IRC log for #koha, 2010-07-13

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
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01:46 brendan evening
01:48 chris SelfishMa: sorry for the late answer, you use zebra right?
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02:37 casper how can i enable thai language on the OPAC/
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02:59 SelfishMa chris: yes
03:00 SelfishMa hmm...why is my nick shortened?  did the IRC server software change?
03:00 chris yes it did
03:00 chris we now have channel services
03:00 chris like that
03:01 chris :)
03:01 SelfishMa ha
03:02 SelfishMa chris: so, any ideas?
03:03 chris yeah if its zebra, then you need to edit some config files
03:03 chris and reindex
03:04 chris i just have to patch a server, and then ill find the files
03:04 SelfishMa no worries
03:04 SelfishMa Think I may have figured part of it out but not certain
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03:40 brendan SelfishMa - try looking at the record.abs, bib1.att and
03:40 brendan those three files work in conjunction for building the indexes for zebra
03:40 chris what he said :)
03:40 brendan those are burned on the back on my eyelids
03:40 SelfishMa cool
03:41 brendan sorry not cool ;)
03:41 brendan heh
03:43 SelfishMa ok, there any docs for those files?
04:01 brendan not that I know of
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07:22 kf morning koha
07:24 Ropuch Morning kf [;
07:24 hdl hi kf
07:25 kf hi Ropuch and hdl
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07:33 Ropuch Hi hdl
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09:51 chris evening
10:05 Ropuch Hi chris
10:38 kf hi chris
10:47 * chris is watching some tour de france before bed
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11:23 kf hi again #koha
11:28 jwagner joined #koha
11:30 kf hi jwagner
11:37 druthb hi, kf!
11:37 * kf waves to druthb
11:40 jwagner Hi kf
12:17 owen joined #koha
12:19 druthb hi, owen
12:19 owen Hi
12:20 owen I have nothing to report at this time.
12:25 jwagner Were we expecting something???
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12:46 owen kf around?
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12:48 kf here
12:49 owen Hi kf, I've been doing some updates to tools/holidays.tmpl and it looks like there are a lot of untranslatable strings in the javascript
12:49 owen Is that something you've run into?
12:50 owen Well, maybe just a few
12:50 kf owen: let me check
12:51 kf I have not filed a bug for this, but you are right, there are a lot of strings
12:52 kf the whole calendar is English
12:52 owen That's not what I was looking at, but I'm not surprised
12:52 owen I'm almost positive there is a way to change the language on the calendar
12:53 kf perhaps a laguage file or something
12:53 kf only one of our libraries is trained to use the calendar, because they have hebrew holidays I know nothing about :)
12:54 kf hm
12:54 kf will you file a bug?
12:55 owen Now that I think about it I think I saw one...
12:55 kf hm and is the "about the calendar" supposed to be a link?
12:55 owen The ? in the upper left
12:56 kf the explanations (click on + when adding a new holiday) are not translatable either
12:56 kf owen: yes, but there is a line of text at the bottom
12:56 kf ah, stupid me
12:56 kf ok
12:56 owen My work will address the explanations
12:56 kf ok
12:56 owen I see some English day of the week names in the Javascript, but I'm not sure they're output to the screen anywhere
12:57 kf hm perhaps when you add a weekly holiday
12:57 owen Ah, yes you're right
12:58 kf the dates look ok, dd/mm/yyyy
12:58 kf that's good
13:02 owen The calendar has it's own language file, but it only comes with the English version
13:04 owen Here we go: Bug 2307. Assigned to me, even (why didn't it show up in my list?)
13:04 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2307 normal, P3, ---, oleonard, RESOLVED REMIND, Patch for international js-calendar
13:04 owen Oh, because of "resolved remind"
13:07 owen hdl: Do you provide a different calendar translation for your libraries? Or do they get the English-language calendar?
13:08 hdl no different calendar translation
13:10 owen Don't they complain about that? :)
13:13 hdl owen: there are so many critical demands that they don't
13:14 owen I guess kf's librarians aren't complaining loudly either :)
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13:15 hdl owen: access to holidays is not quite that frequent
13:15 kf owen: hdl is right - there are other things with higher priority
13:15 owen Just to be clear, the same issue comes up wherever there is a calendar popup
13:15 kf bug 2188
13:16 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2188 major, P3, ---, gmcharlt, REOPENED, outputs untranslatable English strings
13:16 kf thats a real bad translation bug
13:16 kf and old :(
13:17 jcamins Good morning, #koha
13:20 kf owen: how hard is it to add a translation file for the calendar?
13:21 owen It may end up being easier to copy the language strings from calendar-en.js to so that they can be processed along with other strings
13:21 kf in po files?
13:22 owen Yes
13:22 owen[…]d774ed0;hb=master
13:22 owen That's what the language configuration file looks like. It's not that big
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13:33 CGI183 I am having issue when I try to print barcode labels with bibliographic info on them.  Koha has options to do it but everytime I export the information into a PDF, only the barcode or the bibliographic info shows up but never both.  Does anyone have any suggestions?
13:34 kf owen: sorry, phone call
13:40 CGI183 Can anyone help with the barcode/bibliographic info issues?
13:40 owen CGI183: I don't know anything about it, but if you want help from someone who does you'll need to specify your platform and Koha version
13:41 owen kf: Moving the calendar strings into seems to work okay from the point of view of the calendar's functionality. I'll submit a patch and maybe if you have time you could test it
13:43 CGI183 I'm running Koha 3.01
13:43 CGI183 What options are there for platforms? (Sorry, I'm a novice at best)
13:46 CGI183 I'm running it on Linux
13:47 kf owen: sure :)
13:50 CGI183 I guess I'll check back later
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13:50 kf owen: had an idea yesterday, not sure if others would find it usefull, but for checkout it could be useful to enter something like +28 in sticky due date and make koha calculate the right date
13:51 owen Sounds like a neat idea
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13:56 kf owen: will try to write an enh request some time
13:56 kf preparing presentation now
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14:01 owen Patch submitted for Bug 2307, but I didn't test it with the translation script
14:01 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2307 normal, PATCH-Sent, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED, Calendar widget cannot be translated
14:17 kf owen: I have to prepare for a presentation today, but can perhaps test on laptop later
14:17 owen Thanks kf, I'm not in any rush
14:19 kf yes, string freeze...
14:36 kf owen: I like the screenshot
14:36 kf perhaps place the hints under the calendar?
14:37 owen Then the hints would be down off the screen when the entry form is displayed
14:43 kf hm ok
14:43 owen Does anyone know why the opac detail's XSL file would use "marc:datafield[@tag=490][@ind1=0]" to display the 490 tag?
14:43 owen Why the "[@ind1=0]" ?
14:44 jcamins I do know, actually.
14:44 jcamins That is so that Koha will display the traced heading whenever possible.
14:44 jcamins The 440 has been replaced by a 490/830 combination.
14:46 jcamins Whether that is the correct behavior is open to some debate.
14:46 owen I have no idea what any of that means :)
14:46 jcamins[…]ies-data-in-marc/
14:47 jcamins That won't answer your question, but there's some debate for you.
14:47 jwag_mtg is now known as jwagner
14:47 jcamins Basically, when we catalog a book that's in a series, we transcribe the *exact* wording into the 490.
14:48 jcamins But, since that's lousy authority control, we also have the option of "tracing" the heading, so that people can do left-anchored searches (in theory... I don't think Koha does this). That would go into the 830, and in principle each library should have an authority file so that the cataloger can figure out the proper form.
14:48 jcamins The 440 used to combine both those features.
14:48 jcamins Well, kind of.
14:49 owen What does that have to do with [@ind1=0] ?
14:49 jcamins Oh, sorry.
14:49 jcamins Ind1 indicates whether there's a "traced" version of the heading.
14:49 jcamins If it's set to 0, that means there is no alternate form.
14:50 jcamins If it's set to 1, there's an 8xx with a traced form, which would be preferable from a linking point of view.
14:50 kf jcamins, owen: we had code to do this in our xslt
14:50 kf I have it on my todo list to write a patch
14:50 kf I think its active in
14:50 jcamins There's no way of marking the relationship between a given 490 and 8xx field, so displaying the 490 and searching on the 8xx is problematic.
14:51 kf not sure how it was solved, but atm they do not displa
14:51 kf y
14:51 kf its some of the things I had no time to work on :(
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14:51 kf it's one...
14:53 owen So the current version checks for indication that there is an 8xx tag even though there is no mechanism for display the 8xx tags :|
14:53 jcamins owen: Did my explanation help at all?
14:53 jcamins Right.
14:53 jcamins Well that's problematic.
14:54 owen That blog post and the comments on it are helpful too
14:54 jcamins Oh good.
14:54 jcamins It's a very serious problem.
14:54 jcamins ... at least if you're a cataloger.
14:54 owen As usual with MARC I'm a little sorry I asked ;)
14:55 jcamins Fair enough.
14:55 owen jcamins: I'm trying to figure out what the loose ends on Bug 2704 are
14:55 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2704 major, P3, ---, oleonard, NEW, 440 Display Issues
14:56 owen One commenter says "If we don't parse the 800-830 fields, then the @ind1=0 filter should be dropped, imo."
14:56 wizzyrea[…]from-the-outside/ interesting article
14:57 kf owen: I could send you our xslt file it that helps? I think it works in our catalog
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14:57 owen kf: I'd certainly be interested in seeing it
14:57 kf but my boss wrote the code, so I m not sure about the implementation
14:57 jcamins I agree with that, but I think there are also implications for zebra indexing that might not have been addressed.
14:58 kf email?
14:58 owen
14:58 jcamins Actually, it looks like we have the indexing correct.
14:58 kf ok, give me a minute
15:00 kf owen: ah, we have records for traced series
15:01 kf owen: we have a unique identifier to search with
15:01 kf but I hope the solution is flexible enough to work withoug
15:01 kf without
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15:04 wizzyrea ooh, trea
15:05 trea o/
15:08 owen jcamins: Any thoughts on the elimination of the @ind1=0 check in the absence of 8xx handling?
15:09 jcamins ++
15:09 jcamins It would be preferable to support 8xx, but I don't think that's going to make it into 3.2.
15:10 kf owen: mail sent
15:10 owen Thanks kf!
15:10 kf I tried to explain some things... plz ask
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15:44 kf @karma bywater
15:44 munin kf: Karma for "bywater" has been increased 6 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 6.
15:44 kf bywater++
15:44 sekjal :)
15:45 kf koha demos :)
15:46 wizzyrea yea, I realized when I typed that, I should have been more accurate
15:46 wizzyrea er, after I typed it
15:47 sekjal does anyone have an opinion on whether we should continue to track HEAD with the demo, after 3.2 is finalized, or should we stick with the stable release?
15:48 kf can we have both? :)
15:49 sekjal I don't see why not.
15:51 kf bywater++
15:51 wizzyrea yea, let's do both
15:52 wizzyrea if you don't mind
15:52 sekjal I'll talk to brendan about how we can rig it up once 3.2 is ready
15:53 wizzyrea I think it would be neat to say "here's what you get in the tarball" and "here's what we're working on"
15:53 kf yep
15:54 sekjal yeah, it made more sense to run off HEAD right now, with 3.2 so very close, and all that good code in there that people will need get comfortable with
15:55 sekjal I like the idea of two.  that let's people compare Koha to Koha, and decide where they want to be release-wise
16:09 jwagner Bug 3656 -- there was a patch in September 2009 but it's never gone anywhere.  Any particular reason?
16:09 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3656 enhancement, PATCH-Sent, ---, henridamien, NEW, Specify fields to be omitted from the patron record
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16:11 owen jwagner: It was for rel_3_0
16:12 kf I would really like that feature, working with jquery now
16:12 owen But actually I don't think it was pushed to rel_3_0 either. At least I don't see mention of it in any emails
16:13 hdl owen: no was not applied.
16:13 jwagner I've never seen it come through -- I was reviewing my bug reports & noticed it.  It's one I'd really like too.
16:13 owen jwagner: Have you tried using the patch?
16:13 hdl In fact, it was a specific dev for a customer.
16:13 jwagner Not yet.  It's on my latest cherrypick list.
16:13 kf I think it will not work with the new sys pref editor?
16:14 hdl kf: I think that jquery could really ease the pain of display/hide.
16:14 kf hdl: I'm using jquery now, it works nice, but I think configuration is a better way
16:14 hdl kf: TMPL_UNLESS prefixing stuf is really a hassle to maintain and write to.
16:15 kf I m a bit worreid about performance with too much jquery
16:15 hdl kf: Koha is not optimized for javascript at the moment.
16:15 owen Yeah the template changes in that patch make quite a mess. I don't know how else you could do it though
16:16 hdl we should use Yslow to profile that a little bit.
16:16 CGI105 I'm running Koha 3.01 on Linux and am having difficulties when printing barcodes...calling for specific bibliographic information prevents the printable files from opening.  Any suggestions?
16:16 hdl for instance js loding is at the beginning of page.
16:16 hdl Should come to the end of pages.
16:20 atz joined #koha
16:20 kf hi atz
16:20 atz greets all
16:21 owen Hi atz
16:21 jwagner Hi atz, long time no see
16:21 atz hey, owen.  just thinking the same thing.  haven't even crossed digital paths for a while
16:22 druthb hi, atz!
16:22 CGI105 I'm guessing no takers on the issue with printing barcodes...?
16:22 atz hey, druthb.  how's the east coast?
16:23 druthb Doing well!  Not so hot and muggy this week, which is nice.  Even after a year, I'm still getting used to things, but I love living here.
16:23 atz yeah, nothing like DC swamp humidity in west Texas!
16:24 druthb nope.  And nothing like West Texas' hopeless rednecks in DC--except for tourist visitors.
16:24 atz and some congressmen
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16:26 druthb heh, yeah.  There was an article in the Post this week about imagining a DC without air conditioning--Congress would go home, like they used to a century ago, for three months, which means fewer nonsense laws passed...
16:26 kf bug 4438 again - cant delete owner without javascript, can't save with javascript :(
16:26 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=4438 major, P5, ---, henridamien, ASSIGNED, incorrect "Budget total exceeds period allocation" error when editing fund
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16:41 kf nengard: around?
16:46 owen kf: I think she's traveling today
16:47 kf ah ok, wanted to ask about her filter bug, I closed it now, looked really ok to me
16:54 davi Out of Topic
16:54 davi About the Affero GPL license
16:54 davi * [Article]: Google pays for Affero ban,[…]google_bans_aero/
16:55 davi "ClipperZ said it was transferring from Google Code to SourceForge because it wanted to use AGPL."
16:55 davi * Incomplete list of projects using the AGPL license:[…]_web_applications
16:56 davi * SugarCRM
16:56 davi * Launchpad
16:57 davi *
16:58 atz didn't google buy sourceforge anyway?
17:00 hdl joined #koha
17:02 brendan heya atz
17:02 atz guess not (yet)....  the register story has pretty weak numbers though
17:02 atz hey brendan
17:02 brendan happy birthday
17:02 atz thx
17:05 pianohack bbl
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17:27 kf bye #koha
17:27 kf left #koha
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17:41 CGI112 Anybody there?
17:42 CGI112 Chris? Wizzyrea?
17:42 owen Do you have a question CGI112 ?
17:43 CGI112 Owen: yeah, I've been trying to get help with printing barcodes and other labels
17:44 CGI112 I can't seem to get book titles or authors to print along with the barcodes even though Koha has a setting for it
17:46 CGI112 Whenever I request that a call number, ISBN, or barcode number is printed next to the barcode, everything is fine.  However, when I request that an author or title is printed next to the barcode, it says there is an error
17:50 jcamins CGI112: I've never used these features at all, but did you do the MARC Bibliographic framework test under Koha Administration?
17:51 CGI112 I don't believe I did.  How do I do it?
17:52 jcamins On the Administration page (in your staff client) there is a link to "MARC Bibliographic framework test."
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17:54 CGI112 jcamins: I clicked on the link and it says everything is a-okay
17:54 jcamins Well, that's good, anyway.
17:54 jcamins Maybe check your MARC links?
17:55 CGI112 Sorry, I am such a computer novice
17:55 CGI112 ...How do I check the MARC links?
17:57 brendan joined #koha
17:59 CGI112 jcamins: can I check the links through the administration page?
18:08 jcamins Yeah. "Koha to MARC Mapping."
18:08 jcamins Make sure that title says 245.
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18:15 CGI112 Title does say 245...what should author say?
18:15 jcamins 100
18:17 jcamins I'm out of ideas. We don't use the barcode functionality in Koha.
18:23 CGI112 Thanks for the ideas, jcamins.  Strangely, its working now.  I don't know how long it will continue working but its working now.  Do you have any suggestions of who I should talk to if I have problems in the future?
18:26 jcamins I'm not sure who uses those features.
18:26 jcamins Maybe send an e-mail to the list?
18:26 joetho cg112: Remember, this is an open source project, and unless you have engaged the services of a support vendor, you are going to have to solve issues like this on your own. This channel is a good source, and so are the email listservs.
18:26 wizzyrea chris_n is usually the one who knows most about labels and barcodes
18:27 joetho There is almost *always* somebody awake and on this channel.
18:27 trea they are in the business of teaching people to fish in this channel
18:27 wizzyrea "you can watch the sunrise around the world in #koha"
18:28 druthb @quote add <wizzyrea> "you can watch the sunrise around the world in #koha"
18:28 munin druthb: Error: You must be registered to use this command. If you are already registered, you must either identify (using the identify command) or add a hostmask matching your current hostmask (using the "hostmask add" command).
18:28 joetho @quote add <wizzyrea> "you can watch the sunrise around the world in #koha"
18:28 munin joetho: Error: You must be registered to use this command. If you are already registered, you must either identify (using the identify command) or add a hostmask matching your current hostmask (using the "hostmask add" command).
18:29 druthb @quote add <wizzyrea> "you can watch the sunrise around the world in #koha"
18:29 munin druthb: The operation succeeded.  Quote #83 added.
18:29 druthb There.
18:29 joetho hrrrmph.
18:31 druthb @roulette
18:31 munin druthb: *click*
18:31 druthb @quote random
18:31 munin druthb: Quote #49: "wizzyrea: KOHAKONG: Stomping all other ILS's" (added by a user that is no longer registered at 11:20 AM, December 22, 2009)
18:32 druthb @quote random
18:32 munin druthb: Quote #1: "<pianohacker> resolve, rather, I doubt it needs lotion" (added by gmcharlt at 11:05 PM, May 30, 2009)
18:32 wizzyrea hahahaha
18:32 druthb @quote random
18:32 munin druthb: Quote #25: "<wizzyrea> ha, in #koha we don't pick each other's brains... we git pull them." (added by gmcharlt at 03:40 PM, August 14, 2009)
18:32 * druthb falls out of her chair laughing.
18:32 wizzyrea i seem to be the queen of the pithy #koha meta quote
18:32 atz true
18:33 jcamins wizzyrea: you do indeed. You should have a #koha crown.
18:33 wizzyrea oh hey atz ! happy birthday a day late!
18:33 atz thx!
18:36 cait happy birthday :)
18:37 cait @quote random
18:37 munin cait: Quote #30: "< pianohacker> Dealing with me can indeed be painful" (added by chris at 05:34 PM, September 02, 2009)
18:37 cait owen: still around?
18:37 owen Yes
18:38 cait want to test your patch, but not sure how to get your patch out of bugzilla in the right format
18:39 cait or from the mailing list, I did it once but don't remember how :(
18:40 owen When you click on the attachment in bugzilla does it open a page of plain text?
18:41 cait no, a formatted page
18:41 cait[…]=2351&action=diff
18:41 owen Oh, don't click the diff link or the details link, click the title of the patch
18:41 cait aaah
18:41 cait thx owen!
18:42 owen Then you should be able to use the browser's file -> Save as to save it as a patch
18:42 cait owen++
18:43 sekjal anyone know the latest on bug 2690?  last update was last year
18:43 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2690 critical, P3, ---, gmcharlt, ASSIGNED, Security Vulnerability Gives me Administrative Access
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18:45 atz I think that is obsolete.  gmcharlt would know for certain.
18:45 gmcharlt near as I can tell, submitter didn't respond to request for more information
18:46 sekjal bug 3652 claims to be a more generalized instance of the bug
18:46 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3652 critical, P5, ---, mjr, NEW, XSS vulnerabilities
18:48 owen bug 3652 could also be considered a generalized version of Bug 2600
18:48 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2600 critical, P3, ---, oleonard, ASSIGNED, HTML tags in titles not escaped in many places
18:49 owen Having chased down many instances of Bug 2600 I'm certainly interested in the possibility of a default_escape of HTML
18:50 gmcharlt there would be fewer places to find to explicitly set escape = 0 if we do that
18:50 gmcharlt owen: would you have time this week to chase them all down?
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18:51 slef hi all
18:51 owen gmcharlt: You mean prioritize it for 3.2?
18:51 wizzyrea cait: as a translation person, have you worked at all with
18:52 gmcharlt owen: yes - the string freeze, after all, delays most other template changes
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18:52 cait wizzyrea: im not really a translation person, only for koha :)
18:52 tajoli joined #koha
18:52 wizzyrea ah, okies.
18:53 owen gmcharlt: What would require an explicit escape=0?
18:53 slef places where html is in the TMPL_VAR
18:53 cait wizzyrea: sorry, don't know the project
18:53 gmcharlt right - places that are intentionally injecting HTML that way
18:54 atz or URL fragments
18:54 wizzyrea it's ok :)
18:54 gmcharlt there shouldn't be all that many of them, and fewer all the time, but they do exist
18:54 slef atz: from memory (danger!) isn't there another escape for that?
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18:54 atz yes, they would need escape=url (but would be broken by same default move)
18:55 slef also ESCAPE=JS
18:55 slef same applies
18:55 atz it's good to have *some* kind of default escaping... we've been too sloppy in the past mixing and matching
18:56 owen What is the correct change to C4::Output to enable the default escape?
18:56 atz if nothing else, it'll break your feature till you pick the correct escaping.
18:56 slef it's an even bigger job than when I added the SQL escaping :-(
18:56 atz yeah, it affects literally every page and page fragment...
18:57 slef owen: default_escape=>'html' in the HTML::Template->new() call
18:58 slef might want force_untaint=>1 too
18:59 owen What is that?
18:59 slef stops you passing tainted variables to anything with escape="0" set
19:00 slef which would be another protection against XSS
19:00 owen Can you give me an example? I don't understand.
19:00 dpavlin quick question: against which component to report bugs with ldap?
19:00 gmcharlt slef: and what version of Koha does anything with the Perl taint flag? ;)
19:01 slef dpavlin: I guess Authentication.  Am I right?
19:01 slef gmcharlt: owen: ok, one for later.
19:02 dpavlin slef: I would guess same, but here is no such category on :-)
19:02 * slef waits for his list mailbox to open... and waits... and waits...
19:02 gmcharlt dpavlin: looks like authentication got missed during the changeover
19:02 * gmcharlt fixes that
19:03 slef dpavlin: Patrons
19:03 slef gmcharlt: are you sure?
19:03 druthb off to catch the bus in a few...see ya!
19:03 druthb left #koha
19:03 gmcharlt slef: quite sure - that component used to exist, but evidently wasn't created
19:03 atz wonder where the old bugs ended up then
19:04 slef ok
19:04 slef anyone going to admit to having an Authentication bug? ;-)
19:04 slef bug 4193 suggests they are stuck in importedbugs
19:04 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=4193 critical, PATCH-Sent, ---, henridamien, NEW, Authentication with cardnumber/password at intranet allows superlibrarian access
19:05 gmcharlt I've created the Authentication component
19:05 * atz nod
19:05 gmcharlt any volunteers to be the default assignee?
19:05 chris_n heya atz
19:05 chris yep anything my import couldnt find a component for, got stuck in importedbugs
19:05 owen Dang, there goes my plan to resolve all template bugs by removing the component
19:05 atz greets chris_n
19:05 dpavlin I'm up for assignee role.
19:06 dpavlin or at least for Admin Cc (if there is such a thing in bugzilla) because it usually breaks for me :-)
19:07 thd-away` is now known as thd
19:08 gmcharlt dpavlin: sure, I'll add you to the CC list for that component
19:08 gmcharlt PM me your email address, please
19:08 thd gmcharlt: Is there not a meeting now?
19:08 gmcharlt thd: I believe we were waiting for you
19:08 thd I am here :)
19:09 thd after neglecting the time blissfully
19:09 thd for a few minutes
19:10 thd gmcharlt: are you conducting the meeting?
19:10 gmcharlt I'm not really the one who called, but I'm wiling to moderate
19:10 francharb left #koha
19:10 gmcharlt so
19:11 gmcharlt page for the meeting is
19:11 gmcharlt[…]ing,_13_July_2010
19:11 thd Those with a strong record on one side such as myself should not be trusted.
19:11 gmcharlt agenda is
19:11 gmcharlt 1.  Follow-up on actions from General IRC Meeting, 2 June 2010 about the question of upgrading the copyright license for Koha 3.4.
19:11 gmcharlt 2. Forming the question.
19:11 gmcharlt 3. IRC voting, email ballot, or other ballot type?
19:11 gmcharlt let's start with roll call
19:11 * gmcharlt = Galen Charlton, 3.2 RM
19:11 thd Thomas Dukleth, Agogme, New York
19:12 * slef = MJ Ray, past RM, worker-member of, Somerset
19:12 Colin = Colin Campbell, PTFS-Europe
19:12 joetho joetho = Joe Tholen  / SEKLS / Kansas
19:12 * owen = Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library
19:12 brendan brendan gallagher, bywater solutions
19:12 sekjal Ian Walls, ByWater Solutions
19:12 jwagner Jane Wagner, PTFS
19:12 tajoli Zeno Tajoli, CILEA (Italy)
19:12 * chris_n = Chris Nighswonger, FBC, 3.2 Release Maintainer
19:12 atz \me Joe Atzberger, Equinox
19:12 * jcamins = Jared Camins-Esakov, American Numismatic Society and elsewhere
19:12 collum Garry Collum - Kenton County Public Library
19:12 * wizzyrea Liz Rea, NEKLS (lurking)
19:12 * jcamins is also just listening
19:13 dpavlin Dobrica Pavlinusic, FFZG, Croatia
19:13 Nate Nate Curulla; ByWater Solutions
19:13 rhcl Greg Lawson - Rolling Hills Consolidated Library
19:13 chris chris cormack, RM 3.4, only sorta here got a toddler to get ready for kindergarten
19:15 fredericd Frédéric Demians, Tamil
19:15 * cait Katrin Fischer, BSZ
19:16 gmcharlt ok
19:16 davi Davi Diaz, worker for
19:16 gmcharlt I believe that that the first two agenda items amount to the same thing
19:16 cait just listening
19:17 thd Sorry for the rapid agenda construction.
19:17 gmcharlt i.e., framing a question to be decided by vote or other means on the question of whether to change the license for Koha 3.4
19:17 thd I had misremembered the date as 16 July for the meeting.
19:17 gmcharlt as near as I can tell, the following options exist or have been proposed
19:17 gmcharlt namely
19:17 gmcharlt * status quo (GPL 2 or later)
19:17 gmcharlt * GPL3
19:18 gmcharlt * GPL3 or later
19:18 gmcharlt * AGPL3
19:18 gmcharlt * AGPL3 or later
19:18 gmcharlt since this issue could be discussed pretty much indefinitely
19:18 davi being it a web application, IMHO we should vote to use "AGPL v3 or later"
19:19 gmcharlt I suggest that we use a modified format for this meeting
19:19 jwagner Forgive me for treading over old ground -- I haven't been able to keep up with all the messages.  Is the Berkeley license somewhere in there, or has it been considered?
19:19 gmcharlt namely allot time for each of the options; time for proponents to speak, and time for opponents to speak
19:19 gmcharlt no, the Berkeley license has not been brought up to my knowledge
19:20 atz jwagner: not afaik
19:20 jwagner Should it be?
19:20 slef jwagner: I think downgrading GPL2+ contributions to BSD may be difficult. Some past contributors (do we still have Steve Tonneson or pate code in there?) are not generally around.
19:20 atz jwagner: also, no, imho
19:21 thd jwagner, we can only use a license for the software as a whole which every contributor who has ever been approves or one which can be upgraded from the present license
19:21 davi BSD licenses are supported for example by Microsoft, as they can convert software under such license on "privative software", forking and embedding it in their Windows and so on
19:21 davi GPL allow the same in web applications
19:21 davi AGPL tries to avoid it in web applications
19:22 atz i think allotted time is a good strategy
19:22 atz otherwise we're here forever
19:22 gmcharlt jwagner: if you want to propose it on the mailing lists, fine
19:22 gmcharlt so, boiling it down to three
19:22 gmcharlt 1. GPL3/GPL3+
19:22 jwagner No, I was just trying to understand the differences.
19:22 gmcharlt 2. AGPL3/APLG3+
19:22 thd jwagner: work under the three clause BSD license can be included and is included within Koha.  The distinction is about the overall license.
19:22 gmcharlt 3. status quo
19:23 gmcharlt so unless there are objections with the format, I would like somebody who wants to advocate for GPL3 to spend five minutes doing so
19:23 gmcharlt followed by five minutes pro-AGPL3
19:23 gmcharlt then five-minutes antii-AGPL3
19:23 gmcharlt then five-minutes anti-GPL3
19:23 slef I think we should say "3. GPL2+, as before" just in case someone who doesn't know Latin thinks we mean Status Quo the band ;-)
19:23 brendan @time
19:23 munin brendan: Error: "time" is not a valid command.
19:24 gmcharlt we can do pro-/anti status quo (GPL2+) as well
19:24 thd do I understand the format to then decide between the subparts of 2 or 3 if chosen?
19:24 thd Sorry you are stating a format for discussion not for voting.
19:24 gmcharlt right
19:24 gmcharlt voting is a separate agenda item
19:25 davi Lot of people have not read the licenses, so they can vote at 'random'
19:25 gmcharlt and (I would argue) we can decide on the means for a vote hear, but not take the actual vote during this meeting
19:25 gmcharlt so ... since I thus far haven't heard any major objections to the format ...
19:25 slef davi, would you like voters to pass a qualification/comprehension test first?
19:25 joetho I have tried to educate myself on this topic in general, and have found it to be very challenging.
19:25 gmcharlt would a proponent of GPL3/GPL3+ care to advocate for it?
19:26 davi We can encourage education, as much as possible
19:26 pianohack left #koha
19:26 thd joetho: I will try to find time post a summary of what the lawyer at SFLC has reported before whatever date we fix for an actual vote.
19:27 slef You know, I'm not sure if I'm a proponent of GPL3/GPL3+ or not.
19:27 slef I've spent most time considering GPL2 v AGPL3 so far.
19:27 thd I could speak in favour of GPL 3+ but not at the expense of AGPL 3+
19:28 chris_n my only motive for promoting GPL3+ would be as a means to get to AGPL3+
19:28 davi I could speak in favour of AGPL 3+ if you want
19:29 gmcharlt ok
19:29 gmcharlt since the most of the discussion has been around the AGPL3
19:29 gmcharlt we'll pass over pro-GPL3
19:29 thd Let me state that GPL 3 provides everything which AGPL 3 provides except clause 13 for remote network use.
19:29 gmcharlt and start with pro-AGPL3/AGPL3+
19:29 davi thd+
19:30 davi clause 13 is key for a web application
19:30 gmcharlt so, thd or davi, please go ahead
19:30 gregb joined #koha
19:30 tomascohe left #koha
19:30 thd after you davi please procede
19:30 davi ok
19:31 davi It is said even GPLv3+ allow locking users of a web application
19:31 davi as it allow the source code not be published
19:31 davi because there is not actual _distribution_ of the application.
19:31 davi The application is a service.
19:31 davi A web site or web application.
19:32 davi The AGPL v3 + tries to solve this problem by
19:32 CGI112 chris_n: can I talk to you about labels and barcodes?
19:32 chris_n CGI112: after the meeting
19:32 davi forcing to publish the source code of the web application
19:32 davi The AGPL v3 does not talk about the data side of the web application as
19:33 davi it is better controlled by the Term of Service of the site
19:33 davi The license, in this case the AGPL, talk about the Copyright of the source code of the web application
19:33 davi The Terms of Service of the specific site, talks about
19:33 davi the right to use the personal or not personal data there.
19:34 davi So, AGPL v3+ is not enough
19:34 davi but is is needed
19:34 davi to cover the freedom of the source code part of the web application.
19:34 davi GPL v3+ does not cover this as it does not include the clause 13
19:35 davi AGPL v3+ is just GPL v3+ with the addition of the clause 13
19:35 davi Clause 13 was added just to cover it, as it was not allowed in GPL v3 by
19:35 davi big players as Google and so on
19:35 davi <end>
19:35 owen How would an AGPLv3+ license have prevented LibLime from putting customers on LEK?
19:36 slef owen: it wouldn't.
19:36 wizzyrea it wouldn't prevent them from doing that, but it would prevent them from not releasing the code for LEK, right?
19:36 davi right
19:36 thd owen: LibLime would have done what LibLime would have done under kados
19:36 owen Not even that, it would require that someone pay to sue them wouldn't it?
19:36 slef wizzyrea: we'd need one of their customers to break rank and extract the code for us, though.
19:36 slef s/customers/users/
19:36 wizzyrea which I'm sure we could do, if we could look at it.
19:36 wizzyrea < doesn't have LEK anyway
19:37 gmcharlt ....
19:37 davi Any copyright holder can sue
19:37 gmcharlt ok, five minutes pro-AGPL3 are up
19:37 gmcharlt time for five minutes anti-AGPL3
19:37 thd owen: the advantage which AGPL 3 would have provided is that kados would not have been able to use hiding the code as a weapon against competition
19:37 slef AGPLv3 does not do what it was proposed for: it does not provide protection against software as a service providers customising it and locking users in.
19:38 brendan what are the know loopholes with AGPL3
19:38 slef There is more than one way to skin a cat. There is more than one way to lock in a user.
19:38 owen thd: He would have been able to hide the code for as long as it took for someone to mount a protest
19:38 atz While AGPL has been released and seen some adoption, it has yet to be tested by any significant enforcement cases.
19:38 davi slef, any evidence?
19:38 brendan good point atz
19:38 slef Even now, with GPL2+, it's easier to lock someone in by locking in their data.
19:38 davi atz, GPL was not tested up to years later
19:39 slef We should win the easy battles, like data portability, before jumping into AGPLv3.
19:39 davi We can jump already to AGPLv3
19:39 slef AGPL3 is not well understood by community expert lawyers yet.
19:39 thd owen: kados would likely have been difficult as that was his tendency at the time but would have been more constrained in how he chose to be difficult.
19:39 slef The drafting process was awful (as it was for GPL3+) and so hard to use that questions I'm almost sure were raised during drafting are met with comments like "I don't know that anyone's brought the issue up before" (one of Aaron's emails to thd)
19:40 davi AGPLv3 is used by big players as Canonical (Ubuntu), SugarCRM,
19:40 davi
19:40 thd slef is correct about the expert lawyers and AGPL 3
19:40 davi and others
19:40 owen So a LEK scenario under AGPL3 only becomes less likely because of an increased fear of enforcement?
19:40 slef The liability market is a horrible idea which favours unethical gamblers, in that they have the lowest costs (because they do the bare minimum) and so the best return.
19:40 davi thd, Nobody understood very well the GPL when it began to be used either
19:41 slef There may also be repository management work to do before we adopt it, as it seems we may have to include various perl modules in the Corresponding Source.
19:41 davi Under sleft rationale it would be better change to use the BSD
19:41 slef It depends on "a general prevailing reasonableness among contributors" and I hope we can acknowledge, sadly, we have seen in the last two years, that isn't always the case.
19:41 davi and anyone do what the want, forking and locking if the want
19:41 davi That would increase creativity
19:41 slef I hope that there is reasonableness, but let's stick with our current, better-understood licence and focus on the other battles.
19:42 thd owen: yes less likely, and he would not have a legal defence for hiding the code.
19:42 atz let's also say that AGPL license conversion introduces actual work to be done.
19:42 slef Like data downloads, like easier contributions back to koha-community.
19:42 chris if the overwhelming opinion is not agpl3, then i would definitely want to upgrade to gpl3+
19:42 gmcharlt ok
19:42 gmcharlt five minutes are up for anti-AGPL3
19:42 gmcharlt second try - anybody want to make the pro-GPL3 case?
19:42 owen 1. Withhold code. 2. Wait for protest. 3. Fight protest. 4. Release code after so long that you can't integrate it easily anymore.
19:43 chris i can
19:43 gmcharlt ok, chris, go for it
19:43 atz "It's like GPL2, only better!"
19:43 chris exactly :)
19:43 davi Under slef rationale we should allow _any_ license as it is compatible with the current source code, "to allow more contributions".   So the license we use is not main, but the quantity of contributions we can get.
19:43 chris it provides protection against patent deals the like of M$ and novel
19:43 chris_n owen: 3b. loose protest, pay bucks
19:44 owen chris_n: Maybe, and still 4.
19:44 davi chris, AGPL can also protect againts patents, as AGPL = GPL + clause 13
19:44 owen davi: We're listening to chris right now
19:45 chris can i finish?
19:45 davi sorry
19:45 chris it also makes tivoization much harder, do people know what that is?
19:45 tajoli no
19:45 davi yes
19:45 slef patents are an interesting one, but software is not patentable as such here (in theory), so I'd prefer to see a patent GPL instead, but there isn't one yet.  I have some sympathy with those who are concerned by that.
19:45 chris its when people release code that has 'anti-features' that shut itself down when it detects modification
19:45 owen
19:45 slef Tivoization is the creation of a system that incorporates software under the terms of a copyleft software license, but uses hardware to prevent users from running modified versions of the software on that hardware. Richard Stallman coined the term and believes this practice denies users some of the freedom that the GNU General Public License (GNU GPL) was designed to protect...
19:45 slef
19:46 chris yep
19:46 davi AGPL = GPL + clause 13,   so it also protect against tivoization
19:46 chris to my mind gplv3 is closing loopholes so taht the spirit of gplv2 is protected
19:46 owen davi: We're listening to chris right now
19:46 davi sorry
19:48 chris i see it as a step in the right direction
19:48 slef[…]-guide-gplv3.html also mentions anti-DRM/TPM as a major change.
19:48 chris yes, that is a good point
19:48 gmcharlt ok, thank you
19:49 gmcharlt any takers for arguing anti-GPL3 ?
19:49 thd I would just like to raise a general point about the or later version option.
19:49 davi me
19:49 davi GPLv3+ is great option
19:49 davi yes
19:49 slef Digital rights management (DRM) refers to access control technologies used by publishers to limit usage of digital media or devices. In contrast to copy protection, which only attempts to prohibit unauthorized copies of media or files, digital rights management enables the publisher to control what can and cannot be done with a...
19:49 davi but
19:49 thd ... after anti-GPL 3 I can raise my point
19:49 davi GPLv3+ does not cover the web application case
19:49 davi that is because the clause 13 was added in AGPLv3+
19:50 davi It was not added in GPLv3+ because big players did not wanted it in the main GPL license
19:50 owen I would like to hear anti-GPL3 arguments based on what it contains rather than what it lacks compared to AGPLv3
19:50 slef Well, one argument of mine still applies to the GPL3
19:50 davi GPLv3 is a great license, if we talk about freedom and community
19:50 davi no bad issues here, aside the one exposed above
19:51 atz re: "or later"...  the only liability is if we think a later GPL would *weaken* protections.  A serious consideration, but I regard this as highly unlikely.
19:51 slef The drafting was inequitable and the same mix of formal and invective wording exists in GPL3.  But the wording mixes in GPL2 to a lesser extent, too.
19:52 atz we cannot anticipate all possible evolutions in law, but by leaving open a later GPL version, we can protect ourselves against them (and make future license changes easier)
19:53 davi atz++
19:53 chris i agree
19:53 slef The strongest argument against "or later" is that FSF is undemocratic and could be captured after RMS, but I think the benefits outweigh that risk.
19:54 * atz nod.
19:54 thd slef's identification of bugs and week points in the license are why we should always use or later invocation.
19:54 davi slef,    There is a note in the license about "while the license keep the same freedom spirit" or something like that
19:54 davi to about any problem in that case.
19:54 slef But then, I'm happy with Expat for some things, so I might be too liberal for some of you. ;-)
19:54 gmcharlt ok, five minutes are up for anti-GPL3+
19:55 slef davi, I'm not sure if that will stick. We don't agree if AGPL3 is in the same freedom spirit of not, for example.
19:55 gmcharlt that leaves us with pro/anti-status quo, i.e., GPL2+
19:55 thd We may have to wait 15 years for motivation at FSF to produce GPL 4 or AGPL 4 but we should not close off the option.
19:55 chris bus will try to get back online from there
19:56 davi I could talk a little about anti-GPL2+
19:56 davi 1.- upgrade reason
19:56 slef Pro-GPL2: it doesn't seem broke yet, it leaves the upgrade trapdoor open and requires no extra work from us.
19:56 slef sorry, pro-GPL2+
19:56 atz good reasons
19:56 davi 2.- use a license which cover the web application case, as Koha is actually a web application
19:57 davi <end>
19:57 slef That's all I have pro-GPL2+, too, really.
19:58 gmcharlt and it seems like davi mixed in anti-GPL2+ as well
19:58 CGI197 joined #koha
19:58 davi yep
19:58 davi sorry
19:58 slef As I wrote before, I think I might be in the GPL3+ camp, but I've been focusing on my (years-old, oft-asked) AGPL3 concerns.
19:58 CGI197
19:59 thd I would argue pro GPL 2+ against *GPL only option.
19:59 CGI197 hii
19:59 atz I think i'm w/ thd.
19:59 chris_n +1
20:00 thd Anyone can create a GPL 3 or  AGPL 3 build of Koha under the existing license.
20:00 davi I think we should allow any compatible license, to get as much contributions as possible, as freedom is not main actually
20:00 davi contribution quantity is
20:00 CGI197 j'ai un probleme concernant l'import des notice
20:01 atz I don't think that is a clear approach.
20:01 gmcharlt ok
20:01 davi thd, They can also fork and lock Koha in a cloud
20:01 davi ;)
20:01 gmcharlt having had our mini-debate
20:01 thd If we choose, GPL 3 or AGPL 3 only, without the or later version option, we will never have the choice of GPL 4 or AGPL 4.
20:01 CGI197 left #koha
20:01 gmcharlt I think (to be reductive) that the choice of options remains much the same
20:01 davi thd, I propose the "or later" for sure
20:02 gmcharlt however, I would like to get the sense of the meeting as to whether
20:02 thd davi: I merely advocate any plus choice over any only one version choice.
20:02 davi thd++
20:02 rhcl agree w/ thd on that point
20:02 gmcharlt the options to vote on should be, as far as the GPL or AGPL are concerned
20:02 thd davi: I am with you on AGPL 3+ if it has not been clear.
20:02 gmcharlt version [2,3] or version [2,3] or later
20:02 gmcharlt so to make it concrete
20:03 davi thd, it has been clear,  AGPL 3+ is the best option for a web application as Koha
20:03 gmcharlt may I have +1/0/-1 on going with the "version n or later" for GPL/AGPL options that get voted on?
20:03 slef +1
20:03 davi +1
20:03 Colin +1
20:04 thd +1
20:04 wizzyrea +1
20:04 rhcl +1
20:04 owen +1
20:04 atz +1
20:04 brendan +1
20:04 joetho +1
20:04 slef and can the AGPL 3+ lovers keep it in their pants for a few minutes, please? ;-) else this will degenerate
20:04 tajoli +1
20:04 atz by general consensus, let's say
20:04 chris +1
20:04 sekjal +1
20:04 collum +1
20:04 chris_n +1
20:04 thd slef :)
20:05 gmcharlt ok
20:05 gmcharlt then, as far as optoins that have been signfiicantly discussed
20:05 gmcharlt it looks like we have
20:05 gmcharlt 0. GPL2+
20:05 gmcharlt 1. GPL3+
20:05 gmcharlt 2. AGPL3+
20:05 atz method of voting?
20:05 davi (2)
20:06 gmcharlt as far as the method of voting is concerned
20:06 gmcharlt I propose that it be done in a recordable fashion
20:06 gmcharlt e.g., on the wiki
20:06 thd gmcharlt: which methods have you eliminated?
20:06 davi wiki++
20:07 tajoli for this i prefer e-mail
20:07 gmcharlt thd: none, so far - we're discussing the options
20:07 davi email++, because it is more accesible
20:07 thd exactly
20:07 gmcharlt and in anyevent, the vote needs to be publicized well in advance
20:07 slef Are we voting in a division or trying to build a consensus?
20:07 thd are not all voting methods recordable by some means?
20:08 thd slef:?
20:08 gmcharlt and the voting period sufficiently long, particularly since people have summer and winter vacations to deal with
20:08 chris_n thd: wiki voting could be tampered with
20:08 atz i think an asynchronous but limited-duration voting method makes sense
20:08 thd chris_n: there is no tamper proof method
20:08 atz if we were to do email, is the dev-list the right venue? general list?
20:08 gmcharlt slef: well, that depends
20:08 tajoli Who can vote ?
20:09 gmcharlt is a consensus achievable?
20:09 slef thd: I would hope we could vote towards consensus, but koha has generally tended to use a division early.
20:09 thd I think that tajoli has the more interesting question
20:09 davi Maybe I should not allowed to vote as I have not contributed to Koha (yet), patch pending.
20:10 thd slef: What voting method provides voting towards consensus if that would be good?
20:10 tajoli Personaly I think that a vote by e-mail (on mailng-list) is more easy to say and to do
20:10 thd maybe davi is holding out for AGPL 3.
20:10 chris I don't think patch count is useful in thus context
20:10 chris_n this is a question of what licensing the project will accept so everyone with a vested interest in Koha should be able to vote
20:11 owen Agreed
20:11 chris_n "vested interest" has already been defined
20:11 chris_n during our deliberations on organization
20:11 atz yeah, i think there are legit stakeholders beyond devs... but i would hate to see 50 never-seen-before ppl chime in.
20:11 thd chris_n: I agree, however, the developers are going to use whatever license they choose.
20:11 atz if it goes there, i think we review our methods.
20:11 davi good, so I will vote
20:11 chris_n thd: but we don't have to accept
20:12 chris_n their code
20:12 tajoli I think could vote everyone register in koha-lists (also not in english)
20:12 thd However, developers already have a choice of making their own build.
20:12 chris_n which is fine
20:12 slef thd: I think you let each person vote block, stand-aside, reservation or agreement on each option, then look whether to remove a weak option and if you can convert votes.  I'm trying to find a concise process description.
20:13 gmcharlt slef: preference voting, in other words?
20:13 chris Stv
20:13 slef gmcharlt: with revoting allowed.
20:14 davi I think we should do a strong anti-AGPL campaign, as that license could be dangerous (FUD)
20:14 davi also get donations to support that campaign
20:15 gmcharlt davi: um, what?  that doesn't seem to be on topic
20:15 davi With money you can do great things ;)
20:15 thd slef: I like the idea of revoting to consensus.
20:15 davi oops, sorry
20:15 * chris_n like's the revote to consensus idea also
20:16 atz i like the idea of a definite process w/ a max duration.
20:16 chris Yup under some time constraint
20:16 atz i mean, consensus is great.  progress is better.
20:16 slef I agree with atz that there will need to be a max duration.
20:16 tajoli +1 on max duration
20:16 davi atz++, playing the "try to convent votes via FUD or similar" is a risky way to follow
20:16 thd slef: I presume that revoting does not preclude definite resolution after a set time.
20:17 chris_n +1 on max duration
20:17 slef thd: no. For example, debian allows revoting, but it doesn't publish the votes until the end, which hinders consensus-building.
20:17 gmcharlt ok
20:17 davi +1 on max duration
20:17 gmcharlt putting aside the question of how votes get cast
20:18 gmcharlt we have two points that I'd like to get the sense of the meeting on
20:18 gmcharlt #1 electorate
20:18 thd slef: there is no need to know who voted what to help form a consensus.
20:18 slef I'm sorry - my old reference has gone offline and I can't find another one.
20:18 gmcharlt electorate to consist of all individuals who self-identify as KOha stateholders
20:18 slef thd: no, but you need to know if there are blocks (and preferably the reason)
20:18 gmcharlt +1/0/-1 ?
20:18 slef what did we do for the HLT association vote?
20:19 chris +1
20:19 chris_n slef: we only required non-anonymity
20:19 gregb +1
20:19 chris_n +1
20:19 collum +1
20:19 davi +1
20:19 jwagner +1
20:20 chris I think that must be required too
20:20 Colin +1
20:20 tajoli +1 (non-anonymity)
20:20 owen +1
20:20 slef +1
20:20 wizzyrea +1
20:20 rhcl +1
20:20 sekjal +1 (where 'self-identify' implies non-anonymity)
20:20 gmcharlt ok, let's do that explicitly
20:21 gmcharlt electorate = all people who self-identify as Koha stakeholders; voting to be non-anonymous
20:21 gmcharlt +1/0/-1
20:21 chris_n +1
20:21 wizzyrea +1
20:21 davi +1
20:21 owen +1
20:21 jwagner +1
20:21 thd +1
20:21 tajoli +1
20:21 gregb +1
20:21 collum +1
20:21 rhcl +1
20:21 slef +1
20:22 sekjal +1
20:22 Colin +1
20:22 joetho +1
20:22 * chris_n wonders how we prevent ballot-box stuffing
20:22 atz +1 (previous proviso notwithstanding)
20:22 chris +1
20:22 gmcharlt chris_n: it's never been a problem in the past
20:22 thd We would need to be mindful of votes being bought if the stakes are high enough such as licensing.
20:22 chris Its easily spotted
20:22 slef chris_n: appoint a good retuning officer
20:22 gmcharlt ok, next question
20:23 atz yeah, i think we leave it open but if it doesn't pass the sniff test, reconsider methodology
20:23 chris Yep
20:23 chris_n gmcharlt: but this is a high-stake issue
20:23 atz so was the HLT question
20:23 gmcharlt chris_n: they've all been, recently
20:23 gmcharlt so next question
20:24 gmcharlt voting is to start at a specific time (to be annonced at least three weeks in advance) and end at a specific time (at least two weeks after voting starts)
20:24 gmcharlt +1/0/-1
20:24 chris_n +1
20:24 davi +1
20:24 tajoli +1
20:24 thd +1
20:24 atz +1
20:24 collum +1
20:24 jwagner +1
20:24 gregb +1
20:24 rhcl +1
20:24 wizzyrea +1
20:24 joetho +1
20:24 slef +1 would prefer 3+ weeks
20:24 Colin +1
20:25 davi (3+ weeks)   ++
20:25 owen +1
20:25 sekjal +1
20:25 gmcharlt we have a motion for the voting duration to be at least three weeks
20:25 slef some have 2-3 week hols
20:25 gmcharlt +1/0/-1
20:25 slef +1
20:25 davi +1
20:25 wizzyrea +1
20:25 tajoli +1
20:25 owen +1
20:25 joetho +1 at least 3 wks
20:25 chris_n +1
20:25 collum +1
20:26 chris +1 3 for both periods
20:26 jwagner +1
20:26 Colin +1
20:26 gmcharlt ok
20:26 atz slef: must be nice.
20:26 thd +1
20:26 sekjal +1
20:26 gmcharlt next question
20:26 gmcharlt voting is to be done using some form of preference voting ( with revoting allowed during the voting period
20:27 slef atz: depends if  it's all paid
20:27 gmcharlt +1/0/-1
20:27 thd +1
20:27 davi reading link
20:27 owen +1
20:27 Colin +1
20:27 wizzyrea +1
20:27 chris_n +1
20:27 slef +1
20:27 jwagner +1
20:27 collum +1
20:27 davi +1
20:28 gregb +1
20:28 rhcl +1
20:28 tajoli +1
20:28 chris +1
20:28 joetho +1
20:28 sekjal +1
20:29 richard joined #koha
20:29 richard hi
20:29 brendan +1
20:29 gmcharlt ok
20:30 gmcharlt I will now open the floor to five minutes for any discussion of *which* preference voting scheme to use
20:30 thd I suggest that we have a formal method of identifying affiliation to more easily identify people buying voters
20:30 davi what communication channel is more used by Koha electorate?
20:30 owen left #koha
20:31 tajoli e-mail, i think
20:31 thd By formal method maybe I merely mean that people should state their relation to Koha.
20:32 gmcharlt hold on
20:32 gmcharlt not quite what I meant
20:32 slef I request a deferment to email on this for max 1 week to koha-devel becuase I can't find a good description right now.
20:32 thd We could be inviting the entire internet to vote.
20:32 joetho we already agreed on non-anonymous voting.
20:32 gmcharlt i.e., IRV, STV, Condorcet, etc.
20:32 atz thd: like i said, if it turns up 50 never-seen-before voters, we revisit our options.
20:33 davi e-mail can be easily spoofed, so we should at least check back as mailing list do
20:33 thd joetho: giving an email address for many people is not anonymous.
20:33 davi We could use a mailing list to count vote
20:33 davi vote = subscription
20:33 joetho I think it is reasonable to restrict voting to developers (easy to decide who's who) and users (not so easy)
20:33 atz davi: the spoofee will know if they see somebody post pretending to be them
20:33 davi ack
20:33 chris Yes
20:33 tajoli also I vote = subscription of one mailing list
20:34 chris I dont
20:34 gmcharlt slef: the dferment you propose - is that regarding the preference voting scheme we employ?
20:34 chris Non anonymity is enough
20:34 chris To spot anomalies
20:34 thd chris: can we make that somewhat strong non-anonymity?
20:35 chris_n ip logging too maybe?
20:35 davi IP login ++
20:35 davi and check against voter ID
20:35 davi manually
20:35 rhcl Does an organization (library) get only one vote? Does all of Tech Services get to vote? +director?
20:35 slef gmcharlt: yes. o  m
20:35 davi one organisation = one vote
20:36 davi one developer = one vote
20:36 chris I don't stating relationship to koha is too much to ask
20:36 davi one organization = one user ===> one vote
20:36 slef network problems here, sorry
20:36 gmcharlt rhcl: davi: actually, we already discussed that when we voted on the electorate
20:36 chris I don't think even
20:36 chris Eg
20:36 gmcharlt "electorate = all people who self-identify as Koha stakeholders; voting to be non-anonymous
20:36 gmcharlt "
20:36 joetho "organization" =  multi-branch consortium = one vote?
20:36 thd chris: That is exactly what I was requesting. Have a blank box required field for stating relationship to Koha.
20:36 atz right
20:37 chris Yep
20:37 gmcharlt so to make it explicit
20:37 gmcharlt each individual person has one vote; +1/0/-1 ?
20:37 chris +1
20:37 davi joetho, Me being to hand does not count as two votes. Me counts as one vote.
20:37 collum +1
20:37 tajoli I suggest: call all admis on mailing list connect with Koha. We list all e-mail. Only those e-mails can vote
20:37 atz i am uninterested in determining whether an organization begins here or there, or who is really a member of it.  if they are active Koha ppl that the rest of us recognize, that's all I care about.
20:38 chris_n +1
20:38 chris Atz++
20:38 Colin +1
20:38 slef gmcharlt: of the list given, I would say Conddorcet+Schulze, but that's suboptimal too
20:38 collum atz++
20:38 thd atz: We had 2000 of them last time.  Do you recognise that many?
20:38 davi +1
20:38 atz thd: in short, no
20:39 jwagner By "recognize" do you mean active developers?  What about the libraries who use the system but don't actively participate on the lists?
20:39 joetho atz: I am thinking of potential problems here with ballotbox stuffing, or complaints of unfairness. No, it hasn't happened yet, but the events of the last year or two indicate this as a possibility to me.
20:39 chris If they put down their relationship
20:40 chris No issues
20:40 chris Bus stop brb
20:40 thd chris+1
20:40 davi The bigger the company is, the more employer they have, the more votes and so power on decision they have
20:40 gmcharlt joetho: there have been no cases I know of of ballot-box-stuffing during Koha project votes in my memory
20:40 chris_n gmcharlt: have we a determination on the last explicit?
20:41 gmcharlt chris_n: not yet; let me float it again
20:41 joetho I worry too much, then.
20:41 atz jwagner: not just devs.  but they should be recognizable, not just Xayenrgq93134@yahoo.  i think any Koha library has a stake.
20:41 collum Some developers may do work for more than one company.
20:41 jwagner That's fine. I think that the using libraries have a stake & didn't want them blocked from participation.
20:42 gmcharlt electorate = all individual people who self-identify as Koha stakeholders; voting to be non-anonymous; voter to state nature of stakeholdership during voting
20:42 atz collum: that's the kind of thing i am uninterested in.
20:42 gmcharlt +1/0/-1 ?
20:42 collum atz: exactly
20:42 chris_n +1
20:42 slef +1
20:42 tajoli +1
20:42 collum +1
20:42 Colin +1
20:42 davi +1
20:42 jwagner +1
20:42 brendan +1
20:42 thd +1
20:43 atz +1
20:43 joetho +1
20:43 thd I think that relationship should be a blank box not a drop down list.
20:43 jcamins is now known as jcamins_a
20:43 atz thd: sure
20:43 * chris_n thinks it would behoove libraries and others to educate potential voters on the issues prior to voting rather than simply "suggesting" a vote
20:44 sekjal +1
20:44 davi expose rationales exposed above
20:44 davi chris_n ++
20:44 * jwagner is assuming the ballot will clearly state the issues
20:44 chris_n many in the potential electorate will know little to nothing about the issues
20:44 thd chris_n: That is our task to point them to the discussion.
20:44 chris +1
20:44 atz jwagner: the choices more than the issues.
20:44 davi chris_n++
20:45 davi the options and rationales
20:45 atz yeah, i think people need to be responsible voters.  but i think the koha community has been thus far.
20:45 gmcharlt ok
20:45 thd The ballot should link people to discussions about the issues as it had last time.
20:45 gmcharlt some more procedural issues to slog through
20:45 chris_n thd: I think we will require the assistance of libraries, etc to accomplish that
20:45 atz this is a voting mechanism, not a time for persuasive args
20:45 slef Appoint a good RO, let them weed if it matters.
20:46 slef atz: it should be both.
20:46 gmcharlt item: specific preference vorting method to be deferred to discussion on koha mailing list; discussion to take at least one week but no more than two
20:46 chris_n +1
20:46 tajoli +1
20:46 jwagner +1
20:46 slef +1
20:46 chris +1
20:46 joetho +1
20:46 davi +1
20:46 Colin +1
20:46 rhcl +1
20:46 atz slef: i don't mind a *brief* summary or pointers to discussion, but i don't want a big multi-page for/against on the ballot.
20:47 collum +1
20:47 * chris_n agrees
20:47 davi atz++,  short rationales as the exposed above
20:47 slef atz: I think voters will tire before that and the ballot's not the place, no.
20:47 jwagner atz, but a _concise_ summary should be posted somewhere
20:47 gmcharlt item: initial ballot to be proposal will have following items 1. GPL2+ (status quote) 2. GPL3+ 3. AGPL3+
20:47 chris_n +1
20:47 chris +1
20:47 slef -1
20:48 reed joined #koha
20:48 jwagner +1
20:48 thd +1
20:48 davi +1
20:48 Colin +1
20:48 tajoli +1
20:48 rhcl +1
20:48 slef I hate that latin. Put "as currently" or something
20:48 collum +1
20:48 davi (short rationales in ballot) ++
20:48 slef actually, gmcharlt just flubbed it
20:48 gmcharlt slef: indeed I did
20:48 chris_n so much for latin
20:49 slef so you're all voting for gibberish ;-)
20:49 thd :)
20:49 davi (short rationales in ballot) ++ , in pro of education and information to voters
20:50 atz voter education does not happen *at* the voting booth.  discussion is it's own thread
20:50 thd gmcharlt: please suspend the flubbed vote before we will end up voting on a hexidecimal ballot.
20:50 Colin changes vote to ita vero
20:50 davi ok
20:50 chris_n Colin: lol
20:50 gmcharlt item: by two weeks from now, brief descriptions of the ballot options to be prepared; where brief = 500 words in English; descriptions to be written by a known proponent(s) of the option
20:50 * thd changes to -1
20:50 gmcharlt thd: seriously?
20:50 chris_n +1
20:50 slef gmcharlt: 150 + a link!
20:51 gmcharlt yes, I meant GPL2+ (current license used by Koha)
20:51 gmcharlt ok
20:51 slef a wiki link
20:51 davi 150++
20:51 davi 500 too long
20:51 thd gmcharlt: reading the first item with the second item for ballot content is fine
20:51 slef or does that risk vandalism?
20:51 gmcharlt item: by two weeks from now, brief descriptions of the ballot options to be prepared; where brief = 150 words in English + link to wiki; descriptions to be written by a known proponent(s) of the option
20:52 atz wiki always risks vandalism, but authors can always revert to correct state
20:52 chris_n +1
20:52 jwagner +1
20:52 slef +1
20:52 davi +1
20:52 Colin +1
20:52 thd -1
20:52 thd oops
20:52 tajoli +1
20:52 thd =1
20:52 thd +1
20:52 atz +1 sounds good
20:52 collum +1
20:52 bgkriegel left #koha
20:52 slef revoting in practice, demostrated by thd
20:53 * thd misread characters for words
20:53 thd :)
20:53 davi that was vote correction actually
20:53 gmcharlt ok, I would like at least one person for each ballot option to identify themselves as volunteers to write the descriptions
20:53 gmcharlt starting first with GPL2+ (current license)
20:54 gmcharlt ok, sitting on that for the moment
20:54 thd I volunteer to write all descriptions and let everyone argue about improving the descriptions on the mailing list
20:54 chris_n thd++
20:54 druthb joined #koha
20:54 davi thd++
20:54 slef I offer gpl2+, even if I'm unsure, as I saw the benefits above
20:55 gmcharlt I'd prefer that an advocate of each do the wording for each option
20:55 davi I will review the AGPL v3 +
20:55 gmcharlt slef: thanks - one volunteer to do GPL2+
20:55 gmcharlt davi: thanks - one volunteer to do GPL3+
20:55 thd I offer to write at least AGPL 3+ description
20:55 davi as anti-tivoization and anti-pattent is also in AGPLv3+
20:55 gmcharlt thd: thanks - now two volunteers to do AGPL3+
20:56 gmcharlt davi: thanks - one volunteer to do AGPL3+ /correction
20:56 gmcharlt any volunteer for GPL3+ ?
20:56 thd Whoever writes them all descriptions should be available for comment on the mailing list.
20:56 davi gmcharlt, I volunteered to AGPLv3+ not for just GPLv3
20:57 gmcharlt davi: right, I corrected my statement
20:57 davi ack
20:57 chris thd: would you like to work with me on GPL3+ ?
20:57 thd I am happy to work with anyone.
20:57 davi What mainling list will be used to manage this discussion koha-devel AT ?
20:58 chris in that case, how about thd and chris for gpl3+
20:58 gmcharlt chris: thanks - charging ahead; two volunteers for GPL3+
20:58 gmcharlt item: discussion of all ballott issues, and the ballott itself, to take place on the main Koha mailing list (AKA the one)
20:59 thd I had planned to write a message summarising the options for the mailing list but that is a somewhat different task.
20:59 joetho +1 (with reminders of that to the other various lists?)
20:59 chris +1
20:59 chris_n +1
20:59 jwagner +1
20:59 tajoli I need to leave
20:59 tajoli +1
20:59 davi +1
20:59 tajoli bye
20:59 tajoli exit
20:59 Colin +1
21:00 thd +1
21:00 collum +1
21:00 slef 0
21:00 wizzyrea +1
21:00 slef tajoli: /quit
21:00 tajoli left #koha
21:01 sekjal I must also go.  cheers, all
21:01 sekjal left #koha
21:01 rhcl +1
21:01 gmcharlt item: minimum require announcement of the vote itself to be: emails to koha and koha-devel on a weekly basis prior to the vote, starting at least three weeks before vote; blog update on; placement in koha newsletter, and request to all "well known" Koha stakeholders to blog about it personally
21:01 davi +1
21:02 chris +1
21:02 atz +1 # certainly sufficient
21:02 collum +1
21:02 chris_n +1
21:02 thd +1
21:02 Colin +1
21:02 slef 0 (don't think "well known" is clear, but not vital)
21:02 jwagner 0 (don't think asking people to blog about it is necessary/desirable)
21:03 chris why not desirable
21:03 davi I think asking people to blog about it is desirable, but not a must
21:03 chris i can understand why not nessecary
21:03 chris but i cant spelt it
21:03 davi It is part of the education and discussion process
21:03 davi to form an opinion in voters
21:04 jwagner Yes, I don't object to the discussions & blogs, just to tying it into the formal motion
21:04 Colin in place of asking can we say encouraging?
21:04 gmcharlt item: minimum require announcement of the vote itself to be: emails to koha and koha-devel on a weekly basis prior to the vote, starting at least three weeks before vote; blog update on; placement in koha newsletter, and encouraging to all Koha stakeholders to blog about it personally
21:04 jwagner I'd say something like "encouraging all interested parties to discuss in whatever forum they want"
21:05 gmcharlt jwagner: I'm actually driving at something slightly different
21:05 slef waits to see if gmcharlt amends
21:05 atz at which point, i think it doesn't mean anything
21:05 gmcharlt discussion is needed, of course
21:05 jwagner gmcharlt, ?
21:05 chris its about the vote
21:05 chris publicising the vote
21:05 davi jwagner++
21:05 chris not the issues
21:05 gmcharlt but I'm more interested in ensuring that everybody who has an interest is aware that the vote is taking place in the first place
21:05 atz this is "hear ye, hear ye!  a koha vote shall be taken!"
21:05 thd +1
21:06 jwagner gmcharlt, yes, that I can agree with.
21:06 davi "encouraging all interested parties to discuss in whatever forum they want, for example blogs"
21:06 jwagner s/interested parties/Koha stakeholders for consistency
21:06 davi jwagner++
21:07 * atz suggests strike the whole latter clause
21:07 atz placement in koha newsletter.  (full stop)
21:08 davi I disagree, because encouraging discussion can not be a bad thing
21:08 thd Do we have a deadline for choosing the voting system etc. remembering that slef will be absent later this month?
21:09 atz this wasn't about discussion, it's about *annoucing* the vote.
21:09 davi ack
21:09 jwagner With that clarification, OK
21:09 jwagner I'm all for encouraging the discussion, just in a separate context
21:09 atz i think that's fair
21:09 thd atz: yes, but we need a ballot system before announcing the vote.
21:10 atz thd: yes and no.  it doesn't really change anything from here.  we still will pick the method via the list.
21:10 gmcharlt thd: ballot system was discussed above; outcome is that it will be discussed on koha ML for 1-2 weeks
21:11 thd gmcharlt: Yes that is my point.
21:11 atz thd: in point of fact, no we don't need a system before annnouncing.
21:11 thd If the 1-2 weeks starts now slef stated previously he would be mostly absent.
21:11 atz thd: ?
21:11 chris vote or not, ill be publicising the vote on my blog :)
21:12 chris for the 7 people who readit
21:12 slef no, I'm OK
21:12 thd nevermind
21:12 slef 2-weeks is just ok, s it turns out
21:12 thd if slef is available slef is available.
21:12 gmcharlt with selecting the ballot system and preparing the ballot itself
21:12 gmcharlt that would be ~2 weeks
21:13 gmcharlt i.e., 7/23 or so
21:13 CGI112 left #koha
21:13 slef any more I'm unpredictable
21:13 * atz nod
21:13 gmcharlt if we allow for some overlap
21:13 slef so please discuss early next week if you can
21:13 slef ;-)
21:13 gmcharlt shall we set the start of the vote period to Monday, AUgust 11?
21:14 atz seconded
21:14 gmcharlt and end September 1?
21:14 davi +1
21:14 chris +1
21:14 slef provisionally?
21:14 brendan +1
21:14 thd Did we not want to catch people who are not on holliday for the whole of August?
21:14 collum +1
21:14 Colin +1
21:14 joetho +1+1
21:15 jwagner +1
21:15 slef let next GM modify if needed?
21:15 slef 0
21:15 joetho whoops, that is just a plain (+1) for me
21:15 gmcharlt oops
21:15 jwagner thd raises a good point though -- I seem to remember that lots of European countries go on vacation in August.
21:15 gmcharlt I was looking at wrong month on calendar
21:16 gmcharlt let me try again
21:16 davi Maybe September 11 (start),, 1 October (end) would be a lot better
21:16 joetho ok, +1
21:16 davi or similar
21:16 joetho whoops I thought that was galen's item
21:17 joetho <--shutting up
21:17 slef davi is the new gmcharlt for joetho
21:17 gmcharlt heh
21:17 davi no comment
21:18 gmcharlt September 11th is a bit late, I think - how about 23 August => 12 September (four week voting period)
21:18 slef I don't mind on dates... all suck but 3 weeks take the edge off.
21:18 gmcharlt err (I can do math good today)
21:18 hdl left #koha
21:18 gmcharlt September 11th is a bit late, I think - how about 23 August => 19 September (four week voting period)
21:19 davi +1
21:19 * jwagner asks if gmcharlt can haz cheezburger? :-)
21:19 atz that should be plenty of time
21:19 gmcharlt jwagner: that would make two, today - I better not :)
21:19 davi +1   (4 weeks is OK to me)
21:19 thd +1
21:19 wizzyrea +1
21:19 jwagner +1
21:19 gregb +1
21:19 chris +1 on those dates
21:20 collum +1
21:20 slef 0
21:20 Colin +1
21:20 gmcharlt and as a possible final administrative item - time fo vote to be confirmed at next general meeting
21:21 jwagner Maybe with the voting method confirmed then too?
21:21 davi +1
21:21 gmcharlt jwagner: would be reconfirmed by that point, but yes
21:21 jwagner +1
21:21 Colin +1
21:21 davi explicit confirmation better IMHO
21:21 slef +1
21:21 thd +1 with jwagner's amendment
21:21 collum +1
21:22 gmcharlt ok - since this meeting has gone over two hours at this point - are there any procedural matters that urgently need to be disussed now?
21:22 atz i think we've tapped out this meeting
21:22 slef not here
21:23 slef zzzz
21:23 * jwagner is ready for supper
21:23 gmcharlt ok, thanks everybody
21:23 rhcl So huh, watcha having for supper? I'm an omnivore...
21:23 chris nope
21:23 jwagner Pork chops, I think...
21:23 atz by consensus, i think we're adjourned
21:23 slef Chalk pops
21:23 rhcl Pigs. I like pigs.
21:24 slef atz: by conduct
21:24 atz slef: indeed, both
21:24 jwagner Depends on how much energy it takes for me to walk into the kitchen & stare into the fridge :-)
21:24 wizzyrea I have meatloaf waiting for me, which sounds pedestrian, but I assure you, it's not.
21:24 * jwagner tries to envision meatloaf on wheels
21:24 slef wizzyrea: two out of three ain't bad
21:25 rhcl Somebody needs to invent a remotely controlled combination microwave/refrigerator.
21:25 wizzyrea slef: :P
21:25 gmcharlt I have three cats in my office
21:25 wizzyrea slef: you haven't had my meatloaf ;)
21:25 rhcl Are they good to eat?
21:25 jwagner I trust the cats aren't on the menu!
21:25 slef rhcl: that's your problem.
21:25 gmcharlt rhcl: too much fiber
21:25 gmcharlt ;)
21:26 * wizzyrea yawns
21:27 slef wizzyrea: bring some to nz, get done for biosecurity (if it's like uk)
21:27 chris worse slef
21:27 chris seriously, if you ahve food, declare it
21:27 wizzyrea I think I could reproduce it in NZ, with local stuff, no prob.
21:27 chris its not worth the $250 instant fine
21:27 chris per item
21:27 atz ouch
21:27 chris the sniffer dogs will find it
21:27 wizzyrea :D
21:28 slef for cereals too?
21:28 rhcl We have strawberries and cheese from some leftover group event yesterday.
21:28 chris declare everything
21:28 wizzyrea declare the crumbs in your backpack?
21:28 chris if you declare, chances are they will look and say, thats fine
21:28 chris if you dont declare it, you get the fine
21:28 wizzyrea argle!
21:28 chris plus the declare line is faster
21:28 chris i always take somethign to declare
21:28 slef I'll probably only hae geobars or something like that
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21:30 * collum smiles at the thought of meatloaf tax.
21:31 chris liv tyler famously got fined for an apple
21:31 slef the medicine/prescription-required thing is making me boggle but nz isn't alone on that
21:32 slef ow! Cadel has a cracked elbow
21:33 reed the biosecurity dogs are very cute tho
21:33 reed but they'll get you
21:34 slef combined customs+petting zoo?
21:34 gmcharlt @quote add <slef> combined customs+petting zoo?
21:34 munin gmcharlt: The operation succeeded.  Quote #84 added.
21:36 slef chambawamba!
21:37 chris yeah cute little beagles
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21:43 cait good night all
21:43 cait left #koha
21:43 chris night cait
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22:10 reed just musing further on Auckland airport arrivals -- it always puts me in a happy mood, cute beagles catching people with oranges, just got off the prison plane -- contrast to the other direction, arriving in america - lot's of cops with guns and so many young soldiers in transit
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22:34 jwagner Hey, pianohack -- meant to catch up with you earlier.  Are you still looking at that holds to pull mod?
22:34 pianohack jwagner: Yes, I am. What's up?
22:35 jwagner It might get a little complicated for multilibrary sites -- I think you do need to run it by some of them as a proposal first.  For instance, at one of my sites, the main branch runs the report for all branches and tells the others what to put in transit.  So limiting the report to that branch wouldn't work for them.
22:36 jwagner Others probably do run it by branch.
22:39 pianohack jwagner: That one site you mentioned must have independentbranches off, then
22:39 jwagner The one where the main branch runs it, yes.  That's a single system with multiple branches.
22:40 pianohack That's a doable adaptation; store it in a hidden syspref for non-independent branches (global for the entire system) and on a table column for independentbranches
22:40 jwagner I'm not clear enough on the day-to-day workflow to know if your proposed solution could work in a multilibrary setup.
22:41 jwagner I'd suggest writing it up as a concept and maybe putting it on the listserv so people who actually use the report can get a feel for how it might work.
22:43 jwagner Anyway, wanted to pass that on fyi.
22:44 jwagner And now I'm going to go have an evening :-)  G'night all.
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