Time Nick Message 14:09 JYL57 hello 14:17 owen Hi kados, JYL57 14:17 JYL57 hello owen 14:24 owen kados: what'd you think of rachel's search suggestions? 14:58 Sylvain hi all ! 14:58 Sylvain many ppl there :) 14:58 JYL57 Hello Sylvain 14:58 owen Hi Sylvain 15:00 JYL57 Sylvain, I read the IRC log to discover that member creation didn't update "creation date" or something like that ?! 15:00 JYL57 Can you confirm/explain ? 15:00 Sylvain in fact when you create a member, its expiry date isn't set 15:00 Sylvain but Paul told me this afternoon (for us) that he had fixed it 15:01 Sylvain one other pb with members is that no account line is created for the fee when you create a member 15:02 Sylvain and I also think that there's no notification when the expiry date of a user has passed ... 15:02 JYL57 I have more than 250 members now. Any timestamp available to determine when they became member ?! 15:02 Sylvain on the members info page, there's a line like ", expiry " 15:02 Sylvain where you should have join date and expiry date 15:03 Sylvain but in reality, it remains blank 15:03 Sylvain yes, you should write a script to update it with first issue, sure 15:03 JYL57 Ok but the "join date" is stored so ?! 15:03 owen Sylvain, it should be possible to write a script that checks the expiration date of users and then...does something. You could put it in cron and run it regularly. But then the question is, what do you do with expired users? 15:04 owen There isn't any built-in status to flag a user as expired. 15:04 Sylvain owen, you at least write on circulation screen that the user account has expired 15:04 Sylvain then the librarian does what he wants 15:04 Sylvain but he knows it 15:04 owen True...so you'd either have to set some kind of flag in the patron record, or just do the expiration check every time you loaded a patron record. 15:04 Sylvain it's remark a customer made to me and I think he's right, it's a problem not to see clearly the member has 'expired' 15:05 Sylvain yes, when you load user infos, I think it should be possible to check the date and write if needed 15:05 owen It's one of those aspects of Koha that have the potential of being useful but hasn't been expanded upon. 15:05 Sylvain I think I'll go further because it seems to be a real problem to our customer 15:06 owen welcome, shaun 15:06 shaun hi owen, all 15:08 christian Good afternoon to all. 15:15 rach hello 15:17 shaun hi all, i'll be back at GMT 8:50, going to get some work done before the meeting 15:17 JohnN hello 15:17 slef hihi 15:18 kados hi slef 15:18 slef Are we all enjoying the Eurovision semi-final? 15:22 owen If I could be enjoying anything besides work, it would probably be a nap! 15:23 kados :-) little one keeping you up again? 15:23 owen Not this time. It was George Lucas. 15:23 kados ahh ... how was it? 15:24 owen It was a lot of fun. 15:27 slef (BBC3/NDR/SLO2 and all good national broadcasters) 15:38 slef Hello Ben. 15:38 Ben hi slef.. 15:38 Ben sorry I'm late: I wasn't sure of the time, and Dead Ringers (satirical comedy show) was on. 15:38 owen We're not starting for another 20 minutes or so 15:39 Ben ah. 15:39 slef Ben: UTC not BST. 15:39 Ben I got the time right, then - :P to shaun 15:39 slef Ben: Eurovision on BBC 3 15:40 Ben I don't have freeview; plus, the only decent music ever on Eurovision was ABBA in the late 70s 15:41 Ben lol 15:41 slef 70 quid on Monday from www.lidl.co.uk 15:42 slef if you're interested in going digital 15:42 Ben # 15:42 Ben I already have sky digital, but the telly connected to it is displaying something decent atm 15:43 slef ah, I prefer to avoid Murdoch and remember Hillsborough 15:43 JohnN the theme is interesting 15:43 Ben oh yes.. and as a resident of a deep Cornish valley, freeview is not yet available to me, despite the analogue transmitters being turned off soonish 15:43 JohnN Which is the objective? 15:44 slef I plan to replace the satsys with a PVR, but everything else gets done first ;-) 15:44 slef JohnN: of what? 15:44 slef hi alaurin 15:44 Ben hmm.. E4 is coming to freeview soon 15:44 alaurin hi 15:44 Ben http://www.freeview.co.uk/cgi-bin/postcode/postcodesearch?postcode=pl22+0ab 15:45 slef Ben: not got full freeview/DTT here without new aerials, amplifiers and so on. Cheaper to get satellite. Not even got clear national FM or AM station reception, though. :-/ 15:46 Ben mmm. 15:47 Ben however, satellite connections are expensive, and I really hate flicking through close to 500 channels I don't have to get something interesting.. most of the time I just watch the BBC channels or C4 (no Five here either) 15:47 shaun hi ben, everyone else, i'm back. 15:47 Ben hi shaun.. 15:47 Ben told you it was 10pm 15:47 slef erm, hello ki11er? 15:47 slef wb shaun 15:48 JohnN is my first experience in the IRC 15:48 michael opps forgot about that 15:48 slef Ben: expensive 15:48 shaun (slef: what does wb mean?) 15:48 Ben welcome back 15:48 slef JohnN: ah, right. We're waiting a few minutes until the meeting starts, then it will proceed something like a real-space meeting. 15:48 slef shaun: welcome back 15:49 Ben 10 mins left yet, slef 15:49 slef I don't use many, but I'm lazy on the socialities. 15:49 shaun ah, *nitmf.toflas* ;-) 15:50 shaun what's a LART? 15:50 slef go look it up on foldoc.org 15:51 shaun ah... lol 15:51 JohnN thanks :slef 15:53 indradg 5 more minutes to go... damned mosquitoes eating me up alive! 15:53 slef indradg: napalm? 15:53 indradg slef, lol 15:54 shaun second. most. useful. dictionary. ever. after http://www.4rthur.com/dict.php that is 15:55 indradg slef, palletize allethrin 15:56 shaun slef: would that be firefox? i use dict.die.net for all my "serious" word searching... 15:57 slef yay, terry wogan is answering the phone votes 15:57 slef shaun: it's a firefox-based browser. 15:57 slef hello tholbroo 15:58 tholbroo good afternoon 15:59 Ben slef, netscape 8? 15:59 slef Ben: no, just a local mod of firefox to make it free ;-) 15:59 Ben it IS free 15:59 shaun not as in freedom. 16:00 Ben why is it not free as in freedom? 16:00 slef shaun++ 16:00 shaun ooh, it's just flicked over to 9PM GMT - *itching to start* 16:00 slef as in free software. Firefox as shipped contains uneditable artwork, trademarks and settings 16:00 slef Uh, is kaitiaki here? 16:00 rach just sat down 16:01 Ben slef, 1.1 has greatly expanded GUI settings changers, and I don't see the problem with copyrighted artwork... 16:01 rach yes, although he's saying paul lunch, which is a bit of a long lunch really 16:01 Ben ah well. 16:01 slef hello J_Holm 16:01 J_Holm hi 16:01 owen How 'bout chris? 16:01 shaun slef: which settings are you talking about? i know about the artwork, i have had a dilemma over that myself, but not sure about settings 16:01 chris im here 16:01 rach yep he's here 16:01 slef rach: French restaurants :) 16:02 indradg heh 16:02 rach :-) 16:02 shaun hehe 16:02 Ben lol 16:02 Ben (not literally) 16:02 shaun stop lolling ben, this is irc, we're serious and talking about koha. 16:03 slef shaun: Google search. Talk after, if you want. 16:03 rach they are pouring into the back rows now :-) 16:03 Ben no we're not. 16:03 slef I'm pouring into the beer glass. :_) 16:04 mishadoko hi everyone ;-) someone steal my name here -:)) 16:04 kados Ben: well ... it worked last time ;-) 16:04 Ben kados.. how?? 16:04 michael mishadoko: me did 16:05 michael :-) 16:05 mishadoko i'm joking but there is 2 michael this time :-) 16:05 kados Ben: I guess some folks are more likely to check email than IRC ... 16:05 kados Ben: regularly 16:05 slef I'd phone paul, but I don't know if his number follows him at night. 16:05 michael I thought my normal IRC name wouldn't go down to well 16:05 rach So where is everyone from - I suspect that indradg gets the commitment award for getting up in the middle of the night? 16:05 Ben well, if he's signed in to IRC, he should notice 16:05 JohnN ;-) welcome to all 16:06 shaun nvm ben, paul's a very clever person. i get emails before i get things over msn, but maybe that's msn :\ 16:06 Ben shaun and I are from the UK, and it's six minutes past 22 16:06 michael rach: me from here in WGTN (Trentham to be exact) 16:06 shaun slef: where abouts? 16:07 slef shaun: from Northamptonshire, living in Norfolk 16:07 rach hey here he is :-) 16:07 hdl hi paul 16:07 shaun hi paul 16:07 Ben slef, I originated from rushden 16:07 Ben hi paul 16:07 JohnN hi paul :) 16:07 rach Hokay, welcome everyone for our first big Koha meeting in 2005 16:08 Dweezil hi from Dublin, Ireland 16:08 slef Ben, Towcester 16:08 paul paul, Marseille, France 16:08 Dweezil oops Gavin, Dublin, Ireland (silly nickname) 16:08 nono arnaud,Istres,france 16:08 slef uh, I was talking to Ben. My name isn't Ben. 16:08 mishadoko hi [bonsoir] paul ;-) 16:08 kados Joshua, Ohio US (Nelsonville PL and LibLime) 16:09 indradg hi... Indranil from Calcutta, India 16:09 J_Holm I'm from Grand Rapids, MI, USA 16:09 mishadoko Michaël, Hauts-de-Seine, France 16:09 chris Island bay, wellington, new zealand 16:09 JohnN welcome ross! 16:09 Ben oh.. so that's where calcutta is 16:09 slef Can someone stick the log URL on the end of the channel topic, please? 16:09 russ russ, katipod, wellington nz 16:10 michael yeh we have 4 people in WGTN 16:10 rach rachel - wellington NZ 16:10 shedges stephen, ohio usa 16:10 rach si is simon here in wellington 16:10 JYL57 JYL57, Jean-Yves France 16:11 rach that looks like most of us 16:11 Ben so, em, who'll open the meeting? 16:11 rach me 16:11 Ben ok 16:12 rach We have an agenda for today - and we're a big group so if you want to have side coversations just make yourselves a seperate channel 16:12 rach is probalby easier 16:12 paul hi/salut Sylvain. Just beginning. 16:12 rach First up welcome everyone, it's nice to see so many names, and from a nice wide range or places 16:13 Sylvain great paul 16:13 rach It's been a good year for Koha I believe, with a new version, and new libraries picking it up 16:13 slef I'll continue greeting people in msg, just so people know. 16:13 rach cool thanks slef :-) 16:14 rach as the software gets more mature we have some interesting new challenges to face' 16:14 rob oxford, oh...just being nosey.... 16:14 rach and it's great to see such a lot of people interested in the project, I'm hoping we might get some more volunteers 16:14 rach and a bit more division of labour 16:15 rach I'm aware that Paul had the lions share of effort for V2.2 16:15 Ben *light, scattered applause for paul* 16:15 rach and with a new version we get lots of great ideas, and it would be useful to put our heads together as to how we might usefully spread the load a bit 16:16 paul yes, and /me will be very happy to let someone else go to 2.4 (or maybe 3.0). It's time for Koha to have new ideas & new Release Manager ;-) 16:16 rach So maybe paul could you do a quick recap now on where 2.2 is at - are you basically installing and bugsquashing? 16:17 rach ben I've sent you what I've got I believe 16:17 slef JYL57: Linux-kernel-style numbering. 2.3 will be the developer edition. 16:17 Ben I think we're naming it in the same fashion as the linux kernel 16:17 paul JYL57 : we have the same numbers as linux kernel : 2.3 means = unstable 16:17 paul rach, OK for the recap 16:17 shaun ben: off irc, i'll send you it. 16:17 Ben rach, so you only have a png 16:17 Ben thanks shaun 16:17 paul I've installed koha 2.2 in some libraries now. 16:17 paul Still some bugs to squash & some improvements to do. 16:18 paul I already have 3-4 bugfixes for 2.2.3 & some minor improvements. 16:18 shaun http://koha.org/cgi-bin/logs.pl?recall=recall&saved_query=Meeting%20Thursday%2019th%20May%209PM%20GMT 16:18 paul do you want a list of bugfixes already done ? 16:18 paul * a bug in authorities management (selecting & reporting to biblio) 16:19 paul * a bug in borrowers joining & expiring dates 16:19 paul * some graphic improvements. 16:19 paul * a bug in issues & fine setting. 16:19 Ben when is this bug with the omnipresent Options box in transfers going to be fixed? 16:19 paul (most of them will be commited to CVS in the next hours/days) 16:19 JohnN Thanks Paul therefore effort, is of great benefit the system in Bolivia. 16:20 paul ben could you remind me what you're speaking of ? 16:20 slef Ben: got a bug number? 16:20 Sylvain bug in issues and fine is the one I was talking this afternoon paul ? 16:20 shaun ben: please stop bothering us about that, and it's messages 16:20 paul i know i've a lot of bugs in bugzilla to solve. I expect to have some time next week. 16:21 Ben erm, shaun and I have been developing new templates, as you know, but we can't get the Messages box in Transfers to go away 16:21 paul and i also have some nice ideas for a better usability. 16:21 chris im sure paul would love any help solving bugs also 16:21 paul yes chris, of course... 16:21 chris even if you cant code, you might have some ideas, feel free to annotate any bugs 16:21 paul I feel a little alone (with hdl & sylvain) on rel_2_2 branch... 16:22 owen kados and I are trying to pitch in too, paul! 16:22 kados :-) 16:22 paul yes, right, sorry to have miss you in my list. 16:22 rach who else is running 2.2 at the moment? 16:23 paul in france, i think there are no libraries still in 2.0 16:23 chris so if you want glory and a mention in the thank you notes .. fix some bugs *grin* most bugs gets a chocolate fish 16:23 paul (maybe Esiee) 16:23 Genji ahh... not late? 16:23 paul just a little late bit Genji 16:24 Genji k. 16:24 youbeeh hi everybody 16:24 chris katipo is in the process of converting a library from their existing library to koha 2.2 16:24 paul youbeeh is a frenchie, but who is it ??? (introduce yourself) 16:24 slef I have 2.2 running, but I'm not very motivated (especially not by chocolate: allergic). I think I'm waiting for 2.3 to get a direction to push at. 16:24 indradg i'm running 2.2.2 at West Bengal University of Technology Central Library, and starting on a branch library as well 16:24 Genji Long time no see, good to be back in action. 16:24 kados LibLime is running 2.2 for our demos and NPL is running 2.2 as well 16:24 youbeeh I'm a student who is trying to install koha for a project 16:25 kados youbeeh: have you seen our documentation project: kohadocs.org 16:25 kados we need to promote that more on the main Koha page IMO 16:25 youbeeh Student from Univerite Paris 5 (Paris) in Artificial Intelligence 16:25 gavin agreed on listing kohadocs.org 16:25 Sylvain I really agree with kados ... 16:26 Tom1243 wouldn't kill anyone 16:26 shaun yes, also agreeing 16:26 Tom1243 This is Brooke, BTW 16:26 youbeeh Yes, I've seen kohadocs, but i dont know anything about MARC and ISO2709. that's why i'm a little borried 16:27 rach Ok so it seems like 2.2 then has good uptake, and should have lots of happy bug hunters 16:27 Brooke MARC is not that hard to pick up on, and even if you don't know a fig about it, it's a good idea to choose it over no MARC 16:27 kados or unhappy bug hunters ;-) 16:27 rach indeed :-) 16:27 Brooke MARC has a whole lot of fields and ordinary person wouldn't add 16:27 rach brook & Youbeeh - you might want to have a private conversation about tha 16:27 Genji yup. I prefer non marc... easier to work with perl. 16:27 Brooke which means your users will be happier 16:28 rach just a reminder there are a lot of us here, some are up late, if you want to have a chat with someone, just start another channel 16:28 youbeeh yes. I've installed koha 2.2 yesterday and tried to connect to z3950 servers to retrive notice but no response 16:28 Brooke this is a koha thing, not an individual user thing. MARC is integral to the project IMO 16:29 michael Genji: rach 16:29 paul chairperson is rach 16:29 rach Me 16:29 youbeeh rach > U're right : i'll ask for private conv with brook. 16:29 shaun youbeeh: be patient, I found that problem... wait a minute and it will start searching 16:29 rach SO on to the new release 16:29 paul to finish with 2.2 : 16:29 youbeeh thnks 16:29 paul I think i'll release a 2.2.3 in 3-4 weeks 16:30 paul maybe 2. 16:30 chris cool paul 16:30 paul then, i'll continue backporting interesting features from head to rel_2_2 & fix bugs where needed 16:30 Genji looking forward to it. Should get back into CVS, myself. 16:31 shaun slef: sorry, I didn't realise that a saved query's "now" was the time at which it was saved. 16:31 paul that's all for me with 2.2 branch? 16:31 rach excellent - we look forward to your next release :-) 16:32 rach Ok so now to the next release - and the first thing is the release manager 16:32 JohnN I am carries official voice of the system of Argentina and Bolivia UMSA and BDF UNLP 16:32 paul and the winner is ... 16:32 rach Joshua has volunteered, is there any objection? 16:32 JohnN I am carries official voice of the system of Argentina and Bolivia UMSA and BDF UNLP 16:32 shaun kados. 16:32 Sylvain no objection for me 16:33 kados I don't object ;-) 16:33 Genji I second. 16:33 rach JohnN - ? 16:33 paul no news from Ineo & no Ineo person present at the moment ? 16:33 slef I second 16:33 owen I think the position is uncontested 16:33 hdl But maybe JohnN has sthg to say 16:33 kados michael: that's actually shedges project ;-) 16:33 michael oh 16:34 michael sorry 16:34 kados though I have written a fair share of the docs there 16:34 shedges yep 16:34 paul (n oproblems, they both are from nelsonville, Ohio ;-) ) 16:34 Brooke yep Stephen somehow finds the time to prettify my babble 16:34 paul hi stephen. 16:34 shedges hey paul 16:34 paul (anyway, i would be very happy to see joshua as RM. and i wish him lot of fun) 16:35 Nick (anyone but you, right Paul? chuckling...) 16:35 paul (i don't wish him lot of work : he will have enough without any wishes ;-) ) 16:35 kados Here's a link to some of the features I'd like to see in KOha 2.4 16:35 kados http://koha.org/cgi-bin/logs.pl?recall=recall&saved_query=Meeting%20Thursday%2019th%20May%209PM%20GMT 16:35 kados oops 16:35 kados http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=koha24rmnotes 16:35 kados the second on is the right link 16:36 Genji oh i so love having three screeens. 16:37 Ben incidentally, I can do documentation work, in accordance with the first item on that list.. 16:37 Sylvain about the projet of kados, searching improvements seems to me an important thing ... 16:37 kados Right ... that'd be great 16:37 Genji yup. my org's secretary is harping on about wanting a manual. 16:37 Nick I'll try (as usual) to pitch in. 16:38 kados In my vision of the 2.4 release process I'd like to see a 'manager' of each major section of Koha 16:38 kados not to constrain what can be done ... mainly to make sure it actually gets done 16:38 Genji is it possible to intergrate a passworded wiki into koha, as the online help? 16:38 Ben does anyone have an objection to me putting my doc work as a WikiBook? 16:39 shedges no, just share the link 16:39 Ben i.e. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Koha 16:39 shedges thanks! 16:39 Sylvain Ben, wikibook and wikimedia projects are great, I don't objet :) 16:39 Ben damned mediawiki customisation.. 16:39 rach So joshua over the next few weeks will you be calling for volunteers 16:39 kados so we need tom volunteers to fill the positions 16:40 rach and forming "groups" around the various tasks 16:40 slef Ben: I suggest writing a free software manual (GPL?) and using a more wiki-like wiki 16:40 kados I assume Stephen will be the Doc manager? 16:40 kados yep 16:40 kados I'd vote that Owen be our interface designer 16:40 shedges sure 16:40 shaun ben: it would be good if you could use something like forrest or docbook to share the documentation in other formats, and posting on www.kohadocs.org 16:40 Ben slef, I prefer mediawiki, which wiki did you have in mind? 16:40 shaun ben and slef: GFDL 16:40 Brooke I really hope that there will be a very visible link from Koha.org to kohadocs. 16:41 Nick I can cope with helping format into Docbook XML. 16:41 kados what we need badly are a QA person and some writers/blogers 16:41 Brooke I still get a lot of shock about people that couldn't find either the wiki or kohadocs 16:41 owen bloggers? 16:41 Ben shaun, as you well know, I am not going to use forrest. I am attempting in using wikibooks to find a way of easily producing this so it can be shared with others, and collaboration 16:41 Nick ...a copy to screenshot helps also. 16:41 rach we need some people talking about koha 16:41 kados well ... maybe just a single blogger 16:41 kados an official blogger or something 16:41 rach like stephens diary, but as it happened :-) 16:41 slef shaun: FDL is a pain for debian, even ignoring the other questions 16:41 kados right 16:42 kados I suppose that could fall under documentation but in my book it's more PR or advertising 16:42 slef kados: I'll blog and set up a page under Columns on www.otherwayup.org for anyone else who wants to? 16:42 Ben slef, which wiki would you have me use? 16:42 rach and I get asked for articles, but I'm not good at writing them 16:42 shaun ben: private discussion for that. 16:42 Genji bloggers are all the rage these days. 16:42 owen I like that idea, kados. Maybe we could set up a group blog on Koha.org? 16:42 kados I think with a bit more marketing we could draw in more programmers and libraries interested in getting involved 16:42 slef Ben, not sure at the minute. One which uses http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TextFormattingRules 16:42 Genji if you want to advertise it, blog it. Or slashdot it. 16:42 pate i like the blogging idea 16:42 shaun owen: i like that idea 16:43 Brooke i dunno, a blog would require fairly constant maintenance 16:43 slef owen: otherwayup is a blog aggregator. I'll call for RSS URLs in a few days, once my email settles? 16:43 kados so any volunteers for that? 16:43 kados the other major thing Koha's missing is QA 16:44 kados on problem is we don't have docs for how to do QA 16:44 Ben kados, QA is ok for me as wel 16:44 shaun if we make the blog central (i.e. somewhere on www.koha.org) and give devs access to it, I would be more than willing to contribute regularly 16:44 Ben l 16:44 chris kados: id suggest you send out an email after the meeting, with the roles you envisage 16:44 kados ok 16:44 owen slef, you mean this: http://www.otherwayup.org.uk/ ? 16:44 shaun but I doubt if other developers would be willing to maintain their own blogs. 16:44 indradg one idea... how abt a planet-koha 16:44 slef owen: yes, but with a different skin 16:45 Nick different skin? 16:45 slef shaun: I think I can set up email->blog, but I've not got one running at the minute 16:45 slef Nick: different page style 16:45 rach Ok so we have some takers for blogs - joshua write those nicks down :-) 16:45 kados :-) 16:45 indradg I help maintain planet-india.randomink.org... rss aggregator for FOSS dev blogs of Indian/indian-origin 16:45 Brooke write? People use pencils?! 16:46 kados what's a pencil? 16:46 kados :-) 16:46 paul this word means nothing in french. 16:46 shaun one of those things that you tap your pda skin with. oh no, that's a stylus. 16:46 rach I know that both Slef and I have a keen interest in the design of Koha - interface etc, so Owen I suspect you should add us to your wee list 16:46 shaun same here rach - I'm coming from design 16:46 owen Okay, and ben and shaun as well 16:46 rach and ben and shaun as well perhaps 16:47 rach snap :-) 16:47 owen Problem with you, rach, is you design stuff that no one has coded yet! ;) 16:47 Sylvain with the new screenshot, I support rach for design :) 16:47 Nick (but you push it with such style!) 16:48 slef yes, please add me to a UI list, but beware my email address will change soon 16:48 Genji owen: her designs are beautiful.. but i take a look and think.... how do you do that? Is that possible? 16:48 shaun it isn't working atm - HEAD has problems, and I will not be updating rel_2.2 as well. 16:48 kados there are a few things to think about when we're talking about design: usability, beauty, accessability, standards-compliance, etc. 16:48 rach we have html for the "look" just not the features 16:48 kados I think the ID should make sure we've got all the bases covered 16:48 Nick accessability is a big one: keep in mind for gov't supported libs in a lot of places, accessability is absolute. 16:49 Brooke exactly nick 16:49 indradg Nick, good point! 16:49 slef yes, this is a problem for me too 16:49 rach yep us to 16:49 Brooke function first, pretty is nice 16:49 russ hmm, i thought that was what templates were for 16:49 Genji also.. would be good if we could have a template that could run off a cellphone. Or a PDA. 16:49 Brooke That's why I rate DRA over Epixtech :) 16:49 kados one advantage that owen has is that he actually works the desk 16:49 paul shaun : i know there are some bugs introduced by my last cvs syn'ch. drop me a mail when you encounter one, i'll fix it asap. 16:49 russ so that you could have pretty if you wanted it 16:49 rach so that you end up with functional & pretty 16:50 shaun beauty and usability as well - i have a number of experiences where people have refused to use a product because of its look, obviously. 16:50 chris im with shaun 16:50 chris never underestimate the eye candy 16:50 kados yep 16:50 Nick ...no flaming/rotating logos!!! : ) 16:50 paul I agree with all of you about beauty, usability & accessability. 16:50 russ shaun - i agree, in my role as a project manager i see people forgive faults in stuff that looks beatiful all the time 16:50 paul just reminind another important point : 16:50 Nick *class* is a must. Not that we've ever not had it. 16:50 paul "translatability" 16:51 chris good point paul 16:51 paul (does this word exist ?) 16:51 Brooke I'm not underestimating it - i know a lot jumped on because of stephen's templates 16:51 kados good one paul 16:51 shaun Genji: I can do a PDA one quite easily - are you talking about palm or PocketPC? 16:51 Brooke but if it doesn't work at the end of the day, folks aren't going to stay 16:51 slef paul: translatabilitification? 16:51 kados Brooke: do you mean owen's templates? 16:51 shedges (owen's templates) 16:51 Brooke stephens $ ;) 16:51 shedges hehe 16:51 owen :) 16:51 Brooke Yes owen makes pretty stuff. 16:51 Genji shaun: any small size screen. think 160 x 160 is the smallest ive come across, for pda's. 16:52 rach OK - now is not the time to actaully redesign things 16:52 Nick added bonus maybe: PDA for inventory/"roving" work. 16:52 shaun I'll look into it - i have a pda which needs something to do 16:52 rach Joshua are we done for now with 2.4 - you want people to add their wishis to your page 16:52 shaun Nick: absolutely - could do a lot for inventory 16:53 kados that sound good 16:53 rach we will have specific meetings/mail stuff about features etc 16:53 Ben anyone wishing to assist me in creating the koha wikibook should do so at en.wikibooks.org/wiki/koha 16:53 kados :-) 16:53 shaun Keep presentation separate from everything else is what I say - looks make it the killer. 16:53 rach but if there is something that is your pasion, graphic design, usability, searching, acquisitioning, interfacing with other systems etc let joshua know 16:54 rach and then he can drag you in for it 16:54 Nick (also, on presentation ...let's not forget everyone is not broadband linked ...) 16:54 rach oh - QA, Testing and bugfixing - we particularly love people who like to refactor (rather than code new features) 16:54 Brooke I can make little icons with Paint :) 16:54 paul nono => the 5-6 last sentences are important for SAN ;-) 16:54 shaun a critical problem with the default 2.2 ones is the number of classes e.g. class="button circulation" 16:54 slef Ben, please put it under GPL so it can be included with koha later. 16:54 paul why ? it's "legal" ? 16:54 rach guys stop now 16:55 rach we'll be here all night otherwise 16:55 kados yep ... let's not go thee atm 16:55 kados there even ;-) 16:55 slef rach: I like to refactor, but uncommented code is often tricky to be sure about. 16:55 rach Stephen, You've been hard at work on the docs - lets move on to them 16:55 paul (thanks rach to think to frenchies : it's almost midnight for us !) 16:55 shaun i was hoping we would be... 2.4 is a major milestone ;-) 16:55 shedges I think we need some spanish translations 16:55 shedges especially the sysadmin docs 16:55 paul (& i'm already wondering if it should not be called 3.0 !) 16:56 shedges they get hit a lot 16:56 slef (so take that as a beg for good comments when you write new code!) 16:56 shedges yeah, i wonder if someone shouldn't be policing that 16:56 rach yep good point slef - documentation starts in the code :-) 16:56 Nick Anyone geek-english/spanish bilingual? 16:57 shedges JohnN? 16:57 Sylvain I really agree with comments, it's really surprising to see the small amount of comments in koha code ... 16:57 kados agreed 16:57 shedges paul, you'vr been good with your comments 16:57 shedges want to make some guidelines? 16:58 paul please ? 16:58 Ben ok.. how are we going to host this doco then? 16:58 indradg "Koha coding standards and guidelines for contributors" 16:58 Nick (wouldn't hurt to include examples with the guidelines....) 16:58 shedges yeah 16:58 slef Ben, koha.org/wiki/ if it comes back? 16:58 Brooke here's a ? 16:58 Ben slef, ok 16:59 Brooke Documentation -> More useful with pics, but where would I upload them to? 16:59 slef Ben, if not, we'll replace it, I expect ;-) 16:59 shedges that would be great 16:59 Ben it's not down 16:59 paul ok, i'll add this to my almost empty (grins) agenda... 16:59 JohnN Is the first time in the IRC, excuses by the language, my spek is Spanish 16:59 shedges Brooke: send me pics, I can add them 17:00 slef What do people think about perltidy'ing the source? 17:00 Genji perltidy? 17:00 youbeeh do you have something lake an UML design for all the project ? 17:00 paul shedges : could you explain (maybe with a mail on koha-devel) how to add a picture with xmlmind on a docbook document. 17:00 shaun koha v3 really should have something which sets it aside technically from other ILS, plus super-duper templates, and advanced (Plucene?) searching imo... that's a long way off, but I don't know what will set 2.4 apart yet... 17:00 chris i use perltidy a lot 17:00 Nick We have a UMLish thing and some nice pics. 17:00 Ben sorry, I have to go now. 17:00 Ben byee. 17:00 Nick Look at the thing @ kohadocs.org (the architectural study) 17:00 paul youbeeh : no we don't 17:00 slef Genji: perltidy is for perl like indent is for C 17:01 youbeeh ok 17:01 shedges paul, save it in gif. I'll e-mail more info 17:01 chris i think using it for koha is a good thing 17:02 Genji oohhh.. i like perltidy. got it open in the other screen. 17:02 shedges OK, goals for documentation: 17:02 shedges get some guidelines for commenting code 17:02 shedges get some spanish translations 17:02 chris you cant really have too much comments 17:03 Sylvain translate the upcoming user guide in important languages 17:03 Nick (...proofread everything, the perpetual goal of doc) 17:03 shedges shoudl we require perldoc type comments? 17:03 Nick Suggestions for important? 17:03 slef chris: I think "$s = $s + 1; # add 1 to $s" is a bit far. 17:04 slef shedges: encourage and request. Not sure we can require unless only kados may commit. 17:04 Sylvain sure slef but right now we are really far from that ... 17:04 Sylvain koha code really misses comments ... 17:04 slef Sylvain++ 17:04 Genji slef: ++$s 17:04 Nick how about some bare minimums? 17:05 paul my opinion is that the minimums are : 17:05 Nick ie, "always comment the following: SQL, etc etc"? 17:05 paul * explain what a script does at the beginning 17:05 paul * use meaningful variable names 17:05 slef Nick, care to draft something? 17:05 paul * add a comment where you are not doing a trivial thing 17:06 Nick (Paul's got the most experience reading what's there...) 17:06 Nick (defer to him, first) 17:06 gavin is there much use of regexps? sometimes it's no harm to comment those 17:06 paul ok, i'll write something, you will be able to improve it 17:06 shedges great! 17:06 chris not a huge amount, but yes you are right gavin, regexps can look like line noise 17:07 shedges may I suggest an explanation at the beginning of each function? 17:07 hdl paul sugested that too. 17:08 paul (in fact, stephen, there are 2 different things : .pl and .pm) 17:08 JohnN I can help has to do the translator in spanish. 17:08 paul (in a .pl we are supposed to have only 1 function (main)) 17:08 shedges great!! 17:08 slef shedges: I think that would be best as POD. 17:08 hdl The best would be to agree on a template for comments. 17:08 rach awesome john 17:08 paul (in .pm we are supposed to have POD !) 17:08 Nick good idea, the template. 17:08 shedges yep, and most of the old stuff does have POD 17:08 JohnN <gavin> is there much use of regexps? sometimes it's no harm to comment those 17:09 JohnN <paul> ok, i'll write something, you will be able to improve it 17:09 JohnN <shedges> great! 17:09 JohnN <chris> not a huge amount, but yes you are right gavin, regexps can look like line noise 17:09 JohnN <shedges> may I suggest an explanation at the beginning of each function? 17:09 JohnN <hdl> paul sugested that too. 17:09 JohnN <paul> (in fact, stephen, there are 2 different things : .pl and .pm) 17:09 JohnN <JohnN> I can help has to do the translator in spanish. 17:09 JohnN <paul> (in a .pl we are supposed to have only 1 function (main)) 17:09 rach eek 17:09 Genji ack, JohnN? 17:09 slef JohnN: paste error. 17:09 shedges deja vu 17:09 hdl Why not having a wiki page for comments template ? 17:09 rach yep - johns first time in IRC so we'll cut him some slack :-) 17:10 shedges (most be all the drugs in the '60s....) 17:10 youbeeh me too first time in IRC ;) 17:10 rach our only trouble with wiki's seems to be they get hacked 17:10 rach is that right? 17:10 chris spammed 17:11 chris not hacked 17:11 indradg password protect the wiki? 17:11 slef spamtrapping is a fun arms race 17:11 slef indradg: doesn't work. Also have to blacklist offending URLs. 17:11 chris but putting the password on the wiki has stopped it pretty effectiviel 17:11 chris y 17:11 Brooke yup 17:12 shedges OK, JohnN, I'm going to look to you for some translations -- I'll be in touch 17:12 Brooke unfortunately, it wipes a lot from Google :( 17:12 shedges paul, you'll start some guidelines for comments? 17:12 paul yep shedges 17:12 slef Brooke: password for edit only helps, but means you still attract spammers, as you can help their google ranks. 17:12 shedges great!! anything else for docs right now? 17:13 slef Brooke: I mean, is there's no password for viewing. 17:13 paul online help maybe ? 17:13 slef "if" not "is" 17:13 Nick Anything useful I can do Steve? 17:13 Brooke right 17:13 paul some frenchies are working on it (in french for instance) 17:13 Nick ...always available for proofing, btw, if anyone is drafting stuff. 17:13 paul they have written some onlinehelp on the wiki. 17:13 Nick Always! 17:13 Brooke Frenchies speak french?! Oh man, I have it all wrong ;) 17:13 paul still to be improved 17:13 rach oh good one paul 17:14 shedges good, the online help now is already out of date! 17:14 shedges how do we get online help from the wiki to cvs? 17:14 paul not really out of date. but uncomplete yes 17:14 paul copy paste manually ! 17:15 shedges Nick, is that something that would interest you? 17:15 Brooke it's that easy paul? 17:15 shedges Brfooke? 17:15 shedges (Brooke?) 17:15 paul easy yes. Boring, for sure ;-) 17:15 Nick Shoveling the CVS stuff? 17:15 Nick I can cope. 17:15 Nick Can't be any worse than hand tagging docbook xml 17:15 chris :) 17:15 shedges hehe 17:16 Brooke what piece of the online help would you like me to start with? Koha is a little large ;) 17:16 paul xmlmind.com is your friend Nick ! 17:16 Nick that it is. 17:16 shedges Brooke, have you got 2.2.2? 17:16 paul brooke : just use Koha & clic "Help". 17:16 Brooke had it, dropped back down to rc4, because I couldn't add biblios 17:16 paul if you see "sorry no help", then you've got a page to write ! 17:17 shedges we need to add stuff that's missing, correct a few things that have changed since 2.0 17:17 shedges IIRC, the wiki's set up pretty nicely 17:17 Nick paul: have been out of loop a bit, may call on you for pointers/what to look for. 17:17 paul (in parameters & new features in 2.2, everything should be writen & uptodate) 17:18 Brooke how about I start with the borrower fine screen? 17:18 paul in older sections, there is usually nothing 17:18 paul for example, in member section 17:18 rach start at a bit you understand brooke :-) 17:18 JohnN count with me for the translations of documents al Spanish 17:18 rach thank you john 17:19 shedges great? I'd choose one of the install docs to start with 17:19 Nick Will make CVS sync'ing part of my "weekly or so" routine. 17:19 paul Brroke : ok for borrower fine screen. 17:19 Nick Steve.... one of the things that is definitely "not fresh" is a FAQ. 17:19 paul ... is manual installation of Koha 17:19 shedges JohnN, 'Install Koha on Fedora" gets the most hits 17:20 chris yep the FAQ needs a complete rewrite 17:20 Nick tried to restart that awhile back, fingers froze up trying to shuttle stuff from the mail-lists into wiki while making sense of answers. 17:20 shedges Where is that old FAQ, Nick? 17:20 chris amd we should just kill the quick start installation guide 17:20 Nick (will dredge it up... you want the wiki attempt, or the Really Old One?) 17:21 chris it worked fine for 1.0.2 ... but that was a long time ago 17:21 rach http://www.koha.org/faq/\ 17:21 rach that one? 17:21 chris thats the really old one 17:21 rach it is really old 17:21 chris without the \ 17:21 chris :_ 17:21 kados IMO koha.org should have a 'documentation' link on the left-hand side that links to kohadocs.org 17:21 shedges wiki attempt sounds interesting, Nick 17:21 Brooke i concur 17:21 chris theres a lot that should be done to koha.org 17:21 rach we have "website" as item 9 on the agenda :-) 17:21 youbeeh right : newbees like me always need FAQ 17:21 paul (i've plan to add such a link in koha-fr.org) 17:21 kados rach: sorry ;-) 17:21 Nick There is a fresher, XML'd one in the stuff I've got. 17:21 Nick the wiki is ... hangon... 17:22 shaun Ben has told me to suggest that the website needs updating... what number are we on now? ;-) 17:22 rach so if we're kinda done with documentation.... or at least got to a level of detail that we should probalby more on? 17:22 rach more = move 17:22 chris good idea rach 17:22 slef rach: what item are we on now? 17:22 Nick http://www.saas.nsw.edu.au/koha_wiki/index.php?page=FAQ 17:22 rach we are on number 5 17:22 slef cool, that's what I thought 17:23 rach 6 - volunteers needed 17:23 paul only 1 answer : always ;-) 17:23 Brooke hooray 17:23 rach have we mostly covered that already? 17:23 paul number 7 now ? 17:23 rach 7 - How to get new features into Koha 17:23 Genji think im motivated back into koha, thanks all 17:24 owen Step One: Don't file an enhancement bug. 17:24 Nick ditto, Genji, ditto. 17:24 rach So Joshua, Paul, Chris as our various release managers, it would be good to hear from you guys, what others can do to get new features into koha 17:25 chris just do it 17:25 chris before the feature freeze 17:25 chris :) 17:25 paul my opinion on this is that the release manager should : 17:25 kados yep 17:25 rach and if you're not a coder? 17:25 paul * ask what we should add 17:25 chris find someone who is 17:25 rach find one and convince them to? 17:25 paul * when do we plan to release ? 17:25 chris and bribe them too 17:25 paul * who can say "i'll do it" 17:25 kados find one and pay them ;-) 17:25 owen Yeah, I think bribing is the important step. 17:26 owen I don't think we have many Koha coders sitting around looking for something to do. 17:26 paul we have a lot of new features that will come from SAN Ouest Provence. 17:26 kados paul: yep ... I plan to do that 17:26 kados that's great 17:26 slef Careful, I get flamed for suggesting that I can be bribed, IIRC 17:26 paul I think nono should write some line now here. 17:26 Nick Incidentally (call it new business). 17:26 shaun what is the status with the argentinian code, paul? 17:26 kados I wish they would be more visible 17:26 nono i'm here 17:26 paul nothing new ... 17:26 kados I'm the last one to talk to Emiliano 17:26 Nick Is there an official Bribery Vehicle? 17:26 Brooke what does joshua think seeing as he's the head release d00d now... 17:27 Nick I'm semi serious. 17:27 kados he's sending me a tgz file with everything and I"m going to try to weed through it ;-) 17:27 shaun that's where most of the code that we (in school) are interested in should be coming from - the argentinian stuff 17:27 paul (you should explain what are SAN plans nono : timeline, ressources & maybe some features) 17:27 owen kados: ouch. 17:27 kados yep ... well it's better than not having it at all 17:27 slef Nick: in what sense? 17:28 rach are you wanting to know if people can donate to the koha cause? 17:28 chris shall we put that one in general business 17:28 Nick Bingo, Rach. 17:28 paul kados : feel free to share some code with me & hdl if you feel overwhelmed. 17:28 Brooke yes, but you haven't said anything not jokingly, so I want some serious clarification. :) 17:28 chris cos i can see it will be a big discussion :) 17:28 kados I'd like to hear from the SAN Quest folks more ... can they get involved in writing emails to the list and joining us on IRC? 17:28 kados paul: I will ! 17:28 paul please wait a minut everybody... 17:29 paul nono is a french developper from SAN. A lot of goodwill, but some lacks in english. 17:29 kados ahh ... great! 17:29 paul so he will write some lines if you let him do so ;-) 17:29 kados of course ... we'd like to get SAN as active as possible 17:29 Brooke hard to find non accented chars on a french keyboard, too :) 17:29 nono soory, for my english : i'm working for Ouest provence and it's very difficult to me to writh quickly 17:29 slef peut kados parle francais? 17:30 kados non 17:30 paul (not really slef ;-) ) 17:30 slef domage 17:30 kados my french is quite bad 17:30 slef ni povas paroli esperante 17:30 Nick (don't anyone ask me, either, je parle francais comme un allemande) 17:30 Nick (or so I'm told) 17:31 Brooke Ego loquo latina :) 17:31 paul (in french we say -sorry spanish- : "I speak XXX like a spanish cow", XXX being a language you don't speak) 17:31 kados I think the language barriers should not prevent us from communicating 17:31 kados at the very least, we have tools like Google to help out 17:31 chris and regula 17:31 chris :) 17:31 kados and folks who are bilingual 17:31 kados :-) 17:31 paul nono, you explain a little bit more your project ? 17:32 nono ok 17:32 Brooke see ya owen thanks 17:32 michael babelfish.altavista.com is good 17:32 JohnN count with me for the translations of documents al Spanish 17:32 nono we are working for 17:32 kados it sounds like Spanish, French, and English are the major languages we speak 17:32 Brooke I can't wait for spanish 17:32 slef kados: warum nicht Deutsch? 17:32 Brooke if ever there's a problem word, mail me for clarification, and I 'll give it a go 17:32 rach OK Guys, You actually have to stop for nono to talk 17:32 youbeeh Sprechen sie deutch? 17:33 kados right 17:33 rach it is distracting if you don't speak english well to see it all going by 17:33 rach and is putting him off 17:33 nono ok thanks 17:34 Brooke How about Koha in all UN languages? 17:35 youbeeh nice but need a lot of contributors to translate ... 17:35 kados right ... so slef just pointed out that I ought to mention that I can read French and Spanish slowly ... so if you can only write in those languages you can still talk to me ... just slowly ;-) 17:35 shaun Koha in whatever languages there are demands for. How many people is that? 17:36 JohnN In Latinoamerica many translations they have done itself al spanish of the system, of way disorganized and duplicating the work, identify around 7 lybrari,s university using KOHA. 17:36 shedges can we all read it if nono writes in French? 17:36 rach Nono - this is a bit hard for you I'm sure - would you mind doing us an e-mail in your own time 17:36 JYL57 nono I propose that you say your projects in French and the french team here (paul, hdl, ... and me! will translate it OK ?! 17:36 rach excellent idea :-) 17:36 paul yep ! 17:37 nono ok thanks 17:37 paul (only 1 translator : i'll do translation) 17:37 hdl ok. 17:37 paul (otherwise, you will get 3 lines !) 17:37 paul nono, on t'écoute... 17:38 paul ;-) 17:38 paul (ok, i let you translating. I already wrote too much here !) 17:38 nono je travailles pour un reseau de mediatheque : 6 bibliotheques en reseau 17:38 paul (JYL57 is now our french => english translator for this meeting !) 17:39 hdl I do. 17:39 slef <nono> I work for a mediatheque network. 6 libraries in the network. 17:39 slef paul: general advice is to translate *into* your native language, unless there's a special reason. 17:40 nono je fais partit d'une equipe de 3 developpeurs qui auront pour tache d'adapter koha aux besoins (tres nombreus de la mediatheque) 17:40 slef <nono> I am part of a team of three developers who have the task of adapting koha to our needs (very many of the mediatheque) 17:41 nono nous sommes aidés par une entrprise privée (Ineo) qui mettra aussi a dispostion des developpeurs afin de nous aider a developper aussi 17:42 slef <nono> we are helped by a private enterprise (Ineo) who also put developers at our disposal to help us become developers too 17:42 slef (I think) 17:42 paul (to help us developping too) 17:43 nono actuellement, nous sommes en train de nous acclimater a koha, au millieu de l'open-source, du perl ..... ce qui fait qu'actuellemnt nous ne sommes pas tres present dans le milieu des developpeurs de koha 17:44 slef <nono> Currently, we are getting used to koha, in the mix of free software, of perl... that means that currently we aren't very active among koha developers 17:45 slef (now, that should flag translator bias for everyone ;-) ) 17:45 paul kudos to slef, this translation was hare... 17:45 kados hehe 17:45 paul s/e/d/ 17:45 gavin i've gotta hit the hay. hopefully talk to some of you on the dev list in the near future. 17:45 slef gavin: bye 17:46 rach nono what is your timeframe for your project? 17:46 kados or at least hopes for one ;-) 17:46 paul (nono : le planning pour le san) 17:47 nono we must finish our project for the 01/01/2006 17:47 rach an auspicious day 17:47 nono not for an administration in france 17:48 paul they already are on the way with migrating their datas (i helped them for the beginning) 17:48 shaun [OT] how does that fit in with any ideas kados has for 2.4 timeframe? 17:49 paul (not [OT] at all !!!) 17:49 paul ([OT] meaning Off Topic, Hors Sujet) 17:50 chris i think that we will need to give kados some time to think about that 17:50 chris and he will need to talk more to find out what features are needed etc 17:50 paul nono, is that all for you ? 17:51 hdl Et les fonctionnalités ? 17:51 hdl What about the features required ? 17:51 slef <hdl> and functionalities? 17:51 kados I think we should try to work together and make SAN's KOha fit within KOha 2.4 17:51 chris that might be better in an email? 17:51 slef fine, suit self ;-) 17:51 paul I can give some ideas on this 17:51 chris to the devel list? 17:51 kados but in order to do that we will need to compare notes 17:51 paul SAN want for example : 17:51 paul * search history in OPAC 17:52 paul * what we called "foraging opac" 2 years before 17:52 paul ... 17:52 kados let's hold off on the specifics ... I'll try to contact SAN and get the ball rolling 17:52 paul but nothing too specific (ie : everything should be in official Koha) 17:52 kados who should I contact? 17:53 paul most of them have subscribed koha-devel. 17:53 kados is there a project manager? 17:53 paul nono, should kados/joshua send you a mail ? or hélène ? or Francois laurent ? 17:53 nono bien sur 17:53 paul (francois laurent contenay, from Ineo, should be the project manager) 17:54 paul so, give you mails to kados 17:54 paul (not here, as it's logged => trapped by spam bots) 17:54 kados right 17:54 rach yes 17:54 shedges (i've got his e-mail, kados) 17:54 paul some more general explanations about Ineo & SAN... 17:54 paul Ineo is a large company, in France (60-70 employees) 17:55 paul they want to provide support for Koha for large libraries. 17:55 paul Their 1st contract is with SAN. 17:55 Nick large means....? 17:55 paul But they have answered a RFP for Angers University 17:55 paul (large means : more than 100 000¤ for the project. being a real minimum) 17:56 paul they will probably answer RFP from Antilles University 17:56 Nick (thinking of the place in Africa that was looking at us for their 19 million items National collection) 17:56 paul They used to work on very large project. Like Qatar city library. 17:56 paul or Marseille Public Library 17:56 paul (Marseille being the 2nd largest city in France) 17:57 paul so, in some months, they will probably have a team dedicated to Koha. 17:57 paul Francois Laurent Contenay, that was with SAN & I in Nelsonville last month will probably be the project manager on the long term 17:57 paul that's all about Ineo & San project. 17:57 rach cool thank you paul 17:58 paul very very big news for Koha in France. 17:58 rach that is big news for Koha! let alone in france :-) 17:58 Nick bravo! 17:58 paul (and an atomic-bomb one if Angers University decides to go with Koha !) 17:58 kados yep that would be huge! 17:58 Nick nod. 17:58 Nick Academic institutions tend to be library leaders in their regions, too... 17:59 chris how big is angers university paul? how many students? 17:59 rach what you want to work on Paul, is a library in Tahiti so that we can come visit 17:59 chris :) 17:59 indradg heh 17:59 russ new caledonia 17:59 youbeeh my job is to install koha in Paris 5 Unibersity. That means that koha is appreciated 17:59 shedges Paul, what kind of support will INEO want as they learn Koha? 18:00 JYL57 chris : Angers University means 16 000 students 18:00 paul rach & chris : i've met a guy today that is in Reunion Island. He should contact you for some visits. Close from NZ than from France 18:00 paul shedges : i don't understand your question. 18:00 paul and 460 000 items 18:00 kados also, another question about INEO: will they be active on the list and in #koha communicating with the general community? 18:00 paul and almos 1 000 000 issues a year ! 18:01 paul my opinion is that they plan to, but they are really surprised by OSS spirit. 18:01 shedges Paul, will they be working with you, for example? 18:01 kados I'd like to have regular conversations with the INEO team to find out what their plans are but right now I"m not sure who 'they' is 18:01 JohnN Paul your you know to Emiliano,, of Argentina, we are I aim to sign a cooperative covenant between the universities of The La Paz AND the UNLP, Argentina and Bolivia Together to improve the KOHA. 18:01 chris :-) 18:02 Nick surprised how Paul? 18:02 paul so they must change their mind & their working methods. 18:02 kados paul: right 18:02 shedges right 18:02 kados how can we help that process? 18:02 paul working with ppl without money & contract is strange... 18:02 paul shedges : they will be working with me, of course. 18:03 shaun _ 'tis midnight, i should be off in a minute 18:03 paul kados : drop a mail to francois laurend. 18:03 chris 2138673 issues for HLT 18:03 kados paul: will do 18:03 chris since koha went live 18:03 paul JohnN : really good. 18:03 JYL57 chris : just a small times factor in fact ! lol 18:04 paul ok, guys, 1AM here in france... 18:04 paul let's go to next topic ? 18:04 kados yep 18:04 rach yep - 2 topics left 18:04 shaun yeh, paul, i agree... 18:04 shaun lol 18:04 rach first is internationalisation 18:04 shaun i18n is what you mean to say. :D 18:04 JohnN good 18:05 slef At the minute, there's misc/translator and tmpl_process3.pl 18:05 slef which generates a gettext po file from templates 18:05 slef and puts it back again to make new/updated templates 18:05 slef if I understand it right 18:05 indradg right on the dot 18:06 slef The templates are still authored in native languages 18:06 slef Using the templates has the benefit of sort-of caching the languages your library supports 18:07 slef I'm wondering whether we could aim for templates to be authored in a language-neutral way 18:07 kados how would that work? 18:07 slef and if there's a way of supporting less-used languages directly from that and the po-file, rather than depending on what languages the admin installs. 18:08 slef kados: templates are written with the "msgstr" only and any new msgstr are told to translators 18:08 paul we could use "on fly" translating, but with our tech architecture, that's not really possible : means reading the whole po file on each page. 18:08 kados I've toyed with the idea of having a 'programmers' template 18:08 slef as I understand it... I've not translated as many templates as I hoped 18:09 slef uh, do I mean msgstr or msgid? 18:09 kados interesting 18:09 slef paul: is it possible to restructure? 18:10 paul would be OK with mod_perl 18:10 slef and would having all libraries supporting all languages seen as worth the effort? 18:10 paul as the .po file would be in memory 18:11 kados as long as it doesn't hinder performance I see it as a good thing 18:12 indradg I am wondering what kind of performance over-heads might be involved in a "on-the-fly" process 18:12 kados though I"m still not clear on the specifics of how it works 18:12 slef Other than that, what do people see as the reasons why translations seem to die away? 18:12 kados template designers don't implement the languages into their tempalte would be #1 on my list 18:13 kados koha 1.2 had like 4 or 5 language IIRC 18:13 Nick (were all of them really fully supported?) 18:13 rach 1.2 was quite simple compared to koha now 18:14 rach so perhaps overall complexity makes it harder to do? 18:14 Genji so... template files are going to have msgid's instead of actual text? 18:14 indradg i have a question here 18:14 rach And I think Koha is changing more quickly at the moment - we had a year or so of it being quite stable 18:15 rach when people had time to do the translations, and they "lasted" 18:15 slef Genji: that would be the aim, and to create a vocab for translating. 18:15 slef (vocabulary, sorry) 18:15 kados rach: right ... as folks come and fade there's no way to ensure that work lasts 18:15 slef indradg: go ahead 18:15 rach indradg - your question? 18:15 rach snap 18:16 indradg this on the fly thing may work for LATIN based scripts... but in case of complex Asian script, CSS requirements may be different (as I noted working with Bengali) 18:16 indradg right now.. with the admin-set LANG param its easy to force a new CSS 18:16 chris good point 18:16 slef ok, it seems on-the-fly isn't realistic during 2.3? 18:16 slef as I have no good answer to that one! 18:17 hdl very Good, if we²are to work with arabic folks 18:17 kados anything more on internationalization? 18:17 chris i think the problem and the advantage with html::template is 18:17 chris its very flexible 18:17 slef kados: when is 2.4.0's target date and who is translation coordinator? 18:18 indradg right now Govt of India is considering Koha for 500 schools across India...if that comes thru they will need the support for Hindi along with EN of course in the UI 18:18 kados slef: don't have solid answers to either of those yet 18:18 rach I think we need a volunteer for translation coordinator 18:18 kados slef: but I think a rough date is 2006-01-01 18:18 slef all, does someone with good experience of po want to volunteer? 18:18 chris that'd count me out 18:19 Genji woooo.. Koha will take the world by storm! 18:19 slef chris: if no po guru wants it, do you, then? 18:19 indradg I can volunteer... I have been a member of BN L10N project and currently the project lead for bn.openoffice.org project 18:19 rach lol 18:19 indradg :) 18:19 kados :-) 18:20 Nick chris? 18:20 chris yes? 18:20 JohnN I think that each language should have a coordinator. 18:20 Nick no, we're all saved. I've seen Chris's spelling. 18:20 chris heh 18:20 indradg hehe 18:20 rach yes that is a good idea JohnN 18:20 slef JohnN: of course. I think this is more l10n/i18n coordinator. 18:20 kados JohnN: that sounds like a good idea 18:21 kados having one person to oversee the efforts might be a good thing 18:21 rach so we need people to co-ordinate the actual translation for each language, and then an overall co-ordinator to make sure that's happening 18:21 kados right 18:21 rach a pyramid scheme 18:21 kados I'd like to see a similar structure with template design ... but more on that later ;-) 18:21 slef I'm finished on i18n. Sorry it's been a bit fuzzy. I'd hoped to have done more beforehand. 18:22 rach or we need one person with no life who speaks 17 languages including po :-) 18:22 kados hehe 18:22 rach yes that would be the plan shaun 18:22 indradg btw... I've completed abt 70% translation (Intranet) and OPAC (complete) for Bengali (bn_IN) will be committing it in shortly... so one more lang for Koha 2.4 18:22 kados indradg: congrats! 18:22 slef is kados's monthly town hall a good aim? 18:23 shaun rach: can we arrange a time or would you like to send it out to the mailing list when you have decided? 18:23 chris i think so slef 18:23 rach It is, but we will want to have "working group" meetings as well where people can do the nity gritty discussions 18:23 kados exactly 18:23 rach and report back or something 18:23 slef yeah, sorry for drifting OT 18:23 indradg yes.. makes sense.... plus the bug triage day 18:24 rach yep 18:24 Nick randomly: 18:24 kados and each project manager, the RM and the kaitaiki (if she wants) can attend those working group meetings 18:24 Nick maybe premature, but it always comes up: 18:24 rach yep 18:24 shaun rach: yes, working group is good imo - how about using a different # to keep it organised? 18:24 Nick who has resources they can volunteer for loading test copies? 18:24 kados LibLime can host demos if that's what you're asking 18:24 Nick cool 18:25 shaun i have terabytes of space that i don't know what to do with... 18:25 rach well - having it here is good, it's logged so if you can't make it/disagree with a decision you can read back and see why people got to where they did 18:25 hdl demo.koha-fr.org is also volunteer 18:25 Nick ...remembering instances where we needed a copy to screenshot for documentation and never found a one running. 18:25 kados yea ... this # isn't used that much so it shouldn't interfere to have meetings happen here 18:25 kados Nick: opac.liblime.com and koha.liblime.com should be pretty stable 18:26 shaun kados: they running 2.2, i presume? 18:26 kados Nick: for version 2.2 ... 18:26 indradg i vote for #koha 18:26 Nick wonderful. 18:26 Genji k. gotta go. logging. laters. 18:26 kados cya Genjo 18:26 kados Gengi even ;-) 18:26 indradg ciao Genji 18:27 rach OK one more thing 18:27 rach Koha Website - which is horribly out of date, and lacking in polish, shine, general goodness 18:27 shedges (lots of grenn, though) 18:28 shedges green even 18:28 rach you want to make a new site shaun? 18:28 slef What happened to the webmaster suggested last time, JOOI? 18:28 rach they made some changes, but didn't make them public 18:28 russ slef - i meet with mikem, fiona and rach p 18:28 shaun I want to/would like to... ah, theres a good one "I feel it is in the interest of Koha in general to make a new website" :p 18:28 russ who were going to take over the site maintanece 18:29 russ and they made some changes 18:29 rach ah well - we all think that, I want to know if you were offering to actually do it :-) 18:29 russ but i think they have fallen off the radar 18:29 chris so what we want is new site maintainers? 18:30 russ yep 18:30 russ ok so what i have done 18:30 shaun design is my background, as i said before - I could do a whole site in a style that is consistent with the latest katipo templates or ours (Ben and I), maybe even a blog ;-) 18:30 kados it's a big job (as I've learned recently with liblime) there are graphics, text to be written, general design, etc. Are we talking about a whole new website or just some maintennace on the current one 18:30 russ is set up a queue for hte koah website in the Katipo Request Tracker 18:30 russ if you have changes for the current website 18:30 Nick thick skin also required. 18:30 russ you can email them to kohaweb@support.katipo.co.nz 18:30 Nick zenlike patience. 18:31 shaun rach: is it on katipo servers? can you do php? 18:31 rach yes it is on the katipo servres 18:32 rach Shaun if you're keen to do a whole new site, can you do that on your own server - seperate to the current site 18:32 rach we can't just trash the current one 18:32 kados agreed 18:32 rach but I think that it does need a major overhaul, so we should do that in parallel 18:32 paul guys, it's 1:30AM here. Do you have an objection if i go to bed ? 18:32 shaun yes, but my server is the one in my conservatory, and it's on an adsl line... 18:32 chris no problem paul 18:32 chris thanks for your time 18:32 shaun jw: is there a reason for green? 18:33 kados night paul 18:33 kados thanks! 18:33 rach in the mean time the people who know stuff - send updated actual content through to us 18:33 shaun yeh, night paul, thanks 18:33 rach and we'll try and get the words sorted out 18:33 indradg g'nite paul 18:33 rach because we'll need that for a new site as well 18:33 shaun ben can probably do the wording quite well... 18:34 rach tahnk you paul 18:34 shaun got any ideas for a concept? basic stuff here... 18:34 JYL57 rach, last hint : add quickly new links section with : wiki, kohadocs , really urgent !! 18:34 rach well if ben wants to go through and send new content to the address up there that would be awesome 18:34 slef Put some constraints on (URLs stay the same, motifs the same) but redo it all to be accessible and crisp. 18:34 rach yes that counts as content for me JY 18:34 JYL57 Ok 18:34 russ JYL57 - can you email that to kohaweb@support.katipo.co.nz 18:34 shaun jw: is there a reason for green, was it just something you liked at the time? 18:34 russ and i will make sure it gets done 18:35 nono I go to bed too, and I promise, next time, I will be more "active" . 18:35 slef Also acknowledge koha-fr, koha England, and any other kohas 18:35 rach green - new, fresh etc 18:35 JYL57 russ : will try to write you a few lines... 18:35 rach expected people to change it for their own libraries 18:35 Sylvain bonne nuit paul_bed ;) 18:35 russ cool thanks 18:35 JohnN Good evening Paul ;) zzzzz 18:35 kados youbeeh: where's the actual problem happening? 18:35 shaun hmm, it isn't that fresh any more though, how long has that site been going for? 18:35 kados oops ... sorry 18:35 JYL57 leaving now ! by all 18:36 shaun bye 18:36 rach shaun, if you want to do an alternate design just go ahead and do it 18:36 shaun will do 18:36 shaun so can we go through and do an allocation of tasks for the website? 18:37 shaun I'll do the design and try to implement the blog, and make it good to accompany the 2.4 release with a similar style etc, 18:37 indradg cool 18:37 rach shaun you can give that a go 18:38 shaun I will host the testing site and then transfer it over to katipo to host it (but i don't know who gets credit for it) 18:38 kados sounds good to me 18:38 shedges shaun, would you be able to post links to koha-devel as you work? 18:38 rach I'll come clean though - if I don't like it it won't go up :-) 18:39 rach so do lots of consultation/showing what you're up to before you get heavily into coding would be my advice 18:39 shaun yes, I'll post them up 18:39 indradg rach, u rock! :) 18:39 rach even if it's just with me :-) 18:39 shaun russ, what background are you from? library science, programming design, etc? 18:39 russ project manager 18:39 russ and i did the design for the current site 18:40 rach so shaun it's a big ask to do the koha website, many of us have businesses that depend on it 18:40 russ a couple years back 18:40 rach that is not a defence of the current site, but means we'll all want a say in a new one 18:40 russ yep 18:41 kados yep ... I've had potential customers confused because the official site differs from liblime.com 18:41 chris yep thats my biggest bugbear, the blatantly wrong content 18:41 indradg hey I need to ask this now... who came up with the idea of the "friendly ghost" artwork? 18:41 Nick the blobbies? 18:41 indradg yes 18:41 rach ah that would be me and rosalie - they were used to illustrate a presentation, and kinda stuck 18:41 slef There's just no way to contribute to koha world at the moment, as far as I can tell (not tried new email address yet). 18:42 rach the map slef? 18:42 russ koha world? 18:42 slef www.koha.org 18:42 shaun i will uproot them... unless you object, rach! :p 18:42 slef I call it koha world to distinguish from koha france and koha england 18:42 rach ah right 18:42 kados IMO the blobbies are cute but not profession al ;-) 18:42 shaun yeh, same here 18:42 russ yeah we prolly need to move on from them 18:43 rach Shaun, grab the list of people then who are interested in the website 18:43 chris if we start sending content to kohaweb@support.katipo.co.nz 18:43 shaun shout, people ^ 18:43 rach and lets start a discussion via e-mail - you start it off saying what you want to do 18:43 rach and we'll all pitch in :-) 18:43 slef shaun! 18:43 chris and lets start getting the content up to date 18:43 kados sounds good to me 18:43 slef in what format is koha wanted? 18:43 slef in what format is content wanted? 18:43 chris russ? 18:44 russ um i'll take it as it comes, plain text in an email is fine 18:44 slef udiff against current source? What current source? 18:44 shaun I plan on doing a total tidy of code as well (XHTML 1.0) btw 18:44 slef oh ok 18:45 rach alright, so we have russ in charge of tidying up the current site 18:45 russ with a bit of an explanation of what is happening in behind the scenes 18:45 rach and shaun starting a project for a new site 18:45 slef russ: instructions on the web site and then email the list? 18:45 kados anything else to discuss? 18:45 russ yep - slef good idea - i'll get onto it 18:45 rach We are now at general business :-) 18:45 SylvainZZ good night/day all 18:45 shaun I feel better about doing the koha site somehow... i was working on the oo.o redesign but they are closed-minded *doesn't have polite word to put here* 18:45 rach well done all who made it this far 18:45 kados hehe 18:46 hdl night. 18:46 rach nite 18:46 kados so what exactly is 'general business'? 18:46 slef if we can get monthly again, these should get shorter and quicker 18:46 rach yes 18:46 indradg rach, this is bloody endurance test ;) 18:46 rach sorry indradg - it is a bit 18:46 indradg rach, hey j/k :) 18:46 slef shaun: I've tried to get a link for sxw2text on the oo.o site, but nyaaaaaaaaaaargh dead 18:47 slef rach: use +m for extreme cases 18:47 shaun how about purple for the site? 18:47 rach General Business is basically the opportunity for chatting about anything else needed - that didn't make it onto the agenda :-) 18:47 chris shaun i suggest you organise a website meeting 18:47 slef (moderated channel and then hand out +v to the person/people with the floor, opening it again as needed) 18:48 slef chris++ 18:48 shaun heh, i laugh at the oo.o website people now... look how it turned out... urgh! 18:48 rach shaun - when we do design here we start with black and white 18:48 shaun yes, i will send a message out to the mailing list tomorrow 18:48 rach to get the style and the content correct 18:48 rach and then add colours etc 18:48 Nick important note: 18:49 Nick spelling! 18:49 Nick as in US-English vs Commonwealth. 18:49 kados Nick: good point nick 18:49 kados it would be nice if we were consistant 18:49 kados looks more professional that way 18:49 kados I don't have a preference which we pick 18:49 chris consistent ? 18:49 chris :) 18:49 kados hehe 18:49 slef consistently en_EN ;-) 18:49 shaun go for commonwealth, +1 to slef 18:50 kados well I can't spell to save my life 18:50 kados but I use spellcheck for everything but IRC 18:50 indradg lol 18:50 shaun kados: maybe you're going to die... :D 18:50 kados hehe 18:50 chris i dont mind either 18:50 shaun what do you use in nz? 18:50 chris en_EN 18:50 rach Pat used to think that the Americans liked the English spelling 18:51 chris for the most part 18:51 shaun favorite/favourite etc 18:51 kados yep 18:51 kados I think that's true 18:51 slef then again, stuff like s and z is a dispute in England anyway 18:51 chris cept when we slip maori words 18:51 kados it's elegent 18:51 chris in 18:51 slef depending whether you believe the old farts at the OED or not 18:51 shaun how about keeping maori words in <i> or <em>? 18:51 Nick could we at least shoot for consistent in the same page :) 18:51 slef kados: 4 centuries out of date! 18:52 chris thats a fair goal 18:52 kados hehe 18:52 rach :-) 18:52 Nick (...thinking of early versions of the FAQ, which blended all over the place) 18:52 chris yep 18:52 kados let's stick with en_EN for thw whole site 18:52 Nick incidental item: 18:52 shaun ok 18:52 Nick we might also try to agree on (rough) styles for technical stuff. 18:52 shaun en_GB 18:53 slef I suspect it's GE 18:53 shaun GB 18:53 Nick ie differentiated fonts/text style for snippets from apache.conf etc. 18:53 slef depends if you believe in "Britain" 18:53 Nick er httpd.conf 18:53 indradg hmmm ... LC_LOCALE=C ? ;) 18:53 kados well unless there's anything else pressing I'm gonna jet 18:53 chris yep me too 18:53 chris i gotta go test drive a car 18:54 shaun never heard of "Great England" slef... 18:54 kados have fun 18:54 rach hope you don't have to start work in an hour or so indrag, and get some leep 18:54 Nick (fear for Wellington's citizenry) 18:54 rach sleep 18:54 rach have you seen chris drive then nick? 18:54 Nick I think someone mentioned it once maybe. 18:54 Nick also, not unusual for techie types to Drive Fast. 18:54 Nick why? 18:54 chris ill have you know i was the champion of Daytona at the Fitz (student pub) when i was university 18:55 slef shaun: I know. The codes are odd, if I remember correctly. 18:55 shaun oh dear... 'tis my recital tomorrow... 18:55 chris at university 18:55 Nick ? Daytona? 18:55 shedges wow, what a meeting... 18:55 Nick that's here.... 18:55 Nick wait: arcade game? 18:56 rach yep 18:56 shedges cya, all 18:56 Nick game physics I will note different from real physics. 18:56 rach Meeting officially Done 18:56 Nick indeed. 18:56 rach Back to random chatting :-) 18:56 shaun great... 18:56 Nick also, no additional lives in real physics. 18:57 chris subaru forester 18:57 chris so a station wagon :) 18:57 indradg well ppl... will see u all later... need some shut-eye now! 18:57 shaun hehe 18:57 russ ah note very daytona like then 18:57 chris cya indradg 18:57 shaun bye 18:57 Nick oh dear. 18:57 rach poor indragd - it's 5.30am for him 18:58 Nick gnight in' 18:58 Nick g'bye all... also should go. 18:58 shaun i was up at 4:00 in the morning once on #... the next day in school was mildly amusing 18:59 shaun bye nick 18:59 Nick have fun all. 18:59 rach see ya nick 18:59 Nick good to make it, fun as always/thanx all. 18:59 Nick over and out. 19:00 shaun how many people here are still observing the meeting? 19:00 rach a few will be - our lot are all back to work, so they'll see stuff that goes by 19:00 rach mmm lunch time 19:01 youbeeh bye all. thanks for all... i'll write an email to the list hopping your help for my koha 2.2 z3950 problem. 19:01 shaun lunch time?! i don't have the energy to go upstairs to bed :\ 19:01 rach well done for making to the end 19:01 slef wow, that was time wasted 19:01 slef apparently ISO country code for England is GB-ENG 19:01 shaun cya youbeeh 19:02 slef but then again, they label Wales as GB-WLS rather than CYM which I'm sure would be really popular in parts of it ;-) 19:02 rach so is there a GB-SCO for scotland? 19:02 shaun the code that people use (keyboard layouts, documentation languages etc) is en_GB, same with en_US 19:02 slef rach: GB-SCT, GB-NIR, GB-GSY, GB-JSY, GB-IOM 19:02 shaun co_CO is cornwall :D (only means anything if you live in devon, that one) 19:03 slef shaun: what no kw? 19:04 shaun that's to the outsiders... kw_KW is the internal code... 19:04 rach it's a strange wee set of islands 19:04 shaun indubitably. 19:04 slef (for those abroad, Cornish (Kernewek?) is another Celtic language) 19:05 slef hey, does Ben break out in dialect? That would be cool. Don't find much Northants online. 19:06 slef http://www.desboro.net/information/language.htm 19:07 shaun Ben is not somebody who really has an obscure accent... which i suppose means that he has the same accent as me, and he also talks using unnecessarily elongated vocabulary during rational conversation. 19:09 shaun *coughs* nerd 19:10 shaun ;-) 19:11 shaun hmm, maybe we can arrange a website meeting for this time next week... we can't satisfy everybody, as always 19:11 shaun or the same time, ie 9 GMT 19:12 shaun If nothing I say makes sense, it's because tired. 19:12 shaun *I'm* tired 19:13 shaun *embarrassed, goes to bed* 19:13 shaun night all 19:57 JohnN night all! 20:39 Genji back 21:08 tungsten h 02:27 paul hdl, bonjour. Pile au même moment ! 02:27 hdl Oui. 02:27 hdl On s e voit ? 02:27 paul si tu veux. 02:27 paul ("pas connecté" ?) 02:28 hdl j'ai essayé en même temps que toi. 02:28 hdl Je rentente. 02:28 indradg good morning friends 02:29 hdl hi indradg 02:46 michael so did your french friends sleep OK? 02:46 michael your = our 02:49 hdl quite good. 02:52 paul quite not enough michael ;-) 03:05 Sylvain hi ! 03:06 Sylvain ah je prends connaissance de tes updates au CVS paul, ça m'a l'air plutot cool sur les membres :) 05:50 michael night all 08:06 Sylvain paul tu es la ? 08:06 paul vivi 08:07 Sylvain une petite question que je me pose en lisant ce qui s'est dit hier soir, c'est quoi le "foraging opac" dont tu parles à propos du SAN ? 08:23 paul sylvain : c'est "opac à la yahoo" 08:23 paul par navigation dans le catalogue, pas par recherche. 08:23 Sylvain ok, opac à la yahoo ça me parle plus ;) 08:23 Sylvain comme pmb en fait ;) 08:25 paul oui. mais en mieux 8-) 08:26 Sylvain j'imagine :) 09:08 owen Hi hdl 09:13 paul (hdl, tu peux m'appeler en visio STP ?) 09:13 paul 'morning owen. 09:19 hdl hi owen 09:30 kados hi all 09:30 paul Hi boss ;-) 09:30 kados hehe 09:31 paul did you plucene script finish ? could you do some tests ? 09:31 kados yep ... that's on my list for today 09:31 kados I've got some bugs to look at first though 09:32 paul did you give a try to my item problem suggestion ? 09:32 paul (or is it on top of your list ?) 09:32 kados that's the first bug ;-) 09:32 kados actually, owen is better able to test it since he's been looking at the parameters lately 09:33 kados owen: here's what paul said yesterday to me: 09:33 kados i've a customer that had a problem that sounds similar to yours -- one subfield mapped to tab 10 09:34 kados so, he had 2 fields into tab 10 (item) and that confuses Koha 09:34 kados AND there is a bug in checkmarc checkmarc.pl says "everything OK" where it is not 09:34 kados the result was : 09:34 kados * "false items" 09:35 kados * impossible to modify correctly an item 09:36 Sylvain I've a little question if someone has an idea. Right now, I'm looking at creating a biblio from a marc record in the breeding (for acqusitions purpose) . My problem is that I can't figure how to manage the encoding of the record. When you create a biblio in Catalogue section, the marc record is decoded in buildtab and then saved when user select save but I can't figure how to get the same thing without using the tabs 09:37 Sylvain maybe not clear but if someone understands and has an idea :) 09:38 paul there is no way i'm afraid. Maybe you should just create the biblio with NEWnewbiblio. 09:38 kados paul: in MARC links, only one tag/subfield is mapped to itemnumber: 952u 09:39 Sylvain yes paul but NEWnewbiblio doesn't take the encoding in parameter afaik 09:39 kados (where is 'tab 10' in MARC links?) or am I in the wrong section? 09:39 paul right sylvain. So, no idea. 09:39 paul kados : you are looking at "mapping", you should look at "tab" 09:40 Sylvain it's what I was thinking paul, bad :( 09:40 paul select * from marc_subfield_structure where tab=10 09:40 Sylvain so it won't be for this weekI think 09:40 paul if you get 952 and something else, then you've got your problem ! 09:41 paul sylvain, you should probably parse the record "manually", & recreate it after decoding. 09:41 paul (some samples to parse a MARC::Record on this page : 09:41 kados we have several 952s listed there: b, d, p, r, v, and y 09:41 paul http://marcpm.sourceforge.net/MARC/ 09:41 paul and nothing except 952 ? 09:42 kados right 09:42 paul bad news. 09:42 paul we haven't found your problems. 09:42 kados :-( 09:42 paul could you remind me what happends exactly ? 09:43 paul (sylvain : Doc/tutorial.html) 09:43 kados sure ... when an item is added the itemnumber appears in the Koha tables but not in marc_subfield_table (in 952u) 09:43 kados meaning that it is impossible to further edit that item 09:44 Sylvain I'll have a look Paul, I think parsing the record will be the solution :( 09:44 kados http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=983 09:44 paul select * from marc_subfield_structure where kohafield="items.itemnumber" says what ? 09:45 paul should say : 09:45 paul 1 line per framework. 09:45 paul tagfield = 952, tagsubfield=9, tab=-1 09:45 kados we have: 09:45 kados | 952 | u | itemnumber | itemnumber | 0 | 0 | items.itemnumber | -1 | | | | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | | NULL | 09:46 paul misses some sql columns isn't it ? 09:46 kados so tagsubfield should be 9? not u? 09:46 paul no, you're right 09:46 kados looks like framework code isn't populated ... 09:46 paul (it's 9 for me, but can be anything iirc) 09:47 paul (was $u for you in 2.0.0 anyway, isn't it ?) 09:47 kados yep 09:47 owen frameworkcode is blank by default 09:48 kados paul, is something missing from this line? 09:49 paul is your frameworkcode NULL ? 09:49 paul (is it last column ?) 09:49 kados no it's blank 09:49 paul sh... 09:49 kados | tagfield | tagsubfield | liblibrarian | libopac | repeatable | mandatory | kohafield | tab | authorised_value | thesaurus_category | value_builder | seealso | authtypecode | hidden | isurl | frameworkcode | link | 09:49 kados +----------+-------------+--------------+------------+------------+-----------+------------------+------+------------------+--------------------+---------------+---------+--------------+--------+-------+---------------+------+ 09:49 kados | 952 | u | itemnumber | itemnumber | 0 | 0 | items.itemnumber | -1 | | | | NULL | NULL | NULL | NULL | | NULL | 09:50 kados ahh ... ok 09:50 paul (probably an irc copy/paste problem 09:50 kados tagsubfield = 952 09:50 kados oops 09:50 kados tagfield = 952 09:50 kados tagsubfield = u 09:50 kados liblibrarian = itemnumber 09:50 kados libopac = itemnumber 09:50 kados repeatable = 0 09:50 kados mandatory = 0 09:51 kados kohafield = items.itemnumber 09:51 kados tab = -1 09:51 kados authorized_value = 09:51 kados thesaurus_category = 09:51 kados value_builder = NULL 09:51 kados seealso = NULL 09:51 kados authtypecode = NULL 09:52 kados hidden = NULL 09:52 kados isurl = 09:52 kados frameworkcode = 09:52 kados link = NULL 09:52 paul ok, let's look at Biblio.pm/NEWnewitem... (line 1332 for me) 09:52 paul my $item = &MARCmarc2koha( $dbh, $record,$frameworkcode ); 09:53 paul the previous line builds the hash with items fields. 09:53 paul my $bib = &MARCadditem( $dbh, $record, $item->{'biblionumber'} ); 09:53 paul the previous line insert the MARC value. 09:54 paul between thos lines, you have 09:54 paul # add itemnumber to MARC::Record before adding the item. 09:54 paul and, more important : 09:54 paul &MARCkoha2marcOnefield( $sth, $record, "items.itemnumber", $itemnumber,$frameworkcode ); 09:54 paul just after this line, add a : 09:54 paul warn "=>".$record->as_formatted; 09:54 paul & tell me if you have the itemnumber in 952u 09:55 paul also add a warn "=>".$itemnumber 09:55 paul ; 09:55 paul to be sure you have the itemnumber before adding it to the MARC::Record 09:57 Sylvain a little question : Is-it possible to configurate the framework in order to put the bibid in 001 for example ? 09:59 paul the bibid ? no, it's not in the MARC::Record 09:59 Sylvain euh, I've to see something 09:59 kados paul: looks like not 09:59 kados =>LDR 09:59 kados 952 _bAPL 09:59 kados _dAPL 09:59 kados _p32009900091087 09:59 kados _r12 at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/Biblio.pm line 1353. 09:59 kados 329534 at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/Biblio.pm line 1354. 10:00 paul and $itemnumber exists ? 10:00 kados yep 10:00 kados that's this line: 10:00 kados 329534 at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/Biblio.pm line 1354. 10:00 paul ok, good news. 10:00 paul means you have a problem in 10:00 paul my $sth = 10:00 paul $dbh->prepare( 10:00 paul "select tagfield,tagsubfield from marc_subfield_structure where frameworkcode=? and kohafield=?" 10:00 paul ); 10:00 paul &MARCkoha2marcOnefield( $sth, $record, "items.itemnumber", $itemnumber,$frameworkcode ); 10:02 paul go to 10:02 paul sub MARCkoha2marcOnefield { 10:02 paul add a warn "I'm here" just after 10:02 paul if ( ( $tagfield, $tagsubfield ) = $sth->fetchrow ) { 10:03 paul (a warn "here : $tagfield / $tagsubfield" 10:03 paul should be better. 10:04 kados it doesn't show up 10:05 paul what ? 10:05 paul do a 10:05 paul warn "==> $frameworkcode,$kohafieldname" before the execute 10:06 kados ==> ,items.itemnumber 10:06 kados so frameworkcode isn't getting through for one 10:07 kados but that's NULL right? 10:08 paul should not 10:08 kados my ( $sth, $record, $kohafieldname, $value,$frameworkcode ) = @_; 10:08 kados &MARCkoha2marcOnefield( $sth, $record, "items.itemnumber", $itemnumber,$frameworkcode ); 10:08 paul but it means the "select" returns nothing. 10:08 paul and it should not. 10:09 paul try the select manually 10:09 paul select tagfield,tagsubfield from marc_subfield_structure where frameworkcode=? and kohafield=?" 10:10 kados what is a value for kohafield? 10:10 kados ERROR 1064: You have an error in your SQL syntax. Check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near 'and kohafield=' at line 1 10:11 kados when I leave both blank I get that error 10:12 kados so the problem must be that sql eh? 10:12 paul not blank, don't forget the '' 10:12 paul select tagfield,tagsubfield from marc_subfield_structure where frameworkcode='' and kohafield='items.itemnumber' 10:12 kados I see ... 10:12 kados 432 rows 10:12 paul 432 rows ? is it a joke ? 10:12 kados nope 10:12 kados here are some: 10:13 kados | 856 | w | 10:13 kados | 856 | x | 10:13 kados | 856 | y | 10:13 kados | 856 | z | 10:13 kados | 490 | a | 10:13 paul with kohafield='items.itemnumber' at the end of the sql request ? 10:13 kados ahh ... nope 10:13 kados just 952 u 10:13 paul ah... i prefer. 10:13 paul but we still don't have our culprit... 10:14 paul you have put the "warn" after 10:15 paul if ( ( $tagfield, $tagsubfield ) = $sth->fetchrow ) { 10:15 paul and not after 10:15 paul if ( $record->field($tagfield) ) { 10:15 paul (in sub MARCkoha2marcOnefield {) 10:16 kados it does not show up in either case 10:17 paul mmm... look for an sql error ? 10:17 paul (just after the execute() 10:17 kados well here's the problem 10:17 kados my $tagfield; 10:17 kados my $tagsubfield; 10:17 kados if ( ( $tagfield, $tagsubfield ) = $sth->fetchrow ) 10:17 kados tagfield and tagsubfield are empty 10:18 kados why would they = that sql row? 10:18 paul yes, after the fetchrow 10:19 kados ahh ... it's not == ... so it's just checking we have dbh 10:19 paul (they are filled byt the $sth->fetchrow, and if not, nothing has been found, we have an error that we should trap) 10:19 kados I get it now 10:20 kados so we need a || die errstr? 10:20 kados I'm not sure of the syntax to get the mysql error 10:20 paul die errstr is maybe a little bit too hare. 10:20 paul hard 10:20 paul but we could. 10:20 paul die $dbh->errstr() 10:21 paul or just a } else { 10:21 paul warn "error in sub blabla : ".$dbh->errstr 10:21 paul ] 10:21 paul } 10:21 paul on line 1018 10:21 kados Global symbol "$dbh" requires explicit package name at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/Biblio.pm line 1008. 10:24 paul $sth->errstr() 10:25 kados strange : 10:25 kados error in sub blabla : at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/Biblio.pm line 1025. 10:26 paul so, no errors as expected. 10:26 paul but no results anyway... 10:27 paul 10¤ that the problem is in the framework content. 10:27 paul try a $frameworkcode='' just after the my () = @_; 10:27 paul and tell me if it works better. 10:27 paul (filling the frameworkcode with a correct value manually) 10:28 Sylvain bye all ! 10:30 kados yay! it worked 10:31 kados so all of your libraries have frameworkcodes setup? 10:31 kados and that's why it isn't happening to you? 10:31 kados when there is no frameworkcode the problem happens ... should I update the bug report? 10:33 paul nope 10:33 paul frameworkcode must me not null 10:33 paul & set to '' 10:34 paul for a reason i don't understand clearly, i think you have frameworkcode set to null 10:36 kados I know why 10:36 kados (I think) 10:36 kados you told me to run: 10:36 kados update marc_tag_structure set frameworkcode='' 10:37 kados update marc_subfield_structure set frameworkcode=''; 10:37 kados after our upgrade 10:37 kados (after updatedatabase) 10:37 kados but maybe there is also another place to run this? 10:40 kados (which frameworkcode needs to be set to '' ?) 10:40 paul (sorry kados, but i' had a deconnection) 10:40 kados marc_tag_structure and marc_subfield_structure both have no null frameworkcodes 10:40 kados no problem ;-) 10:40 paul (did i miss something you wrote ?) 10:41 kados after our upgrade (after running updatedatabase) I had to run 10:41 kados update marc_tag_structure set frameworkcode='' 10:41 kados update marc_subfield_structure set frameworkcode=''; 10:41 kados is there another one to run? 10:41 paul nope 10:41 kados select * from marc_tag_structure where frameworkcode is null limit 0,20; 10:41 kados Empty set (0.04 sec) 10:41 paul insert a 10:41 kados select * from marc_subfield_structure where frameworkcode is null limit 0,20; 10:41 kados Empty set (0.01 sec) 10:42 paul warn " =$frameworkcode="; 10:42 paul (to see if it has a space in it) 10:42 paul (after the ()=@_; 10:42 kados ok 10:43 kados == at /usr/local/koha/intranet/modules//C4/Biblio.pm line 1002. 10:43 kados no space 10:45 paul warn "UNDEFINED" unless defined $frameworkcode; 10:45 paul is UNDEFINED shown ? 10:47 kados yes 10:47 kados my $frameworkcode=MARCfind_frameworkcode($dbh,$bibid); 10:48 kados this is in Newnewitem 10:49 kados select frameworkcode from marc_biblio where bibid=? 10:49 kados that's the wrong query right? 10:49 kados select frameworkcode from marc_biblio limit 0,20; 10:49 kados | NULL | 10:49 kados | NULL | 10:49 kados | NULL | 10:49 kados | NULL | 10:49 kados | NULL 10:50 kados SO ... I DO need to run another update 10:50 kados to marc_biblio, right? 10:50 kados update marc_biblio set frameworkcode=''; 10:50 kados ?? 10:51 kados select count(*) from marc_biblio where frameworkcode is not null; 10:51 kados 2097 10:51 kados select count(*) from marc_biblio where frameworkcode is null; 10:52 kados 144813 10:52 kados the 'not null' are blank 10:52 kados paul ? 10:59 slef ooh, I'm still here 11:02 paul kados, sorry, i was away for a minut. 11:02 paul you're right. You must not have a NULL frameworkcode anywhere 11:03 paul so "update marc_biblio set frameworkcode='' where frameworkcode is null" should do the job 11:03 paul and maybe a change in DB structure 11:03 paul to have frameworkcode not null default '' 11:04 kados ok ... should I do a change in the DB structure for marc_subfield_table and marc_subfield_structure too? 11:04 paul you should have done this before I think. 11:04 paul but if you don't, you can ;-) 11:04 kados nope ... because I never understood the syntax ... 11:04 paul you should have a phpmyadmin setup 11:05 paul as it's really user friendly 11:07 kados alter table marc_subfield_table set frameworkcode=''; 11:07 kados is that right? 11:08 paul nope. 11:08 paul alter table marc_subfield_table set frameworkcode not NULL default ''; 11:08 paul (not sure) 11:09 kados ok ... thanks 11:09 paul kados, is zed_koha_server.pl in CVS uptodate. 11:09 paul i've some problems with it with an UNIMARC DB 11:09 kados yea ... I suspect the leader 11:09 kados you need to manually fill the leader I think 11:10 kados I'm not sure if the one in CVS is the latest ... I'll check on that 11:10 paul what is your filling ? 11:10 kados http://lists.katipo.co.nz/public/koha/2004/002694.html 11:16 kados owen: you there? 11:16 owen Yes 11:16 kados we need to find all the null frameworkcodes 11:16 kados change them to '' 11:17 kados then update all the defaults to be '' for the table definition 11:17 owen update marc_subfield_table set frameworkcode = '' where frameworkcode IS NULL? 11:18 kados right ... but that doesn't handle the defaults right? 11:18 kados it's default NULL for some reason 11:18 owen so we need to alter the table as well 11:18 kados right 11:19 kados strange ... marc_subfield_table does't even have a frameworkcode 11:19 owen No, I must be wrong about where it is 11:19 owen it's in marc_tag_structure 11:20 kados and marc_subfield_structure 11:20 kados and marc_biblio 11:20 kados anywhere else? 11:20 owen This is what phpMyAdmin suggests: ALTER TABLE `marc_tag_structure` CHANGE `frameworkcode` `frameworkcode` CHAR( 4 ) NOT NULL 11:20 kados ok ... I'll try that on 101 11:21 kados seems to have run ok 11:24 kados strange ... on 101 edit items isn't working for me anymore 11:26 kados I can't delete items either 11:27 kados ahh ... just the ones that were added before the fix was applied 11:28 kados cool ... everything seems to be working now 11:28 kados I'm going to run this on production 11:29 owen Great 11:30 kados owen: do you know of any other places where there is a frameworkcode? 11:32 owen I'm flipping through the tables on phpMyAdmin and I don't see it anywhere else 11:35 kados cool 11:35 kados ok ... I'm gonna grab a bite to eat and then crack this renew/reserve bug