 chris spammed
17:11 chris not hacked
17:11 indradg password protect the wiki?
17:11 slef spamtrapping is a fun arms race
17:11 slef indradg: doesn't work. Also have to blacklist offending URLs.
17:11 chris but putting the password on the wiki has stopped it pretty effectiviel
17:11 chris y
17:11 Brooke yup
17:12 shedges OK, JohnN, I'm going to look to you for some translations -- I'll be in touch
17:12 Brooke unfortunately, it wipes a lot from Google :(
17:12 shedges paul, you'll start some guidelines for comments?
17:12 paul yep shedges
17:12 slef Brooke: password for edit only helps, but means you still attract spammers, as you can help their google ranks.
17:12 shedges great!!  anything else for docs right now?
17:13 slef Brooke: I mean, is there's no password for viewing.
17:13 paul online help maybe ?
17:13 slef "if" not "is"
17:13 Nick Anything useful I can do Steve?
17:13 Brooke right
17:13 paul some frenchies are working on it (in french for instance)
17:13 Nick ...always available for proofing, btw, if anyone is drafting stuff.
17:13 paul they have written some onlinehelp on the wiki.
17:13 Nick Always!
17:13 Brooke Frenchies speak french?! Oh man, I have it all wrong ;)
17:13 paul still to be improved
17:13 rach oh good one paul
17:14 shedges good, the online help now is already out of date!
17:14 shedges how do we get online help from the wiki to cvs?
17:14 paul not really out of date. but uncomplete yes
17:14 paul copy paste manually !
17:15 shedges Nick, is that something that would interest you?
17:15 Brooke it's that easy paul?
17:15 shedges Brfooke?
17:15 shedges (Brooke?)
17:15 paul easy yes. Boring, for sure ;-)
17:15 Nick Shoveling the CVS stuff?
17:15 Nick I can cope.
17:15 Nick Can't be any worse than hand tagging docbook xml
17:15 chris :)
17:15 shedges hehe
17:16 Brooke what piece of the online help would you like me to start with? Koha is a little large ;)
17:16 paul is your friend Nick !
17:16 Nick that it is.
17:16 shedges Brooke, have you got 2.2.2?
17:16 paul brooke : just use Koha & clic "Help".
17:16 Brooke had it, dropped back down to rc4, because I couldn't add biblios
17:16 paul if you see "sorry no help", then you've got a page to write !
17:17 shedges we need to add stuff that's missing, correct a few things that have changed since 2.0
17:17 shedges IIRC, the wiki's set up pretty nicely
17:17 Nick paul:  have been out of loop a bit, may call on you for pointers/what to look for.
17:17 paul (in parameters & new features in 2.2, everything should be writen & uptodate)
17:18 Brooke how about I start with the borrower fine screen?
17:18 paul in older sections, there is usually nothing
17:18 paul for example, in member section
17:18 rach start at a bit you understand brooke :-)
17:18 JohnN count with me for the translations of documents al Spanish
17:18 rach thank you john
17:19 shedges great?  I'd choose one of the install docs to start with
17:19 Nick Will make CVS sync'ing part of my "weekly or so" routine.
17:19 paul Brroke : ok for borrower fine screen.
17:19 Nick Steve.... one of the things that is definitely "not fresh" is a FAQ.
17:19 paul ... is manual installation of Koha
17:19 shedges JohnN, 'Install Koha on Fedora" gets the most hits
17:20 chris yep the FAQ needs a complete rewrite
17:20 Nick tried to restart that awhile back, fingers froze up trying to shuttle stuff from the mail-lists into wiki while making sense of answers.
17:20 shedges Where is that old FAQ, Nick?
17:20 chris amd we should just kill the quick start installation guide
17:20 Nick (will dredge it up... you want the wiki attempt, or the Really Old One?)
17:21 chris it worked fine for 1.0.2 ... but that was a long time ago
17:21 rach\
17:21 rach that one?
17:21 chris thats the really old one
17:21 rach it is really old
17:21 chris without the \
17:21 chris :_
17:21 kados IMO should have a 'documentation' link on the left-hand side that links to
17:21 shedges wiki attempt sounds interesting, Nick
17:21 Brooke i concur
17:21 chris theres a lot that should be done to
17:21 rach we have "website" as item 9 on the agenda :-)
17:21 youbeeh right : newbees like me always need FAQ
17:21 paul (i've plan to add such a link in
17:21 kados rach: sorry ;-)
17:21 Nick There is a fresher, XML'd one in the stuff I've got.
17:21 Nick the wiki is ... hangon...
17:22 shaun Ben has told me to suggest that the website needs updating... what number are we on now? ;-)
17:22 rach so if we're kinda done with documentation.... or at least got to a level of detail that we should probalby more on?
17:22 rach more = move
17:22 chris good idea rach
17:22 slef rach: what item are we on now?
17:22 Nick[…]ndex.php?page=FAQ
17:22 rach we are on number 5
17:22 slef cool, that's what I thought
17:23 rach 6 - volunteers needed
17:23 paul only 1 answer : always ;-)
17:23 Brooke hooray
17:23 rach have we mostly covered that already?
17:23 paul number 7 now ?
17:23 rach 7 - How to get new features into Koha
17:23 Genji think im motivated back into koha, thanks all
17:24 owen Step One: Don't file an enhancement bug.
17:24 Nick ditto, Genji, ditto.
17:24 rach So Joshua, Paul, Chris as our various release managers, it would be good to hear from you guys, what others can do to get new features into koha
17:25 chris just do it
17:25 chris before the feature freeze
17:25 chris :)
17:25 paul my opinion on this is that the release manager should :
17:25 kados yep
17:25 rach and if you're not a coder?
17:25 paul * ask what we should add
17:25 chris find someone who is
17:25 rach find one and convince them to?
17:25 paul * when do we plan to release ?
17:25 chris and bribe them too
17:25 paul * who can say "i'll do it"
17:25 kados find one and pay them ;-)
17:25 owen Yeah, I think bribing is the important step.
17:26 owen I don't think we have many Koha coders sitting around looking for something to do.
17:26 paul we have a lot of new features that will come from SAN Ouest Provence.
17:26 kados paul: yep ... I plan to do that
17:26 kados that's great
17:26 slef Careful, I get flamed for suggesting that I can be bribed, IIRC
17:26 paul I think nono should write some line now here.
17:26 Nick Incidentally (call it new business).
17:26 shaun what is the status with the argentinian code, paul?
17:26 kados I wish they would be more visible
17:26 nono i'm here
17:26 paul nothing new ...
17:26 kados I'm the last one to talk to Emiliano
17:26 Nick Is there an official Bribery Vehicle?
17:26 Brooke what does joshua think seeing as he's the head release d00d now...
17:27 Nick I'm semi serious.
17:27 kados he's sending me a tgz file with everything and I"m going to try to weed through it ;-)
17:27 shaun that's where most of the code that we (in school) are interested in should be coming from - the argentinian stuff
17:27 paul (you should explain what are SAN plans nono : timeline, ressources & maybe some features)
17:27 owen kados: ouch.
17:27 kados yep ... well it's better than not having it at all
17:27 slef Nick: in what sense?
17:28 rach are you wanting to know if people can donate to the koha cause?
17:28 chris shall we put that one in general business
17:28 Nick Bingo, Rach.
17:28 paul kados : feel free to share some code with me & hdl if you feel overwhelmed.
17:28 Brooke yes, but you haven't said anything not jokingly, so I want some serious clarification. :)
17:28 chris cos i can see it will be a big discussion :)
17:28 kados I'd like to hear from the SAN Quest folks more ... can they get involved in writing emails to the list and joining us on IRC?
17:28 kados paul: I will !
17:28 paul please wait a minut everybody...
17:29 paul nono is a french developper from SAN. A lot of goodwill, but some lacks in english.
17:29 kados ahh ... great!
17:29 paul so he will write some lines if you let him do so ;-)
17:29 kados of course ... we'd like to get SAN as active as possible
17:29 Brooke hard to find non accented chars on a french keyboard, too :)
17:29 nono soory, for my english : i'm working for Ouest provence and it's very difficult to me to writh quickly
17:29 slef peut kados parle francais?
17:30 kados non
17:30 paul (not really slef ;-) )
17:30 slef domage
17:30 kados my french is quite bad
17:30 slef ni povas paroli esperante
17:30 Nick (don't anyone ask me, either, je parle francais comme un allemande)
17:30 Nick (or so I'm told)
17:31 Brooke Ego loquo latina :)
17:31 paul (in french we say -sorry spanish- : "I speak XXX like a spanish cow", XXX being a language you don't speak)
17:31 kados I think the language barriers should not prevent us from communicating
17:31 kados at the very least, we have tools like Google to help out
17:31 chris and regula
17:31 chris :)
17:31 kados and folks who are bilingual
17:31 kados :-)
17:31 paul nono, you explain a little bit more your project ?
17:32 nono ok
17:32 Brooke see ya owen thanks
17:32 michael is good
17:32 JohnN count with me for the translations of documents al Spanish
17:32 nono we are working for
17:32 kados it sounds like Spanish, French, and English are the major languages we speak
17:32 Brooke I can't wait for spanish
17:32 slef kados: warum nicht Deutsch?
17:32 Brooke if ever there's a problem word, mail me for clarification, and I 'll give it a go
17:32 rach OK Guys, You actually have to stop for nono to talk
17:32 youbeeh Sprechen sie deutch?
17:33 kados right
17:33 rach it is distracting if you don't speak english well to see it all going by
17:33 rach and is putting him off
17:33 nono ok thanks
17:34 Brooke How about Koha in all UN languages?
17:35 youbeeh nice but need a lot of contributors to translate ...
17:35 kados right ... so slef just pointed out that I ought to mention that I can read French and Spanish slowly ... so if you can only write in those languages you can still talk to me ... just slowly ;-)
17:35 shaun Koha in whatever languages there are demands for. How many people is that?
17:36 JohnN In Latinoamerica many translations they have done itself al spanish  of the system, of way disorganized and duplicating the work, identify around 7 lybrari,s university using KOHA.  
17:36 shedges can we all read it if nono writes in French?
17:36 rach Nono - this is a bit hard for you I'm sure - would you mind doing us an e-mail in your own time
17:36 JYL57 nono I propose that you say your projects in French and the french team here (paul, hdl, ... and me! will translate it OK ?!
17:36 rach excellent idea :-)
17:36 paul yep !
17:37 nono ok thanks
17:37 paul (only 1 translator : i'll do translation)
17:37 hdl ok.
17:37 paul (otherwise, you will get 3 lines !)
17:37 paul nono, on t'écoute...
17:38 paul ;-)
17:38 paul (ok, i let you translating. I already wrote too much here !)
17:38 nono je travailles pour un reseau de mediatheque : 6 bibliotheques en reseau
17:38 paul (JYL57 is now our french => english translator for this meeting !)
17:39 hdl I do.
17:39 slef <nono> I work for a mediatheque network. 6 libraries in the network.
17:39 slef paul: general advice is to translate *into* your native language, unless there's a special reason.
17:40 nono je fais partit d'une equipe de 3 developpeurs qui auront pour tache d'adapter koha aux besoins (tres nombreus de la mediatheque)
17:40 slef <nono> I am part of a team of three developers who have the task of adapting koha to our needs (very many of the mediatheque)
17:41 nono nous sommes aidés par une entrprise privée (Ineo) qui mettra aussi a dispostion des developpeurs afin de nous aider a developper aussi
17:42 slef <nono> we are helped by a private enterprise (Ineo) who also put developers at our disposal to help us become developers too
17:42 slef (I think)
17:42 paul (to help us developping too)
17:43 nono actuellement, nous sommes en train de nous acclimater a koha, au millieu de l'open-source, du perl ..... ce qui fait qu'actuellemnt nous ne sommes pas tres present dans le milieu des developpeurs de koha
17:44 slef <nono> Currently, we are getting used to koha, in the mix of free software, of perl... that means that currently we aren't very active among koha developers
17:45 slef (now, that should flag translator bias for everyone ;-) )
17:45 paul kudos to slef, this translation was hare...
17:45 kados hehe
17:45 paul s/e/d/
17:45 gavin i've gotta hit the hay. hopefully talk to some of you on the dev list in the near future.
17:45 slef gavin: bye
17:46 rach nono what is your timeframe for your project?
17:46 kados or at least hopes for one ;-)
17:46 paul (nono : le planning pour le san)
17:47 nono we must finish our project for the 01/01/2006
17:47 rach an auspicious day
17:47 nono not for an administration in france
17:48 paul they already are on the way with migrating their datas (i helped them for the beginning)
17:48 shaun [OT] how does that fit in with any ideas kados has for 2.4 timeframe?
17:49 paul (not [OT] at all !!!)
17:49 paul ([OT] meaning  Off Topic, Hors Sujet)
17:50 chris i think that we will need to give kados some time to think about that
17:50 chris and he will need to talk more to find out what features are needed etc
17:50 paul nono, is that all for you ?
17:51 hdl Et les fonctionnalités ?
17:51 hdl What about the features required ?
17:51 slef <hdl> and functionalities?
17:51 kados I think we should try to work together and make SAN's KOha fit within KOha 2.4
17:51 chris that might be better in an email?
17:51 slef fine, suit self ;-)
17:51 paul I can give some ideas on this
17:51 chris to the devel list?
17:51 kados but in order to do that we will need to compare notes
17:51 paul SAN want for example :
17:51 paul * search history in OPAC
17:52 paul * what we called "foraging opac" 2 years before
17:52 paul ...
17:52 kados let's hold off on the specifics ... I'll try to contact SAN and get the ball rolling
17:52 paul but nothing too specific (ie : everything should be in official Koha)
17:52 kados who should I contact?
17:53 paul most of them have subscribed koha-devel.
17:53 kados is there a project manager?
17:53 paul nono, should kados/joshua send you a mail ? or hélène ? or Francois laurent ?
17:53 nono bien sur
17:53 paul (francois laurent contenay, from Ineo, should be the project manager)
17:54 paul so, give you mails to kados
17:54 paul (not here, as it's logged => trapped by spam bots)
17:54 kados right
17:54 rach yes
17:54 shedges (i've got his e-mail, kados)
17:54 paul some more general explanations about Ineo & SAN...
17:54 paul Ineo is a large company, in France (60-70 employees)
17:55 paul they want to provide support for Koha for large libraries.
17:55 paul Their 1st contract is with SAN.
17:55 Nick large means....?
17:55 paul But they have answered a RFP for Angers University
17:55 paul (large means : more than 100 000€ for the project. being a real minimum)
17:56 paul they will probably answer RFP from Antilles University
17:56 Nick (thinking of the place in Africa that was looking at us for their 19 million items National collection)
17:56 paul They used to work on very large project. Like Qatar city library.
17:56 paul or Marseille Public Library
17:56 paul (Marseille being the 2nd largest city in France)
17:57 paul so, in some months, they will probably have a team dedicated to Koha.
17:57 paul Francois Laurent Contenay, that was with SAN & I in Nelsonville last month will probably be the project manager on the long term
17:57 paul that's all about Ineo & San project.
17:57 rach cool thank you paul
17:58 paul very very big news for Koha in France.
17:58 rach that is big news for Koha! let alone in france :-)
17:58 Nick bravo!
17:58 paul (and an atomic-bomb one if Angers University decides to go with Koha !)
17:58 kados yep that would be huge!
17:58 Nick nod.
17:58 Nick Academic institutions tend to be library leaders in their regions, too...
17:59 chris how big is angers university paul? how many students?
17:59 rach what you want to work on Paul, is a library in Tahiti so that we can come visit
17:59 chris :)
17:59 indradg heh
17:59 russ new caledonia
17:59 youbeeh my job is to install koha in Paris 5 Unibersity. That means that koha is appreciated
17:59 shedges Paul, what kind of support will INEO want as they learn Koha?
18:00 JYL57 chris : Angers University means 16 000 students
18:00 paul rach & chris : i've met a guy today that is in Reunion Island. He should contact you for some visits. Close from NZ than from France
18:00 paul shedges : i don't understand your question.
18:00 paul and 460 000 items
18:00 kados also, another question about INEO: will they be active on the list and in #koha communicating with the general community?
18:00 paul and almos 1 000 000 issues a year !
18:01 paul my opinion is that they plan to, but they are really surprised by OSS spirit.
18:01 shedges Paul, will they be working with you, for example?
18:01 kados I'd like to have regular conversations with the INEO team to find out what their plans are but right now I"m not sure who 'they' is
18:01 JohnN Paul your you know to Emiliano,, of Argentina, we are I aim to sign a cooperative covenant between the universities of The La Paz  AND the  UNLP,  Argentina and Bolivia Together to improve the KOHA.  
18:01 chris :-)
18:02 Nick surprised how Paul?
18:02 paul so they must change their mind & their working methods.
18:02 kados paul: right
18:02 shedges right
18:02 kados how can we help that process?
18:02 paul working with ppl without money & contract is strange...
18:02 paul shedges : they will be working with me, of course.
18:03 shaun _ 'tis midnight, i should be off in a minute
18:03 paul kados : drop a mail to francois laurend.
18:03 chris 2138673 issues for HLT
18:03 kados paul: will do
18:03 chris since koha went live
18:03 paul JohnN : really good.
18:03 JYL57 chris : just a small times factor in fact ! lol
18:04 paul ok, guys, 1AM here in france...
18:04 paul let's go to next topic ?
18:04 kados yep
18:04 rach yep - 2 topics left
18:04 shaun yeh, paul, i agree...
18:04 shaun lol
18:04 rach first is internationalisation
18:04 shaun i18n is what you mean to say. :D
18:04 JohnN good
18:05 slef At the minute, there's misc/translator and
18:05 slef which generates a gettext po file from templates
18:05 slef and puts it back again to make new/updated templates
18:05 slef if I understand it right
18:05 indradg right on the dot
18:06 slef The templates are still authored in native languages
18:06 slef Using the templates has the benefit of sort-of caching the languages your library supports
18:07 slef I'm wondering whether we could aim for templates to be authored in a language-neutral way
18:07 kados how would that work?
18:07 slef and if there's a way of supporting less-used languages directly from that and the po-file, rather than depending on what languages the admin installs.
18:08 slef kados: templates are written with the "msgstr" only and any new msgstr are told to translators
18:08 paul we could use "on fly" translating, but with our tech architecture, that's not really possible : means reading the whole po file on each page.
18:08 kados I've toyed with the idea of having a 'programmers' template
18:08 slef as I understand it... I've not translated as many templates as I hoped
18:09 slef uh, do I mean msgstr or msgid?
18:09 kados interesting
18:09 slef paul: is it possible to restructure?
18:10 paul would be OK with mod_perl
18:10 slef and would having all libraries supporting all languages seen as worth the effort?
18:10 paul as the .po file would be in memory
18:11 kados as long as it doesn't hinder performance I see it as a good thing
18:12 indradg I am wondering what kind of performance over-heads might be involved in a "on-the-fly" process
18:12 kados though I"m still not clear on the specifics of how it works
18:12 slef Other than that, what do people see as the reasons why translations seem to die away?
18:12 kados template designers don't implement the languages into their tempalte would be #1 on my list
18:13 kados koha 1.2 had like 4 or 5 language IIRC
18:13 Nick (were all of them really fully supported?)
18:13 rach 1.2 was quite simple compared to koha now
18:14 rach so perhaps overall complexity makes it harder to do?
18:14 Genji so... template files are going to have msgid's instead of actual text?
18:14 indradg i have a question here
18:14 rach And I think Koha is changing more quickly at the moment - we had a year or so of it being quite stable
18:15 rach when people had time to do the translations, and they "lasted"
18:15 slef Genji: that would be the aim, and to create a vocab for translating.
18:15 slef (vocabulary, sorry)
18:15 kados rach: right ... as folks come and fade there's no way to ensure that work lasts
18:15 slef indradg: go ahead
18:15 rach indradg - your question?
18:15 rach snap
18:16 indradg this on the fly thing may work for LATIN based scripts... but in case of complex Asian script, CSS requirements may be different (as I noted working with Bengali)
18:16 indradg right now.. with the admin-set LANG param its easy to force a new CSS
18:16 chris good point
18:16 slef ok, it seems on-the-fly isn't realistic during 2.3?
18:16 slef as I have no good answer to that one!
18:17 hdl very Good, if we²are to work with arabic folks
18:17 kados anything more on internationalization?
18:17 chris i think the problem and the advantage with html::template is
18:17 chris its very flexible
18:17 slef kados: when is 2.4.0's target date and who is translation coordinator?
18:18 indradg right now Govt of India is considering Koha for 500 schools across India...if that comes thru they will need the support  for Hindi along with EN of course  in the UI
18:18 kados slef: don't have solid answers to either of those yet
18:18 rach I think we need a volunteer for translation coordinator
18:18 kados slef: but I think a rough date is 2006-01-01
18:18 slef all, does someone with good experience of po want to volunteer?
18:18 chris that'd count me out
18:19 Genji woooo.. Koha will take the world by storm!
18:19 slef chris: if no po guru wants it, do you, then?
18:19 indradg I can volunteer... I have been a member of BN L10N project and currently the project lead for project
18:19 rach lol
18:19 indradg :)
18:19 kados :-)
18:20 Nick chris?
18:20 chris yes?
18:20 JohnN I think that each language should have a coordinator.  
18:20 Nick no, we're all saved.  I've seen Chris's spelling.
18:20 chris heh
18:20 indradg hehe
18:20 rach yes that is a good idea JohnN
18:20 slef JohnN: of course. I think this is more l10n/i18n coordinator.
18:20 kados JohnN: that sounds like a good idea
18:21 kados having one person to oversee the efforts might be a good thing
18:21 rach so we need people to co-ordinate the actual translation for each language, and then an overall co-ordinator to make sure that's happening
18:21 kados right
18:21 rach a pyramid scheme
18:21 kados I'd like to see a similar structure with template design ... but more on that later ;-)
18:21 slef I'm finished on i18n. Sorry it's been a bit fuzzy. I'd hoped to have done more beforehand.
18:22 rach or we need one person with no life who speaks 17 languages including po :-)
18:22 kados hehe
18:22 rach yes that would be the plan shaun
18:22 indradg btw... I've completed abt 70% translation (Intranet) and OPAC (complete) for Bengali (bn_IN) will be committing it in shortly... so one more lang for Koha 2.4
18:22 kados indradg: congrats!
18:22 slef is kados's monthly town hall a good aim?
18:23 shaun rach: can we arrange a time or would you like to send it out to the mailing list when you have decided?
18:23 chris i think so slef
18:23 rach It is, but we will want to have "working group" meetings as well where people can do the nity gritty discussions
18:23 kados exactly
18:23 rach and report back or something
18:23 slef yeah, sorry for drifting OT
18:23 indradg yes..  makes sense.... plus the bug triage day
18:24 rach yep
18:24 Nick randomly:
18:24 kados and each project manager, the RM and the kaitaiki (if she wants) can attend those working group meetings
18:24 Nick maybe premature, but it always comes up:
18:24 rach yep
18:24 shaun rach: yes, working group is good imo - how about using a different # to keep it organised?
18:24 Nick who has resources they can volunteer for loading test copies?
18:24 kados LibLime can host demos if that's what you're asking
18:24 Nick cool
18:25 shaun i have terabytes of space that i don't know what to do with...
18:25 rach well - having it here is good, it's logged so if you can't make it/disagree with a decision you can read back and see why people got to where they did
18:25 hdl is also volunteer
18:25 Nick ...remembering instances where we needed a copy to screenshot for documentation and never found a one running.
18:25 kados yea ... this # isn't used that much so it shouldn't interfere to have meetings happen here
18:25 kados Nick: and should be pretty stable
18:26 shaun kados: they running 2.2, i presume?
18:26 kados Nick: for version 2.2 ...
18:26 indradg i vote for #koha
18:26 Nick wonderful.
18:26 Genji k. gotta go. logging. laters.
18:26 kados cya Genjo
18:26 kados Gengi even ;-)
18:26 indradg ciao Genji
18:27 rach OK one more thing
18:27 rach Koha Website - which is horribly out of date, and lacking in polish, shine, general goodness
18:27 shedges (lots of grenn, though)
18:28 shedges green even
18:28 rach you want to make a new site shaun?
18:28 slef What happened to the webmaster suggested last time, JOOI?
18:28 rach they made some changes, but didn't make them public
18:28 russ slef - i meet with mikem, fiona and rach p
18:28 shaun I want to/would like to... ah, theres a good one "I feel it is in the interest of Koha in general to make a new website" :p
18:28 russ who were going to take over the site maintanece
18:29 russ and they made some changes
18:29 rach ah well - we all think that, I want to know if you were offering to actually do it :-)
18:29 russ but i think they have fallen off the radar
18:29 chris so what we want is new site maintainers?
18:30 russ yep
18:30 russ ok so what i have done
18:30 shaun design is my background, as i said before - I could do a whole site in a style that is consistent with the latest katipo templates or ours (Ben and I), maybe even a blog ;-)
18:30 kados it's a big job (as I've learned recently with liblime) there are graphics, text to be written, general design, etc.  Are we talking about a whole new website or just some maintennace on the current one
18:30 russ is set up a queue for hte koah website in the Katipo Request Tracker
18:30 russ if you have changes for the current website
18:30 Nick thick skin also required.
18:30 russ you can email them to
18:30 Nick zenlike patience.
18:31 shaun rach: is it on katipo servers? can you do php?
18:31 rach yes it is on the katipo servres
18:32 rach Shaun if you're keen to do a whole new site, can you do that on your own server - seperate to the current site
18:32 rach we can't just trash the current one
18:32 kados agreed
18:32 rach but I think that it does need a major overhaul, so we should do that in parallel
18:32 paul guys, it's 1:30AM here. Do you have an objection if i go to bed ?
18:32 shaun yes, but my server is the one in my conservatory, and it's on an adsl line...
18:32 chris no problem paul
18:32 chris thanks for your time
18:32 shaun jw: is there a reason for green?
18:33 kados night paul
18:33 kados thanks!
18:33 rach in the mean time the people who know stuff - send updated actual content through to us
18:33 shaun yeh, night paul, thanks
18:33 rach and we'll try and get the words sorted out
18:33 indradg g'nite paul
18:33 rach because we'll need that for a new site as well
18:33 shaun ben can probably do the wording quite well...
18:34 rach tahnk you paul
18:34 shaun got any ideas for a concept? basic stuff here...
18:34 JYL57 rach, last hint : add quickly new links section with : wiki, kohadocs , really urgent !!
18:34 rach well if ben wants to go through and send new content to the address up there that would be awesome
18:34 slef Put some constraints on (URLs stay the same, motifs the same) but redo it all to be accessible and crisp.
18:34 rach yes that counts as content for me JY
18:34 JYL57 Ok
18:34 russ JYL57 - can you email that to
18:34 shaun jw: is there a reason for green, was it just something you liked at the time?
18:34 russ and i will make sure it gets done
18:35 nono I go to bed too, and I promise, next time, I will be more "active" .
18:35 slef Also acknowledge koha-fr, koha England, and any other kohas
18:35 rach green - new, fresh etc
18:35 JYL57 russ : will try to write you a few lines...
18:35 rach expected people to change it for their own libraries
18:35 Sylvain bonne nuit paul_bed ;)
18:35 russ cool thanks
18:35 JohnN Good evening Paul ;) zzzzz
18:35 kados youbeeh: where's the actual problem happening?
18:35 shaun hmm, it isn't that fresh any more though, how long has that site been going for?
18:35 kados oops ... sorry
18:35 JYL57 leaving now ! by all
18:36 shaun bye
18:36 rach shaun, if you want to do an alternate design just go ahead and do it
18:36 shaun will do
18:36 shaun so can we go through and do an allocation of tasks for the website?
18:37 shaun I'll do the design and try to implement the blog, and make it good to accompany the 2.4 release with a similar style etc,
18:37 indradg cool
18:37 rach shaun you can give that a go
18:38 shaun I will host the testing site and then transfer it over to katipo to host it (but i don't know who gets credit for it)
18:38 kados sounds good to me
18:38 shedges shaun, would you be able to post links to koha-devel as you work?
18:38 rach I'll come clean though - if I don't like it it won't go up :-)
18:39 rach so do lots of consultation/showing what you're up to before you get heavily into coding would be my advice
18:39 shaun yes, I'll post them up
18:39 indradg rach, u rock! :)
18:39 rach even if it's just with me :-)
18:39 shaun russ, what background are you from? library science, programming design, etc?
18:39 russ project manager
18:39 russ and i did the design for the current site
18:40 rach so shaun it's a big ask to do the koha website, many of us have businesses that depend on it
18:40 russ a couple years back
18:40 rach that is not a defence of the current site, but means we'll all want a say in a new one
18:40 russ yep
18:41 kados yep ... I've had potential customers confused because the official site differs from
18:41 chris yep thats my biggest bugbear, the blatantly wrong content
18:41 indradg hey I need to ask this now... who came up with the idea of the "friendly ghost" artwork?
18:41 Nick the blobbies?
18:41 indradg yes
18:41 rach ah that would be me and rosalie - they were used to illustrate a presentation, and kinda stuck
18:41 slef There's just no way to contribute to koha world at the moment, as far as I can tell (not tried new email address yet).
18:42 rach the map slef?
18:42 russ koha world?
18:42 slef
18:42 shaun i will uproot them... unless you object, rach! :p
18:42 slef I call it koha world to distinguish from koha france and koha england
18:42 rach ah right
18:42 kados IMO the blobbies are cute but not profession al ;-)
18:42 shaun yeh, same here
18:42 russ yeah we prolly need to move on from them
18:43 rach Shaun, grab the list of people then who are interested in the website
18:43 chris if we start sending content to
18:43 shaun shout, people ^
18:43 rach and lets start a discussion via e-mail - you start it off saying what you want to do
18:43 rach and we'll all pitch in :-)
18:43 slef shaun!
18:43 chris and lets start getting the content up to date
18:43 kados sounds good to me
18:43 slef in what format is koha wanted?
18:43 slef in what format is content wanted?
18:43 chris russ?
18:44 russ um i'll take it as it comes, plain text in an email is fine
18:44 slef udiff against current source? What current source?
18:44 shaun I plan on doing a total tidy of code as well (XHTML 1.0) btw
18:44 slef oh ok
18:45 rach alright, so we have russ in charge of tidying up the current site
18:45 russ with a bit of an explanation of what is happening in behind the scenes
18:45 rach and shaun starting a project for a new site
18:45 slef russ: instructions on the web site and then email the list?
18:45 kados anything else to discuss?
18:45 russ yep - slef good idea - i'll get onto it
18:45 rach We are now at general business :-)
18:45 SylvainZZ good night/day all
18:45 shaun I feel better about doing the koha site somehow... i was working on the oo.o redesign but they are closed-minded *doesn't have polite word to put here*
18:45 rach well done all who made it this far
18:45 kados hehe
18:46 hdl night.
18:46 rach nite
18:46 kados so what exactly is 'general business'?
18:46 slef if we can get monthly again, these should get shorter and quicker
18:46 rach yes
18:46 indradg rach, this is bloody endurance test ;)
18:46 rach sorry indradg - it is a bit
18:46 indradg rach, hey j/k :)
18:46 slef shaun: I've tried to get a link for sxw2text on the oo.o site, but nyaaaaaaaaaaargh dead
18:47 slef rach: use +m for extreme cases
18:47 shaun how about purple for the site?
18:47 rach General Business is basically the opportunity for chatting about anything else needed - that didn't make it onto the agenda :-)
18:47 chris shaun i suggest you organise a website meeting
18:47 slef (moderated channel and then hand out +v to the person/people with the floor, opening it again as needed)
18:48 slef chris++
18:48 shaun heh, i laugh at the oo.o website people now... look how it turned out... urgh!
18:48 rach shaun - when we do design here we start with black and white
18:48 shaun yes, i will send a message out to the mailing list tomorrow
18:48 rach to get the style and the content correct
18:48 rach and then add colours etc
18:48 Nick important note:
18:49 Nick spelling!
18:49 Nick as in US-English vs Commonwealth.
18:49 kados Nick: good point nick
18:49 kados it would be nice if we were consistant
18:49 kados looks more professional that way
18:49 kados I don't have a preference which we pick
18:49 chris consistent ?
18:49 chris :)
18:49 kados hehe
18:49 slef consistently en_EN ;-)
18:49 shaun go for commonwealth, +1 to slef
18:50 kados well I can't spell to save my life
18:50 kados but I use spellcheck for everything but IRC
18:50 indradg lol
18:50 shaun kados: maybe you're going to die... :D
18:50 kados hehe
18:50 chris i dont mind either
18:50 shaun what do you use in nz?
18:50 chris en_EN
18:50 rach Pat used to think that the Americans liked the English spelling
18:51 chris for the most part
18:51 shaun favorite/favourite etc
18:51 kados yep
18:51 kados I think that's true
18:51 slef then again, stuff like s and z is a dispute in England anyway
18:51 chris cept when we slip maori words
18:51 kados it's elegent
18:51 chris in
18:51 slef depending whether you believe the old farts at the OED or not
18:51 shaun how about keeping maori words in <i> or <em>?
18:51 Nick could we at least shoot for consistent in the same page :)
18:51 slef kados: 4 centuries out of date!
18:52 chris thats a fair goal
18:52 kados hehe
18:52 rach :-)
18:52 Nick (...thinking of early versions of the FAQ, which blended all over the place)
18:52 chris yep
18:52 kados let's stick with en_EN for thw whole site
18:52 Nick incidental item:
18:52 shaun ok
18:52 Nick we might also try to agree on (rough) styles for technical stuff.
18:52 shaun en_GB
18:53 slef I suspect it's GE
18:53 shaun GB
18:53 Nick ie differentiated fonts/text style for snippets from apache.conf etc.
18:53 slef depends if you believe in "Britain"
18:53 Nick er httpd.conf
18:53 indradg hmmm ... LC_LOCALE=C ? ;)
18:53 kados well unless there's anything else pressing I'm gonna jet
18:53 chris yep me too
18:53 chris i gotta go test drive a car
18:54 shaun never heard of "Great England" slef...
18:54 kados have fun
18:54 rach hope you don't have to start work in an hour or so indrag, and get some leep
18:54 Nick (fear for Wellington's citizenry)
18:54 rach sleep
18:54 rach have you seen chris drive then nick?
18:54 Nick I think someone mentioned it once maybe.
18:54 Nick also, not unusual for techie types to Drive Fast.
18:54 Nick why?
18:54 chris ill have you know i was the champion of Daytona at the Fitz (student pub) when i was university
18:55 slef shaun: I know. The codes are odd, if I remember correctly.
18:55 shaun oh dear... 'tis my recital tomorrow...
18:55 chris at university
18:55 Nick ? Daytona?
18:55 shedges wow, what a meeting...
18:55 Nick that's here....
18:55 Nick wait:  arcade game?
18:56 rach yep
18:56 shedges cya, all
18:56 Nick game physics I will note different from real physics.
18:56 rach Meeting officially Done
18:56 Nick indeed.
18:56 rach Back to random chatting :-)
18:56 shaun great...
18:56 Nick also, no additional lives in real physics.
18:57 chris subaru forester
18:57 chris so a station wagon :)
18:57 indradg well ppl... will see u all later... need some shut-eye now!
18:57 shaun hehe
18:57 russ ah note very daytona like then
18:57 chris cya indradg
18:57 shaun bye
18:57 Nick oh dear.
18:57 rach poor indragd - it's 5.30am for him
18:58 Nick gnight in'
18:58 Nick g'bye all... also should go.
18:58 shaun i was up at 4:00 in the morning once on #... the next day in school was mildly amusing
18:59 shaun bye nick
18:59 Nick have fun all.
18:59 rach see ya nick
18:59 Nick good to make it, fun as always/thanx all.
18:59 Nick over and out.
19:00 shaun how many people here are still observing the meeting?
19:00 rach a few will be - our lot are all back to work, so they'll see stuff that goes by
19:00 rach mmm lunch time
19:01 youbeeh bye all. thanks for all... i'll write an email to the list hopping your help for my koha 2.2 z3950 problem.
19:01 shaun lunch time?! i don't have the energy to go upstairs to bed :\
19:01 rach well done for making to the end
19:01 slef wow, that was time wasted
19:01 slef apparently ISO country code for England is GB-ENG
19:01 shaun cya youbeeh
19:02 slef but then again, they label Wales as GB-WLS rather than CYM which I'm sure would be really popular in parts of it ;-)
19:02 rach so is there a GB-SCO for scotland?
19:02 shaun the code that people use (keyboard layouts, documentation languages etc) is en_GB, same with en_US
19:02 slef rach: GB-SCT, GB-NIR, GB-GSY, GB-JSY, GB-IOM
19:02 shaun co_CO is cornwall :D (only means anything if you live in devon, that one)
19:03 slef shaun: what no kw?
19:04 shaun that's to the outsiders... kw_KW is the internal code...
19:04 rach it's a strange wee set of islands
19:04 shaun indubitably.
19:04 slef (for those abroad, Cornish (Kernewek?) is another Celtic language)
19:05 slef hey, does Ben break out in dialect? That would be cool. Don't find much Northants online.
19:06 slef
19:07 shaun Ben is not somebody who really has an obscure accent... which i suppose means that he has the same accent as me, and he also talks using unnecessarily elongated vocabulary during rational conversation.
19:09 shaun *coughs* nerd
19:10 shaun ;-)
19:11 shaun hmm, maybe we can arrange a website meeting for this time next week... we can't satisfy everybody, as always
19:11 shaun or the same time, ie 9 GMT
19:12 shaun If nothing I say makes sense, it's because tired.
19:12 shaun *I'm* tired
19:13 shaun *embarrassed, goes to bed*
19:13 shaun night all
19:57 JohnN night all!
20:39 Genji back
21:08 tungsten h
02:27 paul hdl, bonjour. Pile au même moment !
02:27 hdl Oui.
02:27 hdl On s e voit ?
02:27 paul si tu veux.
02:27 paul ("pas connecté" ?)
02:28 hdl j'ai essayé en même temps que toi.
02:28 hdl Je rentente.
02:28 indradg good morning friends
02:29 hdl hi indradg
02:46 michael so did your french friends sleep OK?
02:46 michael your = our
02:49 hdl quite good.
02:52 paul quite not enough michael ;-)
03:05 Sylvain hi !
03:06 Sylvain ah je prends connaissance de tes updates au CVS paul, ça m'a l'air plutot cool sur les membres :)
05:50 michael night all
08:06 Sylvain paul tu es la ?
08:06 paul vivi
08:07 Sylvain une petite question que je me pose en lisant ce qui s'est dit hier soir, c'est quoi le "foraging opac" dont tu parles à propos du SAN ?
08:23 paul sylvain : c'est "opac à la yahoo"
08:23 paul par navigation dans le catalogue, pas par recherche.
08:23 Sylvain ok, opac à la yahoo ça me parle plus ;)
08:23 Sylvain comme pmb en fait ;)
08:25 paul oui. mais en mieux 8-)
08:26 Sylvain j'imagine :)
09:08 owen Hi hdl
09:13 paul (hdl, tu peux m'appeler en visio STP ?)
09:13 paul 'morning owen.
09:19 hdl hi owen
09:30 kados hi all
09:30 paul Hi boss ;-)
09:30 kados hehe
09:31 paul did you plucene script finish ? could you do some tests ?
09:31 kados yep ... that's on my list for today
09:31 kados I've got some bugs to look at first though
09:32 paul did you give a try to my item problem suggestion ?
09:32 paul (or is it on top of your list ?)
09:32 kados that's the first bug ;-)
09:32 kados actually, owen is better able to test it since he's been looking at the parameters lately
09:33 kados owen: here's what paul said yesterday to me:
09:33 kados i've a customer that had a problem that sounds similar to yours --  one subfield mapped to tab 10
09:34 kados so, he had 2 fields into tab 10 (item) and that confuses Koha
09:34 kados AND there is a bug in checkmarc says "everything OK" where it is not
09:34 kados the result was :
09:34 kados * "false items"
09:35 kados * impossible to modify correctly an item
09:36 Sylvain I've a little question if someone has an idea. Right now, I'm looking at creating a biblio from a marc record in the breeding (for acqusitions purpose) . My problem is that I can't figure how to manage the encoding of the record. When you create a biblio in Catalogue section, the marc record is decoded in buildtab and then saved when user select save but I can't figure how to get the same thing without using the tabs
09:37 Sylvain maybe not clear but if someone understands and has an idea :)
09:38 paul there is no way i'm afraid. Maybe you should just create the biblio with NEWnewbiblio.
09:38 kados paul: in MARC links, only one tag/subfield is mapped to itemnumber: 952u
09:39 Sylvain yes paul but NEWnewbiblio doesn't take the encoding in parameter afaik
09:39 kados (where is 'tab 10' in MARC links?) or am I in the wrong section?
09:39 paul right sylvain. So, no idea.
09:39 paul kados : you are looking at "mapping", you should look at "tab"
09:40 Sylvain it's what I was thinking paul, bad :(
09:40 paul select * from marc_subfield_structure where tab=10
09:40 Sylvain so it won't be for this weekI think
09:40 paul if you get 952 and something else, then you've got your problem !
09:41 paul sylvain, you should probably parse the record "manually", & recreate it after decoding.
09:41 paul (some samples to parse a MARC::Record on this page :
09:41 kados we have several 952s listed there: b, d, p, r, v, and y
09:41 paul
09:41 paul and nothing except 952 ?
09:42 kados right
09:42 paul bad news.
09:42 paul we haven't found your problems.
09:42 kados :-(
09:42 paul could you remind me what happends exactly ?
09:43 paul (sylvain : Doc/tutorial.html)
09:43 kados sure ... when an item is added the itemnumber appears in the Koha tables but not in marc_subfield_table (in 952u)
09:43 kados meaning that it is impossible to further edit that item
09:44 Sylvain I'll have a look Paul, I think parsing the record will be the solution :(
09:44 kados[…]ow_bug.cgi?id=983
09:44 paul select * from marc_subfield_structure where kohafield="items.itemnumber" says what ?
09:45 paul should say :
09:45 paul 1 line per framework.
09:45 paul tagfield = 952, tagsubfield=9, tab=-1
09:45 kados we have:
09:45 kados | 952      | u           | itemnumber   | itemnumber |          0 |         0 | items.itemnumber |   -1 |                  |                    |               | NULL    | NULL         |   NULL |  NULL |               | NULL |
09:46 paul misses some sql columns isn't it ?
09:46 kados so tagsubfield should be 9? not u?
09:46 paul no, you're right
09:46 kados looks like framework code isn't populated ...
09:46 paul (it's 9 for me, but can be anything iirc)
09:47 paul (was $u for you in 2.0.0 anyway, isn't it ?)
09:47 kados yep
09:47 owen frameworkcode is blank by default
09:48 kados paul, is something missing from this line?
09:49 paul is your frameworkcode NULL ?
09:49 paul (is it last column ?)
09:49 kados no it's blank
09:49 paul sh...
09:49 kados | tagfield | tagsubfield | liblibrarian | libopac    | repeatable | mandatory | kohafield        | tab  | authorised_value | thesaurus_category | value_builder | seealso | authtypecode | hidden | isurl | frameworkcode | link |
09:49 kados +----------+-------------+--------------+-----​-------+------------+-----------+-------------​-----+------+------------------+--------------​------+---------------+---------+-------------​-+--------+-------+---------------+------+
09:49 kados | 952      | u           | itemnumber   | itemnumber |          0 |         0 | items.itemnumber |   -1 |                  |                    |               | NULL    | NULL         |   NULL |  NULL |               | NULL |
09:50 kados ahh ... ok
09:50 paul (probably an irc copy/paste problem
09:50 kados tagsubfield = 952
09:50 kados oops
09:50 kados tagfield = 952
09:50 kados tagsubfield = u
09:50 kados liblibrarian = itemnumber
09:50 kados libopac = itemnumber
09:50 kados repeatable = 0
09:50 kados mandatory = 0
09:51 kados kohafield = items.itemnumber
09:51 kados tab = -1
09:51 kados authorized_value =
09:51 kados thesaurus_category =
09:51 kados value_builder = NULL
09:51 kados seealso = NULL
09:51 kados authtypecode = NULL
09:52 kados hidden = NULL
09:52 kados isurl =
09:52 kados frameworkcode =
09:52 kados link = NULL
09:52 paul ok, let's look at (line 1332 for me)
09:52 paul    my $item = &MARCmarc2koha( $dbh, $record,$frameworkcode );
09:53 paul the previous line builds the hash with items fields.
09:53 paul    my $bib = &MARCadditem( $dbh, $record, $item->{'biblionumber'} );
09:53 paul the previous line insert the MARC value.
09:54 paul between thos lines, you have
09:54 paul    # add itemnumber to MARC::Record before adding the item.
09:54 paul and, more important :
09:54 paul    &MARCkoha2marcOnefield( $sth, $record, "items.itemnumber", $itemnumber,$frameworkcode );
09:54 paul just after this line, add a :
09:54 paul warn "=>".$record->as_formatted;
09:54 paul & tell me if you have the itemnumber in 952u
09:55 paul also add a warn "=>".$itemnumber
09:55 paul ;
09:55 paul to be sure you have the itemnumber before adding it to the MARC::Record
09:57 Sylvain a little question : Is-it possible to configurate the framework in order to put the bibid in 001 for example ?
09:59 paul the bibid ? no, it's not in the MARC::Record
09:59 Sylvain euh, I've to see something
09:59 kados paul: looks like not
09:59 kados =>LDR
09:59 kados 952    _bAPL
09:59 kados       _dAPL
09:59 kados       _p32009900091087
09:59 kados       _r12 at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/ line 1353.
09:59 kados 329534 at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/ line 1354.
10:00 paul and $itemnumber exists ?
10:00 kados yep
10:00 kados that's this line:
10:00 kados 329534 at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/ line 1354.
10:00 paul ok, good news.
10:00 paul means you have a problem in
10:00 paul my $sth =
10:00 paul      $dbh->prepare(
10:00 paul "select tagfield,tagsubfield from marc_subfield_structure where frameworkcode=? and kohafield=?"
10:00 paul    );
10:00 paul    &MARCkoha2marcOnefield( $sth, $record, "items.itemnumber", $itemnumber,$frameworkcode );
10:02 paul go to
10:02 paul sub MARCkoha2marcOnefield {
10:02 paul add a warn "I'm here" just after
10:02 paul    if ( ( $tagfield, $tagsubfield ) = $sth->fetchrow ) {
10:03 paul (a warn "here : $tagfield / $tagsubfield"
10:03 paul should be better.
10:04 kados it doesn't show up
10:05 paul what ?
10:05 paul do a
10:05 paul warn "==> $frameworkcode,$kohafieldname" before the execute
10:06 kados ==> ,items.itemnumber
10:06 kados so frameworkcode isn't getting through for one
10:07 kados but that's NULL right?
10:08 paul should not
10:08 kados my ( $sth, $record, $kohafieldname, $value,$frameworkcode ) = @_;
10:08 kados &MARCkoha2marcOnefield( $sth, $record, "items.itemnumber", $itemnumber,$frameworkcode );
10:08 paul but it means the "select" returns nothing.
10:08 paul and it should not.
10:09 paul try the select manually
10:09 paul select tagfield,tagsubfield from marc_subfield_structure where frameworkcode=? and kohafield=?"
10:10 kados what is a value for kohafield?
10:10 kados ERROR 1064: You have an error in your SQL syntax.  Check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near 'and kohafield=' at line 1
10:11 kados when I leave both blank I get that error
10:12 kados so the problem must be that sql eh?
10:12 paul not blank, don't forget the ''
10:12 paul select tagfield,tagsubfield from marc_subfield_structure where frameworkcode='' and kohafield='items.itemnumber'
10:12 kados I see ...
10:12 kados 432 rows
10:12 paul 432 rows ? is it a joke ?
10:12 kados nope
10:12 kados here are some:
10:13 kados | 856      | w           |
10:13 kados | 856      | x           |
10:13 kados | 856      | y           |
10:13 kados | 856      | z           |
10:13 kados | 490      | a           |
10:13 paul with kohafield='items.itemnumber' at the end of the sql request ?
10:13 kados ahh ... nope
10:13 kados just 952 u
10:13 paul ah... i prefer.
10:13 paul but we still don't have our culprit...
10:14 paul you have put the "warn" after
10:15 paul    if ( ( $tagfield, $tagsubfield ) = $sth->fetchrow ) {
10:15 paul and not after
10:15 paul        if ( $record->field($tagfield) ) {
10:15 paul (in sub MARCkoha2marcOnefield {)
10:16 kados it does not show up in either case
10:17 paul mmm... look for an sql error ?
10:17 paul (just after the execute()
10:17 kados well here's the problem
10:17 kados   my $tagfield;
10:17 kados    my $tagsubfield;
10:17 kados if ( ( $tagfield, $tagsubfield ) = $sth->fetchrow )
10:17 kados tagfield and tagsubfield are empty
10:18 kados why would they = that sql row?
10:18 paul yes, after the fetchrow
10:19 kados ahh ... it's not == ... so it's just checking we have dbh
10:19 paul (they are filled byt the $sth->fetchrow, and if not, nothing has been found, we have an error that we should trap)
10:19 kados I get it now
10:20 kados so we need a || die errstr?
10:20 kados I'm not sure of the syntax to get the mysql error
10:20 paul die errstr is maybe a little bit too hare.
10:20 paul hard
10:20 paul but we could.
10:20 paul die $dbh->errstr()
10:21 paul or just a } else {
10:21 paul warn "error in sub blabla : ".$dbh->errstr
10:21 paul ]
10:21 paul }
10:21 paul on line 1018
10:21 kados Global symbol "$dbh" requires explicit package name at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/ line 1008.
10:24 paul $sth->errstr()
10:25 kados strange :
10:25 kados error in sub blabla :  at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/ line 1025.
10:26 paul so, no errors as expected.
10:26 paul but no results anyway...
10:27 paul 10€ that the problem is in the framework content.
10:27 paul try a $frameworkcode='' just after the my () = @_;
10:27 paul and tell me if it works better.
10:27 paul (filling the frameworkcode with a correct value manually)
10:28 Sylvain bye all !
10:30 kados yay! it worked
10:31 kados so all of your libraries have frameworkcodes setup?
10:31 kados and that's why it isn't happening to you?
10:31 kados when there is no frameworkcode the problem happens ... should I update the bug report?
10:33 paul nope
10:33 paul frameworkcode must me not null
10:33 paul & set to ''
10:34 paul for a reason i don't understand clearly, i think you have frameworkcode set to null
10:36 kados I know why
10:36 kados (I think)
10:36 kados you told me to run:
10:36 kados update marc_tag_structure set frameworkcode=''
10:37 kados update marc_subfield_structure set frameworkcode='';
10:37 kados after our upgrade
10:37 kados (after updatedatabase)
10:37 kados but maybe there is also another place to run this?
10:40 kados (which frameworkcode needs to be set to '' ?)
10:40 paul (sorry kados, but i' had a deconnection)
10:40 kados marc_tag_structure and marc_subfield_structure both have no null frameworkcodes
10:40 kados no problem ;-)
10:40 paul (did i miss something you wrote ?)
10:41 kados after our upgrade (after running updatedatabase) I had to run
10:41 kados update marc_tag_structure set frameworkcode=''
10:41 kados update marc_subfield_structure set frameworkcode='';
10:41 kados is there another one to run?
10:41 paul nope
10:41 kados select * from marc_tag_structure where frameworkcode is null limit 0,20;
10:41 kados Empty set (0.04 sec)
10:41 paul insert a
10:41 kados select * from marc_subfield_structure where frameworkcode is null limit 0,20;
10:41 kados Empty set (0.01 sec)
10:42 paul warn " =$frameworkcode=";
10:42 paul (to see if it has a space in it)
10:42 paul (after the ()=@_;
10:42 kados ok
10:43 kados == at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/ line 1002.
10:43 kados no space
10:45 paul warn "UNDEFINED" unless defined $frameworkcode;
10:45 paul is UNDEFINED shown ?
10:47 kados yes
10:47 kados my $frameworkcode=MARCfind_fr​ameworkcode($dbh,$bibid);
10:48 kados this is in Newnewitem
10:49 kados select frameworkcode from marc_biblio where bibid=?
10:49 kados that's the wrong query right?
10:49 kados select frameworkcode from marc_biblio limit 0,20;
10:49 kados | NULL          |
10:49 kados | NULL          |
10:49 kados | NULL          |
10:49 kados | NULL          |
10:49 kados | NULL        
10:50 kados SO ... I DO need to run another update
10:50 kados to marc_biblio, right?
10:50 kados update marc_biblio set frameworkcode='';
10:50 kados ??
10:51 kados select count(*) from marc_biblio where frameworkcode is not null;
10:51 kados 2097
10:51 kados select count(*) from marc_biblio where frameworkcode is null;
10:52 kados 144813
10:52 kados the 'not null' are blank
10:52 kados paul ?
10:59 slef ooh, I'm still here
11:02 paul kados, sorry, i was away for a minut.
11:02 paul you're right. You must not have a NULL frameworkcode anywhere
11:03 paul so "update marc_biblio set frameworkcode='' where frameworkcode is null" should do the job
11:03 paul and maybe a change in DB structure
11:03 paul to have frameworkcode not null default ''
11:04 kados ok ... should I do a change in the DB structure for marc_subfield_table and marc_subfield_structure too?
11:04 paul you should have done this before I think.
11:04 paul but if you don't, you can ;-)
11:04 kados nope ... because I never understood the syntax ...
11:04 paul you should have a phpmyadmin setup
11:05 paul as it's really user friendly
11:07 kados alter table marc_subfield_table set frameworkcode='';
11:07 kados is that right?
11:08 paul nope.
11:08 paul alter table marc_subfield_table set frameworkcode not NULL default '';
11:08 paul (not sure)
11:09 kados ok ... thanks
11:09 paul kados, is in CVS uptodate.
11:09 paul i've some problems with it with an UNIMARC DB
11:09 kados yea ... I suspect the leader
11:09 kados you need to manually fill the leader I think
11:10 kados I'm not sure if the one in CVS is the latest ... I'll check on that
11:10 paul what is your filling ?
11:10 kados[…]/2004/002694.html
11:16 kados owen: you there?
11:16 owen Yes
11:16 kados we need to find all the null frameworkcodes
11:16 kados change them to ''
11:17 kados then update all the defaults to be '' for the table definition
11:17 owen update marc_subfield_table set frameworkcode = '' where frameworkcode IS NULL?
11:18 kados right ... but that doesn't handle the defaults right?
11:18 kados it's default NULL for some reason
11:18 owen so we need to alter the table as well
11:18 kados right
11:19 kados strange ... marc_subfield_table does't even have a frameworkcode
11:19 owen No, I must be wrong about where it is
11:19 owen it's in marc_tag_structure
11:20 kados and marc_subfield_structure
11:20 kados and marc_biblio
11:20 kados anywhere else?
11:20 owen This is what phpMyAdmin suggests: ALTER TABLE `marc_tag_structure` CHANGE `frameworkcode` `frameworkcode` CHAR( 4 ) NOT NULL
11:20 kados ok ... I'll try that on 101
11:21 kados seems to have run ok
11:24 kados strange ... on 101 edit items isn't working for me anymore
11:26 kados I can't delete items either
11:27 kados ahh ... just the ones that were added before the fix was applied
11:28 kados cool ... everything seems to be working now
11:28 kados I'm going to run this on production
11:29 owen Great
11:30 kados owen: do you know of any other places where there is a frameworkcode?
11:32 owen I'm flipping through the tables on phpMyAdmin and I don't see it anywhere else
11:35 kados cool
11:35 kados ok ... I'm gonna grab a bite to eat and then crack this renew/reserve bug

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