IRC log for #koha, 2010-09-01

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
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03:17 Amit heya chris
03:21 chris hi Amit
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06:56 kf good morning #koha
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06:58 Ropuch Morning #koha
06:58 kf hi Ropuch :)
07:20 Amit heya kf, Ropuch
07:38 kf hi Amit
07:42 chris wow that was fairly random of the national library
07:52 kf hm?
07:53 chris email to koha-devel, for katipo but to the whole list, i dont think they understand Koha :)
07:53 chris to use to proprietary vendors
08:12 kf ah
08:12 kf perhaps it's an old entry in their address list
08:13 chris hmm cant be that old, we only shifted the lists recently :)
08:17 kf chris++ thx for the reminder mail :)
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08:35 kf chris: pootle seems a bit unhappy: An error has occurred. Thank you for your patience.      database is locked
08:35 kf tried to change my account settings
08:36 chris i officially hate django and pootle
08:36 kf :(
08:36 chris there's probably nothing i can do about that
08:37 kf I get an internal server error when I click on logout
08:37 kf I was not able to deny/accept suggestions and wanted to check my permissions
08:38 kf kartouche seemed more stable, but the search was missing
08:38 chris and it wasnt being developed, and had about 1/10th the number of people using it
08:39 chris i tried restarting it
08:39 chris it might be better now
08:39 kf ok, thx
08:40 kf yep, seems better
08:41 kf yay - can edit suggestions now :)
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10:06 chris quiet tonight
10:19 kf lunch time :)
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11:39 kf hi jwagner :)
11:39 jwagner Hi kf
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12:09 Fred Hello
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12:10 kf hi Fred
12:13 Fred Is someone having a clue about an OPAC displaying no results while in the meantime the staff client works perfectly? (got some lines in error log too about :  HTML::Template::Pro:in TMPL_LOOP at pos 410: PARAM:LOOP:next_loop(0): callback returned null scope)
12:17 kf Fred: which koha version? problem happens for all languages? xslt on?
12:20 Fred xslt off, just trying it in fr
12:21 kf do you have the same problem with english?
12:22 kf I am running in a lot of translation related problems, so this is the first thing I check
12:23 Fred no did not try the english version yet
12:25 Fred no change with english
12:31 kf which koha version?
12:34 Fred
12:35 kf hm 140 is not current
12:36 kf this is not a stable version and not the current HEAD
12:38 Ropuch Hm, back then with 3.0.x turning hidelostitems on worked in some cases
12:40 Fred ok
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12:43 kf someone using patron notification of new issues (serials)?
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12:49 Fred not yet
12:53 Fred i ve two installed and only one got that problem with OPAC, intersting :)
12:53 kf nengard: around?
12:53 nengard yes
12:54 kf i was wondering if you have an example notice for new issues arrived notices
12:54 kf and if it would be a good idea to add one to the sample notices
12:55 nengard I don't ... koha doesn't have that ability yet ... does it?
12:56 kf hm, if you add a notice to the sub you get a link in the opac where you can subscribe to email notifications
12:57 kf so far it looks quite good - but the notice I chose is RLIST
12:57 kf not really what I want it to look like, I will try to invent one
13:01 kf nengard: I will let you know if koha can do it :)
13:01 nengard oh wait you're talking about new issues of serials?
13:02 nengard that's the routing list
13:02 nengard or are you talking about new items in general
13:02 kf new issues of serials
13:02 kf subscribing to email notification via opac
13:12 jcamins_a is now known as jcamins
13:12 jcamins Good morning, #koha
13:12 jcamins Fred: there's something in the manual about searches working in staff but not OPAC.
13:12 jcamins Sadly I can't remember what, or where.
13:12 Fred Hello
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13:13 Fred Oh really? that's great! i will check it right now then, thanks!
13:13 jcamins Wait, I think I remember!
13:13 jcamins OPACSuppress.
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13:15 Fred got it
13:16 Fred wow great! it works perfectly now!
13:17 jcamins If only I could type.
13:17 jcamins But you managed to find it even though I told you the wrong name.
13:18 Fred :)
13:18 Fred thanks a lot for that essential clue
13:24 kf jcamins++ :)
13:26 kf Undefined subroutine &C4::Letters::GetMember called at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/ line 278.  :(
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13:28 jcamins kf: That doesn't sound good. :/
13:29 kf no
13:29 kf still trying to send me an email notification
13:30 kf I get this error now when receiving new issues
13:36 rhcl how's it going?
13:36 kf jwagner: what is curriculum used for? :)
13:36 rhcl oops
13:39 jwagner kf, it's a feature for schools -- the 658 contains curriculum terms, and this adds a search for them.
13:40 jwagner See the LC entry on the 658:[…]oncise/bd658.html
13:40 kf ah
13:40 kf thx :)
13:41 kf we have no school libraries yet, but I they will be happy about it
13:41 jwagner It was one of our school library systems that requested it :-)
13:42 kf is the search option always shown?
13:42 jwagner It's under Advanced Search, More Options
13:43 jwagner Bug 5193 is more specialized
13:43 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=5193 enhancement, P5, ---, jwagner, ASSIGNED, Add specialized auction indexes and search options to Advanced Search
13:44 jcamins jwagner: did you see bug 4480?
13:44 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=4480 normal, P5, ---, gmcharlt, NEW, MARC21 033 tag and Zebra date indexing
13:45 jcamins Specifically, 033 can contain the computer-readable auction date.
13:45 jwagner jcamins, no, I hadn't seen that one.  But our site wanted separate fields for date, auction house, and code
13:45 jcamins Yeah, they'll still need those, but they probably also want the 033. ;)
13:48 kf :)
13:48 kf jwagner++
13:48 jwagner This one is controlled by a syspref because not too many sites will want to work with auction catalogs.
13:49 jcamins Very sensible of them!
13:49 jcamins I don't want to work with auction catalogs, either! ;)
13:51 sekjal what we really need to for the Zebra indexes to be completely user-controllable through the staff client, but that's no small feat
13:51 jcamins That would be amazing.
13:51 kf yes
13:52 sekjal oh, and while we're at it, make Koha support more than just MARC for metadata
13:54 kf there is always a lot of room for improvement
13:55 sekjal I love that there's so much that can be done, but I hate that I don't have enough time to do it all
13:55 sekjal fortunately, it's not just me coding for this project :)
13:55 kf me too :(
13:56 jcamins Does Koha support subdivision authority records?
14:02 kf jcamins: I have no idea what this is :)
14:03 jcamins For example:
14:03 jcamins 600 $aWashington, George[$xCoin collections$vCatalogs]
14:03 jcamins An authority record for the part of the heading that's in brackets.
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14:05 kf hm
14:05 jcamins I haven't tried it yet, but I thought someone might know the answer.
14:05 jcamins I also don't know how I would try it.
14:16 rhcl hey munin, go fetch me bug 4239
14:16 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=4239 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, gmcharlt, NEW, Allow holds on multiple items of selected titles
14:16 kf rhcl: munin does even know marc
14:16 kf @marc 001
14:16 munin kf: The control number assigned by the organization creating, using, or distributing the record. The MARC code for the organization is contained in field 003 (Control Number Identifier). []
14:17 kf @eightball will I be able to configure sendmail?
14:17 munin kf: You're kidding, right?
14:18 jcamins kf: that's why I use postfix.
14:19 kf how easy is it?
14:20 jcamins Easier than sendmail, anyway.
14:20 jcamins Do you know, in ten years I have never managed to get sendmail to work?
14:20 jcamins I still need to set postfix up on my new server, but it wasn't too hard last time I did it.
14:20 kf ok, I will keep it in mind
14:21 kf will ask a coworker to help me tomorrow
14:21 jcamins Exim is supposed to be nice too.
14:21 wizzyrea I prefer postfix
14:40 rhcl I prefer gmail
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15:03 hilongo Hello koha fellows  :)
15:04 hilongo I have a question about search results
15:06 hilongo I noticed that they are not really sorted ... by relevance nor any other criteria
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15:23 nengard hilongo it is sorted by relevance - but it's relevance according to zebra
15:23 nengard it's a magic algorithm that no one has been able to define to me yet ...
15:29 Fred someone told me it s about black magic from Denmark...
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15:30 Braedon ask the blotch. The blotch knows!
15:31 * Braedon realizes this is probably the wrong channel for that reference...
15:32 hilongo hmm.. I see ... that is what I felt after trying it to do what I want  :P
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15:39 hilongo And how about Stopwords?  Cause I don't want zebra to be retrieving records that contain 'of' 'the' etc
15:39 hilongo I see the syspref to ignore them when searching, but only if Zebra is off
15:42 Braedon shouldn't zebra handle that itself?
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15:48 hilongo maybe it does ... I have to deeper test it ...
15:49 Braedon[…]org/msg00546.html
15:51 hilongo BUT .. what have me troubled now is that I have imported the records of a library, and they all apear in the last pages of a search result
15:52 jcamins hilongo: perhaps it's sorting by id?
15:58 wizzyrea but what if you have a book titled "the"
15:58 jcamins Much like "War and Peace" in a large university's next-generation discovery tool, you won't be finding it in the catalog. ;)
15:59 wizzyrea heh heh heh
16:00 hdl hilongo: by default, if no sort correct or error on zebra indexes, then relevancy is recordid
16:02 jcamins wizzyrea: actually, there's a poetry journal from the 70s called "The."
16:02 wizzyrea I know!
16:02 wizzyrea which is why I have come around to the "stopwords are bad" philosophy
16:03 jcamins I never did manage to find it in the NYPL catalog.
16:03 hdl hilongo: lower priorty
16:04 jcamins Of course, Koha doesn't easily provide the ability to do a full-field search, does it?
16:04 hdl But still, I worked on relevancy... And I think it got into 3.2 so maybe you could try and add all the indexes used there. It is in C4/
16:05 hdl jcamins: does an xpath search an easily way  for you ?
16:05 hdl /record/datafield[@tag="123"]/subfield[@code="a"]
16:06 hdl and enable xpath
16:06 jcamins You can use that for searching on the OPAC?
16:07 hdl in the big box : pqf= @attr 1=/record/datafield[@tag="​123"]/subfield[@code="a"] Myvalue
16:07 jcamins Cool!
16:07 hdl will search for Myvalue in 123$a
16:07 jcamins Not the most user-friendly search method ever, but at least now I can do it. :D
16:10 hdl I think it could work
16:10 jcamins I don't need to do the search right now, but it's good to know it's possible.
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16:11 cait hi #koha
16:11 hdl hi cait
16:11 jcamins Hello.
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16:19 hilongo If I set  defaultSortOrder and  defaultSortField in SysPrefs .. shouldn't the idrecord relevancy be omitted?
16:20 hdl mmm no
16:21 cait hi hdl :)
16:21 hilongo Even more ... TO the left of the search results page .. there is a filter that lets you select a Library to see only the records belonging to that one
16:22 hilongo BUT .. it only lists the libraries that are visible on the current search result 'page' ... not all the libraries that have matching records
16:24 hilongo thus... with recently added library... not only their records appear at the last pages, but their library name is not even listed in the Library selector
16:25 wizzyrea hilongo: yep, that's very frustrating for those of us with more than 5 or so libraries
16:25 wizzyrea do you have a branch created for your new library?
16:25 wizzyrea have you actually created the library in koha?
16:26 hilongo Yes .. I have set up branch for the new library
16:27 hilongo if I skip to the last pages I can see the results belonging to it, and the library name is listed in the Filter
16:30 wizzyrea hehehe!
16:30 wizzyrea
16:31 wizzyrea My librarians are awesome
16:32 sekjal oooh, cake pans!
16:32 wizzyrea :D
16:33 wizzyrea I did a lightning round at our Tech day on xtranormal: I sold it by telling my librarians that "you know how you always want to make videos, but you never want to *appear* in the videos? This lets you do that"
16:33 wizzyrea and omg. They loved it.
16:34 wizzyrea someone told me that the library xtranormals were the first ones they'd seen that didn't include cursing. ;0
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17:22 collum wizzyrea: That's cool!
17:22 collum The xtranormals and the cake pans. Both.
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17:59 joetho general meeting less than one hour from now, correct?
18:00 cait yes
18:05 joetho thx
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18:31 joetho T minus fifteen minutes, more or less.
18:44 rafael joined #koha
18:45 slef hi all
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18:46 gmcharlt hello folks
18:46 hdl hi
18:48 Colin evening all
18:48 nengard afternoon
18:48 chris morning
18:48 nengard hehe
18:48 gmcharlt meeting time
18:48 thd-away left #koha
18:48 gmcharlt agenda is at[…]_1_September_2010
18:48 thd-away joined #koha
18:48 gmcharlt and the agenda items are
18:48 gmcharlt Update on Roadmap to 3.2.
18:48 gmcharlt Update on Roadmap to 3.0.
18:48 gmcharlt Update on Roadmap to 3.4.
18:48 gmcharlt Koha Holdings data fields (9xx).
18:48 gmcharlt Follow-up on actions from General IRC Meeting, 11 August 2010.
18:48 gmcharlt Agree times of next meetings.
18:49 chris start with intros?
18:49 gmcharlt indeed
18:49 thd-away is now known as thd
18:49 chris Chris Cormack, Catalyst IT, RM 3.4
18:49 * gmcharlt = Galen Charlton, 3.2RM
18:49 * cait = Katrin Fischer, BSZ, Germany
18:49 * nengard Nicole C. Engard, Doc Manager & ByWater Solutions
18:49 jwagner Jane Wagner, PTFS
18:49 * sekjal Ian Walls, ByWater Solutions
18:49 * hdl Biblibre, RMaint 3.0
18:49 * slef = MJ Ray, extremely overworked co-owner of Koha support
18:49 Colin = Colin Campbell PTFS-Europe
18:49 joetho Joe Tholen SEKLS / Kansas
18:50 * jcamins = Jared Camins-Esakov, consultant
18:50 thd Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York City
18:50 irma joined #koha
18:50 rhcl Greg Lawson, Rolling Hills Consolidated Library, St. Joseph, MO, USA
18:51 gmcharlt thanks
18:51 gmcharlt on to 3.2
18:51 gmcharlt on 8/24 BibLibre submitted a patch for bug 4310
18:51 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=4310 blocker, PATCH-Sent, ---, henridamien, NEW, No Migration for budgets from 3.0 to 3.2
18:51 irma Irma Birchall, CALYX information essentials, Sydney, Australia
18:52 gmcharlt regarding the upgrade of acquisitiosn budgets from 3.0 to 3.2
18:52 rafael rafael antonio, Consultant, Portugal
18:52 gmcharlt Colin: did you happen to have a chance to test that patch and determine if it results in a succesful upgrade of funds?
18:53 Colin No. I'll see what it does.
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18:54 gmcharlt thanks
18:54 gmcharlt at this point bug 4310 is the primary blocker; the result I'm prepared to bump to 3.4
18:54 joetho you mean in the agenda, right?
18:55 gmcharlt joetho: wha?
18:55 gmcharlt no, the classification of the bugs
18:55 * wizzyrea Liz Rea NEKLS
18:56 chris result = rest?
18:56 hdl the rest of bugs ?
18:56 gmcharlt sorry, yes, "rest"
18:56 Nate Nate Curulla: ByWater Solutions (sorry im late)
18:56 hdl So bugs will now be declared in 3.4
18:56 chris id hope some could be fixed for 3.2.1 :) or 3.2.2
18:56 thd 'bump' is almost invariably ambiguous in actual usage
18:56 hdl And cherrypicker onto 3.2 ?
18:57 chris yep
18:57 gmcharlt yep, that would be up to chris_n
18:57 Colin are there any bugs in your queue for 3.2 not yet applied?
18:57 hdl maybe we should ask folks to try and send on 3.2 and 3.4 if 3.2 and 3.4 diverge enough
18:58 hdl Colin: who are you talking to ?
18:58 gmcharlt Chris Nighswonger has been pretty explicity that he will not permit that kind of divergence
18:58 Colin To Galen
18:58 gmcharlt and I hope we all work to hold him to that
18:58 chris lets all try to make it possible for him to do that
18:59 hdl Can you be more explicit in how we could help him ?
18:59 chris dont submit features for 3.2
18:59 hdl Yes...
18:59 gmcharlt Colin: at this point 4310 is my primary concern
19:00 chris everything goes to master, and is backported
19:00 gmcharlt since we're veering into 3.4
19:00 gmcharlt let's go to the next item on the agenda
19:00 * chris_n steps in late
19:00 hdl But sometimes new features helps some bug fixing
19:00 gmcharlt hdl: update on 3.0.x?
19:00 chris and remind him, if he does put features in 3.2 that arent in master, that its a bad idea and please take it out
19:01 hdl I had vacation for 2 weeks.
19:01 * chris_n nails in a few more nails into the "no new features in 3.2.x" lid
19:02 chris chris_n++
19:02 gmcharlt chris_n++
19:02 hdl And little time to package 3.0.7 and now, I would like to ask community if such a release would be really a good thing.
19:02 chris hdl: im not sure it would be
19:02 sekjal but new features that are already in HEAD would be alright to add to 3.2.x?  Am I understanding that correctly?
19:02 gmcharlt sekjal: if they can be cleanly cherry-picked
19:03 cait chris_n++
19:03 nengard hdl i don't see us needing it if 3.2 is around the corner..
19:03 hdl Since imho, 3.2 release shouldnot be coming along with a 3.0 release
19:03 chris hdl++
19:03 gmcharlt and any thing that involves a database update is carefully so that 3.0->3.4 and 3.2->3.4 woudl hvae the same result
19:03 chris that would just be confusing
19:03 slef Basic question: are there any really nasty bugs in 3.0.6?
19:04 hdl well, we still had some.
19:04 slef (I don't remember.  We run git.)
19:04 hdl there are bugs with holdings
19:05 chris hdl: data loss bugs?
19:05 hdl No.
19:05 slef anything blocker or critical?
19:05 hdl But hold notices not being sent.
19:05 thd slef: the nastiest bugs are the ones essentially unreported especially if they are presumed to be features :)
19:05 hdl (which from a librarian pov would be not only critical)
19:06 gmcharlt if a bugfix release of 3.0.7 is warranted and ready to go, I don't have any particular objection to hdl doing it
19:07 gmcharlt not all 3.0.x users are going to want to jump to 3.2.0 instantly anyway
19:07 hdl But is there 3.0.x users ?
19:07 thd gmcharlt makes a good point that users may choose to wait before migrating to 3.2
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19:07 gmcharlt hdl: presumably
19:20 slef There are 3.0.x users who approach for support/upgrades.
19:20 hdl we have some, but most of them are on a git version of 3.0.x
19:20 mib_473wj left #koha
19:20 hdl now
19:20 logbot left #koha
19:20 logbot joined #koha
19:20 Topic for #koha is now Koha, a free integrated library system -  Logged:  Pastes:
19:21 hdl So 3.0.7 on the way
19:21 gmcharlt anyway - I think upshot is that if hdl wants to do a 3.0.7 release, no objections; if he doesn't want to, that would also be fine
19:21 gmcharlt cool
19:21 gmcharlt moving on to next item on agenda
19:21 gmcharlt 3.4 - chris?
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19:22 chris right
19:22 rafael We in PT are now confident on 3.0.6 and would like to still some time with a stable environment
19:22 hdl tx rafael
19:22 chris so id like to open it up to people to start sending in patches for 3.4
19:23 gmcharlt +1
19:23 chris i intend to use a system like this
19:23 chris
19:23 nengard will patches sent to head that haven't made it to 3.2 be considered for 3.4?
19:23 chris yes
19:23 nengard k
19:24 chris i will try to fill that awaiting_qa directory with those :)
19:24 nengard sounds good
19:24 chris i would love for others to apply patches, sign off and resend them too
19:25 hdl would some branches not be more useful for ppl.
19:25 gmcharlt hdl: topic branches?  yes, I would think so
19:25 hdl lik a qa brach ?
19:25 chris there will be branches too
19:25 hdl and ft branches ?
19:25 hdl ok
19:25 hdl good
19:25 chris its just a bunch easier to see a list of patches in a dir
19:25 slef I think we need some tracking.  Looking at chris's link.
19:25 chris than git log
19:25 gmcharlt Colin: are you intend to set up a QA tree?
19:26 Colin That seems  logical. I should probably look at what's been posted the last couple of months and not applied
19:27 hdl chris resending patches on list would rapidly mess all the interest of list, unless we agree on a tag in subject.
19:27 chris hdl: it would be better if people would send them first to someone else to signoff
19:27 hdl say [sign-off] or [tested]
19:27 chris then to the list
19:28 nengard chris who is that someone?
19:28 chris itd be nice to have patches to the list be signed off by at least one other person, if possible
19:28 chris nengard: different people all the time
19:28 nengard the idea being that at least someone else has looked at it? got it
19:28 chris usually there is at least one other person interested in the bug/enhancnement
19:28 jwagner How do people working on things know where/who to send patches to?
19:28 chris they talk
19:29 nengard :)
19:29 hdl hehe jwagner++
19:29 chris attaching the patch to the bug
19:29 chris with a message please apply and signoff
19:29 chris is a good way to do it
19:29 jwagner That was a serious question, by the way.  Are we supposed to go on the listserv every time?
19:29 slef chris: Can you somehow link to the mails on -patches as well as having files in that AutoIndex?
19:29 gmcharlt jwagner: it can be any number of approaches
19:29 nengard chris's answer was serious too i think
19:29 chris jwagner: id expect all ptfs patches to at least have 1 other ptfs person
19:29 gmcharlt formal relationships between entities to test each others patches
19:29 gmcharlt requests on IRC
19:30 gmcharlt on the mailing lists
19:30 sekjal my plan has been to put any specifications to which I'm developing up on the wiki, so folks can provide feedback, criticism, ideas, etc.  then from the traffic on that page I'd have a good idea who's interested
19:30 jwagner Yes, chris and I crossed in midstream
19:30 jwagner His approach sounds feasible.
19:30 chris sekjal: good plan
19:31 slef It would be nice to crossreference the patches mails, the bugs and the release management process, but I'm unsure how best to do that.
19:31 chris at the moment, i sign off robins, he signs off mine at catalyst, i signed off one for wizzy the other day .. more of that would be good
19:31 Colin It would be a good idea where there's a default assignee in bugzilla that you ask them
19:31 gbengaada joined #koha
19:31 chris Colin++
19:32 gmcharlt ok
19:32 hdl sekjal: have been doing but sending a mail on koha-devel list to announce that could also be interesting.
19:32 irma left #koha
19:32 gmcharlt upshot: chris will start accepting patches for 3.4; discussion of sign-offs
19:32 gmcharlt moving in the agenda
19:32 chris slef: bug ids in commit messages helps
19:32 gmcharlt we have
19:32 gmcharlt 4. Koha Holdings data fields (9xx).
19:32 irma joined #koha
19:33 chris ahh this was zeno
19:33 chris who isnt here?
19:33 gmcharlt right
19:33 thd I could comment
19:33 chris do you know what he was asking thd?
19:33 slef thd wrote a conversion guide back for 2.x, so it would be an interesting comment IMO
19:33 hdl I could too.
19:33 thd I remember the question which he posed on the mailing list.
19:33 gmcharlt thd: go for it
19:34 slef I'm looking for a link to the question.  Which list?
19:34 hdl koha-devel and koha iirc
19:34 thd Zeno was asking about standardised use of holdings.
19:35 thd slef: search both koha and koha-devel for 995 in the subject
19:35 hdl To define default 9xx fields for Unimarc setup in alllanguages
19:36 slef[…]s.koha.devel/4775
19:36 slef key point: unimarc "on local fields English and French are not compatible"
19:37 thd I did not have time to give a nuanced answer but the answer which Zeno was given on the list is that it was up to the library to define the links between the Koha MARC holdings field and the items column in the database in an appropriate manner for the particular library
19:37 slef zeno's proposal "We re-write English setup in 9xx fields" so that they are compatible.
19:37 thd There are problems
19:37 gmcharlt I wonder how many English-speaking UNIMARC users there actually are
19:38 slef I think all current clients are MARC21, even some non-English ones, but davi might correct me on that.
19:38 hdl gmcharlt: in fact, UNIMARC english frameworks are installed by default.
19:38 gmcharlt but at least for indexing of item records, there would be a way to make it a non-issue, at least for item fields that are stored in the items table outside of more_subfields_xml
19:38 cait our german libraries are all marc21 too
19:39 thd Recommandation 995 is designed initially to facilitate interlibrary loans and is insufficient as holdings format.
19:39 slef cait++
19:39 gmcharlt and that would be to change the serialization of the item records for indexing purposes
19:39 gmcharlt e.g., wrap bib MARCXML plus items expressed as XML
19:40 gmcharlt and use DOM mode for indexing bibs
19:40 gmcharlt at least in the context of the current Zebra setup
19:40 hdl thd: you can use non standard item subfields.
19:40 thd Fortunately, even the latest version of Recommandation 995 leaves some fields undefined.
19:40 rafael Continental European countries are mainly UNIMARC so to become KOHA universal we need to accept a common framework
19:40 thd hdl: yes. there are gaps in the standard.
19:40 gmcharlt that way, the specific 995, 952, etc. serialization of item records embedded in bib data is less relevant to indexing
19:40 hdl gmcharlt: this would also be quite interesting in order to get items out of biblioitems.marcmxl
19:40 chris s/KOHA/Koha/ :)
19:41 * chris has one of his pet peeves poked
19:41 hdl thd: very little gaps.
19:41 gmcharlt of course, as rafael implies, there would be data interchange reasons for UNIMARC users to achieve more consitency of 995 field usage
19:41 thd gmcharlt could you explain the XML wrapping idea more fully?
19:41 hdl
19:42 chris so i think we might be getting off topic a bit
19:42 chris since this wont be done for 3.2
19:42 hdl definitely.
19:42 hdl But still, for 3.4
19:42 chris_n sounds like a list discussion to me
19:42 chris maybe move it to an rfc for 3.4
19:43 hdl getting out items from biblioitems should be given a try.
19:43 chris or an rfc and a list discussion :)
19:43 pastebot "gmcharlt" at pasted "for thd - how a bib record could be sent to Zebra for indexing" (8 lines) at
19:43 slef chris: but PTFS say it's KOHA and they own us, right?
19:43 * slef runs
19:44 * Braedon hides slef
19:44 cait not sure this was really necessary
19:44 gmcharlt chris: hdl: thd: yep, ultimately an RFC or list discussion
19:44 thd if the discussion scope is limited to 3.2 then I see no significant problem with Zeno's proposal other than French libraries for which 995 is relevant have a different mapping.
19:45 gmcharlt thd: if nobody is truly using the English UNIMARC setup, updating it to be a copy of the French 995 mapping (with different labels, of course), would be simple
19:46 gmcharlt depends, I guess, on the starting point for the libraries that rafael mentioned
19:47 thd The more interesting issue for me is the one brought up by ebegin about lack of consistency for numeric statuses in actual usage despite some values being defined in the code.
19:47 thd I think that more interesting issue is also for 3.4
19:47 davi slef, you are right. All are MARC21
19:48 rafael which  countries are using French mapping or English mapping ?
19:48 gmcharlt thd: that can only go so far - common values for some statuses is achievable, but at some point there will be additional ones that a library might add to represent purely local considerations
19:49 slef Can we run a call for people to comment on if they use English UNIMARC?  Announce it to koha and code4lib and maybe others.
19:49 thd English UNIMARC was created as noted in the file comment from some unchecked work of a librarian where I only tried to follow the standard for Recommandation 995 instead of French Koha use.
19:49 hdl koha-infos
19:49 slef rafael: do you have English UNIMARC mappings?
19:49 slef davi: thanks for the info
19:49 gmcharlt slef: zeno (or whoever) could certainly put on a blog post on to try to solict more feedback
19:49 thd As noted in the comments I do not consider unchecked work safe for actual use.
19:50 thd I know there are important things missing from the English framework but only added the most obvious.
19:50 Colin In a few years of experience I've only encountered Unimarc in Francophone Europe, Portugal, Italy
19:50 slef rafael: I meant, do you have libraries using the English UNIMARC mappings?
19:50 rafael well I was trying to follow English to maintain as much compability as possible and it works and is enough but may be we could try a common framework for 3.4
19:51 slef Colin: moi aussi... les allemands sont plus sages ;-)
19:51 hdl Portugal and Italy are not francophone.
19:51 cait slef: can you translate?
19:51 gmcharlt I think for the moment we've talked this one out --- additional discussion to blogs or email
19:51 hdl and Russia and Georgia are also using UNIMARC
19:51 slef hdl: imagine a + sign, not a union
19:51 thd fredericd had told me that one of his libraries was using it.  I cautioned him about incompleteness.
19:51 Colin That was a list francophone is Belgium Switzerland etc (part of in both cases)
19:51 slef cait: probably.
19:52 gmcharlt moving on in the agenda
19:52 gmcharlt action items from General IRC Meeting, 11 August 2010.
19:52 * slef hides in shame
19:52 thd I have had delay from my computer but I am using it now.
19:52 rafael We follow as much possible MARC concepts and UNIMARC for bibliographic description but 9xx could be common to everybody
19:52 gmcharlt I think main pending one would be organizing vote for relicensing
19:53 thd Tonight, I should post a message which SFLC sent me a month ago.
19:53 davi Also, I think Koha should not use 952, as it is OBSOLETE as per
19:53 davi ?
19:53 slef I've got at least two very unfun items on my todo list about the relicensing: vote format and one of the summaries. Nothing blocking them really, just the volume of paid work I've got to do.
19:53 gmcharlt and at this point ... action on part of people to set up vote, define ballotts, etc. will determine if/when it takes place
19:53 thd Sorry that ###gparted caused me such trouble in fixing my partitions.
19:53 slef davi: that's a different discussion.  Add it to next agenda?
19:54 davi s/use/encourage the use/
19:54 davi ack
19:54 slef rst
19:54 davi yes, please add to next agenda
19:54 gmcharlt davi: general comment -  9xx fields are specifically for local use
19:54 davi I know but
19:54 slef ok, I'll probably mention the 952/852 thing on list
19:54 davi 952 is OBSOLETE as per
19:55 davi and so maybe Koha should not encourage its use
19:55 gmcharlt davi: I suggest reading the description of that tag on that document
19:55 rafael even if for local use do they have any impact on Koha scripts ???
19:55 hdl and MARC is dead... ;)
19:55 gmcharlt LC is referring to an antique CAN/MARC usage; has nothing to do with Koha at this point
19:55 slef rafael: bulkmarcimport takes item info from 952s
19:56 rafael so we need to have a common framework....
19:56 gmcharlt rafael: more precisely, bulkmarcimport uses what ever tag has been defined as the item tag per the MARC frameworks/item mapping in effect in the Koha database
19:56 gmcharlt rafael: so 952 if you're a MARC21 user, 995 if you're a UNIMARC user
19:56 gmcharlt or something else if you've customized your frameworks
19:56 rafael thanks
19:56 hdl but only with one tag for item information
19:57 gmcharlt final item of the agenda - decide next time
19:57 thd davi: gmcharlt had the answer for you.  I can explain more after the meeting.
19:57 davi ack, thanks thd
19:57 gmcharlt the first Wendesday in October is 10/6
19:57 gmcharlt 10:00 UTC+0 ?
19:57 * gmcharlt says, blearily in advance
19:58 rafael left #koha
19:58 gmcharlt so ...
19:58 thd 10 UTC is a very good time :)
19:59 thd +1
19:59 davi +1
19:59 hdl what time is it for you gmcharlt?
19:59 gmcharlt hdl: too dang early
19:59 hdl 4AM ?
20:00 chris 11pm for me, thats ok
20:00 thd gmcharlt: There is plenty of time to sleep after the meeting :)
20:01 chris_n thd: only if you don't go to work at a location too distant
20:01 gmcharlt hdl: something like that; main reason is that we've been running the past few meetings at a bad time for those in India, so it's time to do a 10:00 UTC
20:01 hdl +1 then
20:01 indradg gmcharlt, +1
20:01 slef You can practice for kohacon jetlag early!
20:01 * chris_n would rather that than 6 or 7 utc
20:01 * wizzyrea will attend from bed
20:01 chris_n +1
20:01 thd It is only fair to provide for globally appropriate times
20:02 irma +1
20:02 gbengaada +1
20:02 gmcharlt ok, so it's set at 6 October, 10:00 UTC+0
20:02 indradg yes... its 1:32 in the morning here in India, so +1
20:02 davi +1
20:02 indradg :)
20:02 gmcharlt thanks all - meeting adjourned
20:02 hdl hi indradg.
20:02 LBA joined #koha
20:02 * wizzyrea realizes that is the week before she leaves for NZ... squees a little
20:02 hdl see you.
20:03 thd davi: I can explain more about 952 now
20:03 * hdl can't wait meeting all those ppl
20:03 davi thanks thd
20:03 lculber left #koha
20:03 nengard left #koha
20:04 slef squees?
20:04 davi Just I wanted to noted that maybe Koha should not encourage the use of 952 as it is marked as OBSOLETE at
20:04 davi What do you think about it thd ?
20:04 wizzyrea it's an expression denoting a squeal-like vocalization
20:05 chris ok time to get the kids ready for the day
20:05 jcamins davi: the 9xx fields are all local. Anyone can use them for whatever they want. That page from LC is talking about the old CANMARC standard.
20:05 thd 952 was chosen by Nelsonville Public Library sponsoring paul_p's work to create a MARC version of Koha for the first time out of non-MARC Koha.
20:05 cait davi: 9xx fields are local, not part of the standard
20:05 davi jcamins, Do you knwo some page which document the non-old MARC21 standard?
20:06 jcamins The LC website.
20:06 davi thanks
20:06 jcamins That *specific* page describes fields that were used in the old standard.
20:07 davi good good, thanks
20:07 jcamins We need to use a local field for holdings information, because the standard field doesn't have enough information.
20:07 jcamins @marc 852
20:07 munin jcamins: Identifies the organization holding the item or from which it is available. May also contain detailed information about how to locate the item in a collection. (Repeatable) [a,b,c,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,p,q,s,t,u,x,z,2,3,6,8]
20:07 thd Unfortunately, libraries use 9XX to do important things which creates something of an extended standard and some libraries somewhere have old records with 952 data from CAN/MARC.
20:07 irma
20:08 thd davi: The problem with using 852 is that what is needed for Koha does not match the usage of 852.
20:08 * chris wanders off
20:08 davi thd, Should Koha be modified to adapt to match the standard?
20:09 davi I think the standard should be more important than the usage?
20:09 thd I tried to make 952 usage more compatible with 852 for 3.0 development but my attempt at better conformity with the standard lost out to the need to include columns which are not standard in 852.
20:09 irma davi, after kohacon10 @ the hackfest some some work will be done on this
20:10 jcamins davi: I don't think that's reasonable, because 952 contains a lot of important information which is not in the 852.
20:10 davi thanks
20:10 gmcharlt davi: jcamins is right - there is *no* standard serialization that covers everything one might store in an item record, be the ILS Koha or anything else
20:10 thd davi: Koha should be able to support standard holdings which uses multiple fields not just 852 for MARC 21.
20:11 slef the standard should be more important than the usage, but sometimes performance (CPU or developer) needs override both
20:11 davi I see 9XX is needed as exposed by somebody above
20:11 cait thd: standard holdings are a bit of a nightmare and still missing fields
20:11 cait thd: our union catalog can export marc21 holdings
20:11 slef it would be nice if Koha tools imported/exported 852s more easily - conversion is not the most fun sort of work
20:11 thd davi: The one MARC field design limitation requires a design change which is present in the LLEK fork and in a fork in Cyprus which inspired the feature in LLEK.
20:12 anitsirk joined #koha
20:12 davi About rel-licensing, if any
20:13 davi Has been AGPLv3+, GPLv3+, proposals written?
20:13 davi so I can review the AGPLv3+ ?
20:13 thd cait: Do you mean that standard MARC 21 holdings does not track everything which the ILS tracks for holdings?
20:13 irma left #koha
20:13 cait thd: at least I am not sure about it
20:14 irma joined #koha
20:14 cait we don't have all information in the union catalog, so I don't know all fields
20:14 thd davi: the *GPL discussion has merely been delayed by my broken and now fixed computer.
20:14 gmcharlt thd: cait: they don't - simple as that.  for example, the no MFHD or 852 standard encompasses the concept of an item statistical category
20:14 cait but I think fields as overall checkouts, holds, renewals, last checkout date will not be part of the standard
20:15 gmcharlt exactly
20:15 davi ack thd
20:15 thd I do not think it important for a holdings standard to retain all transient data.
20:16 cait It's part of the item data is all ils I know
20:17 gmcharlt thd: who is to define what is important or not for a data migration or, more generally, data interchange
20:17 thd gmcharlt: everything is important for data migration
20:17 gmcharlt your "transient data" is my discovery system's gold mine of statistical information that can improve search results, for example
20:17 thd losing data is a sin
20:18 thd data interchange importance is merely what people agree is important with whomever they wish to interchange data
20:19 LBA left #koha
20:19 indradg hdl, hi
20:20 thd The problem is that one instance of [0-9a-z] from one field is not enough for everything which people want for holdings even on a long term basis and we need some method around that difficulty at least where indexing the data is important.
20:23 cait ok, I already started on the upper case letters ;)
20:23 thd Koha 3.0 design presumed that one instance of [0-9a-z] had to be enough because that was the existing design in Koha and the desire was to release 3.0 sooner than would have been practical with a redesign of holdings.
20:23 davi What is the the library you have seen which more do a use more extensive of MARC21 ?
20:24 thd cait: just be careful that the code does not clobber your data :)
20:24 davi The library of Congress maybe?
20:24 cait yeah, I am, but so far it seems to be no problem
20:24 cait and it is standard compliant
20:24 thd davi: What do you mean by more extensive?
20:25 davi Using as much MARC fields
20:25 davi Some libraries use just a very small subset, you know
20:25 cait of 952 subfields or marc21 in general?
20:25 thd davi: LC is the largest library, however, OCLC would have the most diverse set of records.
20:26 davi both, as both are part of MARC21?
20:26 davi I think 9XX is part also
20:26 davi even if defined for local use only
20:26 cait hm I think you could argue about the 9xx fields
20:26 thd OCLC is a consortia, not a library of course.
20:26 cait and x9x , xx0
20:26 davi thanks thd
20:26 slef OCLC is a co-operative
20:26 thd s/consortia/union catalogue/
20:27 thd as slef said
20:27 cait I think they are great differneces in libraries
20:27 jcamins davi: 9xx is not part of the MARC21 standard, because each library can choose a different meaning.
20:28 thd davi: I will try to restart discussions on *GPL on the mailing list tonight.
20:28 thd My computer had been fixed a week ago but I helped a couple of people move
20:28 davi jcamins, However 9xx use for "local use" is defined in the MARC21 standard, isn't it?
20:29 cait yes, but what fields and subfields you define, repeatable not repeatable is up to the library
20:29 jcamins Oh, you're saying that MARC21-compliant records can have 9xx fields?
20:29 davi thd, I think what we needed was just post draft of voting options (in wiki?) and then begin the review process in the mailing lists and so on, before beginning the voting?
20:29 jcamins Yes, of course. But the meaning of any of those fields is not standard.
20:29 thd davi: yes all of that
20:29 davi ack
20:30 cait for Germany the 9xx fields got divided between union catalogs, national library and some others
20:30 cait so I know which I can use safely and will not get problems with data interchange in Germany
20:30 davi jcamins, The meaning not, but the 9xx use yes
20:31 cait not sure if this is done somewhere else too
20:31 jcamins Yes, any field with a 9 in it (so, 9xx, x9x, or xx9) is local.
20:31 * gmcharlt says, pendantically, except the 490 ;)
20:31 thd davi: and I look to slef to supply one or more options for a vote to consensus process which allows revoting.
20:32 indradg folks... sorry to barge in in the 9xx discussion, but I was wondering what do I need to do to feed Koha from a custom book cover source (i.e. non-amazon / google / syndatics)?
20:32 richard joined #koha
20:32 jcamins gmcharlt: apologies. I'm still in denial.
20:33 * cait adds the $9 subfields
20:33 davi thd, Allow re-voting and editing vote and so on is a good more IMHO
20:33 cait not as exception, but as being local
20:33 jcamins indradg: at the moment, there's no easy way to do it, I don't think.
20:35 jcamins You can modify the XSLT stylesheet to include an <img>, if the cover images are named predictably.
20:35 indradg jcamins, just as I thought
20:35 Colin gmcharlt: did you see the other patch I sent a while back to get updatedatebase working?
20:36 gmcharlt Colin: yep - I can push it, although hope to hear results of your testing the patch for 4310
20:36 cait gmcharlt: so only patches for the acq blocker will get into 3.2 now? no other bug fixes?
20:36 jcamins I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to do, but if you just need to associate an image with each record, you can take a look at the image_library branch in my repository ( ).
20:36 gmcharlt cait: I'll do a final round of pushing *safe* bugfixes when I push the acq upgrade fixes
20:36 cait I have a lot of pending patches, just wondering :)
20:36 Colin First attempt failed - I'm restoring for a closer look
20:37 cait ah ok
20:37 thd gmcharlt: Yes, the XML meta-record wrapper is what should be done for holdings.
20:37 indradg jcamins, the case is this, my client - the principal govt library in my home state of West Bengal (india) is planning on a tie-up with local indian publishers for cover image syndication (nothing like this really exists for local (non-english) publications)... its not a Koha case yet, I'm trying to convince :)
20:37 cait safe as not changing templates or include database updates?
20:38 jcamins indradg: I see. In that case you'd need some sort of API, probably.
20:39 thd gmcharlt: I have a more radical idea of making MARC merely an import and export format with lossless conversion to and from a more granular XML format.
20:40 cait gmcharlt: I don't want to bug, just keeping track of my pending patches :)
20:40 gmcharlt thd: interesting idea - although the irony is that MARCXML, for the most part, *is* the most granular of the variousXML metadata formats
20:40 cait and working on one more to repair email notification of new serial issues
20:41 gmcharlt cait: no string changes; DB udpates may be OK, but criteria is that fix be obviously correct
20:41 cait ok, thx!
20:41 jcamins thd: that's pretty radical.
20:41 thd gmcharlt: I intend to extend the RDA enhanced XML schema whenever they have time to publish it
20:43 thd jcamins: there should be no nonsense such as numeric values in the same subfield as the units being designated and no language specific strings encoding information such as pagination.
20:43 jcamins It is a beautiful dream.
20:44 cait yes
20:44 jcamins I'm not quite sure how practical it is, but I certainly like the idea.
20:44 thd jcamins, gmcharlt: Everything which can be normalised should be so the automation systems can actually use the data and not wait for the humans to interpret the data :)
20:45 thd jcamins: RDA is built from such an XML format although less granular than what I describe.
20:45 cait thd: can we get rid of the isbd punctuaton too?
20:45 jcamins cait++
20:45 Colin cait++
20:46 thd cait: we will never be rid of it but we can relieve cataloguers of the need to create the punctuation.
20:46 jcamins thd: unfortunately, RDA is too expensive to be a viable standard.
20:46 jcamins At least, from my point of view it is.
20:47 cait In my dream world the system will take care of it, even stripping it from incoming data or tables like biblio and biblioitems
20:47 thd jcamins: I have been discussing a remedy for the cost with the publishers
20:47 Colin When UK libraries went from UKMARC to marc21 I wrote lots of complex code to put the punctuation in going "This is wrong" to anyone who would listen
20:47 jcamins Did anyone listen?
20:47 cait same here
20:48 cait the german exchange format does not include punctuation
20:48 Colin yes but they could only sympathize
20:48 cait but worldcat wants it and koha looks strange without
20:48 cait so they had to write that complex code too
20:48 thd jcamins: A free version of RDA will probably take a couple of years but the publishers are listening as is the president of W3C.
20:49 sekjal goodnight, #koha!
20:49 sekjal left #koha
20:49 thd cait: Automation systems are responsible for creating ISBD publication in UNIMARC.
20:50 cait thd: sorry, i dont understand
20:50 thd s/publication/punctuation/
20:50 cait ah
20:50 cait so UNIMARC uses isbd punctuation too?
20:50 cait or can use?
20:51 jcamins Well, let's hope that A) RDA turns out to be less of a disaster than it looks like coming down the pike and B) the high cost doesn't render it a lame duck before the publishers manage to make it affordable.
20:51 cait our horizon systems use unimarc without isbd punctuation
20:51 thd cait: UNIMARC defines the rules by which automation systems create ISBD publication.
20:51 thd s/publication/punctuation/
20:51 thd :)
20:52 thd cait: MAB had been similar in some respects.
20:53 cait don't know MAB so well, Koha is the main reason I had to learn about bibliographic data formats
20:53 Colin gmcharlt:  the 4310 fix does not work
20:54 thd cait: at the last MARBI meeting for the MARC 21 standard a proposal form DDB passed to set a fixed filed value designating that the record does not contain some ISBD punctuation and that consequently the automation system must supply the missing punctuation where needed.
20:54 cait ah yes
20:55 cait one of my coworkers was at the marbi meeting
20:56 cait I am still working on the hierarchies between titles... but I am very slow
20:56 thd cait: The MAB practise had still been to include much more ISBD punctuation than UNIMARC which leaves the problem to automation.
20:56 cait I m all for leave it to automation
20:56 jwagner left #koha
20:56 cait but I am not so happy with the decision to not have isbd punctuation, because it's a terrible mix now
20:57 cait download a record from loc and you have punctuation, download one from another source, no isbd punctuation
20:58 alan joined #koha
20:58 thd cait:  At the meeting, John Attig explained that leaving punctuation entirely to automation would be difficult to accomplish in MARC 21 where the user is editing the MARC record directly because MARC 21 did not have the advantage of arranging fields in ISBD order the way UNIMARC did.
21:00 cait hm.
21:00 thd cait: John Attig told me that the idea of having the cataloguer edit MARC records directly was an historical mistake which should never have been made.
21:00 jcamins _Now_ they tell us?
21:00 jcamins ;)
21:01 thd John Attig has been around long enough to know the history.
21:01 collum left #koha
21:01 thd almost long enough
21:02 thd John Attig said that he was all for the idea of cataloguers using an easy to use interface where they would only need to know the tasks of cataloguing not fine details of a record exchange format.
21:05 jcamins That sounds wonderful.
21:05 thd If John Attig does not see an objection, automation systems implementers could probably accomplish the task without having it rejected.
21:05 jcamins But now it's quitting time, which means I get at least an hour of MARC-free time (i.e. my commute home). :)
21:06 jcamins Good night, #koha
21:06 cait :)
21:06 cait good night jcamins
21:06 thd jcamins: MARC 21 cannot be reformed sufficiently, but your system can.
21:06 cait and i have to accept that I will not be fixing this bug today :(
21:06 thd good night jcamins
21:06 jcamins is now known as jcamins_a
21:06 cait bed time
21:06 cait sleep well #koha
21:06 cait left #koha
21:07 * thd heads to the post office.
21:07 thd is now known as thd-away
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21:24 chris back
21:30 * richard reads the meeting notes
21:31 chris was a nice short and useful meeting i thought
21:31 richard yeah
21:36 * richard thanks natlib for sending the info about MARC format to the devel list
21:36 chris heh yeah
21:36 chris random eh
21:36 chris they sent one to me as well
21:37 chris i guess the only address they had for katipo was the devel list?
21:37 richard didn't think of that
21:37 richard but better it goes to the devel list than to individuals
21:37 chris yup
21:38 chris the good news, its mostly some zebra indexing changes, framework change, and xslt change and its done (to the basic level they are talking about anyway)
21:38 richard cool
21:53 chris
21:53 chris first batch
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23:23 irma G'day #koha
23:25 irma Are you there Chris?
23:27 chris heya irma
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23:30 * wasabi waves from kapiti
23:42 jcamins_a Were there really no messages on the Koha mailing lists today?
23:42 jcamins_a Or is there something wrong with my e-mail?
23:42 jcamins_a is now known as jcamins
23:43 chris hmm i saw some
23:43 chris and one on koha-devel
23:43 chris jcamins: i count at least 5 to the main list
23:44 chris[…]ember/thread.html
23:44 jcamins Hm. I guess either A) there's something wrong with my e-mail or B) someone downloaded all my e-mail.
23:45 chris that was me sorry
23:45 chris i read all your mail
23:45 chris :)
23:45 jcamins Heh.
23:46 jcamins Was there anything interesting?
23:46 chris i read so many peoples i cant keep it all straight ;)
23:46 chris shouldnt you be honeymooning somewhere? :)
23:47 jcamins I'm thinking there's a problem with my e-mail, since the webmail interface keeps on trying to download itself rather than display. Weird.
23:47 jcamins Shari's PhD classes started last Thursday, so no honeymoon this year.
23:47 jcamins Just homework. ;)
23:47 chris ahhh, that'd do it
23:47 jcamins Next year we'll have an actual reception and go on a honeymoon after.
23:48 chris so, what we need to do, is get kohacon in europe next year, and time your honeymoon to end as that starts :)
23:49 jcamins I like that idea! We'll be in Budapest until the very end of August.
23:50 chris ohhh
23:50 chris do we have any hungarian libraries i wonder
23:50 chris :)
23:50 jcamins So that might be a little early for Kohacon.
23:50 jcamins I don't know... I feel like CEU might use Koha, though.
23:51 chris well i figure if its northern hempishere, wont want to be end of october
23:51 chris that would be too cold
23:51 jcamins No, they use Millenium.
23:51 jcamins Good point.
23:51 chris maybe in the next month or so ill mail the list saying, now kohacon10 is nearly here, its time for people to start volunteering to organise/host kohacon11
23:53 jcamins We should have it in Helsinki... or Tallinn! then I can make a research trip across to Saint Petersburg afterwards. :)
23:54 chris there ya go
23:54 chris norway isnt far
23:54 chris and we definitely have norwegian libraries :)
23:54 chris and a norwegian support company
23:54 chris not sure about any in finland yet
23:54 jcamins Well, Norway sounds pretty great.
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