IRC log for #koha, 2004-09-22

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
14:01 paul hi logbot ;-)
14:02 matias-UN hi people...
14:03 paul hi matias
14:03 matias-UN can I change my nickname...?
14:03 matias-UN I didnŽt know there was a string limit...
14:04 chris /nick newnickname
14:04 chris without the space at the front
14:04 UNLP-Phys ok...thanks...
14:05 rach Matias - it might have been easier to "say" your name :-)
14:07 UNLP-Phys yeah...I was thinking that...
14:07 rach :-)
14:07 rach but it's good to know where you are from
14:07 rach we might get a few more straglers - but shall we start with introductions
14:07 chris sounds good
14:07 rach Chris you're at the top of the list :-)
14:08 paul ladies & gentlemen, let me introduce the guy that commited that so nice label printing module in 2.1.2 !!!
14:08 paul it's matias
14:08 rach Great work Matias
14:09 matias ja ja...ok...thank you so much...!!!
14:09 rosa rosa is Rosalie Blake, librarian from Horowhenua, NZ
14:10 matias thanks Paul or that...
14:10 matias for that
14:10 matias ;-)
14:11 JYL JYL is a newbie interested in documentation and translation, testing 2.0 & 2.2
14:11 paul mmm... i tried to announce 2.1.2 public release on koha mailing list :
14:11 paul <>: Name service error for
14:11 paul    type=MX: Host not found, try again
14:11 slef Apologies first of all. Because I thought this meeting was at 1800Z, I'm elsewhere too now (1900Z)
14:11 rach paul we're having trouble this morning
14:11 rach one of our servers got swapped last night
14:11 paul don't forget to say you're french JYL  :D
14:11 sad-hu_ hello, sad-hu is Matti Lassila, I did the finnish translation
14:11 JYL YYYEEEAAHHH !! Bravo
14:12 rach nice to meet you Matti
14:12 paul hello matti.
14:12 paul what I find interesting with this meeting is that there are more and more europeans.
14:12 rach and JYL - which in my head I'm pronouncing Jill by the way
14:13 JYL sounds good for me rach !
14:13 paul JYL means Jean Yves Lemaire
14:13 rach Si is Simon Blake who is the one who was playing with the server late last night, so he's still asleep
14:13 rach despite my best efforts to wake him up
14:14 rach skoba looks to be away
14:14 rach tim are you about?
14:14 paul another ppl speaking french ;-)
14:14 tim I'm here.
14:15 rach can you do your intro :-)
14:15 owen kados is Joshua Ferraro, also from the Nelsonville Public Library, but it doesn't look like he's around
14:15 matias I think IŽm gonna have to learn some french... ;-)
14:15 rach me to
14:15 JYL It shouldn't be a problem !
14:16 matias ja the way...sorry my english..IŽll improve it...I promise... :-)
14:16 tim would like to help, but don't know enough yet.
14:16 chris ur from west liberty public library right tim?
14:16 skoba sorry, i wont't be here that night cos' of family afair (i say hello to all (poor english) but i log the chan tonight) bonne nuit les enfants......
14:16 rach you said something very helpful the other day = we always need newbies to point out where we've been captured by our own cleverness :-)
14:17 tim Yes I am chris
14:17 paul skoba => logbot is here for irc logging :
14:18 rach cool
14:18 chris i think that is everyone?
14:18 rach Yep we have a short agenda
14:19 rach First shall we do the volunteer "positions" ?
14:20 rach The first is Kaitiaki, which has been done well by Pat Eyler over the last few years, but he's got busy with work
14:20 slef Small point of order: if the meeting details change, can it be a new post rather than a reply, please?
14:20 rach and I think his work policy might have changed, so hasn't been able to keep it up unfortunatly
14:20 rach AH yes certainly - sorry slef
14:21 rach How long do you have?
14:21 rach So is there anyone else who would like to be the Kaitiaki?
14:22 paul yes : you ;-)
14:22 rach sorry - anyone else other than me :-)
14:23 rach does anyone object to it being me?
14:23 JYL NO !
14:23 owen If only we had a tiara for rach...
14:23 rach and a wand :-)
14:23 russ owen, i'll sort one out for her today
14:23 JYL congratulations rach !
14:24 paul kudos rach
14:24 paul how do you say kaitiaki for a girl in maori ?
14:24 rach cool - thanks :-)
14:24 chris the same paul
14:24 paul Rachel Hamilton, Koha kaitiaki. Sounds nice...
14:25 rach which brings us quickly to the other volunteer position I think we need
14:25 paul yep
14:25 rach which is website editor
14:26 rach who doesn't need to do HTML if they don't want
14:26 paul slef are you still here ? if yes, it may be better to speak 1st of release managers/maintainers ?
14:26 rach ah ok sure paul
14:27 rach all righty - 2.2 release date and maintainer....
14:27 paul I think I must write some things here & now
14:27 slef paul: I'm here, but intermittently able to look at the screen.
14:27 paul ok slef
14:27 paul the 2.2 status :
14:27 paul i've released a 2.1.2 today.
14:28 paul it's still in unstable branch. I've something like 15 bugs to squash.
14:28 paul (coming from 3days tests with Ecole des Mines de Nantes)
14:28 paul none of them are blocking, but most are really annoying.
14:28 chris right
14:28 paul the barcode generator is included.
14:28 slef Should I be marking 2.0 bugs FIXED, or reversioning 2.2 so you can check they're fixed for that too?
14:28 paul in 2.1.2
14:29 slef Is that botf or another one?
14:29 paul slef : my problem with what you do with the 2.0 branch is that i've no mail like with sourceforge cvs.
14:29 slef barcodes on the fly helper
14:29 paul so i can't merge your 2.0 bugfixes on 2.2 branch :-(
14:30 owen I think many of us don't know what's going on with 2.0
14:30 paul it generates nice PDF page with barcodes on it.
14:30 slef I can render 2.0 bugfixes in whatever format you want, but no-one has asked for anything until now.
14:30 paul with continuous barcode, or selected inventory.
14:30 matias :-)
14:30 slef So don't you go all :-( here now over stuff you never said before.
14:31 owen Are you signed up for the Koha-CVS list slef?
14:31 paul i hadn't the time to ask slef. I admit.
14:31 rosa sounds cool to me, slef
14:31 slef paul: what does the barcode printer require?
14:31 paul yes owen, but slef uses arch, not the sourceforge cvs.
14:31 paul it's in 2.1.2 release notes ;-)
14:31 paul PDF::API2
14:31 slef owen: I didn't know it existed.
14:32 paul wow ! you didn't know this list exists. Too bad we never spoke of it before.
14:32 slef paul: is that in distributions?
14:32 paul distributions ?
14:32 owen[…]listinfo/koha-cvs
14:32 slef like packaged for debian, fedora, mandrake and so on?
14:33 paul i don't know.
14:33 paul maybe, it's a very common perlpackage
14:34 paul PDF::API2 is not on mandrake distrib.
14:34 paul can't answer for others distros
14:34 slef owen: is there a version without the diffs?
14:34 paul however, the 2.2 status :
14:34 paul the 2.1.2 will probably be the last one in unstable tree
14:34 paul the next one should be a 2.2RC1, in stable tree.
14:35 paul it's really useable, & I think I was too slow to release official 2.0.0
14:35 paul in France, many libraries were waiting for 2.0.0 even when 2.0.0RC4 was released.
14:35 owen slef: a version of the koha-cvs list?  Not that I know of.
14:36 paul So I think it's better to release soon, & produce bugfixes more often.
14:36 chris slef: its in debian, at least in testing and unstable it is
14:36 paul I need 3 things to rlease 2.2 :
14:36 paul * LDAP connections fixes. It'll take care of this
14:37 slef What will?
14:37 paul (i'll, sorry)
14:37 paul * some changes in plugins to find editor from ISBN & collection selector
14:38 paul * MARC21 SQL files.
14:38 paul this last * needs help from MARC21 libraries.
14:38 paul in the 2.2 installer, the user can select various files for installing, to have a well working DB
14:38 rach Do we have any MARC21 libraries here now?
14:38 paul something like (for france)
14:38 paul * UNIMARC default biblio structure
14:39 paul * UNIMARC parameters for multimedia framework
14:39 paul * systmeprefs in french & for france
14:39 paul * UNIMARC default authority structure
14:39 paul * unimarc parameters for various authorities types (like NC for Common Names, NP for Propers Names)...
14:40 paul & complete "sample DB"
14:40 paul so what i'm hoping is a library that could help building nice MARC21 files.
14:41 slef Are the tables the same as 2.0?
14:41 paul not exactly
14:41 slef Is there a guide to differences?
14:41 paul in MARC biblio, the difference is in the "framework" column
14:41 paul otherwise, it's the same DB for MARC
14:42 paul for MARC authorities, it's a copy of MARC biblio with frameworks
14:42 paul there are no technical description of the diffs
14:42 paul i'll modify the DB structure schema ASAP
14:43 paul are those minor explanations enough ?
14:44 rach Slef you think one of your customers might be able to help, if Paul does a good guide so that the data can be migrated from 2.0 to 2.2?
14:44 slef Enough to see that you need a 2.2 testbed library to design this, or a really safe upgrade script.
14:44 rach yes that sounds fair
14:44 paul the updater tool is untested, but the updatedatabase script has been updated on every DB change
14:45 rach Slef and Paul can you work that out between yourselves, when you've both got a bit more time ?
14:45 paul ok.
14:46 rach excellent :-)
14:46 rach yup :-)
14:46 paul (so i'll be a little less here in the next 3-4 weeks)
14:46 matias congratulations :-)
14:47 rach so best to get things done before hand?
14:47 paul (thanks. It's my 3rd little guy...)
14:47 paul ??? rach ???
14:47 JYL I'm volunteer to test the updater script Paul !
14:47 paul ok, thanks JYL
14:47 paul i'll let you know how to do this from a 2.0.0 install
14:48 paul (it's written in 2.1.2 release notes in fact ;-) )
14:48 paul (iirc)
14:48 JYL Can only test it on my Sarge Debian install...
14:48 paul i'll have to migrate my customers too, so i'll have to do some tests too
14:48 paul the question now is :
14:49 paul * what do we do with the 2.0 branch ?
14:49 paul * when do we swap to 2.2 release manager to 2.2 release maintainer ?
14:49 paul * who will be 2.2 release maintainer ?
14:49 paul slef, any opinion on 1st questiion ?
14:50 rach Sleft how hard has it been to be 2.0 release maintainer?
14:50 paul I already have said to rachel I was suggestion to be 2.2 release maintainer & let emiliano & argentina team (matias) be 2.4 release manager.
14:51 paul s/suggestion/suggesting
14:51 matias I think...
14:52 matias we are open to contribute with all that weŽve made...
14:52 matias of course, all those things that people like... :-)
14:53 paul emiliano & I had a long IRC discussion a few days ago.
14:53 paul I think he is aware that being release manager means commiting code, but also a lot of other things :
14:53 paul * accepting/rejecting new ideas
14:53 paul * building & testing releases
14:53 matias yeah...thatŽs why IŽm telling you this...
14:54 paul * dealing with multi-marc & multi-countries questions.
14:54 slef paul: I would continue 2.0.x until 2.2.1
14:54 matias I think it would be a better idea to propose another release manager..
14:54 emiliano Hi everybody
14:54 paul welcome emiliano.
14:55 paul we were speaking of 2.4 release manager.
14:55 matias hello...
14:55 slef rach: fairly difficult until the arch move, then fairly easy, but certain 2.2 developers don't answer bugs emails.
14:55 paul I was suggesting you as 2.4 release manager.
14:55 paul matias seems not so happy with this idea
14:55 paul am i missing something ?
14:56 matias no...I am happy... :)
14:56 paul so why do you think it would be a better idea to propose someone else ?
14:58 matias as I was saying...
14:58 matias we are open to contribute...
14:58 matias we are open to work on bug fixing...
14:59 matias and to contribute with new ideas...
14:59 emiliano I think Matias wants to say that being release manager
14:59 emiliano is a very responsable position
15:00 matias exactly... ;-)
15:00 emiliano and we have some requeriments
15:00 emiliano to accomplish
15:00 emiliano very urgent
15:00 chris the release manager doesnt have to be a developer
15:01 chris if anyone else wants to volunteer :-)
15:01 emiliano Paul?
15:01 paul mmm...
15:01 paul I can't do everything
15:02 rach he can't be 2.2 maintainer *and* 2.4 release manager
15:02 paul i'm ok to be release manager OR rleease maintainer
15:02 emiliano we can help you
15:02 paul right ;-)
15:02 matias yeap
15:02 paul what do you mean exactly by "help" ?
15:02 slef I would volunteer, but I think that 2.0 should continue into 2.2's early life and I now think that other developers are cross with me about the arch move (but didn't say before).
15:02 emiliano I mean that we can distribute the tasks
15:03 chris yep, i agree that 2.0 should continue for a while self
15:03 chris slef even :)
15:03 rach yes I agree too :-)
15:03 paul emiliano, I think that the good question is the timing one.
15:04 paul for me, the 2.4 official release does not have to be released urgently
15:04 emiliano ok I agree
15:04 emiliano we need it urgently
15:04 emiliano but could start
15:04 paul so, the main problem is that you will be release manager for the 1st time.
15:05 paul and that may be frightening no ?
15:05 emiliano jajaja
15:05 emiliano could be
15:05 matias :-)
15:05 emiliano but the real question is
15:05 emiliano what is 2.4?
15:05 emiliano what must include
15:05 paul so, a good news : before being release manager for Koha, i never had beenr release manager ;-)
15:06 paul yes, you're right. But that's a question we have 2 months or something like that to define.
15:06 owen How about this: emiliano and his team are named release managers, and ask Paul for help when they have questions?
15:06 chris emiliano: yep that is the question, but thats something we can all discuss i think ur roadmap is a good start
15:06 emiliano ok
15:07 paul and even if you feel too bad release manager, i can take the role.
15:07 rach sounds good to me
15:07 emiliano jajaja
15:07 paul but i'm sure you will be a good release manager.
15:07 chris the way id do it, is concentrate on doing the urgent things you need first
15:07 emiliano ok in this case I agree
15:07 rach Excellent
15:08 chris as 2.2 hasnt been released yet, so like paul says 2.4 isnt urgent .. then when you have done the things u need urgently can work more on the release manager role
15:08 paul emiliano : do you still think an official mail cuold be a good thing ?
15:08 emiliano official mail?
15:08 paul if yes => rach, as kaitiaki, you should take care of it.
15:09 paul yes, you asked for a mail for your boss.
15:09 emiliano yes
15:09 emiliano I think so
15:09 paul so, ask rachel ;-)
15:09 chris :)
15:09 rach yes I can do that :-)
15:09 emiliano I wish to clear one thing
15:09 emiliano In Argentina is there
15:09 emiliano 2 projects related with Koha
15:10 emiliano I hope that the National Ministry
15:10 emiliano of Education could help to enforce
15:10 emiliano our actual efforts
15:10 emiliano because of this I need the mail
15:11 paul in france, we have 2 ministries concerned by ILS : the culture & the education. Is it the same in Argentina ?
15:11 rach ok - emiliano, can you please e-mail me at
15:11 emiliano ok
15:12 rach and let me know to whom I should address the mail and any other details it needs to have
15:12 emiliano no paul one only in the same Ministry
15:12 rach I can send a letter as a PDF for you
15:12 emiliano ok
15:12 Denis hello all
15:13 paul another frenchy...
15:13 Denis hi Paul
15:13 rach bonjour denis
15:13 Denis hi rach
15:13 paul i'm please to introduce Denis Lieppe, from Sorbonne university.
15:13 rach hi stephen
15:13 shedges hi all
15:13 paul user of Koha 2.0.0 in it's library (research)
15:13 paul hi stephen
15:13 slef So, who is each RM?
15:13 owen I'm pleased to introduce Stephen Hedges, director of the Nelsonville Public Library in Ohio
15:13 paul rach, i let you summarize
15:14 rach 2.0 = Sleft
15:14 rach 2.2 = Paul
15:14 rach 2.4 = Emiliano
15:14 chris -t
15:14 rach erg - sorry slef
15:14 rach And we expect 2.0 to need to keep going for a while yet
15:15 Denis all right
15:15 slef Until 2.2.1 or beyond?
15:15 rach 2.2.1 I would hope
15:15 slef Until 2.2.1's release date or beyond?
15:15 Denis big "bravo" to Paul for 2.2
15:15 slef (sorry, realised that didn't make sense)
15:15 rach not indefinitly
15:15 rach shouldn't be a life sentance :-)
15:16 slef OK, as there's a couple of things I'd like to hack into 2.4
15:16 rach Slef I would think realistically until you've converted your customers to the new version is a good "rule of thumb"
15:16 rach that's what we have done with 1.2 basically
15:17 chris perhaps we should organise a 2.4 meetin at some point? or at least a 2.4 discussion on the devel list?
15:17 slef chris++
15:17 emiliano I'll be happy
15:17 rach yes that is a good idea - there are a few more things to sort out before we all get sucked into the fun of planning the next version :-)
15:17 paul an IRC meeting is quite complex because of worldwide koha spread
15:17 rach yep
15:18 rach so a couple more volunteer positions
15:18 paul so a koha-dev discussion is better, with a "wiki" summary
15:18 chris yep, a discusion on the lists might be the easiest to start with
15:18 chris yep paul
15:18 rach Russ has kindly volunteered to do some QA for the new release
15:18 russ yep sure
15:18 paul (denis, stay here, pls, we will speak of doc project soon. You should be interested)
15:19 slef emiliano: will you take charge of summarising the discussion?
15:19 owen Great news.  Thanks Russ!
15:19 emiliano ok
15:19 rach and Mike has volunteered to be in charge of sorting out the website stuff
15:19 chris yay mike
15:19 rach so that we get a bit more coherance going
15:19 jmlongo Hi everybody... sorry I'm late!
15:19 paul good news, good news...
15:19 rach something I am *very* happy to hear
15:20 emiliano Hi Martin
15:20 matias hi Martin
15:20 emiliano Martin is our official translator
15:20 slef Are we onto documentation or website now?
15:20 Denis Denis more tired than Paul ;-)
15:20 rach oh hi Martin
15:20 emiliano he's working enhacing .po files
15:20 paul ok. hi martin.
15:20 rach OK quickly then ... Documentation
15:20 rach before you all fall asleep
15:21 paul ;-)
15:21 Denis lol
15:21 jmlongo Hi  :)
15:21 slef Can we add .po files to the end of the meeting?
15:21 paul (about .po translation tool)
15:22 jmlongo no prob from me
15:22 rach Documentation. For this, i've some news. I've met neodoc company ( and have a financial proposal for hosting & helping doc organizing. We just have to find funds & define strategy (ie : do we want to have 1 common doc in english with various translation ? how to manage the diffs between MARC21 & UNIMARC ? ...)
15:23 slef Do we know jferraro's opinion of this?
15:23 paul does anyone have something to say or are you waiting for more infos from me ?
15:23 JYL JYL is looking for an english manual first !
15:23 shedges are we like to find any funds?
15:23 paul one question after another...
15:23 JYL Let's concentrate on one good english manual first (Proposal!)
15:23 rach do they write the documentation?
15:23 paul NO.
15:23 rach OK
15:23 paul they provide tools to write common documentation.
15:23 emiliano ok
15:24 paul on a web based interface.
15:24 paul I think that's what we really lack today.
15:24 slef I am worried by as it seems bigger on process and technology than writing.
15:24 rach or is that not right?
15:24 emiliano but need volunteers for writing
15:24 slef Yes, the problem is writing.
15:24 Denis Would the manual on-line or a printed-one?
15:24 paul for neodoc, it's XML technology
15:25 Denis ok
15:25 paul so can produce PDF & HTML versions as well as anything else
15:25 slef jferraro has a draft of a sysadmin manual, which I will help with
15:25 chris yeah that sysadmin manual is comig along nicely
15:25 rach yep it looks like a good tool, but we don't have much to publish yet :-)
15:26 paul the question of the chicken & the egg... (frenchism ?)
15:26 rach yes
15:26 slef So we need to find librarians who will write, or learn enough library to write it ourselves, and give those doing the writing whatever they want.
15:26 JYL Soory guys, but in my opinion we need manuals to reassure our librarians
15:26 jmlongo exactly... :)
15:26 shedges Someone needs to be the "documentation" tyrant and dictate what is done -- and where
15:26 chris yep
15:26 paul everybody agrees I think.
15:26 slef Put neodoc in the maybe/later stack for now.
15:26 paul a few months ago, I asked for help on french ML
15:26 rach that's why I asked really - is it a problem that technology can solve? or is it a "people problem" that we need some people to actuallly do it
15:27 Denis do you know the Macromedia e-Help software?
15:27 paul I got only 2 answers.
15:27 JYL Stephen you're a master of documentation until now
15:27 slef Denis: is it free software?
15:27 paul rach => i don't know.
15:27 paul slef => no
15:27 Denis no
15:27 chris i think we need people, i like stephens answer we need a documentation tyrant
15:27 paul but that's technology denis loves ;-)
15:27 rach well good tools can help - if people *like* using it then they might do more
15:27 Denis but it is very...helpful to build an help
15:28 paul shedges => do you want to be doc dictator ?
15:28 chris who should work close with a release manager and we should make it our policy for the future
15:28 chris no new release without accompanying documentation
15:29 rach so we should have a "documentor" who works with the release manager
15:29 Denis excuse me my cat is asking me to open the door
15:29 paul & who should release often/release soon documentation to be able to translate into various languages.
15:29 rach yes
15:29 Denis i am back
15:29 JYL Stephen I'm your servitor !
15:29 rach So I think we need to attract some people interested in this to the project
15:29 JYL be the tyrant of our common documentation !
15:30 shedges hmmm.  if you guys decide on the right doc tools, i do a pretty good tyrant act!
15:30 rach if we can't bully stephen into doing it :-)
15:30 JYL be the tyrant of our common documentation !
15:30 rach Paul/Denis what does NeoDoc cost?
15:30 Denis Paul?
15:30 slef To be honest, I think the first stage is for the RM to start refusing undocumented commits. My attempts to understand and describe koha have been hindered by undocumented code.
15:31 chris good point
15:31 shedges yep, that's basic
15:31 jmlongo yep..
15:31 paul something like 700Euros for setting up the site.
15:31 shedges would everyone who wrotes docs have to have a neodoc license?
15:32 paul NO, it's only free software based
15:32 paul and it's only help for setting up Borges
15:32 paul and helping organising the work
15:32 paul they also provide proof reading.
15:33 paul they propose 300E for each document structure to set.
15:33 paul (after the 700 set up fee)
15:33 jmlongo wow!
15:33 slef Is it web-based?
15:33 chris wow is right
15:33 rach yes it is
15:34 shedges what else is out there?
15:34 chris i wonder, could we send someone off on a mission to find that out
15:34 slef We can probably forget about my customers using web-based systems, as they have slow lines.
15:34 emiliano sorry but I think we're discussing about tools when the real problem is effort-people isn't it?
15:34 slef emiliano++
15:34 owen Yes
15:34 rach yep
15:35 chris so step 1
15:35 shedges OK, but the bullying people to make the effort would be my task.
15:35 chris try to gather together some doc writers
15:35 shedges yep
15:35 rach yep - but we need some people to actually do the writing
15:35 paul ok, but i was speaking of them because of stephen writing.
15:35 emiliano I think we'll do documentation for librarians but in spanish ;-)
15:35 chris step 2, then find out out what tools would ork
15:35 chris work too
15:35 paul yes rach, but HOW to explain what & how to write ?
15:36 Denis emiliano in dutch ;-)
15:36 shedges doing docs in other languages is OK, as long as we share.
15:36 shedges i learn a lot from paul's docs
15:36 emiliano ok we'll publish
15:36 paul paul's doc ? which one ?
15:36 shedges wiki stuff
15:36 paul ok
15:36 paul but wiki is OK only for developpers.
15:37 rach Yes
15:37 paul for librarians we need a nice PDF printable document
15:37 jmlongo that's true...
15:37 rach yes
15:37 shedges format comes after content
15:37 rach but could we start with getting the actual information on the wiki?
15:37 shedges how do we build the content?
15:37 JYL Could we agree on simple approach, 0) release new functions 1) online help 2) end user manual and so on ,!
15:37 rach OK here is a quick summary of where I think we are at with this
15:38 rach We currently do very patchy documentation and help
15:38 paul mmm... maybe JYL did the suggestion we need to leave this forever lasting question of the chicken & the egg
15:38 Denis Online help is very important for me
15:38 rach and we don't have tools that are well liked to do it
15:38 slef shedges: need to figure out what is most important, first
15:39 shedges finish the online help for 2.2
15:39 paul yep.
15:39 Denis I agree
15:39 JYL right !
15:39 paul ( still inaccessible from france)
15:39 rach SO we need a voulunteer to do that?
15:39 slef Do we have a 2.2 test server with "Help" links going to the wiki?
15:40 paul no, but that may be a good idea slef.
15:40 JYL Paul, do we get the needed "change langage" button in the 2.2 release ?!
15:40 Denis Paul : this is a G. W. Bush action
15:40 chris i commited it jyl, and a smaple template
15:40 chris sample too
15:40 JYL BRAVO !
15:40 paul i've included it in official OPAC
15:40 chris it will need to be added to whatever templates you want it on
15:41 paul (it's now on, with CSS template. appears only when you're logged)
15:41 chris back to documentation... i think stephen has been bullied into be a tyrant
15:41 shedges (can that be done??)
15:41 chris ud think not :-)
15:41 rach Yep
15:42 owen Stephen doesn't need any encouragement to be a tyrant! ;)
15:42 rach OK it is now officially stephens problem :-)
15:42 chris so the next step is a call for doc writers .. to try and build a team?
15:42 shedges chris will look for good tools?
15:42 JYL yes, just requires for our help
15:42 chris and then decide what to focus on
15:42 chris and how
15:42 rach yep I think so, stephen up for that?
15:42 shedges yep
15:42 jmlongo :)
15:42 rach great
15:43 rach Next...
15:43 paul wow, the koha team will be very long & worldwide ;-)
15:43 chris stephen: yep ill do a look, but it probably wont be until after the honeymoon, so others could look as well
15:43 Denis could we summarize about documentation?
15:43 paul chris goes for honeymoon, paul goes for baby...
15:43 chris :)
15:43 jmlongo I'll look up too...
15:43 shedges ok, chris, you're excused for a while!
15:43 paul but no more than 2 weeks ;-)
15:43 chris heh
15:44 JYL Stephen, what do you think, we focus on 'end user manual'  ?!
15:44 emiliano end user
15:44 emiliano librarian?
15:44 shedges yes indeed!
15:44 jmlongo End USER!!... yeah!!  :)
15:44 Denis OPAC?
15:44 JYL yes, sorry emiliano
15:44 paul no, i think jyl speaks of librarian (vs developper)
15:44 shedges the admin help and the opac help are the most important
15:44 JYL I'm still using that silly IT langage...
15:45 rach Stephen has agreed to be the "project manager" for documentation, to organise the various documentation efforts, encourage developers to write the tech stuff, and some other people to translate that for librarians, and into other languages
15:45 slef OPAC is end user, please don't confuse that.
15:45 owen patron is the end user of the opac, librarians are the end users of the intranet
15:45 rach He will send the list an e-mail about that and like the 2.4 release conversation
15:45 slef end user of the library uses the OPAC. koha is not yet the center of this world ;-)
15:46 paul & i'll bug french mailing list too...
15:46 rach we can have a more focused indepth one on documentation on list
15:46 chris give us time slef :-)
15:46 rach rather than right now :-)
15:46 slef shedges++
15:46 chris sounds good
15:46 rach Right - I think that Koha hosting is next?
15:46 Denis U can use RoboDemo to make some films
15:46 paul what ? slef ? you are really sure Koha is not the center of this world ? i'm very disappointed :-D
15:47 rach I'm hoping that Mike will sort out the whole sitemap/how to find stuff, bit
15:47 slef Will shedges chair the list discussion?
15:47 jmlongo it depends on what world u live  :)
15:47 shedges on koha?  or koha-devel?
15:47 paul lol
15:47 JYL Could we have a sourceforge mailing list dedicated to documentation ?
15:48 JYL Or do we continue on the Wiki only ?!
15:48 slef JYL: wait for traffic to be high enough. shedges: I suspect koha.
15:48 shedges OK
15:48 paul so, webhosting ?
15:48 shedges (let's the list lurkers know we're working on it)
15:50 chris what was koha hosting about rach?
15:50 slef so, webhosting ?
15:51 jmlongo webhosting of what?
15:51 paul it was related to the various web hostings we have i suspect
15:51 rach umm I think it was about finding all the koha websites
15:51 paul yep.
15:51 rach yes- rather than changing the hostings
15:51 paul i think there are a lot of web sites related to koha
15:51 paul and it's not easy for a newbie to find all informations.
15:51 rach Yes
15:52 russ that is confusing
15:52 indradg hi all... sorry for being late... :)
15:52 paul afaik, is announced nowhere !
15:52 paul (it's just an example)
15:52 jmlongo that's true
15:52 chris yep
15:52 rach True
15:52 rach right Mike - you still here?
15:52 mikem yep still here
15:52 paul and slef site too.
15:52 slef paul: it's linked from Kohao so, webhosting ?
15:52 paul and wiki too.
15:52 rach how do you feel about turning into super sleuth, and finding all the useful Koha stuff
15:53 paul ??? slef ???
15:53 slef paul: it's linked from AnglKohao.
15:53 mikem rach: that is the plan ... will start with a page on the Wiki, so that people can add links that they know off
15:53 slef sorry, mispasted a mo ago
15:53 rach and working out how to make the site the "hub" so that people find things
15:53 rach and it all makes a bit more sense
15:54 rach Cool - and as you're just up the road
15:54 rach you can come in here and get a training session on koha website
15:54 slef mikem: have you a account and will chris reassign web bugs to you?
15:54 russ rach - i can do that
15:54 chris yep, and yep
15:55 mikem Slef ... yes I have ... and I will hit that shortly
15:55 rach Excellent
15:55 rach SO I think the last thing is bugs?
15:55 paul so, we could add a link from,, slef site & kados & other to this common wiki page.
15:55 chris well now we have russ as QA
15:55 paul good solution.
15:56 slef paul: what common wiki page?
15:56 chris he can start reassigning bugs, pestering people
15:56 Denis A problem is the mix of informations concerning different versions of KOHA
15:56 rach
15:56 paul slef : see mikem line
15:57 chris yes you are right denis, there is old information that shold dissapear
15:57 rach yes denis that is a problem
15:57 slef OK. Why not use the koha webring idea?
15:57 slef Information should be clearly versioned or dated.
15:57 paul for both &
15:57 Denis In the web site the documentation should be ordrered by version
15:57 rach ok that is a good idea
15:57 JYL yes we need to add an archive section on the wiki for older releases.
15:58 paul not just on wiki.
15:58 paul on website too
15:58 rach Mike you gather the ideas, and then let me know what you need for the Koha site, and come in and we can talk with the techs here about how to achieve it
15:58 rach if that works for you
15:58 JYL yeah, probably on website too...
15:58 mikem no worries Rach
15:58 rach So out of this meeting we are going to get 3 "roadmaps" basically
15:59 rach one for the 2.4 release
15:59 rach one for the documentation
15:59 rach and one for the website/online stuff
15:59 rach I think
15:59 chris well 3 discussions
15:59 rach yes - that;s what I meant
15:59 chris and from those discussions will come roadmaps
15:59 rach yes
15:59 rach and then ACTION :-)
16:00 slef Is there a release target date for 2.2?
16:00 paul 1 month
16:00 rach great
16:00 Denis tomorrow Paul?
16:00 Denis ;-)
16:00 paul today is 2.1.2
16:01 paul Ecole des Mines de Nantes will begin with 2.1.2 in real life soon
16:01 paul (1 week or so)
16:01 paul as I think there are no more blocking bugs.
16:01 rach woo exciting
16:01 shedges we won't have complete docs for 2.2 in one month.
16:01 emiliano A question..
16:01 paul :-(
16:01 paul yep emiliano ?
16:01 shedges but probably the online docs can be pretty well done
16:01 JYL good remark Stephen
16:01 jmlongo bu the disclaimer says that we should NEVER NEVER NEVER use it production!
16:02 slef There will be 2.0.2 this week, too. Biblio fix, removal of spanish suggestion and whatever other bugs are squashed in the next 24 hours.
16:02 jmlongo :)
16:02 paul yep.
16:02 emiliano what are the criterias for introducing new tables in a release
16:02 emiliano in the database I mean
16:02 paul i think it needs too many attention to be able to release it publicly.
16:02 chris cool slef
16:02 rach way to go slef
16:02 paul we need more testing of the installer/updater.
16:03 chris documentation about why/how they are used emiliano
16:03 chris and a way to upgrade from the old db
16:03 emiliano ok could be posted in misc scripts from cvs
16:03 slef Can defaults be updated, please? Lots of stuff still gets assigned to Steve.
16:03 Denis documetion wil be only for 2.2 and 2.4 not for 2.0?
16:04 chris there is an updatedabase script, so usually just editing that, and then writing some documentation about what the new tables are for
16:04 paul denis => you can see irc logs on
16:04 paul (saying this in case your battery is ended)
16:04 Denis thank you Paul
16:04 slef Denis: 2.0 is getting sysadmin documentation as I find it, but will probably not get librarian or end-user docs.
16:04 Denis oki slef
16:05 paul emiliano => all updates of DB must be done through updater/updatedatabase script.
16:05 paul but it has to be cleaned, because it's from 1.0.0 DB...
16:05 emiliano ok
16:06 paul I think it could be modified to update from 2.0 to 2.4
16:06 paul & we could say "if you have a 1.2 version, update to 2.0, THEN to 2.4"
16:06 rach So is there anything else on the agenda for today? CVS v's ARCH was mentioned
16:06 paul yep.
16:06 rach otherwise we can lapse into general discussion
16:06 chris ive gotta go, ill be back in a little while
16:07 paul bye chris
16:07 mikem l8r chris
16:07 paul slef ? something to say about CVS vs ARCH ?
16:07 owen slef, did you want to bring up specific bugs?
16:07 rach oh yes - I can do a summary of the bugs if anyone still can't get to
16:08 emiliano paul, another little question
16:08 paul (denis battery has ended...)
16:08 paul yes emiliano
16:08 slef paul: What do you want to know? Managing 2.0 became very easy after the move, as I can make prerelease tarballs with a single command (no extra download space) and the goes away
16:08 mikem works fine for me ;-)
16:08 emiliano Serials didn't introduce new tables?
16:08 paul yes.
16:08 emiliano ok
16:08 slef It's just a shame that no other public archives for 2.0 were posted, but I guess 2.2 has all the appeal for developers now.
16:08 paul they introduce 3 tables.
16:09 rach So Slef would you advocate eveyone moving ot it?
16:09 owen The issue of CVS vs. Arch doesn't hing solely on the ease of use for developers.  There are also the /end users/ to think about
16:09 emiliano are there in updatedatabase?
16:09 paul yes
16:09 emiliano ok
16:09 emiliano nice!!
16:09 rach is there generally a problem with different releases using different systems (I'm assuming there is)
16:09 paul owen => why are end users concened by cvs/arch ?
16:09 slef rach: yes, but it would be best if we can offer arch hosting if there are developers who need it.
16:09 rach but happy to be corrected
16:10 slef owen: I hope putting troublesome bugs in the topic is enough attention that people will look at it when the meeting finishes ;-)
16:10 owen Well, there's the issue of the CVS mailing list.  And there's the Web view available through Sourceforge--even though it's not updated often enough, it can be useful at times
16:11 paul my question about arch is : is every developper ready to switch to this new platform ?
16:11 slef rach: I think it's a more general communication problem. When I ask 2.2 developers for patches, most ignore them.
16:11 paul this means having a learning curve
16:11 shedges yeah, i think the reasons to switch have to be pretty strong.
16:12 slef owen: as far as I can remember, no-one raised the issue of the CVS mailing list until 2 hours ago. I can probably configure that.
16:12 rach but slef for maintenance you think that aarch is good?
16:12 paul i know the weaknesses of CVS, & deals with them
16:12 rach or for development too?
16:12 paul but if everybody want to switch, i'll switch too.
16:12 shedges i still haven't figured arch out :-(
16:12 slef I think it's essential for maintenance, but would help make it easier to get new developers.
16:12 paul (i even have found a complete tutorial in french ;-) )
16:13 slef shedges: have you seen ?
16:13 shedges yep
16:13 slef email me questions about it and I'll try to answer swiftly
16:13 paul slef => you really think it will be easier to ge new developers ? because ppl uses often CVS, but who uses arch ?
16:14 slef paul: at present, new developers have a hard time using revision control until they are given commit access to the main tree. arch solves that and also makes merging branches easier.
16:14 paul from a tech point of view, you're completly right.
16:15 paul but, for example, Emiliano => if koha had been with arch
16:15 slef paul: so, yes. User numbers aren't that relevant, as long as it's about as easy, otherwise we'd all be using Microsoft and Penlib or something, wouldn't we?
16:15 paul would it have changed something to your choice ?
16:15 paul (= choice to get involved in Koha)
16:15 paul (emiliano or matias)
16:16 emiliano I think no, i find
16:16 paul slef => right ;-)
16:16 emiliano cvs very difficult
16:16 emiliano and very time-consuming
16:16 paul ok, so if everybody is ready to switch to arch, i agree
16:16 paul katipo & Nelsonville => your opinion ?
16:17 emiliano but don't think it will restrict access to others
16:17 russ it is a shame chris had to leave
16:17 rach to give our opinion
16:17 russ i am sure he has an opinion
16:17 shedges i'll keep trying (with slef's help)
16:17 rach so that it doesn't interfere with the release of 2.1/2.2
16:17 owen I'm worried about the transition to arch because I'm used to a Windows GUI.  But I'm definitely in the minority there.  I'll go with whatever is agreed upon.
16:18 rach is that a sensible approach?
16:18 shedges yep
16:18 JYL Am I right saying that this source management choice
16:18 paul owen => there are some GUI on arch
16:18 slef owen: yes, windows support is somewhat lacking for arch, that's true. You'll need a CVS gateway or cygwin IIRC.
16:18 MattH as someone with years of cvs experience, i'd be backing staying with cvs
16:18 JYL is only linked with future 2.4 release ?!
16:18 MattH but then i'm not what you'd call and active koha developer
16:19 MattH please forgive my intrusion
16:19 rach (not yet :-)
16:19 paul look here :[…]n/comparison.html for various nice GUI for arch
16:19 rach OK - what I would like so that we can make a sensible choice
16:20 rach is for a quick run down on what is good about CVS
16:20 rach what is bad or difficult in CVS
16:20 paul now ?
16:20 rach what problems ARCH solves
16:20 russ i would say a email to the dev list would be the go
16:20 rach and what some potential problems with a change might be
16:20 rach because to me, this is hearts and minds stuff for developers
16:21 paul slef, you initiate the thread ?
16:21 rach I *know* you are all capable of learning a new thing, as long as you see that it is worthwhile
16:21 slef[…]nAndCvsComparison
16:21 slef I'll hang on for a few in case here are questions here, then summarise in the first email.
16:22 rach that would be great thanks slef
16:22 matias people...IŽm leaving...gotta go...
16:22 rach thanks matias
16:22 paul bye matias
16:22 rach OK i think that is the end of the formal part of the meeting?
16:23 matias bye Paul...bye all...
16:23 matias see you...
16:23 rach it is now time for drinks and nibbles :-)
16:23 russ mike give me a call on the Katipo number when you are ready to come in about the website
16:23 JYL or a little rest for us maybe ?!
16:23 rach or to thrash out anything else, if people are keen to hang about
16:24 rach or yes rest for you :-)
16:24 emiliano a little out of topic
16:24 emiliano didn't you receive
16:24 mikem russ ... no worries ... rach: when are you back from the US?
16:24 emiliano comments about mysql license
16:24 emiliano changes
16:24 JYL Ok, thanks for this interesting discussion folks !
16:24 emiliano and Koha relation with it?
16:25 paul bye jean yves
16:25 paul have a good night
16:25 JYL Stephen don't hesitate to ask for help
16:25 shedges thanks!
16:25 rach back on the 18th of October
16:25 JYL Bye ! and Paul tell me about your installer tests...
16:25 mikem thanks Rach
16:26 rach thanks for coming everyone, a bit of a marathon meeting
16:26 JYL Rach, should be a good idea to plan the next meeting maybe ?!
16:26 slef emiliano: they just broadened  the exception a bit, didn't they?
16:26 russ paul i will send you and email about the qa stuff
16:26 paul JYL => 1000% right !
16:26 paul ok
16:26 shedges 2 weeks?
16:27 slef Plan meeting on list, else we make it hard for people not here now.
16:27 emiliano bad time to question :-)
16:27 rach yes I agree slef
16:27 JYL 2 short meetings a month is fine for me
16:28 paul jyl : the problem is that it's rarely short ;-)
16:28 russ bye all
16:29 JYL yeah, we probably need more german co-workers to stress timing issues... lol
16:29 slef JYL: xenophobe
16:30 JYL Ok, still need to test a few things, bye and have a good night
16:30 paul bye JYL
16:30 MattH it's a stereotype, not xenophobia
16:30 JYL slef, take a look at where I live and you will understand that I love my neighbours !
16:31 shedges bye jean yves
16:31 shedges bye paul
16:31 shedges bye all, i'm gone, too
16:31 jmlongo Paul: you wanted to talk about po files?
16:31 paul right.
16:31 paul (it's almost midnight here. i was forgotting...)
16:32 jmlongo or are your battteries too low?  :)
16:32 paul I've set up a webserver for french translation.
16:32 paul it uses kartouche.
16:32 emiliano paul seems to be solar
16:32 paul (look at kartouche)
16:32 paul (without the space)
16:32 paul it works fine for any iso5589-1 language i think
16:32 mikem chris: just for when you get back, I have updated to make myself the initial contact for the website related bugs/issues
16:33 paul so I could set up a .po file for spanish translation too
16:33 paul and generate the official .po file from there
16:33 slef what about utf-8?
16:33 paul (if you need some help, of course)
16:33 paul slef => i don't know. i haven't dig
16:33 slef How do we use .po files at the minute?
16:34 paul misc/translator/ to generate/update the .po
16:34 paul and to generate the translated templates
16:34 jmlongo that would be grat..
16:34 paul kartouche "eats" the .po file & can regenerate it after translations.
16:34 paul so, the process is :
16:35 paul * create/update
16:35 paul * import into kartouche
16:35 paul * translate
16:35 paul * export .po file again
16:35 paul * generate
16:35 emiliano it seems to be very nice
16:35 emiliano is OSS?
16:35 paul yep.
16:35 paul (used by a kde translation team)
16:36 paul (for hungarian or something like that)
16:36 jmlongo we were planning to use kbabel... because of it's database facilities
16:36 emiliano is there a way to "remember" terms or phrases?
16:36 kados hi all
16:36 paul a little bit hacked by me
16:36 paul hi kados.
16:36 kados sorry I'm late
16:36 jmlongo does kartouche offers something similar?
16:36 paul no, you arrive after the battle ;-)
16:36 kados hehe
16:36 slef kartouche is originally welsh
16:36 paul right
16:36 slef and has omnivore as a translation memory
16:36 paul right too
16:37 emiliano omnivore?
16:37 jmlongo ???
16:37 slef another web system
16:37 paul but i don't know how to use omnivore.
16:37 slef me neither... I translate files with a text editor atm
16:38 emiliano I'm worried about reusing translations
16:38 emiliano but it seems to be nice for seeing the advances
16:39 emiliano in translation for a distributed group
16:39 emiliano for example
16:39 paul right
16:39 slef context is everything, but I think the kyfieithu developers know that
16:40 slef Are there plans to use the .po files directly from koha?
16:40 paul not for instance.
16:40 paul but it's a good idea
16:41 paul (a lot of things are good ideas in fact... the problem being to do them ;-) )
16:41 jmlongo so we wouldn't have to 'generate' templates?
16:41 paul yep
16:41 paul (but in fact they will be generated on the fly)
16:41 jmlongo (I see)
16:42 emiliano wondefull!!!
16:42 paul what is wonderful ?
16:42 slef Might it make the "select language" feature easier to support?
16:42 paul mmm... yes & no.
16:42 jmlongo I guees emiliano like things 'on the fly'  ;)
16:43 emiliano yes
16:44 paul a conclusion on .po subject ?
16:45 paul (midnight in 15 minuts here... want to go to bed ;-) )
16:45 emiliano I think we could test Kartouche, installing here
16:45 emiliano or opening
16:45 slef I guess it's up to emiliano to discuss.
16:45 emiliano a new project
16:45 slef How am I supposed to ask translators for updated templates?
16:45 emiliano inside your Kartouche
16:46 paul slef => probably on translation mailing list.
16:46 paul emiliano => i'm ok to add your .po file to
16:46 chris
16:46 kados sweet
16:47 emiliano what do you think Martin?
16:47 paul emiliano => just send your almost-translated .po file, & i'll take care of it.
16:47 paul we cuold begin by opac.po
16:47 emiliano I have opac.po translated
16:47 jmlongo well... we could give it a try..
16:47 paul just note that is my local computer.
16:47 paul and may be switched off
16:47 emiliano mmmm
16:47 slef paul: they didn't answer a request for help with spanish, so I'm dropping it from the suggested list in 2.0.2
16:48 jmlongo eeks
16:48 slef (librarian interface and existing users can continue anyway)
16:48 paul (i'll have a new 24/7 webserver in a few months)
16:49 emiliano Well, I will speak with Martin
16:49 paul slef=> nothing to say about this. I've no libraries using spanish koha, so i'm OK
16:49 paul kartouche is quite easy to set up
16:49 paul the biggest difficulty is to find where to download it
16:49 paul was my friend here
16:49 jmlongo we'll work on it
16:49 emiliano ok
16:50 slef paul: not on
16:50 slef yes, -> Downloads
16:50 slef kyfieithu damnit
16:51 paul no, it's 0.0.1 it seems.
16:51 slef my fingers don't speak welsh
16:51 paul freshmeat points to 0.0.2
16:51 jmlongo does kartouche have an english interface?
16:51 slef ah, have you let Kevin know?
16:51 paul yep jmlongo
16:51 paul no.
16:52 emiliano jajajaja
16:52 emiliano Martin, perhaps must start translating
16:52 paul[…]ouche-v0.2.tar.gz
16:52 emiliano Kartouche
16:52 jmlongo yessss...
16:53 jmlongo ok... I'm downbloading it now...
16:53 jmlongo we'll see
16:53 emiliano ok
16:54 jmlongo I tried to apt-get it...  but no luck...  :P
16:54 jmlongo If we can work it out... maybe we can host po translations for othere  :*)
16:55 paul ok, do you let me go to bed ?
16:55 slef jmlongo: I need to educate them in the ways of debian before apt-get will work ;-)
16:55 emiliano for me it's ok Paul
16:55 jmlongo haha... I'll have to waut then...  :)
16:55 emiliano regards and thanx a lot
16:56 slef Does the koha 2.4 proposed features only have one item in it at the moment?
16:56 jmlongo well...   have nice dreams Paul!
16:56 emiliano nooo
16:56 paul ok, bye bye.
16:56 emiliano 5 items
16:56 emiliano and more for doing (?)
16:56 slef I only see Barcodes generator.
16:56 slef I am looking at[…]librarian/kohapf/
16:56 emiliano there is a little botton
16:56 emiliano down
16:56 emiliano that says Next
16:57 emiliano and barcodes is included in 2.1.2
16:57 emiliano less for 2.4
16:57 jmlongo ok guys.. I'll have to leave now...
16:57 emiliano slef, do you see
16:57 emiliano ?
16:57 slef Can that be made more obvious, please? I mistook it for part of the text.
16:58 slef kados: date --utc
16:58 owen Too bad you didn't calculate an hour early like I did.  It worked out better.
16:58 jmlongo thanks for all
16:58 emiliano sure
16:58 jmlongo bye!
16:58 slef jmlongo: bye
16:58 emiliano I'll try to put in a entire document
16:58 emiliano bye Martin
17:00 kados I'm skeptical of the neodoc thing ...
17:00 kados pretty expensive ...
17:00 kados I think all we need is vi and some time :-)
17:01 emiliano I think we need volunteers
17:01 paul mmm... kados, remember the doc is not written by developpers (librarian doc i mean)
17:01 emiliano I could obtain but for spanish only
17:02 kados which docs do you mean? the sysadmin manual?
17:02 slef Also, moving to arch would let 2.4RMs ask developers for code docs before accepting work... not sure if that would work or not
17:02 kados or librarian docs?
17:02 paul no, the librarian doc
17:03 emiliano well, I'm also leaving
17:03 emiliano regards to all
17:03 kados cao
17:03 rach ciao emiliano
17:08 kados dunno ... his website appears down:
17:10 rach yeah I noticed that
17:10 kados rach: you could always use the wayback machine:
17:10 kados*/h[…]
17:11 rach true - although I don't think that site had his addy on it
17:11 kados ahh
17:14 slef whois has an address
17:14 slef no idea whose
17:15 Jo Good morning
17:15 mikem rach ... nsr would probably have his addy
17:16 Jo Si: can I send a fax to you (telstra proposal for branches) for a quick squizz before I meet him?
17:16 rach ok ta
17:20 Jo rach: can i fax something to katipo for si to get sometime before Thursday?
17:22 rach yes do it now
17:22 rach 04-934 1286
17:22 rach he is here
17:27 Jo cool
17:27 Jo thanks
17:29 rach no prob
17:40 rach Jo is the handwriting important?
17:40 rach because we can't really read that
17:46 Jo nope
17:46 Jo my scribble
17:47 Jo i will email down my questions to si - they cover the handwriting
17:47 rach ok
17:47 rach have got 20 pages
17:47 rach is that the right number
18:04 slef kados: just replying to your old email. Sorry for the lag.
18:42 slef

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