Time Nick Message 23:52 wizzyrea yes that 23:52 wahanui http://reactiongif.org/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/08/GIF-abandon-thread-avoid-do-not-want-no-nope-Nopetopus-octopus-run-away-GIF.gif 23:52 wizzyrea nopetopus? 23:52 wizzyrea nopetopus is <reply> http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m641p2JoAH1qbl202.gif 23:48 indradg tcohen: heh! btw... i have a bunch of Passed QA patches sitting... so whenever you have the time or inclination... :) 23:46 tcohen but they will have to put their translation inside their a*es which is great 23:45 indradg its a damn shame really... and Konika is being churned out of one of the top 20 schools in the country 23:44 eythian but it's dumb that you have to redo work that's already been done. 23:43 eythian ah cool 23:43 indradg i just recruited two young librarian volunteers to do the translation, bernando signed them up pronto... we are now targeting BN_IN by 3.22 23:42 indradg they see the BN_IN UI as the USP of their Konika product 23:42 eythian but it's quite stupid that they won't do it to start with. 23:41 eythian in that case, get it from them and release it :) 23:41 eythian oh right 23:41 indradg eythian: I was more interested in getting them to work with bgkriegal on the bn_IN l10n... since they had bulk of the stuff already localized 23:40 eythian yeah, that's legal but pretty shady 23:40 * indradg thinks it is almost time for the first cup of tea of the day 23:39 indradg basically that I shouldn't ask too many uncomfy questions eythian 23:38 * mtompset takes a break for supper... or whatever this meal is called now. 23:38 indradg instead a 3rd party privately tells me.. it is not available, but if YOU need it, i can get it for you 23:37 eythian when they invent 48 hour days, I plan to add proper AGPL source downloading support into the packages. 23:37 indradg no answer, both the people tagged have often approached me for help w.r.t Koha. 23:36 indradg there is this BN_IN localized Koha called Konika. about 2 weeks back I asked the project's leads how I could get a copy. https://www.facebook.com/groups/861613473896701/permalink/893207200737328/ 23:36 eythian wizzyrea: ping 23:35 eythian from what I can tell, ckoha==koha 23:34 mtompset indradg: I would take it to mean that as long as they offer Koha, and not just C-Koha... I mean their own variant, they would get listed. ;) 23:34 wizzyrea lulz, but there's a solution! 23:33 eythian so many warning boxes 23:33 eythian https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/blink <-- I do quite like the page for it though 23:33 indradg lol 23:33 wizzyrea eythian++ 23:33 wizzyrea :) 23:33 eythian > This element is unsupported and thus implements the HTMLUnknownElement interface. 23:33 wizzyrea it offends my delicate sensibilities 23:32 wizzyrea http://www.gifwave.com/media/713935_meme-chloe-side-eye.gif 23:31 mtompset Blink is so annoying people are forced to read it. ;) 23:31 * wizzyrea gives mtompset the side eye 23:31 mtompset wizzyrea: <blink></blink> ;) 23:31 eythian (though, we make an effort to upstream everything that makes sense to upstream, obviously.) 23:30 eythian many of our installs aren't stock, because they have their own weirdo customisations, or we've backported fixes/features from later versions. 23:30 wizzyrea evolution is messy :) 23:30 wizzyrea ^^ 23:30 eythian it's like speciation 23:30 eythian forks are somewhat inevitable, but it's hard to say when it's gone too far. 23:29 wizzyrea doesn't fork it and call it Koha 23:29 wizzyrea and specifically 23:29 wizzyrea we can't stop people from forking, an optimal koha provider doesn't do that, however. 23:28 * tcohen reads the meeting log 23:28 indradg i know... this is more of a general question 23:28 wizzyrea that bit isn't up to me 23:27 indradg ' whether the provider expresses support for mainstream Koha.' - does this mean forks (whether the source is made available or no) are excluded? 23:27 wizzyrea (it is entirely possible that I have made a mistake somewhere, I'll be happy to fix whatever you find) 23:27 wizzyrea shoot 23:27 indradg one question though 23:27 indradg wizzyrea++ 23:26 wizzyrea \o/ 23:26 eythian Breaking news: today is curry thursday, and I finally remembered to order it on time for the first time in weeks! 23:25 tcohen wizzyrea++ 23:24 wizzyrea there we go 23:24 wizzyrea oh hang on I might need to clear the cache 23:23 indradg wizzyrea: I'm on that page right now :) 23:23 wizzyrea indradg ^ 23:23 eythian :D 23:22 wizzyrea <h1> here I come! 23:22 wizzyrea well no, I haven't but I could! 23:22 eythian 4. I have made the "stop being silly, silly-heads!" text a lot larger. 23:22 wizzyrea 3. I removed the individual listings from the top of page menu, so that people will always go through the landing page. 23:21 wizzyrea I have made some changes to the support provider list: 1. I have made the landing page for the directory have no actual listings, in the hope people will read it before clicking through. 2. I have added the full disclaimer as it appears on the landing page appear on every directory page 23:20 tcohen hi eythian 23:15 eythian hi 23:15 tcohen so you are recovered, i'm glad to hear that 23:15 tcohen hehe 23:12 mtompset a little. I'm out of breath right now. I just killed a couple trees growing beside our house. 23:12 tcohen hey mtompset, better? 23:12 mtompset Greetings, tcohen 23:12 tcohen hi 22:23 thd I also have to go and fetch printer ink for my French teacher. 22:23 mtompset Too slow, just like your request for a listing is. :P 22:23 * mtompset laughs. 22:23 indradg oops 22:23 indradg g'night druthb_away 22:22 mtompset Ingat, drojf 22:22 thd good night drojf 22:22 wizzyrea gnite drojf 22:22 drojf good night #koha 22:22 wizzyrea yep, that is what I was thinking too. 22:22 thd wizzyrea: Yes it is an education initiative. However, such an education initiative should at least be prominently linked from the paid support page. 22:20 wizzyrea this feels more like an education initiative to me than something that needs a change to the list 22:20 thd wizzyrea: That form seems fun. If you create an example that may be another or perhaps better starting point. 22:20 wizzyrea a statement of core values, certainly, but also how to spot charlatans. 22:19 wizzyrea and expressing what we expect of ourselves, and what they should expect from anyone who claims to be a part of us 22:19 wizzyrea as if we, the koha community were sitting with a library having a chat and a coffee. 22:19 wizzyrea yeah, I'm thinking of something almost conversational 22:18 thd wizzyrea: The existing text is a great starting point. 22:17 thd wizzyrea: I suggest that we do not have any sole author but put some text in git and vote on patches. 22:17 wizzyrea I'm not sooooo concerned about another ptfs/liblime issue - for one, even though I work for a support company, I don't have any reason to keep anyone off of it, and I don't (except that I miss list mail sometimes) 22:16 thd wizzyrea: We all wrote much about the issue circa 2008. Much of what I wrote at the time was also privately to kados and others in the vain hope that we could find a way out of the mess and keep everyone involved in the community. 22:15 wizzyrea does anyone want to volunteer to write these documents? 22:15 wizzyrea on how to select a vendor. 22:15 wizzyrea a guide for libraries choosing Koha 22:15 wizzyrea and we should have available, on our website 22:15 wizzyrea that we send to them 22:15 wizzyrea what we need, is when someone is added to the list, is a list of our expectations. Not rules, but our expectations. 22:14 wizzyrea no, I think I have it 22:14 wizzyrea and a guide for Koha for tenderers 22:14 wizzyrea I am not going to write that, though. 22:13 wizzyrea thd: that is not a bad idea, actually. We could, as a community, suggest more strongly or have a guide to selecting a vendor 22:13 wizzyrea that is an antifeature, I'd rather avoid it 22:13 thd indradg: What you might do in your own texts when seeking work is inform people who they can verify contributions which people have made without burdening the community with the hopeless task of trying to measure contributions by some objective metric which can never be fair to the quality of contribution. 22:13 wizzyrea so people have to click through it to get to them 22:12 wizzyrea is not put any listings on that landing page. 22:12 wizzyrea now. What I *could* do 22:12 wizzyrea http://koha-community.org/support/paid-support/ < that is already all here 22:12 pastebot "wizzyrea" at 127.0.0.1 pasted "suggested criteria for selecting a koha vendor" (5 lines) at http://paste.koha-community.org/141 22:11 wizzyrea actually, we already have that 22:10 wizzyrea no 22:10 wizzyrea probably add it to the list of criteria that people should check themselves 22:10 mtompset perhaps even links to bugzilla? :) 22:10 wizzyrea then yeah, stronger words are probably in order. 22:09 indradg thd: what is happening on the ground is that the ones creating this problem are showcasing this listing as claims to have patches and community contributions 22:08 mtompset oh, and add L2C2 for indradg while he has you here. :) 22:08 wizzyrea in the end, we all exist in a state of coopetition 22:08 thd s/best we could do/best we could do without recreating problems from the past/ 22:07 thd wizzyrea: I think that existing statements for paid support are already very good. The best we could probably do for indradg with the listings is to consider some text changes, stronger wording, or even something elsewhere on the site, or pointing to another site to help people better understand free and open source software. 22:07 wizzyrea education is always good. 22:07 wizzyrea I think it could not hurt to take that text from the directory, and send it to tenderers. 22:07 wizzyrea and I'd be happy to be corrected, if I'm making statements that aren't inline with the core Koha community values 22:07 indradg wizzyrea: its not at you... just this whole ridiculousness 22:06 wizzyrea :/ Not intending to be difficult 22:05 indradg aargh! chuck it! it's making me sick... i would rather spend my time learning to write better perl 22:05 wizzyrea we're basically saying "this is only a list. it doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme except that we know these people claim to support the project. You should do your own investigating. Happy to help you find them." 22:04 wizzyrea I feel that's a lot of handholding already 22:04 wizzyrea and give a few criteria. 22:04 wizzyrea and we also say: If you are seeking paid services for Koha, it is ultimately your responsibility to do the research to identify a provider or providers who can meet your needs. 22:03 wizzyrea I feel like we're already doing our due diligence here 22:03 wizzyrea particular service. 22:03 wizzyrea ah but we also say on that page: This directory and its contents, including but not limited to the links to other sites, purveyors, providers, and vendors of other goods, services, or information, whether for informational purposes or in the form of paid advertisement, are made available by the Koha community on an “as is†basis and without any warranties of any kind as to accuracy, merchantability, or fitness of a vendor for a 22:03 indradg wizzyrea: appreciate that thought really... but to paraphrase gmcharlt we are ending up dealing with "sleazy second hand car sales people" 22:03 wizzyrea I would consider that "website maintenance" 22:02 wizzyrea yep, that is absolutely how it would go down. 22:01 thd wizzyrea: I assume that if you had been fooled by a fake Koha page from a "bubble bath" merchant you would easily remove the listing once someone discovered that all links about Koha which you had previously checked were now used for marketing "bubble bath" and not Koha. 22:01 wizzyrea I have always wanted to keep a certain purity to the list, that we don't judge on anything other than stated support of the koha community (by placing a link) 22:00 wizzyrea those don't ever make it anyway. 21:59 thd drojf: Your suggestion of delisting even only temporary while better than some suggestions is not one that I could support upon reflection aside from pure spammers trying to advertise "bubble bath" or whatever not Koha. 21:59 wizzyrea http://koha-community.org/support/paid-support/ 21:59 wizzyrea It's on the directory page! 21:59 indradg hopefully 21:58 indradg wizzyrea: if there is a formal email like that on koha m/l, I can prolly bounce that across to every major lis mailing list in India. That should do some tenderer education 21:58 mtompset It almost sounds like indradg needs to bold that part on the front page of all his submissions. ;) 21:57 wizzyrea thd++ core value, right there. 21:57 wizzyrea I mean, we say it right there on the list 21:57 thd The whole idea of free software is that anyone including the user is fully qualified to provide service and inexperience is not no bar to making an effort to learning to do good work. 21:56 wizzyrea and this 21:56 wizzyrea Restricting your choice of provider only to ones included on the list may unfairly exclude support providers and consultants who provide services for mainstream Koha. 21:56 indradg a Koha Foundation could do it... perhaps... not us 21:56 cait nods 21:56 wizzyrea ^ that is what we have on the front page of the list 21:56 wizzyrea Inclusion on this directory implies no “official†status whatsoever. Any organization who claims to be an “official†Koha support provider is misrepresenting their relationship to the Koha project. 21:56 indradg mtompset: basic problem... who are we? 21:55 mtompset Could not an "official" note be written, so that those that we do know about can be sent it? 21:55 wizzyrea I suppose we have the circumstantial evidence of a sudden influx of vendors from a certain area that might give us a hint 21:54 wizzyrea most of the time we won't *know* a tenderer is doing it, as well. 21:54 thd wizzyrea: You are right in stating that we do not have an entity empowered to even temporarily remove a listing and running any sort of investigation to determine whether a claim of asserting authorized status would produce more problems than it would help. 21:54 mtompset Isn't the problem a tender-er education one? 21:53 indradg yeah 21:53 * mtompset goes :P to drojf. 21:53 wizzyrea I don't know what it is exactly 21:53 wizzyrea so I think whatever happens, we need to pursue the option that shuts that right down. 21:53 indradg :) 21:53 drojf as a lawyer i would now sue mtompset 21:52 indradg especially so 21:52 wizzyrea especially if tenderers are requiring listing as a condition 21:52 mtompset cursed lawyers! 21:52 indradg what if a "delisted" vendor sue us individually or severally, saying we caused loss of business and claims damages? 21:52 mtompset if the rules for listing and delisting are clear, screw feelings? :) 21:51 wizzyrea people get their feelings hurt. 21:51 wizzyrea in principle I agree with you - de-listing is where it gets dodgy 21:50 thd Listing should start from the position of welcoming and trust. 21:49 thd :) 21:49 cait as authorised 21:49 cait i thin if it shows up somewhere, always worth pointing out there is no such thing 21:48 wahanui drojf: huh? 21:48 drojf wahanui should do that 21:48 wizzyrea aka sending to the tenderer "quit it, that's dumb and the list doesn't mean anythign" 21:48 wizzyrea and there isn't really a community entity that can issue something like a "cease and desist" 21:48 wizzyrea I can't stop the people who write tenders from doing daft things. 21:47 thd drojf++ Some escalation of warnings followed by a temporary removal for false claims seems to avoid much abuse of any kind of formal requirements otherwise. 21:46 indradg wizzyrea: thats what I was discussing offline with gmcharlt the other day... the listing works primarily on 'honor system' 21:46 wizzyrea yeah, I actually think we might be almost to the point where we can do that, thd 21:45 drojf i don't know who said that, but if someone claims to be authorized or similar, removing them from the list completely does not sound like a bad idea 21:45 thd I am all for AGPL 3 but I always thought that we should adopt that adopt that as the general license free from any emotional charge over what happened with PTFS and LibLime. 21:45 wizzyrea That was an especially egregious violation of the community compact. 21:44 indradg wizzyrea: btw, Avior technologies has removed therir fb presence which claimed 'the only authorized Koha service provider in eastern India', only google cache exists. 21:43 wizzyrea I'm not opposed to displaying less information about a vendor, or possibly changing what we display. A change that would require more maintenance would be for the listed companies to self report every $interval how many clients they have, and provide an actual client site as reference. 21:43 mtompset Yes, but "This provider HAS submitted patches" "This provider HAS signed off patches" is vastly different than actually trying to count them which leads to problems. 21:41 indradg thd: yes, I agree, that has a significant downside 21:41 wizzyrea because we are not, we do not. 21:41 wizzyrea do vetting of the vendors they authorise 21:41 wizzyrea some of them, because they are backed by a big company 21:41 wizzyrea to maintain* 21:40 wizzyrea it is good, and proper, and lots of projects do, maintain a list of this sort 21:40 wizzyrea I tend to agree with thd 21:40 wizzyrea I probably wouldn't be opposed to limiting the data that is provided 21:40 thd wizzyrea, indradg: I think that the suggestions for 'meritocratic' metrics open too many problems and would be very difficult to distinguish from those which kados proposed from LibLime in 2008. kados had business competition motives which I do not suggest NateC are necessarily motivating the suggestion from NateC. 21:40 mtompset But we can change the list to confer more or less value. 21:40 indradg i've a selfish interest in AGPL.. there is a patch I've written, can't commit it directly as the js lib is AGPL 21:39 wizzyrea but I can't stop people from doing that 21:39 wizzyrea If people are going to look at the list, and say "this confers some meaning on a vendor" - that belief is wrong. 21:39 drojf at least not the good ones :P 21:39 drojf agpl would not hurt anyway 21:38 cait we also did that for one library... they wanted a lot of things hidden in staff 21:38 cait yeah... it could be that#s true 21:38 wizzyrea although they claim in a later email that the code isn't modified 21:38 cait but if it's just css/jquery in the prefs that probably wouldn't change much 21:37 cait i think wizzyrea means changing the license so that they have to provide the code 21:37 wizzyrea AGPL is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affero_General_Public_License 21:37 wahanui indradg: I forgot link 21:37 indradg wahanui: forget link 21:37 wahanui somebody said Link was broken. Also, we don't know what tools you're using to create the marc, but there is probably an option in that tool. 21:37 mtompset Link? 21:37 mtompset AGPL? 21:36 wizzyrea I'm going to lob the grenade that Koha really should be AGPL, to allow for that sort of thing better. 21:36 wizzyrea I saw that 21:36 indradg wizzyrea, thd have a look at this - http://ckoha.in/documents/CKoha_Intro.pdf, they requested for listing today... sounds like an Indian LL 21:36 wizzyrea well, the things we have tried, such as putting an explicit disclaimer on the list, and more thoroughly checking over submissions haven't stopped or even touched the behaviour. 21:35 thd ? 21:35 thd wizzyrea: Can you think of anything which helps reduce the problem which indradg has had in any way without reintroducing the problems of 2008. 21:35 wizzyrea interpersonal drama. I like theatre fine. 21:34 wizzyrea it almost always entails some modicum of drama from somewhere, and I really am not a fan of drama 21:34 cait :) 21:33 wizzyrea I do swear when requests come in, that's true. I am also happy to maintain it, and happy to hand it over. I don't have a dog in that hunt. 21:33 wizzyrea I remember 2008, it was unpleasant and I hope we learned from it 21:32 thd wizzyrea: Oy indeed. 21:31 * wizzyrea looks at the backscroll. Oy. 21:29 thd indradg: Do you have a thought about how to make the vendor list more useful without leading to the problem we had in which the LibLime of circa 2008 used community rules to exclude PTFS, a company new to Koha at the time? 21:28 indradg cait: you are right, koha-translate does have a --remove option 21:27 cait yep, just not working in an ungitified dev install 21:27 wnickc http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Installation_of_additional_languages_for_OPAC_and_INTRANET_staff_client#Removing_a_Language_that_was_Accidentally_Installed 21:27 wnickc according to wiki 21:27 wnickc $ koha-translate --remove <language-code> 21:27 wnickc If you are on a (3.12 or newer) packages install, you can just run: 21:27 cait indradg: i think there is a different beween the normal translate and the packages commands 21:26 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14252 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, indradg, Passed QA , Make the OPAC language switcher available in the masthead navbar, footer, or both. 21:26 indradg I did after working on bug 14252 21:25 cait who goes to look it up? heh 21:25 mtompset I don't think it does. 21:25 cait i thought so too 21:25 cdickinson I could have sworn it did 21:25 cait i think the pakcages might have one 21:25 cdickinson doesn't it have one? 21:24 indradg koha-translate needs an --uninstall option 21:21 cait it's all in the same spots... :) 21:21 cait heh 21:19 wnickc I had to keep a second koha open for reference to find my way around with DE 21:18 wnickc A tiny bit of Cezch, but didn't get far with that 21:18 cait you just helped with translation :) 21:18 wnickc make that :-( 21:18 cait :) 21:18 wnickc just in testing, I don't know any oter languages to help with real translation :-) 21:17 wnickc np, had been meaning to actually try translation 21:17 cait wnickc++ thx! 21:16 thd indradge: Most of what he is giving up is out of date technical literature but requires much time to sort through the sheer volume of it. 21:15 indradg thats a shame! 21:15 thd indradg: As I had first seen in about 23 years ago, my friend has the most marvellous collection of books I have seen in a private collection. I am trying to ensure that he gives up what he does not want and keeps what does. 21:12 thd indradg: I expect to go back to spending much time in August on the wiki. 21:12 indradg ok 21:11 thd indradg: He goes back to court in a week. I expect to also spend most of my time in July helping him if the court allows on the return to court date next Wed. 21:11 indradg thd: give me a holler when you need / want me to do something 21:09 thd indradg: I have promised the lawyer for the court and the landlord to help my friend fix the issue. 21:09 indradg the french! only the french! :D 21:08 thd indradg: I have a friend who is in trouble for having too many documents in his apartment to provide his own library beyond what some may consider the acceptable use of the space. 21:07 indradg no problem 21:07 thd indradg: My time has suddenly been taken for an extended but temporary period to help a friend threatened with eviction. 21:06 thd ... for testing extensions, migration, and other big changes. 21:06 indradg let me know when things are ready or if need any help to test things or something 21:05 indradg thd++ 21:05 thd indradg: I wanted to let you know that while I was started to set up a server for testing the wiki ... 21:04 indradg thanks cait 21:04 indradg yeah... its 2:34 AM... luckily I dont sleep much 21:04 thd I seemed to have missed the time for the meeting by an hour. 21:03 indradg thd: yes 21:03 thd indradg: Are you still here? 21:00 thd Does anyone know why individual ports fail on a switch? 20:59 bgkriegel cait++ 20:59 bgkriegel cai++ 20:59 wnickc cait++ 20:59 slef thanks for managing cait 20:59 drojf cait++ 20:59 thd #info, Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City - Help my swiitch ports are failing!\ 20:59 talljoy_DND cait++ 20:59 talljoy_DND thanks for chairing cait! 20:58 cait thx all for attending 20:58 huginn Log: http://meetings.koha-community.org/2015/general_irc_meeting___10_june_2015.2015-06-10-20.03.log.html 20:58 huginn Minutes (text): http://meetings.koha-community.org/2015/general_irc_meeting___10_june_2015.2015-06-10-20.03.txt 20:58 huginn Minutes: http://meetings.koha-community.org/2015/general_irc_meeting___10_june_2015.2015-06-10-20.03.html 20:58 huginn Meeting ended Wed Jun 10 20:58:41 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) 20:58 cait #endmeeting 20:58 cait #agreed next meeting will be held at June 8th, 10 UTC 20:58 talljoy_DND +1 20:58 bgkriegel +1 20:58 cait ok, any veto? 20:57 wahanui i heard 10 utc was a good time, but is very early on east coast USA 20:57 drojf 10 utc? 20:57 cait which is the next time? drojf? 20:57 cait July... 8th? 20:56 cait ok, so monthly 20:55 * drojf is easily confused by everything today 20:55 indradg monthly is fine 20:54 drojf i mean why have 2 or 3 instead of 4 this time? 20:54 drojf why? 20:54 cait any preferences? 20:53 cait we could maybe go for 2 or 3 weeks this time? 20:52 cait so normally we have a monthly cycle 20:52 cait #topic Set time and date of the next General IRC Meeting 20:50 cait #info there were no actions - so all got done 20:50 cait #topic Actions from last meeting 20:49 talljoy_DND that felt a little rude slef 20:49 NateC self there is a difference between not listening and not paying attention, I was listening :) 20:48 cait give me a moment to look up the points for the next topic 20:48 cait (22:42:00)? 20:48 cait heh 20:47 slef cait: can you remember where you last had Teejay? 20:47 cait we lost Teejay 20:47 slef (of the facebook example) 20:47 cait oh no 20:47 slef points 1, 2, 6 and 7 were also junk 20:47 cait #topic KohaCon15 20:47 mtompset true. 20:47 slef I think indradg is asking us to solve a social problem with a technical solution. Buyers can (and often do IME) put random junk in tenders. 20:46 indradg ok 20:46 slef ok 20:46 cait are we ok to put this on the agenda for next time? 20:46 slef NateC is not listening, missing one of the points of having that listing. 20:46 cait fixing typos in the dev comments... :) 20:46 cait might make things even more complicate 20:46 cait i think we kept it simple to make it easy to verify 20:46 NateC we can do it for individuals too 20:46 drojf it may create a new genre of development. spam patches with the purpose of being listed :P 20:46 NateC this is a meritocracy so those who deserve merit are recognized 20:45 bgkriegel NateC: not bad idea 20:45 NateC just brainstorming here.. 20:44 cait we kid of have that with the dashboard - but i think also need a place separate with contact information 20:44 NateC or "the community thanks the following vendors for their contributions" page 20:44 drojf that sounds reasonable to me. its what i tell people to ask providers about anyway 20:44 slef NateC: that also removes the incentive for them to link back to koha-community.org, doesn't it? 20:44 NateC or something like that 20:44 NateC a karma page 20:44 mtompset Oooo... I like that idea, NateC. 20:44 NateC make it an incentive 20:44 NateC either via signoffs or testing or devs etc... 20:43 cait #info discussion about the presentation of the vendor list to be continued at next meeting 20:43 NateC another option is to get rid of the list and have another list that highlights companies who are regular contributors to the community 20:42 cait NateC++ yeah, that's how i feel about it too - but i see the problems 20:42 NateC so in one way or another, the availability of options should be showcased 20:42 cait not so nice sorting options then, but it will be 'less official' 20:42 NateC I think the listing is useful as proof that the community is broad and that libraries don't need to worry about vendor lockin 20:42 cait maybe one idea: move it to the wiki 20:42 slef anyone know when wizzyrea will be online next? I think we should talk to her first 20:42 Teejay Had some difficulty with the Internet 20:41 mtompset Same problem on the Wiki. 20:41 mtompset http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Category:Support_Companies 20:41 Teejay Thank you 20:41 cait yes 20:41 slef cait: about the listings? 20:40 cait would someone volunteer to email the mailing list asking for ideas and volunteers? 20:40 cait yep in a moment 20:40 mtompset Yes. 20:40 rangi now Teejay is here, we could revisit kohacon15 maybe? 20:40 slef http://irc.koha-community.org/koha/2011-07-12#i_711907 20:39 cait with someone mailing the mailing list? 20:39 rangi i hear her swearing everytime the topic comes up 20:39 cait and then gather some ideas to vote decideon on the wiki for the next meeting? 20:39 rangi i know she does 20:39 wahanui bidet, Teejay 20:39 Teejay Hello 20:39 rangi hi Teejay :) 20:39 cait maybe a first thing we shoudl do is ask wizzyrea if she wants to get rid of doing it 20:39 rangi cait: it does, if we are going to take action, like remove listings 20:39 slef oh yeah, back in 2011 20:39 nengard Have a lit of providers - even unofficial - is useful to those who find the Koha page - then if theyr'e scared to do it alone they can find someone local easily 20:38 cait hi Teejay 20:38 Teejay #info Tunji Adepeju Projektlink Konsult Limited Nigeria 20:38 nengard I think it sounds like we need a few things: #1 a new title (not official) #2 A description #3 someone else to maintain the list 20:38 cait i am not sure if working at a support provider has something to do with it 20:38 drojf the only thing i tell people is to ask the support companies they consider working with about their involvement in the community. 20:38 slef rangi: errr have I mentioned my peer certification idea here before? 20:38 indradg heh rangi :) 20:38 slef rangi: indeed. When wizzyrea started doing the task, she wasn't working at a support provider. We probably need new people to do it. 20:38 rangi ive dealt with enough lawyers through koha to last a lifetime 20:37 rangi im not opening myself up to lawsuits for taking action against other support providers 20:37 slef rangi: I know it's a sucky job. I've kept listings on various sites before. 20:37 indradg what is happening is that while applying for listing, the pages are clean and sweet... once listed, the text changes 20:37 rangi specially as a support provider 20:36 rangi bags not having anything to do with that 20:36 rangi slef: yeah policing .. that will make the job even better 20:36 slef s/listing// 20:36 rangi that is the problem, people think its actually a useful list, when all it is a list anyone can get on, that we don't check up on, and is marketed as being an official list 20:36 indradg drojf: I never thought being listed was a criteria. 20:36 slef How about, if you are caught claiming to be an authorized or registered listing provider, we boot you off the list for a year? 20:35 rangi its not too lazy, its being on the site confers some kinda officialness which is crap 20:35 slef I also think we should update the listing requirements 20:35 drojf ok. i understand the point of it being a bad job. i do not get the "i am too lazy to get listed, it has to go" part? 20:35 indradg rangi asked about ckoha source earlier in the day 20:34 rangi so the people who want to keep it, one or a few of them should email wizzyrea to ask how they can help 20:34 cait or both 20:34 indradg that says its own story 20:34 cait maybe we could share it - or an autorespond to ask on the list 20:34 indradg and the lowest ratio in patches 20:34 rangi because its a bs job 20:34 indradg India has the largest number of listed providers on that list 20:34 rangi i reckon someone else should volunteer to maintain it 20:33 slef remember what part of the point of the listing requirements was: to get lots of good library sites pointing to the community site as the recognised home of koha 20:33 rangi you should see all the offlist mail wizzyrea gets too 20:33 indradg cait: laziness more than anything. I keep getting work via referrals 20:33 drojf hi5 cait 20:33 drojf indradg: maybe that is a stupid question for some reason, but why are you not listed? 20:33 cait indradg: why are you not listed? sorry, but kinda asking the obvious question i guess :) 20:33 slef indradg: and also people will try to make their own astroturf sites beat koha-community.org in search results, like before 20:32 cait i'd be sad to see it gone 20:32 indradg drojf: I'm not listed. A tender says I must be a registered Koha support provider listed on koha-community.org 20:32 nengard it's a useful tool 20:32 mtompset drojf: If a person isn't listed, they aren't considered an authorized provider. 20:32 nengard I'd love a way that didn't cause stress for wizzyrea - but keep it - lots of open source software projects have a page of support providers 20:32 cait it's still a useful resource to others... not only a dark side to it 20:32 drojf how is the list "weaponized"? i don't understand what is the problem 20:32 mtompset Which, by the way, we also could extend this problem into the Wiki. 20:31 rangi the amount of stress it causes wizzyrea, id vote removing it 20:31 slef indradg: and then everyone will post whatever lies they like on their own websites, like before 20:31 indradg slef: if there is no listing there is no scope for "registered" / "authorised" service providers 20:31 slef it is up to their stakeholders to police them 20:30 slef sadly we can't stop buyers putting in whatever stupid things they want in their qualification criteria 20:30 mtompset And people will not read it. 20:30 cait we could put a more obvious note in the top i think - but you can't force people to read 20:29 indradg so, what can we do? - remove the listing altogether? word it better (little scope for that), c) have the vendors include a boilerplate text 20:29 slef TOR is The Onion Router 20:29 cait indradg: what do you suggest? 20:29 cait it's sad to hear it - I often point people to that page when they are looking for options 20:28 indradg and the listing is being, at the lack of a better word "weaponized" 20:28 slef #info MJ Ray 20:28 indradg but India is one of the places which is seeing a very fast uptake/adoption of Koha 20:27 indradg cait: so here is the deal. as a community we can't perhaps go policing the providers. 20:27 indradg since the listing is maintained between wizzyrea and gmcharlt as volunteers 20:26 indradg rangi has been aware of these concerns as is wizzyrea 20:26 indradg for instance L2C2 does not qualify to bid 20:26 cait #link https://galencharlton.com/blog/2015/02/ogres-hippogriffs-and-authorized-koha-service-providers/ 20:26 indradg a major university in India asking for registered vendors 20:25 cait #link http://koha-community.org/clarification-regarding-the-list-of-paid-support-companies/ 20:25 indradg and if you are on facebook, you can see here https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153071477269442&set=a.99052774441.88671.573989441&type=1&theater 20:25 indradg in Feb 2015, gmcharlt posted this on his blog, based on an actual violation https://galencharlton.com/blog/2015/02/ogres-hippogriffs-and-authorized-koha-service-providers/ 20:25 indradg as a clarification 20:24 indradg this was added in May 2014 - http://koha-community.org/clarification-regarding-the-list-of-paid-support-companies/ 20:24 indradg being listed on it is being used by both vendors as well as users floating RFPs that the bidder must be a registered service provider or authorized service provider 20:24 * mtompset cringes in fear over the heat that will be generated. 20:23 indradg yeah.. i would like to discuss about the listed provider listing on the site 20:23 wahanui indradg is the one who told me. 20:23 cait indradg? 20:23 nengard I love Koha :) 20:22 cait #topic Misc 20:22 cait ok, moving on 20:22 JesseM +1 20:21 cait heh thx wahanui 20:21 wahanui anything is possible with enough development work :) 20:21 cait anything? 20:20 cait #action all please read the Terms of reference and ask questions on the mailing list or leave comments on the wiki 20:20 cait which i hereby do :) 20:20 indradg +1 20:20 cait I have agreed with Bob and Brendan that I will ask for people to comment on the mailing list or the wiki 20:19 NateC moving into a new house 20:19 NateC Brendan is not in today 20:18 cait is someone from the fundraising committee here? 20:18 cait #info TOR = Terms of Reference posted for discussion 20:18 cait #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Fundraising 20:18 cait Bob posted the TOR 2 days ago, they can be found here: 20:18 cait #topic Next steps in Fundraising 20:17 cait ok, moving on 20:17 nengard Philippines is great too 20:17 * cait suggests harassing drojf :P 20:17 rangi im just waiting to hear back from my bosses if they will cover the airfare to nigeria ill be going to kohacon15 20:16 cait #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaCon16_Proposals 20:16 JesseM :) 20:16 cait heh 20:16 nengard cait I don't see Germany there??!! 20:16 nengard http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/KohaCon16_Proposals 20:16 JesseM http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/Category:KohaCon16 20:16 mtompset YAY, Philippines! 20:16 cait can someoneget the link for me? 20:15 cait #bids for KohaCon16 are still open - please add your proposal if you are interested in hosting! 20:15 NateC heh 20:15 rangi doesnt look like it 20:14 cait is someone from kohacon15 organizing team around tonight? 20:14 nengard got it 20:14 cait it's not visible, because it's security 20:14 cait yes 20:14 nengard is that the right bug number? 20:14 cait #info bug 14360 to be included into the next releases (security fix) 20:13 rangi its passed qa 20:13 rangi yup 20:13 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14360 is not accessible. 20:13 nengard bug 14360 20:13 cait ? 20:13 cait that was the security one 20:12 rangi just that 14360 should get pushed soon, so it can go in all the releases 20:12 cait #topic KohaCon15/16 20:12 cait moving on 20:12 cait ok, anything else about releases before we move on? 20:12 cait #info manual is mainly done for 3.20, help files still to be updated 20:11 nengard but I do believe the manual is mainly done for 3.20 20:11 nengard I'll need to get the help files updated probably before the next release (since I won't do it in the next 5 days) 20:11 cait #info releases are on track - string freeze on 15th, release on 22nd as normal 20:11 rangi steady as she goes, string freeze 15th, release on 22nd as normal 20:10 cait ok, rangi - you are rmaint - any update on releases? :) 20:10 NateC #info Nate Curulla ByWater 20:10 mtompset #info Mark Tompsett 20:10 rangi #info chris cormack, catalyst 20:10 bgkriegel We'll have some people from Chile! 20:10 cait so many fun Koha events! - is he teleporter ready finally? 20:09 cait #info Hackfest in Buenos Aires, Argentina, 2-3 July 20:09 edveal #info Ed Veal ByWater USA 20:09 cait #link http://www.mercyhurst.edu/academics/library/2015-koha-north-american-users-group-conference 20:09 nengard http://www.mercyhurst.edu/academics/library/2015-koha-north-american-users-group-conference 20:09 cait #info Koha North American Users Group meeting in August 20:09 NateC Nate from ByWater is here 20:09 bgkriegel well, hackfest on Buenos Aires 2-3 July 20:09 nengard Koha North American Users Group meeting will be in August 20:08 cait want to add something now? 20:08 cait np 20:08 bgkriegel sorry late 20:08 bgkriegel #info Bernardo Gonzalez Kriegel 20:08 cait #topic Updates on releases 20:07 cait moving on 20:07 cait well i have heard rumours about a koha hackfest in Buenos Aires sometime soon :) 20:06 cait bgkriegel: maybe annoucne your hackfest? 20:06 wnickc #info Nick Clemens, VOKAL Consortium, USA 20:06 cait i am moving on then 20:06 cait that counts 20:06 cait heh ok 20:06 JesseM koha is awesome 20:05 cait any announcements? :) 20:05 cait #topic Announcements 20:05 cait let's move on 20:05 cait doesn't look like a big crowd tonight 20:04 JesseM #info Jesse Maseto, ByWater Solutions, USA 20:04 talljoy_DND #info Joy Nelson, ByWater Solutions 20:03 nengard #info Nicole Engard, ByWater Solutions 20:03 indradg #info Indranil Das Gupta, L2C2 Technologies, IN 20:03 drojf #info Mirko Tietgen, Berlin, Germany 20:03 cait #info Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany 20:03 cait #link http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_meeting_10_June_2015 20:03 cait today's agenda can be found at 20:03 pianohacker #info Jesse Weaver, ByWater Solutions 20:03 cait please introduce yourself with info, following the bot's example 20:03 wahanui #info wahanui, a bot that has become sentient 20:03 cait #topic introductions 20:03 pianohacker oh yar 20:03 huginn The meeting name has been set to 'general_irc_meeting___10_june_2015' 20:03 huginn Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 20:03 huginn Meeting started Wed Jun 10 20:03:00 2015 UTC. The chair is cait. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 20:03 cait #startmeeting General IRC Meeting - 10 June 2015 20:02 huginn indradg: (wunder <US zip code | US/Canada city, state | Foreign city, country>) -- Returns the approximate weather conditions for a given city. 20:02 indradg @wunder 20:01 cait http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/General_IRC_meeting_10_June_2015 20:01 wahanui this one is cool as long as someone *wants* acknowledgement 20:01 cait this one 20:01 cait irc general meeting? 20:01 wahanui i guess meeting is in two days, i thought was tomorrow. plenty of time then 20:01 pianohacker meeting? 20:01 indradg s/al/all 20:00 indradg hi al 20:00 cait so meeting time i guess? 19:54 bgkriegel hola nengard 19:52 cait hi nengard 19:49 nengard and everyone :) 19:49 nengard and cait 19:49 nengard hiya bgkriegel 19:49 bgkriegel hi cait :) 19:49 cait hi bgkriegel :) 19:48 wahanui hey, bgkriegel 19:48 bgkriegel hello 19:13 huginn New commit(s) kohagit: Bug 13437: Replace javascript function parameter in builder <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=39a598c987f875c4f4033844f7b8c7e7ba588132> / Bug 13437: Conversion of marc21 cataloguing plugins to new style <http://git.koha-community.org/gitweb/?p=koha.git;a=commitdiff;h=964fae60eebd4141ce49c3cff46881d3b2896e49> / Bug 13437: Trivial edits on marc21 plugins before conversion <http://git.koha-commun 19:12 talljoy i thought maybe you took a vow of silence 19:12 pianohacker talljoy: fyi I can't talk because the zoom linux client is screwy 19:06 cait sorry to not be able to help more 19:06 POCLD ok, well thank you for trying. =) 19:06 cait oyu will have to contact support/administration 19:05 cait yeah, but there is not much we can do when you can't access the pages :( 19:05 POCLD unfortunatley I'm not the adminsitrator of Koha for the whole library network, only of the IT in this district 19:04 cait you will have to get into contact with someone else then 19:04 POCLD darn =( 19:04 cait then you aremissing the permission to do that 19:04 POCLD I only have 'Upload patron images' 19:03 cait first column left 19:03 cait it's in tools 19:03 POCLD I'm trying to find the notices and slips part 19:03 POCLD yes 19:03 cait you are in the staff interface, right? 19:01 POCLD ok, getting there. It's a very slow pc 18:59 cait trying to figure out why a reserveslip wouldn't print for one library 18:58 talljoy hiya cait! 18:58 cait hi talljoy 18:58 POCLD ok, I'm just remoting into the machine 18:58 cait for the different branches 18:58 cait as you have mulitple libraries, there might be several 18:57 cait well once you are in tools, we are looking for the notice template with the Code RESERVESLIP 18:57 cait ah 18:57 POCLD Yes, Pond Oreille County Library District, in WA. Part of the CIN group, using Koha through Bywater Solutions 18:56 cait where are you form POCLD? 18:56 cait you want to go to tools > notices and slips 18:55 cait POCLD: ok, first let's check the standard things 18:55 POCLD Wow, that was fast! Sadly I don't know the answer to any of those questions. I know it was working, and then 'just stopped'. I'm not aware that we are using any templates, how would I know if it's assigned to the same module? I'm not aware of any Javascript used in the printing. 18:53 cait are you using any javascript for making the printing work more seamlessly? 18:53 cait is it assigned to the same module as the working ones? 18:52 cait do they have a RESERVESLIP template? 18:52 cait POCLD: dd you check the notice templates? 18:52 POCLD Hi. One of our branches suddenly stopped being able to print hold slips back in May. They can still print other slips, so I know the printing itself is ok. I had them try it in Firefox and Chrome, but neither work. When they click on 'Print slip, transfer and confirm' the message disappears, but that's it. Nothing prints, no printer dialog, nothing. Any ideas greatly appreciated. Thanks 18:07 mtompset edveal-afk: What was your question about self-registration? I think I played with it a bit. :) 17:06 edveal is anyone using self-registrion via the opac? I have a question for you… 17:02 mtompset Okay, good... change those two lines, and I'll be happy with that fix. ... NEXT! :) 17:01 khall nope, I imagine I just didn't realize there was already a schema I could have re-used 17:01 khall we should only ever need to grab the schema once per script/sub 17:01 mtompset okay... just checking, to make sure there wasn't any other underlying reason. Actually, the existing $schema you put in later. ;) 17:00 khall mtompset: you are correct, I should have reused the existing $schema variable 16:57 mtompset Does my inquiry make sense? Because I'm trying to do the AutoCommit fix, and if you call Koha::Database->new()->schema, the autocommit isn't off. 16:53 mtompset or is a single $schema = $database->schema(); at the top of the test usable? 16:53 mtompset was there a reason for calling new()->schema like that? 16:53 mtompset and another test with the same call. 16:52 mtompset where you did a Koha::Database->new()->schema 16:52 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=11634 enhancement, P5 - low, ---, kyle, Pushed to Master , Allow renewal of item with unfilled holds if other available items can fill those holds 16:52 mtompset You added at least one test in bug 11634 (commit 3b300146b2ca478472c5305abcc84ca0033b17ff) 16:52 khall afk, brb 16:52 khall sure! 16:51 mtompset Great! I have a question for you about t/db_dependent/Circulation.t 16:51 khall indeed! 16:51 mtompset Are you around, khall? 16:51 huginn mtompset: khall was last seen in #koha 2 hours, 54 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <khall> thanks! 16:51 mtompset @seen khall 16:43 at_irc_oftc_net Also, when I edit an item, how could I change its collection code? 16:42 at_irc_oftc_net I want to add marc tag "952" but cannot find a icon to let me do it 16:41 at_irc_oftc_net I'm adding a new record from "Z-resources" and want to add a new marc tag. But how? 16:18 huginn mtompset: tcohen was last seen in #koha 3 hours, 18 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <tcohen> confetti!" 16:18 mtompset @seen tcohen 16:18 mtompset Greetings, #koha. 15:05 reiveune bye 13:57 khall thanks! 13:56 schnydszch happy birthday khall! 13:33 khall thanks! 13:33 drojf happy birthday khall! 13:27 khall thanks cait! 13:26 fridolin Joubu: cc ^ 13:26 cait oh happy birthday khall! 13:26 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14374 normal, P5 - low, ---, fridolyn.somers, Needs Signoff , dont use mysql_auto_reconnect with BDIx::Connector 13:26 huginn 04Bug http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14375 major, P5 - low, ---, fridolyn.somers, Needs Signoff , DBIx::Connector should be stored in C4::Context instead of dbh 13:26 fridolin see Bug 14375 and Bug 14374 13:26 fridolin FYI we have been working a lot on SIP server and it has show problems on database connection 13:25 fridolin tcohen: good morning 13:09 khall thanks! I'll have to figure out how old I am. I stopped keeping track a few years back ; ) 13:08 fridolin howww, happy birthday khall 13:07 khall thanks magnuse! 13:07 magnuse yeah, happy birthday khall 13:00 khall thanks! 13:00 tcohen confetti!" 13:00 tcohen :-D 13:00 tcohen happy birthday 12:59 wahanui well, confetti is https://31.media.tumblr.com/f53100e15d6190ade350c3d98b0ccd54/tumblr_n5soy8FDMK1tt9lrzo6_250.gif 12:59 tcohen confetti! 12:59 khall what's up? 12:59 tcohen khall: aroud? 12:36 wahanui tcohen is obsessed with automated testing :) 12:36 magnuse tcohen! 12:35 tcohen Joubu! 12:30 DisneyDave Magnuse: Thanks! 12:29 magnuse under "inactive": "Patrons who haven't checked out" 12:29 magnuse DisneyDave: it's on the right hand side of the reports page 12:29 tcohen =D 12:28 DisneyDave Tcohen: GOOD Morning! 12:28 DisneyDave Magnuse:do you have the full URL or how I navigate to it 12:28 tcohen morning! 12:25 DisneyDave Magnuse: Thanks. Let me take a lok 12:25 magnuse DisneyDave: have a look at http://INTRANET/cgi-bin/koha/reports/borrowers_out.pl ? 12:24 kivilahtio_ Viktor: thanks! 12:24 Viktor kivilahtio_ : I'll give a shout when we have something useful to look at. 12:23 magnuse DisneyDave: it sounds kind of familiar... 12:23 Viktor kivilahtio_ : We plan to save not only what have been edited and when but also by who (or from what source) 12:21 Viktor Filed an RFC for "History for MARC records" over at http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/History_for_MARC_records. Will hopefully flesh it out a bit in the coming days. We hope to get some kind of POC up so people can point out what we are (very probably) doing wrong. 12:21 DisneyDave I did not see an existing report but you all are the experts. :) 12:20 DisneyDave If I wanted to get a list of all users who have checked out an item since 10/1/2014, is there an existing report I can run or do I need to write a custom SQL report? 11:41 fridolin hie 10:06 drojf hi #koha 09:44 schnydszch err.. i just put details from notes/description in xslt 09:43 schnydszch haha i just give up :P 09:42 magnuse schnydszch: how did you solve it? css/js? 09:23 schnydszch hi magnuse that was a problem/use case for me many months ago. 09:06 magnuse guess not 09:04 magnuse is it possible to get rid of the descriptions/notes tab in the opac (othen than through css/js)? 09:04 magnuse waving is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWNc8aU3SrI 08:54 cait i haven't seen one with mulitple sql statements so far 08:54 nlegrand cait: :) 08:54 cait nlegrand: i'd just try it :) 08:53 nlegrand magnuse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWNc8aU3SrI 08:53 * nlegrand waves back at magnuse 08:53 nlegrand I've heard Joubou saying we can't add multiple SQL statements in an atomic update. But after a look at updatedatabases.pl and Installer.pm, it's seems possible. Is it good practice to do so (1 atomic update -> 1 SQL statement) ? 08:52 * magnuse waves to nlegrand 08:51 * nlegrand waves also 08:26 * magnuse waves 07:00 alex_a bonjour 06:58 reiveune hello 05:48 indradg kia ora #koha