Time  Nick     Message
09:01 lloyd    sad I know
08:56 lloyd    i started the day at 7:45 with a coffee and 15mins of big brother before getting ready for work :)
08:56 lloyd    ahh
08:55 slef     No, software needs upgrade, but machine too loaded ATM
08:54 lloyd    crappy h/w? :)
08:54 lloyd    ahhh nice
08:51 slef     I started at 8am with a server crash :-/
08:50 dewey    hello, slef
08:50 slef     hi
08:37 lloyd    morning slef
00:28 thd      kados: ping
20:01 thd      kados: are you still there?
19:31 thd      there is a UNIMARC to MARC 21 conversion program at LC
19:31 foxnorth bbl
19:30 foxnorth i wonder i there's a tutorial somewhere comparing marc21 and unimarc for catalogers
19:29 foxnorth that's about as far as i've gotten in my understanding so far :)
19:29 thd      UNIMARC 1XX are the equivalents of MARC 21 006-008
19:27 foxnorth and i need to get familiar w/ unimarc
19:27 foxnorth yes that's true
19:27 thd      foxnorth it is not only the fixed fields which have his problem but also some indicators work together; many subfields have coded values; and some subfields especially in UNIMARC have fixed length positions just like fixed fields
19:24 foxnorth external documentation, that is
19:24 foxnorth as you said, referring to documentation is a deterrent
19:24 foxnorth that's right
19:24 foxnorth we need a good way to define them and their interactions within the fixed fields and within the larger record as a whole
19:24 thd      foxnorth: no feature should unnecessarily constrain the speed of the record editor but the speed of completing a fully completed record is what is important and referring to documentation is much slower than selecting a value directly from a self documenting form
19:23 foxnorth yeah, the fixed fields are complicated!
19:22 foxnorth yeah, a help pane or dialog box or something should be available to provide help for a particular field, with all positions shown
19:18 thd      foxnorth: also some position values must constrain the values for other positions and some positions are only filled collectively with others as a group
19:16 thd      foxnorth: although it should be possible to have a view which shows all at once the semantic values recorded for an entire field rather than one position or position group at a time
19:13 thd      foxnorth: yes I agree
19:13 foxnorth well, it obscures part, but not as much as popup window perhaps?
19:12 foxnorth thd: what i was thinking was that a popup window slows the cataloging down (have to wait for window to open, read, then close), whereas a dropdown or autocomplete appears w/o obscuring the rest of the record, and yet could give the same semantic information (a - Language material ...)
19:10 thd      foxforth: I did not understand what was intended by a preference to not have popups except that something like what I described which exists as part of the JavaScript forms based Koha editor would not be possible
19:07 thd      yes: cataloguers hate repetition which is why often only the textual value subfields are completed for some data elements
19:06 foxnorth but the option should be available
19:06 foxnorth no need to burden someone when they don't need it.
19:06 foxnorth yeah, i agree
19:06 thd      foxforth: however, it is important that the user can avoid being forced to use the additional view by using some preference about what happens upon entering the relevant field/subfield/indicators.  But it should always be available contextually with some command or tabbing to a point where it can be actuated and pressing space or enter to actuate.
19:03 foxnorth and eventually validated by the editor where possible (e.g. with dates)
19:03 foxnorth whatever repetition is necessary in a record (e.g. date in fixed fields and date in publication date area) should be handled by the editor
19:02 foxnorth yeah, i think both of these would be extremely useful and well received
19:01 thd      foxnorth: yes, but also dynamic so that choosing a value for one part/position constrains values for another part/position
18:59 foxnorth thd: do you mean an autocomplete-type list populated w/ values such as: a - Language material | c - Notated music ....so that a short description is included along with the value to use?
18:54 thd      kados: you will not of course lose anything which you have already but only a significant part of the potential
18:53 thd      kados: if what I describe is not available in open cataloger, you will lose the value of a major differentiator for Koha.  I image that will be very expensive loss for marketing Koha support
18:47 kados    thd: looking now
18:47 thd      kados: look at the message which I just posted to the opencataloger-dev list
18:17 foxnorth right,
18:17 kados    anyway
18:17 kados    :-)
18:17 kados    ROAR
18:17 kados    installation is a bear
18:16 foxnorth will do
18:16 kados    I'd recommend it
18:16 foxnorth i'm running ubuntu but i could always put debian etch in vmware
18:16 kados    foxnorth: the docs in that package I sent should help out so long as you have a debian etch box
18:16 foxnorth anyway, perhaps this is too far afield for opencat
18:15 foxnorth got to get 3.0 setup here
18:15 foxnorth gotcha
18:15 kados    indexing is in zebra
18:15 kados    storage is in mysql
18:15 foxnorth ah right, in zebra?
18:14 kados    well 3.0 stores natively as MARCXML
18:14 foxnorth and then converts marcxml string into marc::record and puts into db?
18:14 kados    koha now converts a form submission into a MARCXML string
18:13 kados    not quite
18:13 kados    well
18:13 foxnorth but that's getting close to what koha is now, no?
18:13 foxnorth then return the record to display
18:13 foxnorth like, using perl on the backend to manipulate marc would be a lot easier than dom manipulations in js
18:13 kados    not sure I understand
18:13 kados    such as?
18:12 foxnorth well i also don't know about the divisino of labor betw. front and backend in terms of the marc editing....
18:12 kados    but if we can acomplish the same goals using ajax toolkits I'd be happy
18:11 foxnorth i could definately see that
18:11 kados    like XUL
18:11 kados    I guess the pain of the current implementation in Koha caused me to swing the other way and look for something radical
18:11 slef     kados: I wonder about your romantic abnormalities.
18:11 foxnorth for sure
18:11 kados    there's something sexy about a browser-based MARC editor that works really well
18:10 foxnorth those are the main two i guess, plus songbird??
18:10 kados    and is it developed in xulrunner now?
18:10 slef     the future is oranges
18:10 foxnorth and thunderbird
18:09 foxnorth good point :)
18:09 kados    well I guess Firefox is a XUL application
18:09 kados    yup
18:08 foxnorth although the ajax/js toolkits have their fans as well
18:08 foxnorth yeah, xulrunner seems to have a certain amount of popularity
18:08 kados    are people building xul or ext/yui/jquery apps these days?
18:08 foxnorth i love the idea of xul.
18:08 foxnorth right, where is the future???
18:08 foxnorth hhm.
18:08 kados    I guess where is the future?
18:08 foxnorth anyway, as we think about bigger goals and new features, i'm just wondering how it will be to implement in xul. but again, i'm not extremely familiar w/ xul or any other toolkit in particular, so i'm not the best judge.
18:08 kados    about re-designing it without XUL
18:07 kados    slef would probbaly agree with you
18:07 foxnorth which comprises much of opencataloger at this point...
18:06 foxnorth but the xul has been interesting, and i also would hate to lose the work that's been put into opencat's xul interface
18:05 kados    I'm not gonna hold you back ;-)
18:05 foxnorth i'm not sure!
18:05 kados    if you think you could do better in ext/yui/jquery ...
18:05 foxnorth cos to be perfectly honest, (in my limited experience) i've been finding xul a bit cumbersome and rigid. but that may very well be my limited exp. w/ xul compared to ext/yui/jquery etc
18:05 kados    that's my main interest there
18:05 kados    I think xul is really fantastic interface technology
18:04 foxnorth kados: you had said a while back you preferred sticking to xul as opposed to a js toolkit like ext/yui-- do you feel like the main benefits to xul are separation of ui and js scripts? Is it also stability you're concerned with in the other js toolkits?
18:03 kados    slef: I've actually been thrown by that a few times
18:03 kados    slef: yea, isn't that nuts
18:02 kados    yea, very well
18:02 foxnorth yeah, i thought i saw that.  it works pretty well for eg?
18:02 kados    I think there's only an installer for windows though
18:02 kados    that's what EG's staff client is packaged in
18:02 kados    xulrunner is really nice actually
18:01 slef     HTTP standard. (foldoc)
18:01 slef     referer - A misspelling of "referrer" which somehow made it into the
18:01 kados    but I'm in favor of using available toolkits like dojo, jquery, yui
18:01 foxnorth yeah, it seems counterintuitive.  i guess there's xulrunner, but i really don't know what the status of it is...
18:01 kados    I'd prefer to avoid making a firefox extension unless there are strong reasons too
18:01 foxnorth you mean better than making opencat an extension, or using google gears?
18:00 slef     oh yeah, strange US English
18:00 kados    which might be better than an extension
18:00 kados    there's also the Dojo Offline Toolkit
18:00 foxnorth yet
18:00 foxnorth ah, i've seen but haven't played with
18:00 kados    foxnorth: Google Gears
17:59 foxnorth a tool for which?
17:59 kados    foxnorth: Google has a tool for this
17:59 slef     oh wait, do you write referer?
17:59 kados    foxnorth: Save changes in opencataloger (xml dom...eventually sqlite?)
17:59 kados    slef: :-)
17:59 foxnorth i havne't included everything, of course...
17:59 slef     no, I just wondered whether it should be cataloger or catalogger - I don't know how it conjugates
17:58 foxnorth so, on the whole, how does this list jive with what you're envisioning (if that' s not too much to ask in chat??!)
17:58 kados    short sighted ofme
17:58 foxnorth good point
17:58 kados    because of the spelling differences of catalog and catalogue
17:58 foxnorth right, hadn't thought of htat
17:57 kados    we may end up changing names
17:57 foxnorth sure, whatever's easiest/best.
17:57 kados    but for now I'd prefer to use the liblime wiki: wiki.liblime.com
17:57 foxnorth so, i wanted to get down what's working, what isn't and what we want to work...ultimately
17:57 kados    we do own the opencataloger domain
17:57 kados    cool
17:55 kados    definite must
17:55 kados    and saving too
17:55 foxnorth yeah, need that
17:55 kados    thought of that last night: open file of MARC records
17:55 kados    oooh, yes
17:53 foxnorth ok, just sent my list of workflows/uses to opencat-dev
17:53 kados    yea
17:53 foxnorth yeah, i think we need to pause and figure out what we want from this thing :)
17:53 kados    yea, I did
17:53 foxnorth very- dunno if you saw my reply from a short while ago yet?
17:53 kados    it's easy to get caught up in the thrill of fast development
17:52 kados    but it's important I think
17:52 foxnorth i bet!
17:52 foxnorth i'm just about to send some use cases as i see them right now to the list
17:52 kados    took a while to write :-)
17:52 foxnorth hey kados: great email this morning. took me a while to digest. :)
17:52 kados    hey foxnorth
15:32 thd      s/is//
15:32 thd      there is are programs for better control of the feature but none are packaged for Debian unless you use Gnome or KDE
15:30 thd      s/minute/period of minutes/
15:30 slef     I type a number unexpectedly
15:30 thd      slef: 9?
15:29 slef     9
15:29 thd      slef: the only problem I have with the built in X-windows function is that the feauture turns itself off after some minute and then I type a number unexpectedly
15:28 [K]      *** part FreeNode!#koha: _lloyd_ n=lloyd_p0@nat.wsufftrust.org.uk
15:27 thd      slef: all the numbers around 5 point in their relative direction of course
15:26 thd      slef: + gives a double click
15:26 thd      slef: . releases the button
15:26 slef     heh
15:26 thd      slef: - . releases the button
15:26 slef     and 5 to release again... mmm
15:25 thd      slef: - 0 holds the button down
15:25 slef     I think that's changed since I last used it.
15:25 thd      slef: - sets the right button
15:24 slef     and - the right, gotcha
15:24 thd      slef: * sets the middle button or both
15:24 thd      slef: / sets the left button
15:24 thd       sets the left button
15:23 slef     where are the other mouse buttons?
15:23 slef     and 5 to left-click
15:23 slef     I tried ctrl-alt-numlock, which was close but no cookie
15:22 slef     oh yeah, and tap shift while pointing to go faster
15:22 thd      in X-windows
15:22 thd      slef: shift-numlock starts the mouse keys function
15:21 thd      slef: I only use mouse keys as well
15:21 slef     hrm, I can't remember how to do that in X though :)
15:20 slef     thd: the keyboard can move the pointer at a push, so I'd put them the other way around, but both is best.
15:18 thd      slef: I think that ensuring that every function can be performed quickly with the keyboard alone using the tab key or whatever is much more important than ensuring it works without JavaScript
15:18 thd      owen: I think that ensuring that every function can be performed quickly with the keyboard alone using the tab key or whatever is much more important than ensuring it works without JavaScript
15:16 slef     I think it got grade 3 on their 5-point scale.  So not brilliant, but usable with adaptations that they already had.
15:15 owen     And it qualified as "accessible?"
15:14 slef     owen: I've not evaluated the commercial cataloguers.  One of my FE colleges did a while back and I think they had one Windows one which was OK.
15:06 slef     Maybe some time, but it looks like a html version is prevented by the XUL tech requirement.
15:03 kados    slef: if you want to contribute code, that woudl be welcome
15:03 kados    slef: there is no budget for this, it's being done on a shoestring
15:03 kados    slef: we're locking down to firefox
15:03 slef     kados: use it if you want, but please leave a basic version usable without it (or at least have some idea how one could be made, leave the door open) if you want the widest possible audience.
15:00 slef     thd: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=459065&in_page_id=1879
15:00 slef     kados: I've found javascript to be a huge resource drain unless you lock down to only support one browser.  I hear the ajax compatibility libraries are improving it, but use much CPU
14:58 thd      slef: what does Martini mean in that context?
14:58 slef     part of the motive for web applications is "the Martini approach" - any time, any place, any where
14:58 kados    slef: and they require javascript to perform what they want to perform
14:58 thd      kados: it should be though as long as your libraries' records cannot be overwritten by the patrons
14:58 owen     slef, have you evaluated commercially-available cataloging clients for accessibility?
14:57 kados    but I'm poor and I need to make something that works for my customer
14:57 kados    slef: if I were rich, I would agree with you
14:57 slef     a cataloguing application has basic services
14:57 kados    slef: a cataloging application is not a basic service
14:56 thd      owen: unfortunately the real world meets neither of those conditions so we either have to change the world or change the applications and changing the applications is easier
14:56 slef     It's completely stupid to prevent non-javascript clients from accessing basic services.  Even google is slowly tracking back on that, opening maps up to non-javascript browsers and so on.
14:56 owen     So they don't use /any/ current web application
14:55 slef     owen: lots of college machines have javascript blockers by standard these days.
14:55 thd      owen: I hope to live in a world where either every device supports JavaScript perfectly or JavaScript is not required to accomplish any task
14:54 slef     too slow :-/
14:54 kados    and toins / paul did much of the interface work in XUL
14:54 kados    thd: now it's just one student working, the google summer of code guy
14:54 owen     And you believe that a cataloging client would need to adhere to those standards, assuming that "abuse" is not relevant here?
14:53 slef     hang on, some tike is banging on the building vents again
14:53 slef     because of its accessibility, energy and abuse problems.
14:53 slef     owen: no.  I exist in a world where Javascript is used sparingly,
14:53 owen     ...unless the audience *specifically* requires no javascript for some technical reason.
14:53 owen     It's ridiculous to expect a modern web application to fully function completely free of javascript
14:52 owen     slef, do you really exist in a world completely free of javascript?
14:52 thd      kados: what is the structure of the classroom work if it is no longer competitive teams starting from nothing but some direction to the standards?
14:51 slef     heh, tabs... anyone want a http://www.useit.com/alertbox/991114.html
14:51 kados    historical info on the origins ofthe project and the goals
14:51 kados    http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=catalogingproject
14:50 kados    some screenshots if you want to know what it is
14:50 slef     I really don't know how US spells it.  I do well to remember that they don't use ue on the end ;-)
14:50 kados    http://kados.org/stuff/opencat-results.png
14:50 kados    http://kados.org/stuff/opencat-help.png
14:50 lloyd    opencatlog :)
14:50 kados    http://kados.org/stuff/opencat-fixedfield_editor.png
14:50 kados    a name change may be in order
14:49 slef     lloyd: knickers to them.
14:49 lloyd    bloody americans
14:49 slef     No gg?
14:49 kados    slef: that's the american spelling
14:49 thd      kados: I thought the purpose of open cataloguer was cataloguing, not necessarily cataloguing in JavaScript
14:49 slef     and are you worried by the spelling error? ;-)
14:48 slef     http://home.gna.org/opencataloger/
14:48 slef     so what is opencataloguer?
14:48 slef     https://gna.org/projects/opencataloger
14:48 slef     That's not informative!
14:48 slef     This project has not yet submitted a short description. You can submit it now.
14:47 kados    heh
14:47 slef     fiddling with each college's browser to allow koha's admin interface to run scripts is getting very boring
14:47 kados    we're creating something else with opencataloger
14:47 kados    slef: the existing MARC record editor in KOha fulfills that goal
14:46 kados    slef: that's not the purpose of opencataloger
14:46 kados    slef: ha!
14:46 slef     as an aside, please ask opencataloguer to "use but not rely on" javascript ;-)
14:45 slef     https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/opencataloger-dev
14:44 slef     vrooooooooooooom
14:44 thd      kados: and also where do I subscribe?
14:43 thd      what is the structure of the classroom work if it is no longer competitive teams starting from nothing but some direction to the standards?
14:42 thd      ?
14:42 thd      or is that list also being used for the Koha development as well
14:41 thd      the classroom part?
14:41 kados    thd: for the opencataloger project
14:41 kados    thd: that's the opencataloger list
14:40 thd      kados: what is that list?
14:40 thd      kados: I found MEDICI for EDI in Perl, which I had forgotten; but I wanted to ask you about the list to which you pointed me
14:39 kados    thd: just in theory :-)
14:38 slef     approach sounds sane (driving expat)
14:38 thd      kados: are you still here?
14:37 slef     thanks
14:36 thd      I could not remember MEDICI in association with EDI
14:35 thd      that is the most complete set of modules for EDI in Perl
14:34 thd      http://www.s-mart.net/medici/
14:34 thd      I found it
14:31 slef     I don't mind a bit of heavy lifting.
14:23 thd      there was no high level abstraction for the common tasks people wanted to perform because that level of the work on the modules was unfinished
14:21 thd      the PERL modules which I had were sufficient for doing something but they worked a much lower message level than most people expected
14:20 slef     It doesn't look like it has changed since 2002 at latest
14:19 thd      I have not looked at this in detail for about a year and a half
14:19 slef     TRADOS looked like someting for translations
14:18 thd      which is in the page that you posted
14:18 thd      slef: TRADOS may be from my poor memory perhaps the proprietary standard is Tradicoms
14:18 kados    slef: yea, welcome to libraries
14:17 slef     I'm in a maze of twisty standards, all different.
14:17 slef     sorry
14:17 slef     oh yeah, it hooks to EDIFACT for the INVOICES stuff
14:15 slef     http://www.bic.org.uk/ecommerce-implementation.html#2
14:15 thd      ONIX was developed by the Book Industry Study Group in the US for bibliographic data
14:14 slef     ONIX seemed to cover QUOTES and INVOICES and so on when I read it
14:14 slef     I can find the EDIFACT details, but it doesn't seem promoted
14:14 thd      ONIX is designed more for bibliographic metadata than orders
14:13 slef     UK Book Industry Communication seems to be pushing ONIX today
14:13 thd      use of EDIFACT is largely confined to major business outside the US and Canada
14:11 thd      TRADOS being the proprietary standard used in the UK
14:10 kados    slef: heh
14:10 thd      there was one Perl module which included support for X12, X11, TRADOS, and EDIFACT all in one
14:09 slef     But we're no average programmers, right? :)
14:08 thd      I was looking but I did not find my old notes easily for this
14:04 kados    typical library standard :-)
14:04 kados    UN/EDIFACT is sometimes called nightmare of paperless office. About 3000 pages define the UN/EDIFACT standard to provide a rich semantic for electronic data interchange for trade commerce and transport. A semantic that is difficult to understand and to implement for the average programmer.
14:04 kados    XML::Edifact - an approach towards XML/EDI as a prototype in perl
14:03 kados    thd: this one?
14:03 kados    http://www.xml-edifact.org/TR/XML-Edifact-3.html
13:54 slef     which developer?
13:50 thd      the developer already had dealt with some of those issues for the old UK standard which is probably still used extensively and proprietary
13:49 kados    thd: *nod*
13:49 thd      kados: the problem is that you cannot get all the information for all the standards easily
13:48 kados    thd: if it's poor code, I'd rather start from scratch
13:48 kados    thd: and how well written the code is
13:48 kados    thd: that depends on the developer
13:48 slef     I think I've got a bookseller who is willing to help me test.
13:48 kados    thd: which modules?
13:48 thd      kados: I would advise hiring the developer of them to finish that work when it becomes a valuable feature to have
13:48 slef     I'm expecting to write some EDI interface modules.
13:46 kados    thd: right, we would need to expand on those
13:46 kados    we need a visionary library to take on the expense of developing that
13:46 thd      the problem with EDI in Perl is that the supporting libraries are underdeveloped even if they work for the level present
13:46 kados    (more than just a report)
13:46 kados    allow claims automatically
13:46 kados    then  track the order
13:46 kados    update the budget
13:45 kados    is initiate the order from koha, use a web service on the vendor's site to find books, add them to a basket, and place an order, then get back expected delivery times, etc.
13:45 slef     what else
13:45 slef     tracks the order, balances the budgets
13:45 kados    what I want to be able to do
13:45 kados    hehe
13:45 slef     In God We Trust. All Others Bring Data.
13:45 kados    edi does more than just grab the marc though
13:44 kados    at least that's how it's supposed to work
13:44 kados    we sorta have to
13:44 kados    yea
13:44 kados    EDIFAX is another I think
13:44 slef     do we trust the supplier's bib that much, though?
13:44 kados    ONIX is just one of the edi standards
13:43 kados    when you acquisition something in Koha, it creates a minimal bib
13:43 kados    you want to attach it to the bib record
13:43 kados    well, not the reservoir
13:43 slef     kados: really?  ONIX looked like something half-standard.  I guess we can XSLT them into a koha-common-EDI-import form?  <eg>
13:43 slef     the supplier into the reservoir so it's ready for acquisitions
13:43 slef     only thing I think is really new there is to feed the MARC record from
13:43 kados    like all library standards
13:42 kados    the EDI messages are gonna be different for every vendor
13:42 kados    AFAIK
13:42 kados    most implementations use FTP
13:42 kados    it's a pretty simple process actually
13:42 kados    yea
13:42 slef     kados: customer enquiry.  Am I right in thinking it's a case of altering acquisitions to send/receive the EDI messages?
13:41 kados    slef: why do you ask?
13:41 kados    thd: feel free to join that list and add your comments to the mix :-)
13:40 kados    thd: you can see some of the fruits of our labor last night in that email response
13:40 kados    thd: https://mail.gna.org/public/opencataloger-dev/2007-06/msg00024.html
13:39 lloyd    kados - yeah very lol
13:39 kados    hi thd
13:39 kados    to discuss it
13:39 kados    but I'm meeting with Ebsco at ALA next week
13:39 kados    slef: only casually
13:38 slef     kados: have you looked at bookseller EDI?  onix etc
13:38 kados    lloyd: looks like we're behind schedule :-)
13:36 slef     still phoone
13:35 kados    looking
13:35 lloyd    its not very exciting
13:34 lloyd    kados - check your mail :)
13:24 lloyd    ;)
13:23 slef     sorry
13:23 slef     1mo, phone
13:19 kados    slef: yo
13:15 slef     kados or paul alive?