Time  Nick    Message
12:06 kados   shaun: that's great news
12:07 kados   shaun: I'll be sending out an email today
12:07 kados   shaun: calling an IRC meeting
12:07 kados   so stay tuned ;-)
12:37 slef    kados: can you approve me back onto koha-manage?
12:37 slef    (changed email address)
12:37 slef    that's assuming I should be there still ;-)
12:48 shaun   I have run into some problems about what we sell ourselves as
12:49 shaun   (after talking to shedges yesterday about it)
12:49 kados   slef: I haven't gotten my superpowers yet ;-)
12:50 shaun   to recap: "maintained by a team of volunteers" suggests two things: "nerds" and "unprofessional" to a conservative user
12:50 shaun   (or at least a potential user, which is most damaging)
12:51 shaun   "open source" needs to be considered - there are plenty of ILS running on things like ASP, but not GPL-compliant
12:51 kados   shaun: how's this:
12:51 kados   Koha, the first "free and open-source" integrated library system
12:51 kados   Developed initially in New Zealand by Katipo Communications Ltd. and first
12:51 kados   +deployed in January of 2000, Koha's development is currently steered by a
12:51 kados   +growing community of libraries collaborating to achieve their technology goals.
12:51 kados   +Koha is a full-featured ILS including: a catalogue, OPAC, circulation,
12:51 kados   +acquisitions, cataloging, administration and reporting. It is fully MARC
12:51 kados   +compliant and supports Z39.50 (client and server).
12:52 kados   I'd like to focus on the 'steered by libraries' ... Koha is software built FOR librarians
12:52 kados   they pick what gets done
12:52 shedges I think slef had some other language (irc a couple of days ago)  -- more than just libraries
12:52 shaun   good - that's also what I have been focusing on in my (now 11 pages, *sigh*) report to DHSB Library
12:54 owen    That's your school library shaun?
12:55 kados   shedges: it's true that agencies other than libraries are doing the work on Koha ... but I'd like to focus on the fact that it's the libraries that are 'steering' that development
12:55 owen    I think that's a fair thing to say, kados.
12:55 shedges gotcha
12:56 shaun   yes - devonport high school for boys, http://www.dhsb.org/ --hopefully there'll be some opac on there ;-)
12:56 owen    shaun, are you proposing some kind of formal support contract with them?
12:57 shaun   I was hoping I could find an agency to do it - anybody know TTLLP's rates?
12:58 shaun   me being a student there, I will probably pop in and feel the warmth coming from the server every now and then though.
12:59 indradg kados, shedges, slef, shaun : now that various agencies across the world are contributing to Koha can I suggest something abt this "maintained by a team of volunteers" biz
13:00 indradg provides rach and others at Katipo are OK with it
13:00 shaun   aha - kados, have you considered opening up a task group for implementations in educational establishments? particularly secondary schools, as they could benefit hugely from koha, provided it has support.
13:00 indradg how about "Developed and maintained by the Koha Consortium" ?
13:01 owen    open a task group?  What does that mean?
13:01 kados   shaun: not sure what you mean
13:01 shaun   a la the ones kados mentioned in his e-mail to the list
13:01 shedges most of the code comments recognize "Koha Development Team"
13:01 shedges (often misspelled)
13:01 owen    shaun, I don't think we have enough school-oriented users right now to form such a group
13:02 shaun   e.g. website/interface design, documentation, i18n etc.
13:03 indradg i think owen has a point here
13:03 shaun   imo, it's the second largest potential "market" though
13:03 owen    Sure, but those of us working on koha have to be selfish in what we work on.  It has to be relevent to our own organizations
13:06 kados   shaun: I think it's a good thing to talk about within the context of our 'interface design' discussion
13:06 kados   i.e., should we include different templates based on the library type
13:07 shaun   why's that? one template should rule them all
13:07 kados   but I don't think we have enough designers to form a new 'focus group' devoted to just that design
13:07 owen    I was wondering this morning if we should investigate how to do a customized home page, letting users choose which nagigational elements they wanted
13:07 indradg kados, remember I mentioned AACR2 style cataloging templates in a priv msg to you during the meeting?
13:08 kados   shaun: although I believe seperating content from presentation is a good goal, it's not always possible
13:08 kados   indradg: yep
13:08 shaun   It's just the "sales structure" that should be more specific - have a look at softlink (www.softlink.co.uk) - they have it right, i.e. they sell the same ILS products but with different highlighted features.
13:08 indradg well... being a non-librarian, libraries across India (the automated ones) use one or two particular s/w developed in India
13:09 shaun   e.g. a school would find inline display pictures of the members /very/ useful, whereas a public library does not - so it can be turned on or off in parameters
13:09 indradg In these s/w, the cataloging interface apparently resembles the catalog card style followed by AACR2 standard
13:09 kados   shaun: if that's all we're talking about than I tend to agree
13:10 indradg the Koha interface is quite removed from that,  and librarians trained on those s/w react negatively to Koha's interface...
13:10 shaun   kados: the only other bugbear is support - somebody needs to support this thing so that schools can afford it.
13:11 shedges indrag, can you get all of a MARC record in AACR2?
13:11 kados   shaun: liblime.com ;-)
13:11 shaun   kados: you international now? :p
13:11 slef    "free and open source software"?
13:11 indradg shaun, I'm displaying the member pic + specimen signature on the intranet interface at one of my installation
13:11 kados   shaun: sure ... but since you're in UK I'd check wtih slef first
13:12 slef    shaun: what you after a rate for?
13:12 slef    feel free to msg if you prefer
13:12 slef    I'm sort-of here
13:12 kados   :-)
13:12 indradg all u really  need is to add a couple of extra fields in the borrowers table and two extra lines  in the tmpl file
13:12 slef    Anyone else notice the kohaweb address barfs an error back?
13:12 shaun   slef: a secondary school - do you do professional support?
13:12 owen    slef: which address?
13:13 slef    shaun: yes, either hourly or long-term contract. I'm very suspicious of schools, though (bad experiences).
13:13 slef    owen: kohaweb@support.katipo.co.nz
13:13 shaun   slef: do you have a website for that?
13:14 owen    oh... haven't tried it.  Maybe they neglected to get it set up yet
13:14 slef    shaun: http://www.ttllp.co.uk/koha/ and http://www.ttllp.co.uk/koha.html I think, but the second isn't very up to date. Our own web site comes last.
13:14 slef    owen: it says:
13:14 slef    RT could not load a valid user, and RT's configuration does not allow
13:14 slef    for the creation of a new user for your email.
13:14 shedges i sent some stuff, slef -- didn't bounce (2 days ago?)
13:15 slef    shedges: it must just not like me, then. :-/
13:15 kados   someone must hav eforgot to run postalias ;-)
13:15 shaun   slef: which one are you?
13:16 slef    shaun: MJ Ray (sorry, I forgot to set IRCNAME again)
13:16 shaun   aah, i know you now ;-)
13:17 slef    Should I be scared and/or watch for the contract killers?
13:17 slef    I've got to leave my terminal for a few minutes. Back in 20 or so.
13:23 shaun   hehe... i'll be very surprised if this renders properly in IE without tweaking...
14:31 shaun   either it was a very long 20 minutes, or slef isn't verbose now.
15:04 shaun   kados: you still there? 7PM GMT cuts off the people in New Zealand - that's 7AM in Wellington
15:05 shaun   but all the same, 8PM is much better for me ;-)
15:08 owen    It doesn't cut them off, it just makes it more inconvenient ;)
15:08 owen    Just ask indradg
15:09 shaun   hehe... but somehow i doubt whether the people at katipo (russ, rach and chris at least) will want to come into work early...
15:11 owen    I'm not saying you're not right about the time being to early, but I think they all telecommute :)
15:15 shaun   hehe
15:16 shaun   ah, the site is looking beautiful... i will have a first draft of the hp up on my staging server by the meeting, if the time stays the same.
15:16 indradg i should hit the bed... early day at work tomorrow
15:19 slef    Didn't notice anyone talking to me. I unset myself /away and then went to cook dinner
15:21 slef    Can someone boot "KISS Madeleine \(OPOCE\)" <Madeleine.Kiss@cec.eu.int> from the list until she learns htf to use an autoreply?
15:27 shaun   how many international sites do we have now?
15:28 kados   how many international sites?
15:29 kados   there's slef, paul, and liblime, then there's chris's blog and my blog
15:29 kados   if that's what you mean
15:31 shaun   well, that makes two true international links, so i'll do a links list
15:31 shaun   is your blog a personal one or at liblime?
15:32 indradg slef, u been spew anti-s/w patent vitriol on the list ;)
15:32 indradg s/spew/spewing/
15:33 indradg g'nite folks... i'm off for good!
15:36 kados   shaun: http://kados.org/cgi-bin/blosxom.cgi/blog/koha
15:36 shaun   ah, good old kados.org ;)
15:37 shaun   i can't remember what the outcome was of that discussion about communal blogging
15:37 kados   owen has a blog ... it's just in chech ;-)
15:37 owen    Yeah, I wish.
15:38 kados   well I think it would be great to have a place on koha.org that grabbed our feeds in RSS and displayed them for all to see
15:39 owen    In fact I found a a blog entry that linked to me today, and it was all in Czech.  I could barely read a word of it
15:39 shaun   thing is, how many devs can be bothered to set up rss feeds?...
15:40 owen    kados and chris, so far :)
15:41 kados   blogs.koha.org
15:42 kados   hehe
15:42 kados   just an idea ;-)
15:42 owen    I like the rss-grab idea, kados.
15:43 shaun   how about the other way round? i.e. all of the blog posts from each developer are collected in an xml file, and then that developer can choose to mirror it on his/her site
15:44 owen    It's possible...but would mean that the central site would have to run the blog software, and each developer would have to have an account
15:44 owen    If the rss-grab was doable, it would mean that devs could use whatever software they wanted, provided it had the capability to spit out an xml feed
15:45 kados   yep ... that's the approach I'd like to see implemented
15:45 shaun   having a central server with the blog software on (separate to kea) is ideal, imo
15:46 kados   all koha.org would need is an xml parser
15:46 owen    shaun: Why do you say that?
15:47 shaun   then the blog is a koha blog, as opposed to a developer's blog with some stuff about koha - and it would be easier for devs who have no intention of making blogs just to talk about specific contributions to be part of the community (like me...)
15:48 owen    Yeah, that's a good argument.
15:48 kados   chris an I use blosxom which means you could just monitor the 'koha' feed
15:48 shaun   I don't know how many people read kados' or chris' blog, but I am quite sure people would be more easily persuaded to subscribe to the RSS of a /koha/ blog, which shows general progress, rather than that of an individual developer with their own specialist area and problems
15:49 owen    Well sure, but the individual developers' posts would be aggregated into a single offical Koha feed, in the scenario kados and I are envisioning
15:50 shaun   Then it could be more like a comfortable. passive medium between IRC and mailing lists - outsiders see what's actually going on.
15:52 shaun   it keeps katipo buildings warm.... especially if it uses flatfiles ;-)
15:53 owen    ?
15:55 owen    I guess shedges and I can't be logged in at the same time from this host :(
15:55 kados   must be
15:56 shaun   doing the website... have you got any ideas for what navigation categories to use? at the moment I have    *  About
15:56 shaun       * The Product
15:56 shaun       * Get Koha
15:56 shaun       * Support
15:56 shaun       * Documentation
15:56 kados    * Demos
15:56 shaun   plus links to developers, test drive and downloads at the top
15:56 kados    * News
15:56 shaun   and links on the side
15:57 kados   faq
15:57 shaun   and news down the right hand column
15:57 shaun   faq, that's the one
15:57 kados   how is 'about different than 'the product'?
15:58 shaun   hmm, i suppose it could be the disambiguation of "the Koha project" and "the Koha product"
15:59 shaun   i.e. about has how it came about, where it is used, while the product focuses on technical specifications, capabilities or features?
15:59 kados   I understand the distinction ... but I'm not sure those terms are best to make it
16:00 shaun   Just "about" then?
16:01 kados   how about 'features'
16:01 kados   and 'about the project'
16:01 shaun   With the new site, I really want to change the attitude - to make Koha into something that you want to buy for your library and get shocked by the fact that it's free.
16:01 shaun   that's good, I'll use that
16:01 kados   I agree
16:02 shaun   so hence I would like to separate off the developers' stuff - while still keeping it a friendly community.
16:03 kados   yep ... it would be good to have a development site and a 'koha marketing' site
16:03 kados   let's hold off on this discussion until we have our real discussion -- you can jump start it by bringing it up in reply to my meeting call
16:03 owen    So maybe a 'get involved' or 'for developers' link
16:04 shaun   this is more stuff that you should know about as RM than stuff specific to the design
16:05 kados   there's going to be a lot of overlap at our meetings
16:05 shaun   I will keep a "developers" link in the top right-hand corner - and when you go to download it there could be a "You can contribute to Koha..." message
16:07 shaun   The developers link should be to do with things like #koha, the mailing lists, CVS, job requests, and of course the blog ;-)
16:07 kados   the koha mailing list is for the public
16:07 shaun   koha-dev, sorry
16:07 kados   right
16:11 shaun   how does documentation work? i.e. where does it stay at the moment, where is it going etc.?
16:11 kados   all documentation is at kohadocs.org
16:12 kados   if you want you could do some fancy xml parsing of the docbook and make it look pretty for the main site
16:12 shaun   so documentation would be better placed as a link, rather than a section of the site then...
16:12 kados   kinda like the mysql documentation
16:12 kados   for now ... unless you want to get fancy
16:12 shaun   but the site will use kea...
16:13 kados   whaat are you using kea for?
16:13 shaun   idinno, but the katipo people do
16:14 owen    shaun, have you talked to Russel about all this?
16:14 shaun   I would use good old php/mysql myself, but kea will be the choice i suppose... if the magic is all done at katipo
16:15 shaun   no - russel is inconveniently at the opposite time zone to me...
16:15 kados   email ;-)
16:16 owen    shaun, all your plans aren't going anywhere if you don't get in touch with Russel, I'm guessing.
16:16 owen    Spooky.
16:16 shaun   hi russ
16:16 shaun   uncanny...
16:16 russ    morning
16:17 kados   russ must have been tipped of by someone at katipo
16:17 shaun   the design is beautiful, russ... but i suppose that's a matter of opinion
16:18 shaun   so, can we talk about kea?
16:18 russ    yeah si tipped me off :-)
16:18 russ    yep sure
16:18 russ    i have to go in about 20 mins though
16:18 russ    to do some kea training for clients, as it happens
16:19 shaun   I'm not sure how kea works... 'spose you don't do free copies ;)
16:19 russ    ah we would love to be in a posistion to open source kea
16:20 russ    but it doesnt have a simple installer that you can run
16:20 owen    shaun, start with "I'm interested in helping out with the Koha.org site?" ;)
16:20 russ    and we need to do some tidying up on it
16:20 shaun   what language is it in?
16:20 shaun   I'm interested in helping out with the Koha.org site. Very, very interested.
16:20 russ    ok cool
16:21 russ    what is your skill set shaun - i am a web developer / designer how has migrated into project management
16:21 russ    s/how/who
16:22 kados   russ: is that the only reason it's not open source? ;-)
16:22 russ    no you'd have top ask chris more on that one
16:23 russ    crikey you can tell i havent had a coffee this morning - my typing is lousy
16:23 chris   kados: its an inhouse project, and as such has all the problems inherent with that
16:23 kados   gotcha
16:23 chris   basically its never been released
16:24 russ    on reflection we should have open sourced it 3-4 years ago
16:24 russ    but anyway...
16:24 chris   so its a bit of a mess :)
16:24 shaun   I started out in design, I do web development now too - php is my first language, then english, and im learning perl for the purpose of koha. my open source experience includes contributor to apache forrest and leader of fles.
16:24 russ    cool
16:26 russ    ok so where to start i guess
16:26 shaun   I was also doing the openoffice.org redesign for a while... but stopped because they are all closed-minded b******s
16:26 russ    if you want to read some stuff about kea, we have broucherware type stuff on the katipo website
16:27 russ    http://www.katipo.co.nz/solutions/contentmanagement/index.html
16:27 russ    and we have online tutorials
16:27 russ    http://www.katipo.co.nz/clients/helpdesk/
16:27 shaun   yes, i have read through all of that - I am interested in the tech specs - how templates are integrated, how it manages content and what formats it uses etc.
16:28 kados   chris: is kea built off html::template?
16:29 russ    before we go too far down this path - we here at katipo aren't too fussy about koha.org continuing to use kea
16:29 chris   not really no
16:30 shaun   what could we use?
16:30 kados   i like html::template
16:30 kados   ;-)
16:30 shaun   my personal opinion: PHP/MySQL all the way...
16:30 kados   that's what the liblime site uses
16:30 russ    i'd have to talk to chris about other systems
16:30 shaun   what are the advantages of using kea?
16:31 chris   tons
16:31 shaun   hehe... carry on
16:31 chris   you have a live site and edit site
16:31 russ    i think we better do up an email to the list
16:31 chris   changes you make dont go live until you trigger them
16:31 chris   its backended by cvs
16:31 russ    it generates real html pages so proper urls
16:31 chris   so you can revert to any version of any page
16:32 shaun   so as the backend does it use xml?
16:32 russ    you can set up page reviews to remind you that you need to go and check a page
16:32 chris   no
16:32 shaun   what does it use?
16:32 kados   sounds sweet
16:32 chris   whatever the file is
16:32 kados   I like the cvs backend
16:32 chris   html, pdf, etc
16:32 shaun   so how do you do templating?
16:33 chris   with a mysql database to track the files and cvs
16:33 chris   you build some kea templates
16:33 russ    we use html pages constructed with ssi
16:33 chris   and when you choose in kea to create a new page, you choose which template
16:33 russ    it also has some smart tags that do things like navigation and breadcrumbs for you
16:34 chris   what?
16:35 chris   im not sure what you mean shaun
16:35 shaun   nvm, regionalised joke
16:36 shaun   so can kea manage multiple sites (e.g. "sales" and developer sites)?
16:36 chris   its managing about 70 sites at the moment
16:36 russ    something like 300 users
16:36 russ    by user i mean content editors
16:37 owen    Man, to heck with open-sourcing this thing.  Sounds like you need to sell it! ;)
16:37 shaun   I meant, like subdomains... developers.koha.org, www.koha.org
16:37 chris   yep thats no problem shaun
16:37 chris   having talked kea up, i also think koha.org would be a good site to try opencms on
16:38 russ    yeah like i said before - we are keen to try something else
16:38 russ    and opencms looks pretty cool
16:38 shaun   and can particular parts be dynamic by themselves, e.g. www.koha.org/blogs or blogs.koha.org which use a separate php system, for example? and, even better, can kea grab dynamic content from another system with a database backend? (i suppose that asks a bit much)
16:39 russ    well cos you have two websites
16:40 russ    you can have kea triggering to the sales website and then if you want other stuff installed on the live site you can do that
16:40 russ    for all our dynamic stuff - like koha for example
16:40 russ    we store the template files in a kea site so that we can roll back and manage who is editing them
16:41 shaun   hmm... i have been blind so far, concentrating on the design - should i assume that the cms will be able to cope?
16:41 russ    but i think if a website redesign is what everyone is after
16:41 russ    then dont worry about the cms
16:41 russ    yeah that is always our approach shaun
16:41 russ    our designer is not a technical person at all
16:41 slef    uh
16:42 slef    blogs
16:42 shaun   excellent
16:42 shaun   blogs... yes
16:42 slef    did no-one want me to set up an otherwayup aggregator of them?
16:42 shaun   russ and chris, have you seen the logs for today (this morning for you)?
16:42 russ    no sorry - i have been watching the british lions play the pumas (rugby) :-)
16:43 slef    otherwayup is running schycyroll/mabloss, which I know is theoretically sound in its blog calculus
16:43 shaun   owen I like the rss-grab idea, kados.
16:43 shaun   shaun how about the other way round? i.e. all of the blog posts from each developer are collected in an xml file, and then that developer can choose to mirror it on his/her site
16:43 shaun   owen It's possible...but would mean that the central site would have to run the blog software, and each developer would have to have an account
16:43 shaun   owen If the rss-grab was doable, it would mean that devs could use whatever software they wanted, provided it had the capability to spit out an xml feed
16:43 shaun   kados yep ... that's the approach I'd like to see implemented
16:43 shaun   shaun having a central server with the blog software on (separate to kea) is ideal, imo
16:43 shaun   kados all koha.org would need is an xml parser
16:43 shaun   owen shaun: Why do you say that?
16:43 shaun   shaun then the blog is a koha blog, as opposed to a developer's blog with some stuff about koha - and it would be easier for devs who have no intention of making blogs just to talk about specific contributions to be part of the community (like me...)
16:43 shaun   owen Yeah, that's a good argument.
16:43 shaun   * owen wonders if it could be both at once...
16:43 shaun   kados chris an I use blosxom which means you could just monitor the 'koha' feed
16:43 shaun   shaun I don't know how many people read kados' or chris' blog, but I am quite sure people would be more easily persuaded to subscribe to the RSS of a /koha/ blog, which shows general progress, rather than that of an individual developer with their own specialist area and problems
16:43 slef    it can accept RDF Site Summary and (at a push) Really Simple Syndication
16:43 shaun   owen Well sure, but the individual developers' posts would be aggregated into a single offical Koha feed, in the scenario kados and I are envisioning
16:44 slef    shaun: paste error
16:44 shaun   sorry!
16:44 shaun   russ: wdyt?
16:48 russ    sorry guys i have to go
16:48 russ    i'll be back in a couple of hours and read the logs
16:48 shaun   ok bye russ, i'll be gone by then though
16:50 shaun   I'm off to bed
16:50 shaun   bye all
16:50 kados   cya
16:59 rach    morning
16:59 kados   morning rach
16:59 kados   is that time slot too early for you?
17:00 kados   I got my NZ time confused by an hour
17:00 rach    it'll be 7am
17:00 rach    so not too bad
17:00 rach    just might not be too coherant until the cafine kicks in :-)
17:00 kados   cool
17:00 kados   :-)
17:01 shedges hi rach
17:01 rach    hi stephen
17:01 rach    it's good - should be all done by the time the phone starts ringing here around 9am
17:28 rach    morning rosalie
17:39 rosa    hi rach
17:39 rosa    7am meeting??
17:39 rach    yerg
17:39 rach    lucky it's a 2 min commute and we don't have web cams here :-)
17:40 rosa    :-)
19:02 kados   chris around?
19:02 chris   slightly
19:02 kados   I"m working on this Koha install and I've run into something I've not seen before ... I"ve ot Options +FollowSymLinks in my koha.conf file but I'm getting the error: ymbolic link not allowed:
19:02 kados   yikes on the spelling ;-)
19:03 kados   any ideas?
19:03 chris   you have <Location />
19:03 chris   Options +FollowSymLinks
19:03 chris   </Location>
19:03 chris   ?
19:03 kados   ahh ... that must be it
19:03 chris   might not be
19:03 kados   it's lilnked to a directory?
19:04 kados   I thought it was a virtualhost setting
19:04 chris   you usually define it for a location or a directory
19:04 chris   (it works on all below as well of course)
19:04 chris   so <Directory /usr/local/koha/intranet/htdocs>
19:04 chris   would be another way .. at least thats the habit im in
19:05 kados   cool thanks
19:05 chris   lemme know if it works
19:05 chris   i just go for the easy answer first :)
19:07 kados   <Directory /var/www/koha22>
19:07 kados   Options +FollowSymLinks
19:07 kados   </Directory>
19:07 kados   still get the same error
19:07 chris   maybe ur not allowed to override
19:08 kados   ahh ... that would be in the main httpd.conf
19:08 chris   yeah
19:08 chris   worht checking
19:09 kados   <Directory />
19:09 kados       Options FollowSymLinks
19:09 kados       AllowOverride none
19:09 kados   </Directory>
19:09 kados   that's in the main httpd.conf
19:09 kados   I changed it to 'all' and it still gives me the error after restarting apache
19:09 chris   hmm dunno whats up then sorry
19:10 kados   ta
19:27 kados   I found the problem
19:27 kados   really strange
19:28 kados   my symlinked dirs were linnked to dirs in /root
19:28 kados   apparantly someone didn't like that ;-)
19:28 kados   and it wasn't selinux cause that's disabled
19:35 chris   cool
19:35 kados   Bristol said they would move to Koha if they could get rid of itsmarc
19:35 kados   i said that Koha's cataloging tools aren't up to par (cause they aren'tfor MARC)
19:36 kados   but it might not take much to get them there
19:36 chris   nope
19:36 kados   (and the state might sponser it)
19:36 chris   just a nicer interface
19:36 kados   yep
19:37 kados   it looks like they maintain their own mirrors of free databases
19:38 kados   I don't see an ITSMARC- database
19:44 kados   plucene note: we could have an index on 'shelf location' and automatically launch a search for nearby items for each of the results
19:44 chris   hmm yeah
19:45 chris   i was thinking that plucene will be most useful stuff that doesnt change
19:45 chris   frequently
19:45 chris   so no item based fields
19:45 chris   if that makes sense
19:45 kados   yep
19:45 chris   we dont want to tell someone something is on the shelf when its just been loaned out
19:45 kados   I agree ... unless there's some really fast way to do indexes that's undocumented
19:45 kados   also ... it's kinda pokey
19:46 kados   (15 minutes till I optimize the index
19:46 chris   so query plucene for biblio data
19:46 kados   (then we can do real tests)
19:46 chris   and then once u have a bunch of biblionumbers
19:46 chris   u can find out item stuff
19:47 kados   exactly
19:47 kados   chris do you think I could just run optimize without rebuilding the inde?
19:49 chris   yeah i reckon so
19:50 chris   not sure how tho :)
19:50 chris   2 secs
19:50 chris   man will tell me
19:50 chris    my $writer = Plucene::Index::Writer->new($path, $analyser, $creat
19:50 chris   e);
19:50 chris          This will create a new Plucene::Index::Writer object.
19:50 chris          The third argument to the constructor determines whether a new index is
19:50 chris          created, or whether an existing index is opened for the addition of new
19:51 chris          documents.
19:51 chris   so i reckon
19:51 kados   ahh ... so 1 is create
19:51 chris   yep
19:51 chris   and im guessing 0 is use existing
19:51 kados   ok ... I'll give it a shot
19:54 shedges kados:  Bristol could keep their Bibliofile software for a fraction of the cost of the complete ITSMarc.
19:54 kados   well ... it's doing something ;-)
19:54 kados   what kind of fraction?
19:54 kados   :-)
19:54 shedges I'd have to look at the numbers for NPL
19:54 shedges I think it's about 1/10
19:54 kados   would their cataloging workflow be affected? (I really need to talk with the catalogers someday soon)
19:55 kados   well that would probably do it
19:55 chris   thats a goodly saving
19:55 shedges right, 'cause they've already done what Bristol wants to do!
19:55 kados   Bibliofile is TLS?
19:56 shedges yep
19:56 kados   TLC even?
19:56 shedges (the old name)
19:56 kados   so ITSMARC is just a TCL-maintained database ... the library can still use Bibliofile to access free sources
19:56 kados   it's amazing how many libraries are falling for this ;-)
19:56 shedges They don't advertise that you can still buy a license for just Bibliofile
19:57 shedges You need BookWhere to grab records, but that's cheap.
19:57 kados   maybe we should set up a mirrored database of LOC and some other large Z39.50 databases and charge to access it ;-)
19:57 shedges Bibliofile is the MARC editor / saver
19:57 kados   ahh
19:57 kados   gotcha
19:57 kados   brb ... dinner overheating ;-)
19:58 shedges if only there was a way to speed up Koha's cataloging...
19:59 shedges (biab)
20:23 shedges kados:  I remember now that WebClarity Software (the BookWhere people) also have started offering a MARC editor that can be added to BookWhere -- http://www.webclarity.info/products/marcnotepad.html
21:05 dean2   Richard, you there?
21:06 dean2   http://staff.katipo.co.nz/gallery/cpag/aaq
21:06 dean2   http://staff.katipo.co.nz/gallery/cpag/aap?full=1
21:06 chris   dean .. wrong channel
21:06 chris   u want to be over in #katipo :)
21:06 dean2   lol
21:07 dean2   oops
21:50 kados   well after the optimize I think it's faster
21:50 kados   http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/cgi-bin/koha/plucene/search.cgi?query=bears
21:50 kados   but still not fast enough
22:17 kados   chris: from the lucene list I'm getting the feeling the plucene is not as fast as lucene ... I may try to install the java version and see how that works
22:22 chris   i suspect that will make integration quite a bit harder
22:24 chris   but it might be worth it if the speed is a big improvement
22:24 chris   i reckon u can still halve the speed by not handing the template all the results
22:24 chris   sorry double the speed
22:25 kados   right ... but even with a small result set searches are taking 4 secs ... I was hoping for instant searching like with google
22:25 chris   right
22:25 kados   we're only talking about 150,000 items here
22:25 chris   yep
22:25 kados   we should be able to return stuff really fast
22:25 chris   hmm
22:26 chris   there is all sorts of overhead
22:27 chris   and google have some serious hardware and an algortithm they wont tell anyone about
22:27 chris   its a good aim .. but will be hard to achieve
22:27 chris   2 seconds id be happy with
22:29 indradg kados, chris : wat exactly are u planning with a plucene / lucene  search?
22:29 chris   im not really planning anything ye
22:29 chris   t
22:29 chris   just exploring possibilities
22:29 indradg sorry if I dont make sense... just woke up and yet to have my first cup of tea :P
22:30 kados   right ... indradg have you seen my arguments for switching our search engine from SLQ to textual?
22:30 indradg right
22:30 chris   i dont know if thats even the way to go too
22:30 chris   it may be that we need to build special search tables
22:30 kados   http://wiki.liblime.com/doku.php?id=koha24rmnotes#searching
22:30 kados   right ...
22:30 chris   basically we want to speed up searching
22:31 kados   and add functionality
22:31 chris   and we are looking for any ideas on how to do it
22:31 kados   boolian, etc.
22:31 chris   yep
22:31 chris   add features while not slowing down
22:31 kados   we need a KOha search syntax
22:31 chris   i could do boolean tomorrow, but searches would take longer .. thats the problem
22:31 indradg have u tried out Namazu ?
22:31 chris   i havent
22:32 indradg do check it out... in case you are looking at full-text indexing
22:33 chris   its a tricky one
22:33 chris   and what makes it tricky to do in sql is like '%something'
22:33 chris   since as soon as you do that
22:33 kados   no indexes
22:33 chris   bang mysql cant use an index
22:34 chris   and unfortunately patrons never remember the names of authors and books properly ;)
22:34 chris   if we could do author='something'
22:34 chris   no problem :)
22:35 chris   joshua, u might know this
22:35 chris   in marc_word
22:35 chris   is author split up?
22:35 chris   chris,cormack
22:35 chris   becomes 2 rows
22:35 kados   yep
22:35 chris   right
22:35 kados   so we need to do a join
22:35 kados   and that's costly
22:36 chris   oh its split over 2 tables?
22:36 kados   no ... but you need a join to do two terms
22:36 chris   you do?
22:36 chris   im thinking
22:36 kados   :-)
22:36 chris   i type
22:36 chris   chris cormack
22:37 indradg i'm using Namazu for a full-text indexed search through about 25 GBs of autofs-mounted ISO images which are linked to 856u field in my catalog
22:37 kados   well you can't do select from marc_word where tagsubfield=245a and value=chris and value=cormack
22:37 chris   ahh theres no ordering involved?
22:37 kados   you need to join on the same table
22:37 chris   yikes
22:37 kados   ordering?
22:37 chris   thats a big table
22:37 kados   yep ... it's huge
22:38 chris   and then u double it
22:38 kados   yep
22:38 kados   or triple
22:38 kados   etc.
22:38 chris   i was thinking it was 245a 1 and 245a 2
22:38 indradg hmmm
22:38 kados   nope
22:38 chris   suck
22:39 chris   if it was you could do it with ors and  and
22:39 kados   it gets even more complicated with the 'see also'
22:40 kados   so you normally just do 245a ... but there's a bunch more places author can be stored in MARC
22:40 chris   ((tagsubfield=245a and order=1 and value=chris) or (tagsubfield=245a and order=2 and value=chris)) and ((tagsubfield=245a and order=1 and value=cormack) or (tagsubfield=245a and order=1 and value=cormack))
22:40 chris   somethign like that
22:40 kados   and you don't want to miss any of them
22:40 chris   yeah
22:40 chris   we should look at namazu
22:40 chris   25gb is a lot
22:40 chris   is it fast indradg ?
22:41 kados   hehe
22:41 indradg chris, yep!
22:42 kados   it's got deb packages too ;-)
22:42 indradg the initial index creation is a bit of a killer.... too abt 6 hrs or so to finish... so I left it on as an over-night job and went home ;)
22:43 indradg s/too/took/
22:43 chris   right
22:44 kados   indradg: so you've integrated this with Koha already?
22:44 chris   id expect that .. my theory is that if you want fast searches building hte indexes will take time
22:44 indradg kados, not really... I integrated the namazu cgi interface into my CMS frontend to the library
22:45 kados   can we try it out somewhere?
22:52 kados   chris: http://lucene.apache.org/java/docs/benchmarks.html
22:54 kados   it's entirely possible that the reason it takes google so long to update is that it's index is running thw hole time ;-)
22:54 kados   whole even ;-)
22:54 kados   rankings that is ... not new stuff
22:54 chris   yeah
23:00 kados   huh ... wikipedia uses lucene
23:23 indradg kados, got disconnected... did u get my last msg
23:24 kados   indradg: no
23:24 indradg indradg kados, try this -> http://59.93.161.79/cgi-bin/namazu.cgi
23:24 indradg indradg CSS is screwed up at the moment
23:24 indradg indradg and use the ICONIP repository and u can search on genes, algorithms, gene expression, genome, artificial intelligence
23:26 kados   that's the kind of speed I'm talking about!
23:26 kados   so could you send me your indexer?
23:27 kados   (and the cgi too)
23:27 indradg brb... on oh
23:27 indradg ph
23:27 kados   k
23:36 indradg back
23:38 kados   cool
23:38 indradg kados, i haven't done anything extra in this demo ... d/led Namazu, dumped a CD full of documents, used the cmd-line indexer of Namazu, put the CGI script in the place u want and bingo! ur search engine is ready, sans any customization
23:38 kados   right
23:38 kados   so we'd have to dump out the titles into files right?
23:38 indradg yes
23:39 kados   I wonder if we can put 150,000 files in one directory
23:39 chris   be worth looking at the docs
23:39 indradg yep
23:39 kados   and how does it know 'title' 'author' 'date' etc?
23:39 kados   were the files XML?
23:40 chris   rtfm :)
23:40 kados   :-)
23:40 indradg nope... the files in my case are pdfs and rpms
23:40 chris   i havent had the chance to say that for ages :)
23:40 kados   hehe
23:40 indradg namazu will index thru the text desc in RPM  headers as well
23:40 chris   thats cool
23:41 indradg we might need a marc file indexer
23:41 chris   im hoping there is a framework you can use to build a harverster that it can use to index
23:41 chris   yeah
23:41 indradg but what is MARC.pm for ? ;)
23:43 chris   Document filters
23:43 chris   mknmz automatically identifies target file types and performs the appropriate document filtering. For HTML documents, filtering includes the extraction of <title> or the deletion of HTML tags. The filtering is dealt with by document filters in $(datadir)/$(PACKAGE)/filter. The standard document filters are described below.
23:43 chris   so we could use kohas export to marc feature
23:43 chris   and then write a marc filter perhaps
23:43 kados   I think there's a MARC2XML somewhere out there
23:44 kados   if that would make it easier
23:44 kados   I"ve really got to get some sleep ;-)
23:44 kados   indradg: thanks for the tips
23:44 indradg np :)
23:44 chris   night kados
23:45 indradg nite kados
23:45 rach    nite
23:45 kados   g'nite all
02:38 paul    (hdl, tu m'appelles en visio ?)
02:38 hdl     hi
02:40 michael bonjour ;-)
02:44 michael j'aurais une contribution à proposer concernant Koha
02:44 michael une contribution typiquement "discothécaire" il s'agit d'une "liste d'autorité"
02:44 michael il serait possible que je la saisisse afin qu'elle puisse être réutilisable après coup par des BM
02:46 michael ... il s'agit de l'index PCDM 4 qui est utilisé dans le champ 686 pour indexer les docs sonores musicaux
02:46 michael http://discothecaires.ouvaton.org/article.php3?id_article=74
02:46 michael cette index PCDM 4 = Principe de Classification des Documents Musicaux version 4
02:46 michael est présent dans le livre "pro" Musiques en bibliothèques (éd. Cercle de la Librairie)
02:47 michael je ne veux pas vous importuner mais je me disais que si qqn (moi en l'occurence) pouvait saisir cette liste fermée
02:47 michael et l'exporter sous forme .sql ça pourrait franchement faire gagner du temps à d'autres bibliothèques qui souhaiteraient indexer leurs fonds de docs sonores
02:47 michael avec cette indexation PCDM 4... vous voyez où je veux en venir?
02:47 michael ou je suis pas clair du tout ?
02:48 michael la PCDM4 est comme une Dewey bcp moins complexe mais adpatée aux docs sonores
02:51 michael cette liste pourrait être saisie là : ../admin/authorised_values.pl
02:51 michael et si elle est exportable en .sql c'est royal ;-)
02:51 michael après i faut "l'associer" au champ UNIMARC 686... et elle est full-fonctionnelle
02:58 michael bieng... je pars au travail... je vais voir si c'est vraiment viable comme idée et pense le proposer sur la liste ?
02:58 michael bon courage pour cette semaine ;-)
03:19 hdl     paul, on m'a dit qu'un mémoire avait été fait à Bordeaux mis en ligne sur Wikipédia et qui parle de Koha de façon élogieuse et développée. Tu savais ?
03:19 paul    non.
03:19 hdl     on = fr. Vianney
03:20 hdl     et que Linux Pratique y avait consacré un article.
03:20 hdl     C'est pour ajouter au Linux Today de S Hedges.
03:22 hdl     Au fait, il y a des lists bibliothèques Fr auxquelles il faut que je m'abonne... Tu peux m'indiquer lesquelles ?
03:23 paul    je trouve pas sur wikipedia
03:23 paul    http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%C3%A9gorie:Sciences_de_l%27information_et_des_biblioth%C3%A8ques
03:23 paul    ADBS-INFOS
03:23 paul    et biblio-fr
03:23 paul    et puis il y a biblioacid.org
03:24 paul    (tenu par nicolas Morin, entre autres)
03:24 Sylvain hdl tu as eu le lien avant que je ne sois déconnecté ?
03:31 Sylvain ??
03:34 paul    (rien vu)
03:34 paul    (sylvain)
03:35 Sylvain http://wikisource.org/wiki/Les_logiciels_libres_en_documentation pour le mémoire de Sébastien Thébault, je pense que c'est cleui dont tu parlais (tu l'as peut être trouvé depuis ...)
03:44 hdl     merci sylvain.
03:50 hdl     biblioacid.org n'est pas référencé sur Google.fr
04:08 rach    bonjou - what is "Diffusion de contenu en ligne"
04:08 rach    http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=fr%7Cen&u=http://wikisource.org/wiki/Les_logiciels_libres_en_documentation-_II-Apr%25C3%25A8s_utilisation%25C2%25A0:_des_manques_%25C3%25A9vidents
04:08 rach    and only the wiki has it
04:09 si      Diffusion of contents on line
04:10 si      is what babelfish has to say
04:10 rach    yes I got that - but what do you think it means?
04:10 si      but I suspect that doesn't help a great deal
04:10 Sylvain It seems to be the ability for users to publish themselves
04:10 si      that was what I was going to guess
04:10 Sylvain it would be correct as only mediawiki gets the cross for it
04:10 si      sbstitute distribution for diffusion
04:10 Sylvain s/would/should
04:10 rach    ah yes
04:12 rach    ta
07:41 kados   hello all
08:34 paul    hi kados (perfect french in your mail to infos ;-) )
08:40 kados   thanks ;-)
09:37 slef    can someone set a text colour on the irc logs, please?
09:37 slef    yellow on yellow is a bit hard to read :-/
09:54 kados   http://www.oclc.org/research/projects/xisbn/default.htm
09:55 owen    What's the ISBN problem?
09:55 kados   well like with amazon content ... if we don't have the exact edition that amazon has we can't display their content for the item (even if it's the same 'biblio')
09:56 kados   xISBN finds all 'related' ISBNs given one ISBN
09:56 owen    So you could list similar versions of a book when looking at the detail screen
09:56 kados   right
09:57 kados   there are lots of possibilities ...
09:57 kados   this is one of those things that I was going to start myself (that I probably would never have gotten around to)
09:58 kados   kinda like my idea for the P2P cataloging software with integrated MARC editior ;-)
09:58 owen    Yeah, written in XUL!
09:58 kados   there's an idea I had what ... like 5 years ago
09:58 kados   yea .. XUL would be the way to go ;-)
09:59 owen    slef: I don't see any yellow on yellow in the logs
10:01 hdl     paul : Pour les grilles, ca yest, j'affiche cela dans le mar_top.inc. Mais je voudrais utiliser un tableau pour faire apparaître cela dans la même ligne que le login. Mais le tableau me donne automatiquement des bordures, même quand je les paramètres à 0... !
10:01 paul    commite en l'état, je regarderai
10:07 Sylvain Little question : what is for you the best way to store titles of a cd for example or novels in a book in order to help the search for member ?
10:08 owen    Doesn't a keyword search pick these up if they're in a notes field?
10:08 Sylvain er maybe, in fact it's a question which has been asked to me, I've never done cataloguing so I was looking for an idea
10:08 Sylvain ;)
10:09 Sylvain I'm going to have a look at note field
10:10 owen    One of the problems we ran into was that the notes weren't displayed by the details screen.
10:11 Sylvain :( it is less intersting then ...
10:15 owen    Sylvain: I'm wrong--it looks like 2.2 displays all the notes correctly
10:15 owen    http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?bib=143335
10:16 Sylvain ok, thanks a lot, seems to be a good answer for my custoer
10:16 Sylvain +m
10:20 owen    friendly time-zone-appropriate greeting, shaun!
10:21 shaun   hi (it works all the time)
10:23 shaun   darn... rach joined about 8 minutes after I left last night...
10:25 Sylvain 2.2.3 roadmap seems intersting paul :)
10:25 paul    ;-)
10:26 Sylvain 2 times I try writing interesting in 3 lines and two times I miss it :)
10:27 shaun   is there anybody knowledgeable/authoritative about the new site's launch date? I was thinking about making it accompany 2.4 - make it something big
10:28 shaun   get slashdotted ;-)
10:31 owen    I guess it all depends on when you finish it, shaun ;)
10:32 shaun   the concept art consists of quite a bit of stuff advertising the 2.4 release
10:37 slef    owen: it's actually default-on-yellow, but my default text colour is yellow-on-navy (easier to read, usually).
10:59 hdl     Paul : Pourquoi ne pas permettre de lier des types d'éléments à des fwk pour aider à la saisie ?? On aurait un élément Type dans les biblio_Framework et on l'ajouterait automatiquement au 686 a ou autre champ MARC type de document...? Une idée en passant.
11:00 paul    on me l'a déjà suggéré, hdl ;-) (à voir plus tard, sur la 2.4, vu que ca change la BD)
11:17 hdl     OK paul. Pour obtenir la valeur d'une liste de choix <Select> dans une page HTML, on fait comment ?
11:28 hdl     Kados, how do you use a selected value in the same HTML page ? Does One HAS TO use a Javascript ? Or Can you get the vaule with an HTML Trick ?
11:28 owen    hdl, what do you mean? (I think kados is away from his computer)
11:32 hdl     One has a select choice to make in an HTML page,
11:33 hdl     For Instance, Mr or Mrs, Can I make the value appear elsewhere in th HTML Page... without using Javascript ....
11:33 owen    No.  You've got to use Javascript.
11:34 hdl     Thanks for playing anyway.
11:34 hdl     ;)
11:34 owen    Why not use Javascript?
11:34 hdl     While saying this, it seemed so Obvious.
11:35 hdl     I didn't want to make too many little Javascript Functions.
11:35 hdl     Sorry.
11:35 owen    Yeah, I know what you mean.
11:41 hdl     Moreover, I am touching Code within buttons and didn't want to break anything !!!