IRC log for #koha, 2005-05-25

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:06 kados shaun: that's great news
12:07 kados shaun: I'll be sending out an email today
12:07 kados shaun: calling an IRC meeting
12:07 kados so stay tuned ;-)
12:37 slef kados: can you approve me back onto koha-manage?
12:37 slef (changed email address)
12:37 slef that's assuming I should be there still ;-)
12:48 shaun I have run into some problems about what we sell ourselves as
12:49 shaun (after talking to shedges yesterday about it)
12:49 kados slef: I haven't gotten my superpowers yet ;-)
12:50 shaun to recap: "maintained by a team of volunteers" suggests two things: "nerds" and "unprofessional" to a conservative user
12:50 shaun (or at least a potential user, which is most damaging)
12:51 shaun "open source" needs to be considered - there are plenty of ILS running on things like ASP, but not GPL-compliant
12:51 kados shaun: how's this:
12:51 kados Koha, the first "free and open-source" integrated library system
12:51 kados Developed initially in New Zealand by Katipo Communications Ltd. and first
12:51 kados +deployed in January of 2000, Koha's development is currently steered by a
12:51 kados +growing community of libraries collaborating to achieve their technology goals.
12:51 kados +Koha is a full-featured ILS including: a catalogue, OPAC, circulation,
12:51 kados +acquisitions, cataloging, administration and reporting. It is fully MARC
12:51 kados +compliant and supports Z39.50 (client and server).
12:52 kados I'd like to focus on the 'steered by libraries' ... Koha is software built FOR librarians
12:52 kados they pick what gets done
12:52 shedges I think slef had some other language (irc a couple of days ago)  -- more than just libraries
12:52 shaun good - that's also what I have been focusing on in my (now 11 pages, *sigh*) report to DHSB Library
12:54 owen That's your school library shaun?
12:55 kados shedges: it's true that agencies other than libraries are doing the work on Koha ... but I'd like to focus on the fact that it's the libraries that are 'steering' that development
12:55 owen I think that's a fair thing to say, kados.
12:55 shedges gotcha
12:56 shaun yes - devonport high school for boys, --hopefully there'll be some opac on there ;-)
12:56 owen shaun, are you proposing some kind of formal support contract with them?
12:57 shaun I was hoping I could find an agency to do it - anybody know TTLLP's rates?
12:58 shaun me being a student there, I will probably pop in and feel the warmth coming from the server every now and then though.
12:59 indradg kados, shedges, slef, shaun : now that various agencies across the world are contributing to Koha can I suggest something abt this "maintained by a team of volunteers" biz
13:00 indradg provides rach and others at Katipo are OK with it
13:00 shaun aha - kados, have you considered opening up a task group for implementations in educational establishments? particularly secondary schools, as they could benefit hugely from koha, provided it has support.
13:00 indradg how about "Developed and maintained by the Koha Consortium" ?
13:01 owen open a task group?  What does that mean?
13:01 kados shaun: not sure what you mean
13:01 shaun a la the ones kados mentioned in his e-mail to the list
13:01 shedges most of the code comments recognize "Koha Development Team"
13:01 shedges (often misspelled)
13:01 owen shaun, I don't think we have enough school-oriented users right now to form such a group
13:02 shaun e.g. website/interface design, documentation, i18n etc.
13:03 indradg i think owen has a point here
13:03 shaun imo, it's the second largest potential "market" though
13:03 owen Sure, but those of us working on koha have to be selfish in what we work on.  It has to be relevent to our own organizations
13:06 kados shaun: I think it's a good thing to talk about within the context of our 'interface design' discussion
13:06 kados i.e., should we include different templates based on the library type
13:07 shaun why's that? one template should rule them all
13:07 kados but I don't think we have enough designers to form a new 'focus group' devoted to just that design
13:07 owen I was wondering this morning if we should investigate how to do a customized home page, letting users choose which nagigational elements they wanted
13:07 indradg kados, remember I mentioned AACR2 style cataloging templates in a priv msg to you during the meeting?
13:08 kados shaun: although I believe seperating content from presentation is a good goal, it's not always possible
13:08 kados indradg: yep
13:08 shaun It's just the "sales structure" that should be more specific - have a look at softlink ( - they have it right, i.e. they sell the same ILS products but with different highlighted features.
13:08 indradg well... being a non-librarian, libraries across India (the automated ones) use one or two particular s/w developed in India
13:09 shaun e.g. a school would find inline display pictures of the members /very/ useful, whereas a public library does not - so it can be turned on or off in parameters
13:09 indradg In these s/w, the cataloging interface apparently resembles the catalog card style followed by AACR2 standard
13:09 kados shaun: if that's all we're talking about than I tend to agree
13:10 indradg the Koha interface is quite removed from that,  and librarians trained on those s/w react negatively to Koha's interface...
13:10 shaun kados: the only other bugbear is support - somebody needs to support this thing so that schools can afford it.
13:11 shedges indrag, can you get all of a MARC record in AACR2?
13:11 kados shaun: ;-)
13:11 shaun kados: you international now? :p
13:11 slef "free and open source software"?
13:11 indradg shaun, I'm displaying the member pic + specimen signature on the intranet interface at one of my installation
13:11 kados shaun: sure ... but since you're in UK I'd check wtih slef first
13:12 slef shaun: what you after a rate for?
13:12 slef feel free to msg if you prefer
13:12 slef I'm sort-of here
13:12 kados :-)
13:12 indradg all u really  need is to add a couple of extra fields in the borrowers table and two extra lines  in the tmpl file
13:12 slef Anyone else notice the kohaweb address barfs an error back?
13:12 shaun slef: a secondary school - do you do professional support?
13:12 owen slef: which address?
13:13 slef shaun: yes, either hourly or long-term contract. I'm very suspicious of schools, though (bad experiences).
13:13 slef owen:
13:13 shaun slef: do you have a website for that?
13:14 owen oh... haven't tried it.  Maybe they neglected to get it set up yet
13:14 slef shaun: and I think, but the second isn't very up to date. Our own web site comes last.
13:14 slef owen: it says:
13:14 slef RT could not load a valid user, and RT's configuration does not allow
13:14 slef for the creation of a new user for your email.
13:14 shedges i sent some stuff, slef -- didn't bounce (2 days ago?)
13:15 slef shedges: it must just not like me, then. :-/
13:15 kados someone must hav eforgot to run postalias ;-)
13:15 shaun slef: which one are you?
13:16 slef shaun: MJ Ray (sorry, I forgot to set IRCNAME again)
13:16 shaun aah, i know you now ;-)
13:17 slef Should I be scared and/or watch for the contract killers?
13:17 slef I've got to leave my terminal for a few minutes. Back in 20 or so.
13:23 shaun hehe... i'll be very surprised if this renders properly in IE without tweaking...
14:31 shaun either it was a very long 20 minutes, or slef isn't verbose now.
15:04 shaun kados: you still there? 7PM GMT cuts off the people in New Zealand - that's 7AM in Wellington
15:05 shaun but all the same, 8PM is much better for me ;-)
15:08 owen It doesn't cut them off, it just makes it more inconvenient ;)
15:08 owen Just ask indradg
15:09 shaun hehe... but somehow i doubt whether the people at katipo (russ, rach and chris at least) will want to come into work early...
15:11 owen I'm not saying you're not right about the time being to early, but I think they all telecommute :)
15:15 shaun hehe
15:16 shaun ah, the site is looking beautiful... i will have a first draft of the hp up on my staging server by the meeting, if the time stays the same.
15:16 indradg i should hit the bed... early day at work tomorrow
15:19 slef Didn't notice anyone talking to me. I unset myself /away and then went to cook dinner
15:21 slef Can someone boot "KISS Madeleine \(OPOCE\)" <> from the list until she learns htf to use an autoreply?
15:27 shaun how many international sites do we have now?
15:28 kados how many international sites?
15:29 kados there's slef, paul, and liblime, then there's chris's blog and my blog
15:29 kados if that's what you mean
15:31 shaun well, that makes two true international links, so i'll do a links list
15:31 shaun is your blog a personal one or at liblime?
15:32 indradg slef, u been spew anti-s/w patent vitriol on the list ;)
15:32 indradg s/spew/spewing/
15:33 indradg g'nite folks... i'm off for good!
15:36 kados shaun:
15:36 shaun ah, good old ;)
15:37 shaun i can't remember what the outcome was of that discussion about communal blogging
15:37 kados owen has a blog ... it's just in chech ;-)
15:37 owen Yeah, I wish.
15:38 kados well I think it would be great to have a place on that grabbed our feeds in RSS and displayed them for all to see
15:39 owen In fact I found a a blog entry that linked to me today, and it was all in Czech.  I could barely read a word of it
15:39 shaun thing is, how many devs can be bothered to set up rss feeds?...
15:40 owen kados and chris, so far :)
15:41 kados
15:42 kados hehe
15:42 kados just an idea ;-)
15:42 owen I like the rss-grab idea, kados.
15:43 shaun how about the other way round? i.e. all of the blog posts from each developer are collected in an xml file, and then that developer can choose to mirror it on his/her site
15:44 owen It's possible...but would mean that the central site would have to run the blog software, and each developer would have to have an account
15:44 owen If the rss-grab was doable, it would mean that devs could use whatever software they wanted, provided it had the capability to spit out an xml feed
15:45 kados yep ... that's the approach I'd like to see implemented
15:45 shaun having a central server with the blog software on (separate to kea) is ideal, imo
15:46 kados all would need is an xml parser
15:46 owen shaun: Why do you say that?
15:47 shaun then the blog is a koha blog, as opposed to a developer's blog with some stuff about koha - and it would be easier for devs who have no intention of making blogs just to talk about specific contributions to be part of the community (like me...)
15:48 owen Yeah, that's a good argument.
15:48 kados chris an I use blosxom which means you could just monitor the 'koha' feed
15:48 shaun I don't know how many people read kados' or chris' blog, but I am quite sure people would be more easily persuaded to subscribe to the RSS of a /koha/ blog, which shows general progress, rather than that of an individual developer with their own specialist area and problems
15:49 owen Well sure, but the individual developers' posts would be aggregated into a single offical Koha feed, in the scenario kados and I are envisioning
15:50 shaun Then it could be more like a comfortable. passive medium between IRC and mailing lists - outsiders see what's actually going on.
15:52 shaun it keeps katipo buildings warm.... especially if it uses flatfiles ;-)
15:53 owen ?
15:55 owen I guess shedges and I can't be logged in at the same time from this host :(
15:55 kados must be
15:56 shaun doing the website... have you got any ideas for what navigation categories to use? at the moment I have    *  About
15:56 shaun    * The Product
15:56 shaun    * Get Koha
15:56 shaun    * Support
15:56 shaun    * Documentation
15:56 kados * Demos
15:56 shaun plus links to developers, test drive and downloads at the top
15:56 kados * News
15:56 shaun and links on the side
15:57 kados faq
15:57 shaun and news down the right hand column
15:57 shaun faq, that's the one
15:57 kados how is 'about different than 'the product'?
15:58 shaun hmm, i suppose it could be the disambiguation of "the Koha project" and "the Koha product"
15:59 shaun i.e. about has how it came about, where it is used, while the product focuses on technical specifications, capabilities or features?
15:59 kados I understand the distinction ... but I'm not sure those terms are best to make it
16:00 shaun Just "about" then?
16:01 kados how about 'features'
16:01 kados and 'about the project'
16:01 shaun With the new site, I really want to change the attitude - to make Koha into something that you want to buy for your library and get shocked by the fact that it's free.
16:01 shaun that's good, I'll use that
16:01 kados I agree
16:02 shaun so hence I would like to separate off the developers' stuff - while still keeping it a friendly community.
16:03 kados yep ... it would be good to have a development site and a 'koha marketing' site
16:03 kados let's hold off on this discussion until we have our real discussion -- you can jump start it by bringing it up in reply to my meeting call
16:03 owen So maybe a 'get involved' or 'for developers' link
16:04 shaun this is more stuff that you should know about as RM than stuff specific to the design
16:05 kados there's going to be a lot of overlap at our meetings
16:05 shaun I will keep a "developers" link in the top right-hand corner - and when you go to download it there could be a "You can contribute to Koha..." message
16:07 shaun The developers link should be to do with things like #koha, the mailing lists, CVS, job requests, and of course the blog ;-)
16:07 kados the koha mailing list is for the public
16:07 shaun koha-dev, sorry
16:07 kados right
16:11 shaun how does documentation work? i.e. where does it stay at the moment, where is it going etc.?
16:11 kados all documentation is at
16:12 kados if you want you could do some fancy xml parsing of the docbook and make it look pretty for the main site
16:12 shaun so documentation would be better placed as a link, rather than a section of the site then...
16:12 kados kinda like the mysql documentation
16:12 kados for now ... unless you want to get fancy
16:12 shaun but the site will use kea...
16:13 kados whaat are you using kea for?
16:13 shaun idinno, but the katipo people do
16:14 owen shaun, have you talked to Russel about all this?
16:14 shaun I would use good old php/mysql myself, but kea will be the choice i suppose... if the magic is all done at katipo
16:15 shaun no - russel is inconveniently at the opposite time zone to me...
16:15 kados email ;-)
16:16 owen shaun, all your plans aren't going anywhere if you don't get in touch with Russel, I'm guessing.
16:16 owen Spooky.
16:16 shaun hi russ
16:16 shaun uncanny...
16:16 russ morning
16:17 kados russ must have been tipped of by someone at katipo
16:17 shaun the design is beautiful, russ... but i suppose that's a matter of opinion
16:18 shaun so, can we talk about kea?
16:18 russ yeah si tipped me off :-)
16:18 russ yep sure
16:18 russ i have to go in about 20 mins though
16:18 russ to do some kea training for clients, as it happens
16:19 shaun I'm not sure how kea works... 'spose you don't do free copies ;)
16:19 russ ah we would love to be in a posistion to open source kea
16:20 russ but it doesnt have a simple installer that you can run
16:20 owen shaun, start with "I'm interested in helping out with the site?" ;)
16:20 russ and we need to do some tidying up on it
16:20 shaun what language is it in?
16:20 shaun I'm interested in helping out with the site. Very, very interested.
16:20 russ ok cool
16:21 russ what is your skill set shaun - i am a web developer / designer how has migrated into project management
16:21 russ s/how/who
16:22 kados russ: is that the only reason it's not open source? ;-)
16:22 russ no you'd have top ask chris more on that one
16:23 russ crikey you can tell i havent had a coffee this morning - my typing is lousy
16:23 chris kados: its an inhouse project, and as such has all the problems inherent with that
16:23 kados gotcha
16:23 chris basically its never been released
16:24 russ on reflection we should have open sourced it 3-4 years ago
16:24 russ but anyway...
16:24 chris so its a bit of a mess :)
16:24 shaun I started out in design, I do web development now too - php is my first language, then english, and im learning perl for the purpose of koha. my open source experience includes contributor to apache forrest and leader of fles.
16:24 russ cool
16:26 russ ok so where to start i guess
16:26 shaun I was also doing the redesign for a while... but stopped because they are all closed-minded b******s
16:26 russ if you want to read some stuff about kea, we have broucherware type stuff on the katipo website
16:27 russ[…]gement/index.html
16:27 russ and we have online tutorials
16:27 russ
16:27 shaun yes, i have read through all of that - I am interested in the tech specs - how templates are integrated, how it manages content and what formats it uses etc.
16:28 kados chris: is kea built off html::template?
16:29 russ before we go too far down this path - we here at katipo aren't too fussy about continuing to use kea
16:29 chris not really no
16:30 shaun what could we use?
16:30 kados i like html::template
16:30 kados ;-)
16:30 shaun my personal opinion: PHP/MySQL all the way...
16:30 kados that's what the liblime site uses
16:30 russ i'd have to talk to chris about other systems
16:30 shaun what are the advantages of using kea?
16:31 chris tons
16:31 shaun hehe... carry on
16:31 chris you have a live site and edit site
16:31 russ i think we better do up an email to the list
16:31 chris changes you make dont go live until you trigger them
16:31 chris its backended by cvs
16:31 russ it generates real html pages so proper urls
16:31 chris so you can revert to any version of any page
16:32 shaun so as the backend does it use xml?
16:32 russ you can set up page reviews to remind you that you need to go and check a page
16:32 chris no
16:32 shaun what does it use?
16:32 kados sounds sweet
16:32 chris whatever the file is
16:32 kados I like the cvs backend
16:32 chris html, pdf, etc
16:32 shaun so how do you do templating?
16:33 chris with a mysql database to track the files and cvs
16:33 chris you build some kea templates
16:33 russ we use html pages constructed with ssi
16:33 chris and when you choose in kea to create a new page, you choose which template
16:33 russ it also has some smart tags that do things like navigation and breadcrumbs for you
16:34 chris what?
16:35 chris im not sure what you mean shaun
16:35 shaun nvm, regionalised joke
16:36 shaun so can kea manage multiple sites (e.g. "sales" and developer sites)?
16:36 chris its managing about 70 sites at the moment
16:36 russ something like 300 users
16:36 russ by user i mean content editors
16:37 owen Man, to heck with open-sourcing this thing.  Sounds like you need to sell it! ;)
16:37 shaun I meant, like subdomains...,
16:37 chris yep thats no problem shaun
16:37 chris having talked kea up, i also think would be a good site to try opencms on
16:38 russ yeah like i said before - we are keen to try something else
16:38 russ and opencms looks pretty cool
16:38 shaun and can particular parts be dynamic by themselves, e.g. or which use a separate php system, for example? and, even better, can kea grab dynamic content from another system with a database backend? (i suppose that asks a bit much)
16:39 russ well cos you have two websites
16:40 russ you can have kea triggering to the sales website and then if you want other stuff installed on the live site you can do that
16:40 russ for all our dynamic stuff - like koha for example
16:40 russ we store the template files in a kea site so that we can roll back and manage who is editing them
16:41 shaun hmm... i have been blind so far, concentrating on the design - should i assume that the cms will be able to cope?
16:41 russ but i think if a website redesign is what everyone is after
16:41 russ then dont worry about the cms
16:41 russ yeah that is always our approach shaun
16:41 russ our designer is not a technical person at all
16:41 slef uh
16:42 slef blogs
16:42 shaun excellent
16:42 shaun blogs... yes
16:42 slef did no-one want me to set up an otherwayup aggregator of them?
16:42 shaun russ and chris, have you seen the logs for today (this morning for you)?
16:42 russ no sorry - i have been watching the british lions play the pumas (rugby) :-)
16:43 slef otherwayup is running schycyroll/mabloss, which I know is theoretically sound in its blog calculus
16:43 shaun owen I like the rss-grab idea, kados.
16:43 shaun shaun how about the other way round? i.e. all of the blog posts from each developer are collected in an xml file, and then that developer can choose to mirror it on his/her site
16:43 shaun owen It's possible...but would mean that the central site would have to run the blog software, and each developer would have to have an account
16:43 shaun owen If the rss-grab was doable, it would mean that devs could use whatever software they wanted, provided it had the capability to spit out an xml feed
16:43 shaun kados yep ... that's the approach I'd like to see implemented
16:43 shaun shaun having a central server with the blog software on (separate to kea) is ideal, imo
16:43 shaun kados all would need is an xml parser
16:43 shaun owen shaun: Why do you say that?
16:43 shaun shaun then the blog is a koha blog, as opposed to a developer's blog with some stuff about koha - and it would be easier for devs who have no intention of making blogs just to talk about specific contributions to be part of the community (like me...)
16:43 shaun owen Yeah, that's a good argument.
16:43 shaun * owen wonders if it could be both at once...
16:43 shaun kados chris an I use blosxom which means you could just monitor the 'koha' feed
16:43 shaun shaun I don't know how many people read kados' or chris' blog, but I am quite sure people would be more easily persuaded to subscribe to the RSS of a /koha/ blog, which shows general progress, rather than that of an individual developer with their own specialist area and problems
16:43 slef it can accept RDF Site Summary and (at a push) Really Simple Syndication
16:43 shaun owen Well sure, but the individual developers' posts would be aggregated into a single offical Koha feed, in the scenario kados and I are envisioning
16:44 slef shaun: paste error
16:44 shaun sorry!
16:44 shaun russ: wdyt?
16:48 russ sorry guys i have to go
16:48 russ i'll be back in a couple of hours and read the logs
16:48 shaun ok bye russ, i'll be gone by then though
16:50 shaun I'm off to bed
16:50 shaun bye all
16:50 kados cya
16:59 rach morning
16:59 kados morning rach
16:59 kados is that time slot too early for you?
17:00 kados I got my NZ time confused by an hour
17:00 rach it'll be 7am
17:00 rach so not too bad
17:00 rach just might not be too coherant until the cafine kicks in :-)
17:00 kados cool
17:00 kados :-)
17:01 shedges hi rach
17:01 rach hi stephen
17:01 rach it's good - should be all done by the time the phone starts ringing here around 9am
17:28 rach morning rosalie
17:39 rosa hi rach
17:39 rosa 7am meeting??
17:39 rach yerg
17:39 rach lucky it's a 2 min commute and we don't have web cams here :-)
17:40 rosa :-)
19:02 kados chris around?
19:02 chris slightly
19:02 kados I"m working on this Koha install and I've run into something I've not seen before ... I"ve ot Options +FollowSymLinks in my koha.conf file but I'm getting the error: ymbolic link not allowed:
19:02 kados yikes on the spelling ;-)
19:03 kados any ideas?
19:03 chris you have <Location />
19:03 chris Options +FollowSymLinks
19:03 chris </Location>
19:03 chris ?
19:03 kados ahh ... that must be it
19:03 chris might not be
19:03 kados it's lilnked to a directory?
19:04 kados I thought it was a virtualhost setting
19:04 chris you usually define it for a location or a directory
19:04 chris (it works on all below as well of course)
19:04 chris so <Directory /usr/local/koha/intranet/htdocs>
19:04 chris would be another way .. at least thats the habit im in
19:05 kados cool thanks
19:05 chris lemme know if it works
19:05 chris i just go for the easy answer first :)
19:07 kados <Directory /var/www/koha22>
19:07 kados Options +FollowSymLinks
19:07 kados </Directory>
19:07 kados still get the same error
19:07 chris maybe ur not allowed to override
19:08 kados ahh ... that would be in the main httpd.conf
19:08 chris yeah
19:08 chris worht checking
19:09 kados <Directory />
19:09 kados    Options FollowSymLinks
19:09 kados    AllowOverride none
19:09 kados </Directory>
19:09 kados that's in the main httpd.conf
19:09 kados I changed it to 'all' and it still gives me the error after restarting apache
19:09 chris hmm dunno whats up then sorry
19:10 kados ta
19:27 kados I found the problem
19:27 kados really strange
19:28 kados my symlinked dirs were linnked to dirs in /root
19:28 kados apparantly someone didn't like that ;-)
19:28 kados and it wasn't selinux cause that's disabled
19:35 chris cool
19:35 kados Bristol said they would move to Koha if they could get rid of itsmarc
19:35 kados i said that Koha's cataloging tools aren't up to par (cause they aren'tfor MARC)
19:36 kados but it might not take much to get them there
19:36 chris nope
19:36 kados (and the state might sponser it)
19:36 chris just a nicer interface
19:36 kados yep
19:37 kados it looks like they maintain their own mirrors of free databases
19:38 kados I don't see an ITSMARC- database
19:44 kados plucene note: we could have an index on 'shelf location' and automatically launch a search for nearby items for each of the results
19:44 chris hmm yeah
19:45 chris i was thinking that plucene will be most useful stuff that doesnt change
19:45 chris frequently
19:45 chris so no item based fields
19:45 chris if that makes sense
19:45 kados yep
19:45 chris we dont want to tell someone something is on the shelf when its just been loaned out
19:45 kados I agree ... unless there's some really fast way to do indexes that's undocumented
19:45 kados also ... it's kinda pokey
19:46 kados (15 minutes till I optimize the index
19:46 chris so query plucene for biblio data
19:46 kados (then we can do real tests)
19:46 chris and then once u have a bunch of biblionumbers
19:46 chris u can find out item stuff
19:47 kados exactly
19:47 kados chris do you think I could just run optimize without rebuilding the inde?
19:49 chris yeah i reckon so
19:50 chris not sure how tho :)
19:50 chris 2 secs
19:50 chris man will tell me
19:50 chris my $writer = Plucene::Index::Writer->new($path, $analyser, $creat
19:50 chris e);
19:50 chris       This will create a new Plucene::Index::Writer object.
19:50 chris       The third argument to the constructor determines whether a new index is
19:50 chris       created, or whether an existing index is opened for the addition of new
19:51 chris       documents.
19:51 chris so i reckon
19:51 kados ahh ... so 1 is create
19:51 chris yep
19:51 chris and im guessing 0 is use existing
19:51 kados ok ... I'll give it a shot
19:54 shedges kados:  Bristol could keep their Bibliofile software for a fraction of the cost of the complete ITSMarc.
19:54 kados well ... it's doing something ;-)
19:54 kados what kind of fraction?
19:54 kados :-)
19:54 shedges I'd have to look at the numbers for NPL
19:54 shedges I think it's about 1/10
19:54 kados would their cataloging workflow be affected? (I really need to talk with the catalogers someday soon)
19:55 kados well that would probably do it
19:55 chris thats a goodly saving
19:55 shedges right, 'cause they've already done what Bristol wants to do!
19:55 kados Bibliofile is TLS?
19:56 shedges yep
19:56 kados TLC even?
19:56 shedges (the old name)
19:56 kados so ITSMARC is just a TCL-maintained database ... the library can still use Bibliofile to access free sources
19:56 kados it's amazing how many libraries are falling for this ;-)
19:56 shedges They don't advertise that you can still buy a license for just Bibliofile
19:57 shedges You need BookWhere to grab records, but that's cheap.
19:57 kados maybe we should set up a mirrored database of LOC and some other large Z39.50 databases and charge to access it ;-)
19:57 shedges Bibliofile is the MARC editor / saver
19:57 kados ahh
19:57 kados gotcha
19:57 kados brb ... dinner overheating ;-)
19:58 shedges if only there was a way to speed up Koha's cataloging...
19:59 shedges (biab)
20:23 shedges kados:  I remember now that WebClarity Software (the BookWhere people) also have started offering a MARC editor that can be added to BookWhere --[…]/marcnotepad.html
21:05 dean2 Richard, you there?
21:06 dean2
21:06 dean2
21:06 chris dean .. wrong channel
21:06 chris u want to be over in #katipo :)
21:06 dean2 lol
21:07 dean2 oops
21:50 kados well after the optimize I think it's faster
21:50 kados http://search.athenscounty.lib[…]h.cgi?query=bears
21:50 kados but still not fast enough
22:17 kados chris: from the lucene list I'm getting the feeling the plucene is not as fast as lucene ... I may try to install the java version and see how that works
22:22 chris i suspect that will make integration quite a bit harder
22:24 chris but it might be worth it if the speed is a big improvement
22:24 chris i reckon u can still halve the speed by not handing the template all the results
22:24 chris sorry double the speed
22:25 kados right ... but even with a small result set searches are taking 4 secs ... I was hoping for instant searching like with google
22:25 chris right
22:25 kados we're only talking about 150,000 items here
22:25 chris yep
22:25 kados we should be able to return stuff really fast
22:25 chris hmm
22:26 chris there is all sorts of overhead
22:27 chris and google have some serious hardware and an algortithm they wont tell anyone about
22:27 chris its a good aim .. but will be hard to achieve
22:27 chris 2 seconds id be happy with
22:29 indradg kados, chris : wat exactly are u planning with a plucene / lucene  search?
22:29 chris im not really planning anything ye
22:29 chris t
22:29 chris just exploring possibilities
22:29 indradg sorry if I dont make sense... just woke up and yet to have my first cup of tea :P
22:30 kados right ... indradg have you seen my arguments for switching our search engine from SLQ to textual?
22:30 indradg right
22:30 chris i dont know if thats even the way to go too
22:30 chris it may be that we need to build special search tables
22:30 kados[…]rmnotes#searching
22:30 kados right ...
22:30 chris basically we want to speed up searching
22:31 kados and add functionality
22:31 chris and we are looking for any ideas on how to do it
22:31 kados boolian, etc.
22:31 chris yep
22:31 chris add features while not slowing down
22:31 kados we need a KOha search syntax
22:31 chris i could do boolean tomorrow, but searches would take longer .. thats the problem
22:31 indradg have u tried out Namazu ?
22:31 chris i havent
22:32 indradg do check it out... in case you are looking at full-text indexing
22:33 chris its a tricky one
22:33 chris and what makes it tricky to do in sql is like '%something'
22:33 chris since as soon as you do that
22:33 kados no indexes
22:33 chris bang mysql cant use an index
22:34 chris and unfortunately patrons never remember the names of authors and books properly ;)
22:34 chris if we could do author='something'
22:34 chris no problem :)
22:35 chris joshua, u might know this
22:35 chris in marc_word
22:35 chris is author split up?
22:35 chris chris,cormack
22:35 chris becomes 2 rows
22:35 kados yep
22:35 chris right
22:35 kados so we need to do a join
22:35 kados and that's costly
22:36 chris oh its split over 2 tables?
22:36 kados no ... but you need a join to do two terms
22:36 chris you do?
22:36 chris im thinking
22:36 kados :-)
22:36 chris i type
22:36 chris chris cormack
22:37 indradg i'm using Namazu for a full-text indexed search through about 25 GBs of autofs-mounted ISO images which are linked to 856u field in my catalog
22:37 kados well you can't do select from marc_word where tagsubfield=245a and value=chris and value=cormack
22:37 chris ahh theres no ordering involved?
22:37 kados you need to join on the same table
22:37 chris yikes
22:37 kados ordering?
22:37 chris thats a big table
22:37 kados yep ... it's huge
22:38 chris and then u double it
22:38 kados yep
22:38 kados or triple
22:38 kados etc.
22:38 chris i was thinking it was 245a 1 and 245a 2
22:38 indradg hmmm
22:38 kados nope
22:38 chris suck
22:39 chris if it was you could do it with ors and  and
22:39 kados it gets even more complicated with the 'see also'
22:40 kados so you normally just do 245a ... but there's a bunch more places author can be stored in MARC
22:40 chris ((tagsubfield=245a and order=1 and value=chris) or (tagsubfield=245a and order=2 and value=chris)) and ((tagsubfield=245a and order=1 and value=cormack) or (tagsubfield=245a and order=1 and value=cormack))
22:40 chris somethign like that
22:40 kados and you don't want to miss any of them
22:40 chris yeah
22:40 chris we should look at namazu
22:40 chris 25gb is a lot
22:40 chris is it fast indradg ?
22:41 kados hehe
22:41 indradg chris, yep!
22:42 kados it's got deb packages too ;-)
22:42 indradg the initial index creation is a bit of a killer.... too abt 6 hrs or so to finish... so I left it on as an over-night job and went home ;)
22:43 indradg s/too/took/
22:43 chris right
22:44 kados indradg: so you've integrated this with Koha already?
22:44 chris id expect that .. my theory is that if you want fast searches building hte indexes will take time
22:44 indradg kados, not really... I integrated the namazu cgi interface into my CMS frontend to the library
22:45 kados can we try it out somewhere?
22:52 kados chris:[…]s/benchmarks.html
22:54 kados it's entirely possible that the reason it takes google so long to update is that it's index is running thw hole time ;-)
22:54 kados whole even ;-)
22:54 kados rankings that is ... not new stuff
22:54 chris yeah
23:00 kados huh ... wikipedia uses lucene
23:23 indradg kados, got disconnected... did u get my last msg
23:24 kados indradg: no
23:24 indradg indradg kados, try this ->
23:24 indradg indradg CSS is screwed up at the moment
23:24 indradg indradg and use the ICONIP repository and u can search on genes, algorithms, gene expression, genome, artificial intelligence
23:26 kados that's the kind of speed I'm talking about!
23:26 kados so could you send me your indexer?
23:27 kados (and the cgi too)
23:27 indradg brb... on oh
23:27 indradg ph
23:27 kados k
23:36 indradg back
23:38 kados cool
23:38 indradg kados, i haven't done anything extra in this demo ... d/led Namazu, dumped a CD full of documents, used the cmd-line indexer of Namazu, put the CGI script in the place u want and bingo! ur search engine is ready, sans any customization
23:38 kados right
23:38 kados so we'd have to dump out the titles into files right?
23:38 indradg yes
23:39 kados I wonder if we can put 150,000 files in one directory
23:39 chris be worth looking at the docs
23:39 indradg yep
23:39 kados and how does it know 'title' 'author' 'date' etc?
23:39 kados were the files XML?
23:40 chris rtfm :)
23:40 kados :-)
23:40 indradg nope... the files in my case are pdfs and rpms
23:40 chris i havent had the chance to say that for ages :)
23:40 kados hehe
23:40 indradg namazu will index thru the text desc in RPM  headers as well
23:40 chris thats cool
23:41 indradg we might need a marc file indexer
23:41 chris im hoping there is a framework you can use to build a harverster that it can use to index
23:41 chris yeah
23:41 indradg but what is for ? ;)
23:43 chris Document filters
23:43 chris mknmz automatically identifies target file types and performs the appropriate document filtering. For HTML documents, filtering includes the extraction of <title> or the deletion of HTML tags. The filtering is dealt with by document filters in $(datadir)/$(PACKAGE)/filter. The standard document filters are described below.
23:43 chris so we could use kohas export to marc feature
23:43 chris and then write a marc filter perhaps
23:43 kados I think there's a MARC2XML somewhere out there
23:44 kados if that would make it easier
23:44 kados I"ve really got to get some sleep ;-)
23:44 kados indradg: thanks for the tips
23:44 indradg np :)
23:44 chris night kados
23:45 indradg nite kados
23:45 rach nite
23:45 kados g'nite all
02:38 paul (hdl, tu m'appelles en visio ?)
02:38 hdl hi
02:40 michael bonjour ;-)
02:44 michael j'aurais une contribution à proposer concernant Koha
02:44 michael une contribution typiquement "discothécaire" il s'agit d'une "liste d'autorité"
02:44 michael il serait possible que je la saisisse afin qu'elle puisse être réutilisable après coup par des BM
02:46 michael ... il s'agit de l'index PCDM 4 qui est utilisé dans le champ 686 pour indexer les docs sonores musicaux
02:46 michael http://discothecaires.ouvaton.[…]hp3?id_article=74
02:46 michael cette index PCDM 4 = Principe de Classification des Documents Musicaux version 4
02:46 michael est présent dans le livre "pro" Musiques en bibliothèques (éd. Cercle de la Librairie)
02:47 michael je ne veux pas vous importuner mais je me disais que si qqn (moi en l'occurence) pouvait saisir cette liste fermée
02:47 michael et l'exporter sous forme .sql ça pourrait franchement faire gagner du temps à d'autres bibliothèques qui souhaiteraient indexer leurs fonds de docs sonores
02:47 michael avec cette indexation PCDM 4... vous voyez où je veux en venir?
02:47 michael ou je suis pas clair du tout ?
02:48 michael la PCDM4 est comme une Dewey bcp moins complexe mais adpatée aux docs sonores
02:51 michael cette liste pourrait être saisie là : ../admin/
02:51 michael et si elle est exportable en .sql c'est royal ;-)
02:51 michael après i faut "l'associer" au champ UNIMARC 686... et elle est full-fonctionnelle
02:58 michael bieng... je pars au travail... je vais voir si c'est vraiment viable comme idée et pense le proposer sur la liste ?
02:58 michael bon courage pour cette semaine ;-)
03:19 hdl paul, on m'a dit qu'un mémoire avait été fait à Bordeaux mis en ligne sur Wikipédia et qui parle de Koha de façon élogieuse et développée. Tu savais ?
03:19 paul non.
03:19 hdl on = fr. Vianney
03:20 hdl et que Linux Pratique y avait consacré un article.
03:20 hdl C'est pour ajouter au Linux Today de S Hedges.
03:22 hdl Au fait, il y a des lists bibliothèques Fr auxquelles il faut que je m'abonne... Tu peux m'indiquer lesquelles ?
03:23 paul je trouve pas sur wikipedia
03:23 paul[…]iblioth%C3%A8ques
03:23 paul ADBS-INFOS
03:23 paul et biblio-fr
03:23 paul et puis il y a
03:24 paul (tenu par nicolas Morin, entre autres)
03:24 Sylvain hdl tu as eu le lien avant que je ne sois déconnecté ?
03:31 Sylvain ??
03:34 paul (rien vu)
03:34 paul (sylvain)
03:35 Sylvain[…]_en_documentation pour le mémoire de Sébastien Thébault, je pense que c'est cleui dont tu parlais (tu l'as peut être trouvé depuis ...)
03:44 hdl merci sylvain.
03:50 hdl n'est pas référencé sur
04:08 rach bonjou - what is "Diffusion de contenu en ligne"
04:08 rach[…]%25C3%25A9vidents
04:08 rach and only the wiki has it
04:09 si Diffusion of contents on line
04:10 si is what babelfish has to say
04:10 rach yes I got that - but what do you think it means?
04:10 si but I suspect that doesn't help a great deal
04:10 Sylvain It seems to be the ability for users to publish themselves
04:10 si that was what I was going to guess
04:10 Sylvain it would be correct as only mediawiki gets the cross for it
04:10 si sbstitute distribution for diffusion
04:10 Sylvain s/would/should
04:10 rach ah yes
04:12 rach ta
07:41 kados hello all
08:34 paul hi kados (perfect french in your mail to infos ;-) )
08:40 kados thanks ;-)
09:37 slef can someone set a text colour on the irc logs, please?
09:37 slef yellow on yellow is a bit hard to read :-/
09:54 kados[…]xisbn/default.htm
09:55 owen What's the ISBN problem?
09:55 kados well like with amazon content ... if we don't have the exact edition that amazon has we can't display their content for the item (even if it's the same 'biblio')
09:56 kados xISBN finds all 'related' ISBNs given one ISBN
09:56 owen So you could list similar versions of a book when looking at the detail screen
09:56 kados right
09:57 kados there are lots of possibilities ...
09:57 kados this is one of those things that I was going to start myself (that I probably would never have gotten around to)
09:58 kados kinda like my idea for the P2P cataloging software with integrated MARC editior ;-)
09:58 owen Yeah, written in XUL!
09:58 kados there's an idea I had what ... like 5 years ago
09:58 kados yea .. XUL would be the way to go ;-)
09:59 owen slef: I don't see any yellow on yellow in the logs
10:01 hdl paul : Pour les grilles, ca yest, j'affiche cela dans le Mais je voudrais utiliser un tableau pour faire apparaître cela dans la même ligne que le login. Mais le tableau me donne automatiquement des bordures, même quand je les paramètres à 0... !
10:01 paul commite en l'état, je regarderai
10:07 Sylvain Little question : what is for you the best way to store titles of a cd for example or novels in a book in order to help the search for member ?
10:08 owen Doesn't a keyword search pick these up if they're in a notes field?
10:08 Sylvain er maybe, in fact it's a question which has been asked to me, I've never done cataloguing so I was looking for an idea
10:08 Sylvain ;)
10:09 Sylvain I'm going to have a look at note field
10:10 owen One of the problems we ran into was that the notes weren't displayed by the details screen.
10:11 Sylvain :( it is less intersting then ...
10:15 owen Sylvain: I'm wrong--it looks like 2.2 displays all the notes correctly
10:15 owen http://search.athenscounty.lib[…]
10:16 Sylvain ok, thanks a lot, seems to be a good answer for my custoer
10:16 Sylvain +m
10:20 owen friendly time-zone-appropriate greeting, shaun!
10:21 shaun hi (it works all the time)
10:23 shaun darn... rach joined about 8 minutes after I left last night...
10:25 Sylvain 2.2.3 roadmap seems intersting paul :)
10:25 paul ;-)
10:26 Sylvain 2 times I try writing interesting in 3 lines and two times I miss it :)
10:27 shaun is there anybody knowledgeable/authoritative about the new site's launch date? I was thinking about making it accompany 2.4 - make it something big
10:28 shaun get slashdotted ;-)
10:31 owen I guess it all depends on when you finish it, shaun ;)
10:32 shaun the concept art consists of quite a bit of stuff advertising the 2.4 release
10:37 slef owen: it's actually default-on-yellow, but my default text colour is yellow-on-navy (easier to read, usually).
10:59 hdl Paul : Pourquoi ne pas permettre de lier des types d'éléments à des fwk pour aider à la saisie ?? On aurait un élément Type dans les biblio_Framework et on l'ajouterait automatiquement au 686 a ou autre champ MARC type de document...? Une idée en passant.
11:00 paul on me l'a déjà suggéré, hdl ;-) (à voir plus tard, sur la 2.4, vu que ca change la BD)
11:17 hdl OK paul. Pour obtenir la valeur d'une liste de choix <Select> dans une page HTML, on fait comment ?
11:28 hdl Kados, how do you use a selected value in the same HTML page ? Does One HAS TO use a Javascript ? Or Can you get the vaule with an HTML Trick ?
11:28 owen hdl, what do you mean? (I think kados is away from his computer)
11:32 hdl One has a select choice to make in an HTML page,
11:33 hdl For Instance, Mr or Mrs, Can I make the value appear elsewhere in th HTML Page... without using Javascript ....
11:33 owen No.  You've got to use Javascript.
11:34 hdl Thanks for playing anyway.
11:34 hdl ;)
11:34 owen Why not use Javascript?
11:34 hdl While saying this, it seemed so Obvious.
11:35 hdl I didn't want to make too many little Javascript Functions.
11:35 hdl Sorry.
11:35 owen Yeah, I know what you mean.
11:41 hdl Moreover, I am touching Code within buttons and didn't want to break anything !!!

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