Time Nick Message 14:01 paul hi logbot ;-) 14:02 matias-UN hi people... 14:03 paul hi matias 14:03 matias-UN paul..how can I change my nickname...? 14:03 matias-UN I didn´t know there was a string limit... 14:04 chris /nick newnickname 14:04 chris without the space at the front 14:04 UNLP-Phys ok...thanks... 14:05 rach Matias - it might have been easier to "say" your name :-) 14:07 UNLP-Phys yeah...I was thinking that... 14:07 rach :-) 14:07 rach but it's good to know where you are from 14:07 rach we might get a few more straglers - but shall we start with introductions 14:07 chris sounds good 14:07 rach Chris you're at the top of the list :-) 14:08 paul ladies & gentlemen, let me introduce the guy that commited that so nice label printing module in 2.1.2 !!! 14:08 paul it's matias 14:08 rach Great work Matias 14:09 matias ja ja...ok...thank you so much...!!! 14:09 rosa rosa is Rosalie Blake, librarian from Horowhenua, NZ 14:10 matias thanks Paul or that... 14:10 matias for that 14:10 matias ;-) 14:11 JYL JYL is a newbie interested in documentation and translation, testing 2.0 & 2.2 14:11 paul mmm... i tried to announce 2.1.2 public release on koha mailing list : 14:11 paul <koha@lists.katipo.co.nz>: Name service error for name=lists.katipo.co.nz 14:11 paul type=MX: Host not found, try again 14:11 slef Apologies first of all. Because I thought this meeting was at 1800Z, I'm elsewhere too now (1900Z) 14:11 rach paul we're having trouble this morning 14:11 rach one of our servers got swapped last night 14:11 paul don't forget to say you're french JYL :D 14:11 sad-hu_ hello, sad-hu is Matti Lassila, I did the finnish translation 14:11 JYL YYYEEEAAHHH !! Bravo 14:12 rach nice to meet you Matti 14:12 paul hello matti. 14:12 paul what I find interesting with this meeting is that there are more and more europeans. 14:12 rach and JYL - which in my head I'm pronouncing Jill by the way 14:13 JYL sounds good for me rach ! 14:13 paul JYL means Jean Yves Lemaire 14:13 rach Si is Simon Blake who is the one who was playing with the server late last night, so he's still asleep 14:13 rach despite my best efforts to wake him up 14:14 rach skoba looks to be away 14:14 rach tim are you about? 14:14 paul another ppl speaking french ;-) 14:14 tim I'm here. 14:15 rach can you do your intro :-) 14:15 owen kados is Joshua Ferraro, also from the Nelsonville Public Library, but it doesn't look like he's around 14:15 matias I think I´m gonna have to learn some french... ;-) 14:15 rach me to 14:15 JYL It shouldn't be a problem ! 14:16 matias ja ja...by the way...sorry my english..I´ll improve it...I promise... :-) 14:16 tim would like to help, but don't know enough yet. 14:16 chris ur from west liberty public library right tim? 14:16 skoba sorry, i wont't be here that night cos' of family afair (i say hello to all (poor english) but i log the chan tonight) bonne nuit les enfants...... 14:16 rach you said something very helpful the other day = we always need newbies to point out where we've been captured by our own cleverness :-) 14:17 tim Yes I am chris 14:17 paul skoba => logbot is here for irc logging : www.koha.org/irc 14:18 rach cool 14:18 chris i think that is everyone? 14:18 rach Yep we have a short agenda 14:19 rach First shall we do the volunteer "positions" ? 14:20 rach The first is Kaitiaki, which has been done well by Pat Eyler over the last few years, but he's got busy with work 14:20 slef Small point of order: if the meeting details change, can it be a new post rather than a reply, please? 14:20 rach and I think his work policy might have changed, so hasn't been able to keep it up unfortunatly 14:20 rach AH yes certainly - sorry slef 14:21 rach How long do you have? 14:21 rach So is there anyone else who would like to be the Kaitiaki? 14:22 paul yes : you ;-) 14:22 rach sorry - anyone else other than me :-) 14:23 rach does anyone object to it being me? 14:23 JYL NO ! 14:23 owen If only we had a tiara for rach... 14:23 rach and a wand :-) 14:23 russ owen, i'll sort one out for her today 14:23 JYL congratulations rach ! 14:24 paul kudos rach 14:24 paul how do you say kaitiaki for a girl in maori ? 14:24 rach cool - thanks :-) 14:24 chris the same paul 14:24 paul Rachel Hamilton, Koha kaitiaki. Sounds nice... 14:25 rach which brings us quickly to the other volunteer position I think we need 14:25 paul yep 14:25 rach which is website editor 14:26 rach who doesn't need to do HTML if they don't want 14:26 paul slef are you still here ? if yes, it may be better to speak 1st of release managers/maintainers ? 14:26 rach ah ok sure paul 14:27 rach all righty - 2.2 release date and maintainer.... 14:27 paul I think I must write some things here & now 14:27 slef paul: I'm here, but intermittently able to look at the screen. 14:27 paul ok slef 14:27 paul the 2.2 status : 14:27 paul i've released a 2.1.2 today. 14:28 paul it's still in unstable branch. I've something like 15 bugs to squash. 14:28 paul (coming from 3days tests with Ecole des Mines de Nantes) 14:28 paul none of them are blocking, but most are really annoying. 14:28 chris right 14:28 paul the barcode generator is included. 14:28 slef Should I be marking 2.0 bugs FIXED, or reversioning 2.2 so you can check they're fixed for that too? 14:28 paul in 2.1.2 14:29 slef Is that botf or another one? 14:29 paul slef : my problem with what you do with the 2.0 branch is that i've no mail like with sourceforge cvs. 14:29 slef barcodes on the fly helper 14:29 paul so i can't merge your 2.0 bugfixes on 2.2 branch :-( 14:30 owen I think many of us don't know what's going on with 2.0 14:30 paul it generates nice PDF page with barcodes on it. 14:30 slef I can render 2.0 bugfixes in whatever format you want, but no-one has asked for anything until now. 14:30 paul with continuous barcode, or selected inventory. 14:30 matias :-) 14:30 slef So don't you go all :-( here now over stuff you never said before. 14:31 owen Are you signed up for the Koha-CVS list slef? 14:31 paul i hadn't the time to ask slef. I admit. 14:31 rosa sounds cool to me, slef 14:31 slef paul: what does the barcode printer require? 14:31 paul yes owen, but slef uses arch, not the sourceforge cvs. 14:31 paul it's in 2.1.2 release notes ;-) 14:31 paul PDF::API2 14:31 slef owen: I didn't know it existed. 14:32 paul wow ! you didn't know this list exists. Too bad we never spoke of it before. 14:32 slef paul: is that in distributions? 14:32 paul distributions ? 14:32 owen https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/koha-cvs 14:32 slef like packaged for debian, fedora, mandrake and so on? 14:33 paul i don't know. 14:33 paul maybe, it's a very common perlpackage 14:34 paul PDF::API2 is not on mandrake distrib. 14:34 paul can't answer for others distros 14:34 slef owen: is there a version without the diffs? 14:34 paul however, the 2.2 status : 14:34 paul the 2.1.2 will probably be the last one in unstable tree 14:34 paul the next one should be a 2.2RC1, in stable tree. 14:35 paul it's really useable, & I think I was too slow to release official 2.0.0 14:35 paul in France, many libraries were waiting for 2.0.0 even when 2.0.0RC4 was released. 14:35 owen slef: a version of the koha-cvs list? Not that I know of. 14:36 paul So I think it's better to release soon, & produce bugfixes more often. 14:36 chris slef: its in debian, at least in testing and unstable it is 14:36 paul I need 3 things to rlease 2.2 : 14:36 paul * LDAP connections fixes. It'll take care of this 14:37 slef What will? 14:37 paul (i'll, sorry) 14:37 paul * some changes in plugins to find editor from ISBN & collection selector 14:38 paul * MARC21 SQL files. 14:38 paul this last * needs help from MARC21 libraries. 14:38 paul in the 2.2 installer, the user can select various files for installing, to have a well working DB 14:38 rach Do we have any MARC21 libraries here now? 14:38 paul something like (for france) 14:38 paul * UNIMARC default biblio structure 14:39 paul * UNIMARC parameters for multimedia framework 14:39 paul * systmeprefs in french & for france 14:39 paul * UNIMARC default authority structure 14:39 paul * unimarc parameters for various authorities types (like NC for Common Names, NP for Propers Names)... 14:40 paul & complete "sample DB" 14:40 paul so what i'm hoping is a library that could help building nice MARC21 files. 14:41 slef Are the tables the same as 2.0? 14:41 paul not exactly 14:41 slef Is there a guide to differences? 14:41 paul in MARC biblio, the difference is in the "framework" column 14:41 paul otherwise, it's the same DB for MARC 14:42 paul for MARC authorities, it's a copy of MARC biblio with frameworks 14:42 paul there are no technical description of the diffs 14:42 paul i'll modify the DB structure schema ASAP 14:43 paul are those minor explanations enough ? 14:44 rach Slef you think one of your customers might be able to help, if Paul does a good guide so that the data can be migrated from 2.0 to 2.2? 14:44 slef Enough to see that you need a 2.2 testbed library to design this, or a really safe upgrade script. 14:44 rach yes that sounds fair 14:44 paul the updater tool is untested, but the updatedatabase script has been updated on every DB change 14:45 rach Slef and Paul can you work that out between yourselves, when you've both got a bit more time ? 14:45 paul ok. 14:46 rach excellent :-) 14:46 rach yup :-) 14:46 paul (so i'll be a little less here in the next 3-4 weeks) 14:46 matias congratulations :-) 14:47 rach so best to get things done before hand? 14:47 paul (thanks. It's my 3rd little guy...) 14:47 paul ??? rach ??? 14:47 JYL I'm volunteer to test the updater script Paul ! 14:47 paul ok, thanks JYL 14:47 paul i'll let you know how to do this from a 2.0.0 install 14:48 paul (it's written in 2.1.2 release notes in fact ;-) ) 14:48 paul (iirc) 14:48 JYL Can only test it on my Sarge Debian install... 14:48 paul i'll have to migrate my customers too, so i'll have to do some tests too 14:48 paul the question now is : 14:49 paul * what do we do with the 2.0 branch ? 14:49 paul * when do we swap to 2.2 release manager to 2.2 release maintainer ? 14:49 paul * who will be 2.2 release maintainer ? 14:49 paul slef, any opinion on 1st questiion ? 14:50 rach Sleft how hard has it been to be 2.0 release maintainer? 14:50 paul I already have said to rachel I was suggestion to be 2.2 release maintainer & let emiliano & argentina team (matias) be 2.4 release manager. 14:51 paul s/suggestion/suggesting 14:51 matias I think... 14:52 matias we are open to contribute with all that we´ve made... 14:52 matias of course, all those things that people like... :-) 14:53 paul emiliano & I had a long IRC discussion a few days ago. 14:53 paul I think he is aware that being release manager means commiting code, but also a lot of other things : 14:53 paul * accepting/rejecting new ideas 14:53 paul * building & testing releases 14:53 matias yeah...that´s why I´m telling you this... 14:54 paul * dealing with multi-marc & multi-countries questions. 14:54 slef paul: I would continue 2.0.x until 2.2.1 14:54 matias I think it would be a better idea to propose another release manager.. 14:54 emiliano Hi everybody 14:54 paul welcome emiliano. 14:55 paul we were speaking of 2.4 release manager. 14:55 matias hello... 14:55 slef rach: fairly difficult until the arch move, then fairly easy, but certain 2.2 developers don't answer bugs emails. 14:55 paul I was suggesting you as 2.4 release manager. 14:55 paul matias seems not so happy with this idea 14:55 paul am i missing something ? 14:56 matias no...I am happy... :) 14:56 paul so why do you think it would be a better idea to propose someone else ? 14:58 matias as I was saying... 14:58 matias we are open to contribute... 14:58 matias we are open to work on bug fixing... 14:59 matias and to contribute with new ideas... 14:59 emiliano I think Matias wants to say that being release manager 14:59 emiliano is a very responsable position 15:00 matias exactly... ;-) 15:00 emiliano and we have some requeriments 15:00 emiliano to accomplish 15:00 emiliano very urgent 15:00 chris the release manager doesnt have to be a developer 15:01 chris if anyone else wants to volunteer :-) 15:01 emiliano Paul? 15:01 paul mmm... 15:01 paul I can't do everything 15:02 rach he can't be 2.2 maintainer *and* 2.4 release manager 15:02 paul i'm ok to be release manager OR rleease maintainer 15:02 emiliano we can help you 15:02 paul right ;-) 15:02 matias yeap 15:02 paul what do you mean exactly by "help" ? 15:02 slef I would volunteer, but I think that 2.0 should continue into 2.2's early life and I now think that other developers are cross with me about the arch move (but didn't say before). 15:02 emiliano I mean that we can distribute the tasks 15:03 chris yep, i agree that 2.0 should continue for a while self 15:03 chris slef even :) 15:03 rach yes I agree too :-) 15:03 paul emiliano, I think that the good question is the timing one. 15:04 paul for me, the 2.4 official release does not have to be released urgently 15:04 emiliano ok I agree 15:04 emiliano we need it urgently 15:04 emiliano but could start 15:04 paul so, the main problem is that you will be release manager for the 1st time. 15:05 paul and that may be frightening no ? 15:05 emiliano jajaja 15:05 emiliano could be 15:05 matias :-) 15:05 emiliano but the real question is 15:05 emiliano what is 2.4? 15:05 emiliano what must include 15:05 paul so, a good news : before being release manager for Koha, i never had beenr release manager ;-) 15:06 paul yes, you're right. But that's a question we have 2 months or something like that to define. 15:06 owen How about this: emiliano and his team are named release managers, and ask Paul for help when they have questions? 15:06 chris emiliano: yep that is the question, but thats something we can all discuss i think ur roadmap is a good start 15:06 emiliano ok 15:07 paul and even if you feel too bad release manager, i can take the role. 15:07 rach sounds good to me 15:07 emiliano jajaja 15:07 paul but i'm sure you will be a good release manager. 15:07 chris the way id do it, is concentrate on doing the urgent things you need first 15:07 emiliano ok in this case I agree 15:07 rach Excellent 15:08 chris as 2.2 hasnt been released yet, so like paul says 2.4 isnt urgent .. then when you have done the things u need urgently can work more on the release manager role 15:08 paul emiliano : do you still think an official mail cuold be a good thing ? 15:08 emiliano official mail? 15:08 paul if yes => rach, as kaitiaki, you should take care of it. 15:09 paul yes, you asked for a mail for your boss. 15:09 emiliano yes 15:09 emiliano I think so 15:09 paul so, ask rachel ;-) 15:09 chris :) 15:09 rach yes I can do that :-) 15:09 emiliano I wish to clear one thing 15:09 emiliano In Argentina is there 15:09 emiliano 2 projects related with Koha 15:10 emiliano I hope that the National Ministry 15:10 emiliano of Education could help to enforce 15:10 emiliano our actual efforts 15:10 emiliano because of this I need the mail 15:11 paul in france, we have 2 ministries concerned by ILS : the culture & the education. Is it the same in Argentina ? 15:11 rach ok - emiliano, can you please e-mail me at rachel@katipo.co.nz 15:11 emiliano ok 15:12 rach and let me know to whom I should address the mail and any other details it needs to have 15:12 emiliano no paul one only in the same Ministry 15:12 rach I can send a letter as a PDF for you 15:12 emiliano ok 15:12 Denis hello all 15:13 paul another frenchy... 15:13 Denis hi Paul 15:13 rach bonjour denis 15:13 Denis hi rach 15:13 paul i'm please to introduce Denis Lieppe, from Sorbonne university. 15:13 rach hi stephen 15:13 shedges hi all 15:13 paul user of Koha 2.0.0 in it's library (research) 15:13 paul hi stephen 15:13 slef So, who is each RM? 15:13 owen I'm pleased to introduce Stephen Hedges, director of the Nelsonville Public Library in Ohio 15:13 paul rach, i let you summarize 15:14 rach 2.0 = Sleft 15:14 rach 2.2 = Paul 15:14 rach 2.4 = Emiliano 15:14 chris -t 15:14 rach erg - sorry slef 15:14 rach And we expect 2.0 to need to keep going for a while yet 15:15 Denis all right 15:15 slef Until 2.2.1 or beyond? 15:15 rach 2.2.1 I would hope 15:15 slef Until 2.2.1's release date or beyond? 15:15 Denis big "bravo" to Paul for 2.2 15:15 slef (sorry, realised that didn't make sense) 15:15 rach not indefinitly 15:15 rach shouldn't be a life sentance :-) 15:16 slef OK, as there's a couple of things I'd like to hack into 2.4 15:16 rach Slef I would think realistically until you've converted your customers to the new version is a good "rule of thumb" 15:16 rach that's what we have done with 1.2 basically 15:17 chris perhaps we should organise a 2.4 meetin at some point? or at least a 2.4 discussion on the devel list? 15:17 slef chris++ 15:17 emiliano I'll be happy 15:17 rach yes that is a good idea - there are a few more things to sort out before we all get sucked into the fun of planning the next version :-) 15:17 paul an IRC meeting is quite complex because of worldwide koha spread 15:17 rach yep 15:18 rach so a couple more volunteer positions 15:18 paul so a koha-dev discussion is better, with a "wiki" summary 15:18 chris yep, a discusion on the lists might be the easiest to start with 15:18 chris yep paul 15:18 rach Russ has kindly volunteered to do some QA for the new release 15:18 russ yep sure 15:18 paul (denis, stay here, pls, we will speak of doc project soon. You should be interested) 15:19 slef emiliano: will you take charge of summarising the discussion? 15:19 owen Great news. Thanks Russ! 15:19 emiliano ok 15:19 rach and Mike has volunteered to be in charge of sorting out the website stuff 15:19 chris yay mike 15:19 rach so that we get a bit more coherance going 15:19 jmlongo Hi everybody... sorry I'm late! 15:19 paul good news, good news... 15:19 rach something I am *very* happy to hear 15:20 emiliano Hi Martin 15:20 matias hi Martin 15:20 emiliano Martin is our official translator 15:20 slef Are we onto documentation or website now? 15:20 Denis Denis more tired than Paul ;-) 15:20 rach oh hi Martin 15:20 emiliano he's working enhacing .po files 15:20 paul ok. hi martin. 15:20 rach OK quickly then ... Documentation 15:20 rach before you all fall asleep 15:21 paul ;-) 15:21 Denis lol 15:21 jmlongo Hi :) 15:21 slef Can we add .po files to the end of the meeting? 15:21 paul (about .po translation tool) 15:22 jmlongo no prob from me 15:22 rach Documentation. For this, i've some news. I've met neodoc company (http://www.neodoc.org/index.php?show=&lang=en) and have a financial proposal for hosting & helping doc organizing. We just have to find funds & define strategy (ie : do we want to have 1 common doc in english with various translation ? how to manage the diffs between MARC21 & UNIMARC ? ...) 15:23 slef Do we know jferraro's opinion of this? 15:23 paul does anyone have something to say or are you waiting for more infos from me ? 15:23 JYL JYL is looking for an english manual first ! 15:23 shedges are we like to find any funds? 15:23 paul one question after another... 15:23 JYL Let's concentrate on one good english manual first (Proposal!) 15:23 rach do they write the documentation? 15:23 paul NO. 15:23 rach OK 15:23 paul they provide tools to write common documentation. 15:23 emiliano ok 15:24 paul on a web based interface. 15:24 paul I think that's what we really lack today. 15:24 slef I am worried by www.neodoc.org as it seems bigger on process and technology than writing. 15:24 rach or is that not right? 15:24 emiliano but need volunteers for writing 15:24 slef Yes, the problem is writing. 15:24 Denis Would the manual on-line or a printed-one? 15:24 paul for neodoc, it's XML technology 15:25 Denis ok 15:25 paul so can produce PDF & HTML versions as well as anything else 15:25 slef jferraro has a draft of a sysadmin manual, which I will help with 15:25 chris yeah that sysadmin manual is comig along nicely 15:25 rach yep it looks like a good tool, but we don't have much to publish yet :-) 15:26 paul the question of the chicken & the egg... (frenchism ?) 15:26 rach yes 15:26 slef So we need to find librarians who will write, or learn enough library to write it ourselves, and give those doing the writing whatever they want. 15:26 JYL Soory guys, but in my opinion we need manuals to reassure our librarians 15:26 jmlongo exactly... :) 15:26 shedges Someone needs to be the "documentation" tyrant and dictate what is done -- and where 15:26 chris yep 15:26 paul everybody agrees I think. 15:26 slef Put neodoc in the maybe/later stack for now. 15:26 paul a few months ago, I asked for help on french ML 15:26 rach that's why I asked really - is it a problem that technology can solve? or is it a "people problem" that we need some people to actuallly do it 15:27 Denis do you know the Macromedia e-Help software? 15:27 paul I got only 2 answers. 15:27 JYL Stephen you're a master of documentation until now 15:27 slef Denis: is it free software? 15:27 paul rach => i don't know. 15:27 paul slef => no 15:27 Denis no 15:27 chris i think we need people, i like stephens answer we need a documentation tyrant 15:27 paul but that's technology denis loves ;-) 15:27 rach well good tools can help - if people *like* using it then they might do more 15:27 Denis but it is very...helpful to build an help 15:28 paul shedges => do you want to be doc dictator ? 15:28 chris who should work close with a release manager and we should make it our policy for the future 15:28 chris no new release without accompanying documentation 15:29 rach so we should have a "documentor" who works with the release manager 15:29 Denis excuse me my cat is asking me to open the door 15:29 paul & who should release often/release soon documentation to be able to translate into various languages. 15:29 rach yes 15:29 Denis i am back 15:29 JYL Stephen I'm your servitor ! 15:29 rach So I think we need to attract some people interested in this to the project 15:29 JYL be the tyrant of our common documentation ! 15:30 shedges hmmm. if you guys decide on the right doc tools, i do a pretty good tyrant act! 15:30 rach if we can't bully stephen into doing it :-) 15:30 JYL be the tyrant of our common documentation ! 15:30 rach Paul/Denis what does NeoDoc cost? 15:30 Denis Paul? 15:30 slef To be honest, I think the first stage is for the RM to start refusing undocumented commits. My attempts to understand and describe koha have been hindered by undocumented code. 15:31 chris good point 15:31 shedges yep, that's basic 15:31 jmlongo yep.. 15:31 paul something like 700Euros for setting up the site. 15:31 shedges would everyone who wrotes docs have to have a neodoc license? 15:32 paul NO, it's only free software based 15:32 paul and it's only help for setting up Borges 15:32 paul and helping organising the work 15:32 paul they also provide proof reading. 15:33 paul they propose 300E for each document structure to set. 15:33 paul (after the 700 set up fee) 15:33 jmlongo wow! 15:33 slef Is it web-based? 15:33 chris wow is right 15:33 rach yes it is 15:34 shedges what else is out there? 15:34 chris i wonder, could we send someone off on a mission to find that out 15:34 slef We can probably forget about my customers using web-based systems, as they have slow lines. 15:34 emiliano sorry but I think we're discussing about tools when the real problem is effort-people isn't it? 15:34 slef emiliano++ 15:34 owen Yes 15:34 rach yep 15:35 chris so step 1 15:35 shedges OK, but the bullying people to make the effort would be my task. 15:35 chris try to gather together some doc writers 15:35 shedges yep 15:35 rach yep - but we need some people to actually do the writing 15:35 paul ok, but i was speaking of them because of stephen writing. 15:35 emiliano I think we'll do documentation for librarians but in spanish ;-) 15:35 chris step 2, then find out out what tools would ork 15:35 chris work too 15:35 paul yes rach, but HOW to explain what & how to write ? 15:36 Denis emiliano in dutch ;-) 15:36 shedges doing docs in other languages is OK, as long as we share. 15:36 shedges i learn a lot from paul's docs 15:36 emiliano ok we'll publish 15:36 paul paul's doc ? which one ? 15:36 shedges wiki stuff 15:36 paul ok 15:36 paul but wiki is OK only for developpers. 15:37 rach Yes 15:37 paul for librarians we need a nice PDF printable document 15:37 jmlongo that's true... 15:37 rach yes 15:37 shedges format comes after content 15:37 rach but could we start with getting the actual information on the wiki? 15:37 shedges how do we build the content? 15:37 JYL Could we agree on simple approach, 0) release new functions 1) online help 2) end user manual and so on ,! 15:37 rach OK here is a quick summary of where I think we are at with this 15:38 rach We currently do very patchy documentation and help 15:38 paul mmm... maybe JYL did the suggestion we need to leave this forever lasting question of the chicken & the egg 15:38 Denis Online help is very important for me 15:38 rach and we don't have tools that are well liked to do it 15:38 slef shedges: need to figure out what is most important, first 15:39 shedges finish the online help for 2.2 15:39 paul yep. 15:39 Denis I agree 15:39 JYL right ! 15:39 paul (koha.org still inaccessible from france) 15:39 rach SO we need a voulunteer to do that? 15:39 slef Do we have a 2.2 test server with "Help" links going to the wiki? 15:40 paul no, but that may be a good idea slef. 15:40 JYL Paul, do we get the needed "change langage" button in the 2.2 release ?! 15:40 Denis Paul : this is a G. W. Bush action 15:40 chris i commited it jyl, and a smaple template 15:40 chris sample too 15:40 JYL BRAVO ! 15:40 paul i've included it in official OPAC 15:40 chris it will need to be added to whatever templates you want it on 15:41 paul (it's now on opac-main.pl, with CSS template. appears only when you're logged) 15:41 chris back to documentation... i think stephen has been bullied into be a tyrant 15:41 shedges (can that be done??) 15:41 chris ud think not :-) 15:41 rach Yep 15:42 owen Stephen doesn't need any encouragement to be a tyrant! ;) 15:42 rach OK it is now officially stephens problem :-) 15:42 chris so the next step is a call for doc writers .. to try and build a team? 15:42 shedges chris will look for good tools? 15:42 JYL yes, just requires for our help 15:42 chris and then decide what to focus on 15:42 chris and how 15:42 rach yep I think so, stephen up for that? 15:42 shedges yep 15:42 jmlongo :) 15:42 rach great 15:43 rach Next... 15:43 paul wow, the koha team will be very long & worldwide ;-) 15:43 chris stephen: yep ill do a look, but it probably wont be until after the honeymoon, so others could look as well 15:43 Denis could we summarize about documentation? 15:43 paul chris goes for honeymoon, paul goes for baby... 15:43 chris :) 15:43 jmlongo I'll look up too... 15:43 shedges ok, chris, you're excused for a while! 15:43 paul but no more than 2 weeks ;-) 15:43 chris heh 15:44 JYL Stephen, what do you think, we focus on 'end user manual' ?! 15:44 emiliano end user 15:44 emiliano librarian? 15:44 shedges yes indeed! 15:44 jmlongo End USER!!... yeah!! :) 15:44 Denis OPAC? 15:44 JYL yes, sorry emiliano 15:44 paul no, i think jyl speaks of librarian (vs developper) 15:44 shedges the admin help and the opac help are the most important 15:44 JYL I'm still using that silly IT langage... 15:45 rach Stephen has agreed to be the "project manager" for documentation, to organise the various documentation efforts, encourage developers to write the tech stuff, and some other people to translate that for librarians, and into other languages 15:45 slef OPAC is end user, please don't confuse that. 15:45 owen patron is the end user of the opac, librarians are the end users of the intranet 15:45 rach He will send the list an e-mail about that and like the 2.4 release conversation 15:45 slef end user of the library uses the OPAC. koha is not yet the center of this world ;-) 15:46 paul & i'll bug french mailing list too... 15:46 rach we can have a more focused indepth one on documentation on list 15:46 chris give us time slef :-) 15:46 rach rather than right now :-) 15:46 slef shedges++ 15:46 chris sounds good 15:46 rach Right - I think that Koha hosting is next? 15:46 Denis U can use RoboDemo to make some films 15:46 paul what ? slef ? you are really sure Koha is not the center of this world ? i'm very disappointed :-D 15:47 rach I'm hoping that Mike will sort out the whole sitemap/how to find stuff, bit 15:47 slef Will shedges chair the list discussion? 15:47 jmlongo it depends on what world u live :) 15:47 shedges on koha? or koha-devel? 15:47 paul lol 15:47 JYL Could we have a sourceforge mailing list dedicated to documentation ? 15:48 JYL Or do we continue on the Wiki only ?! 15:48 slef JYL: wait for traffic to be high enough. shedges: I suspect koha. 15:48 shedges OK 15:48 paul so, webhosting ? 15:48 shedges (let's the list lurkers know we're working on it) 15:50 chris what was koha hosting about rach? 15:50 slef so, webhosting ? 15:51 jmlongo webhosting of what? 15:51 paul it was related to the various web hostings we have i suspect 15:51 rach umm I think it was about finding all the koha websites 15:51 paul yep. 15:51 rach yes- rather than changing the hostings 15:51 paul i think there are a lot of web sites related to koha 15:51 paul and it's not easy for a newbie to find all informations. 15:51 rach Yes 15:52 russ that is confusing 15:52 indradg hi all... sorry for being late... :) 15:52 paul afaik, www.koha.org/irc is announced nowhere ! 15:52 paul (it's just an example) 15:52 jmlongo that's true 15:52 chris yep 15:52 rach True 15:52 rach right Mike - you still here? 15:52 mikem yep still here 15:52 paul and slef site too. 15:52 slef paul: it's linked from Kohao so, webhosting ? 15:52 paul and wiki too. 15:52 rach how do you feel about turning into super sleuth, and finding all the useful Koha stuff 15:53 paul ??? slef ??? 15:53 slef paul: it's linked from AnglKohao. 15:53 mikem rach: that is the plan ... will start with a page on the Wiki, so that people can add links that they know off 15:53 slef sorry, mispasted a mo ago 15:53 rach and working out how to make the koha.org site the "hub" so that people find things 15:53 rach and it all makes a bit more sense 15:54 rach Cool - and as you're just up the road 15:54 rach you can come in here and get a training session on koha website 15:54 slef mikem: have you a bugs.koha.org account and will chris reassign web bugs to you? 15:54 russ rach - i can do that 15:54 chris yep, and yep 15:55 mikem Slef ... yes I have ... and I will hit that shortly 15:55 rach Excellent 15:55 rach SO I think the last thing is bugs? 15:55 paul so, we could add a link from www.koha.org, www.koha-fr.org, slef site & kados & other to this common wiki page. 15:55 chris well now we have russ as QA 15:55 paul good solution. 15:56 slef paul: what common wiki page? 15:56 chris he can start reassigning bugs, pestering people 15:56 Denis A problem is the mix of informations concerning different versions of KOHA 15:56 rach www.koha.org/wiki 15:56 paul slef : see mikem line 15:57 chris yes you are right denis, there is old information that shold dissapear 15:57 rach yes denis that is a problem 15:57 slef OK. Why not use the koha webring idea? 15:57 slef Information should be clearly versioned or dated. 15:57 paul for both koha.org & koha-fr.org. 15:57 Denis In the web site the documentation should be ordrered by version 15:57 rach ok that is a good idea 15:57 JYL yes we need to add an archive section on the wiki for older releases. 15:58 paul not just on wiki. 15:58 paul on website too 15:58 rach Mike you gather the ideas, and then let me know what you need for the Koha site, and come in and we can talk with the techs here about how to achieve it 15:58 rach if that works for you 15:58 JYL yeah, probably on website too... 15:58 mikem no worries Rach 15:58 rach So out of this meeting we are going to get 3 "roadmaps" basically 15:59 rach one for the 2.4 release 15:59 rach one for the documentation 15:59 rach and one for the website/online stuff 15:59 rach I think 15:59 chris well 3 discussions 15:59 rach yes - that;s what I meant 15:59 chris and from those discussions will come roadmaps 15:59 rach yes 15:59 rach and then ACTION :-) 16:00 slef Is there a release target date for 2.2? 16:00 paul 1 month 16:00 rach great 16:00 Denis tomorrow Paul? 16:00 Denis ;-) 16:00 paul today is 2.1.2 16:01 paul Ecole des Mines de Nantes will begin with 2.1.2 in real life soon 16:01 paul (1 week or so) 16:01 paul as I think there are no more blocking bugs. 16:01 rach woo exciting 16:01 shedges we won't have complete docs for 2.2 in one month. 16:01 emiliano A question.. 16:01 paul :-( 16:01 paul yep emiliano ? 16:01 shedges but probably the online docs can be pretty well done 16:01 JYL good remark Stephen 16:01 jmlongo bu the disclaimer says that we should NEVER NEVER NEVER use it production! 16:02 slef There will be 2.0.2 this week, too. Biblio fix, removal of spanish suggestion and whatever other bugs are squashed in the next 24 hours. 16:02 jmlongo :) 16:02 paul yep. 16:02 emiliano what are the criterias for introducing new tables in a release 16:02 emiliano in the database I mean 16:02 paul i think it needs too many attention to be able to release it publicly. 16:02 chris cool slef 16:02 rach way to go slef 16:02 paul we need more testing of the installer/updater. 16:03 chris documentation about why/how they are used emiliano 16:03 chris and a way to upgrade from the old db 16:03 emiliano ok could be posted in misc scripts from cvs 16:03 slef Can bugs.koha.org defaults be updated, please? Lots of stuff still gets assigned to Steve. 16:03 Denis documetion wil be only for 2.2 and 2.4 not for 2.0? 16:04 chris there is an updatedabase script, so usually just editing that, and then writing some documentation about what the new tables are for 16:04 paul denis => you can see irc logs on koha.org/irc 16:04 paul (saying this in case your battery is ended) 16:04 Denis thank you Paul 16:04 slef Denis: 2.0 is getting sysadmin documentation as I find it, but will probably not get librarian or end-user docs. 16:04 Denis oki slef 16:05 paul emiliano => all updates of DB must be done through updater/updatedatabase script. 16:05 paul but it has to be cleaned, because it's from 1.0.0 DB... 16:05 emiliano ok 16:06 paul I think it could be modified to update from 2.0 to 2.4 16:06 paul & we could say "if you have a 1.2 version, update to 2.0, THEN to 2.4" 16:06 rach So is there anything else on the agenda for today? CVS v's ARCH was mentioned 16:06 paul yep. 16:06 rach otherwise we can lapse into general discussion 16:06 chris ive gotta go, ill be back in a little while 16:07 paul bye chris 16:07 mikem l8r chris 16:07 paul slef ? something to say about CVS vs ARCH ? 16:07 owen slef, did you want to bring up specific bugs? 16:07 rach oh yes - I can do a summary of the bugs if anyone still can't get to bugs.koha.org 16:08 emiliano paul, another little question 16:08 paul (denis battery has ended...) 16:08 paul yes emiliano 16:08 slef paul: What do you want to know? Managing 2.0 became very easy after the move, as I can make prerelease tarballs with a single command (no extra download space) and the buildrelease.pl goes away 16:08 mikem bugs.koha.org works fine for me ;-) 16:08 emiliano Serials didn't introduce new tables? 16:08 paul yes. 16:08 emiliano ok 16:08 slef It's just a shame that no other public archives for 2.0 were posted, but I guess 2.2 has all the appeal for developers now. 16:08 paul they introduce 3 tables. 16:09 rach So Slef would you advocate eveyone moving ot it? 16:09 owen The issue of CVS vs. Arch doesn't hing solely on the ease of use for developers. There are also the /end users/ to think about 16:09 emiliano are there in updatedatabase? 16:09 paul yes 16:09 emiliano ok 16:09 emiliano nice!! 16:09 rach is there generally a problem with different releases using different systems (I'm assuming there is) 16:09 paul owen => why are end users concened by cvs/arch ? 16:09 slef rach: yes, but it would be best if we can offer arch hosting if there are developers who need it. 16:09 rach but happy to be corrected 16:10 slef owen: I hope putting troublesome bugs in the topic is enough attention that people will look at it when the meeting finishes ;-) 16:10 owen Well, there's the issue of the CVS mailing list. And there's the Web view available through Sourceforge--even though it's not updated often enough, it can be useful at times 16:11 paul my question about arch is : is every developper ready to switch to this new platform ? 16:11 slef rach: I think it's a more general communication problem. When I ask 2.2 developers for patches, most ignore them. 16:11 paul this means having a learning curve 16:11 shedges yeah, i think the reasons to switch have to be pretty strong. 16:12 slef owen: as far as I can remember, no-one raised the issue of the CVS mailing list until 2 hours ago. I can probably configure that. 16:12 rach but slef for maintenance you think that aarch is good? 16:12 paul i know the weaknesses of CVS, & deals with them 16:12 rach or for development too? 16:12 paul but if everybody want to switch, i'll switch too. 16:12 shedges i still haven't figured arch out :-( 16:12 slef I think it's essential for maintenance, but would help make it easier to get new developers. 16:12 paul (i even have found a complete tutorial in french ;-) ) 16:13 slef shedges: have you seen http://www.mjr.dsl.pipex.com/uzu-arkon.html ? 16:13 shedges yep 16:13 slef email me questions about it and I'll try to answer swiftly 16:13 paul slef => you really think it will be easier to ge new developers ? because ppl uses often CVS, but who uses arch ? 16:14 slef paul: at present, new developers have a hard time using revision control until they are given commit access to the main tree. arch solves that and also makes merging branches easier. 16:14 paul from a tech point of view, you're completly right. 16:15 paul but, for example, Emiliano => if koha had been with arch 16:15 slef paul: so, yes. User numbers aren't that relevant, as long as it's about as easy, otherwise we'd all be using Microsoft and Penlib or something, wouldn't we? 16:15 paul would it have changed something to your choice ? 16:15 paul (= choice to get involved in Koha) 16:15 paul (emiliano or matias) 16:16 emiliano I think no, i find 16:16 paul slef => right ;-) 16:16 emiliano cvs very difficult 16:16 emiliano and very time-consuming 16:16 paul ok, so if everybody is ready to switch to arch, i agree 16:16 paul katipo & Nelsonville => your opinion ? 16:17 emiliano but don't think it will restrict access to others 16:17 russ it is a shame chris had to leave 16:17 rach to give our opinion 16:17 russ i am sure he has an opinion 16:17 shedges i'll keep trying (with slef's help) 16:17 rach so that it doesn't interfere with the release of 2.1/2.2 16:17 owen I'm worried about the transition to arch because I'm used to a Windows GUI. But I'm definitely in the minority there. I'll go with whatever is agreed upon. 16:18 rach is that a sensible approach? 16:18 shedges yep 16:18 JYL Am I right saying that this source management choice 16:18 paul owen => there are some GUI on arch 16:18 slef owen: yes, windows support is somewhat lacking for arch, that's true. You'll need a CVS gateway or cygwin IIRC. 16:18 MattH as someone with years of cvs experience, i'd be backing staying with cvs 16:18 JYL is only linked with future 2.4 release ?! 16:18 MattH but then i'm not what you'd call and active koha developer 16:19 MattH please forgive my intrusion 16:19 rach (not yet :-) 16:19 paul look here : http://better-scm.berlios.de/comparison/comparison.html for various nice GUI for arch 16:19 rach OK - what I would like so that we can make a sensible choice 16:20 rach is for a quick run down on what is good about CVS 16:20 rach what is bad or difficult in CVS 16:20 paul now ? 16:20 rach what problems ARCH solves 16:20 russ i would say a email to the dev list would be the go 16:20 rach and what some potential problems with a change might be 16:20 rach because to me, this is hearts and minds stuff for developers 16:21 paul slef, you initiate the thread ? 16:21 rach I *know* you are all capable of learning a new thing, as long as you see that it is worthwhile 16:21 slef http://wiki.gnuarch.org/moin.cgi/SubVersionAndCvsComparison 16:21 slef I'll hang on for a few in case here are questions here, then summarise in the first email. 16:22 rach that would be great thanks slef 16:22 matias people...I´m leaving...gotta go... 16:22 rach thanks matias 16:22 paul bye matias 16:22 rach OK i think that is the end of the formal part of the meeting? 16:23 matias bye Paul...bye all... 16:23 matias see you... 16:23 rach it is now time for drinks and nibbles :-) 16:23 russ mike give me a call on the Katipo number when you are ready to come in about the website 16:23 JYL or a little rest for us maybe ?! 16:23 rach or to thrash out anything else, if people are keen to hang about 16:24 rach or yes rest for you :-) 16:24 emiliano a little out of topic 16:24 emiliano didn't you receive 16:24 mikem russ ... no worries ... rach: when are you back from the US? 16:24 emiliano comments about mysql license 16:24 emiliano changes 16:24 JYL Ok, thanks for this interesting discussion folks ! 16:24 emiliano and Koha relation with it? 16:25 paul bye jean yves 16:25 paul have a good night 16:25 JYL Stephen don't hesitate to ask for help 16:25 shedges thanks! 16:25 rach back on the 18th of October 16:25 JYL Bye ! and Paul tell me about your installer tests... 16:25 mikem thanks Rach 16:26 rach thanks for coming everyone, a bit of a marathon meeting 16:26 JYL Rach, should be a good idea to plan the next meeting maybe ?! 16:26 slef emiliano: they just broadened the exception a bit, didn't they? 16:26 russ paul i will send you and email about the qa stuff 16:26 paul JYL => 1000% right ! 16:26 paul ok 16:26 shedges 2 weeks? 16:27 slef Plan meeting on list, else we make it hard for people not here now. 16:27 emiliano bad time to question :-) 16:27 rach yes I agree slef 16:27 JYL 2 short meetings a month is fine for me 16:28 paul jyl : the problem is that it's rarely short ;-) 16:28 russ bye all 16:29 JYL yeah, we probably need more german co-workers to stress timing issues... lol 16:29 slef JYL: xenophobe 16:30 JYL Ok, still need to test a few things, bye and have a good night 16:30 paul bye JYL 16:30 MattH it's a stereotype, not xenophobia 16:30 JYL slef, take a look at where I live and you will understand that I love my neighbours ! 16:31 shedges bye jean yves 16:31 shedges bye paul 16:31 shedges bye all, i'm gone, too 16:31 jmlongo Paul: you wanted to talk about po files? 16:31 paul right. 16:31 paul (it's almost midnight here. i was forgotting...) 16:32 jmlongo or are your battteries too low? :) 16:32 paul I've set up a webserver for french translation. 16:32 paul it uses kartouche. 16:32 emiliano paul seems to be solar 16:32 paul (look at bureau.paulpoulain.com/ kartouche) 16:32 paul (without the space) 16:32 paul it works fine for any iso5589-1 language i think 16:32 mikem chris: just for when you get back, I have updated bugs.koha.org to make myself the initial contact for the website related bugs/issues 16:33 paul so I could set up a .po file for spanish translation too 16:33 paul and generate the official .po file from there 16:33 slef what about utf-8? 16:33 paul (if you need some help, of course) 16:33 paul slef => i don't know. i haven't dig 16:33 slef How do we use .po files at the minute? 16:34 paul misc/translator/tmpl_process3.pl to generate/update the .po 16:34 paul and to generate the translated templates 16:34 jmlongo that would be grat.. 16:34 paul kartouche "eats" the .po file & can regenerate it after translations. 16:34 paul so, the process is : 16:35 paul * tmpl_process3.pl create/update 16:35 paul * import into kartouche 16:35 paul * translate 16:35 paul * export .po file again 16:35 paul * tmpl_process3.pl generate 16:35 emiliano it seems to be very nice 16:35 emiliano is OSS? 16:35 paul yep. 16:35 paul (used by a kde translation team) 16:36 paul (for hungarian or something like that) 16:36 jmlongo we were planning to use kbabel... because of it's database facilities 16:36 emiliano is there a way to "remember" terms or phrases? 16:36 kados hi all 16:36 paul a little bit hacked by me 16:36 paul hi kados. 16:36 kados sorry I'm late 16:36 jmlongo does kartouche offers something similar? 16:36 paul no, you arrive after the battle ;-) 16:36 kados hehe 16:36 slef kartouche is originally welsh 16:36 paul right 16:36 slef and has omnivore as a translation memory 16:36 paul right too 16:37 emiliano omnivore? 16:37 jmlongo ??? 16:37 slef another web system 16:37 paul but i don't know how to use omnivore. 16:37 slef me neither... I translate files with a text editor atm 16:38 emiliano I'm worried about reusing translations 16:38 emiliano but it seems to be nice for seeing the advances 16:39 emiliano in translation for a distributed group 16:39 emiliano for example 16:39 paul right 16:39 slef context is everything, but I think the kyfieithu developers know that 16:40 slef Are there plans to use the .po files directly from koha? 16:40 paul not for instance. 16:40 paul but it's a good idea 16:41 paul (a lot of things are good ideas in fact... the problem being to do them ;-) ) 16:41 jmlongo so we wouldn't have to 'generate' templates? 16:41 paul yep 16:41 paul (but in fact they will be generated on the fly) 16:41 jmlongo (I see) 16:42 emiliano wondefull!!! 16:42 paul what is wonderful ? 16:42 slef Might it make the "select language" feature easier to support? 16:42 paul mmm... yes & no. 16:42 jmlongo I guees emiliano like things 'on the fly' ;) 16:43 emiliano yes 16:44 paul a conclusion on .po subject ? 16:45 paul (midnight in 15 minuts here... want to go to bed ;-) ) 16:45 emiliano I think we could test Kartouche, installing here 16:45 emiliano or opening 16:45 slef I guess it's up to emiliano to discuss. 16:45 emiliano a new project 16:45 slef How am I supposed to ask translators for updated templates? 16:45 emiliano inside your Kartouche 16:46 paul slef => probably on translation mailing list. 16:46 paul emiliano => i'm ok to add your .po file to bureau.paulpoulain.com 16:46 chris www.koha.org/irc 16:46 kados sweet 16:47 emiliano what do you think Martin? 16:47 paul emiliano => just send your almost-translated .po file, & i'll take care of it. 16:47 paul we cuold begin by opac.po 16:47 emiliano I have opac.po translated 16:47 jmlongo well... we could give it a try.. 16:47 paul just note that bureau.paulpoulain.com is my local computer. 16:47 paul and may be switched off 16:47 emiliano mmmm 16:47 slef paul: they didn't answer a request for help with spanish, so I'm dropping it from the suggested list in 2.0.2 16:48 jmlongo eeks 16:48 slef (librarian interface and existing users can continue anyway) 16:48 paul (i'll have a new 24/7 webserver in a few months) 16:49 emiliano Well, I will speak with Martin 16:49 paul slef=> nothing to say about this. I've no libraries using spanish koha, so i'm OK 16:49 paul kartouche is quite easy to set up 16:49 paul the biggest difficulty is to find where to download it 16:49 paul www.freshmeat.net was my friend here 16:49 jmlongo we'll work on it 16:49 emiliano ok 16:50 slef paul: not on www.kyfieithu.co.uk? 16:50 slef yes, www.kyfieithy.co.uk -> Downloads 16:50 slef kyfieithu damnit 16:51 paul no, it's 0.0.1 it seems. 16:51 slef my fingers don't speak welsh 16:51 paul freshmeat points to 0.0.2 16:51 jmlongo does kartouche have an english interface? 16:51 slef ah, have you let Kevin know? 16:51 paul yep jmlongo 16:51 paul no. 16:52 emiliano jajajaja 16:52 emiliano Martin, perhaps must start translating 16:52 paul http://www.kyfieithu.co.uk/downloads/kartouche-v0.2.tar.gz 16:52 emiliano Kartouche 16:52 jmlongo yessss... 16:53 jmlongo ok... I'm downbloading it now... 16:53 jmlongo we'll see 16:53 emiliano ok 16:54 jmlongo I tried to apt-get it... but no luck... :P 16:54 jmlongo If we can work it out... maybe we can host po translations for othere :*) 16:55 paul ok, do you let me go to bed ? 16:55 slef jmlongo: I need to educate them in the ways of debian before apt-get will work ;-) 16:55 emiliano for me it's ok Paul 16:55 jmlongo haha... I'll have to waut then... :) 16:55 emiliano regards and thanx a lot 16:56 slef Does the koha 2.4 proposed features only have one item in it at the moment? 16:56 jmlongo well... have nice dreams Paul! 16:56 emiliano nooo 16:56 paul ok, bye bye. 16:56 emiliano 5 items 16:56 emiliano and more for doing (?) 16:56 slef I only see Barcodes generator. 16:56 slef I am looking at http://biblio.fisica.unlp.edu.ar/sitio/librarian/kohapf/ 16:56 emiliano there is a little botton 16:56 emiliano down 16:56 emiliano that says Next 16:57 emiliano and barcodes is included in 2.1.2 16:57 emiliano less for 2.4 16:57 jmlongo ok guys.. I'll have to leave now... 16:57 emiliano slef, do you see 16:57 emiliano ? 16:57 slef Can that be made more obvious, please? I mistook it for part of the text. 16:58 slef kados: date --utc 16:58 owen Too bad you didn't calculate an hour early like I did. It worked out better. 16:58 jmlongo thanks for all 16:58 emiliano sure 16:58 jmlongo bye! 16:58 slef jmlongo: bye 16:58 emiliano I'll try to put in a entire document 16:58 emiliano bye Martin 17:00 kados I'm skeptical of the neodoc thing ... 17:00 kados pretty expensive ... 17:00 kados I think all we need is vi and some time :-) 17:01 emiliano I think we need volunteers 17:01 paul mmm... kados, remember the doc is not written by developpers (librarian doc i mean) 17:01 emiliano I could obtain but for spanish only 17:02 kados which docs do you mean? the sysadmin manual? 17:02 slef Also, moving to arch would let 2.4RMs ask developers for code docs before accepting work... not sure if that would work or not 17:02 kados or librarian docs? 17:02 paul no, the librarian doc 17:03 emiliano well, I'm also leaving 17:03 emiliano regards to all 17:03 kados cao 17:03 rach ciao emiliano 17:08 kados dunno ... his website appears down: http://pate.eylerfamily.org/ 17:10 rach yeah I noticed that 17:10 kados rach: you could always use the wayback machine: 17:10 kados http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://pate.eylerfamily.org/ 17:11 rach true - although I don't think that site had his addy on it 17:11 kados ahh 17:14 slef whois eylerfamily.org has an address 17:14 slef no idea whose 17:15 Jo Good morning 17:15 mikem rach ... nsr would probably have his addy 17:16 Jo Si: can I send a fax to you (telstra proposal for branches) for a quick squizz before I meet him? 17:16 rach ok ta 17:20 Jo rach: can i fax something to katipo for si to get sometime before Thursday? 17:22 rach yes do it now 17:22 rach 04-934 1286 17:22 rach he is here 17:27 Jo cool 17:27 Jo thanks 17:29 rach no prob 17:40 rach Jo is the handwriting important? 17:40 rach because we can't really read that 17:46 Jo nope 17:46 Jo my scribble 17:47 Jo i will email down my questions to si - they cover the handwriting 17:47 rach ok 17:47 rach have got 20 pages 17:47 rach is that the right number 18:04 slef kados: just replying to your old email. Sorry for the lag. 18:42 slef http://www.kyfieithu.co.uk/manual.html