IRC log for #koha, 2014-10-24

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
00:05 pastebot "tcohen" at pasted "idiomatic question: does this read ok?" (3 lines) at
00:25 eythian tcohen: why would you set zebra_bib_index_mode to grs1 to deprecate grs1?
00:32 tcohen good question, as the code accepts that option, i considered leaving as an option, with a "(deprecated)" tag
00:32 tcohen ah, i was talking about something else (other phrase I changed)
00:32 tcohen the one i pasted is for people upgrading and already having grs1 in the config file
00:36 tcohen night #koha
00:40 mtompset Good night, tcohen.
00:45 rangi @later tell pianohacker[…]dub-tonight-karim
00:45 huginn rangi: The operation succeeded.
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00:51 oleonard Hi #koha
00:52 rangi hi oleonard
00:55 wizzyrea omgosh.
00:56 wizzyrea what are you doing up oleonard!
00:56 wizzyrea or here, I suppose.
00:56 oleonard Not quite too late for me to be up, but definitely too late for me to be here :)
00:57 oleonard Feeling restless, so I was looking at the needs-signoff list
01:04 oleonard You know... Like normal people do on a normal evening, everything normal about that.
01:08 eythian nothing strange at all
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01:21 oleonard Okay, at least I've found a couple of things to add to my list when I'm more awake... and sober.
01:22 wizzyrea oh drunk koha-ing
01:22 wizzyrea atta boy :)
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02:28 wizzyrea drunk kohacking is what I meant.
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05:18 mtompset Have a great day, #koha wizzyrea eythian rangi. :)
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05:32 cait hi #koha
05:43 magnuse hiya cait and #koha
05:43 cait morning  magnuse :)
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05:56 alexia good morning everyone. I have a working koha installation where all of our records are entered using the Greek language. no problems so far. Recently we started adding serials in our system and I get a strange problem with the display of greek under the subscription details (in the administration koha, not the opac). In particular and only in tis page , the name of  the library set for my patron which is in greek appears corrupted as well as the name of the
05:56 alexia any ideas?
05:56 wahanui any ideas are welcome :)
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06:08 cait alexia: which version are you using?
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06:24 alexia cait: i am using version 3.12.05
06:25 cait hm it's possible that this is fixed in more current versions
06:25 cait if it's only a display problem, i wouldn't wory too much about it right now until you can update
06:25 alexia i am planning to upgrade soon
06:25 alexia ok will do that
06:25 alexia thank you! :-)
06:25 cait i know it's probabl yannoying
06:26 alexia \the cataloguers are complaining
06:26 cait yeah I understand
06:26 alexia but i will try to see what happens when i upgrade
06:26 cait but probably not much else you can do then update for now
06:26 cait maybe try in a demo install if you can reproduce the problemin a newer version too
06:26 alexia ok thanks a lot
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06:31 ashimema monrin'
06:32 cait morning ashimema
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06:48 reiveune hello
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06:54 schnydszch hi all!
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06:56 alex_a bonjour
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07:19 schnydszch if I'm not mistaken koha con 15 proposal had ended right?
07:21 rangi thats right
07:22 schnydszch rangi, our group intends to, but yeah it will be for 2016. we want koha con in the next few years in the Philippines :)
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07:24 gaetan_B hello
07:26 schnydszch the head of IT at the National Library of the Philippines has expressed his support. They're the biggest Koha user in the Philippines.
07:28 rangi maybe we can get them to upgrade to a more modern (one from this decade) at the same time :)
07:29 schnydszch haha there are actually lots of issues within the organization, that's why
07:30 schnydszch and maybe you can convince sir Ed, the head IT ;) (winks)
07:30 schnydszch aside from customizations they did with their koha ils
07:30 rangi there are lot using 2.2.8 which was about 7 years old, when they chose it .. made their own lives really hard
07:34 schnydszch yeah maybe you can convince them.. but as far as other libraries are concerned, they're more recent: ours: and that of and These are more 3.14 up
07:43 magnuse did i see somewhere that the national library has been rolling out 2.2.x to lots of public libraries? or did i misunderstand that?
07:43 rangi nope thats what they did
07:45 rangi to give you an idea why we still use the older version as per recommendation of The National Library of the Philippines (which all public libraries here in the Philippines are under, including our library) KOHA 2.2.9 is the most stable version. Is it true?
07:46 rangi so it might be a good opportunity for some FUD busting
07:46 schnydszch yeah you're right magnuse
07:47 schnydszch ..but for those asking me regarding Koha ILS, I always point them to the newer versions
07:47 rangi i tried explaining, when the national librarian was at LIANZA in nz a few years ago, but they are still spreading misinformation :(
07:47 rangi so a conference might be a way to reach a wider audience, and hopefully fix that
07:48 schnydszch maybe you can convince our NL :D
07:49 rangi already tried :)
07:49 schnydszch well aside from internal issues which i
07:50 schnydszch ..if there are other library and info professionals attending from the PHilippines, they'll take your words :)
07:52 schnydszch I've also asked that question why theirs is older version, internal issues and customizations are the problems. probably misquoted with 2.2.9 as stable version, but i dunno..
08:17 ashimema 2.2.9... wow.. that's an ass to upgrade to 3.0+
08:18 ashimema 'barge pole' and 'don't touch' comes to mind
08:18 ashimema would be good to make them understand how old and crusty that version is compared to the recent 3.x releases
08:19 ashimema hey rangi..
08:19 ashimema you had a play with using koha::objects and creating a 'nice' singular object involving borrower attributes didn't you?
08:20 ashimema is that code available to see anywhere?
08:20 * ashimema is still having a proper love/hate relationship with koha::objects :(
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09:04 cait morning #koha
09:09 magnuse kia ora cait
09:11 cait hi magnuse :)
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09:56 magnuse airnz ftw!
10:00 ashimema awesome
10:01 cait yeah :)
10:01 cait kiwis++
10:07 magnuse and they have really comfy planes too :-)
10:38 ashimema We basically decided against extending dbic result classes in the end didn't we..
10:39 * ashimema feels it's going to be a real pain implementing what would be a 3 liner in dbic in the koha::objects structure instead :(
10:51 ashimema khall about?
10:51 ashimema ping khall_away ;)
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10:56 ashimema has anyone else worked with koha::objects yet?
10:57 ashimema i'm trying to work out what the pracice should be for creating an object which joins table internally
10:57 ashimema dbic would be easy.. i'd just override a method
10:58 ashimema but I feel we're 'not meant to' directly play with db in the koha::objects.. at which point I become truly lost.
11:03 khall ashimema: not sure I'm following what you wrote
11:16 * cait waves at khall
11:16 khall mornin cait!
11:16 cait wish i could help - but hope you 2 can figure out something
11:17 khall I'm sure we can, but I think we's wandered away ; )
11:17 ashimema back now ;)
11:17 * magnuse cheers ashimema and khall on :-)
11:17 khall ; )
11:18 ashimema I have a pair of tables.. much like borrowers and borrower_attributes.. and want the object to seamlessly return a 'borrower' object that hides the borrower_attributes table
11:18 ashimema (only in my case it's ill_requests and ill_request_attributes..
11:19 khall I understand
11:19 ashimema in dbic.. I'd add a method to the IllRequest result class somthing sub get_columns { dbic join on self query goes here } to override the get columns method..
11:21 khall so, you want a way to read/write the attributes without creating another full blown object, right?
11:21 ashimema but I'm nto sure what we should do in a koha::object to achieve the same.  We can obviosly override soe methods.. but I'm less sure which ones to override... but i'm also not sure your 'meant' to include arbitrary dbic select queries in a koha::object module.. as I thought a huge amount of the point of these objects was to abstract away the reliance on dbic.
11:21 ashimema exactly.
11:22 ashimema basically.. I want my request object to seamlesly return on object which is the combination of the two tables..
11:22 ashimema rather than requiring two separate objects..
11:22 khall you could have a get_attributes method that just returns a list of available attributes for the object, and then an attribute getter and setter
11:22 ashimema sorry for the bombardment ;)
11:22 khall np!
11:23 khall I think you are right that it would be overkill to make the attributes objects unto themselves if they are as simple as they sound
11:23 ashimema so in effect recreating the 'get_columns' call from dbic and overriding it
11:23 khall ashimema: not sure if this helps, but I wrote another version of the authorised values package[…]_bug.cgi?id=10363
11:23 huginn Bug 10363: enhancement, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, In Discussion , There is no package for authorised values.
11:23 ashimema they are indeed..
11:23 khall it deals with the branch limiting table
11:24 khall ashimema: basically
11:24 wahanui it has been said that basically is all but closed/wontfix/invalid
11:24 khall so the attributes are hard coded into the database then, as columns?
11:26 ashimema they're very much like the borrower attributes table..
11:26 khall look at get_branch_limitations
11:26 ashimema it's a way to make requests flexible..
11:26 khall I understand
11:26 ashimema just reading that routine ;)
11:27 ashimema I see.. you are directly using dbic in that class then..
11:27 ashimema _avb_resultset dos a dbic call
11:27 khall yes
11:28 ashimema ack.. this would be sooo sooo muhc easier to just add to the base dbic classes :'(
11:28 ashimema well.. neater rather than easier maybe..
11:28 ashimema thanks khall anyways..
11:28 khall I would generally avoid using it in our classes, but sometimes we definitely will need to. The key is the keep the calling code from needing to be dbic aware
11:29 ashimema indeed..
11:29 khall That way, in the future we could theorectially replace dbic
11:29 ashimema It feels more and more like we're basically saying that dbic was the wrong decision by abstracting it.
11:29 khall no that I expect that to happen any time soon
11:29 khall I'm afraid so
11:30 khall *but* it does give us db portability
11:30 ashimema but dbic was certailny the right decision in my mind..
11:30 ashimema I really really wish we'de use it..
11:30 khall I agree, there are compelling arguments for both sides
11:30 ashimema dbic inherantly gives us a good amount of db portability.
11:30 khall and this appears to be the best compromise
11:30 cait maybe you 2 should discuss with tcohen some more?
11:31 ashimema I think what we'll end up with is a layer of code on top of dbic which bascially completely mimicks all of dbic and uses allot of dbic speciifc code to make it work..
11:31 khall ashimema: to me the there is a huge benefit to this system, and that's schema encapsulation
11:31 ashimema so we'll be left with bascialyl doubling the code.
11:31 khall since dbic works based on our schema, we can't use it for encapsulation
11:32 khall this actually is very good for our community development model, which doesn't work well with huge radical changes all at one
11:32 khall I'm sure you've heard this argument from me before ; )
11:32 khall the biblio/biblioitems example is what I always use.
11:33 khall We can create Koha::Biblio which can handle having two separate tables internally, and then when all the code uses Koha::Biblio, we can merge the tables in the db, and update only one file
11:34 khall so we can fix the issue over a long period of time, rather than one giant overnight change
11:34 khall which we'd have to keep chasing down new bits to fix because of new patches
11:36 khall ashimema: I could also have avoided storing my own resultset and used dbic relationships instead. Jonathans preliminary work uses them. I avoided it for simplicity:[…]4c0f70f255#diff-5
11:37 ashimema My feeling is that Koha::Object are still too tied to schema for that to really be the case.
11:39 ashimema I still like the idea of Koha::Borrower for example but I’m more and more tending towards feeling those should be written with a series of rules in mind as opposed to a base class system.. by having such a base class system we're hiding away allot of the goodness that dbic has developed over the years and encouraging devs to actualyl jsut create again all the coresponding objects from the db tables..
11:39 ashimema which is exactly what we're wanting to avoid.
11:40 ashimema dbic relationships are fantastically powerful, why not make use of them in our next level object instead of attempting to completely recreate them?
11:41 khall too many developers appear to disagree with that stance
11:42 ashimema So.. to me.. for the simple case a Koha::thing should pure adn simple be a pass through of the dbic baed object.. but for the complex case where mroe than one table is involved in an object we should create sadi object and use dbic in all it's glory to create useful methods that mimick the style of the setters/getters for other modules.
11:44 khall I don't care for the hybrid idea, I think we need to pick one style and stick with it for the sake of current and future developers
11:44 cait i think some devs were just hard about logic/database code in pl files
11:45 ashimema I totally agree.. but working with these objects and all the restirctions they seem to place is making me cry ;)
11:45 cait but both approaches could avoid that i think?
11:45 khall ashimema: you can do anything you want inside the object!
11:46 khall you can use all the fancy dbic goodness in any way you wish, it's just nicely encapsulated
11:46 ashimema Indeed.. but I'm at the point of basically forgetting about using base Koha::Object for my objects and building my own using dbic goodness to build stuff..
11:46 ashimema which goes against the point surely
11:47 ashimema pl's should be like 5 lines long.. all Logic should be in pm's..
11:47 khall right, and your Koha objects are pm's
11:47 ashimema pianohackers Services works shows a really really nice way of doing that.
11:48 ashimema feel like i'm being mean.. just trying to really understand the point of everything..
11:48 ashimema I want a clear route going forward as you say..
11:48 ashimema I'll go back to attempting to get this working now..
11:54 ashimema didn't mean to sounds so negative there..
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11:56 khall no, I understand.
11:58 ashimema in fact.. thinking about it.. your AuthorisedValue object is a pretty good exaple of what I don't like about the objects stuff..
11:58 khall I just want *something* and that something has to be something we cal all generally agree on. And afaict using dbic objects from pl is not going to happen, but I think we need to move to OO development in general, as it will greatly simply so many things about our code. And that simplification will lead to fewer bugs, and fewer barriers to entry for new devlopers.
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11:58 ashimema The only stuff you've implemented in there is actualyl related to branches and their limitations..
11:59 khall go on, not sure what you kmean
11:59 ashimema To me.. that stuff should be in the Branch object and there doesn't really need to be an AuthorisedValue object at all.. until we have somthing that's is AuthValue ONLY related..
11:59 ashimema do you get my meaning there..
12:00 ashimema but having a Koha::Object class as a base, you've been encouraged to create a AuthorizedValue object and enhance it with Branch based methods..
12:00 oleonard Hi #koha
12:01 ashimema it's the wrong way around in my head ;)
12:01 khall we can easily add Koha::Branch->authorised_values( $auth_category ) that returns an AuthorisedValues object
12:01 ashimema indeed we can..
12:02 khall I do see what you mean, but I don't think AV is intrinscly tied to branches, at least it wasn't at the start.
12:02 ashimema it's more the 'encouragement to put methods where they don't really belong' that I don't like ;)
12:02 ashimema AV isn't.. but Branch Limits (which just happen to be stored in the AV table are)..
12:03 ashimema so why polute the namespace with an AV and AVs object just to get BranchLimits..
12:04 khall it's not just to get branch limits, it just happens that most of the logic need over top the base class relates to branch limits
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12:05 khall for example, I also added a method opac_description to return the correct description for the catalog, so we don't have to spread $av->lib_opac || $av->lib throughout the templates
12:05 khall mornin tcohen!
12:05 tcohen morning khall !
12:06 khall I think you may want to read the scrollback if you can ; )
12:06 tcohen ok :-D
12:06 ashimema we're debating koha::objects and dbic again..
12:06 ashimema sorry to have dragged it all up again..
12:06 khall I'm sure you can't wait to jump in ; )
12:06 oleonard debate++
12:06 ashimema just trying to work with it and getting myself more and mroe tied in knotts.
12:08 oleonard[…]ts/don_knotts.jpg
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12:16 khall ashimema: in the end, I just want a standard object oriented model, and we need to be able to use it from pl files. If it's dbic, great, it it's Koha::Object, great. The only thing I don't want to for us to all be creating bespoke classes where every object has different methods and conventions.
12:16 ashimema we agree on that
12:17 * khall nods
12:17 ashimema if I have time I'll try to submit my ILL piece as three disperate models..
12:17 ashimema koha::objects, dbic objects and koha::services
12:18 khall if you have time, that would be really great for everyone to look at.
12:18 khall ashimema: so Koha::Services wouldn't be OO right?
12:19 ashimema Services is more of a layer on top of either Koha::Objects or DBIx::Class Objects.
12:20 ashimema though I suppose you could think of a service as an object..
12:20 khall yeah, that's what I though
12:20 ashimema /api/ill being the object and /api/ill?thing being the object method to call ;)
12:22 khall I'm all for a good standard REST model as well. That's definitely the way of the future. I'd love to see Koha be the most integratabtle ILS in the world!
12:22 khall though it probably is already ; )
12:28 ashimema tcohen.. did you see my Shibboleth writeup?
12:28 tcohen ashimema: not yet :-D
12:28 ashimema if you want me to doctor it at all todays the day.. I'm off for a week form this evening ;)
12:29 * tcohen is reading it
12:32 cait ashimema: release is after you come back ;)
12:32 ashimema :)
12:32 ashimema indeed it is.. but I'm envisaging i'll be a tad overwhelemed when I get back..
12:33 ashimema the usual post holidat million emails to go through and the like ;)
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12:43 tcohen hi cait
12:49 tcohen @wunder cordoba, argentina
12:49 huginn tcohen: The current temperature in Bo Alto de San Martin, Cordoba City, Argentina is 32.4°C (9:44 AM ART on October 24, 2014). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 41%. Dew Point: 18.0°C. Pressure: 29.92 in 1013 hPa (Rising).
13:00 druthb @wunder 77098
13:00 huginn druthb: The current temperature in WEST UNIVERSITY, HOUSTON, Texas is 14.7°C (7:59 AM CDT on October 24, 2014). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 86%. Dew Point: 12.0°C. Pressure: 30.11 in 1020 hPa (Rising).
13:04 cait oleonard++ thank you!
13:04 * oleonard has done his good deed for the day: Testing IE in three different VMs
13:05 cait oleonard++
13:05 oleonard IE doesn't not suck yet.
13:09 * oleonard overhears someone commenting, "oleonard's patches are always so easy to test, whenever I want to sign off on something I look for his!"
13:09 huginn New commit(s) kohagit: Bug 13042 - Move budget action links into menu <[…]75e331dbe2f79dd77> / Bug 11945: The script should die if the pref are not filled <[…]45283239d872f82f5> / Bug 11945: SQL syntax error in <
13:09 * oleonard overhears someone else agreeing wholeheartedly
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13:12 cait oleonard: actually that's about what i told someone today asking about easy patches for sandboxes :)
13:13 oleonard I knew I really heard it!
13:17 ashimema hehe
13:18 cait not to say that you have a very low 'fail qa' rate
13:18 cait :)
13:20 oleonard I keep getting bumped back to the web installer after logging in to the staff client
13:21 oleonard "We are upgrading from Koha to"
13:21 oleonard Run "update," log in to staff client, see staff client home page, click circulation, back to web installer.
13:22 oleonard Hm, clearing the cache seems to have fixed it? Not sure how that could be.
13:27 cait hm strange yes
13:27 ashimema tres odd
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14:26 oleonard Can someone clarify for me whether it is now okay to put English strings into scripts and modules? They can now be handled by the translation process?
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14:27 cait oleonard: it's only ok if you use soem special tool
14:27 cait are you looking at something specific?
14:27 oleonard I'm testing a patch that includes English in a script, and want to give the correct advice in my comments
14:28 cait i think if thee is an easy way to avoid it, we should still avoid
14:28 cait i see the use for command line scripts
14:28 cait hm and i can't find the bug report i wanted to point you to :(
14:29 oleonard I looked at Bug 11668 the other day but couldn't get it to work, not sure if I was doing something wrong
14:29 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=11668 trivial, P5 - low, ---, veron, Needs Signoff , Untranslatable "Total" in borrowers stats and other reports
14:29 cait i think the base bug was 8044
14:30 oleonard That patch adds lines like: print gettext("Total") . "\n";
14:30 cait but probably you need to look at 11848
14:30 cait hm and that advises to do something like that
14:32 oleonard I couldn't find anywhere in master where that was being used, so I hesitated to recommend it.
14:32 cait i am not really sure either, tcohen?
14:33 cait or maybe bgkriegel
14:33 cait i'd like to avoid that devs get too lazy, but sometimes it m ight be really helpful
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14:34 cait lazy = putting all kinds of strings in the perl scripts :)
14:34 * oleonard agrees
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15:04 reiveune bye
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15:28 * oleonard doesn't remember that we changed "other phone" to "mobile phone"
15:28 oleonard Didn't we change it from "mobile phone" to "other phone" a while ago?
15:31 jcamins Bug 12407
15:31 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=12407 major, P5 - low, ---,, Pushed to Master , phone label or data switched
15:32 oleonard Yes, but Bug 5252
15:32 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=5252 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, nengard, CLOSED FIXED, Emails & Phones On Patron Add/Edit form
15:33 oleonard We stopped calling it "mobile phone" at that time so that the patron could choose what was their primary phone regardless of what kind of phone it is
15:58 oleonard Grumpy Bug 13142
15:58 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=13142 normal, P5 - low, ---, oleonard, NEW , Change "mobile phone" label back to "other phone"
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16:19 gaetan_B bye
16:30 oleonard When I "print and confirm" a hold, the print receipt uses the notice template for Email. Is that a known bug?
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16:38 oleonard Wow, 88 bugs with "notice" in the summary.
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17:07 tcohen oleonard: did it became "mobile phone" again by mistake?
17:07 oleonard Incorrectly, I believe
17:11 tcohen @search DOM
17:11 huginn tcohen: There were no matching configuration variables.
17:11 tcohen @find DOM
17:11 huginn tcohen: I'll give you the answer just as soon as RDA is ready
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18:13 mtompset khall: *ping* you here?
18:13 mtompset Greetings, #koha.
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18:59 oleonard I signed off on Bug 6810 but then decided the prefs needed rewording so it's back to needs signoff.
18:59 huginn Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=6810 enhancement, P4, ---, amitddng135, Needs Signoff , Send membership expiry reminder notices
18:59 oleonard I think it's a really worthwhile enhancement if anyone is inclined to give it a test and sign off.
18:59 cait is it only a string change for the prefs?
19:00 oleonard Yes
19:00 cait hmm
19:00 cait tempted to skip the rule :)
19:01 * oleonard must leave you all to decide without him
19:01 cait ah
19:01 cait mean :)
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19:11 mtompset Might I get someone to look at bug 13141? Easiest to test if you have an Ubuntu and Debian git install.
19:11 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=13141 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, mtompset, Needs Signoff , Add ability for biblio_framework to be a dropdown in Guided Reports
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19:45 rangi ashimema: we decided against using dbic stuff in scripts, you are welcome to do it in modules
19:45 rangi just dont make the scripts needing to know about it
19:50 cait hola rangi
19:50 cait reading back?
19:50 cait ashimema is gone for a week of vacation now
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20:33 * wajasu doing a wheezy pkg install of 16.4
20:33 * wajasu s/16.4/3.16.4/g
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20:52 wnickc hi all
20:57 tcohen joined #koha
21:09 kmlussier joined #koha
21:49 mtompset wajasu: what happened to arch linux? ;)
21:54 tcohen hi mtompset
21:54 mtompset Greetings, tcohen.
21:54 mtompset So, KohaCon went well, I take it? :)
21:54 mtompset Nice pictures, by the way.
21:54 tcohen thanks, the guys were quite happy
21:54 tcohen so, i'm happy
21:54 tcohen we had great time
21:55 tcohen we are still waiting for a promotional spot we did about kohacon
21:55 tcohen and Koha itself ;)
21:58 tcohen does Z39.50 have some oai-set-like feature to filter the search domain?
22:16 mtompset Don't know. Sadly, I need to leave. Have a great day, #koha tcohen. :)
22:29 cbrannon joined #koha
22:29 cbrannon Anyone have any ideas why the koha installer might not login?
22:30 tcohen you're talking about the web installer, right?
22:30 tcohen on a kosher setup?
22:32 cbrannon yes.  Instructions say to use username koha_koha, but when I look in the koha-conf.xml file, the username is kohauser, and I do use the crazy long password shown in the file.
22:32 cbrannon I tried both koha_koha and kohauser for the username.  Every time I try to log in the form just clears.  No error message.
22:33 tcohen yes, you should use the <user>here</user> entry as username
22:33 tcohen and <pass>probably the long thing</pass>
22:33 cbrannon Which in this install is kohauser.  So I use that username and password, and all it does is clear the form.
22:36 cbrannon I know it is actually using that xml file, because if I rename it, web installer breaks.  So, it isn't pointing to some other file somewhere.
22:39 cbrannon Nevermind.  I was looking at the wrong username and password.  Sheesh!  Sorry tcohen
22:40 eythian hi
22:40 wahanui hello, eythian

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