IRC log for #koha, 2009-12-03

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
00:43 brendan @wunder 93117
00:43 munin brendan: The current temperature in Northwest Goleta, Goleta, California is 13.6�C (4:42 PM PST on December 02, 2009). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 71%. Dew Point: 8.0�C. Pressure: 29.90 in 1012.4 hPa (Falling).
00:50 chris back
00:50 imp wb
00:54 chris thanks
00:56 brendan later #koha
00:58 chris cya brendan
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02:27 pianohacker nengard++ # for ui cleanup patches
02:33 chris_n2 @wunder 28334
02:34 munin chris_n2: The current temperature in Erwin, North Carolina is 19.0�C (9:20 PM EST on December 02, 2009). Conditions: Light Rain. Humidity: 88%. Dew Point: 17.0�C. Pressure: 29.56 in 1001 hPa (Steady). Tornado Watch 791 in effect until 4 am EST Thursday...
02:34 chris_n2 ouch
02:34 chris_n2 looks like a long night... *sigh*
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03:23 pianohacker chris_n2: good luck! I hope your house is still on the ground in the mornin'~
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03:23 Amit hi brendan, chris_n2, chris
03:23 chris_n2 me too.... or maybe I'll be in kansas with wizzyrea
03:23 chris_n2 hi Amit
03:29 pianohacker hi, Amit
03:29 Amit heya pianohakcer
03:29 Amit pianohacker: i have done offline circulation
03:30 pianohacker Amit: yay!
03:30 pianohacker What needed to be done?
03:31 Amit run only script
03:31 Amit it gives borrowers.db
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04:31 crackjack is there a how-to about notificaton sending in KOHA
04:32 Amit heya crackjack
04:32 brendan hi amit
04:32 crackjack hello all
04:32 Amit heya brendan
04:33 crackjack any idea about the notification sending in KOHA 3.0.3
04:35 Amit overdues notice
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04:56 Amit heya Genji
04:59 crackjack I mean overdue_notices and advance_notices
05:00 crackjack i have written it in the calculates the fines.....but doesnot send the overdue_notices
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05:12 crackjack any help about the overdue_notices????I want to send mail for any overdue in KOHA
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05:28 chris_n2 g'night #koha
05:32 crackjack i desperately need help regarding the overdue notices problems
05:41 crackjack don't we have some how-tos of overdue notices sending in KOHA
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05:44 chris we have the manual and the documentation in the cronjob, you have set up the notices and set up the triggers, and the cronjob to send the mail is runnin?
05:44 chris[…]3.2/tools/notices
05:46 chris you have cron running and and have done triggers in the notices section in tools?
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05:52 crackjack ya
05:53 chris well then they should run, thats how everyone else has done it
05:53 crackjack I first made an overdue amount making an issue in the backdate...then I setup the trigers in the koha trigger section....then I setup the crontab
05:53 chris you have verified those cronjobs are running and that your system can send mail?
05:54 chris and you set up the notice too?
05:54 crackjack I have attached images with my mail in the mailing list aswell
05:54 chris try running the scripts by hand
05:54 crackjack I have verfied that the cronjobs are running becaouse it calculates the fines fron the same cronjobs
05:55 chris yes
05:55 chris that only verifies the fines one is running
05:55 crackjack I have tried running the scripts manually but they give no results
05:55 chris check the message queue table in the database
05:55 crackjack it takes abt 3-4 seconds to return me the shell again
05:55 crackjack where to check the database???
05:56 chris just run the overdues one (with the -t switch)
05:56 crackjack the table message_queue is blank
05:57 chris then check that table
05:57 chris if you run it with -t and the table is still blank (before running hte
05:57 chris and its still blank
05:58 crackjack ok I ran ./ -t
05:58 crackjack the table is still blank
05:58 Amit chris: I think template problem in overdues notices
05:58 chris and you had set up the environment variables
05:59 chris Amit: you would get an error on the commandline if it was that
05:59 crackjack should I set it up again now???
05:59 Amit yes
05:59 chris and there is no error, so its not that amit
05:59 chris its just koha doesnt think it should be generating notices for today
05:59 Amit sory no
05:59 chris so we have to figure out what is set up wrong
05:59 Amit my overdues notices running fine
06:01 chris crackjack: try it without the -t
06:01 chris and see if you get any rows in the message queue
06:01 crackjack ok
06:01 chris actually try -v
06:02 chris it should give you some info about what it is doing
06:02 Amit $PERL5LIB/misc/cronjobs/ -t
06:02 Amit $PERL5LIB/misc/cronjobs/
06:02 Amit $PERL5LIB/misc/cronjobs/ -v
06:02 crackjack I tried both -t and wothout -t ... no rows in the table yet
06:03 chris right can you try without and with -v
06:03 chris without -t and with -v
06:04 crackjack ya...with -v it gave a lot of output.....
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06:05 chris yeah dont paste it in here
06:05 crackjack with -v it gave a lot of output
06:05 chris paste it at
06:05 crackjack ok
06:05 pastebot "crackjack" at pasted "./overdue_notice -v" (179 lines) at
06:06 crackjack did you check the images that I attached to my mail in the mailing list??
06:07 chris right you have no overdues
06:07 crackjack I think I have made some silly mistakes
06:07 chris you can see that because everything returns 0 rows
06:07 crackjack ya
06:07 crackjack but I have about $2000 fines and its abt 2 yrs due
06:07 crackjack in my koha
06:07 chris thats too long
06:08 chris make it due 2 ago
06:08 crackjack I think I need to redo the process......can I get some step by step guide or something here?
06:08 chris no
06:08 chris its just your item is too overdue
06:09 crackjack I have folllowed the guide at the Nabble and KOHA
06:09 chris they dont send notices everyday for the same item
06:09 crackjack oh
06:09 crackjack ok
06:09 chris so 2 years old is just way to old
06:09 chris when is your trigger for? 1 day overdue?
06:09 crackjack so shall I make an item with abt 7 days overdue?
06:10 chris try one just due yesterday or the day before
06:10 chris 7 would be too long too
06:10 chris unless you have a trigger for 7
06:10 crackjack I didn't get that????
06:11 crackjack please clarify a bit
06:11 chris overdues run when the triggers match
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06:12 chris they dont just keep sending notices every day
06:13 chris they only send them when the conditions match your trigger, cna you try making a book due back yesterday
06:13 chris and then try running it with -v again
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06:16 crackjack ok
06:23 crackjack I just made an issue for yesterday
06:23 crackjack so should I run now??
06:24 chris no need
06:25 chris fines are totally separate to overdue notices
06:25 chris just try the -v
06:26 crackjack it still says 0 rows returned
06:27 chris for all of them?
06:27 chris ok edit the date_due and make it due the date before yesterday
06:29 crackjack I have made the due_date 2nd Dec and today's date as 4th Dec
06:30 chris ?
06:30 chris you changed the system time on your computer?
06:30 crackjack did I make something wrong???
06:30 crackjack ya...
06:30 chris that might work
06:30 chris give it a try
06:31 crackjack where else should I change the time
06:31 crackjack I already tried to run it...its the same result
06:31 chris i wouldnt change the system time
06:32 chris i would just update the row in the issues table
06:32 chris change the date_due column
06:32 crackjack ohk
06:32 crackjack shall I make it again??
06:33 chris categories.overduenoticerequired=1
06:33 chris can you do a select overduenoticerequired from categories;
06:34 chris do they all have 1 ?
06:34 crackjack where should I look for this??
06:35 chris run that query in mysql
06:35 chris select overduenoticerequired from categories;
06:36 crackjack there are altogether 12 entries out of them 10 are 1s
06:36 chris right
06:37 chris so the question now is
06:37 chris does the borrower who has the book out
06:37 chris belong to one of the 2 that arent set to 1
06:37 chris you can see at /cgi-bin/koha/admin/
06:38 chris your categories ... does the borrower who has the item out belong to one that has overdue notices switched on?
06:38 crackjack how do I kow that?
06:39 chris who has the item out?
06:39 chris look at their member record in koha
06:40 chris and find out what category they belong to
06:40 crackjack The name iof the patron in Nitesh Rijal and it's a student category
06:41 chris and does that category has overdue notices set?
06:41 pastebot "crackjack" at pasted "member_records" (8 lines) at
06:42 crackjack ya...its like:
06:43 crackjack student delay (1) advance_notice delay (2) item sue reminder delay(3) overdue_notices
06:43 crackjack I can send you the screenshot if needed
06:44 chris hmm thats the wrong screen
06:44 chris go to administration
06:44 chris then to patron categories
06:45 chris then click on the student category and check overdue notices is set to yes
06:48 crackjack it is set to yes
06:49 crackjack i just looked at it
06:52 Ropuch Morning #koha
07:01 Amit heya Ropuch
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07:47 kf good morning #koha :)
07:49 Ropuch Hi kf :)
07:54 Amit heya kf
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08:13 zico hi
08:13 zico i want to delete "My library" from my koha staff client page....
08:14 zico what i need to do? as... when i go to delete this... it shows me the error...."Library cannot be deleted because there are patrons using that library"
08:15 chris you need to switch the homebranch of the patrons using it to another library
08:16 zico chris: the thing is... i don`t have any patron there even
08:16 zico so... patron is null
08:16 chris id just delete it in the db then
08:16 Ropuch Hi chris
08:17 chris hi Ropuch
08:17 Genji okay, im back.
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08:21 zico chris: i cannot understand
08:21 zico what do i need to delete? id?
08:22 chris the branch from the branch table
08:24 zico ok
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08:49 Amit heya nicomo
08:53 chris wow joetho is up early
08:53 kf hi hdl_laptop, nicomo, joetho :)
08:54 imp moin moin
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08:59 chris nicomo_laptop: you about?
08:59 nicomo_laptop yes
08:59 nicomo_laptop hi chris
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08:59 chris heya, if you want to try something, on aim message kohabot
08:59 chris and say
08:59 chris issued items
09:00 chris actually you will need to login to it first, then try that
09:01 nicomo_laptop can't now
09:01 nicomo_laptop in meetings more or less all day
09:01 nicomo_laptop but will tomorrow
09:03 kf morgen imp
09:09 chris k
09:14 magnusenger chris: head not quite working... what is the url for cloning the bot?
09:16 chris you wll need to tweak it a lot to make it work for you
09:16 chris but its git clone git://
09:16 chris im still working on it, rewriting it to use ils-di
09:17 chris at the mo you can authenticate as an opac user, and find out what books you have out
09:17 chris thats all
09:17 imp fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
09:18 chris ah sorry
09:18 chris but its git clone git://
09:19 imp :)
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09:23 magnusenger chris: thanks! I havn't really got the time to play with it now, but i'd really like to do it anyway... ;-)
09:23 magnusenger Does the search work?
09:24 chris not yet, it used to with 2.2
09:24 magnusenger how do you implement the search? Against SRU or Z39.50?
09:24 chris ils-di
09:25 chris koha's restful api, thats how it does the authen, and gets the borrower data etc, it can also place holds, renew items etc
09:26 chris its what SOPAC uses
09:26 chris search hasn't been implemented yet, i will implement it as part of the work on the bot
09:26 chris but using that api you could build something for wave very easy
09:26 chris have you seen ils-di?
09:27 chris http://opac.koha.workbuffer.or[…]bin/koha/
09:27 chris check that out
09:27 chris Kivutar did most of it i think, and its neat
09:29 chris a neat feature missing from LEK
09:30 Kivutar chris: what is LEK?
09:30 chris liblimes proprietary fork of koha
09:31 magnusenger i've heard about ils-di, but not looked into the details
09:31 magnusenger didn't know search was a part of it!
09:32 chris that page explains all the things it can do, some not implemented yet, but i plan to implement search for it
09:32 kf I think 3.2 will have many nice features not available in lek csv output, batch editing/deleting of items... :)
09:32 chris *nod*
09:33 Kivutar the new offline circulation is nice too (for 3.4 ?)
09:33 kf and there is a lot more :)
09:34 kf new acq (I think they have to pay more to use GetIt?)
09:34 Genji Will we see the end of LEK someday?
09:34 magnusenger chris: the linked bullet points are implemented, i guess?
09:34 chris yup
09:34 chris click on one, and it gives you instructions and example output
09:35 magnusenger ok
09:35 magnusenger but impleneting search through SRU shouldn't be too hard either?
09:35 magnusenger (as long as it's turned on, of course)
09:35 chris Genji: no one knows, only if liblime's clients refuse it i think
09:35 chris yep, but ils-di is a webservice and a published one
09:36 Genji there might come a time when koha has all the features of LEK, and more, eh?
09:36 chris already has way more
09:37 magnusenger chris: but SRU is just a call to a URL too, and you get MARCXML in return...
09:37 chris but enough about LEK, i shouldnt have brought it up, its pointless to talk about it, we cant do anything about it
09:37 chris magnusenger: while that might sound good to librarians
09:37 Genji so..... uhh... its just due to misinformation, that liblime is able to bring people into LEK?
09:37 chris magnusenger: 99% of the world doesnt care about SRU or MARC in any form
09:38 chris if you give them an api that doesnt force them to have to learn that
09:38 chris you make it more likely they will use it
09:38 magnusenger but it looks like at least GetRecords returns marcxml too?
09:38 chris if you want it to
09:38 magnusenger ah
09:39 magnusenger any other formats?
09:39 chris currently koha just returns marcxml, but it could do mods, or more usefully for a lot of people dublin core
09:39 chris since we have code to do that already elsewhere in the opac
09:40 magnusenger (and of course i agree wholeheartedly that we shouldn't expect people outside libraries who want to play with our data to learn marc!)
09:41 chris also, i like that its on port 80
09:41 chris which means less mucking around with firewalls ;)
09:42 magnusenger good point!
09:42 magnusenger wave bots *have* to run on Google App Engine, which can only get things from 80 and another port i forget...
09:42 chris yep
09:43 chris app engine is pretty neat
09:43 magnusenger come to think of it though: SRU can return dc, marcxml, mods, rss2, rdfdc and utils formats *today* ;-)
09:43 chris yeah but you have to understand SRU
09:44 chris which is not as arcane as z39.50
09:44 chris but its close
09:44 magnusenger which isn't all that hard, i think? (at least compared with understnding marc ;-)
09:45 chris yep, but it does mean running a separate service
09:45 magnusenger on the server?
09:45 chris and you can download dc, mods extra from the opac
09:45 chris so its probably very lttle time to do it from ilsdi
09:45 magnusenger yeah, the functionality is probably there
09:46 chris yeah you have to enable sru/sw and put it on a public port
09:46 magnusenger the more ways to get at the data the better!
09:46 chris yep
09:46 magnusenger this is one huge advantage Koha has over the proprietary systems here in norway!
09:46 chris library types can use sru, the rest of the world can have a restful api
09:46 magnusenger way to go! ;-)
09:47 chris biblibre have already done 80% of it
09:47 chris its just adding the other 20
09:47 magnusenger biblibre++
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09:49 zico chris: i tried to delete..but
09:49 zico this error came
09:49 kf koha foundation meeting today?
09:49 zico mysql + #1451 - Cannot delete or update a parent row: a foreign key constraint fails
09:49 Genji sounds like you do have some patrons using that branch, zico.
09:50 zico Genji: but, there is no patron there!!! :( the patron r empty
09:50 Genji hmm......
09:51 chris probably an item then
09:51 * Genji nods.
09:51 chris has that branch as its home branch
09:52 Genji Interesting, this constraint concept. stops people from deleting data by mistake.
09:52 kf search groups?
09:52 chris kf: yep foundation meeting in about 9 hours
09:53 kf chris: thx :)
09:53 Genji hmm.... 7am nzd?
09:53 Genji 8am?
09:53 chris 8am
09:53 * Genji nods.
09:55 magnusenger and 8pm in my neck of the woods... ;-)
09:57 * chris goes to sleep
09:57 magnusenger sleep tight!
09:57 kf good night chris#!
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12:03 kf lunch :)
12:03 Ropuch [;
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12:06 Ropuch guten Hunger, kf [;
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12:40 kf Ropuch: thx :)
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12:52 nil hello
12:53 imp heyho
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13:04 chris_n g'morning all you code mills ;-)
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13:10 heupink hi. I'm trying to migrate from 2.2.5 to 3.0.4, and having trouble. My question: can I run as many times as I need?
13:12 heupink I'm importing the 2.2.5 mysql database in my 3.0.4 server, and then try to update the database 'format'.
13:13 jwagner Good morning all.  chris_n, what was the result of your rebase db problems yesterday?  I had to leave in the middle of it.
13:16 hdl_laptop updatedatabase ?
13:17 jwagner hdl_laptop, yes -- I think it was the new head with the biblibre patches
13:17 chris_n jwagner: still awaiting hdl's thoughts
13:18 pastebot "hdl_laptop" at pasted "updatedatabase" (53 lines) at
13:18 jwagner Your dire warnings did at least save me from disaster yesterday :-)  I had a site visit and I would normally have done a git pull/git rebase master as part of the trip.  Good thing I knew not to try that before I went!
13:18 hdl_laptop here you are.
13:19 hdl_laptop on my todo list
13:20 heupink hdl_laptop: is that meant for me?
13:20 hdl_laptop heupink: no, meant for jwagner.
13:20 heupink hmm. :( thought so...
13:20 hdl_laptop sorry
13:20 nil hello
13:20 heupink haha, no problem.
13:21 nil hello
13:21 nil i need some help for koha
13:21 hdl_laptop heupink : MARC21 or USMARC ?
13:21 heupink would be nice if someone could also tell me if running '' 3, 4 times in a row has bad sideeffects...
13:21 heupink unimarc
13:22 chris_n jwagner: glad my misery benefited someone :-)
13:22 hdl_laptop I would say you had better save your database before trying and start from that.
13:22 jwagner Believe me, I appreciate it!  And sympathize!!!  I gather there are some new Perl dependencies as well -- hdl_laptop or someone, is there a list of those?
13:24 heupink i have saved my database, installing on different server anyway, thats not the problem.
13:24 heupink it's jst: I'm getting errors, and am trying to solve them one by one,
13:24 heupink and wonder if after every adjustment I can simple run the script again
13:27 jwagner nil, what's your question?
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13:29 hdl_laptop @later tell chris_n some more time. I will work on that tonight
13:29 munin hdl_laptop: The operation succeeded.
13:29 chris_n tnx hdl_laptop
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13:36 Schuster Morning all
13:36 hdl_laptop hi Schuster
13:36 chris_n hi Schuster
13:42 jwagner morning, schuster.  Sorry I had to miss the KUDOS meeting yesterday.
13:43 nil left #koha
13:46 Schuster It was a day of meetings wow I understand.  I've posted notes everywhere I can think of!  If you'll be at ALA they are going to try and have a face to face.
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13:49 owen-away Hi #koha, sorry I missed all the meetings yesterday
13:49 owen-away is now known as owen
13:50 * owen was taking care of a sick baby
13:50 chris_n owen: sorry to hear that
13:51 owen Nothing serious, but it tends to put Koha out of one's mind.
13:51 * chris_n understands that
13:54 nengard anyone else having fun testing all of the new awesome biblibre additions??
13:54 nengard I'm testing/prepping for docs/patching
13:55 * chris_n tries to shove a 283M file through gmail
13:55 * owen is excited to see what's new
13:55 gmcharlt chris_n: eek! would that be destined for me?
13:55 nengard owen - make sure you update your Perl modules - at first everything was broken for me cause I forgot that step :) hehe
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13:55 gmcharlt if so, I can provide space for you to sftp it instead
13:55 chris_n gmcharlt: your intuition is startling ;-)
13:55 chris_n yes, gmail is borking
13:56 gmcharlt ok, hang on
13:56 owen nengard: What did you have to update?
13:56 nengard hiya gmcharlt - sorry for all of the patches yesterday - well not really sorry - but sorry for the extra work for you :)
13:56 nengard owen ... i forget now :) hehe - according to my About Koha page I was missing 3 modules
13:57 nengard I was in a bad mood last night and doing things way way too fast - chris might remember - since he was helping so much :)
13:57 jwagner nengard or gmcharlt or hdl_laptop, can we get a list of the new Perl modules needed?
13:57 nengard hang on - i'll tell you want I was missing
13:57 chris_n jwagner: I think its only one
13:58 hdl_laptop hi gmcharlt.
13:58 nengard I don't know if these are ones i was missing all along or cause of the update but last night I installed these:
13:58 nengard PDF::Table
13:58 nengard PDF::API2::Simple  (which I'm still missing)
13:59 nengard Lingua::Stem::Snowball
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13:59 nengard and Number::Format
14:00 jwagner Thanks.  We have some sites that host locally so we'll warn them to go ahead & install those.
14:00 chris_n jwagner: [Bug 3828] Add dependency Authen::CAS::Client
14:00 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3828 major, PATCH-Sent, ---,, NEW, Missing Dependency In Makefile.PL
14:01 jwagner Thanks.  I'd suggest an email to the listserv(s) warning people about all these before others start trying to update.
14:01 Schuster Thanks for that list nengard.
14:02 nengard np - hope that's all of them - guess I'll find out if I hit more errors
14:02 nengard for some reason I can't install PDF::API2::Simple
14:02 Schuster I responded to your question about fastbib - or whatever that was, but I suspect jwagner can maybe talk more about that new cataloging preference than I.
14:03 chris_n actually, most of the ones nengard lists have been in Makefile.PL for a while
14:04 nengard oops - bad me :) hehe
14:04 chris_n no, not bad
14:04 chris_n just catching up ;-)
14:05 chris_n the problem with running over git is that you don't run Makefile.PL every time and so can get behind on deps especially if you do not use certain portions of code
14:06 jwagner Schuster, our fastadd feature hasn't gotten submitted yet -- I suspect this is a BibLibre version?
14:06 chris_n it would be nice to have some other mechanism for ensuring that deps are installed as added when running over git
14:06 hdl_laptop will do
14:06 hdl_laptop jwagner: yes we did some work on that.
14:07 nengard jwagner - yes it is
14:08 hdl_laptop based on addbiblio with fastadd framework
14:08 owen chris_n: Is there a certain process one should follow to check for new dependencies?
14:09 hdl_laptop I will send a message on the lists about that.
14:09 chris_n owen: you can check the 'about' page I think
14:09 nengard hdl_laptop - i submitted a bug regarding that -- I think it's great! but you shouldn't be able to delete the FastAdd Framework because of the links to it and the permissions issues
14:09 hdl_laptop it is a food start.
14:10 hdl_laptop I saw your bug report.
14:10 nengard do you agree? or am I wrong in my assumptions of how it works?
14:10 hdl_laptop No you are right.
14:11 hdl_laptop But not that straight forward to do.
14:12 hdl_laptop should not be a blocker.
14:12 chris_n owen: the 'Perl Modules' will list the version or 'module is missing'... although I do not see the new module there, so I may be wrong
14:14 chris_n nengard: fwiw, I was missing PDF::API2::Simple too :-)
14:19 nengard chris_n can you get it to install?
14:19 nengard hdl_laptop - if i were to delete the FA framework what would happen? if we'd have broken links and things then that's why i said blocker - didn't want to delete it to test :) hehe
14:20 chris_n nengard: using cpan it seems to install fine... not sure about the package version
14:21 nengard yeah - tried cpan ... need to go back and read what it's telling me
14:24 hdl_laptop nengard: mmm... I think links are shown only whether framework is there.
14:24 nengard okey dokey
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14:55 owen Okay folks, here's what I'm getting after fetching the newly approved stuff and rebasing: "Can't locate in @INC"
14:57 |Lupin| joined #koha
14:57 |Lupin| hello, everybody
14:58 hdl_laptop left #koha
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15:04 hilongo joined #koha
15:04 hilongo hello there ...
15:05 |Lupin| hi hilongo
15:08 hdl_laptop1 owen : cpanp install YAML
15:10 owen "Transfer truncated: only  out of 162997 bytes received"
15:12 * owen tries sudo apt-get install libyaml-perl and it seems to work
15:12 owen If it works it works? Or not?
15:13 hdl_laptop1 yes
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15:14 owen The confusing thing for me is guessing the name of what I should install based on the name of what's missing :|
15:15 * owen is learning
15:15 hdl_laptop1 yes debian and perl are quite funny
15:18 nengard owen chris told me about -- searching there sometimes helps you find the name you want to install
15:21 owen Thanks nengard that helps a lot
15:21 nengard :)
15:22 nengard just don't make the mistake i did - which is searching with the colons you see on the about page - search with hyphens instead
15:22 owen nengard: No luck for you on getting PDF::API2::Simple installed?
15:23 nengard nope
15:23 owen The about page says I'm missing it too
15:23 nengard not yet
15:23 owen lists libpdf-api2-perl
15:24 nengard yeah - but my system says i already have the newest version -- and koha says i'm missing it
15:25 |Lupin| till soon folks !
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15:26 owen I don't see a message on the about page about Lingua::Stem::Snowball, but I couldn't search without it
15:26 nengard yeah owen - i had the same issue
15:27 nengard but i don't know how to add things to that about page - or do we just report it as ab ug
15:27 nengard ?
15:27 hdl_laptop1 owen nengard it is in order to use stemming
15:27 owen hdl_laptop1: Do you know why it wasn't reported missing on the about page?
15:27 hdl_laptop1 I think it is not in Makefile.PL
15:27 nengard should it be? should we report a but that it shoudl be in there?
15:28 hdl_laptop1 file a bug. assign to me.
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15:38 owen Hi wizzyrea
15:40 brendan joined #koha
15:41 wizzyrea mornin owen
15:42 Nate joined #koha
15:44 nengard hdl_laptop1 -- done - bug 3842 reported and assigned to you
15:44 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3842 major, P5, ---,, NEW, Lingua::Stem::Snowball Missing from Makefile.PL
15:44 * owen is thinking about whether the staff client cart link should be somewhere else in the toolbar
15:47 Donaran joined #koha
15:47 wizzyrea the cart... on the staff client...
15:48 wizzyrea i might be missing it... what screen is it on?
15:51 owen It's in the latest round of updates to HEAD from BibLibre
15:52 jwagner chris_n, still online?
15:54 hilongo left #koha
15:58 wizzyrea ohhhh yea that explains it
16:00 reiko joined #koha
16:00 chris_n jwagner: here now
16:00 reiko hi
16:00 jwagner chris_n, one of our users was trying to scan a barcode into the new label creator, & got an error like Can't use an undefined value as a HASH reference at kohaclone/labels/ line 129
16:01 jwagner I know you had some fixes to that, but the version of head they're at should have them all, I thought.  Do you recognize that one?
16:01 chris_n I've not encountered that one that I can recall
16:02 chris_n scanning a barcode to search for an item?
16:02 jwagner Yes.  I can send you the screenshot if you want.  We've done a lot of development on this system.  Haven't touched the label scripts, but we may be butting heads elsewhere in one of the .pm files?
16:03 chris_n jwagner: maybe a description of the steps to reproduce the error
16:04 chris_n I can look at it later today as we use that code here in production
16:05 jwagner What's your email address?
16:05 chris_n I think all of the bugfixes I've submitted have made it into the HEAD
16:05 chris_n
16:05 jwagner Thanks, will send.
16:06 chris_n bbiab
16:09 reiko hi, i'm having troubles with authority searching, do i need to configure authority-zebra-indexdefs.xsl in order to search? i have some custom auth types.
16:11 reiko[…]628/capturezw.png <- heres a screen of how some authorities show up when i search for them
16:21 nengard wizzyea and own i thought it was for new acq - but it's not - it's just a cart for staff to make it easier to perform bulk actions - kind of cool :)
16:22 hdl_laptop1 nengard: thanks
16:23 nengard hdl_laptop1 it's like christmas morning with this new update to koha - all kinds of presents under the hood :) hehe
16:23 hdl_laptop1 yes... Some gifts are fine, others less fine ;)
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16:24 nengard hdl_laptop1 I have not found many major issues - mostly tiny things that I have been able to fix on my own
16:24 nengard :)
16:24 hdl_laptop1 nengard+++
16:25 jwagner So long as there are no lumps of coal :-)  I can't wait to take a look myself, but I have too much else going on right now.
16:25 nengard I do have one complaint - and that is that the commit messages were too brief - meaning I can't always figure out what a new section is for
16:26 wizzyrea nengard that sounds sweet
16:26 hdl_laptop1 Yes. too brief commit message--.... But We shall try and improve that.
16:27 hdl_laptop1 we are already asking for commits to be more verbose.
16:27 hdl_laptop1 (internally)
16:28 hdl_laptop1 But we had no guidelines for that... And time to develop is somtimes way too short.
16:29 hdl_laptop1 and sometimes, it is quite difficult to know WHAT to tell to be thorough and fully understood.
16:32 kf I also had a problem to understand some things
16:33 kf in the new acq module
16:33 sekjal joined #koha
16:34 kf but I think nicole's documentation will fix that :)
16:35 imp hdl_laptop1: with subversion, you can setup procommit hooks, they can do stuff like enforcing longer commitmessages (just exploring the stuff myself right now because 3/5 from my team tend to write _nothing_ in there...)
16:50 Nate left #koha
16:51 wizzyrea brendan: have you ever set up the SIP server for Koha?
16:52 pianohacker joined #koha
16:53 brendan I've messed with it before
16:53 brendan what's up
16:53 brendan heya pianohacker
16:53 pianohacker hi brendan
16:53 brendan errrr...  Dr. pianohacker
16:54 jwagner hey, pianohacker, how are the fingers? Haven't heard recently.
16:54 pianohacker If I'm going to be a doctor, I probably need something better than a sweatshirt and old corduroys
16:55 pianohacker the fingers are doing excellent. I have my thumb taped up after finding out the joint bends back a bit too far now, but other than that they're great
16:55 pianohacker How are you guys?
16:55 brendan I'd say that's a sure thing pianohacker
16:58 jwagner But surely the thumb would give you better reach on the keyboard that way :-)
16:59 Nate joined #koha
16:59 pianohacker hehe. right now, unless it's taped it can bend rather sickeningly far back
16:59 pianohacker my mom, as a pt, is morally opposed to this
17:01 jwagner Details, details....
17:01 wizzyrea brendan: i was going to ask you if there was server user configuration,  but I found what i needed in the manual
17:01 wizzyrea lol
17:02 brendan good deal wizzyrea
17:03 owen Anyone here ever configured VirtualBox so that they can access their guest OS from the host?
17:05 wizzyrea I did, there's some trick to it
17:05 pianohacker owen: might help
17:05 pianohacker I'm interested, as I'm setting up a virtualbox koha install at the moment myself
17:06 wizzyrea sec, lemme look for the voodoo required
17:06 kf bye #koha - bbl for the meeting
17:06 kf left #koha
17:07 wizzyrea this was the post I followed
17:07 wizzyrea
17:07 owen Okay, that's what I was just looking at
17:07 owen The VBoxManage commands...those are meant to be run on the guest system?
17:08 wizzyrea on the host
17:09 wizzyrea you have to do similar forwarding rules for 80 and 8080
17:09 wizzyrea if you are using those
17:09 wizzyrea so I did 88 and 8888
17:09 wizzyrea for example
17:09 owen Okay, I guess I just was guessing incorrectly what was meant by "Guest machine name."
17:09 wizzyrea so from my host machine I would do localhost:8888 for the staff interface
17:10 owen wizzyrea: Just replacing 2222 with 88 and 8888?
17:10 wizzyrea right, i'll example, sec
17:11 wizzyrea VBoxManage setextradata <guestname> "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/​LUN#0/Config/http80/HostPort" 8888
17:11 nengard owen - someone said you can use FTP - install filezilla server on one and filezilla on the other
17:11 nengard but i have never gotten it to work
17:11 wizzyrea VBoxManage setextradata <guestname> "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/​LUN#0/Config/http80/GuestPort" 80
17:12 wizzyrea er, that first should be 88, so localhost:88 forwards to 80 on the guest
17:12 wizzyrea then you would change the http80 to http8080 and do the same
17:13 wizzyrea and a protocol for each of those, so:
17:13 wizzyrea VBoxManage setextradata <guestname> "VBoxInternal/Devices/pcnet/0/​LUN#0/Config/http80/Protocol" TCP
17:16 pastebot "wizzyrea" at pasted "virtualbox extradata settings, from my vbox config at /Users/liz/Library/Virtual​Box/Machines/Debian-Koha" (15 lines) at
17:16 wizzyrea this may help :P
17:16 wizzyrea i spent several hours trying to figure it out
17:22 wizzyrea i'm guessing atz wrote the bit in the manual on SIP?
17:22 wizzyrea (sounds like him)
17:23 pianohacker Probably
17:25 wizzyrea man, is that guy ever going to stop saving my sorry butt. I doubt it.
17:26 pianohacker hehe
17:29 owen wizzyrea: the example you gave above uses "http80" and the example in your pasted sample uses "guestapache" Is that significant?
17:30 wizzyrea yea, actually, each port has a distinctive name
17:30 wizzyrea it's arbitrary, but must be unique for each set
17:30 wizzyrea mine has a bunch of extra ports configured
17:30 wizzyrea for some testing I was doing
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17:31 chris_n jwagner: I sent a reply
17:32 chris_n not sure if it helps or not, however
17:32 jwagner Muchas gracias in advance!
17:33 hdl_laptop1 imp could be done also on git
17:38 brendan @wunder 93117
17:38 munin brendan: The current temperature in Northwest Goleta, Goleta, California is 11.5�C (9:34 AM PST on December 03, 2009). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 85%. Dew Point: 9.0�C. Pressure: 30.02 in 1016.5 hPa (Rising).
17:41 owen wizzyrea: Sorry, I'm completely confused.
17:41 reiko left #koha
17:41 owen Can we go back over this?
17:42 Genji joined #koha
17:42 wizzyrea yep
17:42 owen I'm looking at the xml file
17:42 wizzyrea which port are you wanting and what's your vbox name?
17:43 owen I've got the OPAC running on 80 and the staff client on 8080
17:44 * chris goes to catch the early bus to get to work in time for the meeting, i hope i can remember the alarm code
17:46 bebbi joined #koha
17:47 wizzyrea ok, I would delete all of the entries you've got in there
17:48 pastebot "wizzyrea" at pasted "run each line once to add the settings" (9 lines) at
17:48 wizzyrea in your terminal
17:49 owen Is "http80" an arbitrary (descriptive) name?
17:49 wizzyrea yep
17:49 wizzyrea (the bright side is that the next time I need to do this I'll have no problem remembering ^.^)
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17:57 chris before i run down the hill
17:57 chris it is 1 hour til the meeting right?
17:57 wizzyrea i thought so but joann seems to think it's in 5 mins
17:57 chris jo just scared me with her tweet, according to my calculations there is still 1 hour to go
17:58 owen I thought 1 hour too
17:58 chris yeah thats right it is, just worked it out again
17:58 chris nz is utc + 13
17:58 chris 7pm = 8am
17:58 chris cool i will go catch my bus
17:58 chris bbiab
18:00 nengard okay - taking a break from testing and patching - need to run an errand
18:00 * nengard be back later
18:03 tomascohen left #koha
18:03 owen Trying to restart Apache... Why would I be getting the error "apachectl: command not found" ?
18:04 Joann joined #koha
18:04 wizzyrea /etc/init.d/apache2 restart and you get that?
18:06 imp owen: do you have a apache2ctl? (maybe it's just an old initscript)
18:08 GeorgeSue joined #koha
18:08 Joann so is the meeting in an hour?
18:09 Genji ~50 mins
18:09 Joann thanks
18:10 Joann George - sorry I got the time conversion wrong .... you can make Shirley breakfast now :)
18:11 Joann its 8am NZ time
18:11 GeorgeSue Thanks Jo:)
18:11 pianohacker Wait a minute, I thought it was us US peoples' job to get time conversions wrong
18:14 sekjal When we regain, perhaps we should consider some kind of time localizer tool for displaying meeting times.
18:14 brendan no matter what - someone will still get it wrong
18:14 * brendan has been wrong more than once
18:15 sekjal true enough; the conversion isn't the only factor
18:15 brendan :)
18:15 brendan hey sekjal
18:15 sekjal hey brendan
18:15 brendan I was wondering how your planning for course reserves was going
18:16 sekjal we're going to be forming a task force to evaluate what we need out of a course reserves tool.
18:16 sekjal interestingly enough, I was just talking with our head of Circ, and had some ideas
18:17 sekjal like allowing professors to request items be moved to course reserves directly through the OPAC
18:17 sekjal and allowing course reserves, and other items, to be "bookable"
18:17 brendan sounds very useful
18:18 brendan will be excited to see some of it
18:18 sekjal this would really help with our equipment and room reservations, which are a larger and larger percentage of the circ desk's business each day
18:18 pianohacker sekjal: Would PC reservations be useful to integrate into all this? Just curious, as I have a system that's been languishing for a while
18:19 sekjal pianohacker: I think the development could be generalized enough to do that, yes
18:19 sekjal we have a graphics area we want to be able to book, and also gather usage stats on
18:20 wizzyrea i love this line of discussion
18:20 sekjal I think just adding a field to Item Types to allow for it to be bookable, then add the necessary tables and logic to keep the reservations organized
18:20 sekjal have built in iCal standard export, so people can subscribe to an item's "calendar"
18:21 wizzyrea hot!
18:21 jwagner Speaking of 'bookable' -- Unicorn has a bookings module for things like laptops, projectors, whatever that people want to reserve for a particular time.  Might that be useful to integrate?
18:21 sekjal gtg.  phone call with prospective Koha library
18:21 jwagner Or did I miss that you were already including that :-)
18:21 cait joined #koha
18:22 cait hi #koha
18:22 imp heyho cait :)
18:25 cait bist du eigentlich mal nicht hier? ;)
18:34 owen is now known as owen-away
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18:47 Joann is now known as jransom
18:51 jransom can anyone suggest a good alternative to Deep Freeze for locking down public internet PCs?
18:52 wizzyrea deepfreeze is the perennial favorite here
18:52 nicomo joined #koha
18:52 jransom We've used it for years and its rock solid - but I cannot get the new version to work with our new PCs.
18:52 Genji I'd suggest linux springing from VM's.
18:52 wizzyrea well I don't know what microsoft is doing with the shared computer toolkit
18:52 jransom causes them to lockup - so we take it off and they are fine
18:52 wizzyrea if you are forced in the MS direction
18:53 jransom oh yeah - we are looking today in desperation :(
18:53 Genji or a linux thinnet server.
18:53 wizzyrea curious what kind of computers are they?
18:54 hdl_laptop hi
18:54 hdl_laptop jransom: kyle hall developped libki
18:54 jransom will have to find the specs - brb
18:55 wizzyrea there's also groovix, if you're going the linux route
18:55 wizzyrea or userful
18:55 jransom they are windows running xp
18:55 wizzyrea curious if you've contacted faronics with your issues
18:55 jransom (public got grumpy when we had linux ones)
18:56 jransom will do that today as well
18:56 owen-away is now known as owen
18:56 wizzyrea the last time we had trouble with deepfreeze they had a patch for us in a couple of days
18:56 wizzyrea and a new version like a week later
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18:56 Genjimoto is now known as Genji
18:56 wizzyrea our results may not be typical
18:57 chris back
18:57 jransom oh that is good news - we just dicovered what we think may be the source of the problem last night
18:57 Genji Welcome back, did you trigger any alarms?
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19:00 chris nope
19:00 chris all good
19:00 pianohacker jransom: We use SteadyState; its mildly fussy but does its main job of resetting the hard drive quite well
19:00 thd jransom: Why do you want to lock down the PCs?
19:00 jransom thanks
19:00 wizzyrea yea that's part of the shared computer toolkit right?
19:01 jdavidb is now known as jdavidb_meeting
19:01 Genji jransom: you definately have to use Windows?
19:01 pianohacker wizzyrea: SteadyState's the new name for it
19:01 wizzyrea right
19:01 jransom restores the harddrive to a pristine state after each reboot
19:01 wizzyrea it's free, right?
19:01 pianohacker yup
19:01 jransom these are public pcs
19:01 wizzyrea we tried it, but we didn't like it :(
19:01 kyle joined #koha
19:02 pianohacker wizzyrea: what dealbreaker problems did you have?
19:02 wizzyrea rather our librarians didn't like it
19:02 wizzyrea something about too hard to use
19:02 Genji Yet, I rememmber Foxton libary using linux on their public pcs.
19:02 IrmaCalyx g'day everyone
19:02 imp 20:00
19:02 Marijana joined #koha
19:02 brendan goodday Irma
19:02 chris_n hi IrmaCalyx
19:02 kyle hello all
19:03 pianohacker Definitely easier to admin. Depends how much energy you want to invest in the conversion, tho :)
19:03 cait joined #koha
19:03 Marijana hello from Croatia
19:03 pianohacker hi, all
19:03 wizzyrea maybe I will look at it again
19:04 owen We use SteadyState too, although I'm not involved with that aspect of things
19:04 jransom Genji : yeah we had to take them off eventually - but in the new library I'm planning 50% linux 50% windows to start with ...
19:04 kyle left #koha
19:04 Genji jransom: Reasons for taking off the linux?
19:05 jransom our opacs are linux thinclients and we trouble free motoring there
19:05 kyle joined #koha
19:05 pianohacker we actually use steadystate for just protecting the hard drive; we use winlock professional for locking down settings since it has more options and can be unlocked if need be
19:05 vickiteal joined #koha
19:05 owen Hi vickiteal
19:05 jransom public frustration at what they found when they sat down - unfamiliarity etc
19:05 Genji Ah.
19:05 dpavlin joined #koha
19:05 chris ok, its about that time
19:05 vickiteal Hi.
19:06 pianohacker wizzyrea: I can definitely imagine your librarians complaining about the settings lockdown part of steadystate; it's not the best part of the program
19:06 pianohacker </pac-discussion>
19:06 chris do we have any volunteers to chair the meeting?
19:06 chris speak now
19:06 thd should jransom not be the degault chair?
19:06 chris or you will end up with me doing it
19:06 jransom can i nomiate Owen
19:06 chris thd: jransom is presenting lots of stuff today
19:07 chris hard to do both
19:07 jransom not me
19:07 owen I can if you'd like, but I'm not up on the agenda
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19:07 chris_n[…]etingnotes09dec03
19:08 pianohacker owen: ping
19:08 owen Okay, crib sheet prepared.
19:08 chris ok, well lets do a quick round of introductions first
19:08 chris and then its over to owen :)
19:09 jransom Joann Ransom - HLT, NZ
19:09 wizzyrea Liz Rea, Northeast Kansas Library System
19:09 * chris_n Chris Nighswonger, FBC
19:09 cait Katrin Fischer, BSZ Konstanz
19:09 nicomo Nicolas Morin, BibLibre
19:09 chris Chris Cormack, Catalyst IT, NZ
19:09 sekjal Ian Walls, NYU Health Sciences Libraries
19:09 pie Andrew Chilton, Catalyst IT, NZ
19:09 hdl_laptop Henri-Damien LAURENT, BibLibre
19:09 * brendan <-- Brendan A. Gallagher, ByWater Solutions, USA
19:09 Nate Nate Curulla ByWater Solutions, USA
19:09 * pianohacker = Jesse Weaver, John C. Fremont Library District
19:09 vickiteal Vicki Teal Lovely, South Central Library System, Madison, WI, US
19:10 IrmaCalyx CAYX information essentials (Sydney), Aus.
19:10 owen Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library, USA
19:10 thd Thomas Dukleth , Agogme, New York City
19:10 magnusenger Magnus Enger, Libriotech, Norway
19:10 kyle Kyle Hall, Crawford County Federated Library System, PA, USA
19:10 dpavlin dpavlin, Marijana - Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences, Croatia
19:10 imp Martin Janitschke - ccc hannover
19:11 jwagner Jane Wagner, PTFS
19:11 owen Welcome, everyone!
19:11 owen First on the agenda: Report on forming HLT Koha foundation committee
19:12 GeorgeSue George Sue Horowhenua Libary Trust The new lamb on the block, Greetings everyone
19:12 jransom ok, well we have had communication back and forwards, but nothing constructive.
19:12 chris jransom: its the committee
19:12 jransom and we made it clear we were working to this date
19:12 chris next item is the negotiations
19:13 cm joined #koha
19:13 chris so i think this agenda item is the time to introduce George
19:13 chris and talk about the koha subcommittee of HLT etc
19:14 jransom oops
19:14 jransom sorry - nerves :)
19:14 chris :)
19:14 jransom I would like to introduce Georeg Sue
19:15 jransom he has been appointed by HLT to work with the Koha community with forming the HLT Koha subcommitte
19:15 jransom and to carry out these negotiations  with liblime first.
19:15 jransom he was chair when developed koha
19:16 GeorgeSue Hi everyone I am new to the keyboard  so you will have to bear with me
19:16 jransom led us through that - and we love him deraly :)
19:16 jransom dearly (even)
19:16 owen What function does the HLT Koha subcommittee perform, and how should it be composed?
19:17 chris yep, we all owe a great deal of thanks to George, and the other trustees for bringing Koha into existence, I feel it fitting he is helping us out now also
19:17 IrmaCalyx indeed!
19:18 jransom the HLT Koha subcommittee does not exist yet. We thought it was best to develop that with the community. I have asked Bob Birchall to start working on a paper to get us started - but we are winging it at the moment :)
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19:18 owen jransom: Do you see it as being composed of HLT people + Koha community people?
19:19 jransom absolutely.
19:19 MickeyC left #koha
19:19 jransom dominated by community people
19:19 chris_n how many seats should be on it?
19:19 slef3g MJRay, member
19:19 slef3g MJRay, member
19:19 chris i think this is what we are still in the process of deciding chris_n
19:20 owen I'm still not sure I understand what the function of the committee is
19:20 jransom to be decided with the community,
19:20 chris so far to date, HLT have appointed george to work from their end
19:20 Mickey joined #koha
19:20 jransom we are not interested in throwing our weight around.
19:20 jransom the koha community will continue to be driven by the koha community
19:21 chris as far as i see it, they will just be looking into making sure the community property is being looked after
19:21 jransom and the community should help decide how the subcommittee should function
19:21 owen So chris you see it as a group of folks who will keep an eye on what's going on in the Koha world and bring attention to potential problems?
19:22 chris yup
19:22 chris oversight
19:22 chris big picture stuff
19:22 chris not day to day running of the project
19:22 chris_n so what things does oversight involve?
19:22 wizzyrea and potentially overseeing the formation of an independent foundation, right?
19:22 jransom I suggest we take Bob's first thoughts thinking paper and put it up somewhere and we play around with it until we get something to take back to the Trust. They may wish to tweak it - or not.
19:22 chris id see them as doing things like finding a good place to host etc
19:23 chris wizzyrea: yep helping to facillitate discussion aroudn that
19:23 ftherese joined #koha
19:23 chris jransom: that sounds like a good idea, lets do it nice and publicly too
19:23 jransom I see us as being an umbrella organisation. the real work will continue to be done by the community
19:23 jransom as it always has done.
19:23 jransom really - its business as usual.
19:23 ftherese I was in here yesterday asking a question, but no one was able to answer before I had to leave
19:23 ftherese so let me try again
19:24 pianohacker ftherese: currently in middle of meeting
19:24 chris ftherese: we are in a meeting
19:24 owen ftherese: You've caught us in the middle of a meeting
19:24 ftherese sorry
19:24 ftherese later
19:24 pianohacker barbershop trio, even
19:24 chris hang around, and ask later ;)
19:24 ftherese how long?
19:24 chris at least an hour i imagine
19:24 ftherese ok
19:25 jransom George: please feel free to step in if I am misrepresenting the Trusts perceived role in this ok
19:25 chris_n jransom: is Bob's paper available or can it be made available?
19:25 chris it doesnt exist yet chris_n
19:25 chris but im sure ti will be available for all when it does
19:25 chris_n so do we table this item until it is?
19:25 chris yep i think we can report it as
19:26 owen It does sound like we need to get a framework together for the discussion
19:26 chris George has been appointed to work from HLT end, Bob is doing a draft framework
19:26 jransom Would that be ok? It will be up maybe today but probably next week. I'll get Chris to put it somewhere in the koha public space
19:26 chris_n it seems that the paper will provide that framework
19:26 chris and we will revisit when that is done
19:26 owen Would a wiki page be suitable?
19:26 hdl_laptop IrmaCalyx: any hint on when it should be out ?
19:27 chris_n should we put is other than the wiki... somewhere were the community has control?
19:27 IrmaCalyx I am looking for it now...
19:27 jransom i have it my inbox as a first draft but have not given it serious thought yet - happy to post it now if Bob is
19:27 GeorgeSue I would just like to reassure everyone that I am here to help you guys carry on the excelent work you are doing for us and the world,
19:27 chris chris_n: lets put it a few places
19:27 chris_n +1
19:27 CGI758 left #koha
19:28 owen chris: should we wait for an announcement from you on that?
19:28 slef3g exists but is login required atm. can prob make a public subsite easy
19:29 chris owen: yep that works
19:29 slef3g sorry slow. stood in train station
19:29 chris so bob to write a paper, chris to put it somewhere, then we revisit this item
19:29 chris sound ok?
19:29 * chris_n seconds the motion
19:30 owen And part of everyone's homework is to consider what role this committee should play and how it should be composed.
19:30 brendan +1
19:30 thd +1
19:30 wizzyrea +1
19:30 nicomo +1
19:30 chris yes, all ideas gratefully received and considered
19:30 hdl_laptop +1
19:30 sekjal +1
19:30 chris id also like to put a motion of thanks to Jo, Bob and George for getting us to this point
19:30 jransom and please don't be expecting the Trust to dictate how this will work and lead here: Koha is still as much a community led project as it ever was.
19:31 chris_n +1
19:31 Mickey +1
19:31 owen +1
19:31 slef3g +1
19:31 cait +1
19:31 wizzyrea +1
19:31 imp +1
19:31 Nate +1
19:31 Donaran left #koha
19:31 IrmaCalyx +1
19:31 owen Okay, are we ready for item 2? Report on status of negotiations over assignment of trademarks and domains
19:31 Genji jransom++
19:31 Genji GeorgeSue++
19:31 Genji ..... Whos bob?
19:31 jransom thanks everyone
19:32 IrmaCalyx Bob Birchall from CALYX
19:32 jransom Bob Birchall, Calyx. 1 of the advisiors who has helped us for the last month
19:32 jransom so, we have been communicating with Josh.
19:32 chris he has a great deal of valuable experience we are benefitting from
19:32 Genji liblime.josh?
19:32 jransom yes.
19:32 pianohacker Genji: yes, joshua ferraro of liblime
19:33 jransom and to no conclusion.
19:33 jransom We made it clear we were working to this date, and it very freindly and open, ie asking what he needed to make this work.
19:33 owen jransom: How do you feel the inquiry was received?
19:34 jransom Our opinion is that he is just not interested.
19:34 jransom there has been no last minute flurry of stalling, horse trading etc.
19:34 Mickey please amplify/clarify
19:34 chris_n jransom: so basically no response?
19:34 jransom There has been 2 responses.
19:35 chris well once response repeated?
19:35 jransom Stalling, challenging the Trusts position
19:35 jransom Chris: essentially yes.
19:35 owen Challenging the Trust's position?
19:35 jransom we have asserted ourselves as the communitys chosen nonprofit organisation.
19:36 chris_n jransom: so what direction does the negotiating committee recommend at this point?
19:36 jransom ie elected by the community.
19:36 jransom we recommend abandoning the negotiations.
19:36 nicomo jransom: could you be more specific as to the response you've had?
19:36 jransom and we have a suggestion to go forward with.
19:36 vickiteal Has he said no, or is he evading the issue?
19:37 jransom He is stalling, Not no.
19:37 hdl_laptop Is he challenging your role ?
19:37 jransom but asking unreasonable questions. about our future plans
19:37 thd jransom: Was there nothing from LibLime which could imply maybe under condition X?
19:37 jransom nothing at all.
19:37 richard joined #koha
19:37 richard hi
19:37 jransom no mention of money
19:37 chris i have seen the responses, as have galen and Bob
19:37 chris as we were elected to help jo in the last meeting
19:38 slef3g I saw some more llek sales pr. doesn't seem like they should be short of
19:38 dcage left #koha
19:38 jransom I think he stalling with no intention of playing nicely.
19:39 jransom confirmed in a letter from a university librarian who asked him specifically about this at a conference.
19:39 slef3g so I agree it's most likely will. +1 to recommend
19:39 chris and no, there is nothing in his message to suggest they will
19:39 gmcharlt I concur
19:39 wizzyrea so, if we are abandoning negotiations, what's the next step?
19:39 chris_n jransom: can we hear the suggestions?
19:39 jransom I would like tomake a suggestion
19:39 jransom sure
19:40 jransom Chris, Galen and I had a talk after the last dev meeting.
19:40 jransom and we think we should rename / rebrand Koha as Open Koha and launch the new site with the domain.
19:41 jransom and launch it to coincide with the release of 3.2 in january.
19:41 chris well, we have only 2 options as i see it
19:41 chris move on
19:41 thd What about Free Koha?
19:41 chris with something like free koha, or open koha
19:41 chris or get into court battles ... .eeeewwww yc
19:41 kyle OpenKoha has a nice ring to it.
19:41 imp thd: free sounds like free-ware, not open as opensource is
19:41 jransom and have been claimed by a friend for us already (many months ago)
19:41 imp (imho)
19:42 magnusenger i have to agree with imp there
19:42 * nicomo agrees with imp
19:42 * owen too
19:42 imp jransom: nice step :)
19:42 jransom January is 10 years to the month since we launched Koha
19:42 pianohacker We might have to table discussion of the final name, though my personal vote is for OpenKoha or Open Koha :)
19:42 chris i personally much prefer the term free software, to open source, but im willing to live with openkoha
19:42 sekjal I recognize the practicality of changing the name, but its REALLY irksome
19:42 chris_n very
19:42 thd imp: Free as in freedom, as in Free Software
19:42 wizzyrea with sekjal on that, like OpenKoha, if we have to
19:43 jransom and the new release is the perfect promo for "Koha carrrys on without liblime"
19:43 Genji OpenKoha... or FreeKoha.. but I think its saying it twice.
19:43 slef3g no to open. yes to shared or free or community or sustainable
19:43 dpavlin OpenKoha might be abbriviated to OK which is... OK :-)
19:43 chris ill still talk about koha as being free software, not opensource .. since the actions of companies like Liblime have soured the term open source
19:43 gmcharlt LibreKoha?  # just muddying the waters ;)
19:43 chris_n we should have lots of PR when we do this
19:43 Mickey whatever let's not get bogged down right now over nomenclature
19:43 pianohacker right
19:43 CGI942 joined #koha
19:43 nicomo gmcharlt: too Galic
19:43 jransom yep - need maximum promo
19:43 pianohacker could very easily be resolved by a poll, imho
19:43 jransom press release. blog posts everywhere
19:43 chris yep, the point is, that we think it might be time to call it a day and move on
19:43 slef3g ok mickey
19:43 thd imp: you can have open source without freedom to use, modify, redistribute your modified version
19:43 Genji Koha = free in maori right?
19:43 imp thd: don't get me wrong, but it's very hard to explain somebody that something is opensource and really open, freeware is something ugly, but those people tend to get the things wrong
19:43 jransom library journal story
19:44 CGI942 left #koha
19:44 * chris_n agrees with chris
19:44 gmcharlt Genji: more like 'gift', though chris can explain the nuances better
19:44 jransom (carrys on ignring everybody.. :)
19:44 Mickey decision to move ahead with a rebranding is the q?
19:44 kyle I believe Koha means 'A Gift'
19:44 jransom and we rebrand it
19:44 chris its a special type of gift
19:44 jransom chris resurrects the previous website
19:44 thd imp: people will get it wrong and I mean most people no matter what it is called
19:44 jransom we update it
19:44 jransom get the wiki and everything elase we can together
19:44 chris a gift with some strings ... just like free software
19:45 * Genji loves the original website. "Especially Rachel's origin of koha story."
19:45 chris ok
19:45 sekjal its going to be hard to get the community to agree on a new name, but its probably for the best
19:45 chris this is probably paranoia
19:45 chris but now this is public
19:45 jransom Chris: is your emplyer willing to commit resources to get a new site up?
19:45 jransom question is, is it faesible to do this in time?
19:45 chris can someone please get a copy of the wiki and bugzilla right now
19:45 thd Genji++
19:46 owen This is big decision folks, are we prepared to move forward on this plan just with the consensus of those present today?
19:46 pianohacker Do we have an official date for 3.2 set? Didn't see it in the dev meeting notes, but I could have missed it
19:46 chris owen; hell no
19:46 chris this is just the opinion of 3 people
19:46 chris myself included
19:46 Genji chris: liblime could be scanning the realtime log, and may pull those two at any moment?
19:46 jransom 3.2 is  the perfect perfect opportunity to launch the new Koha
19:46 owen Okay, then what's the next step?
19:46 chris Genji: like i say paranoia
19:47 * owen is feeling the same paranoia lately
19:47 jransom is someone grabbing those 2 things?
19:47 imp maybe the disscusion about a new name should be moved to the mailinglist? don't think it's critical right now (and doodle it later or something like that)
19:47 chris the important point to decide is
19:47 pianohacker Set up a poll with 2 questions: Whether to change name, and if so, ranking of choices?
19:47 Genji How do I get an export of those two things?
19:47 nicomo pianohacker: ++
19:47 chris do we want to persist trying to get back from liblime
19:47 chris or do we call it a day, and work on a plan to move on
19:48 chris a possible plan being rebrand and launch in time for 3.2
19:48 chris_n I'd say we leave the name with them and go our own way
19:48 hdl_laptop i think we have to call it a day.
19:48 owen At this point I think we have to rely on the advice of those who have been involved with the negotiations
19:48 wizzyrea question: what would prevent a non open koha vendor from using openkoha code?
19:48 pianohacker (above is just to continue precedent of using polls for decision making)
19:48 magnusenger call it a day, move on, use energy on something constructive
19:48 Mickey cost-benefit. is it worth a protracted fight? or not?
19:48 chris wizzyrea: nothing and we dont want to
19:48 hdl_laptop It's been some time now we are stuck.
19:48 Genji Anyone grabbing the wiki and bugzilla? How is a full grab done?
19:48 owen We don't even have any framework established for carrying out a court fight
19:48 gmcharlt wizzyrea: chris has it
19:49 sekjal I just tried wget -r on both; no dice
19:49 SelfishMan I'm coming in late but it seems to me that changing the name will kill the reputation of koha
19:49 slef3g doodle ok for majorities but bad at consensus building
19:49 chris SelfishMan: the reputation of koha is currently being killed
19:49 imp wizzyrea: you can choose a licence, which will (theoreticaly) force them to send their patches upstream
19:49 jransom yep.
19:49 kyle SelfishMan: I think the reputation of Koha will follow the community if it is said loud and clear. OpenKoha isn't much of a leap.
19:49 wizzyrea imp: that's more of what I was getting at
19:50 pianohacker imp: AGPL is a possibility, but I think it was regarded as a step too far in the other direction
19:50 Mickey koha is stronger than its specific brand at this point; it has surpassed critical mass
19:50 Genji sekjal: no dice?
19:50 hdl_laptop slef3g: I don't think we have to make concensus on the name. majority is ok.
19:50 sekjal I'm getting blocked by robots.txt, I think
19:50 jransom and i think we have to be strong and assertive now and send a clear message that Koha Community is strong and determined to control our own destiny.
19:50 owen If we start fresh with an identity that is owned by a foundation then it doesn't matter if a company doesn't want to share
19:50 Nate Can we make the change in the name to come after the word "Koha"
19:50 owen At least they can hijack the identity
19:50 imp if somebody tells me what to mirror, i can try to get it
19:51 magnusenger jransom++
19:51 vickiteal May I make a suggestion?
19:51 Nate like KohaCommunity
19:51 chris vickiteal: go right ahead
19:51 kyle I doubt anyone cares about the name as much as they care about the software functioning.
19:51 Nate Never underestimate the power of branding
19:51 vickiteal I'm wondering if we could give the LibLime customers some time to see if they could sway LibLime from relinquishing
19:51 jransom this willsend shockwaves through libraryland - people will hear about the new name :)
19:52 Genji Can the wiki and bugzilla be exported in their native formats? or will we just have to do html dumps?
19:52 vickiteal Is there are rush to make such a huge change?
19:52 chris vickiteal: id love to believe they could, but so far they seem unable to shift them to even releasing the code :(
19:52 Marijana left #koha
19:52 wizzyrea vickiteal I was thinking the same thing
19:52 owen Genji: Let's save that discussion for later
19:52 Genji owen: hopefully there is a later.
19:52 pianohacker vickiteal: that _might_ have possibilities; my impression was that customer pressure was a part of the recent shift to lek, no?
19:52 chris vickiteal: we ahve been locked out of for a year now
19:52 sekjal Genji: changed my browser in wget, got better results
19:52 jransom we have this huge promo - launch opportunity in 1 month to relaunch Koha.
19:52 chris this isnt rushed, its positively glacial
19:52 vickiteal I don't know that the customers have tried that hard yet.
19:52 wizzyrea yea, except a lot of ... what she said
19:53 kyle Nate: true, that is why I'm for OpenKoha. I suppose I was speaking as an existing Koha user :)
19:53 wizzyrea we were waiting to see what the official outcome was
19:53 chris liblime didnt just wake up 2 months ago and decide to stop playing nice, its been happening for over a year
19:53 chris i personally feel they have had more than enough time
19:53 owen vickiteal: I don't have a good sense of what LibLime customers even think of all this, only a few data points
19:53 chris but if others feel like we should wait longer
19:53 Marijana joined #koha
19:53 Marijana left #koha
19:53 chris im happy to do so
19:53 jransom the email I had from a LL university client was very sad
19:53 owen Could they be persuaded to talk to LibLime, or do they not want to make waves?
19:54 Marijana joined #koha
19:54 SelfishMan btw, I'm ripping now
19:54 owen ("they" in general)
19:54 nengard i'm back
19:54 slef3g hdl: disagree. consensus better
19:54 nengard thought that would be quicker
19:54 jransom If the community wishes to play the LL game for longer then so be it.
19:54 vickiteal Owen: good question. I'm not even making a commitment, but I think we would like the opportunity to discuss with other customers.
19:54 sekjal with any luck, the newly forming KUDOS can serve to promote the community in contrast to LL
19:54 chris_n I think the only thing that will persuade LL at this point would be a mass exodus of customers
19:54 thd If there is a serious concern about the US trademark. prepending a word will not change the issue.
19:55 owen thd: What do you mean?
19:55 vickiteal I undertand problem has been around for a while, but to me it still feels new.
19:55 jransom But if we want to move forward we have a perfect opportunity to make a big splash.
19:55 Mickey yes. what exactly does waiting gain us?
19:56 chris my fear is, and after reading someones thesis last night, its even more real that liblime are trashing the reputation of koha
19:56 SelfishMan kyle, chris: I don't doubt the reputation is being killed.  I guess I should have said "brand recognition" instead of reputation.  It has taken a long time to get local libraries to consider koha and changing the name will scare them away again.
19:56 owen Alright everyone, let's focus on the next step
19:56 chris i think the longer we stay, the more trashed it is getting
19:56 jdavidb_meeting is now known as jdavidb
19:56 thd own: Open Koha would also use the US trademark just as much as Koha alone in the context of library software for which Koha is trademarked in the US.
19:56 kyle chris++
19:56 richard is now known as rich-away
19:56 jransom Chris ++
19:57 owen How do we arrive at a communal decision on the identity-change issue?
19:57 slef3g battery low. no recharge chance. sorry all
19:57 pianohacker slef3g: Thanks for coming regardless
19:57 jransom I would like to move that we do.
19:57 * chris_n motions we move forward on identity change
19:57 vickiteal I think rushing without exhausting all possibilities may do more harm to Koha, than to take another month or so to see if LL customers can do something.
19:57 kyle If OpenKoha is too big of a gray area, I think another Maori would would suffice.
19:57 jransom we have had a year of mucking around Vivky.
19:57 chris i dont think we are rushing
19:57 vickiteal If they decide not to, or there is no positivie outcome then at least you know that everything was tried.
19:57 jransom how much longer do you think is reasonable?
19:57 nicomo thd: a change of domain name doesn't resolve all the issues (like TM) but it solves pratical issues (the web site)
19:57 SelfishMan I hate to say it, but I think we are screwed.  You guys are right, a name change is required.  Doing it with the next release would be the way to go
19:57 nengard i'm with chris and jransom - we're not rushing
19:58 slef3g kyle++
19:58 vickiteal One month.
19:58 SelfishMan maybe instead of the next 3.x go 4.0?
19:58 nicomo vickiteal: dec. 25th?
19:58 owen SelfishMan: LibLime has already done that :|
19:58 chris naw its not a big feature release
19:58 chris its a performance clean up one, 3.4 is a perfect number ;)
19:58 kyle SelfishMan, Chris: Then we go to 11!
19:58 chris_n hehe
19:59 jransom 3.2 is a big release.
19:59 thd nicomo: yes certainly the domain has to be solved and multiple domains can point to the same place even without a name distincion for the software
19:59 SelfishMan I'm just thinking that incrementing the major version with a new name would "sell" better
19:59 jransom and doing nothing means we continue with the website access problems,
19:59 owen We need to have an up-or-down vote on whether to proceed with the identity change. Should that happen here, now, or under a more formal framework?
19:59 thd I do fear changing the Koha part of the name on a practical basis for recognition.
20:00 kyle If we ever get back, we could always redirect to the new 'home base' url
20:00 thd Preending is fine
20:00 jransom and with potential koha libraries landing on liblime when they are looking for koha community
20:00 chris if vicki is confident liblime customers can sway joshua's mind
20:00 SelfishMan owen: I could be wrong but it seems to me that the majority of the people that are heavily attached to the project are in this channel.  I say do it hear when the time comes
20:00 chris i think we should give them time
20:00 jransom kyle: my thoughts excatly
20:00 nicomo jransom: yep, SEO for the new web site will have to be reaaally good
20:00 chris but i fear that they have little chance in doing so :(
20:01 CGI529 joined #koha
20:01 chris_n vikiteal: how do you propose to go about changing Josh's mind?
20:01 vickiteal I am not confident. But, I think that we should be given the opportunity to discuss it and try. We had to wait to see what the Trust could do first.
20:01 SelfishMan I know of a few local liblime customers that are terminating their contracts over this
20:01 chris would 2 weeks be enough time vickiteal ?
20:01 pianohacker vickiteal: Also, how much would you be pushing for?
20:01 vickiteal Ask him.
20:01 pianohacker (possibly)
20:01 owen I think vickiteal should try.
20:01 jransom Timely to announce now that Biblibre and HLT have started the process of transferring the EU Koha trademark over to HLT. At no cost to HLT.
20:01 chris_n I think LL's customers have the teeth to do it, but I wonder about the practicality of showing them
20:01 CGI529 left #koha
20:02 vickiteal Josh is going to be on vacation and will not be back until December 17th.
20:02 jransom We have asked Josh for the community assets, and asked he needs to have in order to give back the domain name.
20:02 vickiteal I guess we could commit to December 24th.
20:02 slef3g last I saw that was only a tm attempt
20:03 chris slef3g: ?
20:03 nicomo eh eh slef3g I would have been disappointed not hearing from you on this
20:03 vickiteal f someone could send me an email with what to ask for, I can discuss it with other customers and we can do our best.
20:03 chris slef3g: whatever it is, its being transferred to HLT
20:03 pianohacker vickiteal: if that works, would be an excellent noche buena gift :)
20:03 nicomo I just filed the paperwork to transfer the TM process to HLT
20:03 wizzyrea nicomo++
20:03 owen nicomo++
20:03 nicomo slef3g: want a copy?
20:03 nicomo :-)
20:03 slef3g our coop is first vendor in uk and some other eu states
20:03 chris_n nicomo++
20:03 slef3g our coop is first vendor in uk and some other eu states
20:03 vickiteal As I said, I'm not making promisies. Just want to try.
20:04 chris you know the people who could fix all this right now
20:04 chris in 10 minutes
20:04 chris are the high ups in waldo
20:04 Genji Wow. the wiki is huge.
20:04 vickiteal I ahve to leave for another meeting, but I will stay logged in so I can read the rest of the meeting.
20:04 chris_n chris: yup
20:04 chris but they are the ones defending it
20:04 wizzyrea do we know for sure they are defending the hijack of community koha assets?
20:04 sekjal I've had contact with one Rob Karen at WALDO
20:04 sekjal I could try reigniting that discussion
20:04 chris well they defended LEK
20:04 chris_n chris: I wonder if they are not responsible for this mess in the final analysis
20:04 cait i missed ben ide on the mailinglist lately
20:04 slef3g it is a process not the finished tm. up or ll or more could object
20:04 wizzyrea of course they did, they paid for it ^.^
20:05 chris wizzyrea: my point entirely
20:05 chris ok, how about a vote
20:05 wizzyrea but I'm not sure they have a stake in the koha community assets
20:05 wizzyrea only in LEK
20:05 chris_n chris: on?
20:05 chris should we give LL customers (led by vickiteal) until december 24
20:05 chris to try their hand
20:05 * chris_n seconds the motion
20:05 chris and persuading LL to see reason
20:05 thd ++
20:05 * owen votes yes
20:05 wizzyrea pitch it to waldo as it's taking away staff assets (time, attention) to deal with these community assets
20:05 sekjal +1
20:06 chris s/and/at/
20:06 cait +1
20:06 nengard I have to say this all confuses me - if the real koha is going to be openkoha and advertised as such - what value does have - why not just give it up and move on with things?
20:06 chris +1
20:06 imp 1
20:06 nicomo yes
20:06 imp +1
20:06 Nate +1 coca cola would fight tooth and nail for their name with good reason
20:06 kyle A late thought, instead of having a version number battle, why not move to a date based versioning system like Ubuntu? Koha 9.12?
20:06 nengard +1
20:06 owen nengard: This is our last-ditch effort to avoid the identity change
20:06 * SelfishMan votes yes
20:06 jransom +1
20:06 * pianohacker seconds the motion, with note that we might want to start discussions on naming and identity change regardless of outcome
20:06 SelfishMan (if my vote even counts)
20:06 pianohacker So we're ready
20:06 Genji vickiteal++
20:06 chris good idea pianohacker
20:06 wizzyrea i vote yes
20:06 hdl_laptop pianohacker++
20:06 owen SelfishMan: Why wouldn't it?
20:07 jransom pianohacker++
20:07 nengard yeah - i get that - owen - I just don't get why LL is being so stubborn - if we change the name there is no value left in - so it's pointless to hold on to it so tightly
20:07 rhcl_away is now known as rhcl
20:07 nicomo by the way, vickiteal's effort is not incompatible with our moving forward
20:07 pianohacker s/start discussions/start discussions now/
20:07 thd nengard:everything now points to koha .org all over the internet and those links are not going to change in any hury
20:07 owen nengard: From their point of view theirs is the only one worth having
20:07 chris and please if people could do nightly backups for the wiki and bugzilla that would stop me fearing so much
20:07 Mickey sorry must leave best to all
20:07 Mickey left #koha
20:08 nengard thd - we're a pretty noisy bunch we can get it to change pretty damn fast :)
20:08 chris ok, next agenda item?
20:08 nengard and owen - theirs is LEK - not koha ... but whatever - semanics
20:08 wizzyrea nengard: it's equivalent in their minds
20:08 pianohacker nengard: still good to have, if as nothing other than a redirector service, but we're getting ahead of ourselves
20:08 wizzyrea and winning a branding battle is establishing those equivalents
20:08 sekjal I think LL still really thinks they and their customers are definitive Koha community; hence the challenge to HLT
20:08 chris wizzyrea: and in others .. thats the problem
20:08 owen I think we're on to Item 5 on the Agenda (3 and 4 being moot apparently)
20:08 SelfishMan So, is there an offical statement/description of what is happening to be passed on to those that aren't well versed in this whole issue?
20:09 IrmaCalyx I vote yes
20:09 owen Report on legal status of Ohio based Koha Foundation
20:09 nengard pianohacker - oh i agree it's good for us to have - just don't see how it helps them - but you're right - ahead of ourselves
20:09 vickiteal left #koha
20:09 chris thd: can you speak to this?
20:09 owen Or is the Ohio based Koha Foundation moot as well?
20:09 chris SelfishMan: i will endavour to get that in the minutes
20:09 brendan this is what we found :
20:09 nengard sekjal - their customers are aksing us for help cause they can't get answers from support
20:10 brendan owen it does seem moot at this point
20:10 brendan Ok here is the info we have discovered about the existing Koha Foundation and how we (the community) can gain control of it.
20:10 brendan
20:10 brendan 1. Research the bylaws; there should be some rules about membership and voting. We could get everyone to join the existing foundation,
20:10 brendan then vote the agent who is on the foundations filed documents off and replace them with someone else.
20:10 brendan
20:10 brendan 2. File a separate foundation under a similar but different name.
20:10 brendan As long as they have a tax  ID# associated with the existing foundation we cannot create a foundation with the same name in a different state.
20:10 brendan However we are free to create a foundation supporting the same software under a different name, for example Koha Open Source Foundation etc...
20:10 thd chris: brendan did the research
20:10 brendan
20:10 brendan 3. Have the present agent on the filed foundation sign over their status to another agent (Horowhenua Library Trust).
20:10 brendan This would require Liblime to agree to the hand off.
20:10 sledei joined #koha
20:10 brendan sorry if that doesn't come through clearly -- I could use paste - if need be
20:10 SelfishMan I have to run, best of luck everyone.  I'll be reading the scrollback later tonight
20:10 sledei slef again
20:11 owen brendan: Does LL's Koha foundation even have bylaws?
20:11 brendan not that we have found or seen
20:11 sekjal nengard:  I've noticed.  there is clearly some cognitive dissonence going on
20:11 pianohacker brendan: do they have to be public to be valid?
20:11 owen So the name registration is pretty much just a blocker
20:11 thd Does it have a federal tax ID?
20:11 imp hm, just start another foundation under the law of another land?
20:12 brendan we could not find a federal tax ID
20:12 brendan with the searches we did
20:12 pianohacker imp: us based nonprofit is useful for fundraising here in the states
20:12 brendan with some money - a more advanced search would be possible
20:12 chris owen: yes it appears it was only registered to stop anyone else registering it
20:13 nengard brendan - money - or a librarian in a business library - is there anyone here like that?
20:13 nengard with access to the necessary databases?
20:13 brendan business librarian would work -- I believe
20:13 sekjal I think my wife has some business resources at her library
20:13 sekjal I could ask her to perform a search... not sure if she has time, though
20:13 chris nengard: could you ask your friends in SLA
20:13 chris ?
20:13 sledei wonder if a law lib would help?
20:13 wizzyrea which databases are you thinking of
20:14 nengard chris, I could do just that - I just need to know what we're looking or specifically
20:14 thd I think that SIBL in New York would have  appropriate databases
20:14 nengard and as for law library - I have connections at jenkins law library - but they do charge for business searhces
20:14 nengard searches
20:14 chris putting my paranoia hat on again
20:14 Genji So, Liblime is actively blocking us from taking Koha back?
20:14 chris this is all public and logged
20:14 thd Most everything is free at SIBL
20:14 nengard Genji - actively in their inactivity
20:14 brendan nengard - that's what i've found
20:14 nengard ...
20:14 slef3g left #koha
20:14 jransom left #koha
20:15 nengard it's cause the searches cost them money too
20:15 nengard I can ask my connections though
20:15 chris talking about what we might do to get the already registered foundation, probably means they will block whatever we do
20:15 jransom joined #koha
20:15 imp pianohacker: if it's just the name, create one outside the states, and a second one inside (with another name) and link from the on outside the usa to the one inside (guess it's possible to make the states-based one, member of the other one)
20:15 chris forewarned is forearmed and all that
20:15 Genji Registering a bogus Foundation, right where we want it, name what we want... I'd say thats active.
20:15 thd SIBL is merely a question of signing up for a time slot on the right terminal and knowing how to conduct the search properly
20:16 GeorgeSue Registration?? If the country you are registering in is party to the International Treaty, one registration will suffice
20:16 sledei if ll do, it'd be nice to know it's time to give up on them
20:16 pianohacker Genji: It's possible it was originally formed with better intentions and later ignored/abandoned
20:16 brendan owen - that's it from me, whenever you want to move on
20:16 chris GeorgeSue: ohh thanks for that information
20:16 owen nengard: You'll see what else you can find out and report at the next meeting?
20:16 jdavidb left #koha
20:17 * owen isn't sure it'll mean much, but good to know more
20:17 nengard owen, yes I will try my connections - if someone has a better connection (like a wife) let me know and I'll stop pushing for info
20:17 thd I would not impute the motive at the time it was registered
20:17 pianohacker GeorgeSue: But does that go both ways? Does the existing LL-founded US foundation affect any plans for foundations in other nations?
20:17 sekjal nengard:  I'll let you know
20:17 nengard :)
20:18 GeorgeSue Depends on the place of registration
20:18 thd nengard: you are the best connected person I know
20:18 nengard hehe :) I try very hard to stay that way :)
20:19 owen The next item on the agenda is the date of the next meeting, but I'm wondering if we still need to resolve anything about the identity-change voting process. Should this be in process during the next month, or is it tabled until vicki reports back?
20:19 sledei dinner for me. will read log and reply if needed
20:19 jransom are we really  going to meet back on christmas eve?
20:19 nengard i won't be here :)
20:20 thd owen: That may be a question of whether doing both helps or hinders vicky
20:20 jransom i don't want to be here :)
20:20 GeorgeSue Sorry I wont be thereeither
20:20 owen No, but if vicki was able to report back to someone by then we might be able to plan better for the next meeting
20:20 sledei would prefer other day but will be here if i have net
20:20 jransom I think we do proceed along dual paths
20:20 sledei left #koha
20:20 jransom and abandon one when we need to
20:21 owen Shall we suggest that she contact jransom directly with what she finds out?
20:21 jransom then we lose nothing.
20:21 owen ...since jransom was part of the first round of negotiations?
20:21 chris jransom++
20:21 wizzyrea jransom I think that sounds reasonable
20:21 jransom I'm happy to share with Vivky anything useful and helpful
20:22 pianohacker jransom: agreed. We should include in any mailing list posts that this _is_ one of two possible paths, but we should go forward with both
20:22 hdl_laptop jransom++
20:22 jransom pursue both with equal vigour :)
20:22 owen jransom: What would you propose to do to proceed along the other path, the identity change one?
20:22 IrmaCalyx dual progress is the go!
20:23 jransom get endorsement on the principle to relaunch.
20:23 jransom vote on name
20:23 jransom then domain names
20:23 jransom website up
20:23 jransom press releases written
20:23 jransom so those steps.
20:23 jransom will need to be done - but in what order and whan?
20:23 owen I'm not sure we can get endorsement from the community without hindering vicki's efforts
20:23 IrmaCalyx original Koha, mother Koha, Koha #1, ....
20:24 chris i concur
20:24 jransom maybe the website needs to start immediately
20:24 chris i think forget about the endorsment or name
20:24 jransom can slap on branding near the end when we have a name and logo
20:24 chris BUT
20:24 Genji We need to register the new name, so liblime doesn't claim it, too?
20:24 jransom yes.
20:24 chris we already have
20:24 jransom OpenKoha is ready for us now.
20:24 Genji i mean, in a trademark/legal sense.
20:24 chris what we should be doing
20:24 CGI669 joined #koha
20:24 LBA joined #koha
20:25 jransom ah yes.
20:25 Genji Else liblime might try to claim prior.
20:25 chris is backing up the sites, getting alternate bugzillas, wikis running and alternate website if we need them
20:25 jransom Can someone register that in the states today and cheaply?
20:25 chris turn them all off afterwards
20:25 chris jransom: no
20:25 chris nothing is cheap with lawyers
20:25 thd Genji: OpenKoha would probably be a conflicting trademark in the US.
20:25 chris and lets just dial it back a notch
20:25 jransom which would mean LL can't grab it either
20:26 chris we have voted to let vicki try
20:26 chris lets not queer the deal
20:26 thd Free software project get free lawyers and very good ones.
20:26 chris lets get sites set up we can use, and we can slap a anme on them when/if thats needed
20:26 nengard 3 emails sent out to special librarians - we'll see where that goes
20:26 pianohacker nengard++
20:27 owen chris++
20:27 wizzyrea chris: i like that idea, they can be merged if need be with
20:27 chris exactly
20:27 imp Genji: was koha started by liblime? or community based? (iirc the stuff correct about trademarks, you can get the right to use them, by doing so over a long period of time... can't express it right now correct (and it might be only german law))
20:27 chris imp: it was most certainly not started by liblime
20:27 imp thd: right :)
20:27 Genji imp: Koha, was started by HLT, via Katipo.
20:27 jransom HLT would be happy to let HLT status as the non profit be used to 'house' these community wikis etc in the interim
20:27 CGI669 left #koha
20:27 Genji But then signed over to liblime....
20:28 chris only the domain name
20:28 chris katipo and hlt had no trademarks
20:28 chris you cant trademark koha in nz
20:28 chris that would be retarded
20:28 Genji No?
20:28 thd The trademark issue might be good for EFF
20:28 jransom it would be like trademarking 'Hello' in USA
20:28 Ngai joined #koha
20:28 thd EFF may b better on trademarks than SFLC.
20:28 jransom waves at Ngai
20:28 Genji I love this.... Direct from
20:28 Genji The Koha -- Open Source Library System is � 1999-2009 by LibLime & the Koha Development Team
20:29 pianohacker fyi:[…]e=4010:80qv82.2.2
20:29 jransom yes... etxactly ....
20:29 Genji Koha� and the Koha logo are trademarks or registered trademarks of LibLime and BibLibre in the United States, France and other countries. Distributed under the GNU GPL license.
20:29 chris ok, we could talk about this all day :)
20:29 chris but i think we need to move on
20:29 jransom so is the plan that we start getting community website up and open
20:29 owen Do we need to decide who is going to work on mirrors of bugzilla and the wiki?
20:30 pianohacker chris: motion to table discussion of changing name and what to change it to for after dec 24?
20:30 jransom with an undecided name
20:30 chris pianohacker: seconded
20:30 owen +1
20:30 gmcharlt +1
20:30 Ata joined #koha
20:30 IrmaCalyx +1
20:30 sekjal +1
20:30 imp if you use, lets say "foobar" for your product for 10 years (but never register it) and somebody else trys to register it for a product in the same sector, you can get the name back (at least under german law, dunno how that stuff is handled elsewhere)
20:30 jransom we could ask Joshua if he could please point to the community site from his one ...
20:30 thd ++
20:30 cait +1
20:30 jransom +1
20:30 hdl_laptop +1
20:31 SelfishMan I am mirroring the wiki now. it is rough but complete
20:31 CGI018 joined #koha
20:31 imp +1
20:31 nicomo +1
20:31 owen Do we have a date for the next developers' meeting?
20:31 Genji mirroring it too, using HTTrack. 25mb down so far.
20:31 chris yes
20:32 pianohacker owen: dec 13, I believe
20:32 owen It's customary to schedule the foundation meeting for the next day, no?
20:32 jransom Offering HLT 'name' or domain for temporary use by Koha community if it would be useful for the temp 'new' 'just in case' site
20:32 thd owen: 13 Jan
20:32 chris and we can never have 2 many mirrors :)
20:32 pianohacker ohh, nvm, typo on my end, thanks thd
20:32 jransom what date scheduled for koha 3.2 release
20:32 jransom and do we have flexibility with that?
20:33 gmcharlt jransom: January
20:33 SelfishMan is anyone fetching bugzilla?
20:33 thd jransom: that will be ready when you fix any blocking bugs
20:33 gmcharlt but I'd prefer not to go too far past january
20:33 chris SelfishMan: pie is
20:33 jransom ok - i'll be testing it extensively next week
20:33 rhcl If anybody is keeping notes Greg Lawson from Rolling Hills Consolidated Library joined late but observed all pertinent proceedings.
20:33 chris thanks rhcl
20:33 owen Should we try to schedule the next foundation meeting earlier in Jan. ? The fifth, perhaps?
20:34 jransom i prefer earlier Jan than mid
20:34 pie yeah, it's taking a while though
20:34 pie 972/3855 bugs
20:34 pie :(
20:34 pie then the attachments (1200ish)
20:34 pianohacker Should we also make a decision to start name discussions asap after dec 24th, or just wait until the foundation meeting in jan?
20:34 jransom so the 5th jan?
20:35 nengard ths is good for me
20:35 jransom I think we could start name discussions.
20:35 nengard or 5th is good for me
20:35 owen Are we rotating meeting times, or is this time good?
20:35 SelfishMan for the record, i can offer high speed http and rsync mirrors in the uk and multiple points in the us
20:35 jransom (not such a selfishman then!)
20:35 nengard hehe
20:35 pie lol
20:35 gmcharlt owen: I think this time is good for the foundation meeting
20:36 nengard yes - this time is good
20:36 jransom me to
20:36 SelfishMan jransom: exactly!
20:36 owen Motion to schedule the next meeting: 19:00 UTC+0 on 5 January 2010
20:36 nengard +1
20:36 gmcharlt second
20:36 chris +1
20:36 jransom so my task is to work with Bob to get sometime 'up' for discussion about the koha subcommittee of HLT
20:36 pianohacker +1
20:37 jransom +1
20:37 veryinky joined #koha
20:37 veryinky Hi.
20:37 hdl_laptop +1
20:37 cait +1
20:37 chris SelfishMan: thank you for that offer
20:37 pianohacker I'm sure than any announcement from vickiteal/jransom on the mailing list of result of negotiations will create more than enough discussion, no formal decision needed there :)
20:37 imp +1
20:37 owen any loose ends we need to tie up before calling an end to the meeting?
20:37 pianohacker owen: final decision on temp site hosting?
20:38 SelfishMan chris: that goes for dns as well. anything else i can probably do if needed.
20:38 thd ++
20:38 * gmcharlt muses - "KittenKoha"?, then runs off
20:38 owen I think all we can do is ask for volunteers
20:38 veryinky Koha 3.0.2, the error in file is fixed?
20:38 Genji Ya.. so I know who to send my mirrored files to.
20:38 wizzyrea afk a lil (LOL gmcharlt)
20:38 * nengard laughing at gmcharlt
20:38 jransom (slaps galen)
20:38 SelfishMan typing on this droid is slow so sorry if i'm way behind
20:38 pianohacker veryinky: meeting, but will end shortly; and then we can help you :)
20:38 gmcharlt owen: yep - and I'm sure we'll have no shortage of volunteers
20:38 veryinky Ah ok.
20:39 CGI090 joined #koha
20:39 chris catalyst will be able to host if needed
20:39 jransom mailing  list is the most open channel for sharing so we work on there yes?
20:39 Marijana left #koha
20:39 * gmcharlt is in favor of a lot of distributed - many entities doing hosting of various pieces of <insert name here>.org, and redundancy
20:39 Genji Whats the status of katipo in relation to Koha, these days?
20:39 chris they do koha support
20:39 jransom they are supporting it - have koha clients
20:40 chris gmcharlt++
20:40 SelfishMan gmcharlt: small world
20:40 gmcharlt jransom: agreed re the mailing list
20:40 pianohacker jransom: work meaning work on temp sites (that is, figure out temp sites there)?
20:40 * sekjal wonders if we could encapsulate Koha resources in Git...
20:40 Genji It would be somewhat poetic if Katipo could host the koha website again.
20:40 jransom oh it so would.
20:40 gmcharlt sekjal: depends on the CMS, but in principle, a lot of it could be put under version control
20:41 pianohacker Genji: Not sure if resources are available/being offered, but it would be poetic
20:41 jransom Rach is still the kaiwhakahaere so has the moral right to.
20:41 Genji Katipo + HLT, back again!
20:41 chris kaitiaki
20:41 jransom oops
20:41 jransom Kaitiaki
20:42 chris drupal is what i would lean towards, catalyst, katipo and biblibre all have signficant drupal expertise
20:42 jransom Richard was here but is gone now - Chris: you want to ask Rach or shall I?.
20:42 nengard not that my opinion mattes here - but i hate drupal
20:42 chris and it allows collaboration well
20:42 thd gmcharlt++ distributed redundancy
20:42 chris i hate all cms's
20:42 pianohacker nengard: Well, for which reasons?
20:42 pie sekjal: I was just thinking that too ... I have a bug tracker that saves things in Git, but probably wouldn't be that useful in this situation :)
20:42 chris but i hate plone a million times more than drupal
20:43 owen plone--
20:43 SelfishMan drupal--
20:43 imp trac++
20:43 nengard pianohacker the interface is not intuitive, i don't think it's easy to customize the appearance and i disagree that it handles collaboration well - unless you want to really dig deep to figure it out
20:43 Genji doesn't katipo have their own cms?
20:43 * veryinky will be back, need to check something.
20:43 veryinky left #koha
20:43 chris
20:43 chris is drupal
20:43 sekjal it would probably take some work, but perhaps we could find a way to distill the essential data, put it in a Gig repo, then let different hosts display the data in the CMS of their choice
20:43 davi trac++
20:43 hdl_laptop kea
20:43 chris you can customise it
20:43 nengard but i'm with chris - not sure there is one that's any better - except wordpress - which is what i use for all websites - and wordpress mu would make it so tat we could have a real community site on the new domain
20:43 jransom yep... but i think they are moving towards other solutions ie drupal
20:44 nengard chris - yeah if you're a very patient person
20:44 nengard and i'm not :)
20:44 sekjal wordpress++
20:44 nengard wordpress is what nekls uses
20:44 chris nengard: exactly but like i said, catalyst, biblibre and katipo have significant drupal skills
20:44 nengard yup - which is why i said my opionion didn't matter
20:44 pianohacker owen: as this is kind of a secondary discussion, consider meeting over?
20:44 chris yep
20:44 Ata wordpress++++
20:44 gmcharlt of course, ultimately it depends on what can be set up reasonably quickly, though I wouldn't mind Drupal or WPMU
20:44 Genji Anyway, yes, please someone email Rach.
20:44 jransom if chris is going to use his inhouse team then i think he should make the call
20:45 SelfishMan is a cms even needed?
20:45 CGI018 \nick kyle_laptop
20:45 jransom we want tomake this easy if we can
20:45 owen I've only heard Catalyst volunteered
20:45 thd chris: you can customise Zope without Plone fairly easily in Python
20:45 SelfishMan zope--
20:46 owen ...but I'm happy to let the discussion continue and call the meeting closed for folks who aren't interested
20:46 CGI018 what about joomla?
20:46 thd SelfishMan: Zope underlies Plone
20:46 jransom katipo use that a bit too
20:46 wizzyrea nekls has erm, considerable wp experience >.>
20:46 chris ok, im bailing out on this
20:46 brendan we would be more than happy to offer some webspace up
20:46 chris cos this could go on for years
20:46 wizzyrea hehe for re al
20:46 brendan *nods*
20:46 sekjal horribly impractical idea:  develop our own Wave client, and use that for all the community's DNA
20:46 rhcl We tested both Joomla and Drupal here, and found that Drupal was much better overall and much easier to work with. YMMV
20:46 chris i dont actually care what is running the site
20:46 wizzyrea my kid says hi
20:47 jransom can i suggest that chris just does it
20:47 SelfishMan thd: not a big fan of zope but my bias is five years old
20:47 * Genji laughs.
20:47 chris lets jsut have one that more than just liblime can edit please
20:47 brendan heh
20:47 nengard yup yup
20:47 Ropuch Hello everybody
20:47 thd chris++
20:47 SelfishMan jransom++
20:47 jransom chris++
20:47 * Genji nods. "Would love it if katipo hosts it, poetic.. .but it doesn't really matter, as long as its hosted.
20:48 pie hey guys, not sure if this even helps, but I've been working on a site for KohaCon for next year ...
20:48 nengard i'm with chris - i don't care where it is as long as multiple people have rights to edit everything!
20:48 pie <- though the images and suchlike don't load at the moment :(
20:48 imp what's the aim with an cms? for news? or wiki and such stuff?
20:48 magnusenger how about using a wiki for as much as possible, and then something relatively simple like wp strictly for news?
20:48 thd The good thing about Plone is the CSS which were allso adapted for Wikidedia
20:48 pie anyone with a Google Account can get admin access (though not much there at the moment)
20:48 wizzyrea ohh you said the G word
20:48 nengard magnusenger - i find the wiki very hard to navigate - and we need the site to promote the software with more than just news
20:48 pie heh, oopse
20:49 thd LibLime discarded the Plone CSS and started over to some degree
20:49 pianohacker thd: that would explain why it seems to alternate between crashing and 3-second freezing firefox...
20:49 magnusenger nengard: agree that the current wiki is hard, i would prefer MediaWiki...
20:49 * imp would be happy about something like trac, you can browse the source, statics sites, wiki, even a forum if you like - what do you want more?
20:50 nengard mediawiki would be no easier to navigate
20:50 thd nengard: I have a solution for Wiki navigation
20:50 nengard not with the amount of content we have :)
20:50 wizzyrea i would love to see something like the wordpress codex
20:50 sekjal I really like the idea of separating the community data from its presentation logic.
20:51 magnusenger nengard: i think it's easier to structure, but probably just because i know it better...
20:51 nengard oooo i like wizzyrea's idea :)
20:51 sekjal get some kind of structured data format that most of the major CMS's can ingest, roll it up in Git, and distribute.
20:52 thd nengard: While I think that MediaWiki is the best internationalisations solution for the long term.  I have been running a customised verson of DokUWiki templates for three years with the aim of improving readablility and navigation
20:52 pianohacker
20:52 chris ok, thanks all
20:52 chris i have to get to work now
20:52 chris bbl
20:52 pianohacker cya chris
20:52 pie have fun (and see you soon) :)
20:52 wizzyrea we have two problems: 1. for promotion/landing site of koha, 2. for technical documentation
20:52 pianohacker wizzyrea: 3. bugzilla?
20:52 wizzyrea 2.1 and bug tracking
20:53 pianohacker *jinx*
20:53 pianohacker yeah, could be rolled into doc tool
20:53 pianohacker changing our bug db could be significantly harder than changing your CMS
20:53 owen pianohacker: How so?
20:53 pianohacker s/your/our/
20:53 thd nengard: I will propose community consideration of a change to a different set of templates for DokuWiki to better support navigation and readability in due course
20:53 nengard documentation will be in XML - so any site that can grab that and apply a stylesheet to generate the documentation works for me
20:53 nengard thd cool
20:53 pianohacker owen: even if not something like trac, the two are related to some extent
20:54 jransom are we finished now?
20:54 Genji uh... the koha logo is copyright Liblime now.... we need a new logo?
20:54 owen jransom: Yes, thanks for your help
20:54 jransom should realy go to work if the koha community meeting is finished
20:54 pianohacker Genji: Bleh, we'll have to figure that out when/if we start naming discussions
20:54 Ata left #koha
20:55 CGI018 left #koha
20:55 jransom soon - please
20:55 jransom to give time.
20:56 jransom also shows that we are deadly serious about sorting out this domain name situation
20:56 thd jransom: owen suggested that putting it all forward now would hurt vicki's prospects of succeeding
20:56 pianohacker jransom: I think the vote was to table until directly after dec 24
20:57 thd own: do you have further comment about what you think helps or hurts vicki's prospects?
20:57 thd owen: Do you have further comment about what you think helps or hurts vicki's prospects?
20:57 wizzyrea if LL thinks that we are serious about changing the name, then they won't be inclined to give us back our real name
20:57 owen I agree with wizzyrea
20:58 wizzyrea and they get all of that mindshare associated with the koha name
20:58 thd wizzyrea: I tend to agree
20:58 wizzyrea and they can go ahead and make basicallly
20:58 pianohacker a name change is a large step forward in both good and bad ways
20:58 owen But I think it's going to take some real agitating on the part of LL customers to make a difference
20:58 pianohacker owen: is your library self-supported?
20:58 jransom ok .
20:59 LBA is anyone organizing LL customers?
20:59 * pianohacker 's impression was that Nelsonville was an LL customer
20:59 Genji Im worried that LL will look at this log and freak.
20:59 owen pianohacker: We're still with LibLime for a while longer
20:59 jransom Vicky is I think.
20:59 thd own: how much do non-LEK customers count anymore in the mind of kados?
20:59 wizzyrea yes, there is organization within liblime customers
20:59 wizzyrea he still sells non-lek products
21:00 owen thd: I'm not sure non-WALDO customers count in the mind of kados. But that's just me being snarky, I don't really know.
21:00 sekjal LBA:  there is also KUDOS, the US-based Koha group, of which many members are/shall be LL customers
21:00 pianohacker Genji: I think that LL/Josh has been acting cynically lately but not publically petty
21:01 wizzyrea plus, he's apparently on vacay until the 17th
21:01 LBA Know about KUDOS.  Was wondering if LL customers were working together to put pressure on LL to do the right thing.  And who/what is Kados?
21:01 wizzyrea ^.^
21:01 chris LBA: kados is joshua
21:01 chris its his irc/wikipedia nick
21:01 LBA I'm happy to apply pressure...I have nothing to lose as a 3p consultant.
21:02 sekjal just out of curiousity, does anyone else here have a wikipedia login they use?  some pages in our general sphere have not been updated in recent history
21:02 veryinky joined #koha
21:02 * pianohacker is Pianohacker
21:02 nengard sekjal i have a login on wikipedia
21:02 LBA it would help me to talk with current LL customers.  they are the ones who I don't want to alienate.
21:03 jransom I really hope LL customers can make a difference here - it would the very best result if we don;t have to rename.
21:03 pianohacker LBA: Just out of curiosity, what is your affiliation?
21:03 pianohacker jransom: would also set an excellent precedent going forward
21:03 LBA independent lib tech consultant galecia group
21:03 jransom yep.
21:03 pianohacker sekjal: do any pages pop to mind?
21:03 pie ok, KohaCon looks better now ->
21:03 jransom and would heal the breach in the koha community between LL and non-LL libraries
21:03 nengard jransom - the problem that i see is that too many librarians are passive and just go with the flow - it's what they've learned after years of dealing with the old vendors - so happy or not they don't seem to fight much
21:03 pie (very initial prototype though)
21:04 chris yay pie
21:04 nengard of course that's not all lbirarians - a few here are big fighters - myself included
21:04 pie :)
21:04 chris bywater solutions gets the first sponsorship slot
21:04 chris bywater_solutions++
21:04 wizzyrea oh hey that looks nice
21:05 wizzyrea i'm sad that there *is* a breach between ll and non ll customers
21:05 wizzyrea :(
21:05 wizzyrea that's certainly not what we had in mind when we signed up
21:05 chris yeah, lets close that
21:05 pianohacker wizzyrea: some ll customers
21:05 SelfishMan nengard: very true. they usually don't have the resources to investigate for themselves so they ask the neighbors and parent orgs
21:05 sekjal does not reflect the currently released version, and the history could stand to be flushed out further
21:05 LBA my take is that many current LL customers are not getting what they signed up for - an ILS without vendor lock-in
21:06 chris yep it needs to be edited
21:06 nengard sekjal i'll fix it
21:06 wizzyrea lba that would be accurate in many cases
21:06 thd jransom: Beyond avoiding renaming it would help if kados would appreciate that he has much more to gain by helping the community and that he looses nothing of value in helping.
21:06 pianohacker wizzyrea: Those that involve themselves in the community are actively working to shorten the gap
21:06 jransom pie: cool
21:06 chris LBA: its certainly what im hearing too
21:06 Genji LBA: and the website of LL's 'no vendor lock-in' .... something like false advertising.
21:06 pie jransom: yeah, Chris was wanting something up so we'll be putting things in there from the wiki
21:07 LBA if people would talk to me, I'd be happy to do my best at posting sentiments and urging a closing of the breach - while protecting anonymity
21:07 sekjal thanks, nengard
21:07 nengard sekjal - someone beat me to it ...
21:07 pianohacker pie: hey, what do you have running on appspot to create that site? Looks very nice
21:07 pie at the moment, it's just static but hopefully soon it'll be logginable and changeable
21:07 jransom thd: absolutely agree. George and I have spent hours talking our way through trying to find a way to bring Joshua back in from he cold.
21:07 pie pianohacker: just a small bit of Python ... I'll get you the repo
21:07 pianohacker pie: ah, cool
21:07 pie
21:07 pie it's all there for the moment
21:07 davi OpenKoha is not a good name IMHO
21:07 owen jransom: It makes me very sad to hear that he questioned your position as negotiator
21:08 wizzyrea freekoha makes me think of three things: 1. FreeCell 2. SkiFree and 3. Free Willy
21:08 imp .oO(freeware *puke* ;)
21:09 thd jransom: It is not a business exclusion but a personality conflict which seems to be the difficult obstacle from my conversations with him at ALA.
21:09 davi Free could be better, but we should manage to find a better name than OpenKoha
21:09 pianohacker davi: We have tabled that discussion at least formally, but I'm curious why not?
21:09 SelfishMan yeah, openkoha would be a bad move. either keep the current or completely change it
21:09 owen Let the informal discussion happen as it may
21:09 davi Open does not meant freedom. See our current problems
21:10 chris davi++
21:10 thd imp: free software killed freeware / shareware in the market.
21:10 jransom its a nice contrast to koha (as in open vs closed) lol
21:10 pianohacker davi: free as in libre is an excellent ideal but will likely have different connotations than open
21:10 davi SelfishMan++
21:10 chris its not closed, its just not free
21:10 pianohacker Explaining the meaning of koha is always a nice bit piece at conferences, but people already have hangups on free/open
21:11 jransom I know - but the english grad in me thinks closed when i see open
21:11 sekjal the part of me that really hates losing thinks we should fight for the name we have.  the more practical side thinks that it might not be the best tactic
21:11 chris have you read brenda chawners piece?
21:11 davi pianohacker, Bad connotations or good ones?
21:11 IrmaCalyx What about: GlobalKoha?
21:11 wizzyrea sekjal: I'm with you
21:11 wizzyrea ooh
21:11 imp thd: yes, but i dont like it if people confuse both things, nearly every time if we talk about licensing stuff at the lib where i deployed koha, i have to explain the difference :/
21:11 wizzyrea GlobalKoha
21:11 chris what about Icantbelivesomeamericancorpo​rationhashijackedamaoriword
21:11 jransom also, it is not completely outside the bounds of possibility that will come back to the community in the fullness of time
21:12 SelfishMan NotUrmomsILS
21:12 pianohacker chris: are there any good derived terms from Koha?
21:12 chris .org
21:12 jransom we can slip back to koha very easily from openkoha
21:12 davi I would agree the best option is follow using just "Koha"
21:12 pianohacker chris: ICANN would probably approve it :P
21:12 IrmaCalyx chris: that's a good one! A bit long?
21:12 CGI090 left #koha
21:12 davi pianohacker, Is there a wiki page or similar when we can add possible names to use if we can not use Koha at the end?
21:13 jransom chris: yeah thats brilliant. definitely make it one of the options.
21:13 sekjal  it works!
21:13 pianohacker davi: better to keep it informal for now, I would think :)
21:13 chris
21:13 chris i encourage you all to read this
21:13 rhcl koala?
21:13 davi pianohacker, ack
21:13 thd imp: people will not understand open properly either.  I also like KohaLibre which avoids the ambiguity over free.
21:13 jwagner left #koha
21:13 Ngai :-)
21:13 davi I am reading, thanks chris
21:13 pianohacker davi: Just keep it in mind for after dec 24th when we find out the results of vickiteal's pressure
21:14 wizzyrea which I think of "nacho libre" but my free associations should not hinder the naming process lol
21:14 wizzyrea (a movie I haven't even seen)
21:14 owen I have problems with the term "Libre" as well from the point of view of American ears
21:15 ftherese libre sounds good to me
21:15 ftherese are you guys done with your meeting yet?
21:15 davi ack, pianohacker
21:15 chris ftherese: ages ago :)
21:15 wizzyrea yep
21:15 thd owen: yes I do not propose it actually because it is not English enough.
21:15 pianohacker in acknowledged?
21:15 chris thd: and koha is?
21:15 ftherese what can be done to speed up koha's response time?
21:15 pianohacker regardless of english; a maori/french combo is a bit jarring
21:16 ftherese just in general
21:16 imp pianohacker: true
21:16 chris ftherese: put expires headers on all the static files
21:16 thd chris: Koha is  at least known
21:16 pianohacker what he said
21:16 jransom left #koha
21:16 Genji ack, just realised, httrack is a bad mirroring program. It doesn't save the url as doku.php?etc... but as doku<some serial number>.html
21:16 SelfishMan genji: yep
21:16 chris ftherese: give mysql as much ram as possible
21:16 thd chris: We do not want to loose the known and recognised word.
21:16 imp what's the maori word for leafs?
21:17 chris leaves?
21:17 Genji SelfishMan:not what you wanted eh?
21:17 pianohacker ftherese: also, if you're running a recent version of koha, bug them about memcached
21:17 SelfishMan but the content is at least there
21:17 pianohacker imp: from the logo?
21:17 imp chris: jupp
21:17 ftherese bug bug bug
21:17 ftherese who do I bug?
21:17 SelfishMan genji: i knew that going in but not a lot of other options
21:17 ftherese and chris: how do I do what you suggested?
21:17 pianohacker ftherese: Whoever admins your Koha install. Note that by recent I mean git
21:17 imp pianohacker: from the logo? thought it's a wave?
21:17 tajoli joined #koha
21:18 Genji SelfishMan:you using httrack too?
21:18 SelfishMan yep
21:18 Genji Ah. .... so im getting the exact amount of files you are going to get.
21:18 pianohacker imp: no idea. Where do the leaves come from?
21:18 Genji currently: 105 mbs, 2623 files written.
21:18 chris imp: whārangi
21:19 * pie is up to Bug 2725
21:19 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2725 normal, P3, ---,, NEW, uppercasesurnames preference not working
21:19 pie lol
21:19 pianohacker bleh, macron
21:19 pianohacker chris: are there any short/memorable/pleasing sounding maori versions of any of the words we've discussed?
21:19 chris you could use rau
21:19 chris for leaf also
21:20 chris kohamatatou, 3 words koha ma tatou .. ma tatou means = for/of/by us all
21:20 imp pianohacker: pages from books -> leaves ;)
21:20 SelfishMan i think 'rau' is illegal in montana
21:20 pianohacker ftherese: a google search for "apache expires" turns up docs and tutorials
21:20 pianohacker ftherese: regardless, it'll be editing your koha-httpd.conf in some fashion
21:20 pianohacker SelfishMan: bahaha, dare I ask why?
21:21 Ngai left #koha
21:21 ftherese pianohacker: ok thank you
21:21 SelfishMan is the latest mod_perl happy?
21:21 pianohacker kohamatatou sounds kind of interesting
21:21 pianohacker SelfishMan: still not officially supported
21:21 imp "rau" is the german word for an uneven surface ;)
21:22 rhcl I eat rau vegetables sometimes, but they ususally taste better cooked.
21:22 owen 'til tomorrow, folks.
21:22 imp cya owen
21:22 thd chris: how does rau relate?
21:22 owen left #koha
21:22 pianohacker You can try, but you are guaranteed to run into problems which the only support we can offer for is "turn off mod_perl, it is eeeevil"
21:22 chris dunno
21:22 chris imp asked for the maori word for leaf
21:22 IrmaCalyx cheerio all - off for some breakfast ...
21:22 chris i gave him 2 ;)
21:22 pianohacker bye, IrmaCalyx
21:22 chris plurals in maori dont change the word
21:22 chris te rau = the leaf
21:23 chris nga rau = the leaves
21:23 LBA leaves...tree....evergreen
21:23 SelfishMan pianohacker: tried mod_perl long ago but wasn't sure if changes were made recently
21:23 chris whārangi is a better word for leaf tho
21:23 thd chris: I thought that you had been offering a word for openness and/or freedom
21:23 chris nope
21:23 imp (offtopic) what's the name for the double-helix?
21:23 chris koha is the word for openness and/or freedom
21:23 SelfishMan no diacritics in the new name please
21:23 pianohacker imp: as in dna or the shape?
21:24 pianohacker kohakoha?
21:24 chris could use humarie, or rangimarie which both mean peace
21:25 imp pianohacker: the maori symbol one
21:25 chris koru
21:25 chris like in the koha logo?
21:25 * Genji laughs. "Koha was the word that Rach used to describe the almost free status of the ILS.... and the open status. So saying OpenKoha, or FreeKoha is pretty much repeating itself"
21:25 pianohacker sharing? If you object being used as a human english-maori dictionary, feel free to say so :)
21:25 chris manakitangi
21:25 chris manakitanga even
21:26 thd nengard: are you still here?
21:26 chris or whakawhiriwhiri
21:26 nengard uh huh
21:26 wizzyrea well whakawhiriwhiri seems appealing
21:26 chris imp: a koru is used to symbolise new growth/life
21:26 LBA koru++
21:27 Genji Korukoha?
21:27 chris its why its part of the logo
21:27 rhcl what about neke?
21:27 IrmaCalyx left #koha
21:27 LBA what about something that means the original one or source or foundation ...
21:27 SelfishMan koru isn't bad as long as there is an audio file with the correct pronunciation on the site
21:27 thd nengard: for the links to a new name to have some weight you might consider changing all your old blog posts to a new domain and encourage others to do the same.
21:27 chris in what context rhcl ?
21:28 nengard thd - oh i will - as soon as the site is moved - if it's moved
21:28 ftherese how do I give more ram to mysql?
21:28 Genji from Rach, the origin of Koha, and its still on LL's website. "Koha isn't a company - it's very important that you understand this. Koha is a project and a product, but many companies are involved in producing Koha. "
21:28 chris /etc/mysql/my.conf
21:29 chris koru is well overused
21:29 Genji[…]-June/011814.html
21:29 chris in nz
21:30 SelfishMan koru would sell well over here
21:30 thd nengard: are their scripts which could do that globally for popular blogging software without site administration access?
21:30 nengard doubt it
21:30 chris lets give vicki a chance first
21:30 chris then we can thrash out names
21:31 thd vicki+++
21:31 collum left #koha
21:31 LBA yes, chris, and think positively
21:31 chris LBA: its hard, this crap has been going for over a year now
21:31 chris but im trying to
21:32 LBA I think it needs to be made more clear to the outside world what LL is doing.
21:32 chris i was hoping librarians would do so
21:32 LBA now that more are turning on to the os idea, I think it is a good time
21:32 chris as developers and support companies
21:32 chris its hard for us to say anything
21:32 chris because we get we are attacking the competition leveled at us
21:33 wizzyrea and customers have fear of retribution
21:33 LBA yes, not your job.  and yes, it's risky for customers.  that's why people like me have to help get it out.
21:33 brendan LBA++
21:34 Nate left #koha
21:34 Genji how easy is it to export a LEK db to a Koha db?
21:34 chris hard
21:34 heupink left #koha
21:34 chris because no one has ever seen a LEK db
21:34 chris thats the whole point
21:34 chris not even LEK uses get to see it
21:35 Genji What of marc mass-exporting?
21:35 chris plus they have renamed columns
21:35 chris you are asking the wrong people
21:35 chris you need to ask LL
21:35 * Genji nods. Laughs. "Okay, so people on LEK are effectively trapped.
21:36 sekjal I will push KUDOS to act as an educator in the library world, helping to foster the profession's understanding of the project and how to get involved
21:36 chris thats kinda the point isnt it?
21:36 wizzyrea sekjal++
21:36 Ropuch Genji: feel the irony of "no vendor lock-in" on LEK advertiding ;>
21:36 chris sekjal++
21:36 thd chris: Do you propose to fix spelling errors as part of 3.4 refactoring?
21:36 chris yes
21:36 Ropuch s/advertiding/advertising
21:36 chris get rid of all those z's
21:36 chris and put some u's back in
21:36 * Genji nods. "Someone needs to write a LEK spider to marc export script?
21:36 wizzyrea lol rangi
21:37 chris but seriously, yes in script and variable names
21:37 thd chris: I meant most importantly the ones which are wrong in every English dialect
21:37 chris yes
21:38 chris ill be expecting patches from you doing just that ;-)
21:38 thd They are very easy to trip over when writing code
21:38 pianohacker bbl
21:38 ftherese left #koha
21:39 thd chris: I have submitted them but I lost the argument about fixing spelling errors in the past as dangerous refactoring
21:39 thd chris: My patches were considered bugs
21:40 sekjal I'm all for considering a moderate-large refactoring for Koha 4.0
21:40 magnusenger good night (or other time of the day) everyone!
21:40 sekjal I've got large, impractical ideas that will take too much time
21:40 chris yeah well you will win with 3.4, cos thats the point of it
21:41 chris course if your patches introduce bugs, they will be assigned to you :)
21:41 thd yaaah
21:42 magnusenger left #koha
21:42 LBA can I suggest that any LL customers who want to talk to me about their situation, please email me at I'll pop out and let you carry on about bugs  :0
21:42 thd To be fair my patches were an incomplete fix and therefore they were bugs but I was not allowed to continue and fix spelling errors as bugs themselves
21:43 vickiteal joined #koha
21:46 Ropuch Guess it's hight time for to get familiar with git
21:46 chris LBA: might be nest to email that to the list
21:47 chris because apart from vickiteal and wizzyrea there arent any other LL customers here
21:47 chris afaik
21:49 wizzyrea not at the moment :(
21:49 brendan ah time for some lunch
21:49 brendan bbiab
21:54 ftherese joined #koha
21:57 LBA okay, thanks Chris, will do.
21:59 vickiteal Meetings done, right?
22:00 vickiteal I got disconnected from the chat, so missed rest of meeting. :(  I will wait for text to be posted.  Bye.
22:00 LBA Bye and thanks.
22:00 LBA left #koha
22:01 jransom joined #koha
22:01 cm left #koha
22:02 vickiteal left #koha
22:03 Genji ... obviously, some people don't know about the real time log.
22:04 tajoli left #koha
22:04 ftherese chris: I am getting an Invalid command 'Header' error message when trying to use expires thing for apache... is there a quick solution?
22:05 chris you probably dont have the module enables
22:05 chris enabled even
22:05 ftherese I am going to try this LoadModule headers_module modules/
22:06 ftherese is it there? or do I have to install it separately for ubuntu standard install?  if you don't know I'll just keep poking around
22:07 Genji SelfishMan: 2 hours and 8 minutes.. still going.
22:07 nicomo left #koha
22:07 sekjal time to head out.  great meeting and followup discussions, all.
22:08 sekjal left #koha
22:11 ftherese hmmm... I don't know which libapache2-mod to add
22:11 ftherese there isn't one explicitly for headers
22:11 ftherese is it contained within something else?
22:12 ftherese sudo a2enmod headers
22:12 ftherese found it I think
22:12 chris that looks likely
22:16 Genji 2 hr 17mins, 196 MB and growing.
22:18 imp Genji: do they have a small uplink?
22:18 Genji Hmm? oh.. im on new zealand ADSL.
22:21 pie can't connect to anymore
22:21 pie it's timing out
22:21 chris same for overseas? can someone in the us confirm?
22:21 imp it's working here
22:21 brendan I am able to connect
22:21 imp but a little bit slow ;)
22:21 pie hmm
22:21 pie thanks
22:21 chris maybe just our ip blocked
22:21 chris i cant from my work computer
22:22 pie up to bug 3392/3855
22:22 munin Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3392 minor, PATCH-Sent, ---,, RESOLVED FIXED, Patrons with no checkout report table not highlighting
22:22 pie lol (again)
22:22 chris can from home
22:22 Genji mass-downloading could be interpreted as an attack by an automated system.
22:22 chris so yeah blocked from work
22:22 imp Genji: right
22:22 imp that's the reason why i'm unsure about mirroring it or not
22:23 chris well we dont want to lose all the content
22:24 Genji could get done for attacking a website.
22:24 pie no-one is attacking it
22:24 * Genji nods..
22:25 wizzyrea I can get into it
22:25 imp yeah, if i want, i can use a machine with a gbit uplink... i'm pretty sure it'll leave any ids screaming DOS...
22:25 imp (but i'm not sure who much traffic can be pushed down to .nz
22:26 Genji ill dl it all with httrack, then ill use a specific dokuwiki again, to see if i can get the correct doku url format, raw pages. Just using httrack now to get the content off there, just in case.
22:27 nengard left #koha
22:36 bebbi left #koha
22:44 ftherese I tried doing the expires thing for the headers, but koha is still very slow to respond
22:55 Genji what is evil about mod_perl + koha btw?
22:55 rhcl <- works for me - apparent normal speed
23:05 cait time to sleep - bye all :)
23:06 cait left #koha
23:13 SelfishMan Genji: I'm still running, 3600 objects fetched.  Might be time to find a better way to pull it
23:14 Genji SelfishMan: 5000 for me. Like said, im getting it down, then im going to try again with a script i found.
23:16 Genji something from
23:18 SelfishMan ganyeah, I'm trying a totally different way
23:18 dpavlin left #koha
23:19 Genji SelfishMan: what you trying?
23:19 SelfishMan wget -m -e robots=off
23:19 Genji -m -e?
23:19 SelfishMan -m is mirror
23:20 SelfishMan and -e sets a flag
23:20 SelfishMan gives me filenames like "doku.php?id=ubuntu_9.04_based_opac_kiosk"
23:20 Genji its a real pity that doku doesn't have any exporter built in.
23:20 SelfishMan I know
23:20 Genji Ah, very nice.
23:21 SelfishMan much faster
23:21 Ropuch Ok, goodnight all
23:21 chris_n2 g'night Ropuch
23:27 imp do you want every open bug, or all bugs?
23:29 Topic for #koha is now  Discussion channel for the Koha ILS | Next general irc meeting is scheduled at 19:00 UTC+0 on 13 January 2010
23:30 chris_n2 imp: all bugs I'd suspect
23:31 imp k
23:31 chris_n2 we'd hate to lose the history
23:32 imp will fetch the 1 - 4000 right now, creating a list of "no go links" later and then pull the attachements
23:33 Genji I assume your using xm.cgi?
23:33 Genji xml.cgi?
23:34 imp ohh
23:34 imp good idea
23:34 imp used show_bug.cgi..
23:35 imp (without ctype=xml)
23:35 Genji write a script... for 'ing through and wgetting.. or LWPing.
23:36 imp just a simple for loop with `seq 1 4000`
23:36 imp (and -O $i ;)
23:36 Genji ah sure.
23:37 * imp likes the bash
23:37 Genji what version of bugzilla is it?
23:37 Genji[…])-to10722199.html
23:38 imp version
23:38 Genji that url will give you the ability to export without scripting.
23:42 imp you mean by adding multiple &id=.. fields?
23:45 Genji[…]y_format=advanced
23:45 Genji then just click search, then XML
23:45 Genji way at the bottom of the list
23:46 Genji got it?
23:48 imp clicked xml - waiting now :D
23:49 Genji woops.
23:49 Genji forgot to mention, select all statuses
23:49 Genji click stop, start over.
23:50 imp there are crossed out ones listed (wontfix, fixed, worksforme)
23:50 Genji yes, chris_n2 wants all of the entire db.
23:52 Genji my search says 3849 bugs entirely.
23:52 imp bla, malformed xml bla line Nr. 23149, row 265: ....
23:52 imp think i'll just continue using wget
23:53 imp every bug on it's own
23:53 imp one per file
23:53 imp thats ok i think
23:53 Genji how about.... wget the url that xml was trying to get.
23:53 Genji copy and paste the url from the address bar.
23:53 Genji all the id #'s are in it.
23:54 imp Genji: i'm already fetching the bugs in xml format
23:54 Genji k
23:54 imp (at least, since you mentioned it :)
23:55 imp nearly 0.5k/3,8k
23:55 imp so it won't take that long
23:55 imp (with a friendly 1s sleep between each one)

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