IRC log for #koha, 2007-07-03

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:01 paul kados : hi
12:01 paul I'm strongly against a system pref, or we will have zillions of such systemprefs.
12:01 kados right
12:01 paul but I'm for a solution that is clear for everybody
12:01 kados how can we resolve it? :-)
12:01 paul let me see how you've solved it at npl & ccfls
12:02 paul
12:02 paul I see only the branch.
12:03 paul is it ccfls specific or you want it like that for everybody ?
12:03 kados Meadville Public Library (1)
12:03 kados you see that?
12:03 paul yep.
12:03 paul but no location & callnumber
12:03 kados so that means 1 copy at MPL
12:04 paul http://catalogue.iptheologie.f[…]koha/
12:04 kados yep, location and call number aren't included
12:04 paul search chaos
12:04 kados right
12:04 kados so it's the old tabular approach
12:04 paul in a specialised library like IPT (& most of my customers I think), location & callnumber is a real + for users
12:04 kados yep
12:04 kados some libraries here too
12:04 kados just not the public ones
12:05 kados hmmm
12:05 kados what we need, are profiles
12:05 kados so 'academic' (looks like tumer's), 'public' (looks like NPL), 'special' (loooks like IPT)
12:06 paul or, best of all : an XSLT ;-)
12:06 kados yea!
12:07 paul note that if we discard the table view, we could have something that can be setup as the library want without any new code.
12:07 paul using the itemtype.summary feature.
12:07 paul but I like the academic/public/special idea
12:07 paul and I suspect it could be usefull at some other places
12:07 kados yea
12:08 kados it's difficult to imagine how to do it though
12:08 kados other than separate templates :/
12:09 kados hmmm
12:09 kados actually
12:09 kados our templates 'override' themselves
12:09 kados so what if we had:
12:10 kados public/en
12:10 kados academic/en
12:10 kados special/en
12:10 kados prog/en
12:10 paul sounds a VERY GOOD IDEA
12:10 kados and only modifs were stored in public/en
12:10 paul and very very easy to implement
12:10 paul 1 point to kados.
12:11 kados so now we just need to agree on the default for prog ;-)
12:12 paul I think we should let "prog" as it is, and, at the very end of validation just copy/paste/modify to the 3 specific templates. because if we "fork" the templates today, we will forget to report any bugfix/minor improvements to one of them, 99% sure...
12:14 kados agreed
12:15 kados paul: while you're present, quick question
12:15 kados paul: have you tried running the translation script for rel_2_2 intranet lately?
12:15 paul nope
12:16 kados for me it fails, let me find the error
12:23 kados morning owen
12:23 owen Hi kados
12:23 kados paul: sorry, on this box I have to install Locale::PO, and cpan is slow
12:26 kados paul: I'll paste the error into bugzilla, its large
12:31 paul kados: ok
12:35 kados paul:[…]w_bug.cgi?id=1366
12:35 kados owen:[…]w_bug.cgi?id=1366
12:35 paul hehe...
12:36 paul it's the classic <tmpl_if> inside a html tag
12:36 paul <input type="xxx" value="XXX" <!-- tmpl_if name="checked" --> checked<!-- /TMPL_IF -->>
12:36 paul if INVALID
12:36 kados looks the same for default
12:36 paul is INVALID for the parser
12:36 kados ahh
12:37 kados that's too bad
12:37 paul maybe. It's harmless
12:37 paul and i've fixed all of them in head
12:37 paul because <!-- tmpl_if ... -->
12:37 paul <input CHECKED >
12:37 paul <!-- tmpl_else -->
12:37 paul <input >
12:37 paul <!-- /tmpl_if -->
12:37 paul if equivalent and valid
12:38 paul just a little bit more verbose, but maybe easier to read
12:38 kados right
12:40 kados paul: what about the multibyte sequence errors?
12:41 paul probably due to :
12:41 paul Can't determine original templates' charset, defaulting to ISO-8859-1
12:41 paul default to utf-8 automatically, it should solve the problem
12:41 paul (not sure, but probably)
12:42 paul kados is discovering the pain I have with the french translation in latin1 in koha 2.2 ...
12:43 kados nope
12:43 kados same error if I change to UTF-8
13:18 owen Man, label-home.tmpl is a real beast
13:38 kados yea, suspected that
13:38 kados bbiab
14:02 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: dbs n=dan@pdpc/supporter/active/denials
14:02 paul ???
14:18 CGI572 hhh
14:20 kados hey foxnorth
14:21 foxnorth hey kados-- good to be back :)
14:22 paul hello from france foxnorth
14:28 foxnorth hey paul!
14:28 toins hello foxnorth
14:32 foxnorth hey toins--
14:32 foxnorth do i remember that you guys had gotten to work in opencataloger?
14:33 [K] *** part FreeNode!#koha: dbs n=dan@pdpc/supporter/active/denials
15:28 kados foxnorth:
15:28 kados # for Yaz Toolkit
15:28 kados     deb indexdata/sarge released
15:29 kados     deb-src indexdata/sarge released
15:29 kados add that to /etc/apt/sources.list
15:29 kados then do apt-get update
15:29 kados apt-get install libyaz-dev
15:29 kados apt-get install yaz-doc
15:29 kados apt-get install idzebra
15:30 kados owen: thanks for the updates, I'm testing them now
15:32 CGI424 Hi all, I am looking for schools that are using Koha, is there a list somewhere
15:33 kados hi CGI424
15:33 kados probably has some listed
15:33 kados also, might wanna try Marshall Breeding's ILS site
15:34 kados libwebcats i think it's called
15:34 CGI424 I will try there, I know that Saugus California school district put it in place last year, but I can
15:34 CGI424 can get to that one.
15:34 kados CGI424:
15:34 jaron
15:34 CGI424 Thanks I know that site.
15:34 kados CGI424: the libwebcats advanced search lets you pick just Koha as an option
15:34 kados there are a lot more libraries using it that aren't listed
15:35 CGI424 I do like the libwebcats, I forgot about it.
15:35 kados but such is life in a OSS app :-)
15:35 CGI424 I am working on getting the word out.  I want a lot more school libraries to look into it.
15:35 kados cool
15:35 CGI424 I have an extra school districct in Alaska that should be online before fall.
15:36 CGI424 I am updating their MARC records over the next two weeks.  I love summer vacation.
15:45 thd kados: have you seen my message on koha-devel?
15:46 kados thd: yes, thanks!
15:46 kados thd: I'll read it asap
15:47 thd kados: I compressed 3 days work into a day and a half to write that
15:47 thd kados: you should encourage people to at least read section 5 before the meeting
15:48 kados I'm reading section 5now
15:48 kados now even
15:49 kados this section s interesting:
15:49 kados "The only way to resolve the problems of the category of multiple
15:49 kados authorship for software projects is to have copyright assignments to a
15:49 kados trusted entity with a grant back of rights for authors' own individual
15:49 kados contributions. "
15:50 kados well done thd!
15:50 kados thanks for taking the time to create that doc
15:50 thd kados: I have the FSF contract for how they have done that in the past
15:51 thd kados: I guess you missed the multilingual parts
15:51 kados I glanced at them :-)
15:51 paul thd : wow... what a huge doc...
15:52 kados I think that could be an excellent starting point for a statement on copyright
15:52 paul what's the goal of this document ?
15:52 thd kados: including the part where under French law you can withdraw from an assignment
15:52 kados paul: it's to add to the discussion abotu how to annotate copyright, and to inform koha developers what the laws are so we can make informed decisions
15:53 thd paul: the hope is to clarify deep confusion over copyright law which I saw earlier in the thread and warn against potential risks in treatment of copyright
15:53 paul the meeting is in 3 hours right ?
15:53 thd yes
15:53 paul it will be hard to have ppl reading it before the meeting i'm afraid !
15:53 kados paul: 4 hours I think
15:54 kados wait
15:54 kados 3 hours and 10 minutes :-)
15:54 kados you're right
15:54 thd paul: if you read only section 5 you will have the most important information
15:55 thd paul: however, then you will miss all the quotations from French law and comparisons with other legal systems
15:55 kados thd: perhaps a email explaining that would be good
15:55 thd kados: that is right at the end of section 1
15:56 paul I think i'm fine with the french law. but i'll be able to check that i'm not wrong if I need thx to this doc ;-)
15:56 thd kados: I assume people will read enough to get through section 1
15:56 kados thd: probably not :-)
15:56 kados thd: a summary email might be a good idea
15:56 thd kados: the summary is in section 5
15:57 kados :-)
15:57 thd kados: section 1 points to section 5
15:57 kados yep
15:57 thd kados: should I post a new message asking people to read at least section 5 before the meeting?
15:57 kados yea, I'd recommend it
15:58 thd ok
15:58 kados and there's also no mention of the purpose of the document
15:58 kados might be good to state that explicitly
15:58 kados people probably don't remember the agenda for the meeting
15:58 kados actually ...
15:58 kados copyright isn't on the agenda
15:58 kados :-)
15:58 kados[…]tingnotes07july02
15:59 kados thd: should I add it?
15:59 thd kados: I thought that it was tabled from the last meeting to this one so why not?
16:00 kados i must have forgotten to add it
16:00 kados thd: think we can keep it to 15 minutes?
16:00 kados thd: I assume it's a topic we'll have to discuss more than once?
16:00 thd kados: yes of course
16:01 owen kados: I committed more corrections following your update to bug 1366.
16:04 kados owen: much better
16:26 owen Okay kados, try again
16:30 kados muuch better
16:30 kados oremember.tmpl: line 162: Probably missing whitespace before or missing quotation mark near: checked=" Warning: authorities.tmpl: line 30: Probably missing whitespace before or missing quotation mark near:<!-- TMPL_VAR name="duplicateuthid" -->&amp;popup=1", "Duplicate Authority"); return false;"
16:30 kados I think that's the last one
16:30 kados well, two
16:30 kados moremember.tmp and authorities.tmpl
16:40 kados thd: excellent summary!
16:40 thd thanks
16:46 owen Okay kados, try again (crafty devils)
16:48 kados owen: looks good, all errors fixed except for the non-ascii ones I'll have to troubleshoot later
16:48 kados owen: thanks!
16:48 kados owen++
17:07 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: dbs
17:45 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: rangi
17:51 kados hey chris
17:52 chris heya
17:56 [K] <dbs@FreeNode> chris - you can't sleep, or your son isn't sleeping?
17:56 chris well he woke up at 4, then went back to sleep, but i havent been able to
17:57 [K] <dbs@FreeNode> ugh
17:57 chris be an afternoon nap for me i think :)
18:52 russel hi everyon
18:52 chris hi russ
18:53 kados hey russel
18:53 kados about 10 minutes out, to the dev meeting I suppose
18:56 kados hi WPL
18:59 WPL hello
18:59 dewey what's up, WPL
18:59 kados hi WPL
18:59 kados WPL: welcome :-)
18:59 kados WPL: you here for the developers' meeting?
18:59 WPL no... just intrested in OSS ILS
18:59 WPL using III right now
19:00 kados ahh, cool
19:00 paul lll ?
19:00 kados hi kolibrie
19:00 kolibrie hi
19:00 kados paul: Innovative Interfaces Inc.
19:00 WPL Millennium
19:00 paul ok.
19:00 WPL $$
19:00 kados paul: they're one of the major US ILS companies
19:00 paul it's known as millenium in france
19:00 paul yes, I know it.
19:00 kados kolibrie: you here for the developers' meeting?
19:00 paul koha is much better :-D
19:00 kados paul: it's pronounced 'tripple I' here in the US sometimes
19:00 kolibrie kados: just thought I'd listen in
19:01 WPL well.. a couple years ago we would have never considered another ILS but ears are starting to bend now
19:01 kados kolibrie: welcome, where are you coming from?
19:01 kolibrie kados: Fairfax, VA
19:01 kados cool
19:01 kados WPL: how about you?
19:01 WPL Westerville Ohio, USA
19:01 kados oh, hi there :-)
19:02 kados kados == Joshua Ferraro
19:02 [K] *** part FreeNode!#koha: rangi
19:02 WPL oh hey Josh.. got your phone call.
19:02 WPL We where planning on calling you when things settle down a bit
19:02 kados cool
19:02 kados were you at ALA?
19:02 WPL ahh.. someone from the library may have been but I don't go to those things...
19:02 kados hehe
19:03 WPL I'm the IT guy... to many library people there
19:03 kados *nod*
19:03 WPL jk
19:03 kados for me too :-)
19:03 kados just don't tell the librarians :-)
19:03 kados no, it's atually fun to chat with librarians
19:03 WPL well ALA is more for them...
19:03 kados yea
19:04 kados ok, well it's about that time
19:04 kados so I guess first order of business is roll call
19:04 kados who's here?
19:04 dewey here is an example record that is generating 3 items:
19:04 kados paul: noted, I'll do my best :-)
19:05 WPL I just really wish these OSS ILS programs would take off. I"m so sick of these companies fleecing us for bad products and horrid support
19:05 paul for US guys : i'm from France and it's 9Pm here. and for newbies : i've one baby that is 4 months old and sometime has small nights...
19:05 kados heh
19:05 kados kolibrie: wow, stick around :-)
19:05 kados kolibrie: we'll put you to work :-)
19:06 kados ok, and I know chris and russ are around
19:06 kados that's a quorum
19:06 kolibrie kados: I'm trying to just listen, remember?
19:06 WPL I should see if I can get my buddy Aaron involved. He used to work with my at the library and hates III and how much these guys charge. He's a big Ruby programmer and loves OSS
19:06 paul hdl won't come with us : he's afk, teaching Koha todays and tomorrow
19:06 kados we'll skip introductions, other than to say welcome to WPL (is it Bart?) and kolibrie
19:06 kados kolibrie: hehe, noted
19:07 kados cool
19:07 kados WPL: that'd be great
19:07 kados ok, here's our agenda:
19:07 kados[…]tingnotes07july02
19:07 WPL are you having a dev conf right now
19:07 kados anyone have oper privs can +o me?
19:07 kados WPL: yea
19:07 WPL I'll msg him ans see if he's free
19:07 kados so first order of business is Open Positions in the Community - 15 minutes
19:08 kados we've been without an active Kaitiaki for a while
19:08 kados same goes with Documentation Manager
19:08 kados we lost our QA Manager
19:08 kados and two new positions are clearly necessary at this stage: Translations Manager and FAQ Manager
19:08 kados welcome pecisk
19:08 paul and our 2.2 Release Maintainer is asking himself if he should not resign from this position...
19:08 kados agenda:[…]tingnotes07july02 (we're on Open Positions in the Community)
19:08 kados paul: :-)
19:08 paul (I'm the 2.2 RM)
19:09 paul what 1st ?
19:09 kados I'll start with least :-)
19:09 kados FAQ Manager
19:09 kados basically, I'm bringing it up to raise awareness
19:10 kados if anyone knows of anyone interested in combing through our lists and adding FAQ to the website
19:10 kados we can set them up with creds to do that
19:10 kados welcome Irma
19:10 paul hi Irma (our french => english translator ?)
19:10 kados Irma: (we're working off of this agenda:[…]ingnotes07july02)
19:10 kados Irma: we're on point #2 Open Positions in the COmmunity)
19:10 Irma Bonjour  and good morning
19:11 kados so Translations Manager I've been serving as
19:11 kados but doing a bad job of it as I haven't had much time
19:11 kados but I can continue to do a bad job until someone says they want to take it on
19:11 kados :-)
19:11 russel do we have role descriptions?
19:11 kados I think the important ones, that we might actually have people for atm are Documentation Manager and QA Manager
19:11 kados russel: don't think so, no
19:11 paul don't you need an admin access to to add new translations ?
19:12 kados paul: yes, but I can grant it to anyone who wants the job
19:12 kados paul: but I feel strongly it should be one person
19:12 kados paul: because otherwise there could be conflicts and inconcistancies due to limitations in kartouche
19:12 paul ah, ok. I remember I had to send you some updates/improvements I did on kartouche...
19:12 thd I have a plan to update my Koha FAQ for a manageable system in Zope but have not had time to work on Koha specifically lately
19:12 paul do you have a tool to do kartouche => koha CVS moves ?
19:13 kados paul: not a complete one
19:13 kados paul: do you?
19:13 paul because I did it for french and it was manual
19:13 kados yea, I do it manually
19:13 paul nope, sorry...
19:13 kados but with so many languages now it's hard :-)
19:13 kados I don't mind continnuing, I like languages, but I will just be slow at it :-)
19:13 chris i guess stepping back we have to decide on what the process is for selecting people
19:13 kados chris: good point
19:14 kados hi tumer , welcome
19:14 paul I know, I already faced the problem with 1 language, so I understand what it can be for x0 ...
19:14 tumer hi all
19:14 paul hi tumer
19:14 tumer hi paul
19:14 thd kados: why does more languages increase the difficulty?
19:14 kados for selecting people, my feeling is that if someone is willing to devote the time it will take to fill the role, they should have their turn
19:14 paul thd : because you have to validate translations, export them manually, re-run the translation tool, then test the result
19:15 kados thd: what paul said :-)
19:15 paul which is a -believe me- long and boring process...
19:15 chris i think thats of for some of the roles (translation manager, faq manager etc)
19:15 kados (very boring) :-)
19:15 chris but i think for the kaitiaki might need a bit of process/formality ?
19:15 paul so QA and doc manager ?
19:16 chris im willing to take a crack at QA
19:16 paul take a crack at QA ???
19:16 chris if no one else wants to :_
19:16 russel have a go
19:16 russel kiwi slang :-)
19:16 ryan chris++
19:17 chris hehe
19:17 paul (was a joke, I fully agree, of course ;-) )
19:17 paul s/RM/QA/
19:17 chris yes i may go insane, but its a risk im willing to take :-)
19:19 russel sounds like QA is sorted then?
19:20 kados sounds good
19:20 jaron Is this the only FAQ right now and are you looking for more technical matters like installation to be answered there?
19:20 chris yes to both
19:20 kados jaron: interested in being our FAQ Manager?
19:20 russel i guess it would be the job of the FAQ manager to poll the community and see what is required
19:21 russel there is alot of good stuff in the mailing list archives that could go into FAQ
19:21 chris yay
19:21 paul russel: ++
19:21 jaron let me step back and think about it. I can't contribute code right now, but might be able to do FAQ work.
19:22 kados jaron: sounds good
19:22 kados jaron: maybe you can let us know next dev meeting?
19:22 jaron kados: will do.
19:23 paul do we have any tool that could help us feeding the FAQ ?
19:23 russel i think the move to plone for the website will help there
19:23 paul something quick & easy to use I mean
19:23 thd paul I have a scheme for one in Zope
19:23 russel must be an FAQ manager for plone
19:23 russel sorry there must be...
19:24 russel ahh there is as part of the help center product we have been playing with
19:24 russel
19:25 thd russel: I have python scripts for managing FAQs in Zope
19:28 russel ok so i am putting my hand up for doc manager (or at least assisting with documentation)
19:28 thd paul: all pages should be in every language which would be easier to manage with something like Plone which has built in internationalisation support
19:28 kados plone's translation framework is pretty nice
19:29 kados paul: you'd be able to translate easily every page on
19:29 chris ok so summary
19:29 chris qa -> chris, translation -> kados 9 (for now),  faq -> jaron maybe, docs -> russ
19:29 kados yep, sounds right to me
19:29 paul I'm speaking of plone internal strings here. For example, i've 3accueil as 1st item on the left, then members and all other links are in english ;-) )
19:29 chris ignore the 9 :)
19:30 kados hehe
19:30 kados kados == 9
19:30 kados :-)
19:30 paul sounds right too. except if we continue we will have a 90% liblime team...
19:30 kados paul: yea, they need translations
19:30 owen If we had 9 kadoses, we'd get a lot more done
19:30 chris for the big one kaitiaki
19:30 kados hehe
19:30 paul owen: ++++
19:30 kados 9_kadoses++
19:30 chris i think we need to find people who are interested
19:31 kados one thing I'd like to do is draw in more users
19:31 russel maybe cast the net a bit wider to the main list
19:31 kados yea
19:31 russel do up a role description for the website
19:31 Irma I will start with the release note translations for Koha 3.0 if you like.
19:31 russel and ask for nominations
19:31 chris ideally the kaitiaki would not be one of the developers
19:31 kados Irma: that'd be very helpful
19:31 Irma OK
19:32 chris and outside liblime would be good too, as paul points out we are in a lot of the positions already
19:32 kados chris: right
19:32 thd chris: yet none of the developers have time do they?
19:32 chris nope
19:32 russel and we can't twist pate's arm again ;-)
19:32 kados I'd love to have more people outside liblime get active, we just need to find some more people somewhere :-)
19:33 kados paul: maybe hdl/toins would like a bigger project role?
19:33 paul I already said that I'm a developper, and not native english speaker, so i'm not the person we're looking for...
19:33 paul maybe for hdl, but not the kaitiaki one i think
19:33 paul (for the same reason as me)
19:33 russel can we convince hdl to take over the 2.2 maintainers role?
19:34 russel (just a suggestion)
19:34 paul toins will leave for 8 months to : get married and finish it's school
19:34 kados Kaitiaki is a big role to fill, it'd be good if we could find a librarian who was invested in the project, and who had lots of time to stay involved
19:34 kados russel: as part of the descriptions, maybe we could talk about a time committment (both in terms of hours/week and a 'term' expectation, like maybe 1 year or something?)
19:34 paul russel: If I'm wondering wether i should not resign, it's because we plan to migrate all my customers to koha 3 in the next months.
19:35 russel ah righto - fair enough then
19:35 paul so, we won't have any interest in 2.2 and I think I will bo a poor job
19:35 thd kados: you need someone who is fully committed for that role and not merely has time
19:35 kados thd: good points
19:35 paul but if you want me to continue I can.
19:35 [K] <dbs@FreeNode> Have you put out a call for kaitiaki, explaining the role and the commitment?
19:35 kados dbs: no, don't think we have
19:35 paul [K]: ++
19:35 kados dbs: good idea
19:35 paul I don't think either
19:35 kados not for a while anyway
19:36 [K] <dbs@FreeNode> Not guaranteeing it will get you anyone, but it might help...
19:36 russel so the only public descripton for kaitiaki is -
19:36 kados I think that we do have one officially, but just not an active one :-)
19:36 kados same with documentation manager
19:36 russel i think rach wrote that a while back faq a while back
19:36 kados ahh, good one russel
19:37 kados ok, so we can move on
19:37 kados I think
19:37 kados chris, you wanna talk about git?
19:37 chris i think no :)
19:37 kados hehe
19:37 kados maybe just a status update
19:37 chris i think we need to finish our page
19:37 kados yea
19:38 chris given all the discussion we have had recently
19:38 thd page?
19:38 kados 'give us another two weeks to figure it out' :-)
19:38 chris we now have a clear idea of how it might work, so lets write it up, and get some more feedback
19:38 kados sounds good
19:38 kados ok, so 3.0 beta release
19:38 kados I'd really really really like to get this out in July
19:38 chris i think its a pretty sweet plan, and we can post the link to the devel list when its ready for comment
19:38 paul just a question about git : do we plan a "big bang" (ie : at date X, nobody uses CVS anymore) or a smooth move (a tool report CVS => git and git => cvs) ?
19:39 kados paul: good question
19:39 kados chris: have any thoughts?
19:39 chris i think a big bang
19:39 paul I think I prefer a big bang too
19:39 kados probably less overhead that way
19:40 paul yep. and once it's done, it's done.
19:40 chris yup
19:40 kados ok, so beta of 3.0?
19:40 paul just need to find time to learn git all at the same time. but with the wiki page that will be easy ;-)
19:40 paul ok for koha 3.0 beta
19:40 thd what would be done with Savannah at that point?
19:40 kados paul: do you have anything that is a show stopper for you currently?
19:40 tumer chris:are you keeping the folder structure same or like installed?
19:40 paul in koha 3.0 ?
19:40 kados I think slef worked on the installer a bit
19:40 kados paul: yes
19:41 paul yes : the installer !
19:41 kados installer is still weak I think
19:41 kados the web one isn't bad
19:41 kados it's the initial system install that's the weak spot I think
19:41 chris tumer: git allows us to move files around without losing history
19:41 paul the librarian part (web) is working, although it has to be filled a little bit more
19:41 kados paul: agreed
19:41 chris tumer: so we can tidy it up to be more like installed
19:41 paul but the tech part  don't exist at all !
19:41 chris if we want
19:41 tumer chris>:thanks
19:41 kados paul: right
19:41 kados my personal pet peeve is the interface design
19:42 paul pet peeve : another word I don't understand
19:42 kados I went to the book store over the weekend and got a bunch of interface design books
19:42 paul (even if I know what you're meaning I think !)
19:42 kados and I've been working with our graphics designer to put together some mockups
19:42 kados paul: it's a slang that means 'thing that bothers me'
19:43 paul exactly what I suspected ;-)
19:43 kados hehe
19:43 thd kados: are your concerns functional or more aesthetic?
19:43 kados thd: both
19:43 kados function and form
19:43 chris i think for the developers release .. we need the installer
19:43 paul opac and/or librarian interface ?
19:43 kados I can talk more about that at the next meeting when i have my thoughts better organized
19:44 kados paul: both :-)
19:44 paul one more than the other ?
19:44 kados paul: both :-)
19:44 thd kados: what functional concerns do you have for the intranet aside from preferences organisation?
19:44 chris then next round interface
19:44 kados thd: I'll have to defer my comments until my thoughts are better organized, maybe next dev meeting
19:44 kados chris: that makes sense
19:45 kados chris: so maybe we could do the beta without interfaces
19:45 chris i wouldnt call it beta
19:45 kados s/interfaces/interface redesign/
19:45 chris id call it developers release
19:45 kados ahh
19:45 chris the first beta could be with the interface redesign
19:45 paul what kind of redesign do you want kados ?
19:45 kados last time I proposed a three phase release cycle
19:45 chris if you call it beta
19:45 chris ppl will try and use it
19:45 kados alpha, beta, stable
19:45 kados chris: true
19:46 paul mostly css & menu, or more deeply changes ?
19:46 paul s/deeply/deep/
19:46 kados paul: I think mostly css and menu
19:46 kados paul: some layout changes
19:46 kados I want to put together a design guidebook for developers
19:46 kados to make it easy to develop according to our 'standard'
19:47 kados I'll speak more on this soon
19:47 thd kados: we have one of those do we not?
19:47 kados I think chris is right that the installer should take precidence
19:47 kados and slef's not here to defend himself
19:47 paul kados : what timeline would we have for this stuff ?
19:47 kados but I'm meeting with him later today, so I can ask what his timeline is
19:47 kados paul: i'd like to release something this month
19:48 paul just 1 information :
19:48 kados then, two months of testing and another release in sept
19:48 paul i'll be on holiday from jul, 8 to jul,28
19:48 kados wow
19:48 kados important information :-)
19:49 paul and hdl from jul 22 to aug 5
19:49 kados one thing is, if we switch to time-based releases (as I proposed last meeting)
19:49 kados we should try to avoid doing a stable release anywhere near christmas
19:49 kados because people don't have time then :-)
19:49 kados so I figure we do alpha release near christmas time, beta in the summer, and stable in fall, maybe
19:49 Irma I wonder if Pascale Nalon (re help with translations) will also take holidays in July
19:50 Irma will find out. No worries.
19:50 kados paul: so do you want to try to do a release before jul 8?
19:50 kados paul: s/you want/you want us to try /
19:51 paul in France : ppl don't have time in May because 1st, 8th, ascension, pentecote are closed days. july august is off too because of holidays, september is wrong because of school new year, christmas is wrong because it's christmas.
19:51 kados 6 days :-)
19:51 kados hehe
19:51 paul no I didn't expect that.
19:51 paul hdl will be here 3 more weeks.
19:51 paul and you don't need me to release something !
19:51 kados ok
19:52 kados so lets try to release something before hdl goes on vacation
19:52 paul (as I don't need your release to already have 2 -3 at the end of the week- libraries running CVS-3.0 !
19:52 kados I'll see if we can get slef to commit to writing the installer
19:52 paul )
19:52 kados paul: *nod*
19:52 kados any other things we absolutely need before we do a developers/beta release?
19:52 paul I think it can really be easy, as it just have to rely on the tech part.
19:52 paul much more easy than the previous installer !
19:53 kados definitely!
19:53 kados I think there was talk about improvements to the marc editor by toins?
19:53 kados paul: is that being worked on?
19:53 kados how will that work affect the release
19:54 kados IIRC, currently the MARC editor isnt' working in HEAD
19:54 ryan paul: did you suggest that things are recently broken in HEAD ?
19:54 paul we should commit the stuff in the next 2 days.
19:54 ryan or did i misread you?
19:54 paul works pretty well alreday
19:54 paul just investigating that it works with hide_marc=ON, adv_editor=ON and other specific systemprefs
19:54 kados cool
19:55 paul kados : IPT is using the CVS version atm, and did not report any problem
19:55 paul (mmm... I mean all the problems she reported have been solved now ;-) )
19:55 thd paul: IPT?
19:55 dewey IPT is probably using the CVS version atm, and did not report any problem
19:55 kados I may be missinformed, I heard it from someone else
19:55 paul Institut Protestant de Théologie
19:55 paul (1st library using koha 3.0 in France. Heavy cataloguing...)
19:56 thd paul: so you are fixing the speed problems?
19:56 tnb paul: is SAN-OP live on the internet now?
19:56 paul mmm... partially : the new html is much small, so it should be faster.
19:56 tnb do they have a url?
19:57 kados paul: good news
19:57 dewey good news is, like, that search?q=callnum works now.  :)
19:57 kados hehe
19:57 paul tnd : nope. should be in september (they have some funding problems)
19:57 tnb ok, just trying to keep up-to-date :)
19:58 kados ok, the last thing we probably ahve time for
19:58 kados minus paul
19:58 kados is the copyright stuff
19:58 kados[…]-07/msg00001.html
19:59 kados thanks to thd for taking time to put that together
19:59 kados section 5 is the summary section
19:59 kados I'm not sure we need to make any decisions today, just mainly awareness raising
19:59 kados and it'd be good to get a thread going about this again
19:59 kados with the new information
19:59 thd paul: did you see what I wrote to Frédéric about keyboard navigation in the record editor?
19:59 kados if no-one starts one in the next couple days I'll do it
20:00 kados I think everything else on the agenda will have to wait until next meeting
20:00 kados speaking of which
20:00 kados everyone have two weeks from now available, same time, same place (not Paul I think)
20:00 paul thd : nope. on koha-devel ?
20:00 paul about GPL v3 : does someone think we should investigate moving to GPL 3 ?
20:01 kados I'd like to see how it sticks first
20:01 thd paul: no I sent it too him privately in response to his question to me about what was the best web based MARC record editor
20:01 paul thd : I was cc: ?
20:02 thd paul: No, I will forward that section to you
20:02 paul thd : ok
20:02 kados anyone have anything further to discuss?
20:02 thd yes
20:03 kados thd: drat, we almost made our goal of 1 hour :-)
20:03 thd kados: we should look into the Koha dependencies to see if there is anything which is GPL 2 only
20:03 kados thd: saw that note in your email
20:04 kados thd: you wanna take that task on?
20:04 tumer 2 good news
20:05 kados thd: that should be documented in the new installer when it's written
20:05 tumer 1 Millenium rep is upset about kados's performace at ALA
20:05 kados hehe
20:05 russel lol
20:05 kados tumer: my performance?
20:05 paul hehe...
20:05 tumer 2 koha vs Millenium is 1 nil at parliament
20:05 tumer its installed
20:05 paul we have 9 kados, so it's not a surprise ...
20:05 kados hehe
20:05 chris wooo hoo great news tumer
20:05 kados tumer: wow, that's great news
20:06 kados tumer: congrats
20:06 tumer sorry i thought it was you KOHA2s performane
20:06 kados tumer: well, I was at an exhibit there
20:06 kados tumer: mabe that's the performance :-)
20:06 paul maybe we should share more our success.
20:06 paul because when looking for new customers, success stories are important.
20:06 kados paul: yea, agreed
20:06 tumer they say we are giving them a real pain
20:07 kados I think the new should include better capability to write case studies
20:07 thd tumer: the LibLime booth was swamped every time I looked especially the second day
20:07 kados thd: yea, it was very busy
20:07 chris tumer: thats good to hear :)
20:07 tnb *TNB can testify to ALA business :)
20:07 owen kados, did anyone get pictures?
20:07 thd :)
20:07 kados and it's been almost a week
20:08 tnb owen: my camera was behaving badly
20:08 kados owen: i think Carl did, I'll have to ask him for a few
20:08 tnb but i think one of our booth partners did
20:08 kados tnb's camera died
20:08 tnb it's alive again , strangely :)
20:08 paul booth ???
20:08 kados paul: it's an exhibit space
20:08 kados paul: demos, chairs, etc.
20:08 paul ok
20:08 thd I have an announcement
20:09 kados thd: go for it :-)
20:10 tumer  a sales pitch:Millenium does not support multilingual search like Koha, thats how we got the parliament to install Koha if anyones interested
20:10 thd GPL 3 came a little too close for my comfort to coming out with a major bug in the last sentence in section 13
20:10 kados tumer: *nod*
20:10 tnb tumer: cool
20:10 paul multinlingual search not supported ? what does it mean ?
20:11 tumer like you may omit the accents and still find a record and also the fuzzy search
20:11 tnb tumer: i think the 'performance' you refer to might be kados' presentation as keynote speaker at the III user group in US :)
20:11 thd there have been some anomalies introduced in later drafts of GPL/AGPL 3
20:11 kados oh yea, that might be it
20:11 kados thd: is GPLv3 final?
20:12 paul kados : yep
20:12 paul since 2 days unless i'm mistaken
20:13 kados
20:13 kados you can find my presentation there now, they uploaded it :-)
20:13 thd kados: yes it was fixed because the bug was seen by people at the Software Freedom Law Center but it had made it into a draft which should not have happened
20:13 kados thd: cool
20:13 paul 11MB ! wow, huge...
20:13 kados hehe, sorry :-)
20:13 kados it's image-heavy
20:14 thd I called people the day before release for clarification
20:14 kados thd: so you're happy with GPL v3 now? :-)
20:14 kados I think I have to call TIME :-)
20:14 kados we're about 10 minutes over
20:14 kados thanks for attending everyone
20:15 paul have a good day guys.
20:15 kados night paul
20:15 chris cya paul
20:15 thd so my announcement is to encourage people to pay attention to the AGPL V3 comment process at with maybe a month or two left before that is released
20:15 kados heh
20:15 tumer night all
20:15 tnb night tumer :)
20:15 kados thd: cool, thanks for bringing that up
20:15 kados night tumer
20:15 thd goodnight tumer
20:15 paul lol : "freedom to innovate" : kados, do you confirm you were speaking to "Innovative Inteface" users ...
20:16 kados paul: hehe, yes :-)
20:16 paul kados has a lot of humous...
20:16 paul kados has a lot of humour...
20:16 kados hehe
20:16 kolibrie it sounds like I should wait a couple of weeks till the switch to git is made, then get involved
20:16 kados the III users do not have humour :-)
20:16 kados kolibrie: you a git native?
20:17 kolibrie kados: mostly use darcs, but some git, avoid CVS
20:17 kados cool
20:17 kados kolibrie: your experience will be valuable, maybe we could get you to comment on our proposed workflow when it's ready to show
20:17 thd kados: no one is perfectly happy with GPL 3 because of compromises made to avoid forking the code but I am extremely pleased with it
20:17 kolibrie kados: sure
20:17 kados ok, well now I've got to run
20:17 kados I'll be afk for a hour or so
20:19 kolibrie thanks for letting me listen in
20:19 Irma thanks for the good meeting
20:48 kados liblimers around?
20:49 kados ryan:
20:49 kados chris:
20:49 kados Bo's having trouble logging into that test instance we set up of 3.0
20:49 ryan using firefox ?
20:49 BrookeatHinsdal Yep
20:50 ryan lemme check
20:50 BrookeatHinsdal I noticed it didn't work at all under Safari and IE
20:50 BrookeatHinsdal Both on a Mac and a PC
20:51 ryan user: koha2
20:52 BrookeatHinsdal and the pass?
20:52 ryan liblime ?
20:52 ryan BrookeatHinsdal: were you using koha2 before ?
20:52 BrookeatHinsdal nope
20:52 BrookeatHinsdal and that's not working for me either
20:53 ryan i think someone changed the login
20:53 BrookeatHinsdal i'm still getting You entered an incorrect username or password. Please try again.
20:53 ryan i'll give you a new one
20:56 chris heya brooke
20:57 kados experimenting with a slightly more friendly style :-)
21:00 BrookeatHinsdal 3
21:00 kados 3?
21:00 dewey 3 are in the same building, 3 are in other locations
21:00 BrookeatHinsdal hey Im in :)
21:02 ryan 3 is the magic number
21:02 BrookeatHinsdal yup
21:02 BrookeatHinsdal as in this is the third time I'm trying to get the tub in, so it ought work >:)
21:03 ryan russel++ for updating the css on that install
21:04 ryan was barely navigable a couple days ago
21:04 chris oh yeah i fixed some files there too, so you  might have to do a git clean before ur next pull ryan
21:04 ryan cool, thx ... hadn't updated in some time
21:12 kados so did we actually decide that russ and chris would fill the roles of documentation and qa managers?
21:12 russel ryan - paul suggested intranet2.css instead of san-op
21:12 chris no one else wanted too
21:12 russel so i made that change as well
21:12 kados or are we pending a role description and nomitations on list
21:12 chris i think for those roles its ok, unless someone complains
21:12 chris the big ones
21:12 kados yea
21:12 kados that was my thought too
21:12 chris like RM and kaitiaki
21:13 kados just wanted to make sure
21:13 chris we have to get more consensus on
21:13 kados *nod*
21:13 russel the other roles - i think people are just happy someone does it :-)
21:13 kados yea
21:15 chris that could get old :)
21:16 kados hehe
21:18 martinmorris evening - got a couple more thicky newbie questions
21:18 martinmorris i've done a MARC check and got an issue with the itemnum field
21:18 martinmorris says:
21:18 martinmorris    * The field itemnum MUST be mapped
21:18 martinmorris    * The correspounding subfield MUST be in with -1 (ignore) tab
21:18 martinmorris but i can't find the itemnum field anywhere
21:19 chris if you go to systemadministration
21:20 chris there is a link called MARC2Koha links (i think thats what its called)
21:20 chris if you click on that
21:20 chris then in the dropdown, choose items
21:20 martinmorris Links KOHA - MARC DB
21:20 chris its actually itemnumber not itemnum ... bad error message that
21:21 martinmorris ah, OK
21:21 martinmorris well that's currently mapped to 952u
21:21 chris right
21:21 martinmorris so why might it be complaining?
21:21 chris so you want to then go and make sure 952u is set to ignore
21:21 martinmorris my installation is doing a couple of odd things
21:21 BrookeatHinsdal did you make that visible>?
21:21 chris (you dont want humans touching that field)
21:21 BrookeatHinsdal cause it should be -0 ignore
21:21 martinmorris possibly - i'll check
21:21 martinmorris -0?
21:21 martinmorris ok
21:22 chris it should just say ignore in the dropdown if you set it to that, it should stop complaining
21:23 martinmorris is there anywhere i can formaly notify little problems like that i get to help out with future bug fixes and so on?
21:23 chris
21:23 chris you could put a bug there saying the error message when doing marc check is misleading
21:24 chris at the dev meeting today, we have nearly (if he says yes) appointed a person to look after the FAQ
21:24 martinmorris i'll make sure i add that, thank you
21:24 chris so when that starts hopefully it will cover gotchas like this
21:24 martinmorris it did confuse me a bit
21:24 chris yeah, its not the most helpful message
21:25 martinmorris i've got another little error
21:25 martinmorris i've started adding personal name authorities
21:25 chris ahh authorities
21:25 chris i know very little about them
21:26 chris ryan might be able to help if he is a bout
21:26 martinmorris used a few to edit some biblios, but when i search for an authority i know i've used it tells me i've not used it in any biblios, which worries me
21:28 chris hmm yeah that doesnt sound right
21:28 chris id check its not already reported at and report it if not
21:28 martinmorris fair enough
21:28 martinmorris one or two more quick questions...
21:28 chris fire awa
21:28 chris y
21:29 martinmorris the MARC checks are also telling me under the 'item fields' row that:
21:29 martinmorris ALL items fields MUST :
21:29 martinmorris    * be mapped to the same tag,
21:29 martinmorris    * and they must all be in the 10 (items) tab
21:30 chris yeah all except itemnumber :-)
21:31 martinmorris so what other items fields is it talking about?  everything under items inthe MARC Links page?
21:32 chris yeah everything you want linked
21:32 chris i think itemnumber is the only one that must be
21:32 chris but if you want to be able to search by branch etc
21:33 chris then you want holdingbranch and homebranch linked
21:33 martinmorris yes it's moaning about those too
21:33 chris and you'll probably want itemcallnumber too
21:33 martinmorris i'm confused though sorry, you don't mean EVERYTHING under 'items'
21:33 martinmorris ?
21:33 chris the ones you want linked
21:33 chris must all be linked to the same tag
21:34 martinmorris is there anything else i might want linked?  everything else there seems veyr different
21:34 chris ie you cant link home branch to something in 952 and holding branch to something in 960
21:34 chris brooke might know
21:34 martinmorris ah i'm with you, sorry :)
21:34 martinmorris everything there is under 952 except holdingbranch which is under 850
21:35 chris ahhh
21:35 chris that will be the error then
21:35 martinmorris was having a blonde moment there :)
21:35 martinmorris so i stick holding branch on a 952 subfield then?
21:35 chris yup
21:35 chris and that should make that error go away
21:35 martinmorris that would be 952d, soon as i clicked on it it pretty much corrected itself :)
21:36 martinmorris so now it's just homebranch and  holdingbranch
21:36 martinmorris which in this case will always be the same for every item
21:36 chris cool
21:37 slef hi all
21:37 russel hiya slef
21:38 kados hey slef
21:38 kados heh
21:40 martinmorris it's 20 to 11 - that's quite some transport disruption :)
21:41 slef martinmorris: wasn't supposed to arrive here until 11 if on time
21:41 martinmorris hard day at the office then? :)
21:41 slef customer visit
21:42 martinmorris ok
21:42 slef dewey: forget here
21:42 dewey slef: I forgot here
21:43 chris :)
21:44 slef kados: I think you need to ask network opers to reinstate channel ops
21:44 slef kados: they may or may not like to do that.  "/stats o" may show you oper nicknames.
21:44 kados yea
21:45 kados maybe si?
21:45 slef if we do get them, maybe give one of the bots chan op and give it some way to op other people
21:45 slef but this is an aside, really
21:45 kados yup
21:46 kados I really only care during meetings so I can set the topic
21:46 kados :-)
21:46 slef could also make a bot capable of changing topic, perhaps
21:48 slef take a crack isn't kiwi-specific
21:48 chris hehe
21:49 slef If you are adding plone, can you enable the ftp interface?
21:49 kados yep, it should be enabled
21:49 kados and we can give certain roles access
21:49 kados (probably not general access though)
21:49 slef then I can mount it as a curlftpfs and use good tools
21:49 kados yep
21:50 slef kados is only 9?
21:50 kados hehe
21:50 kados I'm very tall for my age :-0
21:51 slef I'm interested in translation systems, especially if/when mm starts coordinating a translation
21:51 slef pate is a ruby riter now, did you see?
21:52 chris he always was a ruby enthusiast
21:52 martinmorris still having trouble with the marc checks on the homebranch and holdingbranch tests
21:52 martinmorris they're mapped to 952b and 952d
21:52 martinmorris both have authorised value=branches
21:53 martinmorris and it's still complaining :)
21:53 chris and both in tab 10?
21:53 martinmorris the error message doesn't mention tab 10 at all
21:53 martinmorris i need to do that do I?
21:53 chris umm i think i saw something about that
21:53 martinmorris i'll give it a go
21:53 kados we need to improve the error message sound slike
21:54 chris * and they must all be in the 10 (items) tab
21:54 martinmorris lemme see what happens
21:56 martinmorris why would koha care what tab they're in?
21:57 chris ahh cos the items tab is handled a bit differently in the marc editor to the rest of them
21:58 slef installer...
21:58 dewey somebody said installer was still weak I think
21:58 slef dewey: hell yeah!
21:58 dewey slef: i'm not following you...
21:58 slef dewey: say thank you for the botsnack
21:58 dewey :)
21:59 slef I'm going for two parts... firstly, a Makefile.PL to check the dependencies and help out with packaging generally
21:59 slef secondly, a very simple script to do just enough to get the web installer running
22:00 kados that sounds great slef
22:00 slef I'm going to ask the lists for "simplest way to install a virtual host on your OS/distribution" unless anyone knows of such a list already?  I know debian with a2ensite, but not much else
22:00 kados <- doesn't know
22:00 slef That's going to be the biggest variable, I suspect
22:01 chris yeah
22:01 slef Is there an init script for zebrasrv?
22:01 chris mostly
22:01 slef That's the other thing I think we're missing
22:01 martinmorris this might all explain why i've been having weird stuff going on with items (like not being able to add them and getting a new one everytime i change the biblio)
22:01 kados slef: might be worth seeing how plone does it
22:01 chris i wrote one
22:01 chris but it relies on daemon
22:02 kados slef: it's fully cross platform afaikt
22:02 kados martinmorris: yea, that'd do it
22:02 slef kados: I want to do the package-ready thing first.  I think then we can use other tools to import the setup
22:02 kados martinmorris: you wanna propose some changes to the error messages?
22:02 martinmorris i moved the 952 stuff to tab 0 to speed up editing
22:02 kados martinmorris: I'll add them so the next poor bloke has an easier time of it :-)
22:03 martinmorris i'll note these down and propose them, yes :)
22:03 kados martinmorris++
22:03 slef kados: but getting packages for debian, fedora, and so on is my main priority, and I think that will work best if we mimic CPAN and post-install scripts.
22:03 kados packages would be sweet
22:04 kados apt-get install koha
22:04 kados :-)
22:04 kados what would be equally cool is if we could distribute updates that way
22:04 slef kados: so timeline... after yesterday's testing, I've lots more data.  A basic packager should be there this week, with the install script next week.
22:05 kados wow, that's great slef!
22:05 slef The changes to 3.0's layout are a big help... only real wart is to make the default configs follow FHS
22:05 kados FHS++
22:06 slef kados: I _will_ be telling you if there's a shark fin lurking that derails that schedule ;-)
22:06 kados hehe
22:06 slef I didn't spot anything as awkward as when I was trying to build this last time, though.
22:07 kados yea, i think the code cleanup was done well
22:07 slef Main thing that tripped me up was the line "4. Start zebra" or whatever it was in the install notes.
22:07 kados ahh
22:07 kados right
22:07 kados zebrasrv -f /path/to/koha.xml
22:07 slef Unfortunately, the zebra packages have no README, as far as I could tell.  Had to hit the web
22:07 kados was that not in there?
22:07 kados we need to hand out a daemon too
22:07 slef No... there was some suggestion of something similar in the wiki, IIRC
22:08 kados so you just go /koha/etc/init.d/zebradaemon start
22:08 chris yeah i wrote that
22:08 chris but it relies on the daemon tool
22:08 kados there are a couple zebra daemons floating around
22:08 kados check the list too
22:08 slef or "ln -s path/to/koha-zebra /etc/init.d && update-rc.d add koha-zebra defaults" or whatever it is
22:08 chris works a treat on debian .. not sure about anything else
22:09 slef chris: Must be a Linux Standard Base way to do this
22:09 chris you;d think so
22:09 slef chris: (which may annoy the Solaris and *BSD, but hey...)
22:10 slef chris: you've looked and not found?
22:10 chris nope
22:11 slef About git, the big switch-over will be when the release manager switches
22:11 chris good point
22:12 slef at the moment, developers can switch over when they want, as long as they're willing to email patches back for CVS
22:13 chris yeah
22:13 slef brb, ice cream
22:16 slef back
22:16 slef Has anyone tested git-cvspserver yet?
22:17 martinmorris yippee items works again :)
22:17 kados <- I haven't
22:18 slef "The hazard under United States copyright law is that any joint author
22:18 slef could relicense the work as a whole without consultation under any license
22:18 slef with only the obligation to provide royalties to the other authors."
22:21 slef I can also see an argument brewing about AGPL being the way to go.
22:21 slef (AGPL isn't "copyleft for network" - it's a new Obnoxious Ad Clause)
22:23 slef ok, so I disagree with much of thd's comments and I've no intention to ask ttllp to assign any copyrights, particularly not to a pig-in-a-poke like kohala, as things currently stand
22:24 kados hehe
22:24 kados yea, same with me
22:24 kados I'd need to trust that a non-profit was headed in some direction
22:24 kados that I agreed with and felt comfortable with
22:25 kados before I'd be willing to assign copyright over
22:25 slef It's good that he's written it, but I'm disappointed that it has no references, because claims like that "any joint author" one make my eyes bulge.
22:25 slef It could be true, but it contradicts what I've been told before.
22:26 kados I'm sure he'd be happy to add references
22:26 kados if you ask him on-list
22:26 kados or off for that matter
22:26 slef I will
22:31 slef ok, I've run out of meeting
22:33 slef well done for snapping it at an hour
22:39 kados thx, it's always hard
22:39 kados but people start drifting after about 45 minutes :-)
22:39 thd slef are you still there?
22:40 slef yep
22:41 slef it has more references ;-)
22:42 thd slef perhaps I should have provided some case law examples about my assertion about how joint works work authorship rights are treated under US copyright law.
22:45 thd slef: Erickson v. Trinity Theatre Inc. 13 F.3d 1061
22:46 slef thd: is there a US equivalent of ?  (judgements online)
22:47 thd slef: Pye v. Mitchell 574 F.2d 476
22:48 thd slef: unfortunately unless you have a very expensive subscription to NEXIS only very recent US decisions are available online
22:49 thd s/NEXIS/LEXIS/
22:50 slef thd: land of the free, except when someone can make money
22:51 thd slef: the issue of public access to court records is a big problem in the US
22:51 slef thd: US is a common law system, isn't it?
22:52 thd slef: the official court reporting is often a commercial publisher which insists that its pagination of court decisions is copyrightable
22:53 slef bizarre to be prevented from reading your own law by a trick like that
22:53 thd slef: the US is a civil law system which accepts common law principles
22:53 thd slef: the US really tries very hard to encode everything into laws and rules unlike other more flexible systems
22:55 thd slef: I seem to have no citation for the joint work issue more recent than 1992, although, I suspect they could be found with some little effort researching in a law library
22:56 thd slef: the issue is very familiar to lawyers in the US but is one of the things which I identified as seeming counter-intuitive
22:58 thd slef: I agree that no assignment should be made to an organisation we could not all trust.  I merely hoped to provoke renewed discussion of a Koha foundation
22:59 thd slef: I have no particular knowledge of Kohala, although, I would suspect that it does not have sufficiently good governance procedures
23:00 slef I know nothing of it besides its existance, presumably as an ASBL
23:00 thd slef: ASBL?
23:00 slef Association Sans But Lucratif
23:00 slef French not-for-profit
23:01 thd slef: is there a distinction between not-for profit and non-profit in France?
23:02 slef Don't know.  Is there in US?
23:03 thd slef: yes in the US those are two distinct but similar organisation types
23:04 thd slef: some charities which run shops in the US are not for profit organisations but are duly regarded with suspicion on that account
23:04 thd s/shops/thrift shops/
23:04 slef I thought the US had no concept of charities beyond IR 501c(3) coding?
23:05 thd slef: both types of organisations may qualify and I do not know what the real distinction is
23:06 thd slef: not for profit organisations are not the norm
23:09 thd slef: my statement about joint works was not that that was the way the authors behaved or ought to but the actual legal form of a software project is not easy to determine
23:11 thd slef: especially when most do not know that issue under US law
23:13 thd slef: Furthermore, it can be difficult to know just what type of an organisation a software project really has and no one wants a dispute about their own project so the issue is ignored unless there is a trusted entity to which assignments may be made
23:14 thd slef: so how is the AGPL V3 draft any worse than GPL 3 in the ad-ware terms which you had criticised it?
23:15 slef The GPL 3 ones are avoidable, except the AGPL 3 upgrade clause.
23:16 thd slef: there is no upgrade clause any longer
23:17 slef thd: I blame stet for me being confused on that, then.
23:17 thd slef: the upgrade clause was dropped in GPL V3 discussion draft 3
23:17 thd slef: stet?
23:18 slef thd: the web 2.Null system FSF used that locked many users out of the consultations
23:18 thd oh yes, I had forgotten the name
23:19 slef So "Use with the GNU Affero General Public License" is not in the final GPLv3?
23:19 thd slef: I never used that to actually read the license drafts
23:20 thd slef: there is that in section 13 but it works differently than it would have as part of section 7
23:22 thd slef: if you would link or combine GPL 3 code with AGPL 3 code then the network obligations to provide access to Corresponding Source for the work as a whole apply
23:23 thd slef: that does not change the license for the GPL 3 linked parts as separate programs
23:25 slef gives much stuff to cut out to avoid the licence being applied to the output
23:27 thd slef: a network use clause is the only thing which can prevent Koha at some future time from being mixed with Sirsi proprietary code and being marketed as Symphony Web ILS without Sirsi giving back the modifications
23:28 thd slef: what do you mean by 'the license being applied to the output'?
23:28 slef thd: I disagree.  A network use clause is usually circumventable and mainly a PITA for legitimate users.
23:29 slef thd: the output of a web program is what it sends to the browser, right?
23:30 thd slef: how would you circumvent the current language or the current language if the word 'remotely' was dropped or clarified.
23:30 thd slef: yes the output is sent to the browser
23:31 slef I've not reviewed the AGPLv3 recently (it's stuck in stet), but the AGPL 2 was circumventable by proxy use IIRC and maybe by grandfathering.
23:31 slef thd: would you accept as free software a printer driver where the licence says that the maker's free printer driver offer has to be printed in the corner of every page?
23:33 thd slef: I would if the feature did not interfere with printing
23:33 thd slef: the offer does not have to be printed in the corner of the web page
23:34 thd slef: only a link to the offer needs to appear somewhere it can reasonably be expected to be found by the user
23:34 thd slef: if the whole offer had to appear on every page then I would agree with you
23:36 thd slef: however, the offer should not need to be anything more than a menu item and it could even be part of the same menu item from which copyright notices, etc. are linked
23:36 slef thd: so it's mainly a difference in scale.  Free software licences
23:36 slef shouldn't limit what users can make with the tools like that.
23:37 thd slef: there is no restriction on private modification
23:37 slef thd: so if I am using it in private between me and my collaborators, this restriction doesn't apply?
23:38 thd slef: however, this is no different from being required to include a written offer for Corresponding Source if you distribute a program in only object code form
23:38 slef thd: it's very different.  That's parallel, this is integral.
23:39 slef this must be in-band, that can be out-of-band
23:40 [K] *** part FreeNode!#koha: dbs
23:40 slef K now reports joins and parts?
23:40 thd slef: this is nothing different from the possibly integral copyright and license notice requirements which were always part of the GPL from version 1
23:41 chris apparently so slef
23:42 slef thd: it's different in that they're basic metadata necessary for users to know where they stand and this is much more, sometimes better done another way.
23:43 thd slef: if an upstream user had provided a feature which included a menu link to the copyright notices and license in the object code you code change the function or the particular menu item but you could not remove the menu item completely form modification which you distributed since GPL 1
23:44 thd s/you code/you could/
23:44 thd slef: how would you do it another way?
23:45 thd s/upstream user/upstream author/
23:46 slef rely on distributed service and cooperation being better than the one-ASP model and friendly ex-customers sharing any worthwhile Koha-based code with us
23:48 thd slef: how would you prevent the GPL from becoming effectively the BSD license for network use with some method different from the AGPL V3 draft?
23:48 slef mainly through competitors' customers
23:48 thd slef: what does that mean?
23:49 slef If competitor installs it for a customer, they get the source still, right?
23:50 slef Evenutally, customer becomes ex-customer, still has the source, can still share it.
23:50 slef Also, I've no particular fear of the modBSD licence.
23:50 slef However, AGPL makes the GPL effectively the original BSD licence for network use, with its own obnoxious ad clause.
23:51 thd slef: only if conveyance (distribution) has occurred in which case there would be no problem
00:00 thd` oops disconnected lets see if I can post what is not in logbot
00:03 thd slef: that is a mistake about what the BSD advertising clause meant.  The current BSD license requires giving credit to UC in the program.  The original license tried to have an affect on any mention of the program in advertising anywhere or mention of its features in any publication.
00:05 thd slef: the only thing removed between the before and after versions of the BSD license was the advertising clause relating to advertisements in other publications not legal notices within the program.
00:07 thd slef: do you have no objection if Google takes all the code for which you have worked hard and mixes it with their own proprietary code to provide some service without contributing back their modifications or even giving you an acknowledgement?
00:13 thd slef: are you still there?
04:58 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: dbs
04:59 [K] *** part FreeNode!#koha: dbs
08:04 chris hi toins
08:04 toins hello chris
08:05 chris i hear congratulations are in order (wedding coming up?)
09:39 Fallor hello
11:03 kados morning all
11:03 kados hi Fallor
11:03 kados congrats toins
11:03 kados paul around?
11:04 kados paul_sleep: ping
11:14 kados hdl: ping?

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