IRC log for #koha, 2015-06-10

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
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05:48 indradg kia ora #koha
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06:58 reiveune hello
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07:00 alex_a bonjour
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08:26 * magnuse waves
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08:51 * nlegrand waves also
08:52 * magnuse waves to nlegrand
08:53 nlegrand I've heard Joubou saying we can't add multiple SQL statements in an atomic update. But after a look at and, it's seems possible. Is it good practice to do so (1 atomic update -> 1 SQL statement) ?
08:53 * nlegrand waves back at magnuse
08:53 nlegrand magnuse:
08:54 cait nlegrand: i'd just try it :)
08:54 nlegrand cait: :)
08:54 cait i haven't seen one with mulitple sql statements so far
09:04 magnuse waving is
09:04 magnuse is it possible to get rid of the descriptions/notes tab in the opac (othen than through css/js)?
09:06 magnuse guess not
09:23 schnydszch hi magnuse that was a problem/use case for me many months ago.
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09:42 magnuse schnydszch: how did you solve it? css/js?
09:43 schnydszch haha i just give up :P
09:44 schnydszch err.. i just put details from notes/description in xslt
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10:06 drojf hi #koha
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12:20 DisneyDave If I wanted to get a list of all users who have checked out an item since 10/1/2014, is there an existing report I can run or do I need to write a custom SQL report?
12:21 DisneyDave I did not see an existing report but you all are the experts. :)
12:21 Viktor Filed an RFC for "History for MARC records" over at[…]_for_MARC_records. Will hopefully flesh it out a bit in the coming days. We hope to get some kind of POC up so people can point out what we are (very probably) doing wrong.
12:23 Viktor kivilahtio_ : We plan to save not only what have been edited and when but also by who (or from what source)
12:23 magnuse DisneyDave: it sounds kind of familiar...
12:24 Viktor kivilahtio_ : I'll give a shout when we have something useful to look at.
12:24 kivilahtio_ Viktor: thanks!
12:25 magnuse DisneyDave: have a look at http://INTRANET/cgi-bin/koha/r[…]/ ?
12:25 DisneyDave Magnuse: Thanks. Let me take a lok
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12:28 tcohen morning!
12:28 DisneyDave Magnuse:do you have the full URL or how I navigate to it
12:28 DisneyDave Tcohen: GOOD Morning!
12:29 tcohen =D
12:29 magnuse DisneyDave: it's on the right hand side of the reports page
12:29 magnuse under "inactive": "Patrons who haven't checked out"
12:30 DisneyDave Magnuse:  Thanks!
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12:35 tcohen Joubu!
12:36 magnuse tcohen!
12:36 wahanui tcohen is obsessed with automated testing :)
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12:59 tcohen khall: aroud?
12:59 khall what's up?
12:59 tcohen confetti!
12:59 wahanui well, confetti is[…]1tt9lrzo6_250.gif
13:00 tcohen happy birthday
13:00 tcohen :-D
13:00 tcohen confetti!"
13:00 khall thanks!
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13:07 magnuse yeah, happy birthday khall
13:07 khall thanks magnuse!
13:08 fridolin howww, happy birthday khall
13:09 khall thanks! I'll have to figure out how old I am. I stopped keeping track a few years back ; )
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13:25 fridolin tcohen: good morning
13:26 fridolin FYI we have been working a lot on SIP server and it has show problems on database connection
13:26 fridolin see Bug 14375 and Bug 14374
13:26 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=14375 major, P5 - low, ---, fridolyn.somers, Needs Signoff , DBIx::Connector should be stored in C4::Context instead of dbh
13:26 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=14374 normal, P5 - low, ---, fridolyn.somers, Needs Signoff , dont use mysql_auto_reconnect with BDIx::Connector
13:26 cait oh happy birthday khall!
13:26 fridolin Joubu: cc ^
13:27 khall thanks cait!
13:33 drojf happy birthday khall!
13:33 khall thanks!
13:56 schnydszch happy birthday khall!
13:57 khall thanks!
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15:05 reiveune bye
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16:18 mtompset Greetings, #koha.
16:18 mtompset @seen tcohen
16:18 huginn mtompset: tcohen was last seen in #koha 3 hours, 18 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <tcohen> confetti!"
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16:41 at_irc_oftc_net I'm adding a new record from "Z-resources" and want to add a new marc tag.  But how?
16:42 at_irc_oftc_net I want to add marc tag "952" but cannot find a icon to let me do it
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16:43 at_irc_oftc_net Also, when I edit an item, how could I change its collection code?
16:51 mtompset @seen khall
16:51 huginn mtompset: khall was last seen in #koha 2 hours, 54 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <khall> thanks!
16:51 mtompset Are you around, khall?
16:51 khall indeed!
16:51 mtompset Great! I have a question for you about t/db_dependent/Circulation.t
16:52 khall sure!
16:52 khall afk, brb
16:52 mtompset You added at least one test in bug 11634 (commit 3b300146b2ca478472c5305abcc84ca0033b17ff)
16:52 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=11634 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, kyle, Pushed to Master , Allow renewal of item with unfilled holds if other available items can fill those holds
16:52 mtompset where you did a Koha::Database->new()->schema
16:53 mtompset and another test with the same call.
16:53 mtompset was there a reason for calling new()->schema like that?
16:53 mtompset or is a single $schema = $database->schema(); at the top of the test usable?
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16:57 mtompset Does my inquiry make sense? Because I'm trying to do the AutoCommit fix, and if you call Koha::Database->new()->schema, the autocommit isn't off.
17:00 khall mtompset: you are correct, I should have reused the existing $schema variable
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17:01 mtompset okay... just checking, to make sure there wasn't any other underlying reason. Actually, the existing $schema you put in later. ;)
17:01 khall we should only ever need to grab the schema once per script/sub
17:01 khall nope, I imagine I just didn't realize there was already a schema I could have re-used
17:02 mtompset Okay, good... change those two lines, and I'll be happy with that fix. ... NEXT! :)
17:06 edveal is anyone using self-registrion via the opac? I have a question for you…
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18:07 mtompset edveal-afk: What was your question about self-registration? I think I played with it a bit. :)
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18:52 POCLD Hi. One of our branches suddenly stopped being able to print hold slips back in May. They can still print other slips, so I know the printing itself is ok. I had them try it in Firefox and Chrome, but neither work. When they click on 'Print slip, transfer and confirm' the message disappears, but that's it. Nothing prints, no printer dialog, nothing. Any ideas greatly appreciated. Thanks
18:52 cait POCLD: dd you check the notice templates?
18:52 cait do they have a RESERVESLIP template?
18:53 cait is it assigned to the same module as the working ones?
18:53 cait are you using any javascript for making the printing work more seamlessly?
18:55 POCLD Wow, that was fast! Sadly I don't know the answer to any of those questions. I know it was working, and then 'just stopped'. I'm not aware that we are using any templates, how would I know if it's assigned to the same module? I'm not aware of any Javascript used in the printing.
18:55 cait POCLD: ok, first let's check the standard things
18:56 cait you want to go to tools > notices and slips
18:56 cait where are you form POCLD?
18:57 POCLD Yes, Pond Oreille County Library District, in WA. Part of the CIN group, using Koha through Bywater Solutions
18:57 cait ah
18:57 cait well once you are in tools, we are looking for the notice template with the Code RESERVESLIP
18:58 cait as you have mulitple libraries, there might be several
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18:58 cait for the different branches
18:58 POCLD ok, I'm just remoting into the machine
18:58 cait hi talljoy
18:58 talljoy hiya cait!
18:59 cait trying to figure out why a reserveslip wouldn't print for one library
19:01 POCLD ok, getting there. It's a very slow pc
19:03 cait you are in the staff interface, right?
19:03 POCLD yes
19:03 POCLD I'm trying to find the notices and slips part
19:03 cait it's in tools
19:03 cait first column left
19:04 POCLD I only have 'Upload patron images'
19:04 cait then you aremissing the permission to do that
19:04 POCLD darn =(
19:04 cait you will have to get into contact with someone else then
19:05 POCLD unfortunatley I'm not the adminsitrator of Koha for the whole library network, only of the IT in this district
19:05 cait yeah, but there is not much we can do when you can't access the pages :(
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19:06 cait oyu will have to contact support/administration
19:06 POCLD ok, well thank you for trying. =)
19:06 cait sorry to not be able to help more
19:12 pianohacker talljoy: fyi I can't talk because the zoom linux client is screwy
19:12 talljoy i thought maybe you took a vow of silence
19:13 huginn New commit(s) kohagit: Bug 13437: Replace javascript function parameter in builder <[…]4f7b8c7e7ba588132> / Bug 13437: Conversion of marc21 cataloguing plugins to new style <[…]ff46881d3b2896e49> / Bug 13437: Trivial edits on marc21 plugins before conversion <http://git.koha-commun
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19:48 bgkriegel hello
19:48 wahanui hey, bgkriegel
19:49 cait hi bgkriegel :)
19:49 bgkriegel hi cait :)
19:49 nengard hiya bgkriegel
19:49 nengard and cait
19:49 nengard and everyone :)
19:52 cait hi nengard
19:54 bgkriegel hola nengard
20:00 cait so meeting time i guess?
20:00 indradg hi al
20:01 indradg s/al/all
20:01 pianohacker meeting?
20:01 wahanui i guess meeting is in two days, i thought was tomorrow. plenty of time then
20:01 cait irc general meeting?
20:01 cait this one
20:01 wahanui this one is cool as long as someone *wants* acknowledgement
20:01 cait[…]ting_10_June_2015
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20:02 indradg @wunder
20:02 huginn indradg: (wunder <US zip code | US/Canada city, state | Foreign city, country>) -- Returns the approximate weather conditions for a given city.
20:03 cait #startmeeting General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015
20:03 huginn Meeting started Wed Jun 10 20:03:00 2015 UTC.  The chair is cait. Information about MeetBot at
20:03 huginn Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
20:03 Topic for #koha is now  (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015)
20:03 huginn The meeting name has been set to 'general_irc_meeting___10_june_2015'
20:03 pianohacker oh yar
20:03 cait #topic introductions
20:03 wahanui #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient
20:03 Topic for #koha is now introductions (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015)
20:03 cait please introduce yourself with info, following the bot's example
20:03 pianohacker #info Jesse Weaver, ByWater Solutions
20:03 cait today's agenda can be found at
20:03 cait #link[…]ting_10_June_2015
20:03 cait #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany
20:03 drojf #info Mirko Tietgen, Berlin, Germany
20:03 indradg #info Indranil Das Gupta, L2C2 Technologies, IN
20:03 nengard #info Nicole Engard, ByWater Solutions
20:04 talljoy_DND #info Joy Nelson, ByWater Solutions
20:04 JesseM #info Jesse Maseto, ByWater Solutions, USA
20:05 cait doesn't look like a big crowd tonight
20:05 cait let's move on
20:05 cait #topic Announcements
20:05 Topic for #koha is now Announcements (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015)
20:05 cait any announcements? :)
20:06 JesseM koha is awesome
20:06 cait heh ok
20:06 cait that counts
20:06 cait i am moving on then
20:06 wnickc #info Nick Clemens, VOKAL Consortium, USA
20:06 cait bgkriegel: maybe annoucne your hackfest?
20:07 cait well i have heard rumours about a koha hackfest in Buenos Aires sometime soon :)
20:07 cait moving on
20:08 cait #topic Updates on releases
20:08 Topic for #koha is now Updates on releases (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015)
20:08 bgkriegel #info Bernardo Gonzalez Kriegel
20:08 bgkriegel sorry late
20:08 cait np
20:08 cait want to add something now?
20:09 nengard Koha North American Users Group meeting will be in August
20:09 bgkriegel well, hackfest on Buenos Aires 2-3 July
20:09 NateC Nate from ByWater is here
20:09 cait #info Koha North American Users Group meeting in August
20:09 nengard[…]-group-conference
20:09 cait #link[…]-group-conference
20:09 edveal #info Ed Veal ByWater USA
20:09 cait #info Hackfest in Buenos Aires, Argentina, 2-3 July
20:10 cait so many fun Koha events! - is he teleporter ready finally?
20:10 bgkriegel We'll have some people from Chile!
20:10 rangi #info chris cormack, catalyst
20:10 mtompset #info Mark Tompsett
20:10 NateC #info Nate Curulla ByWater
20:10 cait ok, rangi - you are rmaint - any update on releases? :)
20:11 rangi steady as she goes, string freeze 15th, release on 22nd as normal
20:11 cait #info releases are on track - string freeze on 15th, release on 22nd as normal
20:11 nengard I'll need to get the help files updated probably before the next release (since I won't do it in the next 5 days)
20:11 nengard but I do believe the manual is mainly done for 3.20
20:12 cait #info manual is mainly done for 3.20, help files still to be updated
20:12 cait ok, anything else about releases before we move on?
20:12 cait moving on
20:12 cait #topic KohaCon15/16
20:12 Topic for #koha is now KohaCon15/16 (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015)
20:12 rangi just that 14360 should get pushed soon, so it can go in all the releases
20:13 cait that was the security one
20:13 cait ?
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20:13 nengard bug 14360
20:13 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=14360 is not accessible.
20:13 rangi yup
20:13 rangi its passed qa
20:14 cait #info bug 14360 to be included into the next releases (security fix)
20:14 nengard is that the right bug number?
20:14 cait yes
20:14 cait it's not visible, because it's security
20:14 nengard got it
20:14 cait is someone from kohacon15 organizing team around tonight?
20:15 rangi doesnt look like it
20:15 NateC heh
20:15 cait #bids for KohaCon16 are still open - please add your proposal if you are interested in hosting!
20:16 cait can someoneget the link for me?
20:16 mtompset YAY, Philippines!
20:16 JesseM[…]ategory:KohaCon16
20:16 nengard[…]haCon16_Proposals
20:16 nengard cait I don't see Germany there??!!
20:16 cait heh
20:16 JesseM :)
20:16 cait #link[…]haCon16_Proposals
20:17 rangi im just waiting to hear back from my bosses if they will cover the airfare to nigeria ill be going to kohacon15
20:17 * cait suggests harassing drojf :P
20:17 nengard Philippines is great too
20:17 cait ok, moving on
20:18 cait #topic Next steps in Fundraising
20:18 Topic for #koha is now Next steps in Fundraising (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015)
20:18 cait Bob posted the TOR 2 days ago, they can be found here:
20:18 cait #link
20:18 cait #info TOR = Terms of Reference posted for discussion
20:18 cait is someone from the fundraising committee here?
20:19 NateC Brendan is not in today
20:19 NateC moving into a new house
20:20 cait I have agreed with Bob and Brendan that I will ask for people to comment on the mailing list or the wiki
20:20 indradg +1
20:20 cait which i hereby do :)
20:20 cait #action all please read the Terms of reference and ask questions on the mailing list or leave comments on the wiki
20:21 cait anything?
20:21 wahanui anything is possible with enough development work :)
20:21 cait heh thx wahanui
20:22 JesseM +1
20:22 cait ok, moving on
20:22 cait #topic Misc
20:22 Topic for #koha is now Misc (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015)
20:23 nengard I love Koha :)
20:23 cait indradg?
20:23 wahanui indradg is the one who told me.
20:23 indradg yeah.. i would like to discuss about the listed provider listing on the site
20:24 * mtompset cringes in fear over the heat that will be generated.
20:24 indradg being listed on it is being used by both vendors as well as users floating RFPs that the bidder must be a registered service provider or authorized service provider
20:24 indradg this was added in May 2014 -[…]upport-companies/
20:25 indradg as a clarification
20:25 indradg in Feb 2015, gmcharlt posted this on his blog, based on an actual violation[…]ervice-providers/
20:25 indradg and if you are on facebook, you can see here[…]41&type=1&theater
20:25 cait #link[…]upport-companies/
20:26 indradg a major university in India asking for registered vendors
20:26 cait #link[…]ervice-providers/
20:26 indradg for instance L2C2 does not qualify to bid
20:26 indradg rangi has been aware of these concerns as is wizzyrea
20:27 indradg since the listing is maintained between wizzyrea and gmcharlt as volunteers
20:27 indradg cait: so here is the deal. as a community we can't perhaps go policing the providers.
20:28 indradg but India is one of the places which is seeing a very fast uptake/adoption of Koha
20:28 slef #info MJ Ray
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20:28 indradg and the listing is being, at the lack of a better word "weaponized"
20:29 cait it's sad to hear it - I often point people to that page when they are looking for options
20:29 cait indradg: what do you suggest?
20:29 slef TOR is The Onion Router
20:29 indradg so, what can we do? - remove the listing altogether? word it better (little scope for that), c) have the vendors include a boilerplate text
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20:30 cait we could put a more obvious note in the top i think - but you can't force people to read
20:30 mtompset And people will not read it.
20:30 slef sadly we can't stop buyers putting in whatever stupid things they want in their qualification criteria
20:31 slef it is up to their stakeholders to police them
20:31 indradg slef: if there is no listing there is no scope for "registered" / "authorised" service providers
20:31 slef indradg: and then everyone will post whatever lies they like on their own websites, like before
20:31 rangi the amount of stress it causes wizzyrea, id vote removing it
20:32 mtompset Which, by the way, we also could extend this problem into the Wiki.
20:32 drojf how is the list "weaponized"? i don't understand what is the problem
20:32 cait it's still a useful resource to others... not only a dark side to it
20:32 nengard I'd love a way that didn't cause stress for wizzyrea - but keep it - lots of open source software projects have a page of support providers
20:32 mtompset drojf: If a person isn't listed, they aren't considered an authorized provider.
20:32 nengard it's a useful tool
20:32 indradg drojf: I'm not listed. A tender says I must be a registered Koha support provider listed on
20:32 cait i'd be sad to see it gone
20:33 slef indradg: and also people will try to make their own astroturf sites beat in search results, like before
20:33 cait indradg: why are you not listed? sorry, but kinda asking the obvious question i guess :)
20:33 drojf indradg: maybe that is a stupid question for some reason, but why are you not listed?
20:33 drojf hi5 cait
20:33 indradg cait: laziness more than anything. I keep getting work via referrals
20:33 rangi you should see all the offlist mail wizzyrea gets too
20:33 slef remember what part of the point of the listing requirements was: to get lots of good library sites pointing to the community site as the recognised home of koha
20:34 rangi i reckon someone else should volunteer to maintain it
20:34 indradg India has the largest number of listed providers on that list
20:34 rangi because its a bs job
20:34 indradg and the lowest ratio in patches
20:34 cait maybe we could share it - or an autorespond to ask on the list
20:34 indradg that says its own story
20:34 cait or both
20:34 rangi so the people who want to keep it, one or a few of them should email wizzyrea to ask how they can help
20:35 indradg rangi asked about ckoha source earlier in the day
20:35 drojf ok. i understand the point of it being a bad job. i do not get the "i am too lazy to get listed, it has to go" part?
20:35 slef I also think we should update the listing requirements
20:35 rangi its not too lazy, its being on the site confers some kinda officialness which is crap
20:36 slef How about, if you are caught claiming to be an authorized or registered listing provider, we boot you off the list for a year?
20:36 indradg drojf: I never thought being listed was a criteria.
20:36 rangi that is the problem, people think its actually a useful list, when all it is a list anyone can get on, that we don't check up on, and is marketed as being an official list
20:36 slef s/listing//
20:36 rangi slef: yeah policing .. that will make the job even better
20:36 rangi bags not having anything to do with that
20:37 rangi specially as a support provider
20:37 indradg what is happening is that while applying for listing, the pages are clean and sweet... once listed, the text changes
20:37 slef rangi: I know it's a sucky job.  I've kept listings on various sites before.
20:37 rangi im not opening myself up to lawsuits for taking action against other support providers
20:37 Teejay joined #koha
20:38 rangi ive dealt with enough lawyers through koha to last a lifetime
20:38 slef rangi: indeed. When wizzyrea started doing the task, she wasn't working at a support provider. We probably need new people to do it.
20:38 indradg heh rangi :)
20:38 slef rangi: errr have I mentioned my peer certification idea here before?
20:38 drojf the only thing i tell people is to ask the support companies they consider working with about their involvement in the community.
20:38 cait i am not sure if working at a support provider has something to do with it
20:38 nengard I think it sounds like we need a few things: #1 a new title (not official)  #2 A description  #3 someone else to maintain the list
20:38 Teejay #info Tunji Adepeju Projektlink Konsult Limited Nigeria
20:38 cait hi Teejay
20:39 nengard Have a lit of providers - even unofficial - is useful to those who find the Koha page - then if theyr'e scared to do it alone they can find someone local easily
20:39 slef oh yeah, back in 2011
20:39 rangi cait: it does, if we are going to take action, like remove listings
20:39 cait maybe a first thing we shoudl do is ask wizzyrea if she wants to get rid of doing it
20:39 rangi hi Teejay :)
20:39 Teejay Hello
20:39 wahanui bidet, Teejay
20:39 rangi i know she does
20:39 cait and then gather some ideas to vote decideon on the wiki for the next meeting?
20:39 rangi i hear her swearing everytime the topic comes up
20:39 cait with someone mailing the mailing list?
20:40 slef[…]11-07-12#i_711907
20:40 rangi now Teejay is here, we could revisit kohacon15 maybe?
20:40 mtompset Yes.
20:40 cait yep in a moment
20:40 cait would someone volunteer to email the mailing list asking for ideas and volunteers?
20:41 slef cait: about the listings?
20:41 cait yes
20:41 Teejay Thank you
20:41 mtompset[…]Support_Companies
20:41 mtompset Same problem on the Wiki.
20:42 Teejay Had some difficulty with the Internet
20:42 slef anyone know when wizzyrea will be online next? I think we should talk to her first
20:42 Viktor joined #koha
20:42 cait maybe one idea: move it to the wiki
20:42 NateC I think the listing is useful as proof that the community is broad and that libraries don't need to worry about vendor lockin
20:42 cait not so nice sorting options then, but it will be 'less official'
20:42 NateC so in one way or another, the availability of options should be showcased
20:42 cait NateC++ yeah, that's how i feel about it too - but i see the problems
20:43 NateC another option is to get rid of the list and have another list that highlights companies who are regular contributors to the community
20:43 cait #info discussion about the presentation of the vendor list to be continued at next meeting
20:44 NateC either via signoffs or testing or devs etc...
20:44 NateC make it an incentive
20:44 mtompset Oooo... I like that idea, NateC.
20:44 NateC a karma page
20:44 NateC or something like that
20:44 slef NateC: that also removes the incentive for them to link back to, doesn't it?
20:44 drojf that sounds reasonable to me. its what i tell people to ask providers about anyway
20:44 NateC or "the community thanks the following vendors for their contributions" page
20:44 cait we kid of have that with the dashboard - but i think also need a place separate with contact information
20:45 NateC just brainstorming here..
20:45 bgkriegel NateC: not bad idea
20:46 NateC this is a meritocracy so those who deserve merit are recognized
20:46 drojf it may create a new genre of development. spam patches with the purpose of being listed :P
20:46 NateC we can do it for individuals too
20:46 cait i think we kept it simple to make it easy to verify
20:46 cait might make things even more complicate
20:46 cait fixing typos in the dev comments... :)
20:46 slef NateC is not listening, missing one of the points of having that listing.
20:46 cait are we ok to put this on the agenda for next time?
20:46 slef ok
20:46 indradg ok
20:47 slef I think indradg is asking us to solve a social problem with a technical solution.  Buyers can (and often do IME) put random junk in tenders.
20:47 mtompset true.
20:47 cait #topic KohaCon15
20:47 Topic for #koha is now KohaCon15 (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015)
20:47 slef points 1, 2, 6 and 7 were also junk
20:47 cait oh no
20:47 slef (of the facebook example)
20:47 cait we lost Teejay
20:47 slef cait: can you remember where you last had Teejay?
20:48 cait heh
20:48 cait (22:42:00)?
20:48 cait give me a moment to look up the points for the next topic
20:49 NateC self there is a difference between not listening and not paying attention, I was listening :)
20:49 talljoy_DND that felt a little rude slef
20:50 cait #topic Actions from last meeting
20:50 Topic for #koha is now Actions from last meeting (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015)
20:50 cait #info there were no actions - so all got done
20:50 rangi left #koha
20:52 cait #topic Set time and date of the next General IRC Meeting
20:52 Topic for #koha is now Set time and date of the next General IRC Meeting (Meeting topic: General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015)
20:52 cait so normally we have a monthly cycle
20:53 cait we could maybe go for 2 or 3 weeks this time?
20:54 cait any preferences?
20:54 drojf why?
20:54 drojf i mean why have 2 or 3 instead of 4 this time?
20:55 indradg monthly is fine
20:55 * drojf is easily confused by everything today
20:56 thd joined #koha
20:56 cait ok, so monthly
20:57 cait July... 8th?
20:57 cait which is the next time? drojf?
20:57 drojf 10 utc?
20:57 wahanui i heard 10 utc was a good time, but is very early on east coast USA
20:58 cait ok, any veto?
20:58 bgkriegel +1
20:58 talljoy_DND +1
20:58 cait #agreed next meeting will be held at June 8th, 10 UTC
20:58 cait #endmeeting
20:58 Topic for #koha is now Welcome to the IRC home of Koha | Code of conduct -[…]/code-of-conduct/ |  Please use for pastes | Installation guide for Koha is
20:58 huginn Meeting ended Wed Jun 10 20:58:41 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)
20:58 huginn Minutes:        http://meetings.koha-community[…]-06-10-20.03.html
20:58 huginn Minutes (text): http://meetings.koha-community[…]5-06-10-20.03.txt
20:58 huginn Log:            http://meetings.koha-community[…]10-20.03.log.html
20:58 cait thx all for attending
20:59 talljoy_DND thanks for chairing cait!
20:59 talljoy_DND cait++
20:59 thd #info, Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City - Help my swiitch ports are failing!\
20:59 drojf cait++
20:59 slef thanks for managing cait
20:59 wnickc cait++
20:59 bgkriegel cai++
20:59 bgkriegel cait++
21:00 thd Does anyone know why individual ports fail on a switch?
21:03 thd indradg: Are you still here?
21:03 indradg thd: yes
21:04 thd I seemed to have missed the time for the meeting by an hour.
21:04 indradg yeah... its 2:34 AM... luckily I dont sleep much
21:04 indradg thanks cait
21:05 thd indradg: I wanted to let you know that while I was started to set up a server for testing the wiki ...
21:05 indradg thd++
21:06 indradg let me know when things are ready or if need any help to test things or something
21:06 thd ... for testing extensions, migration, and other big changes.
21:07 thd indradg: My time has suddenly been taken for an extended but temporary period to help a friend threatened with eviction.
21:07 indradg no problem
21:08 thd indradg: I have a friend who is in trouble for having too many documents in his apartment to provide his own library beyond what some may consider the acceptable use of the space.
21:09 indradg the french! only the french! :D
21:09 thd indradg: I have promised the lawyer for the court and the landlord to help my friend fix the issue.
21:11 indradg thd: give me a holler when you need / want me to do something
21:11 thd indradg: He goes back to court in a week.  I expect to also spend most of my time in July helping him if the court allows on the return to court date next Wed.
21:12 indradg ok
21:12 thd indradg: I expect to go back to spending much time in August on the wiki.
21:15 thd indradg: As I had first seen in about 23 years ago, my friend has the most marvellous collection of books I have seen in a private collection.  I am trying to ensure that he gives up what he does not want and keeps what does.
21:15 indradg thats a shame!
21:16 thd indradge: Most of what he is giving up is out of date technical literature but requires much time to sort through the sheer volume of it.
21:17 cait wnickc++ thx!
21:17 wnickc np, had been meaning to actually try translation
21:18 wnickc just in testing, I don't know any oter languages to help with real translation :-)
21:18 cait :)
21:18 wnickc make that :-(
21:18 cait you just helped with translation :)
21:18 wnickc A tiny bit of Cezch, but didn't get far with that
21:19 cdickinson joined #koha
21:19 wnickc I had to keep a second koha open for reference to find my way around with DE
21:21 cait heh
21:21 cait it's all in the same spots... :)
21:24 indradg koha-translate needs an --uninstall option
21:25 cdickinson doesn't it have one?
21:25 cait i think the pakcages might have one
21:25 cdickinson I could have sworn it did
21:25 cait i thought so too
21:25 mtompset I don't think it does.
21:25 cait who goes to look it up? heh
21:26 indradg I did after working on bug 14252
21:26 huginn Bug[…]_bug.cgi?id=14252 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, indradg, Passed QA , Make the OPAC language switcher available in the masthead navbar, footer, or both.
21:27 cait indradg: i think there is a different beween the normal translate and the packages commands
21:27 wnickc If you are on a (3.12 or newer) packages install, you can just run:
21:27 wnickc $ koha-translate --remove <language-code>
21:27 wnickc according to wiki
21:27 wnickc[…]entally_Installed
21:27 cait yep, just not working in an ungitified dev install
21:28 indradg cait: you are right, koha-translate does have a --remove option
21:28 rangi joined #koha
21:29 thd indradg: Do you have a thought about how to make the vendor list more useful without leading to the problem we had in which the LibLime of circa 2008 used community rules to exclude PTFS, a company new to Koha at the time?
21:31 * wizzyrea looks at the backscroll. Oy.
21:32 thd wizzyrea: Oy indeed.
21:32 kidclamp joined #koha
21:33 wizzyrea I remember 2008, it was unpleasant and I hope we learned from it
21:33 wizzyrea I do swear when requests come in, that's true. I am also happy to maintain it, and happy to hand it over. I don't have a dog in that hunt.
21:34 cait :)
21:34 wizzyrea it almost always entails some modicum of drama from somewhere, and I really am not a fan of drama
21:35 wizzyrea interpersonal drama. I like theatre fine.
21:35 thd wizzyrea: Can you think of anything which helps reduce the problem which indradg has had in any way without reintroducing the problems of 2008.
21:35 thd ?
21:35 gmcharlt joined #koha
21:36 wizzyrea well, the things we have tried, such as putting an explicit disclaimer on the list, and more thoroughly checking over submissions haven't stopped or even touched the behaviour.
21:36 indradg wizzyrea, thd have a look at this -, they requested for listing today... sounds like an Indian LL
21:36 wizzyrea I saw that
21:36 wizzyrea I'm going to lob the grenade that Koha really should be AGPL, to allow for that sort of thing better.
21:37 mtompset AGPL?
21:37 mtompset Link?
21:37 wahanui somebody said Link was broken. Also, we don't know what tools you're using to create the marc, but there is probably an option in that tool.
21:37 indradg wahanui: forget link
21:37 wahanui indradg: I forgot link
21:37 wizzyrea AGPL is[…]al_Public_License
21:37 cait i think wizzyrea means changing the license so that they have to provide the code
21:38 cait but if it's just css/jquery in the prefs that probably wouldn't change much
21:38 wizzyrea although they claim in a later email that the code isn't modified
21:38 cait yeah... it could be that#s true
21:38 cait we also did that for one library... they wanted a lot of things hidden in staff
21:39 drojf agpl would not hurt anyway
21:39 drojf at least not the good ones :P
21:39 wizzyrea If people are going to look at the list, and say "this confers some meaning on a vendor" - that belief is wrong.
21:39 wizzyrea but I can't stop people from doing that
21:40 indradg i've a selfish interest in AGPL.. there is a patch I've written, can't commit it directly as the js lib is AGPL
21:40 mtompset But we can change the list to confer more or less value.
21:40 thd wizzyrea, indradg:  I think that the suggestions for 'meritocratic' metrics open too many problems and would be very difficult to distinguish from those which kados proposed from LibLime in 2008.  kados had business competition motives which I do not suggest NateC are necessarily motivating the suggestion from NateC.
21:40 wizzyrea I probably wouldn't be opposed to limiting the data that is provided
21:40 wizzyrea I tend to agree with thd
21:40 wizzyrea it is good, and proper, and lots of projects do, maintain a list of this sort
21:41 wizzyrea to maintain*
21:41 wizzyrea some of them, because they are backed by a big company
21:41 wizzyrea do vetting of the vendors they authorise
21:41 wizzyrea because we are not, we do not.
21:41 indradg thd: yes, I agree, that has a significant downside
21:41 mario joined #koha
21:43 NateC joined #koha
21:43 mtompset Yes, but "This provider HAS submitted patches" "This provider HAS signed off patches" is vastly different than actually trying to count them which leads to problems.
21:43 wizzyrea I'm not opposed to displaying less information about a vendor, or possibly changing what we display. A change that would require more maintenance would be for the listed companies to self report every $interval how many clients they have, and provide an actual client site as reference.
21:44 indradg wizzyrea:  btw, Avior technologies has removed therir fb presence which claimed 'the only authorized Koha service provider in eastern India', only google cache exists.
21:45 wizzyrea That was an especially egregious violation of the community compact.
21:45 thd I am all for AGPL 3 but I always thought that we should adopt that adopt that as the general license free from any emotional charge over what happened with PTFS and LibLime.
21:45 drojf i don't know who said that, but if someone claims to be authorized or similar, removing them from the list completely does not sound like a bad idea
21:46 wizzyrea yeah, I actually think we might be almost to the point where we can do that, thd
21:46 indradg wizzyrea: thats what I was discussing offline with gmcharlt the other day... the listing works primarily on 'honor system'
21:47 thd drojf++ Some escalation of warnings followed by a temporary removal for false claims seems to avoid much abuse of any kind of formal requirements otherwise.
21:48 wizzyrea I can't stop the people who write tenders from doing daft things.
21:48 wizzyrea and there isn't really a community entity that can issue something like a "cease and desist"
21:48 wizzyrea aka sending to the tenderer "quit it, that's dumb and the list doesn't mean anythign"
21:48 drojf wahanui should do that
21:48 wahanui drojf: huh?
21:49 cait i thin if it shows up somewhere, always worth pointing out there is no such thing
21:49 cait as authorised
21:49 thd :)
21:50 thd Listing should start from the position of welcoming and trust.
21:51 wizzyrea in principle I agree with you - de-listing is where it gets dodgy
21:51 wizzyrea people get their feelings hurt.
21:52 mtompset if the rules for listing and delisting are clear, screw feelings? :)
21:52 indradg what if a "delisted" vendor sue us individually or severally, saying we caused loss of business and claims damages?
21:52 mtompset cursed lawyers!
21:52 wizzyrea especially if tenderers are requiring listing as a condition
21:52 indradg especially so
21:53 drojf as a lawyer i would now sue mtompset
21:53 indradg :)
21:53 wizzyrea so I think whatever happens, we need to pursue the option that shuts that right down.
21:53 wizzyrea I don't know what it is exactly
21:53 * mtompset goes :P to drojf.
21:53 indradg yeah
21:54 mtompset Isn't the problem a tender-er education one?
21:54 thd wizzyrea: You are right in stating that we do not have an entity empowered to even temporarily remove a listing and running any sort of investigation to determine whether a claim of asserting authorized status would produce more problems than it would help.
21:54 wizzyrea most of the time we won't *know* a tenderer is doing it, as well.
21:55 wizzyrea I suppose we have the circumstantial evidence of a sudden influx of vendors from a certain area that might give us a hint
21:55 mtompset Could not an "official" note be written, so that those that we do know about can be sent it?
21:56 indradg mtompset: basic problem... who are we?
21:56 wizzyrea Inclusion on this directory implies no “official” status whatsoever. Any organization who claims to be an “official” Koha support provider is misrepresenting their relationship to the Koha project.
21:56 wizzyrea ^ that is what we have on the front page of the list
21:56 cait nods
21:56 indradg a Koha Foundation could do it... perhaps... not us
21:56 wizzyrea Restricting your choice of provider only to ones included on the list may unfairly exclude support providers and consultants who provide services for mainstream Koha.
21:56 wizzyrea and this
21:57 thd The whole idea of free software is that anyone including the user is fully qualified to provide service and inexperience is not no bar to making an effort to learning to do good work.
21:57 wizzyrea I mean, we say it right there on the list
21:57 wizzyrea thd++ core value, right there.
21:58 mtompset It almost sounds like indradg needs to bold that part on the front page of all his submissions. ;)
21:58 indradg wizzyrea: if there is a formal email like that on koha m/l, I can prolly bounce that across to every major lis mailing list in India. That should do some tenderer education
21:59 indradg hopefully
21:59 wizzyrea It's on the directory page!
21:59 wizzyrea
21:59 thd drojf: Your suggestion of delisting even only temporary while better than some suggestions is not one that I could support upon reflection aside from pure spammers trying to advertise "bubble bath" or whatever not Koha.
22:00 wizzyrea those don't ever make it anyway.
22:01 wizzyrea I have always wanted to keep a certain purity to the list, that we don't judge on anything other than stated support of the koha community (by placing a link)
22:01 thd wizzyrea: I assume that if you had been fooled by a fake Koha page from a "bubble bath" merchant you would easily remove the listing once someone discovered that all links about Koha which you had previously checked were now used for marketing "bubble bath" and not Koha.
22:02 wizzyrea yep, that is absolutely how it would go down.
22:03 wizzyrea I would consider that "website maintenance"
22:03 indradg wizzyrea: appreciate that thought really... but to paraphrase gmcharlt we are ending up dealing with "sleazy second hand car sales people"
22:03 wizzyrea ah but we also say on that page: This directory and its contents, including but not limited to the links to other sites, purveyors, providers, and vendors of other goods, services, or information, whether for informational purposes or in the form of paid advertisement, are made available by the Koha community on an “as is” basis and without any warranties of any kind as to accuracy, merchantability, or fitness of a vendor for a
22:03 wizzyrea particular service.
22:03 wizzyrea I feel like we're already doing our due diligence here
22:04 wizzyrea and we also say: If you are seeking paid services for Koha, it is ultimately your responsibility to do the research to identify a provider or providers who can meet your needs.
22:04 wizzyrea and give a few criteria.
22:04 wizzyrea I feel that's a lot of handholding already
22:05 wizzyrea we're basically saying "this is only a list. it doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme except that we know these people claim to support the project. You should do your own investigating. Happy to help you find them."
22:05 indradg aargh! chuck it! it's making me sick... i would rather spend my time learning to write better perl
22:06 wizzyrea :/ Not intending to be difficult
22:07 indradg wizzyrea: its not at you... just this whole ridiculousness
22:07 wizzyrea and I'd be happy to be corrected, if I'm making statements that aren't inline with the core Koha community values
22:07 wizzyrea I think it could not hurt to take that text from the directory, and send it to tenderers.
22:07 wizzyrea education is always good.
22:07 thd wizzyrea: I think that existing statements for paid support are already very good.  The best we could probably do for indradg with the listings is to consider some text changes, stronger wording, or even something elsewhere on the site, or pointing to another site to help people better understand free and open source software.
22:08 thd s/best we could do/best we could do without recreating problems from the past/
22:08 wizzyrea in the end, we all exist in a state of coopetition
22:08 mtompset oh, and add L2C2 for indradg while he has you here. :)
22:09 indradg thd: what is happening on the ground is that the ones creating this problem are showcasing this listing as claims to have patches and community contributions
22:10 wizzyrea then yeah, stronger words are probably in order.
22:10 mtompset perhaps even links to bugzilla? :)
22:10 wizzyrea probably add it to the list of criteria that people should check themselves
22:10 wizzyrea no
22:11 wizzyrea actually, we already have that
22:12 pastebot "wizzyrea" at pasted "suggested criteria for selecting a koha vendor" (5 lines) at
22:12 wizzyrea < that is already all here
22:12 wizzyrea now. What I *could* do
22:12 wizzyrea is not put any listings on that landing page.
22:13 wizzyrea so people have to click through it to get to them
22:13 thd indradg: What you might do in your own texts when seeking work is inform people who they can verify contributions which people have made without burdening the community with the hopeless task of trying to measure contributions by some objective metric which can never be fair to the quality of contribution.
22:13 wizzyrea that is an antifeature, I'd rather avoid it
22:13 wizzyrea thd: that is not a bad idea, actually. We could, as a community, suggest more strongly or have a guide to selecting a vendor
22:14 wizzyrea I am not going to write that, though.
22:14 wizzyrea and a guide for Koha for tenderers
22:14 wizzyrea no, I think I have it
22:15 wizzyrea what we need, is when someone is added to the list, is a list of our expectations. Not rules, but our expectations.
22:15 wizzyrea that we send to them
22:15 wizzyrea and we should have available, on our website
22:15 wizzyrea a guide for libraries choosing Koha
22:15 wizzyrea on how to select a vendor.
22:15 wizzyrea does anyone want to volunteer to write these documents?
22:16 thd wizzyrea: We all wrote much about the issue circa 2008.  Much of what I wrote at the time was also privately to kados and others in the vain hope that we could find a way out of the mess and keep everyone involved in the community.
22:17 wizzyrea I'm not sooooo concerned about another ptfs/liblime issue - for one, even though I work for a support company, I don't have any reason to keep anyone off of it, and I don't (except that I miss list mail sometimes)
22:17 thd wizzyrea: I suggest that we do not have any sole author but put some text in git and vote on patches.
22:18 thd wizzyrea: The existing text is a great starting point.
22:19 wizzyrea yeah, I'm thinking of something almost conversational
22:19 wizzyrea as if we, the koha community were sitting with a library having a chat and a coffee.
22:19 wizzyrea and expressing what we expect of ourselves, and what they should expect from anyone who claims to be a part of us
22:20 wizzyrea a statement of core values, certainly, but also how to spot charlatans.
22:20 thd wizzyrea: That form seems fun.  If you create an example that may be another or perhaps better starting point.
22:20 wizzyrea this feels more like an education initiative to me than something that needs a change to the list
22:22 thd wizzyrea: Yes it is an education initiative.  However, such an education initiative should at least be prominently linked from the paid support page.
22:22 wizzyrea yep, that is what I was thinking too.
22:22 drojf good night #koha
22:22 wizzyrea gnite drojf
22:22 thd good night drojf
22:22 mtompset Ingat, drojf
22:23 indradg g'night druthb_away
22:23 indradg oops
22:23 * mtompset laughs.
22:23 mtompset Too slow, just like your request for a listing is. :P
22:23 thd I also have to go and fetch printer ink for my French teacher.
23:10 tcohen joined #koha
23:12 tcohen hi
23:12 mtompset Greetings, tcohen
23:12 tcohen hey mtompset, better?
23:12 mtompset a little. I'm out of breath right now. I just killed a couple trees growing beside our house.
23:15 tcohen hehe
23:15 tcohen so you are recovered, i'm glad to hear that
23:15 eythian hi
23:19 matts_away joined #koha
23:20 tcohen hi eythian
23:21 wizzyrea I have made some changes to the support provider list: 1. I have made the landing page for the directory have no actual listings, in the hope people will read it before clicking through. 2. I have added the full disclaimer as it appears on the landing page appear on every directory page
23:22 wizzyrea 3. I removed the individual listings from the top of page menu, so that people will always go through the landing page.
23:22 eythian 4. I have made the "stop being silly, silly-heads!" text a lot larger.
23:22 wizzyrea well no, I haven't but I could!
23:22 wizzyrea <h1> here I come!
23:23 eythian :D
23:23 wizzyrea indradg ^
23:23 indradg wizzyrea: I'm on that page right now :)
23:24 wizzyrea oh hang on I might need to clear the cache
23:24 wizzyrea there we go
23:25 tcohen wizzyrea++
23:26 hankbank joined #koha
23:26 eythian Breaking news: today is curry thursday, and I finally remembered to order it on time for the first time in weeks!
23:26 wizzyrea \o/
23:27 indradg wizzyrea++
23:27 indradg one question though
23:27 wizzyrea shoot
23:27 wizzyrea (it is entirely possible that I have made a mistake somewhere, I'll be happy to fix whatever you find)
23:27 indradg ' whether the provider expresses support for mainstream Koha.' - does this mean forks (whether the source is made available or no) are excluded?
23:28 wizzyrea that bit isn't up to me
23:28 indradg i know... this is more of a general question
23:28 * tcohen reads the meeting log
23:29 wizzyrea we can't stop people from forking, an optimal koha provider doesn't do that, however.
23:29 wizzyrea and specifically
23:29 wizzyrea doesn't fork it and call it Koha
23:30 eythian forks are somewhat inevitable, but it's hard to say when it's gone too far.
23:30 eythian it's like speciation
23:30 wizzyrea ^^
23:30 wizzyrea evolution is messy :)
23:30 eythian many of our installs aren't stock, because they have their own weirdo customisations, or we've backported fixes/features from later versions.
23:31 eythian (though, we make an effort to upstream everything that makes sense to upstream, obviously.)
23:31 mtompset wizzyrea: <blink></blink> ;)
23:31 * wizzyrea gives mtompset the side eye
23:31 mtompset Blink is so annoying people are forced to read it. ;)
23:32 wizzyrea[…]hloe-side-eye.gif
23:33 wizzyrea it offends my delicate sensibilities
23:33 eythian > This element is unsupported and thus implements the HTMLUnknownElement interface.
23:33 wizzyrea :)
23:33 wizzyrea eythian++
23:33 indradg lol
23:33 eythian[…]TML/Element/blink <-- I do quite like the page for it though
23:33 eythian so many warning boxes
23:34 wizzyrea lulz, but there's a solution!
23:34 mtompset indradg: I would take it to mean that as long as they offer Koha, and not just C-Koha... I mean their own variant, they would get listed. ;)
23:35 eythian from what I can tell, ckoha==koha
23:36 eythian wizzyrea: ping
23:36 indradg there is this BN_IN localized Koha called Konika. about 2 weeks back I asked the project's leads how I could get a copy.[…]/893207200737328/
23:37 indradg no answer, both the people tagged have often approached me for help w.r.t Koha.
23:37 eythian when they invent 48 hour days, I plan to add proper AGPL source downloading support into the packages.
23:38 indradg instead a 3rd party privately tells me.. it is not available, but if YOU need it, i can get it for you
23:38 * mtompset takes a break for supper... or whatever this meal is called now.
23:39 indradg basically that I shouldn't ask too many uncomfy questions eythian
23:40 * indradg thinks it is almost time for the first cup of tea of the day
23:40 eythian yeah, that's legal but pretty shady
23:41 indradg eythian: I was more interested in getting them to work with bgkriegal on the bn_IN l10n... since they had bulk of the stuff already localized
23:41 eythian oh right
23:41 NateC joined #koha
23:41 eythian in that case, get it from them and release it :)
23:42 eythian but it's quite stupid that they won't do it to start with.
23:42 irma joined #koha
23:42 indradg they see the BN_IN UI as the USP of their Konika product
23:43 indradg i just recruited two young librarian volunteers to do the translation, bernando signed them up pronto... we are now targeting BN_IN by 3.22
23:43 eythian ah cool
23:44 eythian but it's dumb that you have to redo work that's already been done.
23:45 indradg its a damn shame really... and Konika is being churned out of one of the top 20 schools in the country
23:46 tcohen but they will have to put their translation inside their a*es which is great
23:48 indradg tcohen: heh! btw... i have a bunch of Passed QA patches sitting... so whenever you have the time or inclination... :)
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23:52 wizzyrea nopetopus is <reply>[…]p2JoAH1qbl202.gif
23:52 wizzyrea nopetopus?
23:52 wahanui[…]-run-away-GIF.gif
23:52 wizzyrea yes that
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