IRC log for #koha, 2015-12-08

All times shown according to UTC.

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06:41 * magnuse waves
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07:42 reiveune hello
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07:54 alex_a bonjour
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08:12 gaetan_B hello
08:12 wahanui hola, gaetan_B
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08:36 magnuse @wunder boo
08:36 huginn` magnuse: The current temperature in Bodo, Norway is 3.0°C (9:20 AM CET on December 08, 2015). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 70%. Dew Point: -2.0°C. Windchill: 2.0°C. Pressure: 30.09 in 1019 hPa (Falling).
08:37 magnuse @wunder thessaloniki
08:37 huginn` magnuse: The current temperature in Thessaloniki, Greece is 9.0°C (10:20 AM EET on December 08, 2015). Conditions: Partly Cloudy. Humidity: 76%. Dew Point: 5.0°C. Pressure: 30.54 in 1034 hPa (Steady).
08:38 liw @wunder torrevieja
08:38 huginn` liw: The current temperature in Acequion, Torrevieja, Spain is 13.4°C (9:38 AM CET on December 08, 2015). Conditions: Partly Cloudy. Humidity: 87%. Dew Point: 11.0°C. Pressure: 30.48 in 1032 hPa (Steady).
08:39 ashimema @wunder stevenage, uk
08:39 huginn` ashimema: The current temperature in Stevenage, England, Stevenage, United Kingdom is 12.4°C (8:39 AM GMT on December 08, 2015). Conditions: Rain. Humidity: 89%. Dew Point: 11.0°C. Pressure: 30.06 in 1018 hPa (Steady).
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09:14 Joubu hi
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09:35 * cait waves
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09:39 * ashimema ponders
09:42 * magnuse becomes curious
09:44 cait ?
09:44 cait ok, now i am curious too
09:44 ashimema lol..
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09:44 ashimema was only adding to the /me's
09:44 * cait waves at Viktor
09:45 * Viktor waves back at cait
09:45 ashimema I happen to be pondering deployment options for one of my mojolicious apps..
09:45 ashimema moving from development to deployment is proving an interesting challenge to work out ;)
09:45 ashimema TIMTOWTDI is sometimes a bloody nightmare ;)
09:47 * ashimema enjoyed meeting lots of ptfs-europe customers last week..
09:48 * ashimema is slightly disappointed not to see any (that a recognise) loitering in here yet :(
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09:59 ashimema hehe.. indeed liw
10:00 ashimema I actually attempting to avoid being relying on the package system for this project..
10:00 ashimema I'm relying heavily on Mojolicious and a few other CPAN modules which are fast moving and I don't really want the overhead of having to maintain lots of my own .debs
10:01 ashimema so currently battling with how to do it.. the non-deb way
10:04 liw I'd have my CD build a .deb of the CPAN modules, unless the modules turn out to be a lot of work to package. Usually CPAN modules are nearly automatable for Debian packaging and the manual work is at the initial packaging. And for packages that don't need to be uploaded to Debian, it's even easier.
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10:04 liw but like I said, I'm a little bit opinionated about this
10:17 * magnuse goes for a walk
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10:39 drojf hi #koha
11:33 Joubu Any datetime/timezone exports around?
11:34 Joubu I am trying to introduce DateTime::Tiny (cc ashimema) to Koha::DateUtils
11:34 ashimema coolios :)
11:34 Joubu And I am wondering if it could cause any side effects
11:35 Joubu the thing is that C4::Context->tz returns the "local" tz
11:35 ashimema that's a 'big' question..
11:35 ashimema I have no idea
11:35 Joubu what happens if a server hosts several Koha installs used in different tz?
11:35 drojf "local" server or "local" client?
11:35 Joubu drojf: local server
11:36 drojf hm. have a tz-per-instance-setting and do a conversion from local?
11:37 ashimema perhaps some background is in order..
11:37 ashimema We do 'allot' of DateTime instantiation, which is expensive (especially in loops)
11:38 Joubu[…]new%28_name_=%3E_$tz_name_%29
11:38 Joubu We are using $context->{tz} = DateTime::TimeZone->new(name => 'local')
11:38 Joubu from the doc: "If the "name" parameter is "local", then the module attempts to determine the local time zone for the system."
11:38 ashimema So the idea is to use DateTime::Tiny, which negates a bunch of the cost of instantiating full DateTime objects.. But to negate these costs it a) doesn't care about locale, and b) doesn't do the datetime maths.. instead it upgrades to DateTime objects when it needs to for that.
11:39 ashimema that right isn't it joubu..
11:39 Joubu That's the idea
11:39 Joubu but I am not sure about the consequence
11:39 Joubu because of the *bip* timezones
11:39 ashimema so.. we don't really get any win if we add locale conversions everywhere... as we just end up getting the overhead of DateTime back.
11:40 cait bip?
11:40 wahanui i heard bip was pretty useful too :-)
11:40 cait oh
11:40 ashimema So.. I 'think' we need to only convert timezones right at the end where we actually need them
11:40 ashimema how we do that.. i dunno.
11:40 cait i think it's currently not possible to run instances in multple timezones
11:40 cait at least to my knowledge
11:40 cait so maybe changing that to a setting woudl be even a welcome change?
11:41 Joubu It seems that it's not possible to run an instance for a different timezone
11:41 Joubu that could be problematic actually
11:41 ashimema I'm not qualified to answer really.. I don't know enough of how our dates are handled throughout the app
11:41 Joubu and it will be hard to reverse the change if we decide to switch to "no timezone" (i.e. local)
11:41 cait it seems pretty unflexible quite now - so nto sure what the problem woudl be:)
11:42 ashimema time is hard ;)
11:42 Joubu it could be quite easy to make it works with the actual code
11:42 cait i thougth right now - servertime = kohatime tz - that not right?
11:42 Joubu I'd say just change C4::Context->tz to return C4::Context->pref("my_specific_tz")
11:43 ashimema OK.. new question.. have we actually profiled to find where DateTime's are cuasing us issues?
11:43 Joubu cait: yes that's how it works currently
11:43 ashimema performance wise that is ;)
11:44 drojf not that i know of, but if we have, i'd be interested to see it :)
11:44 Joubu a very useful benchmaks I have just did: for 1..1000 instanciate DateTime->now or DateTime::Tiny->now
11:44 Joubu it's 0.1s vs 0.7s
11:44 Joubu but we don't instanciate 1000 objects :)
11:45 Joubu well, it's 10.000 actually, not 1.000
11:45 drojf how many do we instantiate? ;)
11:45 cait sorry, lunch! bbl
11:45 Joubu I hope much more less than that :)
11:45 drojf which would mean the difference is probably not relevant enough to change a lot in the code? :P
11:46 Joubu it's 700% :
11:46 Joubu :)
11:46 ashimema that's why I wan't to see a profile of koha's use of datetime..
11:46 ashimema I think some wires are getting crossed here..
11:47 ashimema DateTime -> DateTime::Tiny is a big win.. IF your doing allot of 'needless' instantiation
11:47 ashimema so.. it's more about our algorithms than about just making a switch.
11:47 ashimema for example..
11:48 ashimema if there are cases where we do: while ( $result->next ) { $date = DateTime->new };
11:48 ashimema and.. we're not doing a date comparison inside the loop..
11:48 ashimema and that loop has 1000 iterations..
11:49 ashimema then the DateTime cost is very noticeable (api response may be along the lines of 7seconds vs 1second) which starts to add up fast.
11:49 Joubu the one I know is Koha::Calendar->is_holiday
11:49 Joubu because of ->exception_holidays
11:50 Joubu foreach row in special_holidays DB table, instanciate a DT object
11:50 ashimema do we know any averages of how many holidays are generally in that table..
11:51 ashimema ball park wise.. I'd say anything upto around 100 is likely acceptable... unless we're double looping or something silly like that?
11:51 Joubu It's a "known" issue, so people should purge this table (there is a script to do that)
11:51 ashimema known issue..
11:52 Joubu yes, by me
11:52 Joubu (:D)
11:52 ashimema I suppose the table can easily grow with time..
11:52 drojf brb
11:52 ashimema in this case.. can the db query be used to good measure to reduce the scope of the loop..
11:53 ashimema i.e. datetime in future (negating the old hang around dates?
11:53 * ashimema really wants to sit down and profile the *bip* out of koha ;)
11:53 Joubu bug 15240 is impacted by is_holiday
11:53 huginn` Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=15240 critical, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Performance issue running
11:54 Joubu ashimema: that's not my original question :) I don't want to fix a specific method
11:54 ashimema that script is horrid.. it runs for over 36 hours on one of our systems
11:55 ashimema I'ts in my 'to profile' pile''
11:55 ashimema though jsut reading the code I can imediately spot some coding that scares me.
11:55 ashimema I think there's atl elast a 7 level nested set of loops in there..
11:55 ashimema and db data isn't being prefetched either
11:55 ashimema so it can trigger in a hundreds of thausands of db hits for a large db.
11:56 ashimema 1+n*n*n*n or somthing like that..
11:56 Joubu So the question is : should we use DT::Tiny and improve the execution time (don't know the ratio will could win) and remove the ability that a server could run several Koha instances from differents TZ or keep this possible feature (which is not implemented yet)?
12:02 * ashimema reading the code to answer that
12:06 ashimema hmm..
12:07 ashimema So.. do we instantiate that list of datetime object every time we call is_holiday?
12:07 ashimema feels ripe for caching to me..
12:07 ashimema and I 'think' caching may be the easier route to goal rather than introducing DateTime::Tiny
12:08 ashimema also.. I can't entirely see where the ->contains method is..
12:08 ashimema is that part of DateTime::Set
12:08 ashimema yup
12:08 Joubu yes
12:10 ashimema I have doubts that DateTime::Tiny and DateTime::Set would play nicely together..
12:10 ashimema but tha'ts an untested hypophesis
12:11 ashimema In this case.. I would.. cache the DateTime::Set so we're not instantiating it every time.
12:11 ashimema that will win on the instantiation problem at least.
12:11 ashimema though I believe ->contains does a DateTime comparison which is still expensive.. but nothing in comparison to the instantiation in the first place..
12:12 ashimema it really needs profiling..
12:13 ashimema run the overdues script with NYTProf.. i've learnt the hard way countless times that just reading the code usually yields me expsnding loads of time fixing a problem that never existed and is infact somewhere else entirely.
12:14 ashimema as runs in one process in one hit.. caching would be super simple I think.. If I were in mojo i'd throw it in a Mojo::Cache (i.e just thwack it into memory, and let it go out of scope once the script run completes)
12:14 ashimema profile it :)
12:14 ashimema and stick the results up somewhere :)
12:14 ashimema I was intending on doing it some time soon myself.. but if you can beat me to it.. all the better..
12:15 ashimema we have a customer for whome it currently take 36 hours for this script to run.. so it's close to my heart ;)
12:15 Joubu we are instanciating 470 DT objects for a checkout
12:15 ashimema are we comparing those dates to anything?
12:16 ashimema I bet we are.. and if we are then dateTime::Tiny will be upgrading to DateTime anyways I think..
12:16 ashimema unless I'm remembering the module wrong
12:17 ashimema (of course.. to compare we could stringify both ends and compare strings instead of DateTime objects)
12:19 ashimema 470 'per checkout'..
12:19 ashimema that's crazy.. what on earth are we doing with them all
12:19 ashimema is that the is_holiday stuff..
12:19 ashimema **** me
12:24 drojf we really need to get all the weird loop stuff fixed. koha would probably be 10x faster. i have seen that in search and will try to look deeper into it after i finished some other stuff. but 470 DT objects for one checkout sounds like that too
12:25 Joubu note that I have 420 rows in special_holidays, it can be related
12:26 drojf if that has to be done _per checkout_, it should be cached
12:27 Joubu there are cached using Koha::Cache already
12:29 drojf i know too little about DT, but could we have one "all holiday stuff" master DT object for that? or is it only possible per single date?
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12:35 ashimema we do drojf
12:35 ashimema it's a DateTime::Set
12:35 drojf ah ok
12:36 ashimema but basically that's just an array of DateTime objects with a tiny bit of sugar around it ;)
12:36 drojf heh
12:36 ashimema do we really cache that stuff already?
12:36 ashimema if so, then those 470 instantiations shouldn't be happening every time
12:37 drojf yes that sounds odd
12:37 ashimema or are we serializing the objects as part of the caching process, then instantiating them again on every load from the cache
12:37 drojf maybe we cache the stage before we need to do the instantiation
12:37 drojf yes
12:37 ashimema that would account for it.. so the cache would only be aleviating DB load..
12:38 drojf that sounds similar to what we do with the framework structure in search ;)
12:38 * ashimema goes blind whilst reading the crazy looping involved in some of koha's code
12:38 drojf yes. this
12:38 wahanui yes. this is very serious business ;)
12:39 Joubu If I get it correctly... special_holidays is a DateTime::Set and is not cached (and use ->contains)
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12:39 ashimema K..
12:39 Joubu but single_holidays does
12:39 Joubu ha no, one is calling the other
12:40 ashimema hmm
12:40 ashimema maybe my branch is out of date..
12:40 Joubu Ok, the DT::Set is not cached, but the DT objects to create it are cached
12:40 ashimema I can just see a commment about Koha::Cache
12:40 ashimema but no code actually using it.
12:41 Joubu but 14522
12:41 Joubu bug 14522
12:41 huginn` Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=14522 normal, P5 - low, ---, mtj, Pushed to Master , Use Koha::Cache for accessing single_holidays()
12:41 gaetan_B is saying "server error" when i search for a string, is anything wrong with it ?
12:42 drojf "nytprof showed a time reduction of the single_holidays() sub - from 61.7s to 587ms" goodness
12:43 Joubu "only" 57 DT objects are generated with an empty special_holidays table
12:43 drojf gaetan_B: i see that from time to time and it usually works a little later
12:43 ashimema yup
12:43 ashimema that makes loads of sense ;)
12:43 gaetan_B ok i'll try again in a few minutes then thanks drojf
12:44 Joubu ok so let's forget this DateTime change for the moment
12:44 ashimema we got rid of CHI didn't we :(
12:44 ashimema I like CHI's api
12:45 ashimema You gonna cache exception_holidays for the quick win then Joubu?
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12:46 ashimema ack..
12:46 Joubu ashimema: I don't think it will be useful, this table should not contain a lot of entries
12:46 ashimema why are those two method doing exectly the same thing.. in a totaly different way!
12:47 oleonard Hi #koha
12:48 ashimema Koha's internal api is crock full of ****
12:48 drojf ashimema: because we love diversity
12:48 magnuse ashimema: it's called redundancy. if one of the methods fail , we can fall back on the other one ;-)
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12:50 tcohen hi
12:50 magnuse ¡hola tcohen!
12:51 tcohen hola Magnuse!
12:52 ashimema well.. in this case we can't fall back..
12:52 ashimema I say they do exactly the same thing..
12:52 ashimema they do.. but each one is it's own shortcut to doing the same thing but with a different list of dates..
12:53 drojf hi tcohen
12:53 drojf hei magnuse
12:53 ashimema so.. you have exception_holidats and single_holdays.. they both work on a list of dates.. and the main purpose of them is so you can check if today appears in the list..
12:53 tcohen hola drojf
12:53 ashimema yet th api to do exactly that is completely different between them.
12:53 tcohen dates api?
12:53 drojf brb
12:53 ashimema yup
12:54 ashimema Koha::Calender..
12:54 ashimema I'm venting about exception_holidays vs single_holdays
12:58 Joubu ashimema: it's because single_holidays is caching all holidays, and we cache the string ymd instead of the DT objects
12:59 Joubu to avoid to full the RAM is suppose :)
13:01 ashimema I just don't see a reason for the api's to have diverged.. I'd convert the exception_holidays to use the same internal api..
13:01 ashimema anywho..
13:01 ashimema I should really get back to work
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13:04 magnuse the patch on bug 13029 uses C4::Context->config('installdir'), but I can't seem to remember seeing that before and grep does not turn up anything for "installdir". am i missing something?
13:04 huginn` Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=13029 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, julian.maurice, Needs Signoff , Allow to pass additional parameters to SMS::Send drivers
13:05 Joubu It has been introduced by the Solr implementation
13:05 Joubu then removed
13:09 magnuse ah, thanks Joubu
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13:17 tcohen hi Joubu
13:17 Joubu hi tcohen
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13:31 bouzid_ hello
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13:36 oleonard Hi bouzid_
13:37 bouzid hi oleonard
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13:44 bouzid Hi oleanard
13:46 nengard hola all
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13:47 nengard Koha 3.22 manual is done :) Meaning all new features should be documented ... not that I won't ever touch it again :)
13:47 tcohen nengard++
13:47 nengard now time to tackle the help files
13:48 nengard also if you see something missing let me know
13:48 magnuse nengard++
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13:50 bouzid Hi all
13:52 magnuse nengard: ConsiderOnSiteCheckoutsAsNormalCheckouts has <a id="idm140439830938288"></a> - looks like some generated id. <a id="ConsiderOnSiteCheckoutsAsNormalCheckouts"></a> would be more in line with other headings
13:53 nengard strange
13:53 nengard okay checking now
13:54 nengard oh! magnuse it's because I forgot to give it an id ;)
13:54 nengard thanks
13:54 bouzid I work on ElasticSearch
13:54 bouzid is what someone can give me information about the project progress
13:55 tcohen bouzid: you're volunteering to help?
13:56 bouzid yes
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13:57 nengard bouzid++
13:57 nengard bouzid the ticket for elastic is here:[…]_bug.cgi?id=12478
13:57 huginn` Bug 12478: enhancement, P5 - low, ---, robin, NEW , Elasticsearch support for Koha
13:57 nengard it should have the info you need - but if not you can ask
13:57 nengard I know that bag knows alot but he's out of the country
13:58 nengard and eythian might be here - or might not ...
13:58 tcohen bouzid++
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13:59 bouzid thanks tcohen
13:59 tcohen bouzid: you should contact rangi (Chris Cormack) about this, as he said he will pick where Robin left (at Catalyst)
14:00 tcohen
14:02 bouzid ok thanks for informations, i will contact chris
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14:31 Joubu bouzid: how would you like to help?
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14:39 bouzid Joubu : I do not know, fix bugs or programming patches as needed
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14:39 mveron Hi #koha
14:39 mveron Hi #koha
14:40 Joubu bouzid: As I understood, the development will be in standby for the next month.
14:41 Joubu bouzid: you can start with reading the different comments on the bug report, installing ES, reading the code, trying to understsand how it is implemented, etc.
14:41 Joubu You can also try to search and fix bugs :)
14:42 mveron I need a hint: After seting <use_zebra_facets> to 1 and doing a full re-index I get "Error: Can't call method "raw" on an undefined value at /usr/share/kohaclone/C4/ line 798."
14:42 mveron (in OPAC and Staff catalog search)
14:42 Joubu mveron: are you sure it's releated to the use_zebra_facets flag?
14:43 mveron Joubu: If I turn it off search is OK
14:43 Joubu ha yes
14:43 bouzid Joubu : thanks for informations
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14:46 Joubu mveron: nothing else before?
14:48 mveron Joubu: I changed the config file for log4perl and for the upload folder
14:48 tcohen mveron: I never saw that
14:48 Joubu mveron: does it explodes for any search or a specific one?
14:48 Joubu mveron: I meant: nothing else in the logs before this error?
14:48 mveron Joubu: For any search
14:48 mveron And no, nothing in the logs
14:49 tcohen mveron: maybe the indexing went wrong?
14:50 mveron tcohen: I will try again with indexing.
14:50 mveron BTW it's on the dev server, no emergency...
14:51 tcohen maybe we should've put that line inside an eval anyway
14:51 tcohen because it is possible that there's no facet for the requested elementSet
14:51 mveron tcohen: It tested with an eval on that line, I then had simply no facetsa t all.
14:51 mveron at all
14:51 tcohen so… this looks like a behaviour change in Zoom
14:53 cait Joubu: do you remember by chance yur patch about shipment date?
14:53 cait i thought there was something new about it being editable in 3.22 .. but can't find it
14:53 cait @later tell wizzyrea - we need to update the start page for 3.22 :)
14:53 huginn` cait: The operation succeeded.
14:53 cait @later tell wizzyrea ...
14:53 huginn` cait: The operation succeeded.
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14:55 Joubu cait: bug 11062?
14:55 huginn` Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=11062 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, ASSIGNED , Invoice's shipment/shipping cost should  be included PRE-gst tax (as an option)
14:55 cait hm something about the date
14:56 Joubu cait: bug 8417
14:56 huginn` Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=8417 normal, P5 - low, ---, jonathan.druart, Pushed to Master , date acquired is shipping date
14:56 Joubu Bug 8417: Make the order receive date editable
14:57 cait !
14:57 cait thx
14:57 cait i loked with shipping date
14:57 cait i don't understand how i missed it
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14:58 cait Joubu++
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15:43 barton oh search gurus: I have a library who's reporting that sort_by=title_az and sort_by=pubdate_asc stop working at about offset=1000. I don't see any bugs filed for this. I'm not exactly sure where to start troubleshooting this.
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15:52 nengard barton
15:52 nengard no one will search that far
15:52 nengard that's what talljoy said
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15:53 oleonard nengard: Except the library who reported it? ;)
15:53 nengard LOL
15:53 nengard no patron will search that far
15:53 nengard hehe
15:53 nengard only use crazy librarians do
15:53 nengard only 'us' crazy librarians
15:53 nengard sorry
15:54 * nengard is part of us
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16:12 gaetan_B i'm still getting server errors on (small message at the bottom when searching)
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16:36 nengard can somoene tell me the status of[…]_bug.cgi?id=15111  - i was able to see it, but no longer am
16:36 huginn` Bug 15111: is not accessible.
16:36 nengard cait maybe
16:37 cait hm are you logged in with nicole@bywater...?
16:37 janPasi__ joined #koha
16:37 cait that's the address on the access list
16:39 nengard oh no - i'll change my log in
16:59 gaetan_B bye
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17:11 tcohen barton: i've just got a similar report!
17:16 barton tcohen: I just filed bug 15331
17:16 huginn` Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=15331 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, gmcharlt, NEW , Sort order breaks at offset=1000 (both OPAC and Intranet)
17:18 barton I think that we pull back the results from zebra in chunks of 1000, and only the first chunk is ordered correctly.
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17:23 tcohen sorry
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17:43 reiveune bye
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18:41 magnuse kia ora talljoy
18:49 talljoy hiya magnuse!
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19:08 oleonard Are there special tools for package installations for setting up cron jobs?
19:10 eythian No
19:11 oleonard Okey dokey
19:13 eythian Imo they all should be syspref controlled.
19:38 tcohen oleonard: vim, as far as I can tell
19:58 oleonard Bye #koha
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20:06 wizzyrea cait: should be fixed now
20:07 wizzyrea @later tell cait the website should be fixed now
20:07 huginn` wizzyrea: The operation succeeded.
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20:14 magnuse wizzyrea++
20:16 magnuse so when you have a list of different data like so:
20:16 magnuse age: 43
20:16 magnuse zip: 1234
20:17 magnuse what's the english word for age and zip?
20:18 magnuse labels?
20:18 wahanui labels are for our book acquisitions. So maybe, I need to work out how we are doing the Acquistions then.
20:20 wizzyrea I'd call that a label yes
20:20 wizzyrea but I suppose the context of the data is important
20:20 wizzyrea (is it json, or in a database, or displayed on a web page...)
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20:25 magnuse wizzyrea: displayed on a web page
20:25 magnuse i think i'll settle for labels
20:25 mtj magnuse:  field
20:26 magnuse oh, that's a good one too!
20:27 wizzyrea I thought the field was where you put the actual data.
20:27 mtj hmm, i think a 'field' might only be for input
20:27 mtj yeah, true ^
20:27 wizzyrea
20:28 wizzyrea that thing is a label :)
20:28 mtj agree :)
20:33 drojf is there a good doodle alternative i could put on my server?
20:33 wizzyrea doodle?
20:33 mtj hmm, not sure myself drojf
20:34 wizzyrea
20:34 mtj ..$peeps, any SIP users hit the bug 15305? (or not?)
20:34 huginn` Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=15305 normal, P5 - low, ---, koha-bugs, In Discussion , KOHA SIP2 checkout doesn't update of the item holding status
20:35 rangi not in production mtj
20:35 rangi it uses AddIssue
20:35 rangi the same as
20:36 rangi so the problem could only be caused if the date was passed in a format that caused the code that updates the items table to fail
20:36 rangi the issue row is created
20:36 * mtj cant find the irc scrollback of that issue
20:36 mtj thanks rangi ^
20:36 rangi its just the items.onloan is not updated
20:36 drojf wizzyrea: i found that too, do you know it?
20:37 wizzyrea I don't, but it's the only one that seems like a reasonable replacement?
20:37 mtj rangi: 'not in production' means you have found the bug in a dev/test koha.. no?
20:39 rangi nope
20:39 rangi havent recreated it anywhere yet
20:40 mtj yep, understood :)
20:41 mtj i hope to test bug this today
20:41 drojf to avoid doing slides i proposed organizing a hackfest. i am amazed by my procrastination skills.
20:41 mtj ..after have i coffee moar
20:46 tcohen en-NZ++
20:50 wizzyrea ?
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21:06 magnuse thanks wizzyrea and mtj, i went with label
21:06 tcohen joined #koha
21:15 magnuse have fun #koha!
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22:16 drojf do we have good examples for customized bootstrap OPACs?
22:17 dcook Probably some of the Catalyst ones
22:17 dcook And maybe cait might have some?
22:17 rangi i like
22:17 * dcook thinks both tend to do nice designs
22:18 cait ours are all a bit similar
22:18 cait but you can take a look sec
22:18 rangi  i like also
22:18 * dcook recalls cait having done an amazing one pre-bootstrap?
22:19 cait a list of our opacs
22:19 wizzyrea I like this one, the library did it
22:19 wizzyrea it's not super styled, but their header is good.
22:19 cait hm maybe the one for manuscripts? the links are somewhere at the bottom
22:19 rangi yeah, they did all that themselves, i think its one of the nicer public library ones
22:19 dcook cait: Yeah, I think it was the manuscript one
22:19 cait and thx wizzyrea :)
22:20 cait (updating the website) and in general :)
22:20 drojf great links, thanks everyone!
22:21 drojf the parliament one does not show much without an account i think
22:21 drojf or i have blockes something ;)
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22:21 rangi  maybe
22:21 cait hm
22:22 cait nengard shared some with me recently, i think i might have the link list on my cloud
22:22 cait sec
22:23 rangi we have a lot more, but they are all non public
22:23 wizzyrea ^
22:23 wizzyrea we basically have a design company inside our company.
22:26 drojf heh
22:26 cait i wish we had that :)
22:27 cait hm sorry, i htink the list is at work somewhere
22:28 cait or my owncloud is just being annoying
22:29 drojf no worries, thanks for looking. got a few good examples now :)
22:33 cait lol
22:33 cait no wi found it
22:33 cait ownclodu really was just annoying
22:34 cait drojf:
22:36 drojf wow thats a huge list. thanks!
22:37 cait some from catalyst too - result of my last survey on #koha
22:37 cait community++
22:53 * drojf heads home
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22:56 mtj ah bummer, im going to have to run the 3M-sipdev tools in wine
22:56 mtj before i fcking kill myself
22:57 * wizzyrea wonders what the difference between "create" and "add" is in the log viewer
22:58 mtj i guess they are the same action, just labeled differently
22:58 cait I'd suspect a similar thing
23:10 wizzyrea I think they're specific to the module you are looking at
23:10 wizzyrea it's still pretty confusing
23:13 cait agred
23:13 cait agreed
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23:31 mtj hum, i can't even seem to fake a SIP checkout, via the SC-emulator :/
23:31 rangi use telnet
23:31 rangi its much easier
23:32 wizzyrea yeah you can just grab the request out of the log and send it
23:32 wizzyrea a request*
23:32 mtj yeah, i have historically.. for simplier stuff
23:33 rangi i just have a page, and i edit the borrower cardnumber, and the barcode number
23:33 rangi and cut and paste
23:34 wizzyrea I am displeased with the documentation on
23:34 mtj i think i thought using the emulator would be more 'correct', with checksum and such
23:35 mtj but no
23:35 wizzyrea have you ever seen a 3M machine work with a koha using checksums? I don't think I have.
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23:35 wizzyrea iirc you turn that off when you work with Koha
23:35 wizzyrea but it's been ages
23:36 wizzyrea since I did that and I could have a bad memory
23:36 rangi i never seen a 3M machine work with anything
23:36 rangi with any reliability anyway
23:36 wizzyrea 3m's gonna need cream for that burn
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23:41 mtj herm..i think im making progress
23:46 cait wizzyrea: i think we fixed hte checksum
23:46 cait i remember something was wrong with it and umlauts and the coworker fixed it :)
23:46 wizzyrea Aha
23:46 cait and it got into Koha too - but I can't tell if all of them actually use it
23:46 rangi what an asshole
23:46 cait i think it was not 3M
23:46 wizzyrea ?
23:46 rangi paul a
23:47 wizzyrea omg
23:47 wizzyrea bullshit he doesn't snark.
23:47 cait ...
23:47 rangi toxic person, needs removing
23:47 wizzyrea every email is a snark
23:47 cait do i really want to read before goingto sleep?
23:47 wizzyrea yes.
23:47 wizzyrea nah
23:47 rangi no, dont it adds nothing
23:47 rangi his mails never do
23:48 wizzyrea oh I called him on his last 3.8 mail
23:48 wizzyrea and got back a diatribe about datapoints
23:48 wizzyrea and I'm like, idgaf, they're not using that version, they're not going to use that version, you're not contributing, please stop.
23:48 rangi yeah
23:48 wizzyrea I'm just working on how best to answer his mail
23:48 wizzyrea halfway inclined to go with what I just wrote, actually.
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23:49 rangi knowing about transistors is cool and all, but contributes zero
23:49 cait wizzyrea the brave :)
23:49 wizzyrea I won't. but it's tempting
23:49 rangi im old so im right
23:49 wizzyrea also transistors are pretty far removed in the pipeline from koha
23:49 rangi has never had any truck with me
23:49 wizzyrea :P
23:50 wizzyrea unless we're going to talk about running koha 3.8 on the dell models that had the exploding capacitors I don't think that expertise helps
23:50 wizzyrea idk how to deal with him he obviously thinks he's being valuable
23:50 rangi i dont know
23:51 rangi i think he's a mansplainer of the nth degree
23:51 wizzyrea now that is probably accurate
23:51 wizzyrea we shoudl be grateful he's not a troll AND a mansplainer?
23:51 wizzyrea he's certainly not harmless though.
23:51 rangi i think owen probably knows a bit more about the front end of koha than him
23:52 rangi but he's gonna mansplain with w3c is to him nonetheless
23:52 wizzyrea haha yeah, gl with that
23:53 dcook Oh man...
23:53 * dcook might avoid the listserv for a bit today
23:54 dcook My emails are just epic-length novels. Hopefully without any snark, trolling, or mansplaining.
23:54 janPasi__ joined #koha
23:59 drojf "perhaps even pedantism"
23:59 drojf lol

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