Time Nick Message 11:41 hdl Moreover, I am touching Code within buttons and didn't want to break anything !!! 11:35 owen Yeah, I know what you mean. 11:35 hdl Sorry. 11:35 hdl I didn't want to make too many little Javascript Functions. 11:34 hdl While saying this, it seemed so Obvious. 11:34 owen Why not use Javascript? 11:34 hdl ;) 11:34 hdl Thanks for playing anyway. 11:33 owen No. You've got to use Javascript. 11:33 hdl For Instance, Mr or Mrs, Can I make the value appear elsewhere in th HTML Page... without using Javascript .... 11:32 hdl One has a select choice to make in an HTML page, 11:28 owen hdl, what do you mean? (I think kados is away from his computer) 11:28 hdl Kados, how do you use a selected value in the same HTML page ? Does One HAS TO use a Javascript ? Or Can you get the vaule with an HTML Trick ? 11:17 hdl OK paul. Pour obtenir la valeur d'une liste de choix <Select> dans une page HTML, on fait comment ? 11:00 paul on me l'a déjà suggéré, hdl ;-) (à voir plus tard, sur la 2.4, vu que ca change la BD) 10:59 hdl Paul : Pourquoi ne pas permettre de lier des types d'éléments à des fwk pour aider à la saisie ?? On aurait un élément Type dans les biblio_Framework et on l'ajouterait automatiquement au 686 a ou autre champ MARC type de document...? Une idée en passant. 10:37 slef owen: it's actually default-on-yellow, but my default text colour is yellow-on-navy (easier to read, usually). 10:32 shaun the concept art consists of quite a bit of stuff advertising the 2.4 release 10:31 owen I guess it all depends on when you finish it, shaun ;) 10:28 shaun get slashdotted ;-) 10:27 shaun is there anybody knowledgeable/authoritative about the new site's launch date? I was thinking about making it accompany 2.4 - make it something big 10:26 Sylvain 2 times I try writing interesting in 3 lines and two times I miss it :) 10:25 paul ;-) 10:25 Sylvain 2.2.3 roadmap seems intersting paul :) 10:23 shaun darn... rach joined about 8 minutes after I left last night... 10:21 shaun hi (it works all the time) 10:20 owen friendly time-zone-appropriate greeting, shaun! 10:16 Sylvain +m 10:16 Sylvain ok, thanks a lot, seems to be a good answer for my custoer 10:15 owen http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?bib=143335 10:15 owen Sylvain: I'm wrong--it looks like 2.2 displays all the notes correctly 10:11 Sylvain :( it is less intersting then ... 10:10 owen One of the problems we ran into was that the notes weren't displayed by the details screen. 10:09 Sylvain I'm going to have a look at note field 10:08 Sylvain ;) 10:08 Sylvain er maybe, in fact it's a question which has been asked to me, I've never done cataloguing so I was looking for an idea 10:08 owen Doesn't a keyword search pick these up if they're in a notes field? 10:07 Sylvain Little question : what is for you the best way to store titles of a cd for example or novels in a book in order to help the search for member ? 10:01 paul commite en l'état, je regarderai 10:01 hdl paul : Pour les grilles, ca yest, j'affiche cela dans le mar_top.inc. Mais je voudrais utiliser un tableau pour faire apparaître cela dans la même ligne que le login. Mais le tableau me donne automatiquement des bordures, même quand je les paramètres à 0... ! 09:59 owen slef: I don't see any yellow on yellow in the logs 09:58 kados yea .. XUL would be the way to go ;-) 09:58 kados there's an idea I had what ... like 5 years ago 09:58 owen Yeah, written in XUL! 09:58 kados kinda like my idea for the P2P cataloging software with integrated MARC editior ;-) 09:57 kados this is one of those things that I was going to start myself (that I probably would never have gotten around to) 09:57 kados there are lots of possibilities ... 09:56 kados right 09:56 owen So you could list similar versions of a book when looking at the detail screen 09:56 kados xISBN finds all 'related' ISBNs given one ISBN 09:55 kados well like with amazon content ... if we don't have the exact edition that amazon has we can't display their content for the item (even if it's the same 'biblio') 09:55 owen What's the ISBN problem? 09:54 kados http://www.oclc.org/research/projects/xisbn/default.htm 09:37 slef yellow on yellow is a bit hard to read :-/ 09:37 slef can someone set a text colour on the irc logs, please? 08:40 kados thanks ;-) 08:34 paul hi kados (perfect french in your mail to infos ;-) ) 07:41 kados hello all 04:12 rach ta 04:10 rach ah yes 04:10 Sylvain s/would/should 04:10 si sbstitute distribution for diffusion 04:10 Sylvain it would be correct as only mediawiki gets the cross for it 04:10 si that was what I was going to guess 04:10 Sylvain It seems to be the ability for users to publish themselves 04:10 si but I suspect that doesn't help a great deal 04:10 rach yes I got that - but what do you think it means? 04:10 si is what babelfish has to say 04:09 si Diffusion of contents on line 04:08 rach and only the wiki has it 04:08 rach http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=fr%7Cen&u=http://wikisource.org/wiki/Les_logiciels_libres_en_documentation-_II-Apr%25C3%25A8s_utilisation%25C2%25A0:_des_manques_%25C3%25A9vidents 04:08 rach bonjou - what is "Diffusion de contenu en ligne" 03:50 hdl biblioacid.org n'est pas référencé sur Google.fr 03:44 hdl merci sylvain. 03:35 Sylvain http://wikisource.org/wiki/Les_logiciels_libres_en_documentation pour le mémoire de Sébastien Thébault, je pense que c'est cleui dont tu parlais (tu l'as peut être trouvé depuis ...) 03:34 paul (sylvain) 03:34 paul (rien vu) 03:31 Sylvain ?? 03:24 Sylvain hdl tu as eu le lien avant que je ne sois déconnecté ? 03:24 paul (tenu par nicolas Morin, entre autres) 03:23 paul et puis il y a biblioacid.org 03:23 paul et biblio-fr 03:23 paul ADBS-INFOS 03:23 paul http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Sciences_de_l%27information_et_des_biblioth%C3%A8ques 03:23 paul je trouve pas sur wikipedia 03:22 hdl Au fait, il y a des lists bibliothèques Fr auxquelles il faut que je m'abonne... Tu peux m'indiquer lesquelles ? 03:20 hdl C'est pour ajouter au Linux Today de S Hedges. 03:20 hdl et que Linux Pratique y avait consacré un article. 03:19 hdl on = fr. Vianney 03:19 paul non. 03:19 hdl paul, on m'a dit qu'un mémoire avait été fait à Bordeaux mis en ligne sur Wikipédia et qui parle de Koha de façon élogieuse et développée. Tu savais ? 02:58 michael bon courage pour cette semaine ;-) 02:58 michael bieng... je pars au travail... je vais voir si c'est vraiment viable comme idée et pense le proposer sur la liste ? 02:51 michael après i faut "l'associer" au champ UNIMARC 686... et elle est full-fonctionnelle 02:51 michael et si elle est exportable en .sql c'est royal ;-) 02:51 michael cette liste pourrait être saisie là : ../admin/authorised_values.pl 02:48 michael la PCDM4 est comme une Dewey bcp moins complexe mais adpatée aux docs sonores 02:47 michael ou je suis pas clair du tout ? 02:47 michael avec cette indexation PCDM 4... vous voyez où je veux en venir? 02:47 michael et l'exporter sous forme .sql ça pourrait franchement faire gagner du temps à d'autres bibliothèques qui souhaiteraient indexer leurs fonds de docs sonores 02:47 michael je ne veux pas vous importuner mais je me disais que si qqn (moi en l'occurence) pouvait saisir cette liste fermée 02:46 michael est présent dans le livre "pro" Musiques en bibliothèques (éd. Cercle de la Librairie) 02:46 michael cette index PCDM 4 = Principe de Classification des Documents Musicaux version 4 02:46 michael http://discothecaires.ouvaton.org/article.php3?id_article=74 02:46 michael ... il s'agit de l'index PCDM 4 qui est utilisé dans le champ 686 pour indexer les docs sonores musicaux 02:44 michael il serait possible que je la saisisse afin qu'elle puisse être réutilisable après coup par des BM 02:44 michael une contribution typiquement "discothécaire" il s'agit d'une "liste d'autorité" 02:44 michael j'aurais une contribution à proposer concernant Koha 02:40 michael bonjour ;-) 02:38 hdl hi 02:38 paul (hdl, tu m'appelles en visio ?) 23:45 kados g'nite all 23:45 rach nite 23:45 indradg nite kados 23:44 chris night kados 23:44 indradg np :) 23:44 kados indradg: thanks for the tips 23:44 kados I"ve really got to get some sleep ;-) 23:44 kados if that would make it easier 23:43 kados I think there's a MARC2XML somewhere out there 23:43 chris and then write a marc filter perhaps 23:43 chris so we could use kohas export to marc feature 23:43 chris mknmz automatically identifies target file types and performs the appropriate document filtering. For HTML documents, filtering includes the extraction of <title> or the deletion of HTML tags. The filtering is dealt with by document filters in $(datadir)/$(PACKAGE)/filter. The standard document filters are described below. 23:43 chris Document filters 23:41 indradg but what is MARC.pm for ? ;) 23:41 chris yeah 23:41 chris im hoping there is a framework you can use to build a harverster that it can use to index 23:41 indradg we might need a marc file indexer 23:40 chris thats cool 23:40 indradg namazu will index thru the text desc in RPM headers as well 23:40 kados hehe 23:40 chris i havent had the chance to say that for ages :) 23:40 indradg nope... the files in my case are pdfs and rpms 23:40 kados :-) 23:40 chris rtfm :) 23:39 kados were the files XML? 23:39 kados and how does it know 'title' 'author' 'date' etc? 23:39 indradg yep 23:39 chris be worth looking at the docs 23:39 kados I wonder if we can put 150,000 files in one directory 23:38 indradg yes 23:38 kados so we'd have to dump out the titles into files right? 23:38 kados right 23:38 indradg kados, i haven't done anything extra in this demo ... d/led Namazu, dumped a CD full of documents, used the cmd-line indexer of Namazu, put the CGI script in the place u want and bingo! ur search engine is ready, sans any customization 23:38 kados cool 23:36 indradg back 23:27 kados k 23:27 indradg ph 23:27 indradg brb... on oh 23:27 kados (and the cgi too) 23:26 kados so could you send me your indexer? 23:26 kados that's the kind of speed I'm talking about! 23:24 indradg indradg and use the ICONIP repository and u can search on genes, algorithms, gene expression, genome, artificial intelligence 23:24 indradg indradg CSS is screwed up at the moment 23:24 indradg indradg kados, try this -> http://59.93.161.79/cgi-bin/namazu.cgi 23:24 kados indradg: no 23:23 indradg kados, got disconnected... did u get my last msg 23:00 kados huh ... wikipedia uses lucene 22:54 chris yeah 22:54 kados rankings that is ... not new stuff 22:54 kados whole even ;-) 22:54 kados it's entirely possible that the reason it takes google so long to update is that it's index is running thw hole time ;-) 22:52 kados chris: http://lucene.apache.org/java/docs/benchmarks.html 22:45 kados can we try it out somewhere? 22:44 indradg kados, not really... I integrated the namazu cgi interface into my CMS frontend to the library 22:44 chris id expect that .. my theory is that if you want fast searches building hte indexes will take time 22:44 kados indradg: so you've integrated this with Koha already? 22:43 chris right 22:43 indradg s/too/took/ 22:42 indradg the initial index creation is a bit of a killer.... too abt 6 hrs or so to finish... so I left it on as an over-night job and went home ;) 22:42 kados it's got deb packages too ;-) 22:41 indradg chris, yep! 22:41 kados hehe 22:40 chris is it fast indradg ? 22:40 chris 25gb is a lot 22:40 chris we should look at namazu 22:40 chris yeah 22:40 kados and you don't want to miss any of them 22:40 chris somethign like that 22:40 chris ((tagsubfield=245a and order=1 and value=chris) or (tagsubfield=245a and order=2 and value=chris)) and ((tagsubfield=245a and order=1 and value=cormack) or (tagsubfield=245a and order=1 and value=cormack)) 22:40 kados so you normally just do 245a ... but there's a bunch more places author can be stored in MARC 22:39 kados it gets even more complicated with the 'see also' 22:39 chris if it was you could do it with ors and and 22:38 chris suck 22:38 kados nope 22:38 indradg hmmm 22:38 chris i was thinking it was 245a 1 and 245a 2 22:38 kados etc. 22:38 kados or triple 22:38 kados yep 22:38 chris and then u double it 22:37 kados yep ... it's huge 22:37 chris thats a big table 22:37 kados ordering? 22:37 chris yikes 22:37 kados you need to join on the same table 22:37 chris ahh theres no ordering involved? 22:37 kados well you can't do select from marc_word where tagsubfield=245a and value=chris and value=cormack 22:37 indradg i'm using Namazu for a full-text indexed search through about 25 GBs of autofs-mounted ISO images which are linked to 856u field in my catalog 22:36 chris chris cormack 22:36 chris i type 22:36 kados :-) 22:36 chris im thinking 22:36 chris you do? 22:36 kados no ... but you need a join to do two terms 22:36 chris oh its split over 2 tables? 22:35 kados and that's costly 22:35 kados so we need to do a join 22:35 chris right 22:35 kados yep 22:35 chris becomes 2 rows 22:35 chris chris,cormack 22:35 chris is author split up? 22:35 chris in marc_word 22:35 chris joshua, u might know this 22:34 chris no problem :) 22:34 chris if we could do author='something' 22:34 chris and unfortunately patrons never remember the names of authors and books properly ;) 22:33 chris bang mysql cant use an index 22:33 kados no indexes 22:33 chris since as soon as you do that 22:33 chris and what makes it tricky to do in sql is like '%something' 22:33 chris its a tricky one 22:32 indradg do check it out... in case you are looking at full-text indexing 22:31 chris i havent 22:31 indradg have u tried out Namazu ? 22:31 chris i could do boolean tomorrow, but searches would take longer .. thats the problem 22:31 kados we need a KOha search syntax 22:31 chris add features while not slowing down 22:31 chris yep 22:31 kados boolian, etc. 22:31 chris and we are looking for any ideas on how to do it 22:31 kados and add functionality 22:30 chris basically we want to speed up searching 22:30 kados right ... 22:30 kados http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=koha24rmnotes#searching 22:30 chris it may be that we need to build special search tables 22:30 chris i dont know if thats even the way to go too 22:30 indradg right 22:30 kados right ... indradg have you seen my arguments for switching our search engine from SLQ to textual? 22:29 indradg sorry if I dont make sense... just woke up and yet to have my first cup of tea :P 22:29 chris just exploring possibilities 22:29 chris t 22:29 chris im not really planning anything ye 22:29 indradg kados, chris : wat exactly are u planning with a plucene / lucene search? 22:27 chris 2 seconds id be happy with 22:27 chris its a good aim .. but will be hard to achieve 22:27 chris and google have some serious hardware and an algortithm they wont tell anyone about 22:26 chris there is all sorts of overhead 22:25 chris hmm 22:25 kados we should be able to return stuff really fast 22:25 chris yep 22:25 kados we're only talking about 150,000 items here 22:25 chris right 22:25 kados right ... but even with a small result set searches are taking 4 secs ... I was hoping for instant searching like with google 22:24 chris sorry double the speed 22:24 chris i reckon u can still halve the speed by not handing the template all the results 22:24 chris but it might be worth it if the speed is a big improvement 22:22 chris i suspect that will make integration quite a bit harder 22:17 kados chris: from the lucene list I'm getting the feeling the plucene is not as fast as lucene ... I may try to install the java version and see how that works 21:50 kados but still not fast enough 21:50 kados http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/cgi-bin/koha/plucene/search.cgi?query=bears 21:50 kados well after the optimize I think it's faster 21:07 dean2 oops 21:06 dean2 lol 21:06 chris u want to be over in #katipo :) 21:06 chris dean .. wrong channel 21:06 dean2 http://staff.katipo.co.nz/gallery/cpag/aap?full=1 21:06 dean2 http://staff.katipo.co.nz/gallery/cpag/aaq 21:05 dean2 Richard, you there? 20:23 shedges kados: I remember now that WebClarity Software (the BookWhere people) also have started offering a MARC editor that can be added to BookWhere -- http://www.webclarity.info/products/marcnotepad.html 19:59 shedges (biab) 19:58 shedges if only there was a way to speed up Koha's cataloging... 19:57 kados brb ... dinner overheating ;-) 19:57 kados gotcha 19:57 kados ahh 19:57 shedges Bibliofile is the MARC editor / saver 19:57 kados maybe we should set up a mirrored database of LOC and some other large Z39.50 databases and charge to access it ;-) 19:57 shedges You need BookWhere to grab records, but that's cheap. 19:56 shedges They don't advertise that you can still buy a license for just Bibliofile 19:56 kados it's amazing how many libraries are falling for this ;-) 19:56 kados so ITSMARC is just a TCL-maintained database ... the library can still use Bibliofile to access free sources 19:56 shedges (the old name) 19:56 kados TLC even? 19:56 shedges yep 19:55 kados Bibliofile is TLS? 19:55 shedges right, 'cause they've already done what Bristol wants to do! 19:55 chris thats a goodly saving 19:55 kados well that would probably do it 19:54 kados would their cataloging workflow be affected? (I really need to talk with the catalogers someday soon) 19:54 shedges I think it's about 1/10 19:54 shedges I'd have to look at the numbers for NPL 19:54 kados :-) 19:54 kados what kind of fraction? 19:54 kados well ... it's doing something ;-) 19:54 shedges kados: Bristol could keep their Bibliofile software for a fraction of the cost of the complete ITSMarc. 19:51 kados ok ... I'll give it a shot 19:51 chris and im guessing 0 is use existing 19:51 chris yep 19:51 kados ahh ... so 1 is create 19:51 chris so i reckon 19:51 chris documents. 19:50 chris created, or whether an existing index is opened for the addition of new 19:50 chris The third argument to the constructor determines whether a new index is 19:50 chris This will create a new Plucene::Index::Writer object. 19:50 chris e); 19:50 chris my $writer = Plucene::Index::Writer->new($path, $analyser, $creat 19:50 chris man will tell me 19:50 chris 2 secs 19:50 chris not sure how tho :) 19:49 chris yeah i reckon so 19:47 kados chris do you think I could just run optimize without rebuilding the inde? 19:47 kados exactly 19:46 chris u can find out item stuff 19:46 chris and then once u have a bunch of biblionumbers 19:46 kados (then we can do real tests) 19:46 chris so query plucene for biblio data 19:46 kados (15 minutes till I optimize the index 19:45 kados also ... it's kinda pokey 19:45 kados I agree ... unless there's some really fast way to do indexes that's undocumented 19:45 chris we dont want to tell someone something is on the shelf when its just been loaned out 19:45 kados yep 19:45 chris if that makes sense 19:45 chris so no item based fields 19:45 chris frequently 19:45 chris i was thinking that plucene will be most useful stuff that doesnt change 19:44 chris hmm yeah 19:44 kados plucene note: we could have an index on 'shelf location' and automatically launch a search for nearby items for each of the results 19:38 kados I don't see an ITSMARC- database 19:37 kados it looks like they maintain their own mirrors of free databases 19:36 kados yep 19:36 chris just a nicer interface 19:36 kados (and the state might sponser it) 19:36 chris nope 19:36 kados but it might not take much to get them there 19:35 kados i said that Koha's cataloging tools aren't up to par (cause they aren'tfor MARC) 19:35 kados Bristol said they would move to Koha if they could get rid of itsmarc 19:35 chris cool 19:28 kados and it wasn't selinux cause that's disabled 19:28 kados apparantly someone didn't like that ;-) 19:28 kados my symlinked dirs were linnked to dirs in /root 19:27 kados really strange 19:27 kados I found the problem 19:10 kados ta 19:09 chris hmm dunno whats up then sorry 19:09 kados I changed it to 'all' and it still gives me the error after restarting apache 19:09 kados that's in the main httpd.conf 19:09 kados </Directory> 19:09 kados AllowOverride none 19:09 kados Options FollowSymLinks 19:09 kados <Directory /> 19:08 chris worht checking 19:08 chris yeah 19:08 kados ahh ... that would be in the main httpd.conf 19:07 chris maybe ur not allowed to override 19:07 kados still get the same error 19:07 kados </Directory> 19:07 kados Options +FollowSymLinks 19:07 kados <Directory /var/www/koha22> 19:05 chris i just go for the easy answer first :) 19:05 chris lemme know if it works 19:05 kados cool thanks 19:04 chris would be another way .. at least thats the habit im in 19:04 chris so <Directory /usr/local/koha/intranet/htdocs> 19:04 chris (it works on all below as well of course) 19:04 chris you usually define it for a location or a directory 19:04 kados I thought it was a virtualhost setting 19:03 kados it's lilnked to a directory? 19:03 chris might not be 19:03 kados ahh ... that must be it 19:03 chris ? 19:03 chris </Location> 19:03 chris Options +FollowSymLinks 19:03 chris you have <Location /> 19:03 kados any ideas? 19:02 kados yikes on the spelling ;-) 19:02 kados I"m working on this Koha install and I've run into something I've not seen before ... I"ve ot Options +FollowSymLinks in my koha.conf file but I'm getting the error: ymbolic link not allowed: 19:02 chris slightly 19:02 kados chris around? 17:40 rosa :-) 17:39 rach lucky it's a 2 min commute and we don't have web cams here :-) 17:39 rach yerg 17:39 rosa 7am meeting?? 17:39 rosa hi rach 17:28 rach morning rosalie 17:01 rach it's good - should be all done by the time the phone starts ringing here around 9am 17:01 rach hi stephen 17:01 shedges hi rach 17:00 kados :-) 17:00 kados cool 17:00 rach just might not be too coherant until the cafine kicks in :-) 17:00 rach so not too bad 17:00 rach it'll be 7am 17:00 kados I got my NZ time confused by an hour 16:59 kados is that time slot too early for you? 16:59 kados morning rach 16:59 rach morning 16:50 kados cya 16:50 shaun bye all 16:50 shaun I'm off to bed 16:48 shaun ok bye russ, i'll be gone by then though 16:48 russ i'll be back in a couple of hours and read the logs 16:48 russ sorry guys i have to go 16:44 shaun russ: wdyt? 16:44 shaun sorry! 16:44 slef shaun: paste error 16:43 shaun owen Well sure, but the individual developers' posts would be aggregated into a single offical Koha feed, in the scenario kados and I are envisioning 16:43 slef it can accept RDF Site Summary and (at a push) Really Simple Syndication 16:43 shaun shaun I don't know how many people read kados' or chris' blog, but I am quite sure people would be more easily persuaded to subscribe to the RSS of a /koha/ blog, which shows general progress, rather than that of an individual developer with their own specialist area and problems 16:43 shaun kados chris an I use blosxom which means you could just monitor the 'koha' feed 16:43 shaun * owen wonders if it could be both at once... 16:43 shaun owen Yeah, that's a good argument. 16:43 shaun shaun then the blog is a koha blog, as opposed to a developer's blog with some stuff about koha - and it would be easier for devs who have no intention of making blogs just to talk about specific contributions to be part of the community (like me...) 16:43 shaun owen shaun: Why do you say that? 16:43 shaun kados all koha.org would need is an xml parser 16:43 shaun shaun having a central server with the blog software on (separate to kea) is ideal, imo 16:43 shaun kados yep ... that's the approach I'd like to see implemented 16:43 shaun owen If the rss-grab was doable, it would mean that devs could use whatever software they wanted, provided it had the capability to spit out an xml feed 16:43 shaun owen It's possible...but would mean that the central site would have to run the blog software, and each developer would have to have an account 16:43 shaun shaun how about the other way round? i.e. all of the blog posts from each developer are collected in an xml file, and then that developer can choose to mirror it on his/her site 16:43 shaun owen I like the rss-grab idea, kados. 16:43 slef otherwayup is running schycyroll/mabloss, which I know is theoretically sound in its blog calculus 16:42 russ no sorry - i have been watching the british lions play the pumas (rugby) :-) 16:42 shaun russ and chris, have you seen the logs for today (this morning for you)? 16:42 slef did no-one want me to set up an otherwayup aggregator of them? 16:42 shaun blogs... yes 16:42 shaun excellent 16:42 slef blogs 16:41 slef uh 16:41 russ our designer is not a technical person at all 16:41 russ yeah that is always our approach shaun 16:41 russ then dont worry about the cms 16:41 russ but i think if a website redesign is what everyone is after 16:41 shaun hmm... i have been blind so far, concentrating on the design - should i assume that the cms will be able to cope? 16:40 russ we store the template files in a kea site so that we can roll back and manage who is editing them 16:40 russ for all our dynamic stuff - like koha for example 16:40 russ you can have kea triggering to the sales website and then if you want other stuff installed on the live site you can do that 16:39 russ well cos you have two websites 16:38 shaun and can particular parts be dynamic by themselves, e.g. www.koha.org/blogs or blogs.koha.org which use a separate php system, for example? and, even better, can kea grab dynamic content from another system with a database backend? (i suppose that asks a bit much) 16:38 russ and opencms looks pretty cool 16:38 russ yeah like i said before - we are keen to try something else 16:37 chris having talked kea up, i also think koha.org would be a good site to try opencms on 16:37 chris yep thats no problem shaun 16:37 shaun I meant, like subdomains... developers.koha.org, www.koha.org 16:37 owen Man, to heck with open-sourcing this thing. Sounds like you need to sell it! ;) 16:36 russ by user i mean content editors 16:36 russ something like 300 users 16:36 chris its managing about 70 sites at the moment 16:36 shaun so can kea manage multiple sites (e.g. "sales" and developer sites)? 16:35 shaun nvm, regionalised joke 16:35 chris im not sure what you mean shaun 16:34 chris what? 16:33 russ it also has some smart tags that do things like navigation and breadcrumbs for you 16:33 chris and when you choose in kea to create a new page, you choose which template 16:33 russ we use html pages constructed with ssi 16:33 chris you build some kea templates 16:33 chris with a mysql database to track the files and cvs 16:32 shaun so how do you do templating? 16:32 chris html, pdf, etc 16:32 kados I like the cvs backend 16:32 chris whatever the file is 16:32 kados sounds sweet 16:32 shaun what does it use? 16:32 chris no 16:32 russ you can set up page reviews to remind you that you need to go and check a page 16:32 shaun so as the backend does it use xml? 16:31 chris so you can revert to any version of any page 16:31 russ it generates real html pages so proper urls 16:31 chris its backended by cvs 16:31 chris changes you make dont go live until you trigger them 16:31 russ i think we better do up an email to the list 16:31 chris you have a live site and edit site 16:31 shaun hehe... carry on 16:31 chris tons 16:30 shaun what are the advantages of using kea? 16:30 russ i'd have to talk to chris about other systems 16:30 kados that's what the liblime site uses 16:30 shaun my personal opinion: PHP/MySQL all the way... 16:30 kados ;-) 16:30 kados i like html::template 16:30 shaun what could we use? 16:29 chris not really no 16:29 russ before we go too far down this path - we here at katipo aren't too fussy about koha.org continuing to use kea 16:28 kados chris: is kea built off html::template? 16:27 shaun yes, i have read through all of that - I am interested in the tech specs - how templates are integrated, how it manages content and what formats it uses etc. 16:27 russ http://www.katipo.co.nz/clients/helpdesk/ 16:27 russ and we have online tutorials 16:27 russ http://www.katipo.co.nz/solutions/contentmanagement/index.html 16:26 russ if you want to read some stuff about kea, we have broucherware type stuff on the katipo website 16:26 shaun I was also doing the openoffice.org redesign for a while... but stopped because they are all closed-minded b******s 16:26 russ ok so where to start i guess 16:24 russ cool 16:24 shaun I started out in design, I do web development now too - php is my first language, then english, and im learning perl for the purpose of koha. my open source experience includes contributor to apache forrest and leader of fles. 16:24 chris so its a bit of a mess :) 16:24 russ but anyway... 16:24 russ on reflection we should have open sourced it 3-4 years ago 16:23 chris basically its never been released 16:23 kados gotcha 16:23 chris kados: its an inhouse project, and as such has all the problems inherent with that 16:23 russ crikey you can tell i havent had a coffee this morning - my typing is lousy 16:22 russ no you'd have top ask chris more on that one 16:22 kados russ: is that the only reason it's not open source? ;-) 16:21 russ s/how/who 16:21 russ what is your skill set shaun - i am a web developer / designer how has migrated into project management 16:20 russ ok cool 16:20 shaun I'm interested in helping out with the Koha.org site. Very, very interested. 16:20 shaun what language is it in? 16:20 russ and we need to do some tidying up on it 16:20 owen shaun, start with "I'm interested in helping out with the Koha.org site?" ;) 16:20 russ but it doesnt have a simple installer that you can run 16:19 russ ah we would love to be in a posistion to open source kea 16:19 shaun I'm not sure how kea works... 'spose you don't do free copies ;) 16:18 russ to do some kea training for clients, as it happens 16:18 russ i have to go in about 20 mins though 16:18 russ yep sure 16:18 russ yeah si tipped me off :-) 16:18 shaun so, can we talk about kea? 16:17 shaun the design is beautiful, russ... but i suppose that's a matter of opinion 16:17 kados russ must have been tipped of by someone at katipo 16:16 russ morning 16:16 shaun uncanny... 16:16 shaun hi russ 16:16 owen Spooky. 16:16 owen shaun, all your plans aren't going anywhere if you don't get in touch with Russel, I'm guessing. 16:15 kados email ;-) 16:15 shaun no - russel is inconveniently at the opposite time zone to me... 16:14 shaun I would use good old php/mysql myself, but kea will be the choice i suppose... if the magic is all done at katipo 16:14 owen shaun, have you talked to Russel about all this? 16:13 shaun idinno, but the katipo people do 16:13 kados whaat are you using kea for? 16:12 shaun but the site will use kea... 16:12 kados for now ... unless you want to get fancy 16:12 kados kinda like the mysql documentation 16:12 shaun so documentation would be better placed as a link, rather than a section of the site then... 16:12 kados if you want you could do some fancy xml parsing of the docbook and make it look pretty for the main site 16:11 kados all documentation is at kohadocs.org 16:11 shaun how does documentation work? i.e. where does it stay at the moment, where is it going etc.? 16:07 kados right 16:07 shaun koha-dev, sorry 16:07 kados the koha mailing list is for the public 16:07 shaun The developers link should be to do with things like #koha, the mailing lists, CVS, job requests, and of course the blog ;-) 16:05 shaun I will keep a "developers" link in the top right-hand corner - and when you go to download it there could be a "You can contribute to Koha..." message 16:05 kados there's going to be a lot of overlap at our meetings 16:04 shaun this is more stuff that you should know about as RM than stuff specific to the design 16:03 owen So maybe a 'get involved' or 'for developers' link 16:03 kados let's hold off on this discussion until we have our real discussion -- you can jump start it by bringing it up in reply to my meeting call 16:03 kados yep ... it would be good to have a development site and a 'koha marketing' site 16:02 shaun so hence I would like to separate off the developers' stuff - while still keeping it a friendly community. 16:01 kados I agree 16:01 shaun that's good, I'll use that 16:01 shaun With the new site, I really want to change the attitude - to make Koha into something that you want to buy for your library and get shocked by the fact that it's free. 16:01 kados and 'about the project' 16:01 kados how about 'features' 16:00 shaun Just "about" then? 15:59 kados I understand the distinction ... but I'm not sure those terms are best to make it 15:59 shaun i.e. about has how it came about, where it is used, while the product focuses on technical specifications, capabilities or features? 15:58 shaun hmm, i suppose it could be the disambiguation of "the Koha project" and "the Koha product" 15:57 kados how is 'about different than 'the product'? 15:57 shaun faq, that's the one 15:57 shaun and news down the right hand column 15:57 kados faq 15:56 shaun and links on the side 15:56 kados * News 15:56 shaun plus links to developers, test drive and downloads at the top 15:56 kados * Demos 15:56 shaun * Documentation 15:56 shaun * Support 15:56 shaun * Get Koha 15:56 shaun * The Product 15:56 shaun doing the website... have you got any ideas for what navigation categories to use? at the moment I have * About 15:55 kados must be 15:55 owen I guess shedges and I can't be logged in at the same time from this host :( 15:53 owen ? 15:52 shaun it keeps katipo buildings warm.... especially if it uses flatfiles ;-) 15:50 shaun Then it could be more like a comfortable. passive medium between IRC and mailing lists - outsiders see what's actually going on. 15:49 owen Well sure, but the individual developers' posts would be aggregated into a single offical Koha feed, in the scenario kados and I are envisioning 15:48 shaun I don't know how many people read kados' or chris' blog, but I am quite sure people would be more easily persuaded to subscribe to the RSS of a /koha/ blog, which shows general progress, rather than that of an individual developer with their own specialist area and problems 15:48 kados chris an I use blosxom which means you could just monitor the 'koha' feed 15:48 owen Yeah, that's a good argument. 15:47 shaun then the blog is a koha blog, as opposed to a developer's blog with some stuff about koha - and it would be easier for devs who have no intention of making blogs just to talk about specific contributions to be part of the community (like me...) 15:46 owen shaun: Why do you say that? 15:46 kados all koha.org would need is an xml parser 15:45 shaun having a central server with the blog software on (separate to kea) is ideal, imo 15:45 kados yep ... that's the approach I'd like to see implemented 15:44 owen If the rss-grab was doable, it would mean that devs could use whatever software they wanted, provided it had the capability to spit out an xml feed 15:44 owen It's possible...but would mean that the central site would have to run the blog software, and each developer would have to have an account 15:43 shaun how about the other way round? i.e. all of the blog posts from each developer are collected in an xml file, and then that developer can choose to mirror it on his/her site 15:42 owen I like the rss-grab idea, kados. 15:42 kados just an idea ;-) 15:42 kados hehe 15:41 kados blogs.koha.org 15:40 owen kados and chris, so far :) 15:39 shaun thing is, how many devs can be bothered to set up rss feeds?... 15:39 owen In fact I found a a blog entry that linked to me today, and it was all in Czech. I could barely read a word of it 15:38 kados well I think it would be great to have a place on koha.org that grabbed our feeds in RSS and displayed them for all to see 15:37 owen Yeah, I wish. 15:37 kados owen has a blog ... it's just in chech ;-) 15:37 shaun i can't remember what the outcome was of that discussion about communal blogging 15:36 shaun ah, good old kados.org ;) 15:36 kados shaun: http://kados.org/cgi-bin/blosxom.cgi/blog/koha 15:33 indradg g'nite folks... i'm off for good! 15:32 indradg s/spew/spewing/ 15:32 indradg slef, u been spew anti-s/w patent vitriol on the list ;) 15:31 shaun is your blog a personal one or at liblime? 15:31 shaun well, that makes two true international links, so i'll do a links list 15:29 kados if that's what you mean 15:29 kados there's slef, paul, and liblime, then there's chris's blog and my blog 15:28 kados how many international sites? 15:27 shaun how many international sites do we have now? 15:21 slef Can someone boot "KISS Madeleine \(OPOCE\)" <Madeleine.Kiss@cec.eu.int> from the list until she learns htf to use an autoreply? 15:19 slef Didn't notice anyone talking to me. I unset myself /away and then went to cook dinner 15:16 indradg i should hit the bed... early day at work tomorrow 15:16 shaun ah, the site is looking beautiful... i will have a first draft of the hp up on my staging server by the meeting, if the time stays the same. 15:15 shaun hehe 15:11 owen I'm not saying you're not right about the time being to early, but I think they all telecommute :) 15:09 shaun hehe... but somehow i doubt whether the people at katipo (russ, rach and chris at least) will want to come into work early... 15:08 owen Just ask indradg 15:08 owen It doesn't cut them off, it just makes it more inconvenient ;) 15:05 shaun but all the same, 8PM is much better for me ;-) 15:04 shaun kados: you still there? 7PM GMT cuts off the people in New Zealand - that's 7AM in Wellington 14:31 shaun either it was a very long 20 minutes, or slef isn't verbose now. 13:23 shaun hehe... i'll be very surprised if this renders properly in IE without tweaking... 13:17 slef I've got to leave my terminal for a few minutes. Back in 20 or so. 13:17 slef Should I be scared and/or watch for the contract killers? 13:16 shaun aah, i know you now ;-) 13:16 slef shaun: MJ Ray (sorry, I forgot to set IRCNAME again) 13:15 shaun slef: which one are you? 13:15 kados someone must hav eforgot to run postalias ;-) 13:15 slef shedges: it must just not like me, then. :-/ 13:14 shedges i sent some stuff, slef -- didn't bounce (2 days ago?) 13:14 slef for the creation of a new user for your email. 13:14 slef RT could not load a valid user, and RT's configuration does not allow 13:14 slef owen: it says: 13:14 slef shaun: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/koha/ and http://www.ttllp.co.uk/koha.html I think, but the second isn't very up to date. Our own web site comes last. 13:14 owen oh... haven't tried it. Maybe they neglected to get it set up yet 13:13 shaun slef: do you have a website for that? 13:13 slef owen: kohaweb@support.katipo.co.nz 13:13 slef shaun: yes, either hourly or long-term contract. I'm very suspicious of schools, though (bad experiences). 13:12 owen slef: which address? 13:12 shaun slef: a secondary school - do you do professional support? 13:12 slef Anyone else notice the kohaweb address barfs an error back? 13:12 indradg all u really need is to add a couple of extra fields in the borrowers table and two extra lines in the tmpl file 13:12 kados :-) 13:12 slef I'm sort-of here 13:12 slef feel free to msg if you prefer 13:12 slef shaun: what you after a rate for? 13:11 kados shaun: sure ... but since you're in UK I'd check wtih slef first 13:11 indradg shaun, I'm displaying the member pic + specimen signature on the intranet interface at one of my installation 13:11 slef "free and open source software"? 13:11 shaun kados: you international now? :p 13:11 kados shaun: liblime.com ;-) 13:11 shedges indrag, can you get all of a MARC record in AACR2? 13:10 shaun kados: the only other bugbear is support - somebody needs to support this thing so that schools can afford it. 13:10 indradg the Koha interface is quite removed from that, and librarians trained on those s/w react negatively to Koha's interface... 13:09 kados shaun: if that's all we're talking about than I tend to agree 13:09 indradg In these s/w, the cataloging interface apparently resembles the catalog card style followed by AACR2 standard 13:09 shaun e.g. a school would find inline display pictures of the members /very/ useful, whereas a public library does not - so it can be turned on or off in parameters 13:08 indradg well... being a non-librarian, libraries across India (the automated ones) use one or two particular s/w developed in India 13:08 shaun It's just the "sales structure" that should be more specific - have a look at softlink (www.softlink.co.uk) - they have it right, i.e. they sell the same ILS products but with different highlighted features. 13:08 kados indradg: yep 13:08 kados shaun: although I believe seperating content from presentation is a good goal, it's not always possible 13:07 indradg kados, remember I mentioned AACR2 style cataloging templates in a priv msg to you during the meeting? 13:07 owen I was wondering this morning if we should investigate how to do a customized home page, letting users choose which nagigational elements they wanted 13:07 kados but I don't think we have enough designers to form a new 'focus group' devoted to just that design 13:07 shaun why's that? one template should rule them all 13:06 kados i.e., should we include different templates based on the library type 13:06 kados shaun: I think it's a good thing to talk about within the context of our 'interface design' discussion 13:03 owen Sure, but those of us working on koha have to be selfish in what we work on. It has to be relevent to our own organizations 13:03 shaun imo, it's the second largest potential "market" though 13:03 indradg i think owen has a point here 13:02 shaun e.g. website/interface design, documentation, i18n etc. 13:01 owen shaun, I don't think we have enough school-oriented users right now to form such a group 13:01 shedges (often misspelled) 13:01 shedges most of the code comments recognize "Koha Development Team" 13:01 shaun a la the ones kados mentioned in his e-mail to the list 13:01 kados shaun: not sure what you mean 13:01 owen open a task group? What does that mean? 13:00 indradg how about "Developed and maintained by the Koha Consortium" ? 13:00 shaun aha - kados, have you considered opening up a task group for implementations in educational establishments? particularly secondary schools, as they could benefit hugely from koha, provided it has support. 13:00 indradg provides rach and others at Katipo are OK with it 12:59 indradg kados, shedges, slef, shaun : now that various agencies across the world are contributing to Koha can I suggest something abt this "maintained by a team of volunteers" biz 12:58 shaun me being a student there, I will probably pop in and feel the warmth coming from the server every now and then though. 12:57 shaun I was hoping I could find an agency to do it - anybody know TTLLP's rates? 12:56 owen shaun, are you proposing some kind of formal support contract with them? 12:56 shaun yes - devonport high school for boys, http://www.dhsb.org/ --hopefully there'll be some opac on there ;-) 12:55 shedges gotcha 12:55 owen I think that's a fair thing to say, kados. 12:55 kados shedges: it's true that agencies other than libraries are doing the work on Koha ... but I'd like to focus on the fact that it's the libraries that are 'steering' that development 12:54 owen That's your school library shaun? 12:52 shaun good - that's also what I have been focusing on in my (now 11 pages, *sigh*) report to DHSB Library 12:52 shedges I think slef had some other language (irc a couple of days ago) -- more than just libraries 12:52 kados they pick what gets done 12:52 kados I'd like to focus on the 'steered by libraries' ... Koha is software built FOR librarians 12:51 kados +compliant and supports Z39.50 (client and server). 12:51 kados +acquisitions, cataloging, administration and reporting. It is fully MARC 12:51 kados +Koha is a full-featured ILS including: a catalogue, OPAC, circulation, 12:51 kados +growing community of libraries collaborating to achieve their technology goals. 12:51 kados +deployed in January of 2000, Koha's development is currently steered by a 12:51 kados Developed initially in New Zealand by Katipo Communications Ltd. and first 12:51 kados Koha, the first "free and open-source" integrated library system 12:51 kados shaun: how's this: 12:51 shaun "open source" needs to be considered - there are plenty of ILS running on things like ASP, but not GPL-compliant 12:50 shaun (or at least a potential user, which is most damaging) 12:50 shaun to recap: "maintained by a team of volunteers" suggests two things: "nerds" and "unprofessional" to a conservative user 12:49 kados slef: I haven't gotten my superpowers yet ;-) 12:49 shaun (after talking to shedges yesterday about it) 12:48 shaun I have run into some problems about what we sell ourselves as 12:37 slef that's assuming I should be there still ;-) 12:37 slef (changed email address) 12:37 slef kados: can you approve me back onto koha-manage? 12:07 kados so stay tuned ;-) 12:07 kados shaun: calling an IRC meeting 12:07 kados shaun: I'll be sending out an email today 12:06 kados shaun: that's great news