IRC log for #koha, 2022-06-22

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
00:13 davidnind[m] FYI: Agenda for the next Development IRC Meeting https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]ting_22_June_2022
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04:32 ClaireStro Hi all, I hope you are well! I finally have successfully updated the version 21.05 of Koha (we previously had version 3 ...). However when I catalog new records and edit items, there is an issue: I uploaded two screenshots on Imgur here : . If you have any idea why the message "No results found" appears and the scrolll down doesn't work, please let me know! Thank you and have a great day!
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05:38 thd mtj: Are you present?
05:39 thd mtj[m]: Are you present?
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06:07 liliputech joined #koha
06:07 liliputech hi koha
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06:27 cait joined #koha
06:27 reiveune hello
06:27 cait hi reiveune, hi #koha
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06:34 thd Does anyone know why irc logs at is redirecting to with a 502 error?
06:36 thd cait1: Are you present?
06:38 cait1 ys
06:38 cait1 well kind of, meeting soon
06:39 cait1 thd?
06:39 wahanui thd is helping a couple of old people who are very well secluded.  The time spent shopping, etc. for myself and others with distancing queues outside and inside for hours is the big problem sinking time.
06:41 thd yes that is correct wahanui :)
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06:42 alex_ Bonjour
06:43 thd cait1: Some of those people went wanting this week but at least I found two consecutive days to mush things together.
06:44 cait1 which things?
06:45 thd cait1: Well these git://​ate-mwiki-db-and-upgrade-test.git
06:47 cait1 ok, so what is the next step?
06:48 thd It currently takes about an hour on my VPS to generate , ,
06:48 thd and .
06:48 thd mtj was working on automated validation while I finished other testing.
06:49 cait1 ooh test update
06:49 cait1 nice
06:49 cait1 thd++ mtj++
06:49 thd Those testing sites go down or become slow when I overwork my VPS.
06:50 cait1 so do you want me to do some manual testing?
06:51 thd Most overwork of my VPS is non-koha related and if I forget to check the OOM killer will kill mysqld and I have to bring it back up.
06:52 cait1 thd: really happy to hear about the process progressing and this looks great on first glance
06:52 cait1 do you need me to do something?
06:53 thd cait1: Sure, just remember that doing everything by script leaves a newly installed reinstallation or upgrade in a strage state for indexing etc. until real word use has occurred.
06:53 cait1 if I see soemthing odd, how should I report it?
06:54 cait1 I think you had a special email address set up IIRC?
06:54 thd cait1: You should expect to see something odd :)
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06:55 thd In terms of index result set ordering or other changes which will require actual use to restore.
06:56 thd You should not see missing wiki pages, mangled, or truncated content etc.
06:57 cait1 ok
06:57 thd The testing sites have been up for at least a year and a half I think.
06:57 cait1 is this what this message is about? Change propagation updates are pending (6 jobs  estimated) and it is recommended to wait with modifications to a  category until the process has been finalized to prevent intermediary  interruptions or contradictory specifications.
06:57 cait1 it's showing here: https://koha-mw-my-test01-upgr[…]:Koha_Conferences
06:59 thd I accidentally used all file space on the VPS a day ago and may need to regenerate to correct for some problem.
06:59 cait1 i like the new editor for categories
06:59 cait1 and also the visual editor
07:00 cait1 I think it will make it easier for a lot of people to help with contents
07:00 thd That may be a message of the sort one sees for several days after reinstallation while some processes run gradually.
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07:03 thd There are a few bugs and configuration changes to fix which leave everything down for at least an hour at a time during testing.  It used to take three hours with some excess reindexing.
07:05 thd cait1: td-koha-wiki-db-migrate-update AT
07:06 cait1 ok, I will look for content issues then
07:06 cait1 mostly
07:08 dcook Hmm Bugzilla down or just me?
07:09 liliputech bugzilla down...
07:09 dcook Booo
07:09 thd cait1: That message you found links to instructions for managing the job queue to which I had not yet given attention.  Very good find!!!
07:09 dcook bug 19704
07:09 dcook Yeah I shouldn't have expected that to work..
07:09 liliputech just when i was succeeding at using the release-tools and fetching the comments for the release-notes --'
07:11 cait1 often it's just a temporary glitch because someone is making too many requests
07:11 cait1 thd: glad I could help :)
07:11 magnuse_ 502 Bad Gateway
07:11 cait1 got to run to my meetings now, sadly going to take all morning, but feel free to leave me any messages here
07:11 dcook cait1: I swear it wasn't me..
07:12 dcook There's a Koha issue from 2016 in my bug tracker which has been annoying me so I finally write a patch instead of just complaining about it... then Bugzilla is down hehe
07:12 dcook I'll post it tomorrow though!
07:12 dcook I'm sure everyone will hate it but I'm planning to backport it locally anyway heh
07:13 thd The following redirect seems like more than a temporary glitch: irc logs at is redirecting to with a 502 error.
07:13 dcook Good night/morning folks :)
07:14 dcook thd: It's the same server so probably related
07:14 * dcook really leaves this time
07:20 magnuse_ have fun dcook
07:46 liliputech still no bugzilla... :(
07:57 liliputech !ping
08:01 ashimema Had anyone tried rangi
08:04 fridolin mmm it is late in NZ
08:23 magnuse half past eight?
08:23 davidnind[m] It's nearly 8:30pm here in NZ, so not too late
08:30 ashimema OK, I've signalled him
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08:41 ashimema he's on the case.. should be back up now but he's still tracing the cause 🙂
08:41 ashimema rangi++
08:43 magnuse rangi++
08:43 magnuse looks like could do with an update? or am i the only one using it?
08:45 ashimema I think I reporteed that a little while ago.. can't remember where it's hosted but I think we should perhaps bind it to push on gitlab ci and set up a new light host for it
08:45 ashimema perhaps a prettier one too
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09:03 magnuse ashimema: sounds good to me :-)
09:10 liliputech !ping
09:10 ashimema !pong
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09:18 liliputech oh thx :)
09:20 ashimema hehe
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09:41 liliputech reboot!
09:43 liliputech joined #koha
09:43 liliputech back
09:47 koha-jenkins Project Koha_21.11_D10 build #112: SUCCESS in 33 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]ha_21.11_D10/112/
09:48 alohabot 🎁 🐻 Koha '21.11.x' packages pushed to 'koha-staging' repo  ðŸœðŸ¥ ðŸ¥‘
09:52 liliputech \o/ just pushed the release :) if all tests are good release will be announced by the end of the day :)
09:55 koha-jenkins Project Koha_21.11_U20 build #97: SUCCESS in 41 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]oha_21.11_U20/97/
10:15 koha-jenkins Project Koha_21.11_U18 build #104: SUCCESS in 1 hr 0 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]ha_21.11_U18/104/
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10:20 koha-jenkins Project Koha_21.11_U22 build #32: SUCCESS in 33 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]oha_21.11_U22/32/
10:21 koha-jenkins Yippee, build fixed!
10:21 koha-jenkins Project Koha_21.11_D11 build #125: FIXED in 1 hr 8 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]ha_21.11_D11/125/
10:21 wahanui Congratulations!
10:34 koha-jenkins Project Koha_21.11_D9 build #93: SUCCESS in 1 hr 19 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]Koha_21.11_D9/93/
10:38 magnuse__ joined #koha
10:38 liliputech yay!
10:39 koha-jenkins Project Koha_21.11_D12 build #87: SUCCESS in 44 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]oha_21.11_D12/87/
10:47 astyles Hi hope your having a good one, I am currently using the skeleton template to attempt removal of a test system preference in MARIA DB, when I run the and error returns...
10:47 astyles ```test1-koha@ubuntu2204:~$ perl /usr/share/koha/intranet/cgi-bin/ins​taller/data/mysql/
10:47 astyles DEV atomic update /usr/share/koha/intranet/cgi-bin/insta​ller/data/mysql/atomicupdate/bug_12345​  [10:32:28]: Bug 12345 - remove new system preference IntranetHomeEotd
10:47 astyles ERROR - {UNKNOWN}: DBI Exception: DBD::mysql::db do failed: You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MariaDB server version for the right syntax to use near '( `variable`, `value`, `options`, `explanation`, `type` ) VALUES ('IntranetHo...' at line 1 at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/ line 739
10:47 astyles ```
10:47 huginn Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=12345 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, CLOSED INVALID, Can't Clear Reading History for Anonymous patron
10:47 astyles Any help? thanks so much
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10:56 tcohen morning #koha
10:57 tcohen astyles: what does the code look like?
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10:59 astyles ```
10:59 astyles use Modern::Perl;
10:59 astyles return {
10:59 astyles bug_number => "12345",
10:59 astyles description => "remove new system preference IntranetHomeEotd",
10:59 astyles up => sub {
10:59 astyles my ($args) = @_;
11:00 astyles my ($dbh, $out) = @$args{qw(dbh out)};
11:00 astyles $dbh->do(q{DELETE FROM systempreferences ( `variable`, `value`, `options`, `explanation`, `type` ) VALUES ('IntranetHomeEotd', '','70|10', 'Add a fun emoji of the day to the home page of the circulation module', 'Textarea') });
11:00 astyles },
11:00 astyles };
11:00 astyles use Modern::Perl;
11:00 astyles return {
11:00 astyles bug_number => "12345",
11:00 astyles description => "remove IntranetHomeEotd from DB ",
11:00 astyles up => sub {
11:00 astyles my ($args) = @_;
11:00 astyles my ($dbh, $out) = @$args{qw(dbh out)};
11:00 astyles # Do you stuffs here
11:00 astyles $dbh->do(q{});
11:00 astyles # Print useful stuff here
11:00 astyles say $out "Update is going well so far";
11:00 wahanui i already had it that way, astyles.
11:00 astyles },
11:00 astyles };
11:00 astyles ```
11:00 astyles 8-]
11:01 astyles is my DELETE FROM syntax correct? to remove sys pref?
11:01 astyles opps whait a sec
11:02 astyles ```se Modern::Perl;
11:02 astyles return {
11:02 astyles bug_number => "12345",
11:02 astyles description => "remove new system preference IntranetHomeEotd",
11:02 astyles up => sub {
11:02 astyles my ($args) = @_;
11:02 astyles my ($dbh, $out) = @$args{qw(dbh out)};
11:02 astyles $dbh->do(q{DELETE FROM systempreferences ( `variable`, `value`, `options`, `explanation`, `type` ) VALUES ('IntranetHomeEotd', '','70|10', 'Add a fun emoji of the day to the home page of the circulation module', 'Textarea') });
11:02 astyles },
11:02 astyles };```
11:02 astyles thanks
11:06 astyles ahh my SQL was bad, thanks anyway. sorted it out 8-)
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11:23 tcohen astyles, correct. That's not the right syntax...
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11:27 magnuse if a subfield is given a default value in a framework, the default will be applied if you fetch a new record from z39.50. but if you have an existing record and do "Replace record via Z39.50/SRU" it should not be applied, right?
11:28 tcohen shouldn't default values only apply for new records?
11:31 magnuse yeah, that is what i am thinking too
11:31 magnuse but i have a library that expects otherwise :-)
11:31 cait joined #koha
11:32 magnuse but then you are replacing an old record with a new one, so it kind of makes sense to apply the defaults to the new one too, i guess
11:38 tcohen you want some sort of templates to be applied
11:38 tcohen that's how I'd call the feature
11:39 tcohen maybe one more option to the overlay tool
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11:59 ashimema haha.. read my mind
11:59 ashimema it felt like a job for the overlay options
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13:02 huginn News from kohagit: Bug 30822: Clarify that BatchCommitItems is a private function <[…]ee51f9b7778217a9f>
13:02 huginn News from kohagit: Bug 30822: Make BatchCommitRecords update the index in one request <[…]28abc6fd1bada4b8c>
13:15 alohabot 🎁 🦄 Koha 'master' packages pushed to 'koha-staging' repo  ðŸªðŸ«ðŸ¥œ
13:18 tcohen Joubu: around=?
13:18 tcohen ashimema: ?
13:18 ashimema hi
13:18 tcohen Yesterday koha-push updatebz told me there was a new sponsor
13:19 tcohen is there a proper way to review that info with the tool?
13:19 ashimema ooh.. coolios
13:19 tcohen or I just need to find the commit myself for adding it
13:19 ashimema I had a feeling you might ask me that.. I can't for the life of me remember.
13:19 tcohen because I forgot to take actions about that
13:19 ashimema I think Joubu refined the process a bit after I initially worked on it.
13:21 liliputech hello, I have errors when starting ktd, nothing will work unless i install JSON::Validator manually, and it needs force option. is that a blocker for the release?
13:22 tcohen liliputech: are you using the right image?
13:22 Joubu tcohen: iirc it's a yml file in release_tools
13:23 tcohen right, I've just updated some info there
13:23 Joubu etc/sponsor_map.yaml
13:23 tcohen but I missed to take notes on a new sponsor
13:23 tcohen between pushes
13:23 tcohen is there a way to pass a range and get the new contributors on the range?
13:24 Joubu I never needed that, and obviously forgot to add sponsors
13:24 tcohen also, koha-update-contributors changes the committer number in contributors.yaml
13:25 Joubu I think the release notes script will regenerate them anyway
13:25 tuxayo Meeting in 35 min!
13:25 tcohen and I see it restores my '123' number
13:25 Joubu do... not... modify it
13:25 Joubu :D
13:25 Joubu please :)
13:26 liliputech tcohen: yup, export KOHA_IMAGE=21.11
13:26 Joubu tcohen:
13:26 Joubu tcohen: "Update history.txt and contributors", it's the (only) way to generate the list correctly
13:26 Joubu but ignore that, you will do it when releasing
13:27 Joubu there is a release script that is modifying the history or about files, don't commit and ignore the changes
13:28 ashimema glad we raised Joubu.. that's where our processes differed a lot.. I maintained it whilst I went.. he did it as one big commit at the end for release.. I think
13:28 tuxayo liliputech: to to comment KOHA_IMAGE in your .env
13:29 tuxayo For me it took precedence over the ENV var and started the wrong image and thus the wrong deps.
13:29 liliputech tuxayo: hum
13:29 tuxayo *try to comment
13:29 tuxayo (.env in your ktd directory)
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13:39 liliputech tuxayo: worked, thx!
13:43 koha-jenkins Project Koha_Master_D9 build #2017: SUCCESS in 39 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]a_Master_D9/2017/
13:48 koha-jenkins Project Koha_Master_D11_My8 build #878: SUCCESS in 45 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]ster_D11_My8/878/
13:49 lukeg joined #koha
13:59 ashimema time for a quick grab of a cuppa before meeting
13:59 oleonard Oh yeah, meeting!
14:00 tuxayo oh already! :o
14:01 oleonard rmaints? qa_team?
14:01 oleonard rmaints?
14:01 wahanui rmaints are lukeg, liliputech and tuxayo
14:01 tuxayo rmaints?
14:01 wahanui rmaints are lukeg, liliputech and tuxayo
14:01 oleonard ha
14:01 tuxayo qa_team?
14:01 wahanui qa_team is cait, marcelr, khall, kidclamp, kohaputti, lukeg, aleisha, fridolin, ashimema, tuxayo, nugged, petrova and Joubu
14:01 thd irc logs website still redirecting to bugs
14:02 tcohen 1hi all
14:02 tuxayo hum no for me
14:02 oleonard Not for me thd:
14:02 tuxayo but you thd are the 2nd people to which is happened lately
14:02 tuxayo #startmeeting Development IRC meeting 22 June 2022
14:02 huginn Meeting started Wed Jun 22 14:02:34 2022 UTC.  The chair is tuxayo. Information about MeetBot at
14:02 huginn Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
14:02 Topic for #koha is now  (Meeting topic: Development IRC meeting 22 June 2022)
14:02 huginn The meeting name has been set to 'development_irc_meeting_22_june_2022'
14:02 tuxayo #link https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]ting_22_June_2022 Today's agenda
14:03 tuxayo #topic Introductions
14:03 Topic for #koha is now Introductions (Meeting topic: Development IRC meeting 22 June 2022)
14:03 nugged o/
14:03 ashimema #info Martin Renvoize, PTFS Europe, UK
14:03 oleonard #info Owen Leonard, Athens County Public Libraries, Ohio, USA
14:03 liliputech #info Arthur Suzuki, BibLibre, France
14:03 tcohen #info Tomás Cohen Arazi, Theke Solutions, Argentina
14:03 nugged #info Andrii Nugged, National Library of Finland, Helsinki, FI
14:03 thd #info Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
14:04 tuxayo #info Victor Grousset, Tuxayo VZW, France
14:04 m23 joined #koha
14:04 kidclamp #info Nick Clemens, ByWater Solutions
14:06 ashimema shall we move on?
14:06 ashimema unlikely to get davidnind right.. he put something on the agenda but it's poor timing for him
14:07 tcohen yes
14:07 tuxayo #topic Announcements
14:07 Topic for #koha is now Announcements (Meeting topic: Development IRC meeting 22 June 2022)
14:07 tuxayo Anything to announce that doesn't fit better the other topics?
14:07 koha-jenkins Project Koha_Master_U22 build #101: SUCCESS in 1 hr 5 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]a_Master_U22/101/
14:08 cait1 #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany
14:08 tuxayo #topic  Update from the Release Manager (22.05)
14:08 Topic for #koha is now Update from the Release Manager (22.05) (Meeting topic: Development IRC meeting 22 June 2022)
14:08 tuxayo tcohen: 🎙️
14:09 tcohen hi
14:10 tcohen We have passed string freeze for the stable releases, and several bugfixes have been pushed for 22.05
14:10 tcohen I will start integrating enhancements and new features soon
14:10 tcohen will try to not touch sensible areas that have outstanding bugs
14:10 tcohen on the first weeks
14:11 ashimema long live the new rm
14:11 tcohen Devs should looks at the roadmap and add the things they want to work on
14:12 tcohen I'm open to chat/video call with people willing to engage team work
14:12 lukeg #info Lucas Gass, ByWater Solutions
14:12 tcohen if required
14:12 cait1 tcohen++
14:12 liliputech tcohen++
14:13 ashimema tcohen++
14:14 tuxayo Anything else tcohen ?
14:15 tcohen I would like to mention the new 'ktd' command in KTD
14:15 nugged wow
14:15 tcohen will send an email about it
14:15 tcohen would like testers to try it before we tweak the docs
14:16 nugged tcohen+=3; from all our FI team (I can represent, yes)
14:16 tcohen[…]cker/-/issues/300
14:16 tcohen it is already merged and can be used
14:17 tuxayo tcohen++
14:17 cait1 what does ktd do?
14:17 tuxayo #info Testers needed for new koha-testing-docker management script. See[…]cker/-/issues/300
14:18 tcohen cait1: it replaces the aliases
14:18 tcohen or aliases could be rewritten in terms of it
14:18 tcohen the issue describes a usability problem we have for daily stuffs
14:20 tuxayo When using various images (for es versions for example) one had to manually pick the right docker-compose.yml files to update the images.
14:20 koha-jenkins Project Koha_Master_U20 build #446: UNSTABLE in 36 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]a_Master_U20/446/
14:20 cait1 just please write easy to read docs :)
14:20 cait1 I'll read those then
14:21 tcohen the README will get hughly simplified
14:21 tuxayo ++
14:21 cait1 +1
14:21 cait1 don't let me hold up things
14:21 cait1 move on?
14:21 tuxayo If there is something else, we can come back later
14:21 tuxayo #topic  Updates from the Release Maintainers
14:21 Topic for #koha is now Updates from the Release Maintainers (Meeting topic: Development IRC meeting 22 June 2022)
14:21 tuxayo rmaints?
14:21 wahanui rmaints are lukeg, liliputech and tuxayo
14:22 liliputech as of the release maintenance of 21.11, I'm almost ready to release the 21.11.07, just missing access to community wordpress and download site to push to.
14:22 tuxayo 1sts commits pushed so I have the rights on the branch and will be able to release on friday
14:25 liliputech i didn't pick bug30733 yet because it changes a lot the templates and i didn't feel very secure to add it this close to the release (lots of templates changes), but I'll work on it for 21.11.08 (be nice with translators).
14:25 tuxayo I need to investigate some some failures on Ubuntu 16.04 that I inherited otherwise, that's all
14:25 tuxayo liliputech: you need to contact gmcharlt rangi or Liz Rea according to https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]
14:25 tuxayo for download
14:25 cait1 bug 30733
14:25 huginn Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=30733 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, victor, Pushed to stable , Simplify translatable strings
14:25 liliputech sent an email to liz just minutes ago :)
14:25 cait1 i think I wouldn't push that one
14:25 ashimema is it actualyl worthwhile backporting 30733 any further.. ?
14:26 ashimema ha.. great minds
14:26 cait1 it creates a lot of work for translators
14:26 tuxayo ashimema totally not
14:26 cait1 and the later the version the more unlikley people keep up
14:26 tuxayo It's a mess ^^
14:26 liliputech if it's not i can manage not to work on it ;)
14:26 ashimema I don't think we should.. it would do the oposite of what it tries to do.. get translators to re-translate a lot
14:26 tuxayo 30733 was only for 22.05
14:26 cait1 yep, I think it's good there
14:26 liliputech ok, then i will resolve-fix that one :) thx!
14:26 ashimema it's great for the case where they've not already translated much.. but that your points in the cycle it should be left out.
14:26 ashimema coolios
14:26 cait1 but it took me a few hours to go through
14:27 tuxayo For earlier versions it would be bad for translators to have so much work so late in the life cycle
14:27 tuxayo cait++
14:27 * liliputech applause
14:27 ashimema brill
14:27 cait1 so we all agree, less work for liliputech :)
14:27 liliputech \o/
14:28 tuxayo liliputech: for other patches, if it meets the backport criteria in the RMaint doc but it conflicts, just let a message that if someone needs it they should provide a backport.
14:29 tuxayo liliputech: I think you said you had issues with bug 30717 so just write that in the ticket
14:29 huginn Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=30717 major, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart+koha, Pushed to master , Dates displayed in ISO format when editing items
14:29 tuxayo moving on?
14:29 ashimema ++
14:29 tcohen +1
14:29 liliputech tuxayo: when it's small conflicts, i tend to fix them, but yes, sometime i just cannot guess what is the "proper" way to fix, then I would ask for help :)
14:29 tuxayo #topic Updates from the QA Team
14:29 Topic for #koha is now Updates from the QA Team (Meeting topic: Development IRC meeting 22 June 2022)
14:30 tuxayo qa_team?
14:30 wahanui i heard qa_team was cait, marcelr, khall, kidclamp, kohaputti, lukeg, aleisha, fridolin, ashimema, tuxayo, nugged, petrova and Joubu
14:30 * ashimema is a little behind this month.. lots of meetings..
14:30 tuxayo > small conflicts, i tend to fix them, but yes, sometime i just cannot guess what is the "proper" way to fix, then I would ask for help :)
14:30 tuxayo That's the way, ask for help and then forget about it, just don't miss your bugzilla notification in case someone steps up
14:31 ashimema * 65 submissions in the queue, 24 of them bugs
14:31 cait1 yep, PLEASE QA!
14:31 koha-jenkins Project Koha_Master_D11_MDB_Latest build #967: SUCCESS in 43 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]1_MDB_Latest/967/
14:31 ashimema be nice to get that first number back down under 50.. and we should strive to keep the bugs number lower
14:31 cait1 I highlighted bad bugs in the Monday email, there is still quite a few
14:31 ashimema I think I'm locked out of a number of the bugs..
14:32 cait1 new ones, not the old ones....
14:32 cait1 also some bad bugs in Needs Signoff to grab for everyone and help us processing them
14:33 ashimema bug 29325 in particular would be good to get some eyes on.
14:33 huginn Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=29325 critical, P5 - low, ---, nick, Signed Off , error 'Already in a transaction'
14:33 cait1 yes, please!
14:34 cait1 and please also check the security project - they don't show up on dashboards - they will be visible in the saved lists and have permission/are logged in
14:34 ashimema also bug 30889 (or help moving the alternative Joubu suggested forward.. that one's on my list)
14:34 cait1 all QA team members have access to anything security by default
14:34 huginn Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=30889 major, P5 - low, ---, martin.renvoize, Signed Off , Background jobs lead to wrong/missing info in logs
14:35 tuxayo Not QA specifically but signoffs: I'm launching SO sessions with french speaking librarians (and will do in english if that works well) Does anyone have contacts with Koha users in Africa?
14:35 tuxayo Because most french speakers are actually there and it would be a good way to strengthen the librarian community.
14:35 ashimema Great initiative tuxayo
14:37 cait1 tuxayo++
14:37 cait1 maybe you could ask rangi
14:38 tuxayo #info anyone who have contacts of Koha users in french speaking Africa contact victor AT tuxayo DoT net so we can make patch testing session with librarians
14:38 tuxayo cait1: good idea
14:38 tuxayo #topic Status of roadmap projects
14:38 Topic for #koha is now Status of roadmap projects (Meeting topic: Development IRC meeting 22 June 2022)
14:38 tuxayo #info
14:39 thd I have not yet added wiki db migration and update to the new roadmap.
14:39 tcohen please do thd
14:40 thd I updated https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=23073
14:40 huginn Bug 23073: normal, P2, ---, td-koha-bugs, NEW , needs updating to a later version
14:40 tcohen do you have help from other community members?
14:40 tcohen I know some volunteered to help in past meetings
14:41 ashimema lots of us waiting and wanting to help
14:41 thd Yes, mtj is working on automated validation that the data migrated without errors was actually migrated without errors and not dropped somewhere.
14:41 cait1 I'll try to have a look at the testing site tomorrow
14:41 tcohen do we have a timeframe?
14:41 cait1 but maybe others could help too? we had discussed this earlier on IRC this morning
14:42 thd git://​ate-mwiki-db-and-upgrade-test.git is now up.
14:42 cait1 thd++ mtj++
14:43 thd That may be a message of the sort one sees for several days after reinstallation while some processes run gradually.
14:43 thd oops
14:43 koha-jenkins Yippee, build fixed!
14:43 koha-jenkins Project Koha_Master build #2070: FIXED in 1 hr 9 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]Koha_Master/2070/
14:43 wahanui Congratulations!
14:44 thd Reinstalled test instance of the Koha Wiki using Postgres at .
14:44 thd Koha test wiki migrated to MySQL at .
14:44 thd Koha MySQL test wiki upgraded to MediaWiki 1.35 LTS at .
14:45 thd Be mindful that various work will take those down and regenerate or slow them down at times.
14:45 tcohen thd: have you pondered a dockerized setup?
14:45 thd Those test instances have been mostly up for over a year.
14:45 tcohen we have a big server that is only serving koha-api-docs right now
14:45 tcohen and I can arrange you access to it
14:46 thd I have never learned enough of docker to actually use it for anything.
14:47 tcohen ok, but if we managed to set a running MediaWiki instance there
14:47 cait1 I think we shoudl not change the process too much now
14:47 tcohen it would be a matter of copying the files and loading the DB, right?
14:47 cait1 let's finish it and then move to docker?
14:47 ashimema +1
14:48 ashimema did you bring across user acounts into your test?
14:48 tcohen agreed
14:48 thd It is somewhat more than copying the files and loading the DB.
14:48 tcohen sorry for the noise
14:48 cait1 ashimema: i coudl log in
14:48 ashimema ok
14:48 thd I brought over everything.
14:48 cait1 so let's say mtj declares the migration is good
14:49 cait1 and we don't find anything too troublesome
14:49 tuxayo thd: looks great, what is missing?
14:49 thd There is no mail server running on my VPS so you cannot change your password but everything works.
14:49 cait1 do we define a 'cut off' date then and can we set the wiki to read only whiel we move?
14:49 thd Automated testing would be nice.
14:50 thd mtj said that he was working on automated testing since we discussed what was needed last meeting.
14:50 tuxayo Testing what?
14:50 wahanui i guess Testing is important :)
14:51 cait1 yes, wahanui
14:51 wahanui yes is something different :)
14:51 thd Testing that the migration from Postgres to MySQL did not drop anything consequential other than cached values or indexes.
14:52 tuxayo XD
14:52 thd Nothing appears to be different.
14:52 tuxayo > Testing that the migration from Postgres to MySQL did not drop anything consequential other than cached values or indexes.
14:52 tuxayo Ah I see so to avoid subtle issues
14:53 thd There is an unpleasant warning when reloading the database from Postgres.
14:53 thd Yet my investigation finds no actual problem.
14:54 tuxayo Considering all looks great don't hesitate to drop the automated check if it turns out to be too hard. IHMO
14:54 ashimema +1
14:54 ashimema done with some minor bugs we didn't spot and can fix later is better than not done at all
14:55 cait1 I am looking forward to clean up categories some
14:55 ashimema it's been ongoing since early 2019 from memory
14:55 thd Yes, the pandemic has wrecked my schedule.
14:55 cait1 the new(?) editor for categories seems to work well (tested earlier)
14:56 tuxayo moving on?
14:56 ashimema was about to say that
14:56 thd I have a small fraction of the time I had before the pandemic.
14:56 tuxayo Thanks for the great news about the wiki thd++
14:56 tuxayo #topic Actions from the last meeting
14:56 Topic for #koha is now Actions from the last meeting (Meeting topic: Development IRC meeting 22 June 2022)
14:56 tuxayo « tuxayo add requesting access for ssh access for in Initial_setup of rmaint doc »
14:56 tuxayo done
14:56 tuxayo « davidnind to create bug to summarise discussions and next steps for LTS version of Koha »
14:56 ashimema lol.. we missed the whole of the existing roadmap stuff
14:57 ashimema no worries
14:57 tuxayo existing roadmap stuff?
14:57 tuxayo Ok I'll back to that in the general part
14:57 tuxayo david created bug 31008
14:57 huginn Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=31008 new feature, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, NEW , Long Term Support (LTS) version of Koha
14:57 ashimema no worries.. it can wait for next time
14:57 bag joined #koha
14:58 cait1 I haven't read the bug yet
14:58 cait1 but the idea was to label 21.11 LTS
14:58 koha-jenkins Project Koha_Master_D10 build #693: SUCCESS in 38 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]a_Master_D10/693/
14:58 cait1 with a promise to support it for... 2.5 years I think?
14:58 cait1 Paul raised a question on the ML but not sure if ti's an issue
14:58 m23 joined #koha
14:59 cait1 I think someone running LTS Koha might also be more likely to go LTS on the OS?
14:59 cait1 I don't think too many issues shoudl be expected there in terms of dependency issues?
15:00 tuxayo Looks okay when I see for oldoldstable since 2 years
15:00 tuxayo I never had issues to switch a big depence
15:00 reiveune bye
15:01 tuxayo *dependence
15:01 cait1 yes, I think we should just go with it
15:01 reiveune left #koha
15:01 cait1 the "test" wth 19.11 didn't bring up anything like it
15:01 tuxayo right!
15:01 ashimema yowsers.. is it not like 3am where you are davidnind
15:01 tuxayo yowsers?
15:02 cait1 5 am i think
15:02 davidnind[m] Apologies for only doing the bug/email yesterday...
15:02 ashimema it will heavily rely on volunteers from an already small pool supporting it
15:02 tuxayo davidnind++
15:02 cait1 thx for doing it davidnind++
15:02 davidnind[m] 3am 😄
15:02 ashimema how do we pick which bersions become LTS
15:02 tuxayo thanks for the summary ^^
15:02 * ashimema goes quiet as he's not read the details for ages and can't remember
15:03 cait1 ah... 10 the other way
15:03 cait1 ashimema: what we discussed last time was using oldstable
15:03 ashimema we can't always use 'oldstable'
15:03 cait1 2 years... jump to current oldstable
15:03 cait1 no not always
15:03 ashimema ok
15:03 cait1 there will be gaps of course
15:04 ashimema so once every two years we drop one LTS and replace it with whatever oldstable currently is
15:04 ashimema I see
15:04 cait1 taht was the idea discussed
15:04 ashimema we'd certainly need to publish that clearly..
15:04 cait1 we are in the process :)
15:04 ashimema and make sure the RM overseeing that particular release when it first comes out is very much aware
15:05 cait1 hm why?
15:05 ashimema I think it needs up front commitment at development time.. for it to be a really good LTS it likely needs a 6 month polish before release
15:05 cait1 we get about 6 maint releases in
15:05 tuxayo By the time it because oldstable it should be polished
15:05 ashimema because LTS is always meant to be much more stable and reliable.. from day one
15:05 cait1 that was the idea yes
15:06 cait1 that's why we wanted to pick .6
15:06 ashimema in general an LTS release is LTS announced as LTS at release time
15:06 tuxayo > much more stable and reliable.. from day one
15:06 tuxayo If it not advertised as LTS on day one then we don't need that
15:06 cait1 I don't think that's doable to be honest
15:06 cait1 it will be the .6 release when it' announced
15:07 cait1 or the .7 ... might be off by a month not sure
15:07 ashimema OK.. well.. if there are people wanting to take it  on.. fine with me.
15:07 ashimema I would say we're not doing LTS.. we're doing a random Extended support
15:07 cait1 I just think with manpower we have a super careful release is probably not on the map atm... people want new things etc, I understand the argument, but trying to find some middle ground
15:07 ashimema but hey.. that's just semantics
15:07 cait1 we coudl also call it extended support
15:07 cait1 but it won't be random
15:08 cait1 goal is to put this into a schedule
15:08 tuxayo It's not convenient for people to have to upgrade from the LTS-1 to the new LTS a few months after their install but having a .00 labelled LTS would give worse results.
15:09 cait1 if we make it predictable, that will give people the option
15:09 tuxayo wait, it's not and issue
15:10 * tcohen needs to leave to feed the kids
15:10 tuxayo Because when the LTS is oldstable and oldoldstable, it's maintained by the usual RMaint
15:10 tuxayo So the real LTS-1 is still maintained
15:11 tuxayo So there is not the issue to have to do a major upgrade a few months after installing an LTS
15:11 cait1 we might need to do a graphic
15:11 cait1 my head hurts
15:11 cait1 but I think extended support is a realyl great idea
15:12 cait1 we do have some difficulty keeping up with the current schedule
15:12 tuxayo extended support is a good term also.
15:12 cait1 yes, happy witht hat
15:12 tuxayo > keeping up with the current schedule
15:12 tuxayo What do you mean?
15:13 tuxayo Great, that confirms the need for an extended support/LTS version
15:13 ashimema so LTS gets 18month support
15:13 tuxayo #info consider naming extended support instead of LTS
15:13 ashimema as it only become LTS after 6 months of release
15:13 cait1 the idea was 2 years to 2.5 actually
15:13 koha-jenkins Project Koha_Master_D12 build #174: STILL UNSTABLE in 1 hr 5 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]a_Master_D12/174/
15:13 ashimema right?
15:13 tuxayo > 18month support
15:13 tuxayo That's the normal thing.
15:14 cait1 I will try to draw it
15:14 ashimema so 2 years would mean maintaining it for 2.5 years right
15:14 cait1 for the 21.11 example
15:14 ashimema because it's only LTS after the first 6 months of maint
15:14 cait1 yeah you coudl phrase it like that
15:14 cait1 i think
15:15 tuxayo > it's only LTS after the first 6 months of maint
15:15 tuxayo It's actually LTS only after 18 months of RMaint, that when the LTS RMaint take over
15:15 ashimema so by the end of LTS support someone would be running a feature stable software written 2.5 years before
15:15 ashimema ok.. I can sorta understand theat..
15:15 koha-jenkins Yippee, build fixed!
15:15 koha-jenkins Project Koha_Master_U20 build #447: FIXED in 43 min: https://jenkins.koha-community[…]a_Master_U20/447/
15:15 wahanui Congratulations!
15:15 ashimema and they need to upgrade every 2 years
15:15 ashimema nah
15:15 ashimema it's LTS the moment it's deemed to be the LTS we're going to support
15:16 tuxayo #action cait try to draw how extended support/LTS would work
15:16 cait1 maybe calling it extended support we could call it that from day one?
15:16 cait1 heh
15:16 cait1 thx
15:16 ashimema if it's only LTS when they maint takes it on then it's actually only 6 months or whatever
15:16 cait1 let's postpone and think it over?
15:16 tuxayo ashimema: the LTS RMaint add more than 6 months
15:16 cait1 i think another 2 weeks is not going to kill it
15:17 * ashimema would still have prefered to see effort go into stabalising code earlier, more CI and creating a rolling release
15:17 liliputech joined #koha
15:17 ashimema lets move on
15:17 tuxayo > call it that from day one?
15:17 tuxayo Wouldn't it be a less good experience if people needing an extended support install a .00 ?
15:18 tuxayo > ashimema would still have prefered to see effort go into stabalising code earlier, more CI and creating a rolling release
15:18 tuxayo You can throw brainpower here: https://wiki.koha-community.or[…]workflow_proposal
15:18 tuxayo Warning, it's draining ^^
15:19 tuxayo « davidnind request feedback for the above on the mailing list with next dev meeting (two weeks from now) as a deadline »
15:19 tuxayo done
15:19 tuxayo on koha-devel
15:19 tuxayo « liliputech discuss koha CI (docker image built + manuall build) hosting on gitlab instance provided by BibLibre's partner AFI. »
15:20 tuxayo #action liliputech discuss koha CI (docker image built + manuall build) hosting on gitlab instance provided by BibLibre's partner AFI.
15:21 tuxayo #topic General development discussion (trends, ideas, ...)
15:21 Topic for #koha is now General development discussion (trends, ideas, ...) (Meeting topic: Development IRC meeting 22 June 2022)
15:21 liliputech tuxayo: about this, people at AFI said it might be OK to host a mirror on our gitlab instance, I just got a warning about ressource use (do we have any estimation for CPU/memory use?)
15:21 tuxayo > host a mirror
15:21 tuxayo not needed IIUC
15:21 tuxayo It's about CI runners
15:22 tuxayo liliputech++ thanks for asking
15:22 liliputech i need more info about ressource usage to move on, and some clues about how to build a runner.
15:23 liliputech would it need people external to biblibre to have an account on our gitlab?
15:23 liliputech (like push access?)
15:23 ashimema I don't believe so
15:23 tuxayo My guess is that you can note to ask tcohen and mtj about ressources.
15:23 ashimema I'm confused.. not sure who asked for what
15:24 ashimema My understanding is we're struggling for CI resource for some of the bigger builds basically.. so it's s docker runner
15:24 ashimema the code is hosted fine where it is
15:24 tuxayo Yes, code is fine
15:25 * ashimema needs to disappear soon.. kids duties
15:25 liliputech ok. I will ask tcohen. we've build a runner for other use (other than koha) not so long ago, we could do it once more, but I guess there are tokens or other stuff we need.
15:25 Joubu it's a 5min job
15:26 tuxayo One solution would be to host a portainer node on AFI/BibLibre infrastructure and then we can put any docker container there. tcohen manages the portainer thing.
15:26 tuxayo moving on?
15:27 tuxayo «New status for development work flow and dashboard - 'Needs documenting' (see bug 30998) »
15:27 huginn Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=30998 enhancement, P1 - high, ---, david, ASSIGNED , [DOCS] Managing documentation tasks - simplify processes and integrate more with the development process
15:28 ashimema Basically.. have a look at the proposal on the bug.. we're already trialling some of it..
15:29 cait1 sorry, I have to leave, have a nice 'day' everyone :)
15:29 ashimema there's a new status on bugzilla, 'Needs documenting' akin to 'Needs signoff' that sits after 'Pushed to X' and before 'Resolved'.. that status is being used to populate a todo list and status list on the dashboard so far
15:29 cait1 left #koha
15:29 tuxayo Great, I see RMaints are mentioned so homework is to read the ticket
15:29 tuxayo rmaints?
15:29 wahanui rmaints are lukeg, liliputech and tuxayo
15:29 tuxayo ↑
15:30 tuxayo (Great was about things being trialled)
15:30 ashimema it's to give docs people a clear list of bugs to work through... and to help spread the load keeping on top of it... so rather than the docs manager having to maintain out of band lists and look at every bug.. docs team can work through the list and get 'points' be submitting docs or making the decision that a particular bug doesn't need any docs changes and so can just be marked resolved
15:31 ashimema for Rmains the main change is 'use "Needs documenting" where you would have used 'Resolved Fixed' in the past.
15:31 tuxayo ok
15:31 ashimema lucasg is already on board with it and the majority of these will hit him first
15:32 liliputech most of the thing I'll put on my branch are already documented isn't it?
15:32 ashimema what I'm still not sure about is the docs team side bits.. whether we should track submission + pushed states somehow in bz side.. to build more lists on the dashboard
15:32 liliputech (mine being 21.11)
15:32 ashimema well.. they 'should be' liliputech 😜
15:33 liliputech hum ^^
15:33 ashimema keep doing what your doing.. if a bug hits you that you push.. use 'Pushed to X'.. if a bug hits you that you decide not to backport use 'Needs documenting'.. then the docs team will come along and make the final step to 'Resolved fixed'..
15:33 tuxayo liliputech: IIUC So it's when not backporting due to issues or not important enough, we use "Needs documenting" instead of "Resolved Fixed"
15:34 liliputech I also work on another software, documentation is part of the workflow for proposing an enhancement. that means, no dev can reach code-base without documentation.
15:34 ashimema it puts it on them to check if there's a new syspref or change of behavour that aught to be documented 😜
15:34 ashimema yeah.. I tried that
15:34 tuxayo > no dev can reach code-base without documentation
15:34 tuxayo Not the case in Koha
15:34 ashimema didn't get much support
15:35 ashimema devs don't like documenting and we already have a really long lead time for code to get in with our SO + QA queues..
15:35 ashimema adding in 'Failed QA, no docs' was seen to put people off more..
15:35 ashimema which is a shame
15:35 liliputech but, whose at the best place for documenting than the dev who provides the code?
15:35 tuxayo Indeed
15:35 ashimema true
15:35 liliputech s/whose/who is/
15:35 liliputech .
15:36 ashimema feel free to propose that alternative
15:36 liliputech in the bz?
15:36 ashimema I have a hard enough time persuading people to upstream code 😜
15:36 ashimema yeah.. it's as good a place
15:38 davidnind[m] this would at least make it a more visible part of the process - pushed to x, then needs documenting
15:39 tuxayo maybe we could have a status "Failed QA, missing documentation" which the documentation team could also unblock for the oldest ones.
15:39 tuxayo I can add that to the ticket also.
15:39 ashimema our process also means that often the feature changes allot between initial submission and pqa.. when that's the case you really need to document at the end else it's just another thing to constantly be adapting throughout the process.. but if you submit it at the end and the code isn't pushed once it's PQA it adds another burden to the dev to also keep rebasing the code and likely another QA run when the rebases aren't trivial..
15:40 ashimema we've often seen code pushed that's pretty functionally broken because of a lag between PQA and actual Push
15:40 tuxayo > and the code isn't pushed once it's PQA it adds another burden to the dev to also keep rebasing the code and likely another QA run when the rebases aren't trivial..
15:40 tuxayo right >_<
15:40 liliputech added my 2 cents on the bz
15:40 ashimema I did propose a requirement for docs submissions alongside dev submissions back when I was RM 😜
15:40 davidnind[m] I don't think we would want to be a blocker for changes getting into Koha
15:40 tuxayo liliputech++
15:41 ashimema so I do like the idea liliputech.. just explaining why my proposal failed when it did back then
15:41 ashimema wow.. me being RM feels like a long time ago now
15:41 tuxayo moving on?
15:41 ashimema yup
15:41 tuxayo ashimema: you had something I skipped earlier
15:41 tuxayo I can note for next meeting
15:41 davidnind[m] ashimema++
15:42 liliputech hu. ashimema it fails because there is too much lag between submission and push :(
15:42 tuxayo it was about roadmap
15:42 liliputech but I get the point
15:42 ashimema Mmm
15:42 liliputech and everyone's doing one's best already
15:43 ashimema Koha does move fast really.. but as a Dev it can feel glacial at times
15:43 tuxayo liliputech: adding documentation step will ensure that there is a lag between PQA and push. Which might be too bad.
15:43 liliputech humm. maybe doc could be done after pqa?
15:44 tuxayo ashimema:  Â«we missed the whole of the existing roadmap stuff»
15:44 liliputech (still needed for a push to master)
15:44 ashimema Lol.. that's basically what this proposal does
15:44 ashimema Hmm.
15:44 liliputech \o/
15:45 tuxayo No because liliputech propose that it's still the dev that does it IIUC
15:45 ashimema No, the lag between pqa and push is part of the problem
15:45 ashimema A dev can do docs certainly.. and I often try to
15:45 ashimema Often during Dev as a test plan as such
15:45 ashimema But their also rather different skill sets
15:45 liliputech never worked on new features in koha...
15:46 tuxayo There is no strong obligation for the dev to do so since the code is merged. But some will do it and if it drags for too long the documentation team take over.
15:46 ashimema Sphinx etc
15:46 ashimema It's not just new features.. every change submitted might affect docs..
15:46 liliputech but if i had to : its not so more job to write the doc, than to explain your code to someone who's going to write the doc for u.
15:46 ashimema There's are often subtle but meaningful changes of behaviour that may need clarifying in docs when bugfixes are pushed
15:47 liliputech true
15:47 ashimema New sysprefs introduced etc
15:48 tuxayo Anything else on any topic? (we might note them for next meeting)
15:49 davidnind[m] please add any comments you have to the bug or email me, or discuss on IRC
15:49 thd Yes ...
15:50 tuxayo go on thd 🎙️
15:51 thd If anyone has deep insight into a pgrestore warning WARNING: ftell mismatch with expected position .
15:52 thd please let me know.  That is the only concerning thing in my logs but silent errors could be possible.
15:52 davidnind[m] #info Add any comments and feedback on the "Needs documenting" status and work flow to bug 30998
15:52 huginn Bug https://bugs.koha-community.or[…]_bug.cgi?id=30998 enhancement, P1 - high, ---, david, ASSIGNED , [DOCS] Managing documentation tasks - simplify processes and integrate more with the development process
15:52 tuxayo #info contact thd if you can help with the wiki upgrade which hits this warning: "WARNING: ftell mismatch with expected position"
15:54 tuxayo #topic Set time of next meeting
15:54 Topic for #koha is now Set time of next meeting (Meeting topic: Development IRC meeting 22 June 2022)
15:54 thd That is before any upgrade and merely on restoring the Postgres dump to Postgres .
15:55 tuxayo #info Next meeting: 6 July 2022, 21 UTC
15:55 tuxayo That was what was discussed on last Oceania + Americas meeting
15:55 tuxayo For the next Americas + Europe meeting, same hour?
15:56 tuxayo The 20th of July it would be
15:56 tuxayo Let's say that for now. reach out if a change is needed
15:56 tuxayo #endmeeting
15:56 Topic for #koha is now Welcome to #koha this channel is for discussion of the Koha project and software
15:56 huginn Meeting ended Wed Jun 22 15:56:36 2022 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)
15:56 huginn Minutes:        https://meetings.koha-communit[…]-06-22-14.02.html
15:56 huginn Minutes (text): https://meetings.koha-communit[…]2-06-22-14.02.txt
15:56 huginn Log:            https://meetings.koha-communit[…]22-14.02.log.html
15:57 tuxayo thanks all for the attendance
15:57 davidnind[m] tuxayo++
15:57 ashimema tuxayo++
15:57 ashimema davidnind++
15:57 ashimema liliputech++
15:57 ashimema community++
15:57 nugged tuxayo++
15:58 liliputech ashimema++ tuxayo++ davidnind[m]++ nugged++
15:58 liliputech koha++
15:58 liliputech see u tomorrow :)
16:28 wajasu nice seeing the crew at work
16:33 tuxayo wajasu: hi :) Nice to see new names here.
16:33 tuxayo Do you work at a library?
16:56 oleonard tuxayo: wajasu isn't new, just long missing :)
16:56 tuxayo oh :D
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17:52 wajasu yes. long time away.
17:54 wajasu recovering and old koha server that died.  got the mysql db backup.
17:55 wajasu seeing if I can dump bilbios, authorities and load into latest debian11/koha
17:56 wajasu the box ran in a closet with no admin for 12 years. 30,000 volumes in the library.
18:06 tuxayo wajasu: hope it will work well :)
18:51 tcohen tuxayo++
19:05 oleonard wajasu: 12 years is amazing
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