| Time |
S |
Nick |
Message |
| 13:15 |
|
slef |
kados or paul alive? |
| 13:19 |
|
kados |
slef: yo |
| 13:23 |
|
slef |
1mo, phone |
| 13:23 |
|
slef |
sorry |
| 13:24 |
|
lloyd |
;) |
| 13:34 |
|
lloyd |
kados - check your mail :) |
| 13:35 |
|
lloyd |
its not very exciting |
| 13:35 |
|
kados |
looking |
| 13:36 |
|
slef |
still phoone |
| 13:38 |
|
kados |
lloyd: looks like we're behind schedule :-) |
| 13:38 |
|
slef |
kados: have you looked at bookseller EDI? onix etc |
| 13:39 |
|
kados |
slef: only casually |
| 13:39 |
|
kados |
but I'm meeting with Ebsco at ALA next week |
| 13:39 |
|
kados |
to discuss it |
| 13:39 |
|
kados |
hi thd |
| 13:39 |
|
lloyd |
kados - yeah very lol |
| 13:40 |
|
kados |
thd: https://mail.gna.org/public/op[…]-06/msg00024.html |
| 13:40 |
|
kados |
thd: you can see some of the fruits of our labor last night in that email response |
| 13:41 |
|
kados |
thd: feel free to join that list and add your comments to the mix :-) |
| 13:41 |
|
kados |
slef: why do you ask? |
| 13:42 |
|
slef |
kados: customer enquiry. Am I right in thinking it's a case of altering acquisitions to send/receive the EDI messages? |
| 13:42 |
|
kados |
yea |
| 13:42 |
|
kados |
it's a pretty simple process actually |
| 13:42 |
|
kados |
most implementations use FTP |
| 13:42 |
|
kados |
AFAIK |
| 13:42 |
|
kados |
the EDI messages are gonna be different for every vendor |
| 13:43 |
|
kados |
like all library standards |
| 13:43 |
|
slef |
only thing I think is really new there is to feed the MARC record from |
| 13:43 |
|
slef |
the supplier into the reservoir so it's ready for acquisitions |
| 13:43 |
|
slef |
kados: really? ONIX looked like something half-standard. I guess we can XSLT them into a koha-common-EDI-import form? <eg> |
| 13:43 |
|
kados |
well, not the reservoir |
| 13:43 |
|
kados |
you want to attach it to the bib record |
| 13:43 |
|
kados |
when you acquisition something in Koha, it creates a minimal bib |
| 13:44 |
|
kados |
ONIX is just one of the edi standards |
| 13:44 |
|
slef |
do we trust the supplier's bib that much, though? |
| 13:44 |
|
kados |
EDIFAX is another I think |
| 13:44 |
|
kados |
yea |
| 13:44 |
|
kados |
we sorta have to |
| 13:44 |
|
kados |
at least that's how it's supposed to work |
| 13:45 |
|
kados |
edi does more than just grab the marc though |
| 13:45 |
|
slef |
In God We Trust. All Others Bring Data. |
| 13:45 |
|
kados |
hehe |
| 13:45 |
|
kados |
what I want to be able to do |
| 13:45 |
|
slef |
tracks the order, balances the budgets |
| 13:45 |
|
slef |
what else |
| 13:45 |
|
kados |
is initiate the order from koha, use a web service on the vendor's site to find books, add them to a basket, and place an order, then get back expected delivery times, etc. |
| 13:46 |
|
kados |
update the budget |
| 13:46 |
|
kados |
then track the order |
| 13:46 |
|
kados |
allow claims automatically |
| 13:46 |
|
kados |
(more than just a report) |
| 13:46 |
|
thd |
the problem with EDI in Perl is that the supporting libraries are underdeveloped even if they work for the level present |
| 13:46 |
|
kados |
we need a visionary library to take on the expense of developing that |
| 13:46 |
|
kados |
thd: right, we would need to expand on those |
| 13:48 |
|
slef |
I'm expecting to write some EDI interface modules. |
| 13:48 |
|
thd |
kados: I would advise hiring the developer of them to finish that work when it becomes a valuable feature to have |
| 13:48 |
|
kados |
thd: which modules? |
| 13:48 |
|
slef |
I think I've got a bookseller who is willing to help me test. |
| 13:48 |
|
kados |
thd: that depends on the developer |
| 13:48 |
|
kados |
thd: and how well written the code is |
| 13:48 |
|
kados |
thd: if it's poor code, I'd rather start from scratch |
| 13:49 |
|
thd |
kados: the problem is that you cannot get all the information for all the standards easily |
| 13:49 |
|
kados |
thd: *nod* |
| 13:50 |
|
thd |
the developer already had dealt with some of those issues for the old UK standard which is probably still used extensively and proprietary |
| 13:54 |
|
slef |
which developer? |
| 14:03 |
|
kados |
http://www.xml-edifact.org/TR/XML-Edifact-3.html |
| 14:03 |
|
kados |
thd: this one? |
| 14:04 |
|
kados |
XML::Edifact - an approach towards XML/EDI as a prototype in perl |
| 14:04 |
|
kados |
UN/EDIFACT is sometimes called nightmare of paperless office. About 3000 pages define the UN/EDIFACT standard to provide a rich semantic for electronic data interchange for trade commerce and transport. A semantic that is difficult to understand and to implement for the average programmer. |
| 14:04 |
|
kados |
typical library standard :-) |
| 14:08 |
|
thd |
I was looking but I did not find my old notes easily for this |
| 14:09 |
|
slef |
But we're no average programmers, right? :) |
| 14:10 |
|
thd |
there was one Perl module which included support for X12, X11, TRADOS, and EDIFACT all in one |
| 14:10 |
|
kados |
slef: heh |
| 14:11 |
|
thd |
TRADOS being the proprietary standard used in the UK |
| 14:13 |
|
thd |
use of EDIFACT is largely confined to major business outside the US and Canada |
| 14:13 |
|
slef |
UK Book Industry Communication seems to be pushing ONIX today |
| 14:14 |
|
thd |
ONIX is designed more for bibliographic metadata than orders |
| 14:14 |
|
slef |
I can find the EDIFACT details, but it doesn't seem promoted |
| 14:14 |
|
slef |
ONIX seemed to cover QUOTES and INVOICES and so on when I read it |
| 14:15 |
|
thd |
ONIX was developed by the Book Industry Study Group in the US for bibliographic data |
| 14:15 |
|
slef |
http://www.bic.org.uk/ecommerc[…]ementation.html#2 |
| 14:17 |
|
slef |
oh yeah, it hooks to EDIFACT for the INVOICES stuff |
| 14:17 |
|
slef |
sorry |
| 14:17 |
|
slef |
I'm in a maze of twisty standards, all different. |
| 14:18 |
|
kados |
slef: yea, welcome to libraries |
| 14:18 |
|
thd |
slef: TRADOS may be from my poor memory perhaps the proprietary standard is Tradicoms |
| 14:18 |
|
thd |
which is in the page that you posted |
| 14:19 |
|
slef |
TRADOS looked like someting for translations |
| 14:19 |
|
thd |
I have not looked at this in detail for about a year and a half |
| 14:20 |
|
slef |
It doesn't look like it has changed since 2002 at latest |
| 14:21 |
|
thd |
the PERL modules which I had were sufficient for doing something but they worked a much lower message level than most people expected |
| 14:23 |
|
thd |
there was no high level abstraction for the common tasks people wanted to perform because that level of the work on the modules was unfinished |
| 14:31 |
|
slef |
I don't mind a bit of heavy lifting. |
| 14:34 |
|
thd |
I found it |
| 14:34 |
|
thd |
http://www.s-mart.net/medici/ |
| 14:35 |
|
thd |
that is the most complete set of modules for EDI in Perl |
| 14:36 |
|
thd |
I could not remember MEDICI in association with EDI |
| 14:37 |
|
slef |
thanks |
| 14:38 |
|
thd |
kados: are you still here? |
| 14:38 |
|
slef |
approach sounds sane (driving expat) |
| 14:39 |
|
kados |
thd: just in theory :-) |
| 14:40 |
|
thd |
kados: I found MEDICI for EDI in Perl, which I had forgotten; but I wanted to ask you about the list to which you pointed me |
| 14:40 |
|
thd |
kados: what is that list? |
| 14:41 |
|
kados |
thd: that's the opencataloger list |
| 14:41 |
|
kados |
thd: for the opencataloger project |
| 14:41 |
|
thd |
the classroom part? |
| 14:42 |
|
thd |
or is that list also being used for the Koha development as well |
| 14:42 |
|
thd |
? |
| 14:43 |
|
thd |
what is the structure of the classroom work if it is no longer competitive teams starting from nothing but some direction to the standards? |
| 14:44 |
|
thd |
kados: and also where do I subscribe? |
| 14:44 |
|
slef |
vrooooooooooooom |
| 14:45 |
|
slef |
https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/opencataloger-dev |
| 14:46 |
|
slef |
as an aside, please ask opencataloguer to "use but not rely on" javascript ;-) |
| 14:46 |
|
kados |
slef: ha! |
| 14:46 |
|
kados |
slef: that's not the purpose of opencataloger |
| 14:47 |
|
kados |
slef: the existing MARC record editor in KOha fulfills that goal |
| 14:47 |
|
kados |
we're creating something else with opencataloger |
| 14:47 |
|
slef |
fiddling with each college's browser to allow koha's admin interface to run scripts is getting very boring |
| 14:47 |
|
kados |
heh |
| 14:48 |
|
slef |
This project has not yet submitted a short description. You can submit it now. |
| 14:48 |
|
slef |
That's not informative! |
| 14:48 |
|
slef |
https://gna.org/projects/opencataloger |
| 14:48 |
|
slef |
so what is opencataloguer? |
| 14:48 |
|
slef |
http://home.gna.org/opencataloger/ |
| 14:49 |
|
slef |
and are you worried by the spelling error? ;-) |
| 14:49 |
|
thd |
kados: I thought the purpose of open cataloguer was cataloguing, not necessarily cataloguing in JavaScript |
| 14:49 |
|
kados |
slef: that's the american spelling |
| 14:49 |
|
slef |
No gg? |
| 14:49 |
|
lloyd |
bloody americans |
| 14:49 |
|
slef |
lloyd: knickers to them. |
| 14:50 |
|
kados |
a name change may be in order |
| 14:50 |
|
kados |
http://kados.org/stuff/opencat[…]dfield_editor.png |
| 14:50 |
|
lloyd |
opencatlog :) |
| 14:50 |
|
kados |
http://kados.org/stuff/opencat-help.png |
| 14:50 |
|
kados |
http://kados.org/stuff/opencat-results.png |
| 14:50 |
|
slef |
I really don't know how US spells it. I do well to remember that they don't use ue on the end ;-) |
| 14:50 |
|
kados |
some screenshots if you want to know what it is |
| 14:51 |
|
kados |
http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.p[…]catalogingproject |
| 14:51 |
|
kados |
historical info on the origins ofthe project and the goals |
| 14:51 |
|
slef |
heh, tabs... anyone want a http://www.useit.com/alertbox/991114.html |
| 14:52 |
|
thd |
kados: what is the structure of the classroom work if it is no longer competitive teams starting from nothing but some direction to the standards? |
| 14:52 |
|
owen |
slef, do you really exist in a world completely free of javascript? |
| 14:53 |
|
owen |
It's ridiculous to expect a modern web application to fully function completely free of javascript |
| 14:53 |
|
owen |
...unless the audience *specifically* requires no javascript for some technical reason. |
| 14:53 |
|
slef |
owen: no. I exist in a world where Javascript is used sparingly, |
| 14:53 |
|
slef |
because of its accessibility, energy and abuse problems. |
| 14:53 |
|
slef |
hang on, some tike is banging on the building vents again |
| 14:54 |
|
owen |
And you believe that a cataloging client would need to adhere to those standards, assuming that "abuse" is not relevant here? |
| 14:54 |
|
kados |
thd: now it's just one student working, the google summer of code guy |
| 14:54 |
|
kados |
and toins / paul did much of the interface work in XUL |
| 14:54 |
|
slef |
too slow :-/ |
| 14:55 |
|
thd |
owen: I hope to live in a world where either every device supports JavaScript perfectly or JavaScript is not required to accomplish any task |
| 14:55 |
|
slef |
owen: lots of college machines have javascript blockers by standard these days. |
| 14:56 |
|
owen |
So they don't use /any/ current web application |
| 14:56 |
|
slef |
It's completely stupid to prevent non-javascript clients from accessing basic services. Even google is slowly tracking back on that, opening maps up to non-javascript browsers and so on. |
| 14:56 |
|
thd |
owen: unfortunately the real world meets neither of those conditions so we either have to change the world or change the applications and changing the applications is easier |
| 14:57 |
|
kados |
slef: a cataloging application is not a basic service |
| 14:57 |
|
slef |
a cataloguing application has basic services |
| 14:57 |
|
kados |
slef: if I were rich, I would agree with you |
| 14:57 |
|
kados |
but I'm poor and I need to make something that works for my customer |
| 14:58 |
|
owen |
slef, have you evaluated commercially-available cataloging clients for accessibility? |
| 14:58 |
|
thd |
kados: it should be though as long as your libraries' records cannot be overwritten by the patrons |
| 14:58 |
|
kados |
slef: and they require javascript to perform what they want to perform |
| 14:58 |
|
slef |
part of the motive for web applications is "the Martini approach" - any time, any place, any where |
| 14:58 |
|
thd |
slef: what does Martini mean in that context? |
| 15:00 |
|
slef |
kados: I've found javascript to be a huge resource drain unless you lock down to only support one browser. I hear the ajax compatibility libraries are improving it, but use much CPU |
| 15:00 |
|
slef |
thd: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pag[…]5&in_page_id=1879 |
| 15:03 |
|
slef |
kados: use it if you want, but please leave a basic version usable without it (or at least have some idea how one could be made, leave the door open) if you want the widest possible audience. |
| 15:03 |
|
kados |
slef: we're locking down to firefox |
| 15:03 |
|
kados |
slef: there is no budget for this, it's being done on a shoestring |
| 15:03 |
|
kados |
slef: if you want to contribute code, that woudl be welcome |
| 15:06 |
|
slef |
Maybe some time, but it looks like a html version is prevented by the XUL tech requirement. |
| 15:14 |
|
slef |
owen: I've not evaluated the commercial cataloguers. One of my FE colleges did a while back and I think they had one Windows one which was OK. |
| 15:15 |
|
owen |
And it qualified as "accessible?" |
| 15:16 |
|
slef |
I think it got grade 3 on their 5-point scale. So not brilliant, but usable with adaptations that they already had. |
| 15:18 |
|
thd |
owen: I think that ensuring that every function can be performed quickly with the keyboard alone using the tab key or whatever is much more important than ensuring it works without JavaScript |
| 15:18 |
|
thd |
slef: I think that ensuring that every function can be performed quickly with the keyboard alone using the tab key or whatever is much more important than ensuring it works without JavaScript |
| 15:20 |
|
slef |
thd: the keyboard can move the pointer at a push, so I'd put them the other way around, but both is best. |
| 15:21 |
|
slef |
hrm, I can't remember how to do that in X though :) |
| 15:21 |
|
thd |
slef: I only use mouse keys as well |
| 15:22 |
|
thd |
slef: shift-numlock starts the mouse keys function |
| 15:22 |
|
thd |
in X-windows |
| 15:22 |
|
slef |
oh yeah, and tap shift while pointing to go faster |
| 15:23 |
|
slef |
I tried ctrl-alt-numlock, which was close but no cookie |
| 15:23 |
|
slef |
and 5 to left-click |
| 15:23 |
|
slef |
where are the other mouse buttons? |
| 15:24 |
|
thd |
sets the left button |
| 15:24 |
|
thd |
slef: / sets the left button |
| 15:24 |
|
thd |
slef: * sets the middle button or both |
| 15:24 |
|
slef |
and - the right, gotcha |
| 15:25 |
|
thd |
slef: - sets the right button |
| 15:25 |
|
slef |
I think that's changed since I last used it. |
| 15:25 |
|
thd |
slef: - 0 holds the button down |
| 15:26 |
|
slef |
and 5 to release again... mmm |
| 15:26 |
|
thd |
slef: - . releases the button |
| 15:26 |
|
slef |
heh |
| 15:26 |
|
thd |
slef: . releases the button |
| 15:26 |
|
thd |
slef: + gives a double click |
| 15:27 |
|
thd |
slef: all the numbers around 5 point in their relative direction of course |
| 15:28 |
|
[K] |
*** part FreeNode!#koha: _lloyd_ n=lloyd_p0 nat.wsufftrust.org.uk |
| 15:29 |
|
thd |
slef: the only problem I have with the built in X-windows function is that the feauture turns itself off after some minute and then I type a number unexpectedly |
| 15:29 |
|
slef |
9 |
| 15:30 |
|
thd |
slef: 9? |
| 15:30 |
|
slef |
I type a number unexpectedly |
| 15:30 |
|
thd |
s/minute/period of minutes/ |
| 15:32 |
|
thd |
there is are programs for better control of the feature but none are packaged for Debian unless you use Gnome or KDE |
| 15:32 |
|
thd |
s/is// |
| 17:52 |
|
kados |
hey foxnorth |
| 17:52 |
|
foxnorth |
hey kados: great email this morning. took me a while to digest. :) |
| 17:52 |
|
kados |
took a while to write :-) |
| 17:52 |
|
foxnorth |
i'm just about to send some use cases as i see them right now to the list |
| 17:52 |
|
foxnorth |
i bet! |
| 17:52 |
|
kados |
but it's important I think |
| 17:53 |
|
kados |
it's easy to get caught up in the thrill of fast development |
| 17:53 |
|
foxnorth |
very- dunno if you saw my reply from a short while ago yet? |
| 17:53 |
|
kados |
yea, I did |
| 17:53 |
|
foxnorth |
yeah, i think we need to pause and figure out what we want from this thing :) |
| 17:53 |
|
kados |
yea |
| 17:53 |
|
foxnorth |
ok, just sent my list of workflows/uses to opencat-dev |
| 17:55 |
|
kados |
oooh, yes |
| 17:55 |
|
kados |
thought of that last night: open file of MARC records |
| 17:55 |
|
foxnorth |
yeah, need that |
| 17:55 |
|
kados |
and saving too |
| 17:55 |
|
kados |
definite must |
| 17:57 |
|
kados |
cool |
| 17:57 |
|
kados |
we do own the opencataloger domain |
| 17:57 |
|
foxnorth |
so, i wanted to get down what's working, what isn't and what we want to work...ultimately |
| 17:57 |
|
kados |
but for now I'd prefer to use the liblime wiki: wiki.liblime.com |
| 17:57 |
|
foxnorth |
sure, whatever's easiest/best. |
| 17:57 |
|
kados |
we may end up changing names |
| 17:58 |
|
foxnorth |
right, hadn't thought of htat |
| 17:58 |
|
kados |
because of the spelling differences of catalog and catalogue |
| 17:58 |
|
foxnorth |
good point |
| 17:58 |
|
kados |
short sighted ofme |
| 17:58 |
|
foxnorth |
so, on the whole, how does this list jive with what you're envisioning (if that' s not too much to ask in chat??!) |
| 17:59 |
|
slef |
no, I just wondered whether it should be cataloger or catalogger - I don't know how it conjugates |
| 17:59 |
|
foxnorth |
i havne't included everything, of course... |
| 17:59 |
|
kados |
slef: :-) |
| 17:59 |
|
kados |
foxnorth: Save changes in opencataloger (xml dom...eventually sqlite?) |
| 17:59 |
|
slef |
oh wait, do you write referer? |
| 17:59 |
|
kados |
foxnorth: Google has a tool for this |
| 17:59 |
|
foxnorth |
a tool for which? |
| 18:00 |
|
kados |
foxnorth: Google Gears |
| 18:00 |
|
foxnorth |
ah, i've seen but haven't played with |
| 18:00 |
|
foxnorth |
yet |
| 18:00 |
|
kados |
there's also the Dojo Offline Toolkit |
| 18:00 |
|
kados |
which might be better than an extension |
| 18:00 |
|
slef |
oh yeah, strange US English |
| 18:01 |
|
foxnorth |
you mean better than making opencat an extension, or using google gears? |
| 18:01 |
|
kados |
I'd prefer to avoid making a firefox extension unless there are strong reasons too |
| 18:01 |
|
foxnorth |
yeah, it seems counterintuitive. i guess there's xulrunner, but i really don't know what the status of it is... |
| 18:01 |
|
kados |
but I'm in favor of using available toolkits like dojo, jquery, yui |
| 18:01 |
|
slef |
referer - A misspelling of "referrer" which somehow made it into the |
| 18:01 |
|
slef |
HTTP standard. (foldoc) |
| 18:02 |
|
kados |
xulrunner is really nice actually |
| 18:02 |
|
kados |
that's what EG's staff client is packaged in |
| 18:02 |
|
kados |
I think there's only an installer for windows though |
| 18:02 |
|
foxnorth |
yeah, i thought i saw that. it works pretty well for eg? |
| 18:02 |
|
kados |
yea, very well |
| 18:03 |
|
kados |
slef: yea, isn't that nuts |
| 18:03 |
|
kados |
slef: I've actually been thrown by that a few times |
| 18:04 |
|
foxnorth |
kados: you had said a while back you preferred sticking to xul as opposed to a js toolkit like ext/yui-- do you feel like the main benefits to xul are separation of ui and js scripts? Is it also stability you're concerned with in the other js toolkits? |
| 18:05 |
|
kados |
I think xul is really fantastic interface technology |
| 18:05 |
|
kados |
that's my main interest there |
| 18:05 |
|
foxnorth |
cos to be perfectly honest, (in my limited experience) i've been finding xul a bit cumbersome and rigid. but that may very well be my limited exp. w/ xul compared to ext/yui/jquery etc |
| 18:05 |
|
kados |
if you think you could do better in ext/yui/jquery ... |
| 18:05 |
|
foxnorth |
i'm not sure! |
| 18:05 |
|
kados |
I'm not gonna hold you back ;-) |
| 18:06 |
|
foxnorth |
but the xul has been interesting, and i also would hate to lose the work that's been put into opencat's xul interface |
| 18:07 |
|
foxnorth |
which comprises much of opencataloger at this point... |
| 18:07 |
|
kados |
slef would probbaly agree with you |
| 18:08 |
|
kados |
about re-designing it without XUL |
| 18:08 |
|
foxnorth |
anyway, as we think about bigger goals and new features, i'm just wondering how it will be to implement in xul. but again, i'm not extremely familiar w/ xul or any other toolkit in particular, so i'm not the best judge. |
| 18:08 |
|
kados |
I guess where is the future? |
| 18:08 |
|
foxnorth |
hhm. |
| 18:08 |
|
foxnorth |
right, where is the future??? |
| 18:08 |
|
foxnorth |
i love the idea of xul. |
| 18:08 |
|
kados |
are people building xul or ext/yui/jquery apps these days? |
| 18:08 |
|
foxnorth |
yeah, xulrunner seems to have a certain amount of popularity |
| 18:08 |
|
foxnorth |
although the ajax/js toolkits have their fans as well |
| 18:09 |
|
kados |
yup |
| 18:09 |
|
kados |
well I guess Firefox is a XUL application |
| 18:09 |
|
foxnorth |
good point :) |
| 18:10 |
|
foxnorth |
and thunderbird |
| 18:10 |
|
slef |
the future is oranges |
| 18:10 |
|
kados |
and is it developed in xulrunner now? |
| 18:10 |
|
foxnorth |
those are the main two i guess, plus songbird?? |
| 18:11 |
|
kados |
there's something sexy about a browser-based MARC editor that works really well |
| 18:11 |
|
foxnorth |
for sure |
| 18:11 |
|
slef |
kados: I wonder about your romantic abnormalities. |
| 18:11 |
|
kados |
I guess the pain of the current implementation in Koha caused me to swing the other way and look for something radical |
| 18:11 |
|
kados |
like XUL |
| 18:11 |
|
foxnorth |
i could definately see that |
| 18:12 |
|
kados |
but if we can acomplish the same goals using ajax toolkits I'd be happy |
| 18:12 |
|
foxnorth |
well i also don't know about the divisino of labor betw. front and backend in terms of the marc editing.... |
| 18:13 |
|
kados |
such as? |
| 18:13 |
|
kados |
not sure I understand |
| 18:13 |
|
foxnorth |
like, using perl on the backend to manipulate marc would be a lot easier than dom manipulations in js |
| 18:13 |
|
foxnorth |
then return the record to display |
| 18:13 |
|
foxnorth |
but that's getting close to what koha is now, no? |
| 18:13 |
|
kados |
well |
| 18:13 |
|
kados |
not quite |
| 18:14 |
|
kados |
koha now converts a form submission into a MARCXML string |
| 18:14 |
|
foxnorth |
and then converts marcxml string into marc::record and puts into db? |
| 18:14 |
|
kados |
well 3.0 stores natively as MARCXML |
| 18:15 |
|
foxnorth |
ah right, in zebra? |
| 18:15 |
|
kados |
storage is in mysql |
| 18:15 |
|
kados |
indexing is in zebra |
| 18:15 |
|
foxnorth |
gotcha |
| 18:15 |
|
foxnorth |
got to get 3.0 setup here |
| 18:16 |
|
foxnorth |
anyway, perhaps this is too far afield for opencat |
| 18:16 |
|
kados |
foxnorth: the docs in that package I sent should help out so long as you have a debian etch box |
| 18:16 |
|
foxnorth |
i'm running ubuntu but i could always put debian etch in vmware |
| 18:16 |
|
kados |
I'd recommend it |
| 18:16 |
|
foxnorth |
will do |
| 18:17 |
|
kados |
installation is a bear |
| 18:17 |
|
kados |
ROAR |
| 18:17 |
|
kados |
:-) |
| 18:17 |
|
kados |
anyway |
| 18:17 |
|
foxnorth |
right, |
| 18:47 |
|
thd |
kados: look at the message which I just posted to the opencataloger-dev list |
| 18:47 |
|
kados |
thd: looking now |
| 18:53 |
|
thd |
kados: if what I describe is not available in open cataloger, you will lose the value of a major differentiator for Koha. I image that will be very expensive loss for marketing Koha support |
| 18:54 |
|
thd |
kados: you will not of course lose anything which you have already but only a significant part of the potential |
| 18:59 |
|
foxnorth |
thd: do you mean an autocomplete-type list populated w/ values such as: a - Language material | c - Notated music ....so that a short description is included along with the value to use? |
| 19:01 |
|
thd |
foxnorth: yes, but also dynamic so that choosing a value for one part/position constrains values for another part/position |
| 19:02 |
|
foxnorth |
yeah, i think both of these would be extremely useful and well received |
| 19:03 |
|
foxnorth |
whatever repetition is necessary in a record (e.g. date in fixed fields and date in publication date area) should be handled by the editor |
| 19:03 |
|
foxnorth |
and eventually validated by the editor where possible (e.g. with dates) |
| 19:06 |
|
thd |
foxforth: however, it is important that the user can avoid being forced to use the additional view by using some preference about what happens upon entering the relevant field/subfield/indicators. But it should always be available contextually with some command or tabbing to a point where it can be actuated and pressing space or enter to actuate. |
| 19:06 |
|
foxnorth |
yeah, i agree |
| 19:06 |
|
foxnorth |
no need to burden someone when they don't need it. |
| 19:06 |
|
foxnorth |
but the option should be available |
| 19:07 |
|
thd |
yes: cataloguers hate repetition which is why often only the textual value subfields are completed for some data elements |
| 19:10 |
|
thd |
foxforth: I did not understand what was intended by a preference to not have popups except that something like what I described which exists as part of the JavaScript forms based Koha editor would not be possible |
| 19:12 |
|
foxnorth |
thd: what i was thinking was that a popup window slows the cataloging down (have to wait for window to open, read, then close), whereas a dropdown or autocomplete appears w/o obscuring the rest of the record, and yet could give the same semantic information (a - Language material ...) |
| 19:13 |
|
foxnorth |
well, it obscures part, but not as much as popup window perhaps? |
| 19:13 |
|
thd |
foxnorth: yes I agree |
| 19:16 |
|
thd |
foxnorth: although it should be possible to have a view which shows all at once the semantic values recorded for an entire field rather than one position or position group at a time |
| 19:18 |
|
thd |
foxnorth: also some position values must constrain the values for other positions and some positions are only filled collectively with others as a group |
| 19:22 |
|
foxnorth |
yeah, a help pane or dialog box or something should be available to provide help for a particular field, with all positions shown |
| 19:23 |
|
foxnorth |
yeah, the fixed fields are complicated! |
| 19:24 |
|
thd |
foxnorth: no feature should unnecessarily constrain the speed of the record editor but the speed of completing a fully completed record is what is important and referring to documentation is much slower than selecting a value directly from a self documenting form |
| 19:24 |
|
foxnorth |
we need a good way to define them and their interactions within the fixed fields and within the larger record as a whole |
| 19:24 |
|
foxnorth |
that's right |
| 19:24 |
|
foxnorth |
as you said, referring to documentation is a deterrent |
| 19:24 |
|
foxnorth |
external documentation, that is |
| 19:27 |
|
thd |
foxnorth it is not only the fixed fields which have his problem but also some indicators work together; many subfields have coded values; and some subfields especially in UNIMARC have fixed length positions just like fixed fields |
| 19:27 |
|
foxnorth |
yes that's true |
| 19:27 |
|
foxnorth |
and i need to get familiar w/ unimarc |
| 19:29 |
|
thd |
UNIMARC 1XX are the equivalents of MARC 21 006-008 |
| 19:29 |
|
foxnorth |
that's about as far as i've gotten in my understanding so far :) |
| 19:30 |
|
foxnorth |
i wonder i there's a tutorial somewhere comparing marc21 and unimarc for catalogers |
| 19:31 |
|
foxnorth |
bbl |
| 19:31 |
|
thd |
there is a UNIMARC to MARC 21 conversion program at LC |
| 20:01 |
|
thd |
kados: are you still there? |
| 00:28 |
|
thd |
kados: ping |
| 08:37 |
|
lloyd |
morning slef |
| 08:50 |
|
slef |
hi |
| 08:50 |
|
dewey |
hello, slef |
| 08:51 |
|
slef |
I started at 8am with a server crash :-/ |
| 08:54 |
|
lloyd |
ahhh nice |
| 08:54 |
|
lloyd |
crappy h/w? :) |
| 08:55 |
|
slef |
No, software needs upgrade, but machine too loaded ATM |
| 08:56 |
|
lloyd |
ahh |
| 08:56 |
|
lloyd |
i started the day at 7:45 with a coffee and 15mins of big brother before getting ready for work :) |
| 09:01 |
|
lloyd |
sad I know |
