Time Nick Message 12:12 kados hey foxnorth 12:17 kados foxnorth: hows the fixed field stuff coming? 12:17 foxnorth hey kados-- 12:17 foxnorth i was away yesterday but i'm looking foward to getting it finished! 12:18 kados w00t 12:18 slef karma kados? 12:18 dewey kados has karma of -2 12:18 kados :( 12:18 slef dewey++ 12:18 foxnorth kados: actually, i could probably commit what i have (which is marc21.xml and the code for setting up the fixed field editing grid), but i'm not sure if the other marc21.xml file you guys mentioned will turn up? 12:19 kados foxnorth: if it doesn't I can easily contribute one 12:19 kados foxnorth: the Koha frameworks can generate a pretty complete marc21 xml file 12:20 kados foxnorth: http://opencat.liblime.com/cgi-bin/opencataloger/getStructureFromKoha.pl (very large file) 12:20 kados foxnorth: I suspect we'll need a few marc21.xml files though 12:20 kados one for each material type 12:21 foxnorth kados: yeah, is that the best way to handle diff material types? 12:21 kados I'm not sure 12:21 kados I can tell you how it works in Koha 12:21 kados we have 'frameworks' 12:21 foxnorth kados: that would be great-- 12:21 kados and you can define tags and subfields for each framework 12:22 kados and behavior for each of those 12:22 foxnorth there would be a framework for marc21 and one for unimarc? 12:22 kados so things like authorized values, plugins, default values, authorities, etc 12:22 foxnorth ah, as well as authorized values... 12:22 kados well, there are multiple frameworks for marc21 12:22 kados and for unimarc 12:22 foxnorth i see, library-dependent? 12:22 kados http://koha.liblime.com/cgi-bin/koha/admin/biblio_framework.pl 12:23 kados yea, libraries can define new ones 12:23 kados we haven't really properly finished the marc21 support though 12:23 foxnorth thanks 12:23 kados the frameworks we have aren't fully defined 12:23 foxnorth ah i see. 12:23 kados and the material types aren't per the marc specification 12:23 foxnorth Is that why i'll need to define the plugins you mentioned (type-r-008-marc21.pl)? they're not yet set up? 12:24 kados libraries tend to use local practices to define what frameworks they want to set up 12:24 foxnorth ah interesting. 12:24 kados exactly 12:24 foxnorth ok 12:24 jaron so you could have a monograph and a serials framework for marc21 12:24 kados but ... keep in mind, if there's a better way, we don't have to stick with what we've done before 12:24 kados jaron: yep 12:24 kados jaron: and they could have different leader plugins 12:24 jaron yes 12:24 kados jaron: and 008 plugins, etc. 12:25 foxnorth on a side note, can you point me to the most current docs for setting koha up w/ zebra? and running the z3950-daemon? I need to get this set up so i can test the saveToKoha etc... :) 12:25 kados and a different set of visible fields 12:25 foxnorth i see.... 12:25 jaron I wonder if there would be a way to just do partial frameworks that share common fields 12:25 kados don't need to run the z3950-daemon anymore, that's deprecated 12:25 foxnorth yeah, in marc21 lots of diff formats use similar fixed fields 12:25 foxnorth oh ok-- didn't realize that!! 12:26 jaron instead of having to maintain a file for each framework (material type or whatever use a library makes of a framework) you'd have one master framework and then partial ones that overlay the master one. 12:26 jaron does that even make sense? 12:26 kados jaron: yes, it does 12:26 kados hard to implement though I think 12:26 foxnorth yeah, that sounds like a good idea.... 12:27 jaron kados: probably right. 12:27 jaron well, I guess the challenge right now is just getting it working 12:27 kados :-) 12:27 jaron kados: about that OID z39.50 question 12:28 jaron kados: zoom does convert the recordsyntax string to OID but only shows you the string form of it 12:28 jaron kados: I'm not sure whether zoom knows about ibermarc though 12:29 kados jaron: yea, I've got a support question in to Index Data about which OIDs it knows about 12:29 jaron but Net-Z3950-ZOOM does know about it 12:33 jaron kados: yaz user's guide lists ibermarc. but I'll be interested in indexdata's answer 12:33 kados I'll post it when I hear back 12:41 slef kados: can we move to oftc instead of freenode? 12:43 kados slef: why? 12:45 kados slef: i've never even heard of oftc 12:47 lloyd yeah what the hell is oftc :) 12:47 lloyd you'll be suggesting dal.net next :p 12:48 slef OFTC is the Open and Free Technology Community, which hosts irc.debian.org 12:49 slef It's a community-run IRC network and is a project of Software in the Public Interest. 12:49 kados slef: the reason we want to move to freenode is to be more visible, not more obscure ;-) 12:50 lloyd channel already open on freenode? 12:50 slef That's a bad reason to move to freenode. We could move to any netsplit- and searchirc-indexed network to be more visible. 12:51 kados I've had several folks ask us why we're not on freenode 12:51 kados I've never had anyone ask about oftc 12:51 lloyd well a lot of opensource projects have there homes on freenode 12:52 slef and a lot of people run SirsiDynix. I don't like the crowd being used as an argument in favour of something. Argue on the merits. 12:53 kados slef: the merit to moving to freenode is that we'll get more people involved 12:53 lloyd "Two Internet Relay Chat (IRC) networks that are used heavily by free and open source software projects, freenode and the Open and Free Technology Community (OFTC), are building bridges by swapping staff and observing each other's operations. The rapprochement brings together two organizations that sprang from a single project, and may be a precursor for more intimate ties." 12:53 kados IRC is obscure enough 12:54 slef lloyd: yes, I know that. While interesting, it's early days. 12:54 lloyd yeah only announced a couple of days ago 12:54 lloyd well.. may 12:54 lloyd lol 12:54 lloyd slef - whats your beef with freenode? 12:54 slef kados: how? freenode has too many flamers, fanboys and eccentricities like half-bans 12:55 kados hasn't been my experience 12:55 slef lloyd: ultimately, freenode's host organisation, PDPC, is unaccountable and out of community control. As a result, there are strange decisions, like q-bans and the begging bots and the only option users have is to either leave or talk to the brick wall of PDPC's lawyers. 12:56 slef kados: did you see the begging bots? 12:56 kados slef: nope 12:57 slef I can see an argument for moving to a bigger network that is on the search engines, but freenode is still broken. 13:02 kados slef: being on the search engines wasn't something I had considered 13:02 kados dbs: just in time 13:02 kados dbs: we're battling it out over freenode 13:03 slef If we'd like to go mainstream, maybe some sort of multi-format Instant 13:03 slef Messaging conference would be good. I'm not sure what's out there. I know we have jabber conferencing and can link to other network sometimes, but I don't think our setup can link the conferences to the other networks. 13:03 slef kados: you mentioned being more visible. 13:04 dbs slef: this is just my impression over the past few years, but it always seemed weird that koha was off on its own irc server 13:05 dbs that, along with some of the web site organization (I think the wiki was password-protected even for read access for a while a couple of years back?) 13:05 dbs made it seem like the koha project wasn't really all that open 13:06 dbs but those were just my impressions; take them for what they're worth 13:06 slef dbs: the linux kernel is also off on a small net, but fine, let's move 13:06 slef to a network, but please a safer network. 13:07 kados dbs: what about the web site organiation do you find difficult? 13:07 kados the wiki was password protected because we got hit hard with spam 13:07 slef the wiki password was a crude measure by the then-hosts (NWU?) to block spam 13:07 dbs kados: not so much now; things seem to have improved over the last year 13:08 kados smap 13:08 kados snap even 13:09 slef kados: people searching freenode won't find all channels, same as people searching berlios won't find all downloads. 13:10 rch z 13:10 kados hey rch 13:10 dbs slef: other than Freenode, I know EFnet also gets used (by PHP core devs for example). what other network were you thinking of? 13:10 slef wow, there's a #koha on ircnet already... no topic, so I suspect it's albanian 13:10 kados no topic == albanian? ;-) 13:11 slef dbs: I suggest oftc.net because all koha developers can get membership of its controlling company. 13:11 slef kados: no, but albanian is more common on ircnet than free software or Maori 13:11 kados heh 13:12 dbs well, at least oftc is already configured in kopete :) 13:15 slef I can't get onto ircnet just now, for some reason. 13:15 dbs I guess the presence of the #code4lib on freenode isn't a compelling enough reason to be close 13:20 slef I wrote safer, not secure. Not sure any IRC is that secure. 13:20 owen Is Freenode's user registration system an unwanted barrier to participation in #koha? 13:20 owen then what do you mean by "safer" ? 13:20 slef More sustainable, controllable, accountable. 13:21 slef Does freenode still require users to register or they get a strange error if they try to privately message anyone? 13:21 rch yep 13:22 slef I guess that might be a barrier. But in general, registration isn't required? 13:22 lloyd slef - linknet :) 13:22 lloyd secure irc 13:22 lloyd rubbish network though 13:23 slef ircnet#koha is a guy in finland 13:23 jaron at least with freenode registration I have a better idea of identity 13:23 slef jaron: only if you nickserv info everyone. 13:25 slef ircnet#koha op is Matti Lassila - also seen in katipo gallery 13:25 slef http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/album103/koha_FREE_LIBRARY_SYSTEM 13:26 slef so I guess ircnet#koha is actually our koha 13:27 slef http://www.technorati.com/people/technorati/sadhu/ 13:31 slef owen: kados added it to the dev meeting agenda. I asked whether he'd s/freenode/oftc 13:33 owen And one of the questions (besides safety) is whether people will think to look for Koha on a particular network? 13:34 slef I don't see why that's a big question. Anyone searching only one network for Koha is as stupid as anyone who searches only one download site (ibiblio, say) for Koha. 13:35 lloyd why not use one of those channel linking bots? it sits on a bunch of networks and relays chat.. its quite neat 13:35 slef lloyd: is that an offer to run it? ;-) 13:35 owen I agree, slef, at least from my own experience. I'm more likely to search the web for information about a channel than to search a network 13:36 lloyd yah i'll run if needed 13:36 slef I can see arguments for either moving koha to an indexed network, or getting this server indexed. 13:36 owen I still don't know what you mean when you say "more sustainable, controllable, accountable" ... But then I don't know much about administering an IRC channel 13:37 slef owen: more or less: what happens if it all goes wrong for a koha user? 13:37 owen How so? 13:37 slef owen: hope for the best, prepare for the worst, as they say 13:37 slef owen: say one of our users gets an AKILL (connections automatically rejected and closed down) from our chosen network. 13:37 slef say it's not their AKILL - what do we do? 13:38 slef s/AKILL/fault/ 13:39 slef with freenode, we can try to take it up with their network operators, but I know some have got their own akills as a result of disputing akills (I think I've only been killed for arguing, not akilled) 13:39 slef then we get a notice to talk to PDPC's lawyers and we can't do anything else. 13:39 lloyd I reckon channel linking bot/relay bot would be great.. freenode being master as well as channels on efnet and oftc 13:39 owen slef, is this something that has come up in this channel before? 13:39 slef lloyd: channel linking bots were banned from freenode early on - are 13:39 slef they allowed now? 13:40 slef owen: don't know. 13:40 lloyd slef - banned? that seems quite anal. 13:42 slef owen: why? 13:43 owen slef, I'm just trying to gauge the likelihood of a possible negative scenario before using that scenario to make a decision. 13:44 kados slef: the benefits on being on the most popular network outweigh the possible negative aspects, especially since I've been using freenode for years with no problems 13:44 lloyd anyone mind if i mess around with a relay bot? here to freenode 13:45 kados and in fact, this is the first time I've heard anyone complain about freenode 13:45 kados lloyd: feel free 13:45 owen kados, what do you think about the nick registration? 13:45 kados well, you don't have to register to chat, just to private message 13:46 slef kados: ircnet is more popular than freenode; and I've seen too 13:46 slef complaints about freenode to feel theyare nice. 13:46 kados but I do agree that's a bit annoying 13:46 owen Ah, I didn't realize it was just for private messaging. 13:49 slef owen: I don't know how likely it is, but I've seen it happen enough to be concerned that the problems don't seem to have been fixed. 13:50 kados slef: how about this: we use freenode, and if we have problems, we evaluate what to do 13:50 slef kados-- 13:51 slef both lloyd's relay idea and more than a 3-minute meeting discussion seem better ideas 13:52 owen It's going to be hard enough to cover all that ground 13:52 slef so do I, so why dig your heels in? 13:52 kados slef: you're the one digging :-) 13:52 slef like heck 13:53 kados lets take a poll 13:53 slef how about keep the status quo then? If visibility is a problem, ask citylink to apply to the search engines 13:53 slef for listing 13:54 kados I think you're missing the point 13:54 kados that was raised by some 13:55 slef Maybe, so why not explain it? 13:55 kados it's not that irc.katipo.co.nz isn't in search engines that's the problem 13:55 kados it's that a lot of IRC users only use freenode 13:55 kados and if we want to attract more developers and make it easy for them to get in tough 13:55 kados touch even 13:56 slef If you define the problem as "koha is not on freenode" then that's begging the question. 13:56 kados we should have a presense on the most popular network 13:56 kados yep, that's the problem 13:56 kados koha's not on freenode 13:56 slef so try lloyd's relay first. 13:56 kados sure 13:58 slef Personally, "koha's not on freenode" seems a feature not a bug. Makes it easier to be here. 13:59 owen We shouldn't be looking for "easier" 13:59 slef Similar to "koha lists are not on google groups" is a feature. 13:59 kados slef: maybe we have different assumptions about where we want this project to go? 13:59 owen We should be looking for "more people talking about koha" 14:00 slef kados: I want sustainability. How about you? 14:00 kados yep, sustainability requires more users 14:00 kados to get more users we need better visibility 14:00 slef Requires us to keep them, too. 14:00 kados I gotta run 14:00 kados bbl 14:00 slef If #koha is on freenode, then PDPC can close us down any day. 14:01 owen slef, do you know of projects who have had their channel shut down? 14:02 slef Yes. Do I have the details at my fingertips? No. 14:02 owen If you're suggesting that it's a possibility we need to examine the circumstances under which it may occur. 14:03 owen Wouldn't the same be true if #koha were on OFTC ? 14:04 slef We'd have at least three appeal chances: NOC (informal), OFTC constitution (formal) and SPI (parent body). 14:05 toins kados: why not on irc.perl.org ? 14:05 toins (hi all) 14:05 slef toins: which network is that? 14:05 toins slef: don't know 14:06 owen http://www.irc.perl.org/ ? 14:06 toins yep 14:06 slef MAGnet 14:06 toins magnet yes 14:07 toins big perl project are there 14:07 toins but perhaps less visibility than freenode... 14:07 slef not on either search index, but might be an interesting audience 14:08 owen Yeah, that doesn't address the issue of capitalizing on freenode's popularity. 14:08 slef Interestingly, freenode isn't completely listed on irc.netsplit.de - it's marked as a Maverick 14:08 slef owen: but if popularity was the main drive, ircnet is bigger and there's a near-empty #koha there already. 14:12 slef toins: main argument against is that the koha project gets no control of #koha there, but then I'm not sure we have any control of this #koha (is any regular an oper here?) 14:13 slef actually, they assign some other channels to projects, so I guess we might 14:15 koha <_lloyd_@fn> hola 14:15 slef (shhh, everyone be quiet and make him wonder whether it's broken) 14:17 lloyd mmm - could do with making a little prettier 14:26 [K] <_lloyd_@FreeNode> ping 14:26 lloyd pong 14:27 lloyd mmmm... whatcha think? 14:27 slef seems to work... time will tell, I guess 14:27 lloyd its only configured for the two networks atm 14:28 lloyd hang on, let me daemonize it 14:29 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: rch n=rychi@gandalf.metavore.com 14:30 [K] <rch@FreeNode> sushi? 14:30 lloyd eew 14:31 rch hmm. interesting 14:31 lloyd I can keep it on this server for a while, should you wish to keep it i'll move it somewhere else 14:32 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: toins n=toins@paulpoulain.pck.nerim.net 14:32 slef lloyd: I didn't find a clear ban on relay bots by freenode, FWIW, but I didn't look that much. 14:32 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: ow1n n=ow1n@66.213.78.34 14:32 lloyd I had a look too.. couldnt find anything 14:33 [K] * ow1n@FreeNode taps the microphone 14:33 slef I guess the akill will be a pretty clear signal if there is a ban ;-) 14:33 owen Very confusing. Not a long-term solution I think. 14:33 rch i'd have to say I'd prefer to have one #koha on a public server network. 14:34 rch but this would be a nice transition 14:34 lloyd owen - it's confusing because you're in two channels... you'd normally only be in 1 14:34 lloyd well why not have 1 main public network, and have the bot sitting on efnet/oftc incase anybody comes looking for us 14:34 owen confusing because I see <[K]> speaking for anyone on Freenode, rather than those users speaking for themselves. 14:34 slef http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/01/29/buy_a_piece_of_net/ is a critique of their past (note: Rob Levin died a while ago) 14:35 [K] <rch@FreeNode> can you /who the relay bot? 14:36 lloyd mmhmm 14:36 [K] <rch@FreeNode> to see who's on koha@Katipo? 14:36 lloyd you can also PM between networks too 14:36 lloyd no you cant do that 14:37 [K] *** part FreeNode!#koha: ow1n n=ow1n@66.213.78.34 14:37 slef http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-475821.html is a gentoo-related thread 14:37 [K] *** part FreeNode!#koha: rch n=rychi@gandalf.metavore.com 14:39 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: jaron n=jronallo@in-220-116.dhcp-149-166.iupui.edu 14:40 [K] <jaron@FreeNode> testing 1, 2, 3 14:40 jaron testing 4, 5, 6 14:41 [K] *** part FreeNode!#koha: jaron n=jronallo@in-220-116.dhcp-149-166.iupui.edu 14:46 lloyd that guy does sound like an ass 14:49 slef he was, IMO, but I think the policies and systems he set up are still in place. 14:59 lloyd guys... Its hard work running this relay bot.. I've had to employ myself to maintain it 14:59 lloyd so... donations are welcome 14:59 jaron lloyd++ 14:59 lloyd :) 15:00 jaron lloyd: now you just need to get the relay bot to ask for money every few minutes 15:01 jaron lloyd: "a suggested donation of $.10 per message" 15:01 lloyd oooh yah... I could put another bot online to count the amount of messages 15:04 jaron lloyd: soon you'll be able to quit your day job 15:05 lloyd i've already handed my notice in! 15:11 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: dbs n=dan@pdpc/supporter/active/denials 15:11 [K] <dbs@FreeNode> relay bot... interesting 15:14 dbs Are you thinking of having [K] announce something like "Hey, there's 40 of us over on irc.katipo.co.nz#koha!" when a freenode person joins the channel? 15:16 lloyd nah my suggestion was when we move to freenode to have the bot in all other channels here/oftc/efnet.. with a topic saying the main channel is over on freenode but you can still talk to us here 15:18 dbs lloyd: cool -- here's my $0.10 (CDN) 15:19 lloyd excuse me.. its $0.30 now.. Two relays from here and 1 relay from freenode 15:19 dewey lloyd: The server at bofh.engr.wisc.edu (port 666) appears to be down. 15:19 lloyd dewey? 15:19 dewey yes, lloyd? 15:22 lloyd haha : http://www.infonet.ee/~sbernard/asr/rec-chem.html 15:22 slef asr = alt.sysadmin.recovery? 15:23 lloyd no idea, just found that 15:24 jaron dewey: is the plate voltage too low on the demodulator tube? 15:24 slef alt.sysadmin.recovery FAQ v0.49 15:24 slef I'm very old. My legs are grey and my eyes are bent. 15:26 lloyd i've got to say, those chocolate covered coffee beans sound nice! 15:32 lloyd Hey kados - got a moment to chat? 15:32 kados lloyd: do now 15:33 kados what's up? 15:33 lloyd ILL feature of Koha.. does it exist yet? 15:34 kados depends on what you define as ILL 15:34 kados there are ILL features 15:34 kados we have code to support the ISO ILL standard 15:35 kados and some specs for NCIP (no code yet though) 15:35 lloyd ability to send off articles (photocopys) or books to librarys, not just those that are sub branches 15:35 kados well you can do it with institutional borrowers 15:35 kados how do you get the request initiated is the question 15:36 kados managing the request through the phases of fullfillment isn't included yet 15:36 kados there are two ways to do it: ISO standard and NCIP 15:36 kados we have some code to support the ISO standard, but it's never been integrated 15:36 lloyd interesting 15:36 kados if you don't need the request to be managed (ie, the current koha libraries just use paper) 15:37 kados so it depends on what you define as ILL ;-) 15:37 lloyd yeah it needs to be managed to because they are added to the stats for loaning 15:37 kados well it would be added to the stats still 15:37 kados as a checkout 15:37 kados because you'd be issuing it to a institution 15:38 kados just the request itself isn't managed 15:38 kados so the borrowing institution needs to send an email, or a fax, or the library needs a web form or something to initiate the request 15:38 lloyd yeah i've got ya 15:38 kados cool 15:38 lloyd so you've got the code (apart from the request) to do ILL? 15:39 kados the code I have is from a system Yale developed about 4-5 years ago 15:39 kados it usese the ISO ILL standard 15:39 kados you need to find out what the resource sharing network you want to do ILL with uses 15:40 kados to pick which ILL standard to go wtih (ILL vs NCIP at this point) 15:40 kados make sense? 15:40 lloyd jup 15:40 lloyd reason I ask is ILL will be a requirement, the 28 librarys or so have sent me some document on how'd they'd like it to work 15:41 kados ahh, fantastic 15:41 kados will it be just between the 28 libraries? 15:41 lloyd there document lists things like.. request date, date collected, date sent, date renewed, date due back 15:41 kados or outside the network too? 15:41 lloyd outside too 15:41 kados I'd suggest NCIP 15:41 kados it's much newer 15:42 kados and more complete 15:42 lloyd hold on, i'll send you the document over 15:42 lloyd sent 15:43 kados ahh 15:43 kados it's Document Delivery + ILL 15:43 kados very cool lloyd 15:44 lloyd haha... yeah the colour scheme is nothing to do with me :p 15:45 slef lloyd: that reminds me. Do you have corporate standards for library management systems? I couldn't see anything, but policies are not as well-indexed as drugs. 15:45 lloyd no... well sorta 15:46 lloyd they're agreed upon per readon 15:46 lloyd check out www.eclaksa.eoe.nhs.uk 15:46 slef interesting... thanks 15:47 lloyd some hospitals here run access :) 15:47 lloyd some are still using paper 18:25 kados foxnorth: how's it going? 18:25 foxnorth hey kados-- did you get my latest email? does it make sense to you? 18:25 kados oops, missed it 18:25 kados looking now 18:26 kados no_popups++ 18:26 foxnorth great-- just want to make sure we're on the same page now that i understand koha's side of things 18:26 foxnorth right 18:26 kados I'm thinking more like a livesearch or something 18:26 kados labs.liblime.com has an example 18:26 foxnorth ok lemme check that out 18:26 kados the liblime home page search too 18:26 kados (takes a sec to load though) 18:27 kados re: #2 18:27 foxnorth so basically instead of a dropdown menu, do an autocomplete/livesearch to fill in permissible values for fixed fields? sounds good to me 18:27 kados yea 18:27 foxnorth gotcha. 18:27 kados ok, #2 18:28 kados this gets down to the marc standard 18:28 foxnorth right...the difficult part! 18:28 kados the problem is, based on the material type 18:28 kados the field values change 18:28 kados so there isn't just one set of 008 values 18:28 kados make sense? 18:28 foxnorth right both play a role and make things tricky... 18:28 kados yea 18:28 kados I think we need to take the approach EG took 18:29 foxnorth right-- not sure if this xml based approach is a good way 18:29 kados yea 18:29 kados maybe better to just detect the material type from the leader 18:29 kados and populate fixed fields from there 18:29 foxnorth yeah that's what i would say. 18:29 kados using javascript 18:30 foxnorth hhm. 18:30 kados or whatever you think is best 18:30 kados honestly, you're probably the best to decide on this 18:31 kados as far as _how_ to implement it I mean 18:33 kados foxnorth: and you can just commit to the project I think 18:33 kados foxnorth: at this point it's just you, toins and I working on it 18:33 foxnorth right ok 18:34 kados easier to just run svn update than muddle around with patches and moving files, etc :-) 18:34 kados version_control++ 18:34 foxnorth yeah i agree-- but i wasn't sure this is in a state decent enough to commit! :) 18:34 foxnorth yet... 18:35 kados I wouldn't worry about that, esp since we're pre-release 18:35 foxnorth ok, good to know... 18:36 kados eventually we can branch when working on ne features and then merge when they are stable 18:37 foxnorth lemme just run and look at the evergreen javascript again for a sec... 18:48 kados hi johnb 18:51 foxnorth kados: when you said before you thought it would be good to use the EG approach for opencataloger fixed field editing, which part of that approach are you thinking of? 18:51 foxnorth Is it the use, for e.g., of fixed_fields.js file (http://open-ils.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/ILS/Open-ILS/src/javascript/backend/catalog/fixed_fields.js?rev=1.1.2.2&view=markup) you're thinking of? 18:51 kados mainly the display of them 18:51 kados a drop-down value list goes beyond what EG has 18:51 kados afaik 18:52 foxnorth right, that's what i thought. 18:52 foxnorth OK, good. 18:52 kados but a drop-down would be really cool 18:52 foxnorth definately need dropdown/ autocomplete 18:52 kados yea 18:52 foxnorth ok, so let me commit my current fixed field version to play with 18:53 foxnorth and basically you think the xml based descriptive approach for fixed field definitions will work out ok? going along with the current use of unimarc.xml? 18:56 kados yea 18:56 foxnorth committed... 18:56 kados foxnorth++ 18:58 foxnorth kados: ok, so i think next steps are to generalize my fixed field editor grid functions and modify the marc structure xml files to define what's a fixed field, rather than pick individual elements from the structural file. 18:58 kados I wonder ... 18:58 foxnorth ? 18:59 kados so how does this work with the getstructurefrom koha 18:59 foxnorth right, that's where i would need to modify that script to return permissible fixed field values. 18:59 foxnorth possibly using already existing plugins?? 18:59 kados wouldn't need to 18:59 kados so I updated 19:00 kados but don't see the fixed field parts 19:00 kados ahh, now I do 19:00 kados not for a new record though 19:00 kados just for an existing one 19:00 foxnorth right, you would need to modify opencataloger.xml: structure=marc21... 19:00 foxnorth brb 19:01 kados format you mean? 19:03 kados foxnorth: I now have an unhappy opencat :-) 19:03 kados foxnorth: display's kinda mangled for records and the fixed fields aren't displaying properly 19:08 kados huh 19:08 kados for some results it works fine 19:08 kados foxnorth: those drop downs own! 19:09 kados foxnorth: don't seem to dynamically update the field in the record though 19:09 kados hmmm 19:11 foxnorth ok i'm back-- 19:12 foxnorth um, right, in conf like this: 19:12 foxnorth <structure value="/cgi-bin/opencataloger/getStructureMarc21.pl" 19:12 foxnorth format="marc21" 19:12 foxnorth koha="true" 19:12 foxnorth encoding="UTF-8" 19:12 foxnorth charsubfield="‡" 19:12 foxnorth /> 19:12 kados yep, except I have koha="false" 19:12 foxnorth ah right, better leave that false for right now 19:12 foxnorth that's right, it's not dynamically updating field in record right now, only on saving 19:13 foxnorth for some results it's mangled? 19:13 foxnorth hhm, havne't had that 19:13 foxnorth can you tell me which record you searched for on opencat.liblime adn i can check it out? 19:45 tnb owen: you around? 19:45 owen yes 19:46 tnb do you have time to hop on gmail chat? 19:46 owen Sure 19:46 tnb i wanted to pick your brain about something 20:00 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: toins_ n=toins@paulpoulain.pck.nerim.net 20:37 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: toins_ n=toins@paulpoulain.pck.nerim.net 23:16 kados thd: hi 23:16 dewey niihau, kados 23:16 thd hello kados 23:28 thd I have just separated over 500 lines of function code from 20,000 lines of program code and now I will add the logic which goes with them. 23:28 kados thd++ 23:29 thd kados: I assume that you do not want to hunt through 20.000 lines of unfamiliar PHP code yourself :) 23:29 kados hehe 23:29 kados thd++ 23:45 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: denials n=dan@pdpc/supporter/active/denials 23:47 kados hi denials 23:48 kados thd: how's the logic coming? 23:49 thd I have saved a nice short file now I just need to attach it to my email 23:49 kados w00t 23:52 [K] <denials@FreeNode> hola kados 23:57 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: kados n=jmf@merry.metavore.com 23:57 [K] <kados@FreeNode> interesting 23:58 [K] *** part FreeNode!#koha: kados n=jmf@merry.metavore.com 23:58 kados guess that works well enough 23:58 kados lloyd++ 00:02 thd s/fore/for/ 00:04 thd kados: how fast do you write X00 lines of code? 00:05 kados thd: slowly 00:06 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: toins_ n=toins@paulpoulain.pck.nerim.net 00:11 thd kados: check your mail. The first message is missing the attachment 00:12 kados looking now 00:14 kados thd: lets go through this function by function 00:14 kados I'll keep notes 00:14 kados :-) 00:14 kados thd: f000MARC 00:14 kados obviously for the leader 00:14 kados but what is it trying to do? 00:14 thd kados: why not start with the program logic below? 00:15 kados ok 00:15 thd past all the functions 00:16 kados ok, so we detect recFormat, recType, mediaType 00:16 thd kados: no 00:17 thd kados: we only no these values in advance: $targetURL, $targetAuth, $targetSyntax, $targetEncoding, $targetSemantics, $targetName 00:18 thd kados: just general values about the target nothing specific about the record yet 00:18 kados right 00:18 kados I get that 00:18 kados so this code will tell you what you have 00:19 kados based on the record content 00:19 thd kados: we know that it is not SUTRS and therefore must be some form of MARC since I have no provision for other types so far 00:21 kados preg_match is missing 00:21 thd kados: are you trying to execute this code? :) 00:21 kados no 00:21 kados just noticed that 00:22 thd noticed it where? 00:22 kados preg_match is called quite a lot 00:22 kados but there's no function preg_match 00:22 thd kados: that is a built in function in PHP 00:22 kados ahh 00:22 thd it is a perl regular expression match 00:23 kados gotcha 00:24 kados so this will tell us the format, record type and media type 00:24 thd kados: $rec = yaz_record($id[$i],$p,"string"); obtains a record formatted with line breaks, not a raw record 00:24 kados of an existing record 00:24 kados thd: right, gathered that 00:24 thd and more 00:24 kados more? 00:25 kados what else? 00:25 thd kados: well maybe I did not supply more 00:26 thd kados: you do not need the endless encoding functions and logic because you already have everything in UTF-8 for the editor 00:26 kados thd: what I'd like to see, is a walk through of the order of operations to determine valid values for a MARC record 00:26 thd so back to the logic 00:26 kados ie, step 1: pick LEADER/06 and LEADER/07 00:27 kados step 2: pick 008 00:27 kados then, that results in a template with all the appropriate fields defined 00:28 kados and based on the initial choices, the template is different 00:28 kados thd: is that how you envision it ? 00:28 thd kados: there is some junk in the functions to find the leader originally because PHP/YAZ reports parser errors as part of the formatted record before the leader 00:28 thd kados: yes 00:30 thd except that if you have UNIMARC then you have 100 instead of 008 00:30 kados lets forget about unimarc for a second 00:30 thd :( 00:30 kados we'll come back to it 00:31 thd you have functions for IBERMARC, etc. as well 00:31 kados MARC21 Bibliographic Monographs is what I'd like to focus on for a sec 00:32 thd OK :) 00:32 kados ok, so we have to first pick the marc flavor, MARC21 00:32 kados that does nothing directly to the record, but pick a template 00:33 kados then we pick bibliographic, and that also does nothing to the record but pick a template, there's no marker in the record in marc21 specifying bibliographic as opposed to authority or holdings, right? 00:35 thd kados: more than flavour 00:36 kados ? 00:38 thd kados: you need $targetSyntax and $targetSemantics: tow values which are not always the same but maybe only $targetSemantics is used in this part of the code 00:38 thd s/tow/two/ 00:39 thd read marcFlavour = $targetSemantics if that is enough here 00:39 kados thd: sure 00:39 kados thd: I've shifted a bit, not talking directly about your code 00:40 kados thd: I'm just trying to identify the steps to arriving at a template for a MARC record 00:40 kados thd: first is pick a standard: MARC21, then the type of MARC21 record it is, Bibliographic (as opposed to Authority, Holdings, etc.) 00:41 kados but those choices aren't reflected in the data of the record 00:41 kados unlike some choices, like encoding, which is in LEADER//09 00:41 kados am I correct? 00:41 thd kados: right, just as long as you remember that some libraries will need separate values for the syntax and semantics variables even if they are not your customers yet 00:42 kados what's the difference between syntax and semantics in MARC? 00:43 thd kados: yes exactly because the meaning of the leader changes by the value of $recFormat 00:44 thd kados: syntax is the structure of the record (not a good explanation). semantics is what the fields mean 00:45 kados syntax = MARC21, semantics = Bibliographic ? 00:46 kados problem is, semantics are not only set at that level, but also further defined by at least material type and maybe fixed fields int he 008 IIRC 00:46 kados that's what i'm really after here anyway, is the semantics 00:46 thd kados: no, syntax = 'MARC21' and semantics = 'MARC21' most of the time 00:47 thd kados: yes, I think for this part of the code you do not have to worry about syntax 00:49 thd kados: $recFormat = 'bibliographic' etc. not $targetSemantics as I defined the variables in this code 00:50 thd kados: I tried to be very careful about nomenclature because the code would otherwise be unreadable 00:50 kados right 00:50 kados ok 00:51 kados so next we choose material type and bibliographic level 00:51 thd kados: so the various MARC standards call Bibligraphic the Bibliographic Format and Authorities the Authorities Format 00:51 kados since we are restricting ourselves to Monographic records (single part) 00:52 thd kados: yes 00:52 kados that means that LEADER07 is now 'a' and LEADER/06 can be one of several values 00:52 kados what changes in the semantics of the record as we shift from type to type in the LEADER/06? 00:53 thd ? 00:53 kados maybe the wrong question 00:53 thd do you mean what variable changes? 00:53 kados no 00:54 kados if we have type 'a', we have one template, if we have type 'l' we have another, right? 00:54 kados so what differences are there in the record based on those choices? 00:54 thd do you mean how do I know what MARC 21 008 value to assign? 00:54 kados yes, but not just 008 00:54 kados what other fields are affected by that choice? 00:55 thd 007 but I did not get quite that far 00:55 kados hehe 00:57 thd do you see the URL 00:58 kados yes 00:58 thd the roadmap does have a couple of mistakes I never bothered to fix but probably need to by this weekend 00:58 kados I love the header :-) 00:59 thd do you mean the image? 00:59 kados no, the text at the very top :-) 01:00 kados so you group bibliographic and holdings together? 01:00 thd the navigation links are part of my special python scripts for Zope 01:00 kados ok, so ... 01:00 thd do you mean in the roadmap or the code? 01:00 kados bibliographic and holdings are together? 01:01 thd kados: well they share a very large set of common semantics unlike other record formats 01:01 kados right, but are still different in important ways, no? 01:02 kados this roadmap is for detection 01:02 kados of various characteristics of a record 01:02 kados what we need is the exact opposite 01:03 thd kados: yes but not important enough to make a great difference for how my code reported field labels etc. at the level of detail which it returned values 01:03 thd :) 01:03 kados we need to be able to 'browse' if you will through the series of questions to arrive at a MARC template 01:04 kados with the end result being a template/framework that defines authorized values where available in the standard employed 01:04 kados thd: is that what you envision? 01:05 thd yes 01:05 kados ok, so do we have the steps defined correctly so far? 01:06 kados we have selected LEADER/07 01:06 kados now, we select LEADER/06 01:06 kados what next? 01:07 kados (say we pick 'a' for LEADER/06) 01:08 kados now we go to the 008, right? 01:08 thd yes, $mediaType at the most primitive level 01:09 kados and the valid values for 008 and the meaning of those values changes depending on the choice for LEADER/06, right? 01:10 thd yes, if only monographs are considered 01:11 kados ok, so we need some code that explains how the options change depending on LEADER/06 01:11 kados now 01:11 thd explains? 01:12 kados defines 01:12 kados if we fill out 008, does that change the valid values or meaning of those values for any other fields? 01:13 thd 008 can change 007 01:13 kados interesting 01:13 kados example? 01:13 dewey i heard example was 750 #0$aSummer resorts$0(DLC)sh85130430$wna 01:13 thd maybe 01:15 thd yes 01:17 kados thd: you have found an example? 01:18 thd if you have cartographic material 008 maps, then 008 /25 may be d for globe which will have a different meaning for 007 from other values of 008 /25 01:19 kados I think that is the only case though 01:19 kados http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/Bib0057.htm 01:19 kados For the 007 fields, the values for each data element are not listed, except for 007/00 (Category of material). In all cases, all values are valid for BK, CF, MP, MU, SE, VM and MX. Thus while the 007 defined for globe still pertains only to globe material, it may be used in a BK, MU, etc. record. 01:21 kados I assume this is applies in the case of a mixed materials record? 01:21 kados thd: it's a difference of omission 01:22 kados thd: I don't see any differences in the meaning of the values, other than for globe, the last few do'nt apply 01:22 kados thd: am I right? 01:22 thd what about remote sensing image? 01:22 kados hmmm 01:23 thd I assume that starts as cartographic material 01:23 kados I think the 007 is independent 01:23 kados it says clearly: In all cases, all values are valid for BK, CF, MP, MU, SE, VM and MX. Thus while the 007 defined for globe still pertains only to globe material, it may be used in a BK, MU, etc. record. 01:24 kados so we can put a 007 for globes on a BK record 01:24 kados I need to adjust our search indexes based on this new info :-) 01:25 kados Field 007 is repeatable to allow for coding different physical formats covered by the same cataloging record. For example, a record which describes a videocassette available in Beta and VHS formats will have two separate 007 fields. 01:26 thd nevermind 007/00 defines the semantics for 007 01:26 kados yep 01:26 kados ok, so any other fields we need to consider, or does the buck stop with 008? 01:26 thd I have not looked at 007 for a few months :) 01:27 kados me either :-) 01:27 kados I like 007 though 01:27 kados it's one of my favorites 01:27 thd 245 $h 01:27 kados because it's consistant 01:28 kados $h is not an authorized value according to the specification though 01:28 kados it's human editable, right? 01:29 kados yep 01:29 kados ‡h [art original] ‡h [microscope slides] 01:29 kados ‡h [art reproduction] ‡h [model] 01:29 kados ‡h [chart] ‡h [motion picture] 01:29 kados ‡h [diorama] ‡h [picture] 01:29 kados ‡h [electronic resource] ‡h [realia] 01:29 kados ‡h [filmstrip] ‡h [slide] 01:29 kados ‡h [flash card] ‡h [sound recording] 01:29 kados ‡h [game] ‡h [technical drawing] 01:29 kados ‡h [graphic] * ‡h [toy] 01:29 kados ‡h [kit] ‡h [transparency] 01:29 kados ‡h [microform] ‡h [videorecording] 01:29 kados wow, there's a Library of Congress Rule Interpretations 01:29 thd kados: yes but my investigations have shown that 245 $h is one of the few places which record information accurately in some national libraries and it is an authorised value just not a coded one 01:30 kados hmmm 01:30 kados http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/LCRI0000.htm 01:31 kados http://www.itsmarc.com/crs/LCRI0057.htm 01:31 kados General Material Designation 01:31 thd however, authorised values very from library to library and no value should be used for books 01:31 kados ok, but we will stick to the standard here 01:32 kados OCLC seems to have more defined than itsmarc 01:32 kados I assume OCLC is up to date 01:32 kados so we'll use their definition list 01:32 thd yes 01:32 kados any other fields to consider? 01:32 thd OCLC takes 245 $h seriously 01:33 kados can we map the values in 245 $h to 008? 01:33 kados for instance, what is [art original] ? 01:33 kados in 008? 01:34 thd yes and to the leader as well because of the libraries which have false information in the leader 01:34 kados ? 01:35 kados what value in 008 results in [art original] ? 01:35 thd national libraries defining videorecordings as books in the leader for example 01:35 thd art original is visual material in 008 01:36 kados how is that different than [art reproduction] ? 01:36 kados in the 008? 01:36 kados or do we say: 01:36 kados if (visual material) { 01:36 kados valid values for 245 $h are: [art reproduction] or [art original] 01:36 kados ? 01:37 thd exactly 01:37 kados ok, lets map these quickly 01:38 thd maybe the logic should run in two directions though because of the problem for bad values in the records 01:38 kados we can add that later 01:38 kados right now, we're just starting from scratch with a new record 01:39 thd so then it better to try to direct sequential editing from the beginning of the record to some degree 01:40 kados so to arrive at the proper values for 245$h 01:40 kados we check the material type in LEADER/06 01:40 kados then positions 18-34 in 008 01:40 kados right? 01:41 thd hmmm yes 01:41 kados ok, lets run some examples 01:41 kados say we have material type 'a' 01:42 thd I was just thinking about electronic resources 01:42 kados for material type 'a', what values in the 008 will determine the possible values fo 245 $h? 01:44 thd 008 /23 is one 01:45 kados 23 is Form of item 01:45 kados so if it is 's' then it's [electronic resource] 01:47 thd kados: actually anything can be an electronic resource in 245 $h 01:47 kados ? 01:47 kados what order should we check the 008 fields? 01:47 kados 245 $h isn't repeatable 01:47 kados so it can only be one format 01:48 kados what I mean is 01:48 kados it can only be one GMD 01:48 kados General Material Designation 01:48 thd true 01:49 thd first we have determine what type of material 008 designates 01:49 thd then we check the appropriate position in 008 for that type of material 01:50 kados yes, so first we check the leader 01:50 thd yes 01:50 kados so lets start with type 'a' 01:50 kados now we check 008/23 01:50 thd as long as we only have a monograph 01:52 kados we do 01:52 kados :-) 01:52 kados right now we have a MARC21 Bibliographic Monograph BK (LEADER/06 == 'a') 01:52 kados if ($materialType = 'BKS') { 01:52 kados if ($ff_008.substr(23,1) == 's') { 01:52 kados $gmd = '[electronic resource]'; 01:52 kados } 01:53 kados so what other values for 008/23 can we map to 245$h? 01:54 kados 008/23 == 'a' means [microform] 01:55 thd what is the URL for the OCLC list for 245 $h? 01:55 kados http://www.oclc.org/bibformats/en/onlinecataloging/default.shtm 01:55 kados GMDs and Library of Congress Rule Interpretations 01:58 kados 'b' is microfiche 01:59 kados thos are the only three from 008/23 for LEADER/06 == 'a' 02:02 kados I have concluded that for LEADER/06 == 'a', the only detection we can do is if 008/23 is 's', 'a', or 'b' 02:02 kados if it's not one of those three, I think we have to display all GMDs as an option 02:04 thd yes 02:08 thd the OCLC list looks a little small compared to the one I have in the 1978 version of AACR2 02:12 thd kados: I think the OCLC list of GMDs is a subset for applying special rules 02:13 thd kados: where is your subscription to Cataloger's Desktop? 02:15 kados hehe 02:15 kados don't have one 02:20 kados thd: 02:20 kados can we eliminate any of the 245$h options based on soley the LEADER/06? 02:21 kados say, for example that LEADER/06 is 'a', which 245$h options remain out of the following: 02:21 kados [art original]|[microscope slides]|[art reproduction]|[model]|[chart]|[motion picture]|[diorama]|[picture]|[electronic resource]|[realia]|[filmstrip]|[slide]|[flash card]|[sound recording]|[game]|[technical drawing]|[graphic]|[toy]|[kit]|[transparency]|[microform]|[videorecording] 02:22 thd there should be more from which to start 02:23 kados really? 02:23 kados that's what OCLC uses 02:23 kados we can add more later if we need to 02:23 kados thd: lets restrict ourselves to just OCLC conventions 02:23 thd what is the Cataloger's Reference shelf URL where you found a list of GMDs? 02:24 kados thd: then, we can add more later 02:24 kados thd: for the sake of time, lets just use OCLC for now 02:24 thd kados: those are not the OCLC conventions but only a subset 02:24 kados we can cross reference after the logic is in place 02:24 thd OK 02:25 kados what additional GMDs exist ? 02:25 thd map and globe for example in the US 02:26 kados hmmm 02:26 kados MARC is hard :-) 02:26 thd they were both cartographic material in the UK 02:27 thd current UK standards may have adopted US standards for GMDs 02:27 kados Library of Congress Rule Interpretations I think is what we need to reference 02:27 kados to find out the GMDs 02:27 kados itsmarc doesn't have as many as OCLC lists, so I assume they are working from an earlier version 02:28 thd kados: They are in Cataloger's Desktop subscription along with the current edition of AACR2 02:28 kados which neither of us have :( 02:29 thd \kados: that list only refers to how to apply a particular rule and only lists the subset GMDs which apply to that rule 02:31 thd I do have the 1978 list and I am confident that maps and globes etc. did not fall into the void after being outlawed 02:31 kados thd: ahh, my latest interpretation of the OCLC page is that it lists all mandatory GMDs 02:32 kados "If one of the following GMDs is applicable, it is mandatory " 02:32 thd exactly, there are more which are optional 02:33 kados ok, lets just do mandatory for now 02:33 kados man, this is really gonna take a long time 02:34 kados especially when we circle back and remove all our contraints 02:34 thd :) 02:34 kados MARC21 Bibliographic Monographs Mandatory only 02:35 thd kados: a subscription to Cataloger's Desktop is indispensable for doing this sort of thing well 02:36 kados yea 02:36 kados ok, so we've done BKS 02:36 kados I am inclined to pause the exercise and assume we can find the relevant values for 245 $h for the rest of the material types 02:37 kados what other fields do we need to consider if any? 02:38 thd next: computer files will always be electronic resources maybe 02:38 thd electronic resources are tricky 02:39 kados yea 02:40 kados a computer file could be a game or a graphic, or a picture or a slide or a sound recording 02:40 thd then we have 02:41 thd 008/25 for maps 02:41 kados whoever defined these catetories is a moron 02:41 kados really narrow view of the world 02:42 thd that does not disturb me but the unevenness of 40 years worth of committee work does 02:43 kados lets move on from 245 $h, and assume we can parse through the documentation and find what we need for that based on the leader, 008, and (in the case of globes) 040 02:43 kados what other fields do we need to consider? 02:43 kados 006 perhaps? 02:43 thd 040? 02:44 kados Only use the “graphicâ€? GMD when applying the “Graphic Materialsâ€? descriptive conventions. Note that these conventions are being applied with the value “gihcâ€? in subfield ‡e of field 040. 02:44 kados s/globes/graphic/ 02:45 thd one point is that 245 $h should have a 'no value' unused option by default 02:45 kados ok 02:46 kados noted 02:46 kados 006 then? 02:49 thd 006 is almost identical to 008 in function except that it is repeatable for additional material which may be part of the bibliographic item such as a CD in the back of a book, etc. 02:50 kados does it only apply with mixed materials? 02:51 thd not the special sense of mixed materials from 006 as far as I know 02:57 thd the definition that you suggested corresponds to how mixed materials is used in AACR2 - 1978. However, I have found 006 used in the real world when 000/06 was not mixed materials 03:01 thd you can see from the code which I sent you where I include MARC 008 equivalents to UNIMARC 100 values that UNIMARC defines mixed materials as multimedia 03:02 kados lets avoid UNIMARC for now 03:02 thd just trying to clarify the MARC 21 meaning 03:04 thd in actual practise use of 006 is rare. but cataloguers do not have nice plugins to help them fill the coded values 03:06 thd but in any case 006 cannot be preconstrained by an earlier value 03:07 kados except for 008? 03:07 kados and the leader 03:07 dewey rumour has it the leader is very necessary 03:07 kados right? 03:08 thd 006/00 determines the meaning of the other positions 03:09 thd similar to 007/00. If only that had been done for 008 then 008 would be easier 03:11 thd starting text for 300 can be filled from 008 03:11 kados example? 03:11 dewey well, example is 750 #0$aSummer resorts$0(DLC)sh85130430$wna 03:13 thd I have examples in the hints on cataloguing for the last job which I did for you 03:17 kados thd: http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=asmp 03:19 kados thd: when you say 'starting text for 300, do you mean 'part of the text for 300? 03:19 kados it's not always going to be starting, in the case of 6 CDs for example, the CDs is the part I assume that could be derived 03:20 thd I think I included special hints in the librarian label fo 300 $a for various types of records which were created for ASMP 03:22 kados I think the 300 field is impossible to index anyway 03:22 thd exactly so 000/06 == 'a' for monographs would suggest 300 $a p. $c cm. 03:23 kados so in this case, you would want a popup 03:23 kados to ask the number of pages and cm. of the book 03:23 kados or ... 03:23 thd it has to be free form 03:23 kados highlight the 300 field to indicate it needs to be filled out 03:24 thd having even the $a p. $c cm. there is a big time saver if you have many records to do 03:26 kados function field_300_partial_values { 03:26 kados if ($materialType == 'BKS') { 03:26 kados field_300a = 'p.'; 03:26 kados field_300c - 'cm.'; 03:26 kados } 03:26 kados } 03:26 thd actually I left out the semicolon: 300 $a p.;$c cm. 03:30 kados function field_300_partial_values { 03:30 kados if ($materialType == 'BKS') { 03:30 kados $field_300a = '?p.;'; 03:30 kados $field_300c = '?cm.'; 03:30 kados } 03:30 kados return 03:30 kados } 03:31 kados thd: ok, what else? 03:31 kados thd: I am getting tired, I should probably get home 03:31 thd the user must be able to add arbitrary text such as 300 $avi, 270p., bibliography p. 271-174;$c21 cm. 03:31 kados and go to bed 03:32 kados yes, that's what the ? is for 03:33 thd I mean even at the end of the field or erasing the p. and entering 2 v. 03:34 thd where multiple volumes do not have their separate pagination recorded in a single record 03:35 kados yep 03:35 kados the help section should have information for the user on what available values are 03:35 kados with examples perhaps 03:36 kados ok, I must walk home now 03:36 kados it's getting late 03:37 kados we have identified: 03:37 kados LEADER/06/ and 07 03:37 kados 008 03:37 kados 245 $h 03:38 kados and 300 03:38 thd the default for CDs in 300 should be $a1 CD;$cI forgot the height cm. determined from 007 03:40 kados all the rest of the fields are independent 03:40 thd there is some for 300 in whatever we used to call the ASMP frameworks 03:40 thd other fields are also dependent 03:41 kados which ones? 03:41 kados I think 300 is a bad example 03:41 kados for this exercise 03:41 kados because you can only derive partial values 03:41 kados I think we should not handle partial values with this exercise 03:41 kados lets restrict our study to: 03:41 thd kados: you would not think so if you had to create many original records 03:42 kados MARC21 Bibliographic Monographs Mandatory Fields where full values can be derived 03:42 kados from previous values 03:42 kados s/from previous values/from values in previous fields/ 03:42 thd 300 is required except for electronic resources and other record editors already do just what I described 03:43 kados yes, I know 03:43 kados we will expand our features 03:43 kados are there no further fields where full values can be derived? 03:45 thd there is the issue of adding some standard fields and subfields used by various record types 03:45 kados yes 03:46 kados should that be done using material type? 03:46 kados select material type -> standard fields appear in the record ? 03:46 thd and also more fileds/subfields or fewer depending upon record level 03:46 kados ahh, right 03:47 kados thd: would we use the asmp frameworks as a starting point? 03:48 thd yes, those were mostly minimal level with a few good to have fields 03:48 kados if we restrict ourselves to type='a' and level='minimal', what fields/subfields should be 'standard'? 03:49 thd most of the unusual aspects were the friendly labels for the librarian instead of the standard labels 03:49 kados right 03:49 kados thd: would it take long to define standard fields/subfields for type 'a' and level 'minimal'? 03:49 kados or should I go to bed? 03:50 kados :-) 03:50 thd 001 03:50 thd 003 03:50 thd 005 03:50 thd 007 is not required for minimal but people should use it anyways 03:51 thd 008 03:51 thd 010 03:51 thd 040 03:51 kados which subfields? 03:52 kados just $a? 03:52 thd 010 $a 03:52 thd 040 $a can be prefilled for original cataloguing 03:52 kados 929 03:52 kados oops 020 03:52 thd 929? 03:53 kados I meant 020 03:53 kados <-- tired 03:53 thd 020 $a 03:54 kados 050? 03:55 kados 100 $a 03:56 kados 245 $a 03:56 kados 300 $a $c 03:56 kados $650 03:56 thd 050 #4 $a $b or 082 #4 $a $b depending on the library preference 03:58 kados did I miss any? 03:58 kados 650 $a 03:58 kados I think those are the main ones 03:58 thd call number $b should be auto generated from 100 $a and 260 $c etc. 03:58 kados cutter you mean? 03:58 thd yes 03:59 kados ok 03:59 kados I have a note 03:59 kados any fields missing? 03:59 thd you left out 260 ## $a $b $c 03:59 kados ahh 04:00 thd will the subfield disappear when saved if the value is blank or a space? 04:00 kados yes 04:01 kados the user should also be able to define their own 'templates' 04:01 kados similar to our frameworks, but more flexible 04:01 kados OK, here's what I have: 04:01 kados fields that should be 'standard' for type=='a' and level=='minimal': 04:01 kados Leader, 001, 003, 005, 007, 008, 010 $a, 020 $a, 040 $a(prefilled), 04:01 kados 050 $a $b or 082 $a $b depending on the library preference 04:01 kados call number $b should be auto generated from 100 $a and 260 $c etc. 04:01 kados 100 $a, 245 $a, 260 $a $b $c 300 $a $c 650 $a 04:02 kados subfield should disappear if the value is blank or a space 04:02 kados and with that, I'm going to head home for some well deserved rest :-) 04:02 thd then 245 $a $h $b $c 04:03 kados good night thd 04:03 thd 700 $a 04:03 thd :) 04:03 thd we could do more with default indicators 04:04 thd good night kados 06:08 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: toins_ n=toins@paulpoulain.pck.nerim.net 07:44 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: _lloyd_ n=lloyd_p0@nat.wsufftrust.org.uk 07:44 lloyd morning