| Time |
S |
Nick |
Message |
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| 05:48 |
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indradg |
kia ora #koha |
| 06:23 |
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reiveune |
hello |
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| 07:00 |
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alex_a |
bonjour |
| 07:09 |
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| 08:06 |
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| 08:23 |
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| 08:26 |
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* magnuse |
waves |
| 08:33 |
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| 08:51 |
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| 08:51 |
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* nlegrand |
waves also |
| 08:52 |
|
* magnuse |
waves to nlegrand |
| 08:53 |
|
nlegrand |
I've heard Joubou saying we can't add multiple SQL statements in an atomic update. But after a look at updatedatabases.pl and Installer.pm, it's seems possible. Is it good practice to do so (1 atomic update -> 1 SQL statement) ? |
| 08:53 |
|
* nlegrand |
waves back at magnuse |
| 08:53 |
|
nlegrand |
magnuse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWNc8aU3SrI |
| 08:54 |
|
cait |
nlegrand: i'd just try it :) |
| 08:54 |
|
nlegrand |
cait: :) |
| 08:54 |
|
cait |
i haven't seen one with mulitple sql statements so far |
| 09:04 |
|
magnuse |
waving is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWNc8aU3SrI |
| 09:04 |
|
magnuse |
is it possible to get rid of the descriptions/notes tab in the opac (othen than through css/js)? |
| 09:06 |
|
magnuse |
guess not |
| 09:23 |
|
schnydszch |
hi magnuse that was a problem/use case for me many months ago. |
| 09:24 |
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| 09:31 |
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| 09:42 |
|
magnuse |
schnydszch: how did you solve it? css/js? |
| 09:43 |
|
schnydszch |
haha i just give up :P |
| 09:44 |
|
schnydszch |
err.. i just put details from notes/description in xslt |
| 10:06 |
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| 10:06 |
|
drojf |
hi #koha |
| 10:37 |
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| 11:33 |
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| 11:40 |
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| 11:41 |
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fridolin |
hie |
| 11:42 |
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| 12:19 |
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| 12:19 |
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| 12:20 |
|
DisneyDave |
If I wanted to get a list of all users who have checked out an item since 10/1/2014, is there an existing report I can run or do I need to write a custom SQL report? |
| 12:21 |
|
DisneyDave |
I did not see an existing report but you all are the experts. :) |
| 12:21 |
|
Viktor |
Filed an RFC for "History for MARC records" over at http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]_for_MARC_records. Will hopefully flesh it out a bit in the coming days. We hope to get some kind of POC up so people can point out what we are (very probably) doing wrong. |
| 12:23 |
|
Viktor |
kivilahtio_ : We plan to save not only what have been edited and when but also by who (or from what source) |
| 12:23 |
|
magnuse |
DisneyDave: it sounds kind of familiar... |
| 12:24 |
|
Viktor |
kivilahtio_ : I'll give a shout when we have something useful to look at. |
| 12:24 |
|
kivilahtio_ |
Viktor: thanks! |
| 12:25 |
|
magnuse |
DisneyDave: have a look at http://INTRANET/cgi-bin/koha/r[…]/borrowers_out.pl ? |
| 12:25 |
|
DisneyDave |
Magnuse: Thanks. Let me take a lok |
| 12:28 |
|
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| 12:28 |
|
tcohen |
morning! |
| 12:28 |
|
DisneyDave |
Magnuse:do you have the full URL or how I navigate to it |
| 12:28 |
|
DisneyDave |
Tcohen: GOOD Morning! |
| 12:29 |
|
tcohen |
=D |
| 12:29 |
|
magnuse |
DisneyDave: it's on the right hand side of the reports page |
| 12:29 |
|
magnuse |
under "inactive": "Patrons who haven't checked out" |
| 12:30 |
|
DisneyDave |
Magnuse: Thanks! |
| 12:30 |
|
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| 12:35 |
|
tcohen |
Joubu! |
| 12:36 |
|
magnuse |
tcohen! |
| 12:36 |
|
wahanui |
tcohen is obsessed with automated testing :) |
| 12:40 |
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| 12:40 |
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| 12:43 |
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| 12:54 |
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| 12:59 |
|
tcohen |
khall: aroud? |
| 12:59 |
|
khall |
what's up? |
| 12:59 |
|
tcohen |
confetti! |
| 12:59 |
|
wahanui |
well, confetti is https://31.media.tumblr.com/f5[…]1tt9lrzo6_250.gif |
| 13:00 |
|
tcohen |
happy birthday |
| 13:00 |
|
tcohen |
:-D |
| 13:00 |
|
tcohen |
confetti!" |
| 13:00 |
|
khall |
thanks! |
| 13:01 |
|
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| 13:07 |
|
magnuse |
yeah, happy birthday khall |
| 13:07 |
|
khall |
thanks magnuse! |
| 13:08 |
|
fridolin |
howww, happy birthday khall |
| 13:09 |
|
khall |
thanks! I'll have to figure out how old I am. I stopped keeping track a few years back ; ) |
| 13:14 |
|
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| 13:15 |
|
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| 13:25 |
|
fridolin |
tcohen: good morning |
| 13:26 |
|
fridolin |
FYI we have been working a lot on SIP server and it has show problems on database connection |
| 13:26 |
|
fridolin |
see Bug 14375 and Bug 14374 |
| 13:26 |
|
huginn |
Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]_bug.cgi?id=14375 major, P5 - low, ---, fridolyn.somers, Needs Signoff , DBIx::Connector should be stored in C4::Context instead of dbh |
| 13:26 |
|
huginn |
Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]_bug.cgi?id=14374 normal, P5 - low, ---, fridolyn.somers, Needs Signoff , dont use mysql_auto_reconnect with BDIx::Connector |
| 13:26 |
|
cait |
oh happy birthday khall! |
| 13:26 |
|
fridolin |
Joubu: cc ^ |
| 13:27 |
|
khall |
thanks cait! |
| 13:33 |
|
drojf |
happy birthday khall! |
| 13:33 |
|
khall |
thanks! |
| 13:56 |
|
schnydszch |
happy birthday khall! |
| 13:57 |
|
khall |
thanks! |
| 14:15 |
|
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| 14:16 |
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| 14:37 |
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| 14:53 |
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| 14:56 |
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| 15:05 |
|
reiveune |
bye |
| 15:05 |
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| 15:08 |
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| 15:24 |
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| 15:56 |
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| 16:02 |
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| 16:08 |
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| 16:17 |
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| 16:18 |
|
mtompset |
Greetings, #koha. |
| 16:18 |
|
mtompset |
@seen tcohen |
| 16:18 |
|
huginn |
mtompset: tcohen was last seen in #koha 3 hours, 18 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <tcohen> confetti!" |
| 16:23 |
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| 16:40 |
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at_irc_oftc_net joined #koha |
| 16:41 |
|
at_irc_oftc_net |
I'm adding a new record from "Z-resources" and want to add a new marc tag. But how? |
| 16:42 |
|
at_irc_oftc_net |
I want to add marc tag "952" but cannot find a icon to let me do it |
| 16:42 |
|
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| 16:43 |
|
at_irc_oftc_net |
Also, when I edit an item, how could I change its collection code? |
| 16:51 |
|
mtompset |
@seen khall |
| 16:51 |
|
huginn |
mtompset: khall was last seen in #koha 2 hours, 54 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <khall> thanks! |
| 16:51 |
|
mtompset |
Are you around, khall? |
| 16:51 |
|
khall |
indeed! |
| 16:51 |
|
mtompset |
Great! I have a question for you about t/db_dependent/Circulation.t |
| 16:52 |
|
khall |
sure! |
| 16:52 |
|
khall |
afk, brb |
| 16:52 |
|
mtompset |
You added at least one test in bug 11634 (commit 3b300146b2ca478472c5305abcc84ca0033b17ff) |
| 16:52 |
|
huginn |
Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]_bug.cgi?id=11634 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, kyle, Pushed to Master , Allow renewal of item with unfilled holds if other available items can fill those holds |
| 16:52 |
|
mtompset |
where you did a Koha::Database->new()->schema |
| 16:53 |
|
mtompset |
and another test with the same call. |
| 16:53 |
|
mtompset |
was there a reason for calling new()->schema like that? |
| 16:53 |
|
mtompset |
or is a single $schema = $database->schema(); at the top of the test usable? |
| 16:55 |
|
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| 16:57 |
|
mtompset |
Does my inquiry make sense? Because I'm trying to do the AutoCommit fix, and if you call Koha::Database->new()->schema, the autocommit isn't off. |
| 17:00 |
|
khall |
mtompset: you are correct, I should have reused the existing $schema variable |
| 17:01 |
|
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| 17:01 |
|
mtompset |
okay... just checking, to make sure there wasn't any other underlying reason. Actually, the existing $schema you put in later. ;) |
| 17:01 |
|
khall |
we should only ever need to grab the schema once per script/sub |
| 17:01 |
|
khall |
nope, I imagine I just didn't realize there was already a schema I could have re-used |
| 17:02 |
|
mtompset |
Okay, good... change those two lines, and I'll be happy with that fix. ... NEXT! :) |
| 17:06 |
|
edveal |
is anyone using self-registrion via the opac? I have a question for you… |
| 17:08 |
|
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| 17:22 |
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| 18:07 |
|
mtompset |
edveal-afk: What was your question about self-registration? I think I played with it a bit. :) |
| 18:22 |
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| 18:22 |
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| 18:29 |
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| 18:35 |
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| 18:48 |
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| 18:52 |
|
POCLD |
Hi. One of our branches suddenly stopped being able to print hold slips back in May. They can still print other slips, so I know the printing itself is ok. I had them try it in Firefox and Chrome, but neither work. When they click on 'Print slip, transfer and confirm' the message disappears, but that's it. Nothing prints, no printer dialog, nothing. Any ideas greatly appreciated. Thanks |
| 18:52 |
|
cait |
POCLD: dd you check the notice templates? |
| 18:52 |
|
cait |
do they have a RESERVESLIP template? |
| 18:53 |
|
cait |
is it assigned to the same module as the working ones? |
| 18:53 |
|
cait |
are you using any javascript for making the printing work more seamlessly? |
| 18:55 |
|
POCLD |
Wow, that was fast! Sadly I don't know the answer to any of those questions. I know it was working, and then 'just stopped'. I'm not aware that we are using any templates, how would I know if it's assigned to the same module? I'm not aware of any Javascript used in the printing. |
| 18:55 |
|
cait |
POCLD: ok, first let's check the standard things |
| 18:56 |
|
cait |
you want to go to tools > notices and slips |
| 18:56 |
|
cait |
where are you form POCLD? |
| 18:57 |
|
POCLD |
Yes, Pond Oreille County Library District, in WA. Part of the CIN group, using Koha through Bywater Solutions |
| 18:57 |
|
cait |
ah |
| 18:57 |
|
cait |
well once you are in tools, we are looking for the notice template with the Code RESERVESLIP |
| 18:58 |
|
cait |
as you have mulitple libraries, there might be several |
| 18:58 |
|
|
talljoy joined #koha |
| 18:58 |
|
cait |
for the different branches |
| 18:58 |
|
POCLD |
ok, I'm just remoting into the machine |
| 18:58 |
|
cait |
hi talljoy |
| 18:58 |
|
talljoy |
hiya cait! |
| 18:59 |
|
cait |
trying to figure out why a reserveslip wouldn't print for one library |
| 19:01 |
|
POCLD |
ok, getting there. It's a very slow pc |
| 19:03 |
|
cait |
you are in the staff interface, right? |
| 19:03 |
|
POCLD |
yes |
| 19:03 |
|
POCLD |
I'm trying to find the notices and slips part |
| 19:03 |
|
cait |
it's in tools |
| 19:03 |
|
cait |
first column left |
| 19:04 |
|
POCLD |
I only have 'Upload patron images' |
| 19:04 |
|
cait |
then you aremissing the permission to do that |
| 19:04 |
|
POCLD |
darn =( |
| 19:04 |
|
cait |
you will have to get into contact with someone else then |
| 19:05 |
|
POCLD |
unfortunatley I'm not the adminsitrator of Koha for the whole library network, only of the IT in this district |
| 19:05 |
|
cait |
yeah, but there is not much we can do when you can't access the pages :( |
| 19:05 |
|
|
Viktor joined #koha |
| 19:06 |
|
cait |
oyu will have to contact support/administration |
| 19:06 |
|
POCLD |
ok, well thank you for trying. =) |
| 19:06 |
|
cait |
sorry to not be able to help more |
| 19:12 |
|
pianohacker |
talljoy: fyi I can't talk because the zoom linux client is screwy |
| 19:12 |
|
talljoy |
i thought maybe you took a vow of silence |
| 19:13 |
|
huginn |
New commit(s) kohagit: Bug 13437: Replace javascript function parameter in builder <http://git.koha-community.org/[…]4f7b8c7e7ba588132> / Bug 13437: Conversion of marc21 cataloguing plugins to new style <http://git.koha-community.org/[…]ff46881d3b2896e49> / Bug 13437: Trivial edits on marc21 plugins before conversion <http://git.koha-commun |
| 19:14 |
|
|
wnickc joined #koha |
| 19:40 |
|
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Viktor joined #koha |
| 19:47 |
|
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bgkriegel joined #koha |
| 19:48 |
|
bgkriegel |
hello |
| 19:48 |
|
wahanui |
hey, bgkriegel |
| 19:49 |
|
cait |
hi bgkriegel :) |
| 19:49 |
|
bgkriegel |
hi cait :) |
| 19:49 |
|
nengard |
hiya bgkriegel |
| 19:49 |
|
nengard |
and cait |
| 19:49 |
|
nengard |
and everyone :) |
| 19:52 |
|
cait |
hi nengard |
| 19:54 |
|
bgkriegel |
hola nengard |
| 20:00 |
|
cait |
so meeting time i guess? |
| 20:00 |
|
indradg |
hi al |
| 20:01 |
|
indradg |
s/al/all |
| 20:01 |
|
pianohacker |
meeting? |
| 20:01 |
|
wahanui |
i guess meeting is in two days, i thought was tomorrow. plenty of time then |
| 20:01 |
|
cait |
irc general meeting? |
| 20:01 |
|
cait |
this one |
| 20:01 |
|
wahanui |
this one is cool as long as someone *wants* acknowledgement |
| 20:01 |
|
cait |
http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]ting_10_June_2015 |
| 20:02 |
|
|
geek_cl joined #koha |
| 20:02 |
|
indradg |
@wunder |
| 20:02 |
|
huginn |
indradg: (wunder <US zip code | US/Canada city, state | Foreign city, country>) -- Returns the approximate weather conditions for a given city. |
| 20:03 |
|
cait |
#startmeeting General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015 |
| 20:03 |
|
huginn |
Meeting started Wed Jun 10 20:03:00 2015 UTC. The chair is cait. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 20:03 |
|
huginn |
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. |
| 20:03 |
|
|
Topic for #koha is now (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015) |
| 20:03 |
|
huginn |
The meeting name has been set to 'general_irc_meeting___10_june_2015' |
| 20:03 |
|
pianohacker |
oh yar |
| 20:03 |
|
cait |
#topic introductions |
| 20:03 |
|
wahanui |
#info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient |
| 20:03 |
|
|
Topic for #koha is now introductions (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015) |
| 20:03 |
|
cait |
please introduce yourself with info, following the bot's example |
| 20:03 |
|
pianohacker |
#info Jesse Weaver, ByWater Solutions |
| 20:03 |
|
cait |
today's agenda can be found at |
| 20:03 |
|
cait |
#link http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]ting_10_June_2015 |
| 20:03 |
|
cait |
#info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany |
| 20:03 |
|
drojf |
#info Mirko Tietgen, Berlin, Germany |
| 20:03 |
|
indradg |
#info Indranil Das Gupta, L2C2 Technologies, IN |
| 20:03 |
|
nengard |
#info Nicole Engard, ByWater Solutions |
| 20:04 |
|
talljoy_DND |
#info Joy Nelson, ByWater Solutions |
| 20:04 |
|
JesseM |
#info Jesse Maseto, ByWater Solutions, USA |
| 20:05 |
|
cait |
doesn't look like a big crowd tonight |
| 20:05 |
|
cait |
let's move on |
| 20:05 |
|
cait |
#topic Announcements |
| 20:05 |
|
|
Topic for #koha is now Announcements (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015) |
| 20:05 |
|
cait |
any announcements? :) |
| 20:06 |
|
JesseM |
koha is awesome |
| 20:06 |
|
cait |
heh ok |
| 20:06 |
|
cait |
that counts |
| 20:06 |
|
cait |
i am moving on then |
| 20:06 |
|
wnickc |
#info Nick Clemens, VOKAL Consortium, USA |
| 20:06 |
|
cait |
bgkriegel: maybe annoucne your hackfest? |
| 20:07 |
|
cait |
well i have heard rumours about a koha hackfest in Buenos Aires sometime soon :) |
| 20:07 |
|
cait |
moving on |
| 20:08 |
|
cait |
#topic Updates on releases |
| 20:08 |
|
|
Topic for #koha is now Updates on releases (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015) |
| 20:08 |
|
bgkriegel |
#info Bernardo Gonzalez Kriegel |
| 20:08 |
|
bgkriegel |
sorry late |
| 20:08 |
|
cait |
np |
| 20:08 |
|
cait |
want to add something now? |
| 20:09 |
|
nengard |
Koha North American Users Group meeting will be in August |
| 20:09 |
|
bgkriegel |
well, hackfest on Buenos Aires 2-3 July |
| 20:09 |
|
NateC |
Nate from ByWater is here |
| 20:09 |
|
cait |
#info Koha North American Users Group meeting in August |
| 20:09 |
|
nengard |
http://www.mercyhurst.edu/acad[…]-group-conference |
| 20:09 |
|
cait |
#link http://www.mercyhurst.edu/acad[…]-group-conference |
| 20:09 |
|
edveal |
#info Ed Veal ByWater USA |
| 20:09 |
|
cait |
#info Hackfest in Buenos Aires, Argentina, 2-3 July |
| 20:10 |
|
cait |
so many fun Koha events! - is he teleporter ready finally? |
| 20:10 |
|
bgkriegel |
We'll have some people from Chile! |
| 20:10 |
|
rangi |
#info chris cormack, catalyst |
| 20:10 |
|
mtompset |
#info Mark Tompsett |
| 20:10 |
|
NateC |
#info Nate Curulla ByWater |
| 20:10 |
|
cait |
ok, rangi - you are rmaint - any update on releases? :) |
| 20:11 |
|
rangi |
steady as she goes, string freeze 15th, release on 22nd as normal |
| 20:11 |
|
cait |
#info releases are on track - string freeze on 15th, release on 22nd as normal |
| 20:11 |
|
nengard |
I'll need to get the help files updated probably before the next release (since I won't do it in the next 5 days) |
| 20:11 |
|
nengard |
but I do believe the manual is mainly done for 3.20 |
| 20:12 |
|
cait |
#info manual is mainly done for 3.20, help files still to be updated |
| 20:12 |
|
cait |
ok, anything else about releases before we move on? |
| 20:12 |
|
cait |
moving on |
| 20:12 |
|
cait |
#topic KohaCon15/16 |
| 20:12 |
|
|
Topic for #koha is now KohaCon15/16 (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015) |
| 20:12 |
|
rangi |
just that 14360 should get pushed soon, so it can go in all the releases |
| 20:13 |
|
cait |
that was the security one |
| 20:13 |
|
cait |
? |
| 20:13 |
|
|
khall joined #koha |
| 20:13 |
|
nengard |
bug 14360 |
| 20:13 |
|
huginn |
Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]_bug.cgi?id=14360 is not accessible. |
| 20:13 |
|
rangi |
yup |
| 20:13 |
|
rangi |
its passed qa |
| 20:14 |
|
cait |
#info bug 14360 to be included into the next releases (security fix) |
| 20:14 |
|
nengard |
is that the right bug number? |
| 20:14 |
|
cait |
yes |
| 20:14 |
|
cait |
it's not visible, because it's security |
| 20:14 |
|
nengard |
got it |
| 20:14 |
|
cait |
is someone from kohacon15 organizing team around tonight? |
| 20:15 |
|
rangi |
doesnt look like it |
| 20:15 |
|
NateC |
heh |
| 20:15 |
|
cait |
#bids for KohaCon16 are still open - please add your proposal if you are interested in hosting! |
| 20:16 |
|
cait |
can someoneget the link for me? |
| 20:16 |
|
mtompset |
YAY, Philippines! |
| 20:16 |
|
JesseM |
http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]ategory:KohaCon16 |
| 20:16 |
|
nengard |
http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]haCon16_Proposals |
| 20:16 |
|
nengard |
cait I don't see Germany there??!! |
| 20:16 |
|
cait |
heh |
| 20:16 |
|
JesseM |
:) |
| 20:16 |
|
cait |
#link http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]haCon16_Proposals |
| 20:17 |
|
rangi |
im just waiting to hear back from my bosses if they will cover the airfare to nigeria ill be going to kohacon15 |
| 20:17 |
|
* cait |
suggests harassing drojf :P |
| 20:17 |
|
nengard |
Philippines is great too |
| 20:17 |
|
cait |
ok, moving on |
| 20:18 |
|
cait |
#topic Next steps in Fundraising |
| 20:18 |
|
|
Topic for #koha is now Next steps in Fundraising (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015) |
| 20:18 |
|
cait |
Bob posted the TOR 2 days ago, they can be found here: |
| 20:18 |
|
cait |
#link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Fundraising |
| 20:18 |
|
cait |
#info TOR = Terms of Reference posted for discussion |
| 20:18 |
|
cait |
is someone from the fundraising committee here? |
| 20:19 |
|
NateC |
Brendan is not in today |
| 20:19 |
|
NateC |
moving into a new house |
| 20:20 |
|
cait |
I have agreed with Bob and Brendan that I will ask for people to comment on the mailing list or the wiki |
| 20:20 |
|
indradg |
+1 |
| 20:20 |
|
cait |
which i hereby do :) |
| 20:20 |
|
cait |
#action all please read the Terms of reference and ask questions on the mailing list or leave comments on the wiki |
| 20:21 |
|
cait |
anything? |
| 20:21 |
|
wahanui |
anything is possible with enough development work :) |
| 20:21 |
|
cait |
heh thx wahanui |
| 20:22 |
|
JesseM |
+1 |
| 20:22 |
|
cait |
ok, moving on |
| 20:22 |
|
cait |
#topic Misc |
| 20:22 |
|
|
Topic for #koha is now Misc (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015) |
| 20:23 |
|
nengard |
I love Koha :) |
| 20:23 |
|
cait |
indradg? |
| 20:23 |
|
wahanui |
indradg is the one who told me. |
| 20:23 |
|
indradg |
yeah.. i would like to discuss about the listed provider listing on the site |
| 20:24 |
|
* mtompset |
cringes in fear over the heat that will be generated. |
| 20:24 |
|
indradg |
being listed on it is being used by both vendors as well as users floating RFPs that the bidder must be a registered service provider or authorized service provider |
| 20:24 |
|
indradg |
this was added in May 2014 - http://koha-community.org/clar[…]upport-companies/ |
| 20:25 |
|
indradg |
as a clarification |
| 20:25 |
|
indradg |
in Feb 2015, gmcharlt posted this on his blog, based on an actual violation https://galencharlton.com/blog[…]ervice-providers/ |
| 20:25 |
|
indradg |
and if you are on facebook, you can see here https://www.facebook.com/photo[…]41&type=1&theater |
| 20:25 |
|
cait |
#link http://koha-community.org/clar[…]upport-companies/ |
| 20:26 |
|
indradg |
a major university in India asking for registered vendors |
| 20:26 |
|
cait |
#link https://galencharlton.com/blog[…]ervice-providers/ |
| 20:26 |
|
indradg |
for instance L2C2 does not qualify to bid |
| 20:26 |
|
indradg |
rangi has been aware of these concerns as is wizzyrea |
| 20:27 |
|
indradg |
since the listing is maintained between wizzyrea and gmcharlt as volunteers |
| 20:27 |
|
indradg |
cait: so here is the deal. as a community we can't perhaps go policing the providers. |
| 20:28 |
|
indradg |
but India is one of the places which is seeing a very fast uptake/adoption of Koha |
| 20:28 |
|
slef |
#info MJ Ray |
| 20:28 |
|
|
db joined #koha |
| 20:28 |
|
indradg |
and the listing is being, at the lack of a better word "weaponized" |
| 20:29 |
|
cait |
it's sad to hear it - I often point people to that page when they are looking for options |
| 20:29 |
|
cait |
indradg: what do you suggest? |
| 20:29 |
|
slef |
TOR is The Onion Router |
| 20:29 |
|
indradg |
so, what can we do? - remove the listing altogether? word it better (little scope for that), c) have the vendors include a boilerplate text |
| 20:29 |
|
|
Teejay joined #koha |
| 20:30 |
|
cait |
we could put a more obvious note in the top i think - but you can't force people to read |
| 20:30 |
|
mtompset |
And people will not read it. |
| 20:30 |
|
slef |
sadly we can't stop buyers putting in whatever stupid things they want in their qualification criteria |
| 20:31 |
|
slef |
it is up to their stakeholders to police them |
| 20:31 |
|
indradg |
slef: if there is no listing there is no scope for "registered" / "authorised" service providers |
| 20:31 |
|
slef |
indradg: and then everyone will post whatever lies they like on their own websites, like before |
| 20:31 |
|
rangi |
the amount of stress it causes wizzyrea, id vote removing it |
| 20:32 |
|
mtompset |
Which, by the way, we also could extend this problem into the Wiki. |
| 20:32 |
|
drojf |
how is the list "weaponized"? i don't understand what is the problem |
| 20:32 |
|
cait |
it's still a useful resource to others... not only a dark side to it |
| 20:32 |
|
nengard |
I'd love a way that didn't cause stress for wizzyrea - but keep it - lots of open source software projects have a page of support providers |
| 20:32 |
|
mtompset |
drojf: If a person isn't listed, they aren't considered an authorized provider. |
| 20:32 |
|
nengard |
it's a useful tool |
| 20:32 |
|
indradg |
drojf: I'm not listed. A tender says I must be a registered Koha support provider listed on koha-community.org |
| 20:32 |
|
cait |
i'd be sad to see it gone |
| 20:33 |
|
slef |
indradg: and also people will try to make their own astroturf sites beat koha-community.org in search results, like before |
| 20:33 |
|
cait |
indradg: why are you not listed? sorry, but kinda asking the obvious question i guess :) |
| 20:33 |
|
drojf |
indradg: maybe that is a stupid question for some reason, but why are you not listed? |
| 20:33 |
|
drojf |
hi5 cait |
| 20:33 |
|
indradg |
cait: laziness more than anything. I keep getting work via referrals |
| 20:33 |
|
rangi |
you should see all the offlist mail wizzyrea gets too |
| 20:33 |
|
slef |
remember what part of the point of the listing requirements was: to get lots of good library sites pointing to the community site as the recognised home of koha |
| 20:34 |
|
rangi |
i reckon someone else should volunteer to maintain it |
| 20:34 |
|
indradg |
India has the largest number of listed providers on that list |
| 20:34 |
|
rangi |
because its a bs job |
| 20:34 |
|
indradg |
and the lowest ratio in patches |
| 20:34 |
|
cait |
maybe we could share it - or an autorespond to ask on the list |
| 20:34 |
|
indradg |
that says its own story |
| 20:34 |
|
cait |
or both |
| 20:34 |
|
rangi |
so the people who want to keep it, one or a few of them should email wizzyrea to ask how they can help |
| 20:35 |
|
indradg |
rangi asked about ckoha source earlier in the day |
| 20:35 |
|
drojf |
ok. i understand the point of it being a bad job. i do not get the "i am too lazy to get listed, it has to go" part? |
| 20:35 |
|
slef |
I also think we should update the listing requirements |
| 20:35 |
|
rangi |
its not too lazy, its being on the site confers some kinda officialness which is crap |
| 20:36 |
|
slef |
How about, if you are caught claiming to be an authorized or registered listing provider, we boot you off the list for a year? |
| 20:36 |
|
indradg |
drojf: I never thought being listed was a criteria. |
| 20:36 |
|
rangi |
that is the problem, people think its actually a useful list, when all it is a list anyone can get on, that we don't check up on, and is marketed as being an official list |
| 20:36 |
|
slef |
s/listing// |
| 20:36 |
|
rangi |
slef: yeah policing .. that will make the job even better |
| 20:36 |
|
rangi |
bags not having anything to do with that |
| 20:37 |
|
rangi |
specially as a support provider |
| 20:37 |
|
indradg |
what is happening is that while applying for listing, the pages are clean and sweet... once listed, the text changes |
| 20:37 |
|
slef |
rangi: I know it's a sucky job. I've kept listings on various sites before. |
| 20:37 |
|
rangi |
im not opening myself up to lawsuits for taking action against other support providers |
| 20:37 |
|
|
Teejay joined #koha |
| 20:38 |
|
rangi |
ive dealt with enough lawyers through koha to last a lifetime |
| 20:38 |
|
slef |
rangi: indeed. When wizzyrea started doing the task, she wasn't working at a support provider. We probably need new people to do it. |
| 20:38 |
|
indradg |
heh rangi :) |
| 20:38 |
|
slef |
rangi: errr have I mentioned my peer certification idea here before? |
| 20:38 |
|
drojf |
the only thing i tell people is to ask the support companies they consider working with about their involvement in the community. |
| 20:38 |
|
cait |
i am not sure if working at a support provider has something to do with it |
| 20:38 |
|
nengard |
I think it sounds like we need a few things: #1 a new title (not official) #2 A description #3 someone else to maintain the list |
| 20:38 |
|
Teejay |
#info Tunji Adepeju Projektlink Konsult Limited Nigeria |
| 20:38 |
|
cait |
hi Teejay |
| 20:39 |
|
nengard |
Have a lit of providers - even unofficial - is useful to those who find the Koha page - then if theyr'e scared to do it alone they can find someone local easily |
| 20:39 |
|
slef |
oh yeah, back in 2011 |
| 20:39 |
|
rangi |
cait: it does, if we are going to take action, like remove listings |
| 20:39 |
|
cait |
maybe a first thing we shoudl do is ask wizzyrea if she wants to get rid of doing it |
| 20:39 |
|
rangi |
hi Teejay :) |
| 20:39 |
|
Teejay |
Hello |
| 20:39 |
|
wahanui |
bidet, Teejay |
| 20:39 |
|
rangi |
i know she does |
| 20:39 |
|
cait |
and then gather some ideas to vote decideon on the wiki for the next meeting? |
| 20:39 |
|
rangi |
i hear her swearing everytime the topic comes up |
| 20:39 |
|
cait |
with someone mailing the mailing list? |
| 20:40 |
|
slef |
http://irc.koha-community.org/[…]11-07-12#i_711907 |
| 20:40 |
|
rangi |
now Teejay is here, we could revisit kohacon15 maybe? |
| 20:40 |
|
mtompset |
Yes. |
| 20:40 |
|
cait |
yep in a moment |
| 20:40 |
|
cait |
would someone volunteer to email the mailing list asking for ideas and volunteers? |
| 20:41 |
|
slef |
cait: about the listings? |
| 20:41 |
|
cait |
yes |
| 20:41 |
|
Teejay |
Thank you |
| 20:41 |
|
mtompset |
http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]Support_Companies |
| 20:41 |
|
mtompset |
Same problem on the Wiki. |
| 20:42 |
|
Teejay |
Had some difficulty with the Internet |
| 20:42 |
|
slef |
anyone know when wizzyrea will be online next? I think we should talk to her first |
| 20:42 |
|
|
Viktor joined #koha |
| 20:42 |
|
cait |
maybe one idea: move it to the wiki |
| 20:42 |
|
NateC |
I think the listing is useful as proof that the community is broad and that libraries don't need to worry about vendor lockin |
| 20:42 |
|
cait |
not so nice sorting options then, but it will be 'less official' |
| 20:42 |
|
NateC |
so in one way or another, the availability of options should be showcased |
| 20:42 |
|
cait |
NateC++ yeah, that's how i feel about it too - but i see the problems |
| 20:43 |
|
NateC |
another option is to get rid of the list and have another list that highlights companies who are regular contributors to the community |
| 20:43 |
|
cait |
#info discussion about the presentation of the vendor list to be continued at next meeting |
| 20:44 |
|
NateC |
either via signoffs or testing or devs etc... |
| 20:44 |
|
NateC |
make it an incentive |
| 20:44 |
|
mtompset |
Oooo... I like that idea, NateC. |
| 20:44 |
|
NateC |
a karma page |
| 20:44 |
|
NateC |
or something like that |
| 20:44 |
|
slef |
NateC: that also removes the incentive for them to link back to koha-community.org, doesn't it? |
| 20:44 |
|
drojf |
that sounds reasonable to me. its what i tell people to ask providers about anyway |
| 20:44 |
|
NateC |
or "the community thanks the following vendors for their contributions" page |
| 20:44 |
|
cait |
we kid of have that with the dashboard - but i think also need a place separate with contact information |
| 20:45 |
|
NateC |
just brainstorming here.. |
| 20:45 |
|
bgkriegel |
NateC: not bad idea |
| 20:46 |
|
NateC |
this is a meritocracy so those who deserve merit are recognized |
| 20:46 |
|
drojf |
it may create a new genre of development. spam patches with the purpose of being listed :P |
| 20:46 |
|
NateC |
we can do it for individuals too |
| 20:46 |
|
cait |
i think we kept it simple to make it easy to verify |
| 20:46 |
|
cait |
might make things even more complicate |
| 20:46 |
|
cait |
fixing typos in the dev comments... :) |
| 20:46 |
|
slef |
NateC is not listening, missing one of the points of having that listing. |
| 20:46 |
|
cait |
are we ok to put this on the agenda for next time? |
| 20:46 |
|
slef |
ok |
| 20:46 |
|
indradg |
ok |
| 20:47 |
|
slef |
I think indradg is asking us to solve a social problem with a technical solution. Buyers can (and often do IME) put random junk in tenders. |
| 20:47 |
|
mtompset |
true. |
| 20:47 |
|
cait |
#topic KohaCon15 |
| 20:47 |
|
|
Topic for #koha is now KohaCon15 (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015) |
| 20:47 |
|
slef |
points 1, 2, 6 and 7 were also junk |
| 20:47 |
|
cait |
oh no |
| 20:47 |
|
slef |
(of the facebook example) |
| 20:47 |
|
cait |
we lost Teejay |
| 20:47 |
|
slef |
cait: can you remember where you last had Teejay? |
| 20:48 |
|
cait |
heh |
| 20:48 |
|
cait |
(22:42:00)? |
| 20:48 |
|
cait |
give me a moment to look up the points for the next topic |
| 20:49 |
|
NateC |
self there is a difference between not listening and not paying attention, I was listening :) |
| 20:49 |
|
talljoy_DND |
that felt a little rude slef |
| 20:50 |
|
cait |
#topic Actions from last meeting |
| 20:50 |
|
|
Topic for #koha is now Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015) |
| 20:50 |
|
cait |
#info there were no actions - so all got done |
| 20:50 |
|
|
rangi left #koha |
| 20:52 |
|
cait |
#topic Set time and date of the next General IRC Meeting |
| 20:52 |
|
|
Topic for #koha is now Set time and date of the next General IRC Meeting (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015) |
| 20:52 |
|
cait |
so normally we have a monthly cycle |
| 20:53 |
|
cait |
we could maybe go for 2 or 3 weeks this time? |
| 20:54 |
|
cait |
any preferences? |
| 20:54 |
|
drojf |
why? |
| 20:54 |
|
drojf |
i mean why have 2 or 3 instead of 4 this time? |
| 20:55 |
|
indradg |
monthly is fine |
| 20:55 |
|
* drojf |
is easily confused by everything today |
| 20:56 |
|
|
thd joined #koha |
| 20:56 |
|
cait |
ok, so monthly |
| 20:57 |
|
cait |
July... 8th? |
| 20:57 |
|
cait |
which is the next time? drojf? |
| 20:57 |
|
drojf |
10 utc? |
| 20:57 |
|
wahanui |
i heard 10 utc was a good time, but is very early on east coast USA |
| 20:58 |
|
cait |
ok, any veto? |
| 20:58 |
|
bgkriegel |
+1 |
| 20:58 |
|
talljoy_DND |
+1 |
| 20:58 |
|
cait |
#agreed next meeting will be held at June 8th, 10 UTC |
| 20:58 |
|
cait |
#endmeeting |
| 20:58 |
|
|
Topic for #koha is now Welcome to the IRC home of Koha http://koha-community.org | Code of conduct - http://koha-community.org/abou[…]/code-of-conduct/ | Please use http://paste.koha-community.org for pastes | Installation guide for Koha is http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Debian |
| 20:58 |
|
huginn |
Meeting ended Wed Jun 10 20:58:41 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) |
| 20:58 |
|
huginn |
Minutes: http://meetings.koha-community[…]-06-10-20.03.html |
| 20:58 |
|
huginn |
Minutes (text): http://meetings.koha-community[…]5-06-10-20.03.txt |
| 20:58 |
|
huginn |
Log: http://meetings.koha-community[…]10-20.03.log.html |
| 20:58 |
|
cait |
thx all for attending |
| 20:59 |
|
talljoy_DND |
thanks for chairing cait! |
| 20:59 |
|
talljoy_DND |
cait++ |
| 20:59 |
|
thd |
#info, Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City - Help my swiitch ports are failing!\ |
| 20:59 |
|
drojf |
cait++ |
| 20:59 |
|
slef |
thanks for managing cait |
| 20:59 |
|
wnickc |
cait++ |
| 20:59 |
|
bgkriegel |
cai++ |
| 20:59 |
|
bgkriegel |
cait++ |
| 21:00 |
|
thd |
Does anyone know why individual ports fail on a switch? |
| 21:03 |
|
thd |
indradg: Are you still here? |
| 21:03 |
|
indradg |
thd: yes |
| 21:04 |
|
thd |
I seemed to have missed the time for the meeting by an hour. |
| 21:04 |
|
indradg |
yeah... its 2:34 AM... luckily I dont sleep much |
| 21:04 |
|
indradg |
thanks cait |
| 21:05 |
|
thd |
indradg: I wanted to let you know that while I was started to set up a server for testing the wiki ... |
| 21:05 |
|
indradg |
thd++ |
| 21:06 |
|
indradg |
let me know when things are ready or if need any help to test things or something |
| 21:06 |
|
thd |
... for testing extensions, migration, and other big changes. |
| 21:07 |
|
thd |
indradg: My time has suddenly been taken for an extended but temporary period to help a friend threatened with eviction. |
| 21:07 |
|
indradg |
no problem |
| 21:08 |
|
thd |
indradg: I have a friend who is in trouble for having too many documents in his apartment to provide his own library beyond what some may consider the acceptable use of the space. |
| 21:09 |
|
indradg |
the french! only the french! :D |
| 21:09 |
|
thd |
indradg: I have promised the lawyer for the court and the landlord to help my friend fix the issue. |
| 21:11 |
|
indradg |
thd: give me a holler when you need / want me to do something |
| 21:11 |
|
thd |
indradg: He goes back to court in a week. I expect to also spend most of my time in July helping him if the court allows on the return to court date next Wed. |
| 21:12 |
|
indradg |
ok |
| 21:12 |
|
thd |
indradg: I expect to go back to spending much time in August on the wiki. |
| 21:15 |
|
thd |
indradg: As I had first seen in about 23 years ago, my friend has the most marvellous collection of books I have seen in a private collection. I am trying to ensure that he gives up what he does not want and keeps what does. |
| 21:15 |
|
indradg |
thats a shame! |
| 21:16 |
|
thd |
indradge: Most of what he is giving up is out of date technical literature but requires much time to sort through the sheer volume of it. |
| 21:17 |
|
cait |
wnickc++ thx! |
| 21:17 |
|
wnickc |
np, had been meaning to actually try translation |
| 21:18 |
|
wnickc |
just in testing, I don't know any oter languages to help with real translation :-) |
| 21:18 |
|
cait |
:) |
| 21:18 |
|
wnickc |
make that :-( |
| 21:18 |
|
cait |
you just helped with translation :) |
| 21:18 |
|
wnickc |
A tiny bit of Cezch, but didn't get far with that |
| 21:19 |
|
|
cdickinson joined #koha |
| 21:19 |
|
wnickc |
I had to keep a second koha open for reference to find my way around with DE |
| 21:21 |
|
cait |
heh |
| 21:21 |
|
cait |
it's all in the same spots... :) |
| 21:24 |
|
indradg |
koha-translate needs an --uninstall option |
| 21:25 |
|
cdickinson |
doesn't it have one? |
| 21:25 |
|
cait |
i think the pakcages might have one |
| 21:25 |
|
cdickinson |
I could have sworn it did |
| 21:25 |
|
cait |
i thought so too |
| 21:25 |
|
mtompset |
I don't think it does. |
| 21:25 |
|
cait |
who goes to look it up? heh |
| 21:26 |
|
indradg |
I did after working on bug 14252 |
| 21:26 |
|
huginn |
Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org[…]_bug.cgi?id=14252 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, indradg, Passed QA , Make the OPAC language switcher available in the masthead navbar, footer, or both. |
| 21:27 |
|
cait |
indradg: i think there is a different beween the normal translate and the packages commands |
| 21:27 |
|
wnickc |
If you are on a (3.12 or newer) packages install, you can just run: |
| 21:27 |
|
wnickc |
$ koha-translate --remove <language-code> |
| 21:27 |
|
wnickc |
according to wiki |
| 21:27 |
|
wnickc |
http://wiki.koha-community.org[…]entally_Installed |
| 21:27 |
|
cait |
yep, just not working in an ungitified dev install |
| 21:28 |
|
indradg |
cait: you are right, koha-translate does have a --remove option |
| 21:28 |
|
|
rangi joined #koha |
| 21:29 |
|
thd |
indradg: Do you have a thought about how to make the vendor list more useful without leading to the problem we had in which the LibLime of circa 2008 used community rules to exclude PTFS, a company new to Koha at the time? |
| 21:31 |
|
* wizzyrea |
looks at the backscroll. Oy. |
| 21:32 |
|
thd |
wizzyrea: Oy indeed. |
| 21:32 |
|
|
kidclamp joined #koha |
| 21:33 |
|
wizzyrea |
I remember 2008, it was unpleasant and I hope we learned from it |
| 21:33 |
|
wizzyrea |
I do swear when requests come in, that's true. I am also happy to maintain it, and happy to hand it over. I don't have a dog in that hunt. |
| 21:34 |
|
cait |
:) |
| 21:34 |
|
wizzyrea |
it almost always entails some modicum of drama from somewhere, and I really am not a fan of drama |
| 21:35 |
|
wizzyrea |
interpersonal drama. I like theatre fine. |
| 21:35 |
|
thd |
wizzyrea: Can you think of anything which helps reduce the problem which indradg has had in any way without reintroducing the problems of 2008. |
| 21:35 |
|
thd |
? |
| 21:35 |
|
|
gmcharlt joined #koha |
| 21:36 |
|
wizzyrea |
well, the things we have tried, such as putting an explicit disclaimer on the list, and more thoroughly checking over submissions haven't stopped or even touched the behaviour. |
| 21:36 |
|
indradg |
wizzyrea, thd have a look at this - http://ckoha.in/documents/CKoha_Intro.pdf, they requested for listing today... sounds like an Indian LL |
| 21:36 |
|
wizzyrea |
I saw that |
| 21:36 |
|
wizzyrea |
I'm going to lob the grenade that Koha really should be AGPL, to allow for that sort of thing better. |
| 21:37 |
|
mtompset |
AGPL? |
| 21:37 |
|
mtompset |
Link? |
| 21:37 |
|
wahanui |
somebody said Link was broken. Also, we don't know what tools you're using to create the marc, but there is probably an option in that tool. |
| 21:37 |
|
indradg |
wahanui: forget link |
| 21:37 |
|
wahanui |
indradg: I forgot link |
| 21:37 |
|
wizzyrea |
AGPL is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/[…]al_Public_License |
| 21:37 |
|
cait |
i think wizzyrea means changing the license so that they have to provide the code |
| 21:38 |
|
cait |
but if it's just css/jquery in the prefs that probably wouldn't change much |
| 21:38 |
|
wizzyrea |
although they claim in a later email that the code isn't modified |
| 21:38 |
|
cait |
yeah... it could be that#s true |
| 21:38 |
|
cait |
we also did that for one library... they wanted a lot of things hidden in staff |
| 21:39 |
|
drojf |
agpl would not hurt anyway |
| 21:39 |
|
drojf |
at least not the good ones :P |
| 21:39 |
|
wizzyrea |
If people are going to look at the list, and say "this confers some meaning on a vendor" - that belief is wrong. |
| 21:39 |
|
wizzyrea |
but I can't stop people from doing that |
| 21:40 |
|
indradg |
i've a selfish interest in AGPL.. there is a patch I've written, can't commit it directly as the js lib is AGPL |
| 21:40 |
|
mtompset |
But we can change the list to confer more or less value. |
| 21:40 |
|
thd |
wizzyrea, indradg: I think that the suggestions for 'meritocratic' metrics open too many problems and would be very difficult to distinguish from those which kados proposed from LibLime in 2008. kados had business competition motives which I do not suggest NateC are necessarily motivating the suggestion from NateC. |
| 21:40 |
|
wizzyrea |
I probably wouldn't be opposed to limiting the data that is provided |
| 21:40 |
|
wizzyrea |
I tend to agree with thd |
| 21:40 |
|
wizzyrea |
it is good, and proper, and lots of projects do, maintain a list of this sort |
| 21:41 |
|
wizzyrea |
to maintain* |
| 21:41 |
|
wizzyrea |
some of them, because they are backed by a big company |
| 21:41 |
|
wizzyrea |
do vetting of the vendors they authorise |
| 21:41 |
|
wizzyrea |
because we are not, we do not. |
| 21:41 |
|
indradg |
thd: yes, I agree, that has a significant downside |
| 21:41 |
|
|
mario joined #koha |
| 21:43 |
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|
NateC joined #koha |
| 21:43 |
|
mtompset |
Yes, but "This provider HAS submitted patches" "This provider HAS signed off patches" is vastly different than actually trying to count them which leads to problems. |
| 21:43 |
|
wizzyrea |
I'm not opposed to displaying less information about a vendor, or possibly changing what we display. A change that would require more maintenance would be for the listed companies to self report every $interval how many clients they have, and provide an actual client site as reference. |
| 21:44 |
|
indradg |
wizzyrea: btw, Avior technologies has removed therir fb presence which claimed 'the only authorized Koha service provider in eastern India', only google cache exists. |
| 21:45 |
|
wizzyrea |
That was an especially egregious violation of the community compact. |
| 21:45 |
|
thd |
I am all for AGPL 3 but I always thought that we should adopt that adopt that as the general license free from any emotional charge over what happened with PTFS and LibLime. |
| 21:45 |
|
drojf |
i don't know who said that, but if someone claims to be authorized or similar, removing them from the list completely does not sound like a bad idea |
| 21:46 |
|
wizzyrea |
yeah, I actually think we might be almost to the point where we can do that, thd |
| 21:46 |
|
indradg |
wizzyrea: thats what I was discussing offline with gmcharlt the other day... the listing works primarily on 'honor system' |
| 21:47 |
|
thd |
drojf++ Some escalation of warnings followed by a temporary removal for false claims seems to avoid much abuse of any kind of formal requirements otherwise. |
| 21:48 |
|
wizzyrea |
I can't stop the people who write tenders from doing daft things. |
| 21:48 |
|
wizzyrea |
and there isn't really a community entity that can issue something like a "cease and desist" |
| 21:48 |
|
wizzyrea |
aka sending to the tenderer "quit it, that's dumb and the list doesn't mean anythign" |
| 21:48 |
|
drojf |
wahanui should do that |
| 21:48 |
|
wahanui |
drojf: huh? |
| 21:49 |
|
cait |
i thin if it shows up somewhere, always worth pointing out there is no such thing |
| 21:49 |
|
cait |
as authorised |
| 21:49 |
|
thd |
:) |
| 21:50 |
|
thd |
Listing should start from the position of welcoming and trust. |
| 21:51 |
|
wizzyrea |
in principle I agree with you - de-listing is where it gets dodgy |
| 21:51 |
|
wizzyrea |
people get their feelings hurt. |
| 21:52 |
|
mtompset |
if the rules for listing and delisting are clear, screw feelings? :) |
| 21:52 |
|
indradg |
what if a "delisted" vendor sue us individually or severally, saying we caused loss of business and claims damages? |
| 21:52 |
|
mtompset |
cursed lawyers! |
| 21:52 |
|
wizzyrea |
especially if tenderers are requiring listing as a condition |
| 21:52 |
|
indradg |
especially so |
| 21:53 |
|
drojf |
as a lawyer i would now sue mtompset |
| 21:53 |
|
indradg |
:) |
| 21:53 |
|
wizzyrea |
so I think whatever happens, we need to pursue the option that shuts that right down. |
| 21:53 |
|
wizzyrea |
I don't know what it is exactly |
| 21:53 |
|
* mtompset |
goes :P to drojf. |
| 21:53 |
|
indradg |
yeah |
| 21:54 |
|
mtompset |
Isn't the problem a tender-er education one? |
| 21:54 |
|
thd |
wizzyrea: You are right in stating that we do not have an entity empowered to even temporarily remove a listing and running any sort of investigation to determine whether a claim of asserting authorized status would produce more problems than it would help. |
| 21:54 |
|
wizzyrea |
most of the time we won't *know* a tenderer is doing it, as well. |
| 21:55 |
|
wizzyrea |
I suppose we have the circumstantial evidence of a sudden influx of vendors from a certain area that might give us a hint |
| 21:55 |
|
mtompset |
Could not an "official" note be written, so that those that we do know about can be sent it? |
| 21:56 |
|
indradg |
mtompset: basic problem... who are we? |
| 21:56 |
|
wizzyrea |
Inclusion on this directory implies no “official†status whatsoever. Any organization who claims to be an “official†Koha support provider is misrepresenting their relationship to the Koha project. |
| 21:56 |
|
wizzyrea |
^ that is what we have on the front page of the list |
| 21:56 |
|
cait |
nods |
| 21:56 |
|
indradg |
a Koha Foundation could do it... perhaps... not us |
| 21:56 |
|
wizzyrea |
Restricting your choice of provider only to ones included on the list may unfairly exclude support providers and consultants who provide services for mainstream Koha. |
| 21:56 |
|
wizzyrea |
and this |
| 21:57 |
|
thd |
The whole idea of free software is that anyone including the user is fully qualified to provide service and inexperience is not no bar to making an effort to learning to do good work. |
| 21:57 |
|
wizzyrea |
I mean, we say it right there on the list |
| 21:57 |
|
wizzyrea |
thd++ core value, right there. |
| 21:58 |
|
mtompset |
It almost sounds like indradg needs to bold that part on the front page of all his submissions. ;) |
| 21:58 |
|
indradg |
wizzyrea: if there is a formal email like that on koha m/l, I can prolly bounce that across to every major lis mailing list in India. That should do some tenderer education |
| 21:59 |
|
indradg |
hopefully |
| 21:59 |
|
wizzyrea |
It's on the directory page! |
| 21:59 |
|
wizzyrea |
http://koha-community.org/support/paid-support/ |
| 21:59 |
|
thd |
drojf: Your suggestion of delisting even only temporary while better than some suggestions is not one that I could support upon reflection aside from pure spammers trying to advertise "bubble bath" or whatever not Koha. |
| 22:00 |
|
wizzyrea |
those don't ever make it anyway. |
| 22:01 |
|
wizzyrea |
I have always wanted to keep a certain purity to the list, that we don't judge on anything other than stated support of the koha community (by placing a link) |
| 22:01 |
|
thd |
wizzyrea: I assume that if you had been fooled by a fake Koha page from a "bubble bath" merchant you would easily remove the listing once someone discovered that all links about Koha which you had previously checked were now used for marketing "bubble bath" and not Koha. |
| 22:02 |
|
wizzyrea |
yep, that is absolutely how it would go down. |
| 22:03 |
|
wizzyrea |
I would consider that "website maintenance" |
| 22:03 |
|
indradg |
wizzyrea: appreciate that thought really... but to paraphrase gmcharlt we are ending up dealing with "sleazy second hand car sales people" |
| 22:03 |
|
wizzyrea |
ah but we also say on that page: This directory and its contents, including but not limited to the links to other sites, purveyors, providers, and vendors of other goods, services, or information, whether for informational purposes or in the form of paid advertisement, are made available by the Koha community on an “as is†basis and without any warranties of any kind as to accuracy, merchantability, or fitness of a vendor for a |
| 22:03 |
|
wizzyrea |
particular service. |
| 22:03 |
|
wizzyrea |
I feel like we're already doing our due diligence here |
| 22:04 |
|
wizzyrea |
and we also say: If you are seeking paid services for Koha, it is ultimately your responsibility to do the research to identify a provider or providers who can meet your needs. |
| 22:04 |
|
wizzyrea |
and give a few criteria. |
| 22:04 |
|
wizzyrea |
I feel that's a lot of handholding already |
| 22:05 |
|
wizzyrea |
we're basically saying "this is only a list. it doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme except that we know these people claim to support the project. You should do your own investigating. Happy to help you find them." |
| 22:05 |
|
indradg |
aargh! chuck it! it's making me sick... i would rather spend my time learning to write better perl |
| 22:06 |
|
wizzyrea |
:/ Not intending to be difficult |
| 22:07 |
|
indradg |
wizzyrea: its not at you... just this whole ridiculousness |
| 22:07 |
|
wizzyrea |
and I'd be happy to be corrected, if I'm making statements that aren't inline with the core Koha community values |
| 22:07 |
|
wizzyrea |
I think it could not hurt to take that text from the directory, and send it to tenderers. |
| 22:07 |
|
wizzyrea |
education is always good. |
| 22:07 |
|
thd |
wizzyrea: I think that existing statements for paid support are already very good. The best we could probably do for indradg with the listings is to consider some text changes, stronger wording, or even something elsewhere on the site, or pointing to another site to help people better understand free and open source software. |
| 22:08 |
|
thd |
s/best we could do/best we could do without recreating problems from the past/ |
| 22:08 |
|
wizzyrea |
in the end, we all exist in a state of coopetition |
| 22:08 |
|
mtompset |
oh, and add L2C2 for indradg while he has you here. :) |
| 22:09 |
|
indradg |
thd: what is happening on the ground is that the ones creating this problem are showcasing this listing as claims to have patches and community contributions |
| 22:10 |
|
wizzyrea |
then yeah, stronger words are probably in order. |
| 22:10 |
|
mtompset |
perhaps even links to bugzilla? :) |
| 22:10 |
|
wizzyrea |
probably add it to the list of criteria that people should check themselves |
| 22:10 |
|
wizzyrea |
no |
| 22:11 |
|
wizzyrea |
actually, we already have that |
| 22:12 |
|
pastebot |
"wizzyrea" at 127.0.0.1 pasted "suggested criteria for selecting a koha vendor" (5 lines) at http://paste.koha-community.org/141 |
| 22:12 |
|
wizzyrea |
http://koha-community.org/support/paid-support/ < that is already all here |
| 22:12 |
|
wizzyrea |
now. What I *could* do |
| 22:12 |
|
wizzyrea |
is not put any listings on that landing page. |
| 22:13 |
|
wizzyrea |
so people have to click through it to get to them |
| 22:13 |
|
thd |
indradg: What you might do in your own texts when seeking work is inform people who they can verify contributions which people have made without burdening the community with the hopeless task of trying to measure contributions by some objective metric which can never be fair to the quality of contribution. |
| 22:13 |
|
wizzyrea |
that is an antifeature, I'd rather avoid it |
| 22:13 |
|
wizzyrea |
thd: that is not a bad idea, actually. We could, as a community, suggest more strongly or have a guide to selecting a vendor |
| 22:14 |
|
wizzyrea |
I am not going to write that, though. |
| 22:14 |
|
wizzyrea |
and a guide for Koha for tenderers |
| 22:14 |
|
wizzyrea |
no, I think I have it |
| 22:15 |
|
wizzyrea |
what we need, is when someone is added to the list, is a list of our expectations. Not rules, but our expectations. |
| 22:15 |
|
wizzyrea |
that we send to them |
| 22:15 |
|
wizzyrea |
and we should have available, on our website |
| 22:15 |
|
wizzyrea |
a guide for libraries choosing Koha |
| 22:15 |
|
wizzyrea |
on how to select a vendor. |
| 22:15 |
|
wizzyrea |
does anyone want to volunteer to write these documents? |
| 22:16 |
|
thd |
wizzyrea: We all wrote much about the issue circa 2008. Much of what I wrote at the time was also privately to kados and others in the vain hope that we could find a way out of the mess and keep everyone involved in the community. |
| 22:17 |
|
wizzyrea |
I'm not sooooo concerned about another ptfs/liblime issue - for one, even though I work for a support company, I don't have any reason to keep anyone off of it, and I don't (except that I miss list mail sometimes) |
| 22:17 |
|
thd |
wizzyrea: I suggest that we do not have any sole author but put some text in git and vote on patches. |
| 22:18 |
|
thd |
wizzyrea: The existing text is a great starting point. |
| 22:19 |
|
wizzyrea |
yeah, I'm thinking of something almost conversational |
| 22:19 |
|
wizzyrea |
as if we, the koha community were sitting with a library having a chat and a coffee. |
| 22:19 |
|
wizzyrea |
and expressing what we expect of ourselves, and what they should expect from anyone who claims to be a part of us |
| 22:20 |
|
wizzyrea |
a statement of core values, certainly, but also how to spot charlatans. |
| 22:20 |
|
thd |
wizzyrea: That form seems fun. If you create an example that may be another or perhaps better starting point. |
| 22:20 |
|
wizzyrea |
this feels more like an education initiative to me than something that needs a change to the list |
| 22:22 |
|
thd |
wizzyrea: Yes it is an education initiative. However, such an education initiative should at least be prominently linked from the paid support page. |
| 22:22 |
|
wizzyrea |
yep, that is what I was thinking too. |
| 22:22 |
|
drojf |
good night #koha |
| 22:22 |
|
wizzyrea |
gnite drojf |
| 22:22 |
|
thd |
good night drojf |
| 22:22 |
|
mtompset |
Ingat, drojf |
| 22:23 |
|
indradg |
g'night druthb_away |
| 22:23 |
|
indradg |
oops |
| 22:23 |
|
* mtompset |
laughs. |
| 22:23 |
|
mtompset |
Too slow, just like your request for a listing is. :P |
| 22:23 |
|
thd |
I also have to go and fetch printer ink for my French teacher. |
| 23:10 |
|
|
tcohen joined #koha |
| 23:12 |
|
tcohen |
hi |
| 23:12 |
|
mtompset |
Greetings, tcohen |
| 23:12 |
|
tcohen |
hey mtompset, better? |
| 23:12 |
|
mtompset |
a little. I'm out of breath right now. I just killed a couple trees growing beside our house. |
| 23:15 |
|
tcohen |
hehe |
| 23:15 |
|
tcohen |
so you are recovered, i'm glad to hear that |
| 23:15 |
|
eythian |
hi |
| 23:19 |
|
|
matts_away joined #koha |
| 23:20 |
|
tcohen |
hi eythian |
| 23:21 |
|
wizzyrea |
I have made some changes to the support provider list: 1. I have made the landing page for the directory have no actual listings, in the hope people will read it before clicking through. 2. I have added the full disclaimer as it appears on the landing page appear on every directory page |
| 23:22 |
|
wizzyrea |
3. I removed the individual listings from the top of page menu, so that people will always go through the landing page. |
| 23:22 |
|
eythian |
4. I have made the "stop being silly, silly-heads!" text a lot larger. |
| 23:22 |
|
wizzyrea |
well no, I haven't but I could! |
| 23:22 |
|
wizzyrea |
<h1> here I come! |
| 23:23 |
|
eythian |
:D |
| 23:23 |
|
wizzyrea |
indradg ^ |
| 23:23 |
|
indradg |
wizzyrea: I'm on that page right now :) |
| 23:24 |
|
wizzyrea |
oh hang on I might need to clear the cache |
| 23:24 |
|
wizzyrea |
there we go |
| 23:25 |
|
tcohen |
wizzyrea++ |
| 23:26 |
|
|
hankbank joined #koha |
| 23:26 |
|
eythian |
Breaking news: today is curry thursday, and I finally remembered to order it on time for the first time in weeks! |
| 23:26 |
|
wizzyrea |
\o/ |
| 23:27 |
|
indradg |
wizzyrea++ |
| 23:27 |
|
indradg |
one question though |
| 23:27 |
|
wizzyrea |
shoot |
| 23:27 |
|
wizzyrea |
(it is entirely possible that I have made a mistake somewhere, I'll be happy to fix whatever you find) |
| 23:27 |
|
indradg |
' whether the provider expresses support for mainstream Koha.' - does this mean forks (whether the source is made available or no) are excluded? |
| 23:28 |
|
wizzyrea |
that bit isn't up to me |
| 23:28 |
|
indradg |
i know... this is more of a general question |
| 23:28 |
|
* tcohen |
reads the meeting log |
| 23:29 |
|
wizzyrea |
we can't stop people from forking, an optimal koha provider doesn't do that, however. |
| 23:29 |
|
wizzyrea |
and specifically |
| 23:29 |
|
wizzyrea |
doesn't fork it and call it Koha |
| 23:30 |
|
eythian |
forks are somewhat inevitable, but it's hard to say when it's gone too far. |
| 23:30 |
|
eythian |
it's like speciation |
| 23:30 |
|
wizzyrea |
^^ |
| 23:30 |
|
wizzyrea |
evolution is messy :) |
| 23:30 |
|
eythian |
many of our installs aren't stock, because they have their own weirdo customisations, or we've backported fixes/features from later versions. |
| 23:31 |
|
eythian |
(though, we make an effort to upstream everything that makes sense to upstream, obviously.) |
| 23:31 |
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mtompset |
wizzyrea: <blink></blink> ;) |
| 23:31 |
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* wizzyrea |
gives mtompset the side eye |
| 23:31 |
|
mtompset |
Blink is so annoying people are forced to read it. ;) |
| 23:32 |
|
wizzyrea |
http://www.gifwave.com/media/7[…]hloe-side-eye.gif |
| 23:33 |
|
wizzyrea |
it offends my delicate sensibilities |
| 23:33 |
|
eythian |
> This element is unsupported and thus implements the HTMLUnknownElement interface. |
| 23:33 |
|
wizzyrea |
:) |
| 23:33 |
|
wizzyrea |
eythian++ |
| 23:33 |
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indradg |
lol |
| 23:33 |
|
eythian |
https://developer.mozilla.org/[…]TML/Element/blink <-- I do quite like the page for it though |
| 23:33 |
|
eythian |
so many warning boxes |
| 23:34 |
|
wizzyrea |
lulz, but there's a solution! |
| 23:34 |
|
mtompset |
indradg: I would take it to mean that as long as they offer Koha, and not just C-Koha... I mean their own variant, they would get listed. ;) |
| 23:35 |
|
eythian |
from what I can tell, ckoha==koha |
| 23:36 |
|
eythian |
wizzyrea: ping |
| 23:36 |
|
indradg |
there is this BN_IN localized Koha called Konika. about 2 weeks back I asked the project's leads how I could get a copy. https://www.facebook.com/group[…]/893207200737328/ |
| 23:37 |
|
indradg |
no answer, both the people tagged have often approached me for help w.r.t Koha. |
| 23:37 |
|
eythian |
when they invent 48 hour days, I plan to add proper AGPL source downloading support into the packages. |
| 23:38 |
|
indradg |
instead a 3rd party privately tells me.. it is not available, but if YOU need it, i can get it for you |
| 23:38 |
|
* mtompset |
takes a break for supper... or whatever this meal is called now. |
| 23:39 |
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indradg |
basically that I shouldn't ask too many uncomfy questions eythian |
| 23:40 |
|
* indradg |
thinks it is almost time for the first cup of tea of the day |
| 23:40 |
|
eythian |
yeah, that's legal but pretty shady |
| 23:41 |
|
indradg |
eythian: I was more interested in getting them to work with bgkriegal on the bn_IN l10n... since they had bulk of the stuff already localized |
| 23:41 |
|
eythian |
oh right |
| 23:41 |
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| 23:41 |
|
eythian |
in that case, get it from them and release it :) |
| 23:42 |
|
eythian |
but it's quite stupid that they won't do it to start with. |
| 23:42 |
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| 23:42 |
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indradg |
they see the BN_IN UI as the USP of their Konika product |
| 23:43 |
|
indradg |
i just recruited two young librarian volunteers to do the translation, bernando signed them up pronto... we are now targeting BN_IN by 3.22 |
| 23:43 |
|
eythian |
ah cool |
| 23:44 |
|
eythian |
but it's dumb that you have to redo work that's already been done. |
| 23:45 |
|
indradg |
its a damn shame really... and Konika is being churned out of one of the top 20 schools in the country |
| 23:46 |
|
tcohen |
but they will have to put their translation inside their a*es which is great |
| 23:48 |
|
indradg |
tcohen: heh! btw... i have a bunch of Passed QA patches sitting... so whenever you have the time or inclination... :) |
| 23:50 |
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| 23:52 |
|
wizzyrea |
nopetopus is <reply> http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr[…]p2JoAH1qbl202.gif |
| 23:52 |
|
wizzyrea |
nopetopus? |
| 23:52 |
|
wahanui |
http://reactiongif.org/wp-cont[…]-run-away-GIF.gif |
| 23:52 |
|
wizzyrea |
yes that |
| 23:55 |
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