IRC log for #koha, 2007-06-14

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:12 kados hey foxnorth
12:17 kados foxnorth: hows the fixed field stuff coming?
12:17 foxnorth hey kados--
12:17 foxnorth i was away yesterday but i'm looking foward to getting it finished!
12:18 kados w00t
12:18 slef karma kados?
12:18 dewey kados has karma of -2
12:18 kados :(
12:18 slef dewey++
12:18 foxnorth kados: actually, i could probably commit what i have (which is marc21.xml and the code for setting up the fixed field editing grid), but i'm not sure if the other marc21.xml file you guys mentioned will turn up?
12:19 kados foxnorth: if it doesn't I can easily contribute one
12:19 kados foxnorth: the Koha frameworks can generate a pretty complete marc21 xml file
12:20 kados foxnorth:[…] (very large file)
12:20 kados foxnorth: I suspect we'll need a few marc21.xml files though
12:20 kados one for each material type
12:21 foxnorth kados: yeah, is that the best way to handle diff material types?
12:21 kados I'm not sure
12:21 kados I can tell you how it works in Koha
12:21 kados we have 'frameworks'
12:21 foxnorth kados: that would be great--
12:21 kados and you can define tags and subfields for each framework
12:22 kados and behavior for each of those
12:22 foxnorth there would be a framework for marc21 and one for unimarc?
12:22 kados so things like authorized values, plugins, default values, authorities, etc
12:22 foxnorth ah, as well as authorized values...
12:22 kados well, there are multiple frameworks for marc21
12:22 kados and for unimarc
12:22 foxnorth i see, library-dependent?
12:22 kados[…]
12:23 kados yea, libraries can define new ones
12:23 kados we haven't really properly finished the marc21 support though
12:23 foxnorth thanks
12:23 kados the frameworks we have aren't fully defined
12:23 foxnorth ah i see.  
12:23 kados and the material types aren't per the marc specification
12:23 foxnorth Is that why i'll need to define the plugins you mentioned (  they're not yet set up?
12:24 kados libraries tend to use local practices to define what frameworks they want to set up
12:24 foxnorth ah interesting.
12:24 kados exactly
12:24 foxnorth ok
12:24 jaron so you could have a monograph and a serials framework for marc21
12:24 kados but ... keep in mind, if there's a better way, we don't have to stick with what we've done before
12:24 kados jaron: yep
12:24 kados jaron: and they could have different leader plugins
12:24 jaron yes
12:24 kados jaron: and 008 plugins, etc.
12:25 foxnorth on a side note, can you point me to the most current docs for setting koha up w/ zebra?   and running the z3950-daemon?  I need to get this set up so i can test the saveToKoha etc... :)
12:25 kados and a different set of visible fields
12:25 foxnorth i see....
12:25 jaron I wonder if there would be a way to just do partial frameworks that share common fields
12:25 kados don't need to run the z3950-daemon anymore, that's deprecated
12:25 foxnorth yeah, in marc21 lots of diff formats use similar fixed fields
12:25 foxnorth oh ok-- didn't realize that!!
12:26 jaron instead of having to maintain a file for each framework (material type or whatever use a library makes of a framework) you'd have one master framework and then partial ones that overlay the master one.
12:26 jaron does that even make sense?
12:26 kados jaron: yes, it does
12:26 kados hard to implement though I think
12:26 foxnorth yeah, that sounds like a good idea....
12:27 jaron kados: probably right.
12:27 jaron well, I guess the challenge right now is just getting it working
12:27 kados :-)
12:27 jaron kados: about that OID z39.50 question
12:28 jaron kados: zoom does convert the recordsyntax string to OID but only shows you the string form of it
12:28 jaron kados: I'm not sure whether zoom knows about ibermarc though
12:29 kados jaron: yea, I've got a support question in to Index Data about which OIDs it knows about
12:29 jaron but Net-Z3950-ZOOM  does know about it
12:33 jaron kados: yaz user's guide lists ibermarc. but I'll be interested in indexdata's answer
12:33 kados I'll post it when I hear back
12:41 slef kados: can we move to oftc instead of freenode?
12:43 kados slef: why?
12:45 kados slef: i've never even heard of oftc
12:47 lloyd yeah what the hell is oftc :)
12:47 lloyd you'll be suggesting next :p
12:48 slef OFTC is the Open and Free Technology Community, which hosts
12:49 slef It's a community-run IRC network and is a project of Software in the Public Interest.
12:49 kados slef: the reason we want to move to freenode is to be more visible, not more obscure ;-)
12:50 lloyd channel already open on freenode?
12:50 slef That's a bad reason to move to freenode.  We could move to any netsplit- and searchirc-indexed network to be more visible.
12:51 kados I've had several folks ask us why we're not on freenode
12:51 kados I've never had anyone ask about oftc
12:51 lloyd well a lot of opensource projects have there homes on freenode
12:52 slef and a lot of people run SirsiDynix.  I don't like the crowd  being used as an argument in favour of something.  Argue on the merits.
12:53 kados slef: the merit to moving to freenode is that we'll get more people involved
12:53 lloyd "Two Internet Relay Chat (IRC) networks that are used heavily by free and open source software projects, freenode and the Open and Free Technology Community (OFTC), are building bridges by swapping staff and observing each other's operations. The rapprochement brings together two organizations that sprang from a single project, and may be a precursor for more intimate ties."
12:53 kados IRC is obscure enough
12:54 slef lloyd: yes, I know that.  While interesting, it's early days.
12:54 lloyd yeah only announced a couple of days ago
12:54 lloyd well.. may
12:54 lloyd lol
12:54 lloyd slef - whats your beef with freenode?
12:54 slef kados: how?  freenode has too many flamers, fanboys and eccentricities like half-bans
12:55 kados hasn't been my experience
12:55 slef lloyd: ultimately, freenode's host organisation, PDPC, is unaccountable and out of community control.  As a result, there are strange decisions, like q-bans and the begging bots and the only option users have is to either leave or talk to the brick wall of PDPC's lawyers.
12:56 slef kados: did you see the begging bots?
12:56 kados slef: nope
12:57 slef I can see an argument for moving to a bigger network that is on the search engines, but freenode is still broken.
13:02 kados slef: being on the search engines wasn't something I had considered
13:02 kados dbs: just in time
13:02 kados dbs: we're battling it out over freenode
13:03 slef If we'd like to go mainstream, maybe some sort of multi-format Instant
13:03 slef Messaging conference would be good.  I'm not sure what's out there.  I know we have jabber conferencing and can link to other network sometimes, but I don't think our setup can link the conferences to the other networks.
13:03 slef kados: you mentioned being more visible.
13:04 dbs slef: this is just my impression over the past few years, but it always seemed weird that koha was off on its own irc server
13:05 dbs that, along with some of the web site organization (I think the wiki was password-protected even for read access for a while a couple of years back?)
13:05 dbs made it seem like the koha project wasn't really all that open
13:06 dbs but those were just my impressions; take them for what they're worth
13:06 slef dbs: the linux kernel is also off on a small net, but fine, let's move
13:06 slef to a network, but please a safer network.
13:07 kados dbs: what about the web site organiation do you find difficult?
13:07 kados the wiki was password protected because we got hit hard with spam
13:07 slef the wiki password was a crude measure by the then-hosts (NWU?) to block spam
13:07 dbs kados: not so much now; things seem to have improved over the last year
13:08 kados smap
13:08 kados snap even
13:09 slef kados: people searching freenode won't find all channels, same as people searching berlios won't find all downloads.
13:10 rch z
13:10 kados hey rch
13:10 dbs slef: other than Freenode, I know EFnet also gets used (by PHP core devs for example). what other network were you thinking of?
13:10 slef wow, there's a #koha on ircnet already... no topic, so I suspect it's albanian
13:10 kados no topic == albanian? ;-)
13:11 slef dbs: I suggest because all koha developers can get membership of its controlling company.
13:11 slef kados: no, but albanian is more common on ircnet than free software or Maori
13:11 kados heh
13:12 dbs well, at least oftc is already configured in kopete :)
13:15 slef I can't get onto ircnet just now, for some reason.
13:15 dbs I guess the presence of the #code4lib on freenode isn't a compelling enough reason to be close
13:20 slef I wrote safer, not secure.  Not sure any IRC is that secure.
13:20 owen Is Freenode's user registration system an unwanted barrier to participation in #koha?
13:20 owen then what do you mean by "safer" ?
13:20 slef More sustainable, controllable, accountable.
13:21 slef Does freenode still require users to register or they get a strange error if they try to privately message anyone?
13:21 rch yep
13:22 slef I guess that might be a barrier.  But in general, registration isn't required?
13:22 lloyd slef - linknet :)
13:22 lloyd secure irc
13:22 lloyd rubbish network though
13:23 slef ircnet#koha is a guy in finland
13:23 jaron at least with freenode registration I have a better idea of identity
13:23 slef jaron: only if you nickserv info everyone.
13:25 slef ircnet#koha op is Matti Lassila - also seen in katipo gallery
13:25 slef[…]EE_LIBRARY_SYSTEM
13:26 slef so I guess ircnet#koha is actually our koha
13:27 slef[…]technorati/sadhu/
13:31 slef owen: kados added it to the dev meeting agenda.  I asked whether he'd s/freenode/oftc
13:33 owen And one of the questions (besides safety) is whether people will think to look for Koha on a particular network?
13:34 slef I don't see why that's a big question.  Anyone searching only one network for Koha is as stupid as anyone who searches only one download site (ibiblio, say) for Koha.
13:35 lloyd why not use one of those channel linking bots? it sits on a bunch of networks and relays chat.. its quite neat
13:35 slef lloyd: is that an offer to run it? ;-)
13:35 owen I agree, slef, at least from my own experience. I'm more likely to search the web for information about a channel than to search a network
13:36 lloyd yah i'll run if needed
13:36 slef I can see arguments for either moving koha to an indexed network, or getting this server indexed.
13:36 owen I still don't know what you mean when you say "more sustainable, controllable, accountable" ... But then I don't know much about administering an IRC channel
13:37 slef owen: more or less: what happens if it all goes wrong for a koha user?
13:37 owen How so?
13:37 slef owen: hope for the best, prepare for the worst, as they say
13:37 slef owen: say one of our users gets an AKILL (connections automatically rejected and closed down) from our chosen network.
13:37 slef say it's not their AKILL - what do we do?
13:38 slef s/AKILL/fault/
13:39 slef with freenode, we can try to take it up with their network operators, but I know some have got their own akills as a result of disputing akills (I think I've only been killed for arguing, not akilled)
13:39 slef then we get a notice to talk to PDPC's lawyers and we can't do anything else.
13:39 lloyd I reckon channel linking bot/relay bot would be great.. freenode being master as well as channels on efnet and oftc
13:39 owen slef, is this something that has come up in this channel before?
13:39 slef lloyd: channel linking bots were banned from freenode early on - are
13:39 slef they allowed now?
13:40 slef owen: don't know.
13:40 lloyd slef - banned? that seems quite anal.
13:42 slef owen: why?
13:43 owen slef, I'm just trying to gauge the likelihood of a possible negative scenario before using that scenario to make a decision.
13:44 kados slef: the benefits on being on the most popular network outweigh the possible negative aspects, especially since I've been using freenode for years with no problems
13:44 lloyd anyone mind if i mess around with a relay bot? here to freenode
13:45 kados and in fact, this is the first time I've heard anyone complain about freenode
13:45 kados lloyd: feel free
13:45 owen kados, what do you think about the nick registration?
13:45 kados well, you don't have to register to chat, just to private message
13:46 slef kados: ircnet is more popular than freenode; and I've seen too
13:46 slef complaints about freenode to feel theyare nice.
13:46 kados but I do agree that's a bit annoying
13:46 owen Ah, I didn't realize it was just for private messaging.
13:49 slef owen: I don't know how likely it is, but I've seen it happen enough to be concerned that the problems don't seem to have been fixed.
13:50 kados slef: how about this: we use freenode, and if we have problems, we evaluate what to do
13:50 slef kados--
13:51 slef both lloyd's relay idea and more than a 3-minute meeting discussion seem better ideas
13:52 owen It's going to be hard enough to cover all that ground
13:52 slef so do I, so why dig your heels in?
13:52 kados slef: you're the one digging :-)
13:52 slef like heck
13:53 kados lets take a poll
13:53 slef how about keep the status quo then?  If visibility is a problem, ask citylink to apply to the search engines
13:53 slef for listing
13:54 kados I think you're missing the point
13:54 kados that was raised by some
13:55 slef Maybe, so why not explain it?
13:55 kados it's not that isn't in search engines that's the problem
13:55 kados it's that a lot of IRC users only use freenode
13:55 kados and if we want to attract more developers and make it easy for them to get in tough
13:55 kados touch even
13:56 slef If you define the problem as "koha is not on freenode" then that's begging the question.
13:56 kados we should have a presense on the most popular network
13:56 kados yep, that's the problem
13:56 kados koha's not on freenode
13:56 slef so try lloyd's relay first.
13:56 kados sure
13:58 slef Personally, "koha's not on freenode" seems a feature not a bug.  Makes it easier to be here.
13:59 owen We shouldn't be looking for "easier"
13:59 slef Similar to "koha lists are not on google groups" is a feature.
13:59 kados slef: maybe we have different assumptions about where we want this project to go?
13:59 owen We should be looking for "more people talking about koha"
14:00 slef kados: I want sustainability.  How about you?
14:00 kados yep, sustainability requires more users
14:00 kados to get more users we need better visibility
14:00 slef Requires us to keep them, too.
14:00 kados I gotta run
14:00 kados bbl
14:00 slef If #koha is on freenode, then PDPC can close us down any day.
14:01 owen slef, do you know of projects who have had their channel shut down?
14:02 slef Yes. Do I have the details at my fingertips? No.
14:02 owen If you're suggesting that it's a possibility we need to examine the circumstances under which it may occur.
14:03 owen Wouldn't the same be true if #koha were on OFTC ?
14:04 slef We'd have at least three appeal chances: NOC (informal), OFTC constitution (formal) and SPI (parent body).
14:05 toins kados: why not on ?
14:05 toins (hi all)
14:05 slef toins: which network is that?
14:05 toins slef: don't know
14:06 owen ?
14:06 toins yep
14:06 slef MAGnet
14:06 toins magnet yes
14:07 toins big perl project are there
14:07 toins but perhaps less visibility than freenode...
14:07 slef not on either search index, but might be an interesting audience
14:08 owen Yeah, that doesn't address the issue of capitalizing on freenode's popularity.
14:08 slef Interestingly, freenode isn't completely listed on - it's marked as a Maverick
14:08 slef owen: but if popularity was the main drive, ircnet is bigger and there's a near-empty #koha there already.
14:12 slef toins: main argument against is that the koha project gets no control of #koha there, but then I'm not sure we have any control of this #koha (is any regular an oper here?)
14:13 slef actually, they assign some other channels to projects, so I guess we might
14:15 koha <_lloyd_@fn> hola
14:15 slef (shhh, everyone be quiet and make him wonder whether it's broken)
14:17 lloyd mmm - could do with making a little prettier
14:26 [K] <_lloyd_@FreeNode> ping
14:26 lloyd pong
14:27 lloyd mmmm... whatcha think?
14:27 slef seems to work... time will tell, I guess
14:27 lloyd its only configured for the two networks atm
14:28 lloyd hang on, let me daemonize it
14:29 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: rch
14:30 [K] <rch@FreeNode> sushi?
14:30 lloyd eew
14:31 rch hmm. interesting
14:31 lloyd I can keep it on this server for a while, should you wish to keep it i'll move it somewhere else
14:32 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: toins
14:32 slef lloyd: I didn't find a clear ban on relay bots by freenode, FWIW, but I didn't look that much.
14:32 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: ow1n n=ow1n@
14:32 lloyd I had a look too.. couldnt find anything
14:33 [K] * ow1n@FreeNode taps the microphone
14:33 slef I guess the akill will be a pretty clear signal if there is a ban ;-)
14:33 owen Very confusing. Not a long-term solution I think.
14:33 rch i'd have to say I'd prefer to have one #koha on a public server network.
14:34 rch but this would be a nice transition
14:34 lloyd owen - it's confusing because you're in two channels... you'd normally only be in 1
14:34 lloyd well why not have 1 main public network, and have the bot sitting on efnet/oftc incase anybody comes looking for us
14:34 owen confusing because I see <[K]> speaking for anyone on Freenode, rather than those users speaking for themselves.
14:34 slef[…]y_a_piece_of_net/ is a critique of their past (note: Rob Levin died a while ago)
14:35 [K] <rch@FreeNode> can you /who the relay bot?
14:36 lloyd mmhmm
14:36 [K] <rch@FreeNode> to see who's on koha@Katipo?
14:36 lloyd you can also PM between networks too
14:36 lloyd no you cant do that
14:37 [K] *** part FreeNode!#koha: ow1n n=ow1n@
14:37 slef is a gentoo-related thread
14:37 [K] *** part FreeNode!#koha: rch
14:39 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: jaron
14:40 [K] <jaron@FreeNode> testing 1, 2, 3
14:40 jaron testing 4, 5, 6
14:41 [K] *** part FreeNode!#koha: jaron
14:46 lloyd that guy does sound like an ass
14:49 slef he was, IMO, but I think the policies and systems he set up are still in place.
14:59 lloyd guys... Its hard work running this relay bot.. I've had to employ myself to maintain it
14:59 lloyd so... donations are welcome
14:59 jaron lloyd++
14:59 lloyd :)
15:00 jaron lloyd: now you just need to get the relay bot to ask for money every few minutes
15:01 jaron lloyd: "a suggested donation of $.10 per message"
15:01 lloyd oooh yah... I could put another bot online to count the amount of messages
15:04 jaron lloyd: soon you'll be able to quit your day job
15:05 lloyd i've already handed my notice in!
15:11 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: dbs n=dan@pdpc/supporter/active/denials
15:11 [K] <dbs@FreeNode> relay bot... interesting
15:14 dbs Are you thinking of having [K] announce something like "Hey, there's 40 of us over on!" when a freenode person joins the channel?
15:16 lloyd nah my suggestion was when we move to freenode to have the bot in all other channels here/oftc/efnet.. with a topic saying the main channel is over on freenode but you can still talk to us here
15:18 dbs lloyd: cool -- here's my $0.10 (CDN)
15:19 lloyd excuse me.. its $0.30 now.. Two relays from here and 1 relay from freenode
15:19 dewey lloyd: The server at (port 666) appears to be down.
15:19 lloyd dewey?
15:19 dewey yes, lloyd?
15:22 lloyd haha :
15:22 slef asr = alt.sysadmin.recovery?
15:23 lloyd no idea, just found that
15:24 jaron dewey: is the plate voltage too low on the demodulator tube?
15:24 slef alt.sysadmin.recovery FAQ v0.49
15:24 slef I'm very old.  My legs are grey and my eyes are bent.
15:26 lloyd i've got to say, those chocolate covered coffee beans sound nice!
15:32 lloyd Hey kados - got a moment to chat?
15:32 kados lloyd: do now
15:33 kados what's up?
15:33 lloyd ILL feature of Koha.. does it exist yet?
15:34 kados depends on what you define as ILL
15:34 kados there are ILL features
15:34 kados we have code to support the ISO ILL standard
15:35 kados and some specs for NCIP (no code yet though)
15:35 lloyd ability to send off articles (photocopys) or books to librarys, not just those that are sub branches
15:35 kados well you can do it with institutional borrowers
15:35 kados how do you get the request initiated is the question
15:36 kados managing the request through the phases of fullfillment isn't included yet
15:36 kados there are two ways to do it: ISO standard and NCIP
15:36 kados we have some code to support the ISO standard, but it's never been integrated
15:36 lloyd interesting
15:36 kados if you don't need the request to be managed (ie, the current koha libraries just use paper)
15:37 kados so it depends on what you define as ILL ;-)
15:37 lloyd yeah it needs to be managed to because they are added to the stats for loaning
15:37 kados well it would be added to the stats still
15:37 kados as a checkout
15:37 kados because you'd be issuing it to a institution
15:38 kados just the request itself isn't managed
15:38 kados so the borrowing institution needs to send an email, or a fax, or the library needs a web form or something to initiate the request
15:38 lloyd yeah i've got ya
15:38 kados cool
15:38 lloyd so you've got the code (apart from the request) to do ILL?
15:39 kados the code I have is from a system Yale developed about 4-5 years ago
15:39 kados it usese the ISO ILL standard
15:39 kados you need to find out what the resource sharing network you want to do ILL with uses
15:40 kados to pick which ILL standard to go wtih (ILL vs NCIP at this point)
15:40 kados make sense?
15:40 lloyd jup
15:40 lloyd reason I ask is ILL will be a requirement, the 28 librarys or so have sent me some document on how'd they'd like it to work
15:41 kados ahh, fantastic
15:41 kados will it be just between the 28 libraries?
15:41 lloyd there document lists things like.. request date, date collected, date sent, date renewed, date due back
15:41 kados or outside the network too?
15:41 lloyd outside too
15:41 kados I'd suggest NCIP
15:41 kados it's much newer
15:42 kados and more complete
15:42 lloyd hold on, i'll send you the document over
15:42 lloyd sent
15:43 kados ahh
15:43 kados it's Document Delivery + ILL
15:43 kados very cool lloyd
15:44 lloyd haha... yeah the colour scheme is nothing to do with me :p
15:45 slef lloyd: that reminds me.  Do you have corporate standards for library management systems?  I couldn't see anything, but policies are not as well-indexed as drugs.
15:45 lloyd no... well sorta
15:46 lloyd they're agreed upon per readon
15:46 lloyd check out
15:46 slef interesting... thanks
15:47 lloyd some hospitals here run access :)
15:47 lloyd some are still using paper
18:25 kados foxnorth: how's it going?
18:25 foxnorth hey kados-- did you get my latest email?  does it make sense to you?
18:25 kados oops, missed it
18:25 kados looking now
18:26 kados no_popups++
18:26 foxnorth great-- just want to make sure we're on the same page now that i understand koha's side of things
18:26 foxnorth right
18:26 kados I'm thinking more like a livesearch or something
18:26 kados has an example
18:26 foxnorth ok lemme check that out
18:26 kados the liblime home page search too
18:26 kados (takes a sec to load though)
18:27 kados re: #2
18:27 foxnorth so basically instead of a dropdown menu, do an autocomplete/livesearch to fill in permissible values for fixed fields?  sounds good to me
18:27 kados yea
18:27 foxnorth gotcha.  
18:27 kados ok, #2
18:28 kados this gets down to the marc standard
18:28 foxnorth right...the difficult part!
18:28 kados the problem is, based on the material type
18:28 kados the field values change
18:28 kados so there isn't just one set of 008 values
18:28 kados make sense?
18:28 foxnorth right both play a role and make things tricky...
18:28 kados yea
18:28 kados I think we need to take the approach EG took
18:29 foxnorth right-- not sure if this xml based approach is a good way
18:29 kados yea
18:29 kados maybe better to just detect the material type from the leader
18:29 kados and populate fixed fields from there
18:29 foxnorth yeah that's what i would say.
18:29 kados using javascript
18:30 foxnorth hhm.  
18:30 kados or whatever you think is best
18:30 kados honestly, you're probably the best to decide on this
18:31 kados as far as _how_ to implement it I mean
18:33 kados foxnorth: and you can just commit to the project I think
18:33 kados foxnorth: at this point it's just you, toins and I working on it
18:33 foxnorth right ok
18:34 kados easier to just run svn update than muddle around with patches and moving files, etc :-)
18:34 kados version_control++
18:34 foxnorth yeah i agree-- but i wasn't sure this is in a state decent enough to commit! :)
18:34 foxnorth yet...
18:35 kados I wouldn't worry about that, esp since we're pre-release
18:35 foxnorth ok, good to know...
18:36 kados eventually we can branch when working on ne features and then merge when they are stable
18:37 foxnorth lemme just run and look at the evergreen javascript again for a sec...
18:48 kados hi johnb
18:51 foxnorth kados: when you said before you thought it would be good to use the EG approach for opencataloger fixed field editing, which part of that approach are you thinking of?
18:51 foxnorth Is it the use, for e.g., of fixed_fields.js file ([…].2.2&view=markup) you're thinking of?  
18:51 kados mainly the display of them
18:51 kados a drop-down value list goes beyond what EG has
18:51 kados afaik
18:52 foxnorth right, that's what i thought.
18:52 foxnorth OK, good.
18:52 kados but a drop-down would be really cool
18:52 foxnorth definately need dropdown/ autocomplete
18:52 kados yea
18:52 foxnorth ok, so let me commit my current fixed field version to play with
18:53 foxnorth and basically you think the xml based descriptive approach for fixed field definitions will work out ok?  going along with the current use of unimarc.xml?
18:56 kados yea
18:56 foxnorth committed...
18:56 kados foxnorth++
18:58 foxnorth kados: ok, so i think next steps are to generalize my fixed field editor grid functions and modify the marc structure xml files to define what's a fixed field, rather than pick individual elements from the structural file.
18:58 kados I wonder ...
18:58 foxnorth ?
18:59 kados so how does this work with the getstructurefrom koha
18:59 foxnorth right, that's where i would need to modify that script to return permissible fixed field values.
18:59 foxnorth possibly using already existing plugins??
18:59 kados wouldn't need to
18:59 kados so I updated
19:00 kados but don't see the fixed field parts
19:00 kados ahh, now I do
19:00 kados not for a new record though
19:00 kados just for an existing one
19:00 foxnorth right, you would need to modify opencataloger.xml: structure=marc21...
19:00 foxnorth brb
19:01 kados format you mean?
19:03 kados foxnorth: I now have an unhappy opencat :-)
19:03 kados foxnorth: display's kinda mangled for records and the fixed fields aren't displaying properly
19:08 kados huh
19:08 kados for some results it works fine
19:08 kados foxnorth: those drop downs own!
19:09 kados foxnorth: don't seem to dynamically update the field in the record though
19:09 kados hmmm
19:11 foxnorth ok i'm back--
19:12 foxnorth um, right, in conf like this:
19:12 foxnorth <structure value="/cgi-bin/opencatalo​ger/"
19:12 foxnorth               format="marc21"
19:12 foxnorth               koha="true"
19:12 foxnorth               encoding="UTF-8"
19:12 foxnorth               charsubfield="&#8225;"
19:12 foxnorth    />
19:12 kados yep, except I have koha="false"
19:12 foxnorth ah right, better leave that false for right now
19:12 foxnorth that's right, it's not dynamically updating field in record right now, only on saving
19:13 foxnorth for some results it's mangled?
19:13 foxnorth hhm, havne't had that
19:13 foxnorth can you tell me which record you searched for on opencat.liblime adn i can check it out?
19:45 tnb owen: you around?
19:45 owen yes
19:46 tnb do you have time to hop on gmail chat?
19:46 owen Sure
19:46 tnb i wanted to pick your brain about something
20:00 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: toins_
20:37 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: toins_
23:16 kados thd: hi
23:16 dewey niihau, kados
23:16 thd hello kados
23:28 thd I have just separated over 500 lines of function code from 20,000 lines of program code and now I will add the logic which goes with them.
23:28 kados thd++
23:29 thd kados: I assume that you do not want to hunt through 20.000 lines of unfamiliar PHP code yourself :)
23:29 kados hehe
23:29 kados thd++
23:45 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: denials n=dan@pdpc/supporter/active/denials
23:47 kados hi denials
23:48 kados thd: how's the logic coming?
23:49 thd I have saved a nice short file now I just need to attach it to my email
23:49 kados w00t
23:52 [K] <denials@FreeNode> hola kados
23:57 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: kados
23:57 [K] <kados@FreeNode> interesting
23:58 [K] *** part FreeNode!#koha: kados
23:58 kados guess that works well enough
23:58 kados lloyd++
00:02 thd s/fore/for/
00:04 thd kados: how fast do you write X00 lines of code?
00:05 kados thd: slowly
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00:11 thd kados: check your mail.  The first message is missing the attachment
00:12 kados looking now
00:14 kados thd: lets go through this function by function
00:14 kados I'll keep notes
00:14 kados :-)
00:14 kados thd: f000MARC
00:14 kados obviously for the leader
00:14 kados but what is it trying to do?
00:14 thd kados: why not start with the program logic below?
00:15 kados ok
00:15 thd past all the functions
00:16 kados ok, so we detect recFormat, recType, mediaType
00:16 thd kados: no
00:17 thd kados: we only no these values in advance: $targetURL, $targetAuth, $targetSyntax, $targetEncoding, $targetSemantics, $targetName
00:18 thd kados: just general values about the target nothing specific about the record yet
00:18 kados right
00:18 kados I get that
00:18 kados so this code will tell you what you have
00:19 kados based on the record content
00:19 thd kados: we know that it is not SUTRS and therefore must be some form of MARC since I have no provision for other types so far
00:21 kados preg_match is missing
00:21 thd kados: are you trying to execute this code? :)
00:21 kados no
00:21 kados just noticed that
00:22 thd noticed it where?
00:22 kados preg_match is called quite a lot
00:22 kados but there's no function preg_match
00:22 thd kados: that is a built in function in PHP
00:22 kados ahh
00:22 thd it is a perl regular expression match
00:23 kados gotcha
00:24 kados so this will tell us the format, record type and media type
00:24 thd kados: $rec = yaz_record($id[$i],$p,"string"); obtains a record formatted with line breaks, not a raw record
00:24 kados of an existing record
00:24 kados thd: right, gathered that
00:24 thd and more
00:24 kados more?
00:25 kados what else?
00:25 thd kados: well maybe I did not supply more
00:26 thd kados: you do not need the endless encoding functions and logic because you already have everything in UTF-8 for the editor
00:26 kados thd: what I'd like to see, is a walk through of the order of operations to determine valid values for a MARC record
00:26 thd so back to the logic
00:26 kados ie, step 1: pick LEADER/06 and LEADER/07
00:27 kados step 2: pick 008
00:27 kados then, that results in a template with all the appropriate fields defined
00:28 kados and based on the initial choices, the template is different
00:28 kados thd: is that how you envision it ?
00:28 thd kados: there is some junk in the functions to find the leader originally because PHP/YAZ reports parser errors as part of the formatted record before the leader
00:28 thd kados: yes
00:30 thd except that if you have UNIMARC then you have 100 instead of 008
00:30 kados lets forget about unimarc for a second
00:30 thd :(
00:30 kados we'll come back to it
00:31 thd you have functions for IBERMARC, etc. as well
00:31 kados MARC21 Bibliographic Monographs is what I'd like to focus on for a sec
00:32 thd OK :)
00:32 kados ok, so we have to first pick the marc flavor, MARC21
00:32 kados that does nothing directly to the record, but pick a template
00:33 kados then we pick bibliographic, and that also does nothing to the record but pick a template, there's no marker in the record in marc21 specifying bibliographic as opposed to authority or holdings, right?
00:35 thd kados: more than flavour
00:36 kados ?
00:38 thd kados: you need $targetSyntax and $targetSemantics: tow values which are not always the same but maybe only $targetSemantics is used in this part of the code
00:38 thd s/tow/two/
00:39 thd read marcFlavour = $targetSemantics if that is enough here
00:39 kados thd: sure
00:39 kados thd: I've shifted a bit, not talking directly about your code
00:40 kados thd: I'm just trying to identify the steps to arriving at a template for a MARC record
00:40 kados thd: first is pick a standard: MARC21, then the type of MARC21 record it is, Bibliographic (as opposed to Authority, Holdings, etc.)
00:41 kados but those choices aren't reflected in the data of the record
00:41 kados unlike some choices, like encoding, which is in LEADER//09
00:41 kados am I correct?
00:41 thd kados: right, just as long as you remember that some libraries will need separate values for the syntax and semantics variables even if they are not your customers yet
00:42 kados what's the difference between syntax and semantics in MARC?
00:43 thd kados: yes exactly because the meaning of the leader changes by the value of $recFormat
00:44 thd kados: syntax is the structure of the record (not a good explanation).  semantics is what the fields mean
00:45 kados syntax = MARC21, semantics = Bibliographic ?
00:46 kados problem is, semantics are not only set at that level, but also further defined by at least material type and maybe fixed fields int he 008 IIRC
00:46 kados that's what i'm really after here anyway, is the semantics
00:46 thd kados: no, syntax = 'MARC21' and semantics = 'MARC21' most of the time
00:47 thd kados: yes, I think for this part of the code you do not have to worry about syntax
00:49 thd kados: $recFormat = 'bibliographic' etc. not $targetSemantics as I defined the variables in this code
00:50 thd kados: I tried to be very careful about nomenclature because the code would otherwise be unreadable
00:50 kados right
00:50 kados ok
00:51 kados so next we choose material type and bibliographic level
00:51 thd kados: so the various MARC standards call Bibligraphic the Bibliographic Format and Authorities the Authorities Format
00:51 kados since we are restricting ourselves to Monographic records (single part)
00:52 thd kados: yes
00:52 kados that means that LEADER07 is now 'a' and LEADER/06 can be one of several values
00:52 kados what changes in the semantics of the record as we shift from type to type in the LEADER/06?
00:53 thd ?
00:53 kados maybe the wrong question
00:53 thd do you mean what variable changes?
00:53 kados no
00:54 kados if we have type 'a', we have one template, if we have type 'l' we have another, right?
00:54 kados so what differences are there in the record based on those choices?
00:54 thd do you mean how do I know what MARC 21 008 value to assign?
00:54 kados yes, but not just 008
00:54 kados what other fields are affected by that choice?
00:55 thd 007 but I did not get quite that far
00:55 kados hehe
00:57 thd do you see the URL
00:58 kados yes
00:58 thd the roadmap does have a couple of mistakes I never bothered to fix but probably need to by this weekend
00:58 kados I love the header :-)
00:59 thd do you mean the image?
00:59 kados no, the text at the very top :-)
01:00 kados so you group bibliographic and holdings together?
01:00 thd the navigation links are part of my special python scripts for Zope
01:00 kados ok, so ...
01:00 thd do you mean in the roadmap or the code?
01:00 kados bibliographic and holdings are together?
01:01 thd kados: well they share a very large set of common semantics unlike other record formats
01:01 kados right, but are still different in important ways, no?
01:02 kados this roadmap is for detection
01:02 kados of various characteristics of a record
01:02 kados what we need is the exact opposite
01:03 thd kados: yes but not important enough to make a great difference for how my code reported field labels etc. at the level of detail which it returned values
01:03 thd :)
01:03 kados we need to be able to 'browse' if you will through the series of questions to arrive at a MARC template
01:04 kados with the end result being a template/framework that defines authorized values where available in the standard employed
01:04 kados thd: is that what you envision?
01:05 thd yes
01:05 kados ok, so do we have the steps defined correctly so far?
01:06 kados we have selected LEADER/07
01:06 kados now, we select LEADER/06
01:06 kados what next?
01:07 kados (say we pick 'a' for LEADER/06)
01:08 kados now we go to the 008, right?
01:08 thd yes, $mediaType at the most primitive level
01:09 kados and the valid values for 008 and the meaning of those values changes depending on the choice for LEADER/06, right?
01:10 thd yes, if only monographs are considered
01:11 kados ok, so we need some code that explains how the options change depending on LEADER/06
01:11 kados now
01:11 thd explains?
01:12 kados defines
01:12 kados if we fill out 008, does that change the valid values or meaning of those values for any other fields?
01:13 thd 008 can change 007
01:13 kados interesting
01:13 kados example?
01:13 dewey i heard example was 750 #0$aSummer resorts$0(DLC)sh85130430$wna
01:13 thd maybe
01:15 thd yes
01:17 kados thd: you have found an example?
01:18 thd if you have cartographic material 008 maps, then 008 /25 may be d for globe which will have a different meaning for 007 from other values of 008 /25
01:19 kados I think that is the only case though
01:19 kados
01:19 kados For the 007 fields, the values for each data element are not listed, except for 007/00 (Category of material). In all cases, all values are valid for BK, CF, MP, MU, SE, VM and MX. Thus while the 007 defined for globe still pertains only to globe material, it may be used in a BK, MU, etc. record.
01:21 kados I assume this is applies in the case of a mixed materials record?
01:21 kados thd: it's a difference of omission
01:22 kados thd: I don't see any differences in the meaning of the values, other than for globe, the last few do'nt apply
01:22 kados thd: am I right?
01:22 thd what about remote sensing image?
01:22 kados hmmm
01:23 thd I assume that starts as cartographic material
01:23 kados I think the 007 is independent
01:23 kados it says clearly: In all cases, all values are valid for BK, CF, MP, MU, SE, VM and MX. Thus while the 007 defined for globe still pertains only to globe material, it may be used in a BK, MU, etc. record.
01:24 kados so we can put a 007 for globes on a BK record
01:24 kados I need to adjust our search indexes based on this new info :-)
01:25 kados Field 007 is repeatable to allow for coding different physical formats covered by the same cataloging record. For example, a record which describes a videocassette available in Beta and VHS formats will have two separate 007 fields.
01:26 thd nevermind 007/00 defines the semantics for 007
01:26 kados yep
01:26 kados ok, so any other fields we need to consider, or does the buck stop with 008?
01:26 thd I have not looked at 007 for a few months :)
01:27 kados me either :-)
01:27 kados I like 007 though
01:27 kados it's one of my favorites
01:27 thd 245 $h
01:27 kados because it's consistant
01:28 kados $h is not an authorized value according to the specification though
01:28 kados it's human editable, right?
01:29 kados yep
01:29 kados ‡h [art original] ‡h [microscope slides]
01:29 kados ‡h [art reproduction] ‡h [model]
01:29 kados ‡h [chart] ‡h [motion picture]
01:29 kados ‡h [diorama] ‡h [picture]
01:29 kados ‡h [electronic resource] ‡h [realia]
01:29 kados ‡h [filmstrip] ‡h [slide]
01:29 kados ‡h [flash card] ‡h [sound recording]
01:29 kados ‡h [game] ‡h [technical drawing]
01:29 kados ‡h [graphic] * ‡h [toy]
01:29 kados ‡h [kit] ‡h [transparency]
01:29 kados ‡h [microform] ‡h [videorecording]
01:29 kados wow, there's a Library of Congress Rule Interpretations
01:29 thd kados: yes but my investigations have shown that 245 $h is one of the few places which record information accurately in some national libraries and it is an authorised value just not a coded one
01:30 kados hmmm
01:30 kados
01:31 kados
01:31 kados General Material Designation
01:31 thd however, authorised values very from library to library and no value should be used for books
01:31 kados ok, but we will stick to the standard here
01:32 kados OCLC seems to have more defined than itsmarc
01:32 kados I assume OCLC is up to date
01:32 kados so we'll use their definition list
01:32 thd yes
01:32 kados any other fields to consider?
01:32 thd OCLC takes 245 $h seriously
01:33 kados can we map the values in 245 $h to 008?
01:33 kados for instance, what is [art original] ?
01:33 kados in 008?
01:34 thd yes and to the leader as well because of the libraries which have false information in the leader
01:34 kados ?
01:35 kados what value in 008 results in [art original] ?
01:35 thd national libraries defining videorecordings as books in the leader for example
01:35 thd art original is visual material in 008
01:36 kados how is that different than [art reproduction] ?
01:36 kados in the 008?
01:36 kados or do we say:
01:36 kados if (visual material) {
01:36 kados valid values for 245 $h are: [art reproduction] or [art original]
01:36 kados ?
01:37 thd exactly
01:37 kados ok, lets map these quickly
01:38 thd maybe the logic should run in two directions though because of the problem for bad values in the records
01:38 kados we can add that later
01:38 kados right now, we're just starting from scratch with a new record
01:39 thd so then it better to try to direct sequential editing from the beginning of the record to some degree
01:40 kados so to arrive at the proper values for 245$h
01:40 kados we check the material type in LEADER/06
01:40 kados then positions 18-34 in 008
01:40 kados right?
01:41 thd hmmm yes
01:41 kados ok, lets run some examples
01:41 kados say we have material type 'a'
01:42 thd I was just thinking about electronic resources
01:42 kados for material type 'a', what values in the 008 will determine the possible values fo 245 $h?
01:44 thd 008 /23 is one
01:45 kados 23 is Form of item
01:45 kados so if it is 's' then it's [electronic resource]
01:47 thd kados: actually anything can be an electronic resource in 245 $h
01:47 kados ?
01:47 kados what order should we check the 008 fields?
01:47 kados 245 $h isn't repeatable
01:47 kados so it can only be one format
01:48 kados what I mean is
01:48 kados it can only be one GMD
01:48 kados General Material Designation
01:48 thd true
01:49 thd first we have determine what type of material 008 designates
01:49 thd then we check the appropriate position in 008 for that type of material
01:50 kados yes, so first we check the leader
01:50 thd yes
01:50 kados so lets start with type 'a'
01:50 kados now we check 008/23
01:50 thd as long as we only have a monograph
01:52 kados we do
01:52 kados :-)
01:52 kados right now we have a MARC21 Bibliographic Monograph BK (LEADER/06 == 'a')
01:52 kados        if ($materialType = 'BKS') {
01:52 kados                if ($ff_008.substr(23,1) == 's') {
01:52 kados                        $gmd = '[electronic resource]';
01:52 kados                }
01:53 kados so what other values for 008/23 can we map to 245$h?
01:54 kados 008/23 == 'a' means [microform]
01:55 thd what is the URL for the OCLC list for 245 $h?
01:55 kados[…]ging/default.shtm
01:55 kados GMDs and Library of Congress Rule Interpretations
01:58 kados 'b' is microfiche
01:59 kados thos are the only three from 008/23 for LEADER/06 == 'a'
02:02 kados I have concluded that for LEADER/06 == 'a', the only detection we can do is if 008/23 is 's', 'a', or 'b'
02:02 kados if it's not one of those three, I think we have to display all GMDs as an option
02:04 thd yes
02:08 thd the OCLC list looks a little small compared to the one I have in the 1978 version of AACR2
02:12 thd kados: I think the OCLC list of GMDs is a subset for applying special rules
02:13 thd kados: where is your subscription to Cataloger's Desktop?
02:15 kados hehe
02:15 kados don't have one
02:20 kados thd:
02:20 kados can we eliminate any of the 245$h options based on soley the LEADER/06?
02:21 kados say, for example that LEADER/06 is 'a', which 245$h options remain out of the following:
02:21 kados [art original]|[microscope slides]|[art reproduction]|[model]|[chart]|[motion picture]|[diorama]|[picture]|[electronic resource]|[realia]|[filmstrip]|[slide]|[flash card]|[sound recording]|[game]|[technical drawing]|[graphic]|[toy]|[kit]|[trans​parency]|[microform]|[videorecording]
02:22 thd there should be more from which to start
02:23 kados really?
02:23 kados that's what OCLC uses
02:23 kados we can add more later if we need to
02:23 kados thd: lets restrict ourselves to just OCLC conventions
02:23 thd what is the Cataloger's Reference shelf URL where you found a list of GMDs?
02:24 kados thd: then, we can add more later
02:24 kados thd: for the sake of time, lets just use OCLC for now
02:24 thd kados: those are not the OCLC conventions but only a subset
02:24 kados we can cross reference after the logic is in place
02:24 thd OK
02:25 kados what additional GMDs exist ?
02:25 thd map and globe for example in the US
02:26 kados hmmm
02:26 kados MARC is hard :-)
02:26 thd they were both cartographic material in the UK
02:27 thd current UK standards may have adopted US standards for GMDs
02:27 kados Library of Congress Rule Interpretations I think is what we need to reference
02:27 kados to find out the GMDs
02:27 kados itsmarc doesn't have as many as OCLC lists, so I assume they are working from an earlier version
02:28 thd kados: They are in Cataloger's Desktop subscription along with the current edition of AACR2
02:28 kados which neither of us have :(
02:29 thd \kados: that list only refers to how to apply a particular rule and only lists the subset GMDs which apply to that rule
02:31 thd I do have the 1978 list and I am confident that maps and globes etc. did not fall into the void after being outlawed
02:31 kados thd: ahh, my latest interpretation of the OCLC page is that it lists all mandatory GMDs
02:32 kados "If one of the following GMDs is applicable, it is mandatory "
02:32 thd exactly, there are more which are optional
02:33 kados ok, lets just do mandatory for now
02:33 kados man, this is really gonna take a long time
02:34 kados especially when we circle back and remove all our contraints
02:34 thd :)
02:34 kados MARC21 Bibliographic Monographs Mandatory only
02:35 thd kados: a subscription to Cataloger's Desktop is indispensable for doing this sort of thing well
02:36 kados yea
02:36 kados ok, so we've done BKS
02:36 kados I am inclined to pause the exercise and assume we can find the relevant values for 245 $h for the rest of the material types
02:37 kados what other fields do we need to consider if any?
02:38 thd next: computer files will always be electronic resources maybe
02:38 thd electronic resources are tricky
02:39 kados yea
02:40 kados a computer file could be a game or a graphic, or a picture or a slide or a sound recording
02:40 thd then we have
02:41 thd 008/25 for maps
02:41 kados whoever defined these catetories is a moron
02:41 kados really narrow view of the world
02:42 thd that does not disturb me but the unevenness of 40 years worth of committee work does
02:43 kados lets move on from 245 $h, and assume we can parse through the documentation and find what we need for that based on the leader, 008, and (in the case of globes) 040
02:43 kados what other fields do we need to consider?
02:43 kados 006 perhaps?
02:43 thd 040?
02:44 kados Only use the “graphic� GMD when applying the “Graphic Materials� descriptive conventions. Note that these conventions are being applied with the value “gihc� in subfield ‡e of field 040.
02:44 kados s/globes/graphic/
02:45 thd one point is that 245 $h should have a 'no value' unused option by default
02:45 kados ok
02:46 kados noted
02:46 kados 006 then?
02:49 thd 006 is almost identical to 008 in function except that it is repeatable for additional material which may be part of the bibliographic item such as a CD in the back of a book, etc.
02:50 kados does it only apply with mixed materials?
02:51 thd not the special sense of mixed materials from 006 as far as I know
02:57 thd the definition that you suggested corresponds to how mixed materials is used in AACR2 - 1978.  However, I have found 006 used in the real world when 000/06 was not mixed materials
03:01 thd you can see from the code which I sent you where I include MARC 008 equivalents to UNIMARC 100 values that UNIMARC defines mixed materials as multimedia
03:02 kados lets avoid UNIMARC for now
03:02 thd just trying to clarify the MARC 21 meaning
03:04 thd in actual practise use of 006 is rare. but cataloguers do not have nice plugins to help them fill the coded values
03:06 thd but in any case 006 cannot be preconstrained by an earlier value
03:07 kados except for 008?
03:07 kados and the leader
03:07 dewey rumour has it the leader is very necessary
03:07 kados right?
03:08 thd 006/00 determines the meaning of the other positions
03:09 thd similar to 007/00.  If only that had been done for 008 then 008 would be easier
03:11 thd starting text for 300 can be filled from 008
03:11 kados example?
03:11 dewey well, example is 750 #0$aSummer resorts$0(DLC)sh85130430$wna
03:13 thd I have examples in the hints on cataloguing for the last job which I did for you
03:17 kados thd:
03:19 kados thd: when you say 'starting text for 300, do you mean 'part of the text for 300?
03:19 kados it's not always going to be starting, in the case of 6 CDs for example, the CDs is the part I assume that could be derived
03:20 thd I think I included special hints in the librarian label fo 300 $a for various types of records which were created for ASMP
03:22 kados I think the 300 field is impossible to index anyway
03:22 thd exactly so 000/06 == 'a' for monographs would suggest 300 $a p. $c cm.
03:23 kados so in this case, you would want a popup
03:23 kados to ask the number of pages and cm. of the book
03:23 kados or ...
03:23 thd it has to be free form
03:23 kados highlight the 300 field to indicate it needs to be filled out
03:24 thd having even the $a p. $c cm. there is a big time saver if you have many records to do
03:26 kados function field_300_partial_values {
03:26 kados        if ($materialType == 'BKS') {
03:26 kados                field_300a = 'p.';
03:26 kados                field_300c - 'cm.';
03:26 kados        }
03:26 kados }
03:26 thd actually I left out the semicolon: 300 $a p.;$c cm.
03:30 kados function field_300_partial_values {
03:30 kados        if ($materialType == 'BKS') {
03:30 kados                $field_300a = '?p.;';
03:30 kados                $field_300c = '?cm.';
03:30 kados        }
03:30 kados        return
03:30 kados }
03:31 kados thd: ok, what else?
03:31 kados thd: I am getting tired, I should probably get home
03:31 thd the user must be able to add arbitrary text such as 300 $avi, 270p., bibliography p. 271-174;$c21 cm.
03:31 kados and go to bed
03:32 kados yes, that's what the ? is for
03:33 thd I mean even at the end of the field or erasing the p. and entering 2 v.
03:34 thd where multiple volumes do not have their separate pagination recorded in a single record
03:35 kados yep
03:35 kados the help section should have information for the user on what available values are
03:35 kados with examples perhaps
03:36 kados ok, I must walk home now
03:36 kados it's getting late
03:37 kados we have identified:
03:37 kados LEADER/06/ and 07
03:37 kados 008
03:37 kados 245 $h
03:38 kados and 300
03:38 thd the default for CDs in 300 should be $a1 CD;$cI forgot the height cm. determined from 007
03:40 kados all the rest of the fields are independent
03:40 thd there is some for 300 in whatever we used to call the ASMP frameworks
03:40 thd other fields are also dependent
03:41 kados which ones?
03:41 kados I think 300 is a bad example
03:41 kados for this exercise
03:41 kados because you can only derive partial values
03:41 kados I think we should not handle partial values with this exercise
03:41 kados lets restrict our study to:
03:41 thd kados: you would not think so if you had to create many original records
03:42 kados MARC21 Bibliographic Monographs Mandatory Fields where full values can be derived
03:42 kados from previous values
03:42 kados s/from previous values/from values in previous fields/
03:42 thd 300 is required except for electronic resources and other record editors already do just what I described
03:43 kados yes, I know
03:43 kados we will expand our features
03:43 kados are there no further fields where full values can be derived?
03:45 thd there is the issue of adding some standard fields and subfields used by various record types
03:45 kados yes
03:46 kados should that be done using material type?
03:46 kados select material type -> standard fields appear in the record ?
03:46 thd and also more fileds/subfields or fewer depending upon record level
03:46 kados ahh, right
03:47 kados thd: would we use the asmp frameworks as a starting point?
03:48 thd yes, those were mostly minimal level with a few good to have fields
03:48 kados if we restrict ourselves to type='a' and level='minimal', what fields/subfields should be 'standard'?
03:49 thd most of the unusual aspects were the friendly labels for the librarian instead of the standard labels
03:49 kados right
03:49 kados thd: would it take long to define standard fields/subfields for type 'a' and level 'minimal'?
03:49 kados or should I go to bed?
03:50 kados :-)
03:50 thd 001
03:50 thd 003
03:50 thd 005
03:50 thd 007 is not required for minimal but people should use it anyways
03:51 thd 008
03:51 thd 010
03:51 thd 040
03:51 kados which subfields?
03:52 kados just $a?
03:52 thd 010 $a
03:52 thd 040 $a can be prefilled for original cataloguing
03:52 kados 929
03:52 kados oops 020
03:52 thd 929?
03:53 kados I meant 020
03:53 kados <-- tired
03:53 thd 020 $a
03:54 kados 050?
03:55 kados 100 $a
03:56 kados 245 $a
03:56 kados 300 $a $c
03:56 kados $650
03:56 thd 050 #4 $a $b or 082 #4 $a $b depending on the library preference
03:58 kados did I miss any?
03:58 kados 650 $a
03:58 kados I think those are the main ones
03:58 thd call number $b should be auto generated from 100 $a and 260 $c etc.
03:58 kados cutter you mean?
03:58 thd yes
03:59 kados ok
03:59 kados I have a note
03:59 kados any fields missing?
03:59 thd you left out 260 ## $a $b $c
03:59 kados ahh
04:00 thd will the subfield disappear when saved if the value is blank or a space?
04:00 kados yes
04:01 kados the user should also be able to define their own 'templates'
04:01 kados similar to our frameworks, but more flexible
04:01 kados OK, here's what I have:
04:01 kados fields that should be 'standard' for type=='a' and level=='minimal':
04:01 kados Leader, 001, 003, 005, 007, 008, 010 $a, 020 $a, 040 $a(prefilled),
04:01 kados 050 $a $b or 082 $a $b depending on the library preference
04:01 kados call number $b should be auto generated from 100 $a and 260 $c etc.
04:01 kados 100 $a, 245 $a, 260 $a $b $c 300 $a $c 650 $a
04:02 kados subfield should disappear if the value is blank or a space
04:02 kados and with that, I'm going to head home for some well deserved rest :-)
04:02 thd then 245 $a $h $b $c
04:03 kados good night thd
04:03 thd 700 $a
04:03 thd :)
04:03 thd we could do more with default indicators
04:04 thd good night kados
06:08 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: toins_
07:44 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: _lloyd_
07:44 lloyd morning

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