IRC log for #koha, 2013-08-30

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
00:16 dcook I can never remember which bugs bgkriegel opened for the marc framework updates...
00:16 dcook bug 5858
00:16 huginn` Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=5858 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, bgkriegel, Pushed to Stable , Update default MARC21 framework to Update No. 16 (April 2013)
00:16 dcook bug 9826
00:17 huginn` Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=9826 normal, P5 - low, ---, bgkriegel, Pushed to Stable , Missing fields in MARC21 authority framework
00:26 dcook rangi: You about?
00:26 dcook Actually, I'll ask this as an open question...
00:27 dcook Is it possible to import "marc21_framework_DEFAULT.sql" into any framework or just into the default framework, when imported via the GUI?
00:27 dcook Since the SQL itself is hardedcoded just for the default framework..
00:33 wizzyrea if what you are trying to do is duplicate the default framework so you can do awful thigns to it, I might suggest exporting the default framework, then reimporting that export file
00:33 wizzyrea onto another framework you've created
00:33 dcook I'm thinking of importing the "marc21_framework_DEFAULT.sql" as another framework
00:33 wizzyrea then yea, export -> import
00:34 * dcook should've read your comment before replying, lol
00:34 wizzyrea preferably from a default framework you haven't modified yet :)
00:34 dcook Mmm, but my question does it work?
00:35 dcook If you're using an SQL file, it explicitly mentioned the framework code ''
00:35 wizzyrea I haven't ever had a problem with importing one
00:35 dcook Maybe when you export from the GUI, it uses columns and doesn't reference the frameworkcode at all then
00:35 dcook That would make sense..
00:35 * dcook takes a look at the export
00:36 wizzyrea I haven't ever tried to do it from the included sql files, I always just export/import/modify
00:36 dcook still has the frameworkcode ''..
00:36 dcook What format do you use?
00:36 wizzyrea sql usually
00:38 dcook Whoa...fancy black magic...
00:38 jcamins The time has come to make a half-batch of gluten-free dessert.
00:38 dcook GF \p/
00:38 dcook Errr \o/
00:38 jcamins What variety?
00:39 dcook Delicious?
00:39 jcamins Hehe.
00:39 jcamins Probably cookies.
00:39 jcamins But that doesn't narrow it down much.
00:39 wizzyrea almond coconut macaroons
00:39 dcook You can tell I'm only the prep cook in our kitchen..
00:39 wizzyrea with apricots.
00:39 wizzyrea chocolate coated if you're feeling fancy
00:39 jcamins Nah, macaroons I actually don't have to worry about.
00:39 jcamins My guest is providing macaroons.
00:39 dcook "_parseSQLLine" ftw
00:40 wizzyrea macaroOns or macarons?
00:40 jcamins macaroOns.
00:40 wahanui macaroons are tasty, but slightly less than cohesive.
00:41 jcamins Hey, I think I may have been the one who said that.
00:41 wizzyrea :)
00:42 wizzyrea[…]&position=16%2F47 < vaguely what I'm thinking of
00:42 jcamins I should probably do something very simple, since what I want is to figure out whether I like this flour mixture.
00:42 dcook marc history?
00:42 dcook marc status?
00:42 dcook marc status is
00:43 dcook Oh..
00:43 jcamins What flour mixture you ask?
00:43 jcamins This is a good question.
00:43 dcook wizzyrea: Could you do that for me?
00:43 dcook I always forget that link, but it's a handy one
00:43 jcamins Once I work that out, though, I'll need to test it.
00:43 jcamins marc status?
00:43 wahanui marc status is
00:43 jcamins ^^ it worked. wahanui remembers all
00:44 wizzyrea he doesn't always answer when he learns something
00:44 dcook Mmm
00:44 dcook marc history is
00:44 dcook marc history?
00:44 wahanui marc history is, like,
00:44 dcook sweeet
00:45 jcamins How much sugar should I put in?
00:46 jcamins Crowd-sourced gluten free cookies! Yay!
00:46 dcook Ahhh, wizzyrea's already posted a new RDA framework up on the wiki
00:46 dcook All the sugar!
00:46 wizzyrea >.>
00:46 wizzyrea <.<
00:46 wizzyrea you'll want to check it though
00:46 dcook Dinger, I was hoping to drop it there :p
00:47 wizzyrea well yours might be better, who knows
00:47 dcook Oh, I don't have one really
00:47 dcook Well, maybe one or two, but I haven't used them in a while
00:47 * wizzyrea just added the 264 + subfields
00:47 dcook Ahhh
00:48 wizzyrea on top of the 7xx ones that rangi added
00:48 dcook In that case, I might have a better one somewhere..
00:48 dcook I can't remember what else the RDA framework was missing but it was missing something other than the 264..
00:49 wizzyrea i had a cursory look, I didn't see anything else that was obviously missing
00:49 jcamins A good raison d'être?
00:49 wizzyrea but omitting the 264 was a bit of an oversight
00:50 jcamins Not nearly so much as failing to come up with a good reason for the new "framework" in the first place.
00:50 wizzyrea but no biggie as things are meant to be iteratd
00:50 dcook iteration! :D
00:50 * wizzyrea only desires to make librarians not say "Koha doesn't support RDA" which would be a lie.
00:50 dcook Agreed
00:51 dcook Frameworks + XSLT. Done
00:51 dcook Well...
00:51 jcamins I don't know, iteration seems kind of pointless... after all, we don't need a purse made out of a sow's ear, no matter how well-shined it is. :P
00:51 wizzyrea now displaying and doing stuff with those fields... that's different
00:51 dcook We could possibly do more with indexing now...but...
00:51 dcook wizzyrea: True.
00:51 * dcook says imitating that wassup ad from the other day.
00:51 wizzyrea I didn't say we had perfect support. But we can at least ingest and store RDA
00:52 dcook jcamins: Sow's ear?
00:52 dcook wizzyrea: No one offers perfect support though. Hence iterative design :)
00:52 jcamins dcook: "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."
00:52 wizzyrea he's saying that we shouldn't have to support RDA at all because it's a stupid thing
00:53 wizzyrea which I agree with, generally
00:53 dcook Well...
00:54 wizzyrea but at the risk of alienating our client base - it's rather better to at least appear to give a damn about their standards. Even while advocating for better ones.
00:54 dcook I suppose that's the thing, eh?
00:54 dcook It might be a silly standard, but it's a standard.
00:54 wizzyrea tis a very fine line
00:54 dcook So we need to support that standard, while advocating change.
00:55 dcook It's like the IE thing.
00:55 dcook I would never use IE, but the fact that lots of our clients are forced to makes me really want to support it.
00:55 wizzyrea well what we really need, is for people who do data to be at the table with the cataloguers
00:55 dcook Well...I might whinge about supporting it, but I see the necessity.
00:55 dcook Who do data?
00:55 wizzyrea because cataloguers do... cataloguing. Computer scientists do data.
00:56 dcook I do wonder a bit who leads these debates
00:56 wizzyrea people who wrangle data, people who create information storage schemas.
00:56 dcook Are they cataloguers? Managers?
00:56 dcook Directors?
00:56 wizzyrea bureaucrats?
00:56 dcook Probably
00:57 dcook I haven't followed the listservs much
00:57 * dcook glances at jcamins
00:57 dcook I suppose at the end of the day you have to wonder what it's all for
00:57 dcook Hypothetically, the user, right?
00:58 dcook I suppose "the user" is a multiheaded beast though
00:58 dcook Much like cataloguers really
00:58 dcook Some just want to know the procedure for transcribing the data. Others want it "their way". Others want it "the right way".
00:58 * dcook shrugs
01:00 wizzyrea anyway it's stupid and ought to die
01:00 wizzyrea but I fear we are stuck with it for now
01:01 rangi in my defence 264 was only proposed at that point
01:02 wizzyrea ^^ exactly
01:02 dcook Fair enough :)
01:02 dcook I think there are others missing in the 3xx fields and maybe some missing subfields
01:03 rangi be rangi
01:03 wahanui Send a patch!
01:03 rangi :)
01:03 dcook I'm going to upload one that one of our libraries (who has a great cataloguer) has been using
01:03 dcook hehe
01:03 rangi the main thing i came to realise is
01:03 rangi 'your cataloguing standards are bad, and you should feel bad'
01:03 rangi which translates to
01:03 rangi 'friends don't let friends use RDA'
01:03 rangi ie
01:04 dcook lol
01:04 rangi im incredibly unlikely to ever voluntarily do work on it
01:04 dcook RDA is also your cataloguing standards are bad, and you should feel bad
01:04 wahanui okay, dcook.
01:04 wizzyrea @quote add rangi: The main thing I came to realise is -- 'Your cataloguing standards are bad, and you should feel bad' - which translates to - 'friends don't let friends use RDA'
01:04 huginn` wizzyrea: The operation succeeded.  Quote #273 added.
01:04 dcook I love that phrase...
01:05 dcook I wonder how proposed the 264 field...
01:05 dcook s/how/who/
01:05 dcook Because iirc there probably isn't anything about it in RDA itself
01:06 dcook But I probably wouldn't voluntarily do work on it either
01:07 dcook Mostly because...I have no idea what needs to be done/what people want to be done
01:07 dcook One of those take it as it comes sort of things
01:07 rangi yeah
01:07 rangi thats the major thing
01:07 wizzyrea nobody, NOBODY has had a single idea about how to best use this new data we're collecting
01:07 rangi ok, you are sticking this data in fields
01:08 rangi now what
01:08 wahanui now is good time with holidays coming up
01:08 rangi oh thats right
01:08 rangi NOTHING
01:08 wizzyrea and the rest of it is "stop abbreviating things so that people who speak english can understand this"
01:08 rangi don't mind me, ill be over here on the internet, you keep playing with your tape drives
01:08 * rangi might be jaded
01:08 * dcook crosses his fingers and hopes the upload works
01:09 rangi wizzyrea: speaking of english, RDA has built in bias
01:09 wizzyrea yay
01:09 rangi ie, media types being words
01:09 rangi you cant have that
01:09 rangi thats just dump
01:09 rangi dumb too
01:10 dcook For several reasons
01:10 dcook Maybe a little jaded :p
01:11 dcook I like how the Gender field is repeatable and allows for transitions, but...that's not really for useres
01:11 dcook users*
01:11 wizzyrea You know what is for users? Showing things they care about.
01:11 wizzyrea Showing them things that help them pick the right thing.
01:11 dcook rangi: I imagine a lot of people didn't use the codes for media types either though.
01:12 rangi yep
01:12 dcook wizzyrea: True true
01:12 dcook I suppose the idea of user-centered design is still pretty new
01:12 dcook To libraries
01:12 wizzyrea there are kind of two competing purposes for cataloguing - one is capturing everything there is to know about a manifestation of a work, the other is helping people find that work. Sometimes they overlap... sometimes they don't
01:12 dcook I suppose it's not necessarily the whole focus either
01:13 dcook From an academic/philosophical perspective, the idea is to fully describe the item
01:13 dcook To capture all the data as accurately as possible
01:13 dcook Which is quite another thing to displaying it
01:13 * dcook really needs to read wizzyrea's words before typing himself :p
01:13 jcamins Hmmm.
01:14 dcook You're much more clear and concise than this guy :p
01:14 dcook Actually, I think the purpose of cataloguing is probably the capture
01:14 wizzyrea I doubt that
01:14 * dcook tries to remember his lifecycle of the record
01:14 dcook Access is really more in our jurisdiction
01:14 jcamins I think this cookie dough needs more emulsifier.
01:14 dcook Although we need to have good data to work with
01:14 wizzyrea MOAR EGGS
01:15 wizzyrea one thing that has always bugged me
01:15 wizzyrea is how libraries think that borrowers need to see all of the data they know
01:15 wizzyrea surprise, they don't!
01:15 jcamins Is the fact that xanthan gum is hard to find?
01:16 dcook Well, few ILSes show all the data in a record
01:16 dcook But the data they do show is often laid out very strangely...
01:16 dcook jcamins: Maybe it's difficult to get to Xanth?
01:16 dcook I think a tornado works iirc
01:16 wizzyrea it would be SO helpful to do user testing on what people need in varying types of institutions
01:16 jcamins lol
01:17 dcook wizzyrea: True true. More universities are doing that sort of testing as well, apparently.
01:17 dcook The librarians are often called..."assessment librarians" or...
01:17 wizzyrea uni is totally different from public though
01:17 dcook Something else I can't remember
01:17 dcook Indeed
01:17 wizzyrea is different from a law library
01:17 wizzyrea is different from a corporate library
01:17 * dcook misses the law libraries...
01:18 dcook Unis are the ones with the most resources for it though
01:18 wizzyrea is different from a primary or secondary school library even.
01:18 dcook The rest don't tend to have the time or resources for it
01:18 dcook Which is a bit counter-intuitive in a way...
01:18 dcook How do you not have resources to find out what your people want...
01:18 wizzyrea they're spending too much on ILS licenses :P
01:18 dcook YES!
01:18 wizzyrea and the ILS companies aren't doing the user testing either
01:18 dcook Couldn't agree more
01:19 wizzyrea they depend on the libraries to tell them what to do
01:19 dcook And the libraries tend to say "The system can only do X"
01:19 wizzyrea or they demand software to solve their human problems with technology.
01:19 dcook It's like I was saying the other day. Do we just accomodate libraries or do we try to guide them as well?
01:20 dcook To a degree, we can try to do both, but do any of us have the ability to do comprehensive user testing?
01:20 dcook Being all things to all people, we can't
01:20 dcook Yeah, human problems with technology...those are my least favourite demands
01:20 wizzyrea heh no. You'd have to get a partner in each constituency
01:20 dcook This is why I think libraries need to be more ambitious
01:20 dcook Stop wasting time over the capitalization of that word, and reach out to your users
01:21 dcook Gather requirements, do user testing, figure out how to give the best service possible
01:25 wizzyrea there is also a bit of fear of success.
01:27 dcook How do you mean?
01:31 drnoe_away left #koha
01:33 jcamins Hmm.
01:34 jcamins Not quite right.
01:39 mtompset joined #koha
01:39 mtompset Greetings, #koha.
01:40 dcook get mtompset
01:40 * dcook ruminates on how to write unit tests
01:40 mtompset Test::More is your friend.
01:40 dcook Yeah, I'm taking a look at Galen's blog at the moment
01:41 mtompset looking at simple tests already in Koha is helpful too.
01:41 dcook I think this one is going to be somewhat complex though
01:41 dcook I need to add an entry to the database, retrieve that entry, then query Koha's OAI-PMH server, insert a bunch of stuff into the database, and then...
01:42 mtompset oh... scary unit test..
01:42 dcook Probably retrieve that stuff as well
01:42 mtompset haven't hit that level of complexity yet.
01:42 dcook I told magnuse that I'd post my stuff up on Bugzilla but...
01:42 dcook Without a test it won't be any good
01:43 * mtompset nods, "The pains of development."
01:43 dcook Perhaps the pains of learning as well
01:43 dcook But growing pains aren't all bad
01:43 * dcook enjoys being tall despite the nights of agony growing up :p
01:43 mtompset Hey, it isn't like you could explain to me how the search results determine the number of items to return in the OPAC search, could you? ;)
01:44 dcook O_o
01:44 mtompset I'm trying to make sense of the number it is returning.
01:44 mtompset If I count lost items, checked out items, and items available. I get something way higher than the number given.
01:45 dcook Bad math? :p
01:45 dcook No idea.
01:47 dcook Hmm, jcamins's batch.t might lead the way...
01:47 dcook For me that is
01:48 * dcook stares at the test a bit
01:50 dcook Hmm, I don't appear to have Test/WWW/
01:51 * dcook tries to install locally
01:51 * dcook hopes nothing explodes
01:52 dcook That's not a good sign...
01:53 dcook Booo...
01:54 jcamins You should know that Batch.t doesn't work on master.
01:54 dcook That's also useful to know
01:55 dcook Thanks :)
01:55 jcamins The logging in doesn't work anymore.
01:55 * dcook ponders this
01:55 dcook I think all I need is an ability to send a HTTP request
01:56 dcook I assume I need Test::WWW::Mechanize for that?
01:57 jcamins In that case, it'll do fine.
01:57 jcamins Yeah.
01:57 * dcook starts up the VM
01:57 dcook I suppose the way to do this would be to use...Test:::WWW::Mechanism to send the HTTP request and get the result...
01:58 mtompset jcamins: I'm looking back at the facets search problem again after taking a break from it.
01:58 dcook Then create the necessary tables, fill them up, then drop them after the test?
01:58 jcamins mtompset: poor guy.
01:58 mtompset Can I say curses? :)
01:58 jcamins dcook: probably.
01:58 dcook jcamins: Hmm. Thanks.
01:58 dcook mtompset: Which problem is that?
01:59 mtompset if an item is hidden, it is still counted, and the facets for it are displayed.
01:59 dcook Ahh
02:00 dcook That would impact the whole thing that cait and I are talking about as well
02:00 mtompset what was that?
02:01 dcook Basically that facets are always shown for all items for all bibs in the search results
02:01 dcook So if you click "Location A" facet, you'll still see a "Location B" facet, because your search results contain a bib that has an item with "Location  B" even though it doesn't fit with the "Location A" limit
02:01 dcook If you could solve that, that would be awesome ;)
02:02 dcook Which reminds me...cait said I should talk to you, jcamins, about DOM indexing. But...I'm not going to bother you about it right now
02:02 mtompset If I solve my problem. that would become a trivial thing
02:02 dcook I'm sure the solution would cover both situmations
02:02 dcook Yes, the m was intentional...:p
02:02 wizzyrea is that a word I should look up?
02:03 dcook Apparently urban dictionary has a result for it
02:04 dcook I'm not sure I fully agree with it though
02:04 dcook I know other languages have slang as well, but I still imagine it must be hell learning English...
02:06 dcook write a unit test now or sometime in the future...
02:06 dcook Perhaps better to have a decent prototype first...
02:06 dcook Yet, new knowledge...
02:07 jcamins Write the unit test.
02:07 jcamins It makes it faster.
02:07 dcook That's what I'm thinking in theory
02:08 dcook I imagine trying different data and database config would be way easier with a test
02:09 dcook git++
02:09 dcook ssh++
02:09 dcook I guess now that I have my code on the VM, it's a good chance to try it all out..
02:14 dcook Hmm...
02:19 dcook All the things...
02:22 dcook No Test::WWW::Mechanize on dev server...
02:22 dcook But it is on the VM...
02:22 dcook But now the VM can't find C4...even though I'm exporting the same variables that are set in apache..
02:25 dcook Ok, so I'll run everything as root I guess..
02:27 jcamins That seems like a bad idea.
02:27 dcook Agreed
02:28 dcook But I get permission denied errors whenever I try to run a cronjob on the VM, since every Perl module outside of Koha has a user and group of root
02:32 dcook Hmm, this bidirectional clipboard doesn't seem to work..
02:33 dcook Basically couldn't open the koha-conf.xml and permission denied at...XML/SAX/
02:33 dcook Ah...
02:33 dcook Because I'm an idiot
02:34 dcook Although...
02:34 wahanui although is, like, mine 2.3.2 or 2.3.3
02:34 dcook So I have one user for my Git
02:34 dcook One user for my dev site...
02:34 dcook I have them linked with Gitify
02:35 jcamins Oh, yeah, you're running it as the wrong user.
02:35 dcook But if I'm my Koha user...I won't be able to run from my git
02:36 dcook I suppose I could change the git group
02:36 edveal joined #koha
02:36 jcamins I'd just change the permissions on koha-conf.xml, probably.
02:36 jcamins Your cron jobs should be running as the Koha user, though.
02:36 dcook True, but this is just for development
02:36 dcook Actually..
02:37 dcook I imagine the cronjobs would be run as root
02:37 dcook Ordinarily
02:37 dcook Because root would be the only one with access to usr/share/koha, right?
02:37 jcamins The cron jobs provided by the packages are run with koha-foreach.
02:38 jcamins But if you're doing custom cron jobs that can't be managed, you would run them as the Koha user. Or, at least, I would.
02:38 jcamins I don't know what you mean... everyone has access to /usr/share/koha. You're not editing the files from cron jobs.
02:38 jcamins I hope.
02:39 dcook O_o
02:39 dcook I'm just working in the git at the moment
02:39 dcook When I look in /usr/share/koha, everything is root owner and root group
02:39 dcook I haven't touched it since I installed the packages
02:40 jcamins I don't understand why that's a problem.
02:40 dcook Probably because it's not
02:40 dcook I'm just being silly
02:40 * dcook realizes now
02:41 dcook But now I'm trying to remember what my koha user's password is
02:41 jcamins It doesn't have one.
02:41 jcamins You've been using sudo. ;)
02:42 dcook I haven't really been using this thing much at all to be honest
02:42 dcook I've just changed branches in the git
02:42 dcook If I tried to switch to my koha user, it prompts for a password and won't take no for an answer..
02:43 jcamins sudo su - koha-koha
02:43 jcamins Then you enter in your password.
02:43 jcamins Or just use koha-shell.
02:44 dcook But that's cheating :p
02:44 jcamins Use koha-shell.
02:44 jcamins I always forget that we have that now.
02:44 jcamins No it's not.
02:44 jcamins Your Koha user should not be able to log in at all.
02:44 jcamins No password = no possibility of remote login.
02:44 dcook It seems that they do have a password. We're just bypassing it by logging into it from root
02:44 dcook Ahhh
02:44 dcook Or is it *
02:45 dcook Use koha-shell as root then?
02:45 dcook And it will automatically switch to the koha user
02:45 jcamins Right. sudo koha-shell myinstancename
02:46 dcook Hmm, Debian didn't like that
02:47 dcook Or maybe those are warnings rather than errors..
02:48 mtompset jcamins: How many things should be listed per page?
02:49 jcamins mtompset: however many the user asks for.
02:49 dcook Cool. sudo koha-shell myinstance name....then use the git as the koha
02:49 jcamins Or are configured.
02:49 mtompset how do you know what is configured or asked for?
02:49 dcook system preference, me thinks
02:50 jcamins Look at the existing code to see how it figures it out?
02:50 mtompset OPACnumSearchResults, I think.
02:58 mtompset Ah, that's why I'm all confused... when there are hidden items on a block of 20, there aren't 20 items put out.
03:00 mtompset okay... dumb question...
03:00 wahanui somebody said dumb question... was koha-latest.tar.gz correct?
03:00 * mtompset smirks.
03:01 mtompset Shouldn't every page have the same number of records, regardless of what is hidden or not hidden (lost, suppressed, hidden, checked out, etc.)?
03:01 dcook Ideally
03:01 jcamins Yes it should.
03:02 jcamins Unfortunately, doing that is non-trivial.
03:02 dcook ^^
03:02 mtompset Then non-trivial is what I'm going to do. This is annoying!
03:03 mtompset I should get the search results, and then filter them, BEFORE returning the set back to some other routine.
03:03 jcamins Yes, exactly, except that won't work.
03:03 mtompset So that the pagination should be trivial, find the 20*x location, and go.
03:04 mtompset okay, why won't it work? conceptually it does. :)
03:04 jcamins Because I want to go to page 10.
03:05 mtompset okay.
03:05 jcamins Heck, even going to page 2 is a problem.
03:05 mtompset right, because it isn't a simple go to position 20*x
03:06 mtompset does the search intentionally paginate before returning the results?!
03:06 jcamins Yes.
03:06 rangi this will fix it
03:06 rangi
03:08 mtompset Oh blast it.. I see what you are saying.
03:08 dcook Indeed, computer games
03:08 dcook hehe
03:11 dcook Blearghh
03:13 mtompset Wait... so the _ZOOM_event_loop() get all the results, not just a paginated subset?
03:13 mtompset ^so^so does^
03:14 mtompset Or is it really sadly, just a paginated subset?
03:15 mtompset The built hashref is paginated, but I thought the results[] were everything.
03:16 jcamins It fetches all results, but that's not the problem.
03:16 jcamins If you want to see what the problem is, increase the number of records used for faceting, and do a search that returns thousands of results.
03:18 dcook I'm silly...I don't actually need Test::WWW::Mechanize...
03:20 mtompset Oh shoot! Building an array of items for the entire set to filter is going to be a horrendous performance hit.
03:20 mtompset More thinking to do. :(
03:20 dcook Hence the paginating me thinks
03:20 jcamins Yes, exactly.
03:21 mtompset Okay... next thought...
03:21 mtompset Does it matter if page 1 listed 20 items, but items 19 and 20 from page 1 go onto page 2?
03:21 dcook[…]pi/search/facets/
03:22 dcook I haven't actually read that, btw
03:22 mtompset And now I get the OMGWTFBBQ! now. :)
03:23 jcamins dcook: if we used ES we wouldn't really be having this problem, would we? :P
03:26 dcook My suggestion was for mtompset to figure out a way to use Elasticsearch instead of Zebra :p
03:26 mtompset I'm not going that far!
03:29 mtompset I don't like the differing sized pages, but perhaps that is an acceptable trade off.
03:31 dcook Blah unit tests...
03:31 dcook I'm sure you'll be worth it, but you're killing me here
03:31 * mtompset doesn't see any blood. ;)
03:32 dcook It's internal bleeding :p
03:33 dcook Maybe I'll cheat at first and work backwards...
03:33 dcook I'm still not sure how I'm going to make any of this work..
03:34 mtompset You're going to two-time on unit tests? ;)
03:34 dcook Two-time?
03:34 dcook Ahhh
03:34 dcook Haven't heard that expression in a long time
03:34 dcook Well, I'm going to use my current database
03:34 dcook Get the whole thing working
03:35 dcook THEN worry about emulating the database
03:35 dcook Or creating and dropping tables and all that jazz
03:35 jcamins Yeah, that's absolutely the way to do it.
03:35 jcamins Baby steps.
03:35 mtompset I was trying to make a bad pun on cheating (two-timing) and unit (single).
03:36 * jcamins starts importing the thesaurus, 1965-1966, and 2009-2012 data files from ERIC.
03:36 dcook Yeah, I'm thinking baby steps are the way to go, or I'll just feel overwhelmed.
03:36 dcook Ah, nice one, mtompset :p
03:36 dcook jcamins will one day possess all the ERIC
03:36 jcamins Bwahahahaha!
03:37 mtompset dcook: Not really, if I had to explain it. :P
03:37 jcamins Actually, I have all the data files, but I'm not sure my import procedure actually works so it seems foolish to import all 68 years.
03:37 dcook I can be a bit too literal and unfunny at times. Sometimes jokes fall flat with me :p.
03:37 dcook jcamins: Makes sense
03:39 mtompset Thanks for trying to save my face, dcook.
03:39 mtompset dcook++
03:39 * jcamins calls it a night, and leaves the import to run.
03:40 dcook night jcamins
03:40 mtompset Bye, jcamins.
03:40 dcook Thanks for the help
03:42 dcook Test::More says to look at Test::Simple...Test::Simple says to look at Test::Tutorial
03:42 dcook Oh...
03:43 dcook[…]Test/Tutorial.pod
03:43 dcook[…]Test/Tutorial.pod
03:43 dcook Ack
03:43 dcook AHHHHHHH!!!! NOT TESTING! Anything but testing! Beat me, whip me, send me to Detroit, but don't make me write tests!
03:43 dcook *sob*
03:43 dcook Besides, I don't know how to write the damned things.
03:43 dcook ^^
03:45 wizzyrea http://kohadevreactions.tumblr[…]-unit-tests-first
03:46 dcook hehe
03:46 dcook I had forgotten about that one
03:46 dcook No time like the present to learn
03:48 dcook Digging this tutorial so far..
03:58 dcook Think I might run into testing problems with some of the more complex methods though...
03:58 dcook Mmm maybe not..
04:16 mtompset dcook: are you sure you didn't mean bend me, shape me? ;)
04:19 mtompset Have a great day (24 hour period), #koha.
05:09 dcook Test::More onto trying to test...
05:16 dcook Hmm Test::More doesn't seem to process "die" or "exit" within a test...
05:16 dcook I does...but it doesn't report it as a failed test
05:17 dcook I does...but it doesn't report it as a failed test
05:17 dcook ..
05:17 dcook Wrong window..
05:24 cait joined #koha
05:28 cait rangi++
05:40 cait kenza++
06:35 dcook Writing tests is both easier and harder than I imagined...
06:37 * magnuse waves
06:37 dcook hey ya magnuse :)
06:37 magnuse dcook: yeah, it's rather interesting, isn't it :-)
06:37 dcook It is!
06:37 dcook Especially db_dependent tests..
06:39 dcook Ooooh....
06:39 dcook I just remembered that I can use that rollback because I"m not using Test::WWW::Mechanize..
06:40 dcook Hmm, maybe...
06:40 wahanui i heard maybe was a momentaneous error
06:41 dcook Well, only one way to find out ;)
06:42 reiveune joined #koha
06:42 reiveune hello
06:42 dcook salut reiveune :)
06:42 cait hi reiveune
06:43 reiveune \o/
06:43 cait bbiab :)
06:50 dcook "I know the synthesizer, why don't I use the synthesizer which is the sound of the future"
06:55 paul_p joined #koha
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06:56 dcook Interesting...
06:57 wahanui interesting is probably sometimes good and sometimes bad
06:57 dcook Even when you do $dbh->rollback();, your autoincrement still increases
07:02 lds joined #koha
07:05 gaetan_B joined #koha
07:06 gaetan_B hello
07:07 dcook Hmm...looks like dropping a table doesn't get rolled back either...
07:07 dcook hey ya gaetan_B :)
07:08 dcook Or maybe it failed before it could rollback..
07:08 dcook Because my table is defo accidentally nuked
07:08 dcook Good thing I backed up the create statement...
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08:02 dcook I am so confused...and totally shouldn't be at work on a Friday night...
08:06 dcook Ahh, I'm blind
08:06 dcook Really...really...blind
08:26 * magnuse somehow doubts that
08:26 dcook Well, perhaps not blind
08:26 drojf your typing looks ok
08:26 dcook I thought a file was in a different directory
08:26 drojf :P
08:26 dcook I know a few blind people who type quite well :p
08:27 drojf heh i was going to write about that. sure, but you would not of you became blind all of a sudden ;)
08:27 dcook I took poetry with a guy whose computer spoke to him unbelievably quickly. He was able to listen and type and still pay attention to everything. He was amazing.
08:27 dcook I am a fairly decent touch typist...
08:27 dcook :p
08:27 drojf alright, you are blind then
08:27 drojf if you insist
08:27 drojf :D
08:27 dcook Nah, just staring at a screen for 9.5+ hours
08:28 * dcook is  more crazy than blind
08:28 dcook I learned how to write unit tests today though, so that was good
08:28 * magnuse thinks that sounds quite plausible ;-)
08:28 magnuse dcook++
08:28 magnuse bigtime!
08:29 dcook Also learned that dropping a table during a transaction...not a good idea :p
08:30 magnuse especially if you drop it on your toes ;-)
08:30 dcook hehe
08:31 dcook I've already hurt myself enough for one week
08:31 dcook So yeah...if I'm lucky...maybe I can get an OK prototype on Bugzilla early next week
08:31 dcook Well, running into issues with the last bit of the test...
08:31 dcook But maybe I'm trying to do too much
08:37 dcook Bloody croak...
08:50 kf joined #koha
08:50 kf hi #koha
08:51 dcook hey kf
08:52 magnuse guten tag kf
08:53 kf i forgot tolog into #koha
08:53 kf that's.... worrysome
08:53 magnuse yeah!
08:56 * dcook thinks the unit test can only do so much...and then perhaps human intervention has to play a role...
08:56 dcook On that note, I'm off!
08:56 dcook have a good Friday/weekend everyone :)
08:56 dcook yay unit tests!
08:56 kf bye dcook
08:56 kf have a nice weekend
08:56 dcook They're way easier than I thought. I'm going to use them more going forward...
08:56 dcook thanks, kf :)
08:57 kf unit_tests++
09:05 magnuse nice way to end the week :-)
09:08 paul_p joined #koha
09:11 kf magnuse: hm? :)
09:12 magnuse to discover that something is easier than you thought
09:13 kf ah :)
09:48 magnuse heh[…]it-house-in-dome/
09:52 kf looks nice
09:52 kf but I imaging building that was not cheap
09:54 magnuse probably not
09:54 magnuse i think they have done quite a lot of the tuff inside the dome themselves
10:59 kf joined #koha
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11:45 kf quiet friday :)
11:49 collum joined #koha
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11:53 magnuse kf: sshhh...
11:55 elemark joined #koha
11:55 kf lol
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12:29 kf hi drojf
12:31 oleonard joined #koha
12:33 oleonard Hi #koha
12:36 Dyrcona @later tell gmcharlt MARC::Charset 1.35 looks good to me. Do you plan to put it on CPAN, soon?
12:36 huginn` Dyrcona: The operation succeeded.
12:37 tcohen joined #koha
12:38 Dyrcona And by "looks good," I mean I tested it with a 19K bib import.
12:42 tcohen morning #koha
12:50 kf good morning tcohen
12:51 tcohen hi kf
13:00 druthb o/
13:06 tcohen hi druthb
13:23 tcohen license?
13:23 wahanui license is probably GPLv3+.
13:23 tcohen license text?
13:23 mtompset joined #koha
13:24 druthb mornin', mtompset. :)
13:24 mtompset Greetings, #koha druthb.
13:24 * mtompset continues into the spiral that is C4::Search
13:24 mtompset The scary thing is... it is becoming more and more clear.
13:25 mtompset it?
13:25 wahanui it is changing a default behaviour
13:25 mtompset scary thing?
13:27 mtompset Okay... question, if we are going to paginate less than perfectly (for speed purposes), can we get Zebra via Zoom to only return the poorly paginated data set? Do we need to return the full set for anything other than counts?
13:27 druthb wahanui:  botsnack C4::Search
13:27 wahanui :)
13:28 druthb wahanui:  botsnack Tums      #you'll be wanting that later.
13:28 wahanui :)
13:28 paul_p joined #koha
13:29 mtompset Do facets have to be for the entire data set or just the current page?
13:29 tcohen wahanui: license text is[…]uidelines#Licence
13:29 wahanui OK, tcohen.
13:29 mtompset You probably should leave the written address too.
13:31 druthb Follow not the path of too-closely examining C4::Search, for chaos and madness await thee at its end.
13:31 druthb hm.
13:32 druthb wahanui:  C4::Search?
13:32 wahanui[…]751872/hE32ABD60/
13:32 druthb lol
13:34 jcamins mtompset: facets haave to be computed according to the user's settings.
13:34 jcamins *have
13:37 kf tcohen: check the coding guidelines- i think it's there
13:37 mtompset tcohen: tweaked the license section to have the snail mail address and be -w65 before "# "'s
13:37 mtompset kf, it is. I think tcohen  was merely training wahanui.
13:37 mtompset license text?
13:37 wahanui license text is[…]uidelines#Licence
13:38 kf mtompset: we want the whole result set.
13:38 kf mtompset: not saying that is the default right now.
13:38 jcamins kf: that's not going to be possible without rewriting the way Koha does faceting.
13:38 kf jcamins: he asked what i want...
13:38 kf well not me, but i thik that's the way users expect it to work
13:39 mtompset Yes, it looks like a faceting re-write.
13:39 kf looking at vufind and other interfaces with really strong facetting
13:39 druthb Sinner, go not down this path!
13:39 druthb jcamins got too deep into C4::Search, and you see what's become of him!
13:39 mtompset "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." :P
13:40 mtompset I made sure to quote, lest you feel slighted via the pronoun use. :)
13:40 druthb :P
13:40 jcamins mtompset: I don't think you understand the scope of the rewrite necessary in order to change faceting.
13:41 mtompset sadly, I am becoming aware of it.
13:41 druthb We're talking Pyramid of Giza here.
13:41 druthb Big one.
13:41 jcamins mtompset: I don't think you are. In order to facet the entire resultset, you have to remove all faceting from inside Koha.
13:42 mtompset and put the faceting where in Zebra?
13:43 jcamins Probably.
13:43 mtompset (or whatever search engine the user has selected -- since solr is also coming up)
13:44 kf mtompset: solr is also tied into the search rewrite
13:44 wahanui okay, kf.
13:44 kf so practically a bit stuck i guess
13:44 mtompset good point, kf.
13:44 kf the problem is finding funding for big architectural projects like this
13:44 kf with laying the groundwork not being of so much use for libraries in the beginning
13:45 kf i still hope that jcamins will be able to finish the rewrite some day
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13:54 mtompset *sigh* And that's enough head pain for the day... let's go on to an easier problem.
13:59 druthb The coming war in Syria?  The global economy?  The Meaning of Life, the Universe and Everything?  Those are easier.
13:59 * druthb is in a saucy mood today.
14:10 mtompset The coming unjustifiable war in another country (Syria)? ;)
14:10 mtompset No, I'm going back to documentation.
14:12 mtompset alfredo sauce? ;)
14:12 * oleonard votes pesto
14:12 mtompset druthb is pesto saucy? Mmmm.... don't think so.
14:15 druthb :P
14:15 druthb Something…feisty.  With jalapenos in it, maybe.
14:18 tcohen why shrink it mtompset?
14:19 mtompset Because it looks ugly in my window? :P
14:19 mtompset And 65 is a good number for making it look okay in all windows?
14:20 tcohen 80 is de default for *nix terminals
14:20 mtompset Yes, but if you email it to someone, some mailers to weird wrappy things around 70.
14:21 mtompset ^to^do^
14:21 * druthb does weird wrappy things. She's in a silly mood.
14:22 mtompset Perhaps a boneless BBQ chicken with pesto sauce wrap type thing? ;)
14:24 tcohen mtompset
14:24 wahanui mtompset is disliking finding bugs while testing.
14:24 tcohen have a mission for u
14:24 tcohen :-D
14:24 mtompset perhaps...
14:25 tcohen tab completion
14:25 wahanui tab completion is sometimes unpredictable
14:25 tcohen i'm testing building a package to see it gets installed
14:25 tcohen after success, i'll post a preliminary patch
14:26 tcohen you will enjoy testing
14:26 tcohen (it covers a small subset of the koha-* commands)
14:26 * oleonard also has a fence what needs whitewashin'
14:26 mtompset no guarantees.
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14:30 mtompset Testing my instructions now.
14:33 tcohen is eythian the only one QAing packages-related stuff?
14:34 kf i have done smaller ones - but he can pass them yes
14:34 kf i think he is back at work next week
14:34 kf tcohen: it's basically i sometimes don't know how to test... but i can build packages. if there is something you want me to look at, maybe you can walk me through sometime
14:35 tcohen thanks kf
14:35 tcohen my tab completion work depends on a patch that adds --sip and --nosip to the koha-list command
14:35 tcohen i can of course remove the tab completion for sip-related stuff
14:36 tcohen but it would be a pity
14:36 tcohen magnuse signed that patch already
14:42 kf yeah, throwing away things woudl not be nice
14:42 kf i am away for the weekend and next week will be pretty stressful
14:42 kf so i won't be available for testign until the week after next
14:43 kf or the weekend after this weekend
14:43 tcohen bug 10003
14:43 huginn` Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=10003 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, tomascohen, Needs Signoff , koha-* scripts (packages) should provide tab-completion in bash
14:45 tcohen ok, i'm happy to finally send that patch
14:46 * tcohen wants some friday cookies with mate
14:46 kf :)
14:46 tcohen mtompset, i'll test your instructions as soon as you attach the patch
14:48 mtompset Thanks. I just don't want to do that until I have tested it and iron'd out any parts that require too much thinking.
14:54 kf bye all
14:54 kf left #koha
15:00 mtompset in the source install instructions, should DEV or STANDARD be first?
15:01 tcohen standard, of course
15:01 mtompset standard = tarball.
15:01 mtompset dev = git
15:01 mtompset (for the most part)
15:01 tcohen i think instructions fr developers should not be included actually
15:02 tcohen I mean, i'd remove the whole git part
15:05 mtompset but the document as a whole should be install agnostic, cutting out DEV (or STANDARD) would bust that concept.
15:06 tcohen i'd target the instructions for people downloading the release tarball
15:07 tcohen and include a (really small) comment on how to get the sources using git
15:07 tcohen but i'd prefer just a link to the relevant wiki page
15:07 tcohen because you will end up messing with branch selection instructions
15:08 tcohen people trying to develop have other resources and capabilities
15:08 tcohen that are far beyond a basic INSTALL file
15:09 mtompset I'll contemplate this some more... back to testing.
15:16 mtompset Do the installation instructions need to provide information on how to import records? or add interface languages?
15:18 tcohen interface languages are relevan
15:18 tcohen t
15:18 tcohen because you need to install the language for being able to install default data on the needed language
15:21 tcohen i mean it should be done before the webinstall step
15:21 tcohen and it is really important
15:24 tcohen @later tell rangi looks like bash-completion should work on zsh
15:24 huginn` tcohen: The operation succeeded.
15:24 * tcohen is in lobby-mode
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15:31 mtompset I added a link to the wiki as part of the steps, because the installing additional languages is an evolving process.
15:33 paul_p joined #koha
15:43 reiveune bye
15:43 reiveune left #koha
15:45 tcohen au revoir
15:46 gaetan_B bye !
15:52 vfernandes joined #koha
15:52 vfernandes hi
15:53 vfernandes Patroncards PDF diacritics - how to solve it?
15:53 vfernandes patroncards in koha 3.12 aren't working correctly
15:53 tcohen is there a bug filled for that?
15:54 vfernandes only for labels PDF
16:01 cait vfernandes: yes multiple bugs
16:01 cait and a possible solution that needs a bit more work
16:15 tcohen liw, r u around?
16:32 oleonard-away dcook said he added another RDA framework to the wiki but I don't see it
16:33 oleonard Oh, did he replace the one that rangi added?
16:33 oleonard Okay, yeah he did.
16:34 oleonard The more my catalogers learn about RDA the more they (and I) hate it.
16:35 oleonard ...but if they want to be able to work with records others have cataloged with RDA then we have to have an updated framework to deal with it :(
16:45 mtompset What if one cataloger's framework for RDA doesn't match another's framework?
16:45 mtompset (actually, the question is broader than just RDA too)
16:46 oleonard Then they view and edit records differently
16:46 jcamins Then at least one of them has a framework that is objectively wrong.
16:46 mtompset could they both be objectively wrong and a third one is actually the correct one?
16:46 oleonard jcamins: It sounds like with RDA a lot of objectivity has been taken out of the picture
16:47 oleonard mtompset: No it's the fourth one that is correct.
16:47 jcamins oleonard: yeah, but not in terms of frameworks.
16:47 * mtompset laughs, "You have a point, oleonard."
16:47 jcamins In the Koha sense, there is a framework which is objectively correct, i.e. it has all the valid tags.
16:48 * oleonard wonders if dcook's better approaches that ideal
16:48 jcamins Presumably, since he added to rangi's.
17:16 liw tcohen, you rang?
17:27 tcohen liw
17:28 tcohen i wanted to ask u for some advice on implementing the 'status' switch fr the koha-common init script
17:28 tcohen i wrote a patch for 10624
17:28 tcohen bug 10624
17:28 huginn` Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=10624 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, Needs Signoff , koha-common.init should implement the 'status' option switch
17:29 tcohen it just prints the status of the relevant processes that *should* be running
17:35 liw tcohen, that looks good to me
17:35 tcohen ok
17:35 tcohen thx
17:59 oleonard Doesn't look like the stuff is working anymore.
18:01 jcamins oleonard: really?
18:01 wahanui really is off now
18:01 jcamins That's unfortunate.
18:01 oleonard Not working for me anyway jcamins
18:02 jcamins Works for me.
18:02 jcamins Only about 1% of their data is actually available via API, apparently.
18:03 oleonard Oh, duh, the request was being blocked.
18:05 jcamins That would explain it.
18:06 drojf joined #koha
18:06 drojf evening #koha
18:14 druthb drojf!
18:14 drojf1 joined #koha
18:15 drojf hm
18:15 drojf that bad karma kicks me out of irc thing again ^^
18:16 oleonard drojf: If someone gives bad karma you get kicked out?
18:16 oleonard drojf_getting_kicked_out_for_bad_karma--
18:16 drojf if i talk bad about someone i get kicked out ;)
18:17 drojf @karma vimal
18:17 huginn` drojf: Karma for "vimal" has been increased 2 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 2.
18:17 drojf vimal--
18:17 drojf i hope that is the right one
18:20 drojf i have a lot of bad mood to spare today if anyone needs some
18:22 cait ew
18:22 cait what happened?
18:22 * cait hands drojf gluten free beer cookies
18:23 drojf i don't know. broke my headphones again and the world is full of idiots and psychopaths
18:23 drojf that sounds like the best kind of cookies :D
18:24 jcamins I made gluten free cookies yesterday that came out okay.
18:24 drojf the falafel cookies? ;)
18:24 jcamins Hehe.
18:24 jcamins Yes.
18:24 jcamins They were a bit short on emulsifier.
18:25 jcamins I'm going to try and buy xanthan or guar gum today.
18:25 jcamins Otherwise I shall wing it.
18:25 jcamins Actually, that's not entirely true.
18:25 jcamins I'm winging it no matter what.
18:25 jcamins Otherwise I won't even have that tenuous connection to best practices.
18:28 jcamins What kind of cookies should I make for tomorrow?
18:29 drojf maybe i should make cookies too. it looks like it's going to be christmas soon
18:30 tcohen jcamins: should persmission to delete cover images be tied to CAN_user_tools_upload_local_cover_images permission?
18:30 drojf hm. no butter
18:31 jcamins tcohen: that makes sense to me.
18:31 jcamins drojf: avocado?
18:31 jcamins Sourcream?
18:32 jcamins Bacon fat?
18:33 drojf there might be lactose free sour cream i wanted to try. or i already did
18:33 drojf vanilla icecream ;)
18:34 jcamins Nah, that won't work so well.
18:34 jcamins It'll all melt.
18:38 drojf heh
18:39 jcamins Wait... you don't have butter but you need lactose-free sour cream?
18:40 drojf i don't understand the question :)
18:40 jcamins You said you were not baking cookies because you don't have butter.
18:41 jcamins You also said that you wanted to try the lactose-free sour cream, which implies that you should be avoiding lactose.
18:41 jcamins So I'm trying to figure out why you would use butter in cookies.
18:43 * oleonard wonders if some libraries pick the normal over the XSLT detail view in the OPAC so that they get the little author/subject pop-up menus
18:44 jcamins I really like those author/subject pop-up menus.
18:44 jcamins But since XSLT is otherwise so far superior, I do without.
18:44 oleonard Too hard to implement them in XSLT, or just not a priority?
18:44 jcamins Both.
18:45 jcamins It wouldn't be easy, and it's just not enough of a priority for me to consider working on it.
18:49 oleonard jcamins: I wonder if it wouldn't make just as much sense to have that pop-up menu be a modal window?
18:50 oleonard jcamins: It's always the same items, right? Just with different checkboxes checked?
18:50 jcamins That is correct.
18:50 jcamins A modal makes sense to me.
18:51 oleonard I just hate working with a different implementation of a menu-style thingy when there are "built-in" options
18:54 oleonard Anyway... Something to tinker with after my Labor-free weekend
18:54 oleonard See ya #koha
18:54 tcohen api?
18:54 wahanui api is expected to be flexible enough to let us add other search engines later
18:54 tcohen svc api?
18:54 wahanui svc api is[…]ha_/svc/_HTTP_API
18:54 tcohen sweet :-D
19:24 Dyrcona @later tell gmcharlt I see MARC::Charset 1.35 is on CPAN already. I didn't see it there two weeks ago when you messaged me about it.
19:24 huginn` Dyrcona: The operation succeeded.
19:33 pastebot "tcohen" at pasted "jcamins:" (16 lines) at
19:34 jcamins Seems fine to me.
19:34 jcamins Bonus points if you add a unit test. :)
19:34 tcohen unit tests for a svc script?
19:35 cait tcohen: if you happen to mock a cgi object i would be interested in stealing that :)
19:35 jcamins tcohen: no, I meant for DelImage.
19:37 tcohen jcamins, can I take control of bug 7813? didn't notice it was assigned to you
19:37 huginn` Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=7813 enhancement, P3, ---, jcamins, NEW , Add ability to delete local cover images
19:37 cait take control :P
19:37 cait i like that
19:37 tcohen i plan to do svc script returning  a JSON + ajax
19:37 jcamins Please do.
19:38 jcamins As I said on the bug, I'm not working on that.
19:38 tcohen does it sound bad in english?
19:38 cait not to me :)
19:38 jcamins It would be better to say "a svc script returning JSON + AJAX"
19:38 tcohen :-P
19:38 tcohen was talking about "taking control"
19:39 jcamins Oh.
19:39 jcamins Then yes.
19:39 tcohen it doesn't sound good?
19:40 jcamins No, that sounds fine.
19:40 jcamins The only thing that didn't was your placement of "a." :P
19:40 tcohen oh
19:41 tcohen glyphicon-remove overlay for removing?
19:41 jcamins And that was perfectly understandable, I just thought you were having trouble figuring out why the sentence sounded a little odd. ;)
19:42 tcohen oh, its too late!
19:42 tcohen leaving now, bye #koha, nice weekend!
19:43 cait bye tcohen :)
19:44 tcohen i've pushed to my github just iun case anyone wants to check it
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22:42 mtompset @later tell drojf Actually, that was the wrong one, as far as I know.
22:42 huginn` mtompset: The operation succeeded.
22:44 mtompset Confusingly, there is VKV and VKM.
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