IRC log for #koha, 2010-10-12

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
00:00 chris yeah, you guys are doing fine
00:00 chris the phone hasnt even rung!
00:00 paul yet! - just composing a long email as we speak
00:01 paul gotta go, catch you later
00:01 chris spotya later
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00:02 chris paul and 2 of his librarians are coming to kohacon
00:07 slef cool
00:13 chris i do like brians comment on nicoles blog
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00:41 ebegin I'm trying to figure out what the autorised value is used for on when we edit a MARC Field (not a subfield).
00:42 ebegin The screen displays: if you select a value here, the indicators will be limited to the authorized value list
00:43 ebegin But selecting an autorised value from the list doesn't change anythink in my cataloging screen... ?!
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01:26 darling history page probably wants an update -
01:26 darling for the 3.2rc
01:27 darling good afternoon koha peeps
01:28 robin darling: no, I think the history page ends at the perfect location. On a high note :)
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01:32 yhager Has anybody seen wajasu around here recently? I found him on the irc logs talking about an arch package for koha - and I would like to contact him on this
01:32 robin @seen wajasu
01:32 munin robin: wajasu was last seen in #koha 6 days, 21 hours, 22 minutes, and 34 seconds ago: <wajasu> would be nice to have the utf8 label thing solved.  my librarian edits records to not have diacritics and prints a lebel then edits things back. slow and errorprone workaround.
01:33 yhager robin: cool, thanks. Can munin pass messages when he arrives? (like tell wajasu bla bla bla)
01:33 robin @later tell yhager sure can
01:33 munin robin: The operation succeeded.
01:34 yhager robin: thx
01:34 yhager heh, it works
01:34 robin :)
01:34 yhager @later tell wajasu I am working on an AUR package for koha, and all the perl deps. Let me know if you want to cooperate. yhager at yhager dot com
01:34 munin yhager: The operation succeeded.
01:35 robin yhager: I do the debian packages, if that's useful for anything.
01:36 robin you might be able to reuse/modify as needed the scripts that are in there.
01:45 yhager robin: most of the work is getting those perl deps packaged. I could use the deb scripts for the other parts though. link?
01:46 robin yhager: they're all in the debian/ subdir in git.
01:54 logbot joined #koha
01:54 Topic for #koha is now Happy 3.2.0 Release Candidate day
01:59 yhager robin: but this should be an interactive step, shouldn't it? or do you just take the defaults (I am sorry, dunno how to read deb packaging scripts)
02:00 robin It's debian magic, I'm not completely sure what it's doing on the inside. I think it probably is telling the makefile to be non-interactive.
02:03 yhager robin: ok, so it probably just accepts the defaults. I was just wondering what is the "right" way to do this
02:04 robin yeah, I think the defaults are all appropriate, and if you need something changed, you can do it as part of the package.
02:09 yhager robin: great, thx
02:24 darling yhager, by the way - pocket sized arm style koha <- very slick
02:24 darling looking forward to that
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02:52 Amit heya chris
03:02 robin from another IRC channel:
03:02 robin <sneakums> Dumont: ptfs is <reply>
03:02 robin (where Dumont is an infobot)
03:02 robin word seems to be getting around :)
03:02 chris yup
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05:46 CGI491 hello it's me again eugene from the Philippines just installed koha on windows please help me connect from a remote computer using the admin interface i was able to connect but only the opac interface. thanks
05:46 CGI491 hello it's me again eugene from the Philippines just installed koha on windows please help me connect from a remote computer using the admin interface i was able to connect but only the opac interface. thanks
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06:13 CGI966 how do i remotely connect to the admin interface of koha on windows?
06:14 CGI966 how do i remotely connect to the admin interface of koha on windows?
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06:44 chris heh
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06:47 chris nicole is loved in africa :)
06:48 larsw on the whole planet!
06:48 chris :)
06:48 larsw until FTL is invented we don't know if she's loved in other solar systems, though, but I would not bet against it
06:48 paul_p hello world
06:48 chris did you see this larsw[…]-action-day/1021/
06:48 paul_p chris & larsw mainly ;-)
06:48 chris heya paul_p
06:48 larsw I am entirely sure the national library of aldebaraan is using Koha...
06:48 chris hehe
06:49 larsw hi, paul_p
06:49 larsw chris, nope, hadn't seen that
06:50 paul_p larsw, really ? so that's true. Because I know for sure that the KRL (Klingon Research Library) uses Koha too...
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06:50 paul_p s/that's  true/that's two/
06:50 chris which reminds me, nengards husband friend was going to translate the opac into klingon
06:50 larsw "Koha: the intergalactic library system" :)
06:51 chris i must remind him about that at kohacon
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06:51 larsw apropos Klingon,[…]/10/msg00103.html
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06:53 magnus D-7
06:54 chris :-)
06:55 paul_p D-7 1/2 for me :)
06:55 paul_p s/me/hdl & me/
06:55 chris larsw: thats excellent :)
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07:02 magnus in one week i will have finished the first flight and be waiting for the next one...
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07:07 ivanc good morning #koha
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07:08 magnus g'day ivanc
07:08 ivanc hi magnus
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07:12 magnus @wunder bodo norway
07:12 munin magnus: The current temperature in Bodo, Norway is 5.0�C (8:50 AM CEST on October 12, 2010). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 76%. Dew Point: 1.0�C. Windchill: 0.0�C. Pressure: 29.98 in 1015 hPa (Steady).
07:12 magnus snow on the highest peaks for the last couple of days here, time to head for sunnier climes soon!
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07:23 larsw[…]619ce953ad3080efb
07:23 larsw robin, maybe you could add a comment to the link above to indicate the current status of Koha Debian packaging?
07:25 chris good idea
07:25 chris theres still an itp floating around somewhere too
07:25 chris maybe slef knows where it is, i think he commented on it last
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07:26 chris[…]12/american-talk/
07:30 magnus :-)
07:45 chris magnus:
07:45 chris anything you tag #kohacon10 should show up there
07:46 magnus chris: cool!
07:47 chris im hoping to recruit some ppl to do some running commentary during the days too
07:47 chris for the people who cant make it
07:47 magnus is it "just" twitter or are there other sources?
07:50 chris it only watches twitter automatically, but i can add up to 30 'panelists' who can type into it, and anyone can make a comment
07:50 magnus ah, i see
07:51 magnus i'll probably be twittering a lot...
07:52 chris :)
07:56 magnus chris: ig my memory serves me right there has been talk about video and streaming, how is that going?
07:57 magnus s/ig/if/
08:01 chris and for ppl who dont want to deal with flash or whatever its using
08:01 chris[…]t_code=7bd531d726
08:01 chris yeah, not gonna happen
08:01 chris way too expensive to do live streaming in any useful manner
08:01 chris but we do plan to video all the presentations, with the speakers permission that is
08:02 magnus cool
08:03 magnus and put them on youtube or vimeo or something?
08:05 chris something like that
08:05 chris ogv files for download maybe
08:05 chris ill leave that to the smart people who understand that stuff
08:06 magnus good plan! ;-)
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09:44 janPasi hi all
09:44 janPasi would someone have time to help me a bit with Koha's search?
09:47 slef Hi. I expect it depends how.
10:01 janPasi Well...
10:03 janPasi for example this:[…]biblionumber=3190 can be searched without typing the accents on characters
10:04 janPasi however this one cannot:[…]biblionumber=3051
10:05 janPasi the latter biblio seems to be "odd" in some other ways too. It has ended up in our system through Z39.50 and it doesn't have anything on 003 field
10:06 janPasi if i try to fill a value to 003 field and save, i get "production mode trapped fatal error"
10:06 janPasi it also has some really weird characters in 710a field
10:07 janPasi but it cannot be fixed because it refuses to be saved
10:07 janPasi that's problem number one
10:08 slef If you get "production mode trapped fatal error" then check the error log.
10:08 janPasi i'm not sure how many biblios like this there are in the system at the moment, but it has gone quite unstable
10:08 slef I think accent problems are to do with zebra search engine configuration.
10:08 slef Are you sure you have everything running in utf-8?
10:09 janPasi well, yes and no
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10:09 janPasi our system is pure utf-8, but we have some biblios from the national library
10:09 kmkale hi all
10:09 janPasi and that's a real strange bird
10:09 slef Also if the biblio ended up in your system through Z39.50, it might be that the MARC record is corrupt, or that a wrong encoding was declared for it (Z39.50 does not disclose encoding in-band).
10:09 slef All this is from memory and my memory is not great.
10:09 janPasi national library uses a Voyager system and they form the accented characters weirdly
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10:10 slef Can you get to the biblio through the librarian cataloguing editor?
10:10 janPasi techically it's utf-8, but...
10:10 janPasi yep, i can edit it, but not save
10:11 Fred Hi, got a question about and the way it uses patrons emails
10:11 slef janPasi: Can you look at its MARC view and see any corrupt characters?
10:11 slef Fred: I can't help for an hour. Perhaps someone else can.
10:11 janPasi slef: yes i can
10:12 slef janPasi: you need to delete or correct the corrupt chars. Worst case, it will need the MARC in the database cleaning and I don't have a nice tool for that.
10:13 janPasi that's a bit what i was afraid of... :(
10:13 slef (I've an idea how to make a nice tool for that, but no funding.)
10:13 janPasi the funding is always the problem :D
10:13 slef (I really should open an enh request describing it, so either it will get funding or someone else will just make it.)
10:13 janPasi but how can i correct the characters when i cannot save the biblio?
10:14 slef play with mysql directly (marc and marcxml columns in biblioitems)
10:14 janPasi i have an edited version with corrected characters on my screen, but there is the "production mode trapped fatal error" problem
10:15 slef check the error log
10:15 slef and/or change DebugLevel system preference while you solve this
10:15 janPasi ok, i'll see about that
10:15 janPasi so how can i access zebra's config?
10:16 janPasi i also need to make it search some fields that it doesn't search by default
10:16 Fred the script seems to work fine but it does not put email address into 'to_address' table...making sendings failed
10:19 slef janPasi: /etc/koha/zebra in a standard installation IIRC
10:20 janPasi ok, thx slef :)
10:21 magnus or /etc/koha/zebradb to be precise
10:23 slef oh well, I was close :)
10:25 janPasi well... i think i would have been able to figure that out :D
10:25 janPasi this is in error log: [Tue Oct 12 13:11:04 2010] [error] [client] [Tue Oct 12 13:11:04 2010] Wide character in null operation at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5​.8.8/MARC/Charset/ line 96., referer:[…]=3051&amp;amp;op=
10:26 janPasi does it say anything to you?
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10:28 slef janPasi: yes, bad encording :-/
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10:28 slef encoding
10:29 slef janPasi: I think if you look at mysql biblioitems.marcxml where biblionumber=3051, it will be truncated.
10:30 janPasi how can i do that?
10:30 janPasi i'm logged in mysql as root and using koha database
10:30 janPasi but how can i see that?
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10:32 slef janPasi: select marcxml from biblioitems where biblionumber=3051; again, this is from memory.
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10:32 janPasi i could pastebin the output, hang on
10:34 janPasi
10:35 slef janPasi: OK, I was wrong, that looks complete.
10:35 janPasi seems ok by me too
10:35 janPasi could it be a problem in marc leader?
10:35 janPasi this is what i have in 000: 01111ncm a22002897i 45000
10:36 janPasi this is 008: 970702s1992    ru            000 | rus
10:36 slef janPasi: so you need to edit 245$a 260$a and $b 300$a 500$a 505$a 710$b 740$a at least before saving it.
10:36 janPasi but those fields contain only valid utf-8 characters, i think?
10:38 janPasi yep, it seems that way to me
10:38 janPasi 710a is faulty in the pastebin, but it's fixed on my screen
10:39 janPasi and so is 245b
10:40 slef janPasi: ok... pastebin claimed to be UTF-8 :-/
10:40 slef janPasi: I doubt this is a leader problem but I'm not sure what it is without looking more closely, sorry.  A wide character error is almost always an encoding FU.
10:41 janPasi i think it gets confused with that record because it has mixed charset
10:41 janPasi or something
10:42 magnus janPasi: i think i have seen errors like this that i solved (?) by editing the leader
10:42 magnus my notes tell me that "00181     2200085   4500" worked but "     nam a22     2  4500" gave errors similar to yours
10:43 magnus i have not gotten to the bottom of that problem yet, though...
10:43 slef I'm bowing out. Happy hunting.
10:44 janPasi ok, thanks for all your help :)
10:44 janPasi where exactly is character encoding defined in the leader?
10:44 janPasi i.e. which position/value?
10:45 slef @marc LDR
10:45 munin slef: unknown tag LDR
10:45 slef @marc leader
10:45 munin slef: unknown tag leader
10:45 slef @roulette
10:45 slef was kicked by munin: BANG!
10:45 * munin reloads and spins the chambers.
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10:47 janPasi the bot kicked you out, why? :D
10:47 magnus 09?
10:48 janPasi yep, it seems that way, thx magnus
10:48 magnus sorry, that was auth, this is biblio:
10:48 magnus[…]hic/bdleader.html
10:48 janPasi well that's correct then
10:48 janPasi a=utf-8
10:49 janPasi or rather unicode in general
10:50 magnus hm, i'm out of ideas, then...
10:50 magnus is now known as mag_lnch
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10:52 janPasi me too :D
11:08 kmkale any idea whether this page has been brought into new wiki?[…]ncodingscratchpad if yes where? the encoding and char.. is just a stub
11:10 kmkale the INSTALL.ubuntu* files still point to the old one which no longer exists
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11:38 kmkale I have just put some stuff in[…]cter_Sets_in_Koha
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12:05 mag_lnch is now known as magnus
12:08 * chris_n does not have enough reputation to vote on :-(
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12:23 slef chris_n: you get that far? I couldn't login. :-(
12:24 chris_n used my google openid to log in
12:24 slef my openid didn't work for me when I tried
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12:25 chris_n weirdness indeed
12:25 chris_n heya owen
12:25 owen Hi
12:28 Fred joined #koha
12:28 Fred Hello
12:29 Fred i'am back with my problems, someone could help?
12:30 munin New commit(s) kohagit: Updates to INSTALL.debian documentation for 3.2. <[…]eb4e6614c405b70b4>
12:31 * chris_n looks around for gmcharlt ;-)
12:31 owen wizzyrea++
12:33 Fred the script does not fill the 'to_address' table's part with email address from borrowers
12:33 paul_p owen, why ? (did I miss something ?)
12:33 paul_p good morning USA !
12:33 chris_n paul_p: howdy
12:33 chris_n that last commit was by wizzyrea
12:34 owen paul_p: Because she updated the installation instructions
12:36 hudsonbot Starting build 65 for job Koha (previous build: SUCCESS)
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12:37 paul_p hey, we have a new friend (hudsonbot). Hoping he will be more intelligent than some bots i've seen around ;-)
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12:40 munin New commit(s) kohagit: fix step to install Indexdata apt key <[…]28bfb0ffbdbeb2972>
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12:44 hudsonbot Project Koha build (65): SUCCESS in 7 min 55 sec:
12:44 hudsonbot Galen Charlton: Updates to INSTALL.debian documentation for 3.2.
12:46 chris_n hudsonbot: botsnack bacon and eggs
12:46 hudsonbot chris_n: great! yum yum. I just love bacon and eggs!
12:51 hudsonbot Starting build 66 for job Koha (previous build: SUCCESS)
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12:59 hudsonbot Project Koha build (66): SUCCESS in 7 min 39 sec:
12:59 hudsonbot Galen Charlton: fix step to install Indexdata apt key
12:59 slef Fred: looking...
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13:05 slef Fred: that's expected behaviour. C4::Letters::_send_message_by_email figures out the to_address from the borrowernumber.  OK?
13:09 Fred yes
13:12 Fred in fact overdue_notices seems to check correctly if there s a email address or no, but does not populate the to_address to make process_message_queue working correctly
13:13 slef Why do you think process_message_queue needs the to_address populated?
13:18 Fred cause value is null, and no emails receiving on testing, but if i write manually the address into to_adress it works fine
13:19 slef is borrowernumber populated?
13:20 Fred yes
13:20 slef Looking at process_message_queue...
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13:24 slef Fred: I can't see an obvious problem. Does status go to failed?
13:24 slef Fred: also, do you get a warning when running process_message_queue?
13:24 slef Fred: finally, what version of Koha is that?
13:26 Fred yep status go to failed but no warning message, i guess it goes to failed status cause process_message did not find any emails
13:27 Fred
13:29 slef Where did you download that version?  Anyone remind me how to translate db versions to releases?
13:29 sekjal slef: that's about the version for 3.2 beta, I think
13:29 Fred yes
13:30 slef ok, I'm looking at HEAD... I'll switch to rc1
13:31 jcamins_a slef: I think that's around beta 2.
13:31 jcamins_a Good morning, #koha
13:31 slef oh wait
13:31 jcamins_a is now known as jcamins
13:32 slef Fred: do you have an SMTP server listening on your external IP port 25?
13:32 slef Fred: I'll get you a command to test
13:32 jcamins Wait, maybe I meant alpha 2 (checking...)
13:33 jcamins I meant beta.
13:33 jcamins There was only one.
13:33 Fred mmm guess so :) was not me installing it, i am not server admin
13:33 slef Fred: try: perl -MMail::Sendmail -e 'print sendmail(To=>"your\@email.address",From​=>"your\@email.address",Subject=>"perl test email",Message=>"test")."\n"; print $Mail::Sendmail::error." - " . $Mail::Sendmail::log."\n"'
13:34 slef Fred: but replace your\@email.address with your email address, please.
13:38 Fred it works
13:41 slef ok, I'll return to looking
13:42 Fred is it possible that is kind of being protect?
13:44 slef I don't understand the question.
13:46 slef do you know the borrowernumber?
13:47 slef try: perl -MC4::Members -e 'print C4::Members::GetFirstValidEmailAddress(1234);' replacing the 1234 with the right number
13:47 Fred ok will try it
13:48 Fred answer for email address is correct
13:52 slef ok, well if you look in C4/ you should see that is what it uses
13:53 slef possible next actions: upgrade to 3.2rc1, run process_message_queue through the perl debugger.
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13:54 Fred ok :)
13:55 Fred thanks a lot for your help!
13:56 slef no problems - sorry I can't cure it from here.
13:56 Fred no worry, i got some clues to go on
13:59 wizzyrea oh woot !  I did it right!
13:59 wizzyrea and good morning
13:59 jcamins Good morning.
14:00 jcamins I see I made it onto the quote list. :)
14:04 wizzyrea :D
14:11 munin New commit(s) kohagit: add Italian installer SQL to test cases <[…]804656e8db657bc09> / Italian installer SQL <[…]76be9b3ff1f578379>
14:18 slef I see bold as ^B so that appears to say "^Badd Italian installer..."
14:20 wizzyrea *giggle*
14:20 wizzyrea it's like the mafia of sql
14:21 hudsonbot Starting build 67 for job Koha (previous build: SUCCESS)
14:24 kmkale hi wizzyrea
14:26 wizzyrea hi kmkale :)
14:28 jcamins Yay!
14:28 jcamins wizzyrea++
14:28 wizzyrea jcamins: apply and sign off plox?
14:28 wizzyrea :)
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14:29 hudsonbot Project Koha build (67): SUCCESS in 7 min 34 sec:
14:29 hudsonbot * Galen Charlton: Italian installer SQL
14:29 hudsonbot * Galen Charlton: add Italian installer SQL to test cases
14:29 chris_n gmcharlt: botsnack brownies and icecream :-)
14:30 gmcharlt chris_n: yum yum
14:30 wizzyrea botsnack energy bar
14:31 * owen watches munin, logbot, alogalog, and hudsonbot all fight over the energy bar
14:31 chris_n wizzyrea: you have to specify which bot you are giving the snack to :)
14:31 wizzyrea AHA
14:32 wizzyrea hudsonbot: botsnack energy bar
14:32 hudsonbot wizzyrea: great! yum yum. I just love energy bar!
14:32 wizzyrea he's going to need it
14:33 owen munin: botsnack tiny crumb hudsonbot dropped
14:33 munin owen: Error: "botsnack" is not a valid command.
14:34 owen Poor munin, not even a crumb.
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14:37 jcamins Hm.
14:38 jcamins Problem with libyaz-dev?
14:38 jcamins Why did it work before?
14:39 jcamins Well, your patch works, anyway.
14:39 jcamins Looks like gmcharlt already applied it to master, so I won't send my signed-off patch to the list.
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14:40 kmkale bye all
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14:41 munin New commit(s) kohagit: add new lenny dependency libmodule-install-perl to the script <[…]b5bebe77cb562831d>
14:41 wizzyrea hrm  i didn't see it in the script from a fresh ... aha
14:41 wizzyrea that would be why
14:41 wizzyrea lol
14:41 * jcamins apparently has the ability to look a little bit into the future.
14:42 * wizzyrea marvels at jcamins ability
14:42 jcamins ;)
14:43 jcamins Do you have any trouble with libyaz-dev?
14:43 wizzyrea I need to go back and try it agian
14:43 wizzyrea again*
14:44 wizzyrea NEKLS was going to do another round of clean install testing probably this afternoon?
14:44 jcamins I ran it before and didn't have any problems, but maybe there was another change that caused problems since then?
14:44 jcamins nekls++
14:45 wizzyrea I thought someone mentioned something about libyaz yesterday...
14:45 wizzyrea I've slept since then, though.
14:46 jcamins I don't think so.
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14:49 jcamins (just checked the log)
14:49 jcamins I think it's probably just something strange with this computer.
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14:51 hudsonbot Starting build 68 for job Koha (previous build: SUCCESS)
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14:55 * chris_n reminds jcamins that there is something strange with every computer... just not the same thing with any two
14:59 hudsonbot Project Koha build (68): SUCCESS in 7 min 38 sec:
14:59 hudsonbot Galen Charlton: add new lenny dependency libmodule-install-perl to the script
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15:08 briceSanc hello
15:08 CGI608 hello
15:08 CGI608 how areu
15:08 CGI548 hi
15:09 briceSanc fine and u ?
15:09 CGI608 me too
15:09 CGI608 where are you from?
15:09 owen CGI608: Do you have a question about Koha?
15:09 CGI608 whos is koha?
15:10 CGI548 Hi I need to set
15:10 owen CGI608: If you don't know you're in the wrong place
15:10 CGI608 but i want to know plz
15:10 jcamins CGI608: Koha is an open source product. It isn't "owned" by anyone. See
15:10 wizzyrea
15:11 owen CGI548: Please note that is no longer the official site of the Koha project
15:11 wizzyrea that is supposed to be
15:11 CGI608 ah oki
15:11 CGI608 nice
15:11 CGI548 ok
15:11 CGI608 left #koha
15:11 briceSanc Hi Owen, I answered you about the bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=5281
15:11 munin Bug 5281: trivial, P5, ---, brice.sanchez, ASSIGNED, "Check in" then "Renew" checkboxes checked in the same time
15:13 CGI548 left #koha
15:14 owen Didn't mean to scare off CGI548
15:16 yhager joined #koha
15:17 owen briceSanc: I saw your comment. I'm not crazy about losing the TD click event, but I'm willing to do so if it's the only way to correct the bug
15:18 briceSanc ok
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15:35 jcamins Why isn't there an acquisitions framework by default?
15:37 jcamins Ah. bug 4955
15:37 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=4955 critical, P5, ---, henridamien, NEW, adding to basket with no item throws error
15:37 jcamins Wait, no, not that one.
15:37 jcamins Bug 3841?
15:37 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3841 normal, P5, ---, henridamien, NEW, Should have Default ACQ Framework
15:37 jcamins There we go.
15:38 slef replied to a PTFS comment on Nicole's blog... I though nengard also worked for biblibre but it's not on
15:38 nengard slef when i first left liblime both bywater and biblibre sponsored me to work on the manual - that contract ran out January 1 and I have been a ByWater employee since
15:40 slef oic, no matter, I used myself as an example to rebut the PTFSer.
15:40 jcamins How does one create an ACQ framework?
15:41 jcamins Is it just like a regular Framework, with the ID ACQ?
15:45 * owen notices the PTFS supporters never have links associated with their blog comments
15:46 gmcharlt jcamins: that's my understanding, yes
15:46 jcamins Okay, thanks.
15:47 sekjal we need a 'clone framework' button
15:47 wizzyrea ^^^
15:47 wizzyrea that
15:47 slef owen: maybe they're not allowed to have their own brai^H^H^H^Hwebsites.
15:47 wizzyrea yes
15:47 wizzyrea please
15:48 sekjal wizzyrea: added to my list... for what that's worth
15:48 wizzyrea I like your list. Things happen when they get on your list.
15:48 wizzyrea :)
15:49 sekjal :)
15:49 sekjal I'm a list-makin' kinda guy
15:52 nengard sekjal and wizzyrea - when you create a new framework it asks which one you want to base it off of - pretty much the same as cloning
15:54 sekjal nengard:  well whatdaya know?  there it is
15:54 nengard :)
15:54 * nengard is the documentation manager - which means she has clicked every possible link in Koha :)
15:54 sekjal it would just be a matter of reordering the workflow a bit
15:54 sekjal or putting the creation and duplication pages together
15:55 nengard more important to me is to see a better way to edit framework - easier deletion of fields and subfields etc
15:55 jcamins That is a really confusing way of explaining how the ACQ framework.
15:55 jcamins And that is not a sentence.
15:55 wizzyrea but I agree about editing the framework
15:55 wizzyrea it is too many clicks.
15:56 wizzyrea way, way too many
15:56 jcamins The error message it gives you about not having an ACQ framework is very confusing - it doesn't really explain what to do.
15:56 jcamins I certainly agree!
15:57 jcamins What it means by "the items framework would be used" is "anything that you have set up to display on the items tab in your ACQ framework will show up.
15:57 jcamins "
15:57 * jcamins apparently can no longer type
15:58 sekjal I'd like to see the Frameworks a) made easier to edit and b) fully govern the display behaviour of MARC data in the OPAC and staff client
15:58 jcamins I'd also like to see them support indicators.
15:58 jcamins Actually, I'd like to see everything support indicators.
15:59 jcamins (authorities, etc.)
15:59 gmcharlt sekjal: +1 to making frameworks easier to edit; I disagree about fully governing the display behavior of MARC data, as that effectively locks out XSLT or any other template language without a *lot* of special coding
16:00 jcamins What format is date acquired supposed to be in?
16:00 gmcharlt unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant by the second part of your statement
16:01 sekjal gmcharlt: yes, I understand it would be hard to use XSLT and Frameworks together.  perhaps my idea isn't the best way
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16:01 sekjal what I want is for librarians to more easily be able to choose what MARC info displays, without having make changes to the codebase (and track those changes for the rest of their system's life)
16:02 sekjal perhaps a way to upload custom XSLT, and then select amongst them
16:02 sekjal or have the governing XSLT referenced in the 942 somewhere
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16:02 gmcharlt ick (I'd rather not stick yet more presentation metadata into the MARC record)
16:02 gmcharlt but as far as managing XSLT stylesheets
16:03 gmcharlt sticking them in the database and managing them that way could be a win
16:03 sekjal gmcharlt: agreed
16:03 sekjal oh, I've got ideas about this....
16:03 gmcharlt we can use memcached during the rendering
16:03 gmcharlt to save on database lookups
16:03 sekjal but if I start rambling, I won't get any actual work done
16:04 jcamins In that case I will save the problems I see with that approach for another day.
16:05 laurence left #koha
16:07 jcamins (although I do agree that the way stylesheets are handled should be changed)
16:10 sekjal what about storing the bibliographic XML (in whatever metadata format, not just MARC), the current stylesheet used, and the output of the application of that stylesheet all in the database together?
16:10 sekjal that'd be a lot of data.... but faster to fetch than to render each time, I'd imagine
16:10 jcamins It's an interesting idea, but I think that makes it harder to share stylesheet improvements.
16:11 sekjal the code would have to automatically re-style the HTML any time the XSLT is changed
16:12 sekjal rather than the actually XSLT in with the metadata, a link out to the table the XSLTs are stored in
16:12 sekjal that's better... normal form and all
16:13 jcamins I think it would be best to compile the HTML JIT. We have 170k records, but only about 1k are going to be viewed any given month. Why rerun the other 174k?
16:14 sekjal so long as there were the proper allowances made for speed, that makes sense to me
16:14 jcamins Err, make that the other 169k.
16:14 gmcharlt sekjal: I'd rather just stick pre-rendered bib output in a cache
16:14 gmcharlt not in the database
16:14 jcamins Right now we're rendering every record every time.
16:15 gmcharlt that way you only render what is actually used
16:15 jcamins But my major objection is that if you store the stylesheets in the database, how do you merge multiple sets of changes?
16:17 gmcharlt jcamins: build in the ability to do diffs, I suppose
16:17 gmcharlt maybe the workflow would be to have a special class of system-supplied templates
16:17 gmcharlt when a library starts using Koha, they wouldn't use a system-supplied template directly, but would use a copy of it
16:17 gmcharlt then when they upgrade, the copy wouldn't be automatically overwritten
16:18 sekjal gmcharlt:  yes, just like that
16:18 sekjal have system supplied, and then local use
16:18 gmcharlt but the librarian would have the option to compare the results with any changes to the system-supplied templates
16:18 gmcharlt and apply changes, if needed
16:18 wizzyrea a la wiki revisions?
16:18 gmcharlt one thing that would help that is a abstracting some of the stuff such as generating search links
16:18 chris_n C4::Git ?
16:18 gmcharlt out of the base XSLT templates
16:19 wizzyrea (trying to imagine how that would look to a user)
16:19 gmcharlt and define a set of base template functions (e.g., koha-build-bib-link, koha-build-subject-link, etc.)
16:19 gmcharlt that are invoked by the display templates
16:20 chris_n how about template objects and link building methods?
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16:22 jcamins chris_n: i.e., replace XSLT with a domain-specific bibliographic formatting language?
16:24 jcamins That seems kind of horrifying. CSL for MARC?
16:25 * chris_n boggles at the complexity of that thought
16:26 chris_n and the thought of how to merge in improvements coming down the pipe from the main repo on a production system
16:26 chris_n recalls the nightmares of keeping custom templates in sync :-P
16:26 * wizzyrea shudders remembering her time as a template syncer
16:27 * chris_n still does time in that regard
16:27 * wizzyrea also remembers the relief of the day that 99% of the changes were converted to jquery
16:29 wizzyrea nengard: are you writing the release notes for 3.2? or is gmcharlt doing that?
16:29 sekjal idea: a centralist Koha template and XSLT library, managed by Git, that can be fetched from through the staff client
16:29 nengard wizzyrea - um - no one asked me to - i thought the RM usually did that
16:29 gmcharlt wizzyrea: I'm writing them
16:29 wizzyrea cool
16:30 chris_n sekjal: I think you'd have to get git involved somehow if the ability to merge templates were to be offered inside of the staff interface
16:31 nengard gmcharlt (or anyone) where do we stand on my comments about the privacy page in 3.2?
16:31 jcamins Yeah, git would definitely be needed.
16:31 gmcharlt nengard: we can kill it
16:31 nengard :)
16:31 nengard k
16:31 sekjal git++
16:32 chris_n hence my earlier line: C4::Git :)
16:32 jcamins And a central repository would help, but I'm not convinced that it would eliminate the problem of dealing with local templates.
16:33 * chris_n can guarantee that it would not
16:33 chris_n and there would be merge conflicts to resolve
16:33 chris_n those might drive some librarians mad ;-)
16:33 * wizzyrea is still a proponent of the wordpress widget type organization of OPAC/Staff results
16:33 wizzyrea only cached
16:34 gmcharlt that would actually be an argument for a (very, very, very simple) domain-specific language for the bib display tempaltes
16:34 jcamins Yes, merge conflicts would be a serious problem.
16:34 wizzyrea and detail display
16:35 chris_n gmcharlt: this would allow the library to "write" their "own" templates
16:36 jcamins gmcharlt: provided it was simple (e.g., object-oriented is not simple), I can see the benefits.
16:36 chris_n but would we then have to write some sort of template editor?
16:36 jcamins Definitely.
16:36 jcamins How many people have ventured to adjust the ISBD syspref?
16:36 gmcharlt chris_n: not to put *too* much abstraction, but I think, practically speaking the basis might be starting with creating a code framework that allows hooking in multiple template/render engines
16:37 gmcharlt with the initial one, for backwards compatibility, being the status quo
16:37 trea_ joined #koha
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16:37 trea_ is now known as trea
16:37 jcamins And the second one, for jcamins, being a LaTeX-based PDF renderer.
16:37 wizzyrea joined #koha
16:38 wizzyrea well that was weird
16:38 hdl left #koha
16:38 * chris_n is about finished with working with any sort of pdf stuff
16:39 chris_n the standard is too unicode unfriendly
16:39 jcamins chris_n: very sensible. Unfortunately, if you want to generate camera-ready copy automatically, PDF seems to be the way to go.
16:39 Topic for #koha is now Koha, an open source ILS: - don't ask to ask, just ask.  This channel is publicly logged.  Pastes at
16:40 chris_n jcamins: true, and it is not impossible to use in a unicode environment, just next to it :)
16:41 jcamins I'm hoping that xelatex makes it a little easier.
16:41 * chris_n had some correspondence with an engineer at adobe about the problems we encounter in Koha
16:42 jcamins nengard: is this a typo in the manual? "You will not be able to enter a contract retrospectively, the end date must be before today's date."
16:42 jcamins Under
16:42 nengard ummm
16:42 nengard it does sound that way doesn't it
16:42 paul_p left #koha
16:42 jcamins Yeah, but I'm not sure what contracts do, exactly.
16:43 nengard but I'm not sure what it's supposed to say - i think I asked biblibre folks to help me with that
16:43 trea left #koha
16:43 nengard and paul just left
16:43 nengard hmmm
16:43 jcamins Okay, well, I reported it, so now I don't have to feel bad when I forget about it.
16:43 nengard hehe
16:43 nengard i'll see if i can get some help on list
16:47 jcamins How to tell when you've spent too much time looking at your Cutter table: you decide to create a test record of "Green eggs and ham," and don't need to look at the Cutter sheet to assign a Cutter for Seuss.
16:49 jcamins (S487 for anyone who was curious)
16:51 * wizzyrea was totally curious
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16:55 slef I like this description "a collaborative community in the wild" Koha?
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17:28 jcamins wizzyrea: the link to the English manual uses the ?page_id= URL instead of a friendly URL.
17:29 jcamins The link this page, I mean:
17:29 jcamins It uses a friendly URL in the menu bar.
17:42 slef shall I try to edit?
17:42 jcamins Oh, sure.
17:42 jcamins It should be a link to[…]ation/3-2-manual/ instead of
17:43 jcamins At least, I think it should.
17:43 slef try now
17:43 jcamins Yep, all better. Thanks!
17:43 slef cool
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18:03 * collum is now having bad flashbacks of deriving Cutter numbers in Library School.
18:06 jcamins collum: you mean that wasn't the highpoint of your education?
18:08 * chris_n just uses oclc's cutter ap
18:08 chris_n very lazy, I know
18:10 jcamins chris_n: that's only possible if you use the standard Cutter table.
18:10 jcamins And have a computer...
18:10 jcamins Also, that probably requires you to have OCLC, doesn't it?
18:11 chris_n no, its a stand-alone app
18:11 chris_n and has a couple of mode iirc
18:12 jcamins The need for a computer is fairly absolute, though.
18:12 chris_n
18:13 jcamins Nifty.
18:15 jcamins Those are definitely Dewey Cutters.
18:15 jcamins (as suggested by the URL, of course)
18:21 collum When I went to Library School Gopher was the most popular app. :)
18:21 jcamins Hm.
18:22 jcamins Is there any reason to use a CONCAT with a GROUP BY clause, instead of just listing all the relevant fields separated by commas?
18:26 jcamins Huh.
18:27 jcamins 7144 versus 94 records.
18:29 jcamins That was unexpected.
18:33 briceSanc How does the translation files .po work ? Do they copy the EN folder from a template to create an fr-CA folder ?
18:35 briceSanc If the folder fr-CA already exist : What happens to the files in the fr-CA that are not in the EN folder ?
18:36 briceSanc Are they deleted?
18:40 wizzyrea I'm confused, what now?
18:40 wizzyrea (the manual url's are a mess, simply bc of the way they are integrated with wp)
18:40 jcamins wizzyrea: slef fixed it.
18:40 chris_n briceSanc: that's probably a question either for the list or chris
18:40 wizzyrea (and we're working on it)
18:40 wizzyrea What was the problem?
18:40 jcamins It wasn't in the URL.
18:40 jcamins It was the link to the URL.
18:40 jcamins From the documentation page.
18:41 briceSanc ok
18:41 jcamins Okay, that was completely incoherent.
18:41 jcamins Let me try again.
18:41 wizzyrea lol
18:41 jcamins The problem wasn't in the manual.
18:41 * wizzyrea is listening intently
18:41 jcamins It was the link *to* the manual, from the main documentation page.
18:41 chris briceSanc: not deleted
18:41 wizzyrea oh, did it not work?
18:42 wizzyrea or it was just not the pretty url
18:42 chris But they will be replaced if they exist
18:42 jcamins It was not a pretty URL, and my web browser threw a fit when it redirected.
18:42 jcamins Strangely, hitting enter on the rewritten URL worked fine.
18:43 wizzyrea does anybody know, if you anonymize the circ history for a patron, does the circ also go away from the item's circ data? or does it just not have a name
18:43 wizzyrea ohhh
18:44 chris briceSanc: that help?
18:44 jcamins Useful fact: CONCAT doesn't like NULLs.
18:44 briceSanc chris, a little, thanks :)
18:44 jcamins Which means we have >7100 probable duplicates.
18:45 jcamins (duplicate records, that is)
18:45 briceSanc chris, it's because, we made change in the fr-CA template instead of EN :S
18:45 wizzyrea err scratch that last question
18:46 chris briceSanc: oh yeah if you do that then regen the tempaltes from the po files you change will get overwritten
18:47 briceSanc ok it's what i think...crap...
18:47 briceSanc that help !
18:49 briceSanc ok, thanks for your answer, i go back to my code in order to store it in the good folder
18:49 chris Yup :)
18:50 chris_n g'morning chris
18:51 chris Its certainly morning
18:51 chris :)
18:51 chris @wunder wellington nz
18:51 munin chris: The current temperature in Wellington, New Zealand is 8.0�C (7:00 AM NZDT on October 13, 2010). Conditions: Partly Cloudy. Humidity: 76%. Dew Point: 4.0�C. Windchill: 6.0�C. Pressure: 30.30 in 1026 hPa (Falling).
18:51 chris Its gonna be a nice day weather wise too
18:52 pianohack joined #koha
18:52 chris Heya pianohack
18:52 pianohack Hi chris
18:53 pianohack How's it going?
18:53 nengard wizzyrea can you pull the manual? I fixed a typo that was confusing people
18:53 chris_n hey pianohack
18:53 nengard hiya pianohack
18:53 pianohack Hi chris_n, nengard
18:53 chris Not long to kohacon so good :)
18:53 pianohack Cool
18:53 chris How's the fbi clearance going?
18:53 pianohack I... don't really knew
18:53 pianohack *know
18:54 pianohack I'm apparently OK to work even though I didn't think I was
18:54 pianohack bureaucratic limbo, the government is good at it
18:54 pianohack How's the conference planning going?
18:55 chris Last little bits to finish off, all the big stuff is done
18:55 pianohack Cool
18:55 pianohack I shall follow along from the IRC peanut gallery
18:55 * owen goes up for a high-five with pianohack
18:56 pianohack No NZ trip for you either?
18:56 * jcamins will be conference-ing vicariously through IRC, too
18:56 chris Ahh there is
18:56 chris Which I hope to keep buzzing
18:57 nengard what's the wifi situation at the conference?
18:57 owen What does the "send questions" thing do?
18:58 nengard will it be able to handle us all
18:58 chris Sends questions to the ppl working coveritlive
18:58 chris Dunno, and maybe
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18:59 chris Not a lot I can do if it cant
18:59 jcamins You can gnash your teeth.
19:00 jcamins :)
19:00 chris :)
19:00 nengard hehe
19:00 nengard just curious
19:01 chris I've been getting good practice at that
19:01 chris owen: if you sent a question I won't see it til I get to work :)
19:01 chris It was ok at linuxconf
19:02 chris So should be
19:02 chris Which reminds me I need to call si today
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19:07 owen Wouldn't you know my attempt at fixing Bug 5281 would work in everything bug IE
19:07 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=5281 trivial, P5, ---, brice.sanchez, ASSIGNED, "Check in" then "Renew" checkboxes checked in the same time
19:07 owen IE--
19:08 pianohack ie--
19:08 pianohack @karma ie
19:08 munin pianohack: Karma for "ie" has been increased 0 times and decreased 10 times for a total karma of -10.
19:08 owen Is karma case-sensitive?
19:08 owen @karma IE
19:08 munin owen: Karma for "IE" has been increased 0 times and decreased 10 times for a total karma of -10.
19:09 owen It could be an amazing coincidence
19:09 jcamins IE--
19:09 jcamins @karma ie
19:09 munin jcamins: Karma for "ie" has been increased 0 times and decreased 11 times for a total karma of -11.
19:09 jcamins Nope.
19:09 jcamins Not a coincidence. ;)
19:09 pianohack The only problem with that output is how positive it is
19:09 pianohack ie--
19:10 pianohack For helping to make web development an impenetrable, nondeterministic morass
19:11 jcamins ie-- # for being so bad that using Safari 1 with koha seems like a good idea
19:11 jcamins pianohack: better?
19:11 tcohen left #koha
19:11 pianohack much :)
19:11 jcamins It seems to me it should be possible to get a count of items created by month.
19:12 jcamins Maybe GROUP BY YEAR(items.dateaccessioned), MONTH(items.dateaccessioned)
19:14 pianohack That should work
19:14 jcamins 1949-06?
19:14 jcamins 2001-01?
19:15 jcamins Heh.
19:15 jcamins I think we have some bad data.
19:17 pianohack at first I was all "wut?" and then I was all "oh yeah, relational databases hadn't been invented in 1949"
19:17 chris hehe
19:17 jcamins And we started creating item records in November 2009.
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20:19 wizzyrea coveritlive is pretty robust
20:19 wizzyrea a lot of news organizations use it for local events
20:20 chris yeah, i like it has the rss feed
20:20 wizzyrea sorry, i'm reading backlog
20:20 chris cos you can archive that way, also it has xml
20:20 chris export
20:28 jcamins Is it possible to push to a repository without adding it?
20:28 jcamins for example: git push
20:29 jcamins (leaving aside for a moment the fact that the URL is GitHub and not Gitorious)
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20:33 chris yes it is
20:33 jcamins Cool, thanks.
20:33 chris if that repository is set up to accept pushes from you :)
20:34 jcamins Right. That's why I say "read the documentation before trying this at home."
20:34 jcamins But I figure if that will work, it will work regardless of whether or not the person following the instruction has set up a remote with the same name I would use.
20:35 jcamins And I'm not explaining how to set up a git repository from scratch.
20:35 chris cool
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20:39 jcamins Time to go.
20:39 jcamins Have a good night, #koha
20:39 jcamins is now known as jcamins_a
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20:52 sekjal goodnight, #koha!
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21:02 munin New commit(s) kohagit: remove scratch files from the it-IT SQL files <[…]a53a1553277cc17d6>
21:03 chris go go gmcharlt
21:06 hudsonbot Starting build 69 for job Koha (previous build: SUCCESS)
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21:07 CGI879 good afternoon
21:08 CGI879 i have a problem...
21:09 CGI879 when i lend a return date is 1990?
21:09 chris what version of koha CGI879 ?
21:10 CGI879 3.0.2
21:10 darling you should probably return it immediately and hope the fine isn't too much
21:10 * darling is very helpful today
21:11 CGI879 no....this is not my problem...
21:11 CGI879 my return date is 1990 not 2010
21:11 chris whats the system clock on the server say?
21:12 chris and is it return date, or the date due?
21:12 CGI879 return date
21:13 chris so when you return the item it says it was returned in 1990?
21:13 chris or when you issue it, it says it is due back in 1990?
21:13 CGI879 yes...automatically
21:13 chris which one?
21:13 hudsonbot Project Koha build (69): SUCCESS in 7 min 32 sec:
21:13 hudsonbot Galen Charlton: remove scratch files from the it-IT SQL files
21:14 CGI879 returnt automatically in 1990
21:14 CGI879 not 2010
21:14 CGI879 why?
21:14 chris i dont know
21:14 chris ive never ever heard of that before
21:14 chris what date does the server think it is
21:15 CGI879 mm...wait
21:17 CGI879 i can set teh koha date?
21:17 CGI879 the
21:17 chris no it uses the system time
21:17 CGI879 ahhh ok
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21:19 CGI879 thanks
21:23 chris is it working now?
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21:51 jcamins_a is now known as jcamins
21:52 * jcamins would just like to reiterate his extreme lack of desire to be involved in non-profit management.
21:52 jcamins (it's quarterly report time!)
21:53 chris ahh yeah, i still vote for spi or software freedom conservancy, or hlt who has time for that :)
21:53 jcamins My cat agrees.
21:54 jcamins ;)
21:54 jcamins It's not that I don't think non-profits do important things.
21:55 chris yeah :) i just see it as smarter to make use of existing structures
21:55 chris if its good enough for debian, good enough for me
21:56 yhager_ left #koha
21:59 robin The latest SFLC podcast talks a bit about projects and the conservancy
22:00 chris oh ill hve to listen
22:01 jcamins This is my first report that I don't have to use the phrase "however, there are mitigating circumstances."
22:01 CGI879 left #koha
22:02 robin Oh no! that means there are no mitigating circumstances? :)
22:02 jcamins No, it means I have good news.
22:02 jcamins Membership is up!
22:02 chris sweet!
22:04 chris[…]+Good+Life/2337Pe  <-- some brassy goodness to help you work
22:04 yhager_ joined #koha
22:05 chris i always end up listening to dub when the sun is shining
22:05 robin insufficient metal for working to.
22:06 chris heh
22:07 robin erk, and that reminds me I forgot to bring my USB soundcard in, I think that the onboard audio on this computer is doing bad things to the sound and want to compare it.
22:32 yhager_ left #koha
22:40 slef SFLC, time to make podcasts? They're not doing enough work ;-)
22:40 slef robin: is the driver snd-pcspkr?
22:41 robin slef: heh no. But onboard sound is traditionally pretty terrible.
22:42 Braedon joined #koha
22:43 slef I know. I use some C-Media USB device for telephone even.
22:45 robin Yeah, I have a creative something-or-other, got it so I could get 5.1 from a laptop, but after using it for music, I could no longer stand the onboard let's-play-this-through-mud-first onboard HDA thingy
22:46 pianohack left #koha
22:53 slef @marc 440 a
22:53 munin slef: Title
22:54 robin that could do with providing more detail really
22:54 chris what!
22:54 chris how many titles does something need
22:54 chris @marc 245 a
22:54 munin chris: Title
22:54 robin Field 440 - Series Statement/Added Entry-Title [OBSOLETE, 2008]
22:54 chris @marc 700 a
22:54 munin chris: Personal name
22:54 chris @marc 100 a
22:54 munin chris: Personal name A surname and/or forename; letters, initials, abbreviations, phrases, or numbers used in place of a name; or a family name.
22:54 chris make up your mind!!
22:55 robin actually, the more I use it, the more the ideas behind MARC make sense. I just still don't like the implementation.
22:56 chris the basic idea is kinda flawed for today, trying to make it do FRBR is kinda hard
22:57 chris but as a storage and interchange format for 1970
22:57 chris it was fine :)
22:57 robin FRBR?
22:57 chris[…]iographic_Records
22:57 robin ah right, yeah
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23:10 mib_8fv8w is now known as jovax
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23:54 wasabi meh, tcl-nz have just switched to opendns? :/
23:55 brendan_l joined #koha
23:56 chris they have?
23:58 pastebot "wasabi" at pasted "wasabi:~ masonjames$ dig dsads" (20 lines) at
23:59 wasabi looks like it for me, tho its working erratically... which is normal for TCL

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