| Time |
S |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:04 |
|
|
Jo joined #koha |
| 00:12 |
|
gmcharlt |
Obama's going to be in Philadelphia tomorrow - I wonder if he'll say anything about the situation |
| 00:13 |
|
chris |
i hope so, it seems like a particularly stupid decision |
| 00:14 |
|
gmcharlt |
dunno - many library directors I'm sure have felt tempted to close up shop entirely (or close branches, at any rate) when faced with funding cuts, rather than spread the pain around by cutting hours at all branches |
| 00:14 |
|
gmcharlt |
either this gambit is going to work spectacularly well |
| 00:14 |
|
chris |
oh i meant the funding cuts :) |
| 00:14 |
|
gmcharlt |
or fall completely flat |
| 00:15 |
|
gmcharlt |
right |
| 00:15 |
|
chris |
yeah i hope its the former |
| 00:15 |
|
chris |
it certainly has gotten a lot of press |
| 00:15 |
|
chris |
and thats most likely a good thing |
| 00:25 |
|
Jo |
hi guys |
| 00:25 |
|
Jo |
and gals :) |
| 00:25 |
|
chris |
heya Jo |
| 00:30 |
|
gmcharlt |
hi Jo |
| 00:41 |
|
gmcharlt |
chris: is t/db_dependent/VirtualShelves.t supposed to pass cleanly after your two patches, or do you have more to do? |
| 00:49 |
|
gmcharlt |
in particular, re line 153 of the test case, since when does GetShelfContents return two results? |
| 00:50 |
|
richard |
gmcharlt: i think he's getting his lunch |
| 00:50 |
|
gmcharlt |
richard: ok |
| 00:52 |
|
|
pianohacker left #koha |
| 00:53 |
|
|
pianohacker joined #koha |
| 00:59 |
|
gmcharlt |
@later tell chris OK, I'm skipping over those two patches for now; also, I suggest switching it to use Test::More to be consistent with all of the other test cases |
| 00:59 |
|
munin` |
gmcharlt: The operation succeeded. |
| 01:21 |
|
|
pianohacker left #koha |
| 01:21 |
|
|
pianohacker joined #koha |
| 01:21 |
|
|
pianohacker left #koha |
| 01:24 |
|
gmcharlt |
@later tell pianohacker the three latest sysprefs patches (one from you and two from Owen) conflict - could you resolve the conflict and give me a clean branch to pull from? thanks |
| 01:24 |
|
munin` |
gmcharlt: The operation succeeded. |
| 01:34 |
|
chris |
gmcharlt: more to do |
| 02:07 |
|
|
schuster joined #koha |
| 02:07 |
|
chris |
hi schuster |
| 02:07 |
|
schuster |
Hey - everyones asleep in the house so I can see about getting some things done! |
| 02:09 |
|
chris |
heh nice :) |
| 02:09 |
|
chris |
i know the feeling |
| 02:15 |
|
schuster |
OK so in going through some of the bugs for example 641 - dealing with renewal over ride limits - this is documented so I can Email Owen the originator and ask him to close it? |
| 02:16 |
|
chris |
sure can |
| 02:40 |
|
brendan |
ok night #koha |
| 02:40 |
|
* brendan |
so tired :) |
| 02:42 |
|
chris |
night brendan |
| 02:53 |
|
schuster |
Does anyone know the status of 3.2 development inclusion? Galen was building a list, but I've been in and out and don't know if it is completed yet for me to review. |
| 02:53 |
|
gmcharlt |
schuster: it's still in flux |
| 03:10 |
|
schuster |
OK I've been doing my "other" job around the office so havn't been keeping up directly with IRC. thanks |
| 03:13 |
|
chris |
@later tell hdl_laptop i have updated all the opac .po files in pootle and in my repo, please pull from my repo |
| 03:13 |
|
munin` |
chris: The operation succeeded. |
| 03:15 |
|
|
Amit joined #koha |
| 03:15 |
|
Amit |
hi chris, brendan |
| 03:15 |
|
Amit |
good morning #koha |
| 03:15 |
|
chris |
hi Amit |
| 03:16 |
|
Amit |
chris: can i ask one question |
| 03:16 |
|
chris |
yep? |
| 03:16 |
|
phasefx_ |
what is the meaning of life the universe and everything? :) |
| 03:16 |
|
Amit |
which cricket player receive the max no. man of the match |
| 03:17 |
|
chris |
tendulkar |
| 03:18 |
|
Amit |
yes ur right 59 times |
| 03:18 |
|
Amit |
and also max no man of the series also 14 times |
| 03:18 |
|
* richard |
detects a sachin fan :) |
| 03:19 |
|
Amit |
hi richard |
| 03:19 |
|
richard |
hi Amit |
| 03:20 |
|
Amit |
chris: Delhi public library librarian giving the lecture on exp with koha in Delhi seminar which comes on 22-24 oct |
| 03:20 |
|
chris |
excellent |
| 03:21 |
|
chris |
do you think it will be videod? |
| 03:22 |
|
Amit |
not |
| 03:23 |
|
Amit |
but i can shoot video or snap ? |
| 03:27 |
|
chris |
itd be nice to be able see it, or just read notes on it :) |
| 03:27 |
|
Amit |
ok i will do it |
| 03:31 |
|
chris |
thanks |
| 03:32 |
|
schuster |
Goes to join the rest of the family in sleepy land... night all |
| 03:32 |
|
chris |
night |
| 03:32 |
|
|
schuster left #koha |
| 04:24 |
|
|
greenmang0 joined #koha |
| 06:10 |
|
|
hdl_laptop joined #koha |
| 06:14 |
|
|
Jo left #koha |
| 06:17 |
|
|
magnusenger joined #koha |
| 06:19 |
|
|
kf joined #koha |
| 06:19 |
|
kf |
good morning |
| 06:20 |
|
magnusenger |
good morning |
| 06:22 |
|
hdl_laptop |
hi |
| 06:24 |
|
hdl_laptop |
chris : koha-maintenance updated |
| 06:34 |
|
|
hdl_laptop left #koha |
| 06:48 |
|
|
nahuel joined #koha |
| 06:50 |
|
|
anasha joined #koha |
| 06:51 |
|
|
paul_p2 joined #koha |
| 06:52 |
|
|
fredericd joined #koha |
| 06:52 |
|
fredericd |
morning |
| 07:00 |
|
nahuel |
hi ! |
| 07:04 |
|
|
laurence joined #koha |
| 07:06 |
|
chris |
hi fredericd and nahuel |
| 07:06 |
|
nahuel |
hi chris |
| 07:10 |
|
chris |
hows the code run going, drinking lots of coffee? :) |
| 07:19 |
|
|
hdl_laptop joined #koha |
| 07:22 |
|
Amit |
hi nahuel, frdericd |
| 07:22 |
|
chris |
hdl_laptop: just push the last of the staff .po files |
| 07:22 |
|
chris |
just pushed even |
| 07:24 |
|
nahuel |
chris, not yesterday, but today I think we will ! |
| 07:26 |
|
chris |
:) |
| 07:41 |
|
Ropuch |
Morning |
| 07:42 |
|
chris |
hi Ropuch |
| 07:42 |
|
|
nicomo_laptop joined #koha |
| 07:43 |
|
Ropuch |
We've just moved 6k books from ground to 2nd floor |
| 07:44 |
|
chris |
wow |
| 07:49 |
|
Ropuch |
and the fun begins now |
| 07:49 |
|
|
Kivutar joined #koha |
| 07:57 |
|
|
ianB joined #koha |
| 08:00 |
|
hdl_laptop |
chris pushed |
| 08:01 |
|
chris |
cool, i noticed a problem with italian .. so probably will get you to do another one later but we are getting there :) |
| 08:02 |
|
chris |
hi ianB |
| 08:04 |
|
ianB |
Hi Chris |
| 08:05 |
|
ianB |
First time on IRC so keen to not mess up... |
| 08:06 |
|
chris |
hehe we are pretty forgiving :-) |
| 08:06 |
|
chris |
whereabouts are you from? |
| 08:06 |
|
* chris |
is in nz |
| 08:08 |
|
ianB |
phew! I'm in the UK. I'm with the same crowd as Colin Campbell, Jonathan Field & Nick Dimant at PTFS Europe near London. |
| 08:09 |
|
ianB |
I have family in Hamilton and Christchurch NZ. Only been there once, but it was wonderful. |
| 08:11 |
|
chris |
ahh cool, i have family in Christchurch, im in Wellington |
| 08:12 |
|
ianB |
I do mainly data conversion and migration projects here rather than development as such. Did the motor-home tour of NZ but did not stop long in Wellington (caught the 6am ferry to South Island). |
| 08:12 |
|
chris |
ahh cool, conversions are hard work |
| 08:13 |
|
ianB |
Need to pop out for a bit. Back later. "normal" conversions are good fun. acquisitions & serials can scramble the brain... |
| 08:13 |
|
chris |
:) |
| 08:14 |
|
Ropuch |
:) |
| 08:39 |
|
|
richard left #koha |
| 08:44 |
|
|
Colin joined #koha |
| 08:58 |
|
kf |
chris: I see new translation work in 3.0.x |
| 09:00 |
|
chris |
yep, i updated the .po files today, getting ready for 3.0.4 |
| 09:00 |
|
chris |
shouldnt be too many changes |
| 09:00 |
|
kf |
(243 untranslated, 166 fuzzy) |
| 09:01 |
|
chris |
for staff? |
| 09:01 |
|
kf |
yes |
| 09:01 |
|
kf |
opac was easy |
| 09:01 |
|
chris |
cool |
| 09:02 |
|
kf |
update to about page is most of them |
| 09:03 |
|
chris |
ahh right |
| 09:07 |
|
Amit |
hi kf |
| 09:07 |
|
chris |
kf: http://git.workbuffer.org/cgi-[…]oha.git;a=summary |
| 09:08 |
|
kf |
hi Amit |
| 09:08 |
|
|
snail joined #koha |
| 09:09 |
|
kf |
:D |
| 09:09 |
|
snail |
am i right in thinking it's approximately 10 hours to the koha meeting? |
| 09:10 |
|
chris |
yep bout that |
| 09:10 |
|
chris |
7am our time snail |
| 09:10 |
|
snail |
cool. I'm hoping to make it for at least part of the meeting |
| 09:10 |
|
chris |
cool |
| 09:12 |
|
kf |
will be there too - but had no time to read the materials :( |
| 09:36 |
|
snail |
my thoughts on the issue: http://opensourceexile.blogspo[…]ghts-on-koha.html |
| 09:37 |
|
chris |
reading now |
| 09:39 |
|
chris |
my current favourite is HLT, which is already a registered trust, and of course has a long history with Koha |
| 09:41 |
|
kf |
I like that idea too, but not sure what changes this would mean |
| 09:41 |
|
chris |
@later tell thd-away thanks for tidying up the public git repository page |
| 09:41 |
|
munin` |
chris: The operation succeeded. |
| 09:42 |
|
chris |
rosalie will be able to speak to that better than I, so ill leave that to her tomorrow |
| 09:42 |
|
snail |
chris: i agree, but you and i are local cheerleaders |
| 09:48 |
|
chris |
:) |
| 09:50 |
|
|
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| 09:50 |
|
|
nicomo_laptop left #koha |
| 09:55 |
|
|
snail left #koha |
| 09:55 |
|
|
snail joined #koha |
| 10:27 |
|
|
|Lupin| joined #koha |
| 10:29 |
|
|Lupin| |
hi there |
| 10:34 |
|
kf |
hi lupin |
| 10:35 |
|
Ropuch |
Hello |
| 10:36 |
|
kf |
chris: translation done ;) |
| 10:40 |
|
|Lupin| |
guten morgen kf |
| 10:40 |
|
kf |
guten morgen |Lupin| |
| 10:40 |
|
|Lupin| |
I'm just trying to install zebra on a debian unstable |
| 10:41 |
|
|Lupin| |
pparently there is a dependency problem: one of the packages depend on libicu36 which is not installable... does somebody know something about this, pls ? |
| 10:49 |
|
|
nicomo_laptop1 left #koha |
| 10:49 |
|
|Lupin| |
ah fixed it... had to add etch to the sources.list |
| 11:15 |
|
|
CGI386 joined #koha |
| 11:16 |
|
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CGI386 left #koha |
| 11:41 |
|
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jdavidb joined #koha |
| 11:42 |
|
jdavidb |
@seen jwagner |
| 11:42 |
|
munin` |
jdavidb: jwagner was last seen in #koha 16 hours, 52 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <jwagner> I'm lost already :-( |
| 11:43 |
|
|
collum joined #koha |
| 11:44 |
|
collum |
Good morning all |
| 11:44 |
|
jdavidb |
g'morning, collum. :) |
| 11:49 |
|
gmcharlt |
good morning |
| 11:49 |
|
chris_n |
gmcharlt: g'morning |
| 11:50 |
|
chris_n |
gmcharlt: splitting tests seem to run fine here |
| 11:50 |
|
gmcharlt |
how are you running them, and with what version of Perl? |
| 11:50 |
|
chris_n |
http://pastebin.com/m47adcee5 |
| 11:51 |
|
chris_n |
5.10.0 |
| 11:51 |
|
* chris_n |
does not know 'prove' |
| 11:52 |
|
chris_n |
I'll try that |
| 11:52 |
|
chris_n |
cnighswonger cnighswonger-lt:~/koha.3.2.labels/t$ prove Labels_split_ddcn.t |
| 11:52 |
|
chris_n |
Labels_split_ddcn....ok |
| 11:52 |
|
chris_n |
All tests successful. |
| 11:52 |
|
chris_n |
Files=1, Tests=34, 2 wallclock secs ( 0.65 cusr + 0.03 csys = 0.68 CPU) |
| 11:52 |
|
chris_n |
perhaps the patch did not apply cleanly? |
| 11:54 |
|
gmcharlt |
chris_n: what do you get when you run |
| 11:54 |
|
gmcharlt |
perl -MC4::Labels::Label -e 'exit;' |
| 11:54 |
|
chris_n |
cnighswongercnighswonger-lt:~/koha.3.2.labels/t$ perl -MC4::Labels::Label -e 'exit;' |
| 11:54 |
|
chris_n |
cnighswongercnighswonger-lt:~/koha.3.2.labels/t$ |
| 11:55 |
|
gmcharlt |
and of |
| 11:55 |
|
gmcharlt |
md5sum Labels_split_ddcn.t |
| 11:55 |
|
gmcharlt |
? |
| 11:55 |
|
chris_n |
cnighswongercnighswonger-lt:~/koha.3.2.labels/t$ md5sum Labels_split_ddcn.t |
| 11:55 |
|
chris_n |
7f525252ad2f3e104190804bf376a796 Labels_split_ddcn.t |
| 11:55 |
|
chris_n |
cnighswongercnighswonger-lt:~/koha.3.2.labels/t$ |
| 11:56 |
|
gmcharlt |
and when you run prove -v t/Labels_split_ddcn.t ? |
| 11:57 |
|
chris_n |
http://pastebin.com/m285e95a9 |
| 11:58 |
|
chris_n |
Monday weirdness on Tuesday perhaps :-) |
| 11:59 |
|
gmcharlt |
chris_n: indeed - http://koha.pastebin.com/d70c54cd9 |
| 12:00 |
|
gmcharlt |
difference is that for me it is counting the use_ok('C4::Labels::Label'') as the first test |
| 12:00 |
|
|
jwagner joined #koha |
| 12:00 |
|
gmcharlt |
what do you get from |
| 12:00 |
|
gmcharlt |
prove -V |
| 12:01 |
|
chris_n |
cnighswongercnighswonger-lt:~/koha.3.2.labels$ prove -V |
| 12:01 |
|
chris_n |
prove v2.64, using Test::Harness v2.64 and Perl v5.10.0 |
| 12:01 |
|
chris_n |
cnighswongercnighswonger-lt:~/koha.3.2.labels$ |
| 12:01 |
|
gmcharlt |
and I get |
| 12:01 |
|
gmcharlt |
TAP::Harness v3.17 and Perl v5.10.0 |
| 12:02 |
|
|
nicomo_laptop joined #koha |
| 12:02 |
|
chris_n |
I'll update and rerun |
| 12:04 |
|
chris_n |
gmcharlt: http://koha.pastebin.com/m45aaf14c |
| 12:04 |
|
chris_n |
very weird |
| 12:08 |
|
|
Amit left #koha |
| 12:09 |
|
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dpavlin joined #koha |
| 12:10 |
|
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nicomo_laptop left #koha |
| 12:10 |
|
|
nicomo_laptop1 joined #koha |
| 12:10 |
|
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hdl_laptop left #koha |
| 12:11 |
|
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hdl_laptop joined #koha |
| 12:11 |
|
gmcharlt |
chris_n: what version of Test::More do you have installed? |
| 12:12 |
|
gmcharlt |
I have 0.92 |
| 12:12 |
|
chris_n |
looks like 0.94 |
| 12:14 |
|
chris_n |
gmcharlt: reinstalled Test::More (0.94) and now get the same error you do |
| 12:14 |
|
chris_n |
http://koha.pastebin.com/m7bc2fbde |
| 12:15 |
|
chris_n |
it is a trivial fix |
| 12:15 |
|
chris_n |
I'll resubmit, but it might break on other versions of Test::More etc. |
| 12:15 |
|
gmcharlt |
s'ok - I care more about it break on newer versions of Test::More than on older |
| 12:16 |
|
gmcharlt |
and I'll bump up the minimum required version of Test::More in the install doc |
| 12:16 |
|
chris_n |
k |
| 12:18 |
|
|
owen joined #koha |
| 12:19 |
|
jdavidb |
howdy, Owen! :) |
| 12:19 |
|
owen |
Hi |
| 12:26 |
|
gmcharlt |
hi owen |
| 12:29 |
|
chris_n |
gmcharlt: new patch submitted |
| 12:31 |
|
chris_n |
TAP::Parser still complains about the test plan not being declared at the start of the test, but this is not required by Test::More and probably indicates that TAP::Parser is not aware of this fact |
| 12:36 |
|
|
jwagner left #koha |
| 12:37 |
|
chris_n |
gmcharlt: disregard that; according to Test::Simple doc, the plan *does* have to be declared first |
| 12:38 |
|
|
jwagner joined #koha |
| 12:38 |
|
gmcharlt |
chris_n: right |
| 12:38 |
|
gmcharlt |
since the use_ok is in a BEGIN block |
| 12:38 |
|
gmcharlt |
you could stick the calculcation of the test plan in the BEGIN block as well |
| 12:38 |
|
gmcharlt |
before you run use_ok |
| 12:39 |
|
chris_n |
gmcharlt: the tests run fine w/o the BEGIN block |
| 12:39 |
|
chris_n |
any real reason for it? |
| 12:40 |
|
gmcharlt |
POD for Test::More recommends sticking use_ok inside a BEGIN block |
| 12:40 |
|
gmcharlt |
to ensure that functions are exported at compile-time |
| 12:40 |
|
gmcharlt |
but if test passes w/o it, it is optional |
| 12:41 |
|
chris_n |
I'll push the calcs into the BEGIN block to stay w/the documentation |
| 12:48 |
|
|
greenmang0 left #koha |
| 12:50 |
|
* chris_n |
thinks there's nothing like rebooting a PDC to wake everyone up |
| 12:51 |
|
Ropuch |
Hm, I've closed a basket with wrong value by accident - is there a way to 'reopen' it? |
| 12:54 |
|
owen |
gmcharlt: schuster has been going through old bugs looking for things to close, and he asked me about bug 1532 |
| 12:55 |
|
munin` |
Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/b[…]w_bug.cgi?id=1532 blocker, P3, ---, jmfliblime.com, NEW, Port dev_week holds enhancements to 3.0 |
| 12:55 |
|
owen |
Do you know what the status of Kyle's patch is? Do you remember getting it? |
| 12:55 |
|
|
anasha left #koha |
| 12:55 |
|
gmcharlt |
owen: no, I never got it |
| 12:56 |
|
owen |
I'll email him |
| 12:56 |
|
gmcharlt |
and see no sign of it on the december 2008 koha-patches archive |
| 12:56 |
|
owen |
I guess there's no hurry, they wouldn't make it into 3.2 |
| 12:57 |
|
gmcharlt |
unlikely, I'll update the bug with a question to Kyle |
| 12:57 |
|
|
brendan left #koha |
| 13:04 |
|
|Lupin| |
is there anything to configure to use Zebra, or is it supposed to work quite well out of the box ? |
| 13:04 |
|
|Lupin| |
is there anything to configure to use Zebra, or is it supposed to work quite well out of the box ? |
| 13:04 |
|
|Lupin| |
(sorry if the question was posted twice, we have network problems here seemingly) |
| 13:04 |
|
owen |
gmcharlt: Is there a target date for the string freeze? |
| 13:04 |
|
gmcharlt |
it should work OK out of the box |
| 13:04 |
|
jdavidb |
It normally works just fine, |Lupin|, with the default config. |
| 13:04 |
|
gmcharlt |
owen: not yet, but I don't see it happening before mid-October |
| 13:05 |
|
owen |
Okay, that's good to know. |
| 13:05 |
|
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| 13:05 |
|
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hdl_laptop joined #koha |
| 13:05 |
|
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| 13:05 |
|
paul_p2 |
hi gmcharlt & jdavidb & owen &chris_n and all US ppl (hi |Lupin| too) |
| 13:05 |
|
|
nicomo_laptop joined #koha |
| 13:05 |
|
jdavidb |
Hi, paul! :) |
| 13:05 |
|
gmcharlt |
hi paul_p2 |
| 13:06 |
|
|
paul_p2 is now known as paul_p |
| 13:06 |
|
gmcharlt |
pushed your DB patch to the biblire acq branch |
| 13:06 |
|
gmcharlt |
nice to see you submitting |
| 13:06 |
|
paul_p |
yep, happy to submit too ;-) |
| 13:06 |
|
|Lupin| |
owen gmcharlt: ok, thanks. Actually here it does not work. I get some warnings about indexes that are not found, when reunning rebuild_zebra -b -r. And OPAC searches don't give back any result so I assume there is some problem. |
| 13:07 |
|
* chris_n |
greets paul_p |
| 13:07 |
|
paul_p |
(although, with BibLibre growth, i'm afraid my patches will become more and more uncommon...) |
| 13:08 |
|
|Lupin| |
should zebra have a database distinct from the Koha one ? |
| 13:08 |
|
|Lupin| |
(I'm trying to switch from NoZebra to Zebra mode, btw) |
| 13:09 |
|
owen |
paul_p: it's one of the hazards of running a successful business: less time to code! |
| 13:09 |
|
paul_p |
yep. the fun part is that you do something else and ... code appears "magically" (well, when you pay your employee. Not really magic ;-) ) |
| 13:11 |
|
gmcharlt |
depends on your employees |
| 13:11 |
|
gmcharlt |
if you hire elves, it really is by magic ;) |
| 13:13 |
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| 13:14 |
|
kf |
:) |
| 13:14 |
|
schuster |
I'm reading some of the items in the washk12 git repository - I'm curious how many of them will make it to the 3.2 release... for example - |
| 13:14 |
|
schuster |
Sounds - i think I heard this is coming |
| 13:14 |
|
gmcharlt |
sounds yes |
| 13:15 |
|
* chris_n |
starts looking for elves |
| 13:15 |
|
gmcharlt |
and I've been working on cherry-picking some of the others |
| 13:15 |
|
brendan |
morning |
| 13:15 |
|
chris_n |
hi brendan |
| 13:15 |
|
brendan |
hey chris_n |
| 13:15 |
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| 13:15 |
|
schuster |
How about this one? New tool: Add Copies To Record |
| 13:16 |
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|Lupin| |
anyone to help with Zebra ? |
| 13:17 |
|
schuster |
This one is good too - Ed on the list commented about it - Add page in circ just for renewing |
| 13:18 |
|
schuster |
They had this one as well - never could understand how fines - showed, but overdues didn't - New custom report: Overdues and Fines |
| 13:18 |
|
schuster |
He also had the option to show out as a checkmark box. I don't know how their coding looks, but they are doing loads of development that schools are interested in. |
| 13:22 |
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jdavidb |
Hi, biglego. :) |
| 13:24 |
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biglego |
morning jdavidb |
| 13:27 |
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| 13:27 |
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chris_n |
gmcharlt: ok, final patch submitted for cn split tests, etc... |
| 13:27 |
|
gmcharlt |
final patch? |
| 13:27 |
|
* gmcharlt |
invites whole new classification scheme on the spot |
| 13:27 |
|
gmcharlt |
*invents |
| 13:30 |
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chris_n |
gmcharlt: final in the sense that any patch is final ;-) |
| 13:30 |
|
gmcharlt |
;) |
| 13:33 |
|
* chris_n |
was tempted to put the entire script inside the BEGIN block... |
| 13:39 |
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|Lupin| |
hmm zebrrasrv is running, the indexes should have been build, and still opac search does not give any result... any hint ? |
| 13:40 |
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|Lupin| |
15:37:50-15/09 zebrasrv(1) [request] Init ERROR 1011 ID:81 Name:ZOOM-C/YAZ Version:3.0.47 91a6395012ede2909078cdedea29a8d9efe60229 |
| 13:41 |
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|Lupin| |
(in the logs of the daemon...) |
| 13:45 |
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| 13:51 |
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jdavidb |
Okay...someone who's good at array-passing, got a sec? |
| 13:52 |
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|Lupin| |
jdavidb: hmm ? |
| 13:52 |
|
jdavidb |
Thanks, |Lupin|. I've got an array of biblio numbers, referred to by $arrayref1. I can Dumper($arrayref1) and see my array, so it's good so far. |
| 13:53 |
|
jdavidb |
I'm trying to feed that array into C4::Search::searchResults. The only other call of that has a hairy construct for that: @{$results_hashref->{$server}->{"RECORDS"}} |
| 13:53 |
|
Ropuch |
|Lupin|: http://lists.koha.org/pipermai[…]ugust/000296.html |
| 13:53 |
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| 13:54 |
|
jdavidb |
I've tried about every shape and size I can think of to pass that array into searchResults, but don't get anything back. @{$arrayref1}, $arrayref1, \$arrayref1...what's amiss here? |
| 13:54 |
|
Ropuch |
|Lupin|: maybe this will help (if you haven't read this already) |
| 13:55 |
|
|Lupin| |
Ropuch: I'l have a look to it, thanks ! |
| 13:56 |
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|Lupin| |
jdavidb: this is far beyond my perl skills, sorry |
| 13:56 |
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|Lupin| |
jdavidb: however, perhaps you may try a use diagnostics pragma |
| 13:56 |
|
|Lupin| |
jdavidb: perhaps Perl ill give you some hints about how to do ? |
| 13:56 |
|
jdavidb |
Hrm. Gonna set some breadcrumbs out with diagnostics...bound be losing it somewhere along the way. |
| 13:59 |
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|Lupin| |
I'm wondering... |
| 13:59 |
|
|Lupin| |
what is the koha system used for ? |
| 14:00 |
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|Lupin| |
is this related to zebra somehow ? |
| 14:02 |
|
Colin |
jdavidb: Isn't it an array of records rather than biblio numbers? |
| 14:03 |
|
jdavidb |
Well, I *thought* that searchResults was wanting biblionumbers, but that seems to not be the case, Colin. Hrrmph. |
| 14:03 |
|
Ropuch |
|Lupin|: I don't think I understand your last two questions ;> |
| 14:03 |
|
jdavidb |
Of course...the answer is *never* easy.. |
| 14:04 |
|
Ropuch |
Once I get through perl tutorial for beginners... ;> |
| 14:05 |
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jdavidb |
Argh! searchResults wants MARC records? :P *gag* |
| 14:06 |
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|Lupin| |
jdavidb: yeah that's possible actually... or references to them... |
| 14:06 |
|
* jdavidb |
peers quizzically at C4::Search::searchResults |
| 14:06 |
|
jdavidb |
Colin++ #sure 'nuf. That's the tip I needed. |
| 14:06 |
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|Lupin| |
Ropuch: well... |
| 14:07 |
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|Lupin| |
Ropuch: usually I installKOha in NoZebra mode. |
| 14:07 |
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| 14:07 |
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|Lupin| |
Ropuch: this time I answered yes when I was asked whether the installer should create a configuration file for Zebra. |
| 14:08 |
|
Ropuch |
|Lupin|: I can't live without zebra now [; |
| 14:08 |
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|Lupin| |
Ropuch: and then I was asked several questions I'm not asked usally, among which a koha user... so I was wondering where it is used, whether I did something wrong at that level... |
| 14:08 |
|
Ropuch |
I used to skip zebra because, too |
| 14:09 |
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| 14:09 |
|
Ropuch |
I just keep pressing enter during intsall |
| 14:09 |
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Ropuch |
*install |
| 14:09 |
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|Lupin| |
Ropuch: any idea how I could fix the problem ? |
| 14:09 |
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|Lupin| |
Ropuch: yes ? and do you have a koha system user, or not ? |
| 14:09 |
|
Ropuch |
I have |
| 14:10 |
|
Ropuch |
I've just followed some howto for ubuntu 8.10 |
| 14:10 |
|
Ropuch |
(except for installing modules via cpan, because i've found them in repo) |
| 14:10 |
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|Lupin| |
Ropuch: so did I |
| 14:10 |
|
Ropuch |
And everething seems to be working just fine |
| 14:11 |
|
Ropuch |
I have libyaz3 ver 3.00.48 if this would help |
| 14:11 |
|
jwagner |
gmcharlt and others, re my question yesterday about linking to SFX, I've got it working (I think) for ISSN. I'm thinking about making this a generic patch, but would appreciate some input. See Bug 3634 for my notes. |
| 14:11 |
|
munin` |
Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/b[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3634 enhancement, P5, ---, jwagnerptfs.com, NEW, Adding OpenURL link to XSLT ISSN/ISBN |
| 14:13 |
|
owen |
jwagner: I'm not sure I understand what the goal is, but would this be a use for Nicole's recent patch to customize the "search for this title in..." links? |
| 14:13 |
|
jwagner |
Might be -- I haven't looked closely at what she's done. Does it specifically pass ISxN as a search parameter? |
| 14:17 |
|
jwagner |
I see the syspref says you can use {TITLE}, {AUTHOR}, or {ISBN} -- it would need to have ISSN as well. Need to talk to Nicole on that one.... |
| 14:17 |
|
owen |
ISBN yes, but I'm not sure about ISSN |
| 14:18 |
|
owen |
It's the OPACSearchForTitleIn preference. |
| 14:21 |
|
jwagner |
Looking at the code, it might be possible to add ISSN. The problem would be distinguishing if the particular record being displayed has an ISBN/ISSN. Have to think about it. |
| 14:22 |
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| 14:37 |
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| 14:37 |
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|Lupin| |
hmm |
| 14:37 |
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|Lupin| |
I'm confused |
| 14:37 |
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|Lupin| |
when connecting to zebra |
| 14:37 |
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|Lupin| |
for the auth command |
| 14:37 |
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|Lupin| |
which login and password should be given ? |
| 14:37 |
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|Lupin| |
those of the db ? those of the system user ? what ? |
| 14:38 |
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| 14:39 |
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nahuel |
|Lupin|, to zebra ? |
| 14:39 |
|
nahuel |
you shouldn't need any login/password to make some requests |
| 14:39 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: yes, to the biblio socket, with yaz-client... |
| 14:40 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: ok |
| 14:40 |
|
nahuel |
so you don't need any login / pwd |
| 14:40 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: I was following http://lists.koha.org/pipermai[…]August/000296.hml |
| 14:40 |
|
nahuel |
yaz-client unix://path/to/socket |
| 14:40 |
|
nahuel |
then |
| 14:40 |
|
nahuel |
base biblios |
| 14:40 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: the problem is my zebra does not work and I don't know why |
| 14:40 |
|
nahuel |
and then you can query it |
| 14:41 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: ok |
| 14:41 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: my problem is that in KOha the searches do not pwork |
| 14:41 |
|
nahuel |
so if you cannot connect to the socket |
| 14:42 |
|
|Lupin| |
nahuel: koha says No result |
| 14:42 |
|
nahuel |
did you watched zebra logs ? |
| 14:42 |
|
|Lupin| |
nahuel: yes |
| 14:42 |
|
|Lupin| |
nahuel: I posted the error message here earlier |
| 14:42 |
|
|Lupin| |
nahuel: give me a second to reproduce the situation and I'll resend it |
| 14:43 |
|
nahuel |
|Lupin|, did you do a rebuild_zebra.pl -r -b -x ? |
| 14:43 |
|
|Lupin| |
16:42:55-15/09 zebrasrv(4) [request] Auth idPass braillenet_admin - |
| 14:44 |
|
|Lupin| |
16:42:55-15/09 zebrasrv(4) [request] Init ERROR 1011 ID:81 Name:ZOOM-C/YAZ Version:3.0.47 91a6395012ede2909078cdedea29a8d9efe60229 |
| 14:44 |
|
|Lupin| |
nahuel: I didn't use the -x... |
| 14:44 |
|
nahuel |
ok |
| 14:45 |
|
nahuel |
but you rebuild ? |
| 14:45 |
|
nahuel |
-r -b ? |
| 14:45 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: I don't know wht there is a braillenet_admin appearing in the logs, I guess I entered this as a zebra user and I shold not have done so... |
| 14:45 |
|
nahuel |
aaaah |
| 14:45 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: yes I rebuilt |
| 14:46 |
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chris_n |
|Lupin|: who owns var/lock/zebradb? |
| 14:46 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: I got some warnings about indexes which were not found... |
| 14:46 |
|
nahuel |
chris_n, it's not a right problem |
| 14:46 |
|
nahuel |
I have an idea |
| 14:46 |
|
nahuel |
2s |
| 14:46 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: sure, thanks ! |
| 14:47 |
|
nahuel |
|Lupin|, can you copypaste your koha-conf in pastebin ? |
| 14:47 |
|
nahuel |
(hiding your passwords) |
| 14:47 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: sure |
| 14:48 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: give me just one second |
| 14:48 |
|
nahuel |
yep i'm not hurried |
| 14:49 |
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| 14:49 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: http://pastebin.com/f3410c7ef |
| 14:51 |
|
nahuel |
so you should verify |
| 14:51 |
|
nahuel |
that the content of tag |
| 14:51 |
|
nahuel |
# |
| 14:51 |
|
nahuel |
serverinfo id="authorityserver"> |
| 14:51 |
|
nahuel |
and |
| 14:51 |
|
nahuel |
# |
| 14:51 |
|
nahuel |
<serverinfo id="biblioserver"> |
| 14:52 |
|
nahuel |
for "user" and "password" |
| 14:52 |
|
nahuel |
that match with the content of etc/zebradb/etc/passwd |
| 14:52 |
|
nahuel |
and etc/zebradb/explain-biblios.xml |
| 14:52 |
|
nahuel |
and etc/zebradb/explain-authorities.xml |
| 14:52 |
|
nahuel |
:) |
| 14:52 |
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|Lupin| |
wow... |
| 14:55 |
|
nahuel |
|Lupin|, I think you have the passwords that doesn't match |
| 14:57 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: I'm wondering |
| 14:57 |
|
|Lupin| |
nahuel: I did a dev install of Koha in /home/seb/koha-dev |
| 14:57 |
|
|Lupin| |
nahuel: are the zebra files you are talking about in /etc or in /home/seb/koha-dev/etc ? |
| 14:57 |
|
nahuel |
yep |
| 14:57 |
|
nahuel |
no |
| 14:57 |
|
nahuel |
hmmm |
| 14:57 |
|
nahuel |
depends :) |
| 14:57 |
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|Lupin| |
hmmm ? |
| 14:58 |
|
nahuel |
it's in the path that is specified in you koha-conf |
| 14:58 |
|
nahuel |
:) |
| 14:58 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: ah ok |
| 14:58 |
|
nahuel |
normaly it should be in the same folder |
| 15:00 |
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| 15:02 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: yeah it's there |
| 15:02 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: there is indeed a password mismatch |
| 15:02 |
|
nahuel |
:) |
| 15:02 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: still... there is a group tag in explain-biblios.xml |
| 15:02 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: what should this one content ? |
| 15:04 |
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|Lupin| |
oooops contain ! |
| 15:04 |
|
nahuel |
It's commented |
| 15:04 |
|
nahuel |
:) |
| 15:04 |
|
nahuel |
So it shouldn't have anything |
| 15:05 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: uh I don't think it's commented in mine... |
| 15:07 |
|
nahuel |
You can compare with official files |
| 15:07 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: I just restarted zebrasrv and the error is exactly the same... |
| 15:07 |
|
nahuel |
Just comment |
| 15:09 |
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|Lupin| |
nahuel: done and restarted the daemon, same error |
| 15:22 |
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|Lupin| |
aaah it's all the authentication section which is commented... didn't see that... |
| 15:23 |
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| 15:25 |
|
kf |
bye #koha |
| 15:25 |
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| 15:42 |
|
rhcl |
What time is the foundation meeting? |
| 15:44 |
|
chris_n |
1900UTC |
| 15:44 |
|
rhcl |
TNX |
| 15:52 |
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| 15:53 |
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Wizzyrea_ |
heh http://www.librarytechnology.org/ |
| 15:55 |
|
owen |
Good timing |
| 15:55 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
heh yea |
| 16:00 |
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|Lupin| |
bye everybody see you tomorrow |
| 16:00 |
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| 16:03 |
|
owen |
Maybe Mr. Breeding would like to volunteer to be pro-bono executive director of our foundation? :) |
| 16:04 |
|
jdavidb |
heh. First glance, though, the basic structure he suggests is sound. |
| 16:05 |
|
owen |
It's a bad time to be asking libraries to pay money for just about anything, let alone dues to a foundation |
| 16:06 |
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jdavidb |
I concur, but it's gonna take a few shekels to make it work. |
| 16:06 |
|
owen |
I know, I just don't know how to get over the chicken-and-egg problem |
| 16:07 |
|
owen |
Anyway, the meeting today should cover lots of ground like that |
| 16:07 |
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jdavidb |
Hope so, yah. |
| 16:09 |
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Wizzyrea_ |
it might not be a bad idea for the vendors to collect foundation fees as part of their service |
| 16:09 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
so, that gets wrapped up in the vendor cost to libraries |
| 16:09 |
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jdavidb |
as a pass-through? Yeah, that might work. |
| 16:10 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
yea |
| 16:10 |
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Colin |
But what if you don't have a vendor? |
| 16:10 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
it's just one way to get money to the foundation |
| 16:11 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
I think if you've gone and hosted it yourself, you kind of have a obligation to support the software you're using |
| 16:11 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
morally, if not actually |
| 16:11 |
|
owen |
I suppose it might be some kind of value-added feature to a support contract, "Includes foundation membership!" |
| 16:11 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
yea, that's what I'm kind of thinking |
| 16:11 |
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| 16:11 |
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owen |
That would be the only way to make it appealing for vendors to incur the cost |
| 16:12 |
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jdavidb |
You'd no-doubt have a few wild-eyed radicals who go it on their own, and flatly won't cough up. |
| 16:12 |
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Wizzyrea_ |
... you could go so far as to say that if you don't include foundation membersship in your fees as a vendor, you don't get listed as an official support vendor |
| 16:13 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
on koha.org |
| 16:13 |
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jdavidb |
That would be a more-easily-judged way of deciding that. Some of the current things are pretty subjective. |
| 16:19 |
|
rhcl |
http://online.wsj.com/article/[…]90915-705598.html |
| 16:28 |
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Wizzyrea_ |
ha |
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| 16:32 |
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rhcl |
Interesting Korerorero - http://tinyurl.com/korerorero |
| 16:34 |
|
rhcl |
For those interested in some of Chris' Maori, I've found this helpful - http://www.lexilogos.com/engli[…]ri_dictionary.htm |
| 16:38 |
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| 16:50 |
|
* jdavidb |
shuts down for a quick meeting here, then a commute home before the Foundation discussion. See y'all dreckly. |
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Ropuch |
Hello again |
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pianohacker |
Hello |
| 17:43 |
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nengard |
howdy |
| 17:44 |
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brendan |
heya pianohacker |
| 17:44 |
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brendan |
howdy nengard |
| 17:44 |
|
pianohacker |
Hi, nicole, brendan |
| 17:44 |
|
sekjal |
hi, everyone |
| 17:44 |
|
pianohacker |
Hi Ian |
| 17:44 |
|
brendan |
Hi Ian |
| 17:44 |
|
brendan |
ditto |
| 17:45 |
|
nengard |
grrr - everytime I log in I have an email addressed to "Dearest One" |
| 17:45 |
|
nengard |
can you say spam?? |
| 17:46 |
|
sekjal |
nengard: you'd think that phrase would get factored into spam filters by now... |
| 17:47 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
I always take heart that someone in Nigeria loves me |
| 17:47 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
ahh, delusional warm fuzzy moments, how I love thee |
| 17:48 |
|
pianohacker |
I got an interesting twist on that the other day; apparently someone in Nigeria wants to FedEx a bank draft to me |
| 17:48 |
|
rhcl_lunch |
rhcl wonders if it is possible to have a virtual warm fuzzy moment? |
| 17:48 |
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| 17:48 |
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| 17:48 |
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pianohacker |
Yup. It's when you resolve a git merge conflict |
| 17:48 |
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| 17:49 |
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kr1shnan |
chris: how much longer to the meeting? |
| 17:49 |
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rhcl |
Kinda like those sports seats cushions with the hot beads in them. |
| 17:49 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
1h 15min |
| 17:50 |
|
* sekjal |
is reading the AGPL |
| 17:50 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
mmmm toasty tushy |
| 17:52 |
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| 17:53 |
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| 17:54 |
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slef |
chris: are you in the chair? |
| 17:54 |
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slef |
my network is up/down/up/down today :( |
| 17:55 |
|
slef |
I am unhappy that the AGPL is being misadvertised again. |
| 17:55 |
|
slef |
It will add problems to Koha while solving none. |
| 17:55 |
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pianohacker |
slef: What kind of problems? |
| 17:56 |
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gmcharlt |
slef: best way to deal with it is to reply in the mailing list thread with your concerns about it |
| 17:56 |
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slef |
pianohacker: see mailing list post when it arrives. |
| 17:56 |
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rhcl |
chris is still sleeping |
| 17:56 |
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slef |
gmcharlt: see ^^ |
| 17:56 |
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pianohacker |
well then |
| 17:56 |
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| 17:58 |
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owen |
Hi vickiteal! |
| 18:00 |
|
slef |
I keep replying to the mailing list threads and people keep starting new threads about it that suggest they haven't read the old ones. |
| 18:00 |
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slef |
It's like any closing-the-commons problem... people keep suggesting fences until someone puts them in and we lose the commons :( |
| 18:01 |
|
rhcl |
and how does this relate to the agpl slef? |
| 18:01 |
|
rhcl |
or does it? |
| 18:02 |
|
slef |
agpl is pretty much a one-way move... as soon as the RM starts accepting agpl code, it'll be very hard to go back to the gpl |
| 18:03 |
|
owen |
slef wrote "Having to offer the complete thing |
| 18:03 |
|
owen |
as a download from your servers to all users (even vexatious ones) |
| 18:03 |
|
owen |
seems like it would be an unacceptable extra burden on already |
| 18:03 |
|
owen |
cash-strapped libraries." |
| 18:03 |
|
owen |
...and "Also, if I remember correctly, the Affero GPL doesn't require that you |
| 18:03 |
|
owen |
can backup/restore all your data easily either, so there would still |
| 18:03 |
|
owen |
be ways for hosting providers to lock in libraries." |
| 18:03 |
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slef |
where does logbot_backup log to? |
| 18:04 |
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pianohacker |
slef: Chris's home server |
| 18:04 |
|
owen |
http://stats.workbuffer.org/irclog/koha/today |
| 18:04 |
|
slef |
owen: thanks |
| 18:04 |
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slef |
pianohacker: oic |
| 18:04 |
|
owen |
Those quotes were from a message slef wrote in August in the "Support for Koha" thread |
| 18:05 |
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slef |
owen: any replies? |
| 18:06 |
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sekjal |
since going AGPL is (almost) a one-way process, it seems to me we should consider it very carefully, and not do it in reaction to the current situtation |
| 18:06 |
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owen |
No the conversation did stay on the license topic after that |
| 18:06 |
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owen |
did -> did *not* |
| 18:09 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
aside: interesting topic on Talk of the Nation today: "how will google change how we read books" |
| 18:10 |
|
pianohacker |
So the question of the AGPL is mainly, "do and should we trust libraries/support companies to release their code, and is requiring that step excessive?", correct? |
| 18:11 |
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rhcl |
aside: quote of the day: E hiahiatia ana te whakaaetanga a te iwi whÄnui. The approval of the community is required. |
| 18:11 |
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rhcl is now known as rhcl_brb |
| 18:12 |
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owen |
Could a Koha foundation make participation so appealing that we wouldn't need a new license to prevent shenanigans? |
| 18:13 |
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pianohacker |
Just noticed, oddly enough; http://koha.org/support/pay-fo[…]how-to-get-listed, *.kohalibrary.com |
| 18:14 |
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pianohacker |
owen: Through what incentives? |
| 18:14 |
|
owen |
At the very least, through strict guidelines for...you guessed it...how to get listed. |
| 18:15 |
|
snail |
rhcl: interesting orthography in that quote there |
| 18:15 |
|
owen |
The guidelines on that koha.org page were developed in direct response to a situation very much like the one we're in today, only now Liblime is on the other side |
| 18:15 |
|
Colin |
The logic behind AGPL was that things like Software as a Service could be used to take away users rights over free software as enshrined in the GPL |
| 18:16 |
|
snail |
rhcl: but google supports the use |
| 18:16 |
|
sekjal |
so, perhaps kind of like an accreditation process: you show that you meet the Koha Communities guidelines, and we endorse you |
| 18:16 |
|
pianohacker |
Hmm. If LibLime is the only one with edit access to koha.org, and LibLime is ignoring or at least skirting parts of the how-to-get-listed guidelines, how do we use that as an incentive? |
| 18:16 |
|
chris |
if the foundation did that, in a transparent way, id be ok with that |
| 18:16 |
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pianohacker |
Good morning, chris |
| 18:16 |
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Wizzyrea_ |
i had the thought earlier that vendors could pass through foundation fees to their clients, as a requirement to be listed as a vendor |
| 18:16 |
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chris |
the current way companies are listed is very flawed |
| 18:17 |
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owen |
pianohacker: The foundation would be a first step towards taking back or re-creating koha.org |
| 18:17 |
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| 18:18 |
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pianohacker |
We could use the wiki as a possible first step |
| 18:18 |
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| 18:18 |
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pianohacker |
Though we would have to decide whether we would want to transition that from a Koha Developer's Wiki to a general Koha Wiki |
| 18:18 |
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| 18:18 |
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chris |
this i agree with slef on, it is much better to have a willing participant than a coerced one |
| 18:19 |
|
owen |
I agree with sekjal that a licensing decision shouldn't be made in a reactionary way |
| 18:19 |
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chris |
but being a willing participant should get you a reward, ... certainly if you are supporting koha but your own flavour of koha, you should no longer be listed as a koha support company |
| 18:20 |
|
owen |
While it merits discussion, I don't think it should be on the table for the foundation meeting proper. |
| 18:20 |
|
chris |
i agree |
| 18:20 |
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chris |
its a big big subject |
| 18:20 |
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Colin |
I agree |
| 18:20 |
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owen is now known as owen-away |
| 18:20 |
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pianohacker |
chris: That particular restriction might well warrant its own meeting |
| 18:20 |
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chris |
:) |
| 18:20 |
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pianohacker |
As nailing it down in a fair and precise manner will be extremely difficult |
| 18:20 |
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chris |
yep |
| 18:21 |
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slef |
yes, relicensing does not directly affect foundation-forming |
| 18:21 |
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| 18:21 |
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sekjal |
though once we form the foundation, a committee can be appointed to review the licensing |
| 18:21 |
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pianohacker |
Also, I send my apologies; not going to be able to attend the foundation meeting, going to a college-related event |
| 18:22 |
|
chris |
itd be nicer, if the committee had as its brief "how can we encourage good citizens" |
| 18:22 |
|
chris |
and license being just one option |
| 18:22 |
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pianohacker |
chris: Sounds like a good idea |
| 18:23 |
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sekjal |
chris: agreed |
| 18:23 |
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chris |
pianohacker: any opinions on the foundation that you want represented at the meeting? |
| 18:24 |
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rhcl_brb is now known as rhcl |
| 18:25 |
|
pianohacker |
Only that we need to deal with the Enterprise Koha situation in a measured way. I know that's hardly a unique opinion, but demonizing LibLime will not acheive our goals |
| 18:25 |
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chris |
*nod* |
| 18:25 |
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| 18:27 |
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| 18:27 |
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chris |
i agree with that, my only cavaet is that we need to be clear that we aren't happy either |
| 18:27 |
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pianohacker |
Well, yeah |
| 18:28 |
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chris |
what's your college event if you dont mind me asking? |
| 18:28 |
|
pianohacker |
MIT meet-and-greet |
| 18:28 |
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chris |
sweet |
| 18:29 |
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pianohacker |
Yup. Should be interesting |
| 18:29 |
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Wizzyrea_ |
MIT would be lucky to have you >.> |
| 18:29 |
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gmcharlt |
indeed |
| 18:29 |
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pianohacker |
thank you for saying so |
| 18:30 |
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| 18:32 |
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| 18:35 |
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slef |
http://teachingopensource.org/[…]/Git_introduction |
| 18:35 |
|
* sekjal |
apparently just got a special delivery up in tech services |
| 18:36 |
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| 18:37 |
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| 18:37 |
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sekjal |
hmmm... not the book I was hoping for |
| 18:38 |
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| 18:39 |
|
* gmcharlt |
favors de-escalating the vendor listing page by accepting entries using just two criteria: does the vendor say they offer Koha services on their website and (b) are they not known to be in active violation of the GPL by not distributing source code at all |
| 18:39 |
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kr1shnan_ |
gmcharlt: +1 |
| 18:40 |
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chris |
+1 |
| 18:40 |
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| 18:40 |
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mason |
+1 from me too |
| 18:40 |
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| 18:40 |
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Colin_ |
+1 |
| 18:41 |
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slef |
I think that only works if there is a tighter template for entries (like thre used to be?) |
| 18:41 |
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chris_n |
+1 |
| 18:41 |
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paul_p |
mmm... am I late ? |
| 18:41 |
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chris |
nope |
| 18:41 |
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slef |
because sadly some people will not be reasonable about what they put in there. |
| 18:41 |
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chris |
20 mins paul |
| 18:41 |
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paul_p |
ah, ok, that's what I thought. |
| 18:41 |
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nengard |
+1 |
| 18:41 |
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chris_n |
paul_p: just dry-running some ideas ;-) |
| 18:41 |
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chris |
oh yeah, we probably need rules on what you can say too |
| 18:41 |
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slef |
chris: have you got the chair? I am connected by YoYo Internet tonight :-/ |
| 18:42 |
|
* paul_p |
agrees, but favors also a page explaining "whodowhat" |
| 18:42 |
|
paul_p |
the problem being to have something that can't be disputed :\ |
| 18:42 |
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chris |
slef: i would rather if someone else could |
| 18:42 |
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gmcharlt |
make it a directory, then, and have it list just contact info + enumeration of services offered from a set list (e.g., dev, hosting, migration, helpdesk support, training) |
| 18:42 |
|
chris |
my son will be waking up very soon |
| 18:42 |
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slef |
ok, who wants the chair? |
| 18:43 |
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chris |
so i wont be able to give being the chair the focus it deserves |
| 18:43 |
|
slef |
going to grab a snack, then will take another run at http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=kohafoundation |
| 18:44 |
|
chris |
someone volunteer, its unfair on poor old gmcharlt (hes not that old) to have to chair everything :) |
| 18:45 |
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jdavidb |
...but he does it so *well* chris. |
| 18:45 |
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| 18:45 |
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nengard |
what does the chair have to do? |
| 18:45 |
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Wizzyrea_ |
eh, we've got 15 mins to decidde :P |
| 18:45 |
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nengard |
just keep everyone on track? |
| 18:45 |
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chris |
yeah keep ppl on the agenda |
| 18:46 |
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nengard |
okay - I can give it a whirl if you'll help me when you're on |
| 18:46 |
|
* jdavidb |
nominates nengard |
| 18:47 |
|
* cait |
supports nomination |
| 18:47 |
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| 18:48 |
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owen-away is now known as owen |
| 18:48 |
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sekjal |
nengard: if you're chairing, should I take notes for the wiki? |
| 18:48 |
|
nengard |
sekjal that would be great |
| 18:48 |
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slef |
nengard: thanks. I'll try to help if you want (msg me), but 1. YoYo Internet, 2. Strong Opinions and 3. ... I forget 3. |
| 18:48 |
|
jdavidb |
Rule Six: There is Noooooooo....rule six. |
| 18:49 |
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sekjal |
nengard: deal |
| 18:49 |
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* paul_p |
votes nengard |
| 18:49 |
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Colin_ is now known as Colin |
| 18:49 |
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* nengard |
off to check the agenda again |
| 18:50 |
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| 18:50 |
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| 18:51 |
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| 18:51 |
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nengard |
if you're here for the meeting remember to add yourself to the list of attendees on the wiki: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]etingnotes09sep15 |
| 18:51 |
|
jwagner |
I thought Rule Six was don't forget Rule One.... |
| 18:52 |
|
slef |
Vote for what you want the foundation to do (publicly-visible vote I think) at http://doodle.com/mobile/parti[…]=bubb4xrqs54qgpwx |
| 18:52 |
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jdavidb |
That's Rule Two, jwagner. |
| 18:53 |
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| 18:55 |
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| 18:55 |
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gmcharlt |
note re my vote that I'm not necessarily opposed to other possible activities of a foundation |
| 18:55 |
|
gmcharlt |
just that it should be focused to begin with |
| 18:55 |
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| 18:56 |
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kr1shnan_ |
Now that nengard is here, i'd like to hear from her what she thinks has happened with LibLime... |
| 18:56 |
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| 18:56 |
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jdavidb |
concur, gmcharlt: There aren't many of the things on that list that I'm *against*, but it's useful, IMO to handle the top-shelf items *first* |
| 18:56 |
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| 18:56 |
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nengard |
kr1shnan_ I am unable to comment on that point |
| 18:56 |
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| 18:57 |
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kr1shnan_ |
nengard: ok |
| 18:57 |
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| 18:58 |
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| 18:58 |
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chris |
kr1shnan_: it is unfair to ask any former liblime employee that question, they have legal obligations that mean they cannot answer it |
| 18:58 |
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| 18:58 |
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chris |
just fyi |
| 18:58 |
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Colin |
agree gmcharlt I think we must focus on getting the main things agreed |
| 18:59 |
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kr1shnan_ |
yes, i understand |
| 18:59 |
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nengard |
I show 1 minute til meeting time |
| 18:59 |
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chris |
i agree too |
| 18:59 |
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| 19:00 |
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| 19:00 |
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| 19:00 |
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| 19:00 |
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nengard |
hello all, my clock shows that it is meeting time, but I'm going to wait as people are still trickling in |
| 19:00 |
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Wizzyrea_ |
i didnt realize we were picking the top shelf items, so the ones i'm alone on are def not top priorities for me |
| 19:00 |
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nengard |
just a minute or two |
| 19:01 |
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kr1shnan_ |
chris: do we have any statistics for how big the Koha codebase is... |
| 19:01 |
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chris |
yep tons of them |
| 19:01 |
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kr1shnan_ |
throw me a few...will ya? |
| 19:02 |
|
nengard |
Okay let's get started |
| 19:02 |
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chris |
https://www.ohloh.net/p/koha/analyses/latest |
| 19:02 |
|
nengard |
This is the Koha Foundation Forming Meeting |
| 19:02 |
|
nengard |
Let's start with introductions - include your real name and organization (if you want) |
| 19:02 |
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| 19:02 |
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| 19:03 |
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slef |
MJ Ray, software.coop |
| 19:03 |
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savitra |
hello, savitra from Nucsoft |
| 19:03 |
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nengard |
Nicole C. Engard - Currently in-between jobs |
| 19:03 |
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jwagner |
Jane Wagner, PTFS |
| 19:03 |
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jransom |
Joann Ransom. Acting Head of Libraries. Horowhenua Library Trust. |
| 19:03 |
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sekjal |
Ian Walls, NYU Health Sciences Libraries |
| 19:03 |
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jdavidb |
J. David Bavousett, PTFS |
| 19:03 |
|
gmcharlt |
Galen Charlton, Equniox |
| 19:03 |
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| 19:03 |
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owen |
Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library |
| 19:03 |
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paul_p |
Paul Poulain, BibLibre |
| 19:03 |
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magnusenger |
Magnus Enger, Libriotech, Norway |
| 19:03 |
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dbirmingham |
David Birmingham, PTFS |
| 19:03 |
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kr1shnan_ |
krishnan mani, India |
| 19:03 |
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Nate |
Nate Curulla, ByWater Solutions |
| 19:03 |
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snail |
stuart yeates, New Zealand |
| 19:03 |
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Colin |
Colin Campbell ptfs-europe |
| 19:03 |
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chris |
Chris Cormack, Catalyst, Translation manager |
| 19:03 |
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cait |
Katrin Fischer, Germany |
| 19:03 |
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vickiteal |
Vicki Teal Lovely, South Central Library System, Madison, Wisconsin |
| 19:03 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
Liz Rea, Northeast Kansas Llibrary System, US |
| 19:03 |
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richard |
Richard Anderson - Katipo |
| 19:03 |
|
rhcl |
rhcl - Greg Lawson - Rolling Hills Consolidated Library |
| 19:03 |
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tajoli |
Zeno Tajoli (CILEA) |
| 19:03 |
|
rachel |
Rachel Hamilton-Williams, Katipo, Kaitiaki |
| 19:03 |
|
collum |
Garry Collum - Kenton County Public Library |
| 19:04 |
|
miromurr |
Thomas Brevik, Bergen, Norway, Royal Norwegian Naval Academy Library |
| 19:04 |
|
Ropuch |
Piotr Wejman, CSNE Library, Poland |
| 19:04 |
|
IrmaCalyx |
Irma Birchall - Calyx - Australia |
| 19:04 |
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schuster |
David Schuster, Plano ISD |
| 19:04 |
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sh |
Sverre Helge Bolstad, Norway |
| 19:04 |
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davi |
hi |
| 19:05 |
|
nengard |
I will be chairing this meeting, but welcome all help you want to give ;) I will try to keep everyone on track. skejal will be in charge of note-taking and will update the wiki for us all |
| 19:05 |
|
chris |
thank you nengard and sekjal |
| 19:05 |
|
gmcharlt |
nengard++ |
| 19:05 |
|
gmcharlt |
sekjal++ |
| 19:05 |
|
nengard |
The first agenda item is to discuss our goals for a foundation. Hopefully you hae all taking a look at the wiki to see the foundation forming notes |
| 19:05 |
|
jransom |
rosa is coming :) |
| 19:05 |
|
nengard |
http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=kohafoundation |
| 19:05 |
|
davi |
Davi Diaz, worker for software.coop |
| 19:05 |
|
chris_n |
Chris Nighswonger, FBC |
| 19:05 |
|
nengard |
Welcome everyone |
| 19:06 |
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breeding |
Marshall Breeding, (lurking) |
| 19:06 |
|
nengard |
So, let us discuss the goals we want to see a foundation meet for the community |
| 19:06 |
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ricardo |
(Finally... I could get here through Mibbit.) |
| 19:07 |
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nengard |
I personally think that a non-profit organization in charge of the governance of the Koha community would eliminate many of the problems we had over the years -- it seems that when money is involved it clouds people's visions |
| 19:07 |
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| 19:08 |
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nengard |
other desires are listed here: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=kohafoundation |
| 19:08 |
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slef |
Would anyone feel strongly that there's a goal which should be added to the poll? |
| 19:08 |
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| 19:08 |
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chris |
my first aim for a foundation would not be governance |
| 19:08 |
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| 19:08 |
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kr1shnan_ |
chris: can you clarify that... |
| 19:08 |
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* gmcharlt |
points out poll for people just joining: <slef> Vote for what you want the foundation to do (publicly-visible vote I think) at http://doodle.com/mobile/parti[…]=bubb4xrqs54qgpwx |
| 19:08 |
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nengard |
for those joining in late please introduce yourself for the group and the notes |
| 19:08 |
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chris |
it would be a place to hold thngs like koha.org, etc |
| 19:08 |
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slef |
gmcharlt: ta. I linked it on http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=kohafoundation just now too |
| 19:09 |
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| 19:09 |
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nengard |
chris I think of those things as part of governance ... |
| 19:09 |
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chris_n |
I would think the securing of intellectual property would be first priority |
| 19:09 |
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chris |
safe repository for our shared assets |
| 19:09 |
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nengard |
agreed |
| 19:09 |
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chris |
then governing the project could come later |
| 19:09 |
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ricardo |
Ricardo Dias Marques, Portugal (author of the "Installation Guide of Koha 3 in openSUSE 11" and contributor to the Portuguese Translation) |
| 19:09 |
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richard |
good thinking |
| 19:09 |
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owen |
But very early on we'd need some neutral rules set up for things like management of the web site |
| 19:09 |
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| 19:10 |
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kr1shnan_ |
is it possible that securing the assets is something that may take very long...? |
| 19:10 |
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kr1shnan_ |
and in the meantime, what? |
| 19:10 |
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owen |
Any part of this could take very long :) |
| 19:10 |
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paul_p2 |
(hotel wifi not reliable. Trying with 3G key) |
| 19:10 |
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ricardo |
paul_p2: Good luck Paul :) |
| 19:10 |
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| 19:10 |
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slef |
kr1shnan_: in the meantime, we are no worse than today. |
| 19:10 |
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nengard |
I'm with owen on the rules - I'd like to see anyone involved in the project able to edit the website - but some sort of security to prevent spamming |
| 19:11 |
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davi |
I think the Foundation should be managed democratically by its member, and Foundations do not use to be a good legal figure to support a democratic management model |
| 19:11 |
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| 19:11 |
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owen |
Does our choice of primary goals affect what kind of foundation we should be looking at? |
| 19:11 |
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| 19:11 |
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mason |
mason from NZ waves... |
| 19:11 |
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chris |
nengard: i agree but without first having the foundation owning .koha.org ... that point is moot |
| 19:11 |
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tajoli |
I think a organization more light as possible |
| 19:11 |
|
nengard |
very true chris |
| 19:11 |
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ricardo |
chris: *nod* |
| 19:12 |
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| 19:12 |
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nengard |
and owen this is the part i get lost with - the business side of the foundation |
| 19:12 |
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tajoli |
But now who own koha.org ? |
| 19:12 |
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chris |
liblime at the moment tajoli |
| 19:12 |
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slef |
I heard no voices for adding more options to the poll, unless davi wants me to add "managed democratically by its member" and chris "owning koha.org"? |
| 19:12 |
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owen |
Yes, and unfortunately the business side of the foundation is what we have to figure out |
| 19:12 |
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| 19:12 |
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Jo left #koha |
| 19:13 |
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schuster |
When it comes time to filling as a foundation etc... that is when "purpose" is very important. |
| 19:13 |
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davi |
What about an "Association" instead of a "Foundation". Association have a better record to be good at democratic management |
| 19:13 |
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schuster |
File ... |
| 19:13 |
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rosa |
hello everyone |
| 19:13 |
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| 19:13 |
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ricardo |
schuster: "File"? |
| 19:13 |
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schuster |
legally. |
| 19:13 |
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rachel |
by buisness side do you mean how it's managed, how things are decided? |
| 19:13 |
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davi |
slef, Yes, please, add " "managed democratically by its member" with Association figure instead of Foundation as base |
| 19:14 |
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ricardo |
schuster: Ah, understood |
| 19:14 |
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Jo joined #koha |
| 19:14 |
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kr1shnan_ |
Has anyone checked with Joshua if they'll part with koha.org? |
| 19:14 |
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kr1shnan_ |
amicably, that is? |
| 19:14 |
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| 19:14 |
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nengard |
For ease of business purposes, I like the idea of attaching Koha to an exisiting foundation for the purposes we discuss here today and then revisiting the posibility of creating our own foundation at a later date |
| 19:14 |
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chris |
thats also another thing we have to decide, there are organisations taht can take on this role already, do we want to create another one ... but that might be next on the agenda |
| 19:14 |
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chris |
hehe snap |
| 19:14 |
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nengard |
hehe |
| 19:14 |
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davi |
rachel, democracy management is key since the developers point of view. We are all developers, you know |
| 19:14 |
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nengard |
great minds |
| 19:14 |
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stephaniechase |
hello -- I'm from the koha group in Vermont -- are people thinking about an international group to oversee everything? |
| 19:14 |
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nengard |
stephaniechase yes |
| 19:15 |
|
nengard |
this is a foundation forming meeting: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]etingnotes09sep15 |
| 19:15 |
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davi |
nengard, What is "your" foundation? |
| 19:15 |
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nengard |
davi, I don't have one |
| 19:15 |
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davi |
ah |
| 19:15 |
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nengard |
just thinking if we want to attach to one of the ones listed on the wiki |
| 19:15 |
|
snail |
stephaniechase: legally not-for-profits must be based somewhere |
| 19:15 |
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stephaniechase |
I know on the notes for the meeting there was some discussion of an overall international one vs. country specific |
| 19:16 |
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schuster |
We would need to look at organizations that are global to associate ourselves with and if they are willing to accept us "temporarially" |
| 19:16 |
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| 19:16 |
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rhcl |
slef and chris are apparently members of spi, do they have any comments related to this? |
| 19:16 |
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slef |
am adding "managed democratically by its member (Association more than Foundation)", "owning koha.org" and "networking local associations (such as KUDOS, KohaLA)" to it |
| 19:16 |
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chris |
there are 2 organisations i am interested in SPI, and HLT |
| 19:16 |
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tajoli |
I think that the solution "Horowhenua Library Trust" immediatly |
| 19:16 |
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nengard |
HLT seems like the most logical to me |
| 19:16 |
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chris |
as possible repositories for our assets |
| 19:17 |
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davi |
schuster, I think an Association will fit better than a Foundation to our purpose (developers) |
| 19:17 |
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owen |
Can we have chris the floor for a moment to make his case? |
| 19:17 |
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slef |
I think applying to become an associated project of SPI would give us a home, temporary or permanent, but I hear that libraries may be sceptical of a developer-led foundation. |
| 19:17 |
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slef |
owen: ok |
| 19:17 |
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owen |
If this is a good time, chris |
| 19:17 |
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nengard |
eveyrone hold your questions while chris makes his case |
| 19:17 |
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miromurr |
would it be possible to approach IFLA and see if it is possible to put Koha under their umbrella? |
| 19:17 |
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chris |
ok, heres my deal, it is going to take a long time to build a foundation of our own |
| 19:17 |
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chris |
and it is a process that has to be done really carefully |
| 19:18 |
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chris |
or yuo make a huge rod for your own back by accident |
| 19:18 |
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tajoli |
I thinK IFLA is not good. Too borocratic |
| 19:18 |
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paul_p2 |
tajoli: ++ |
| 19:18 |
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chris |
HLT is already a registered charitable trust |
| 19:18 |
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paul_p2 |
HLT++ |
| 19:18 |
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davi |
chris++ |
| 19:18 |
|
chris |
it has satisfied all the legal requirements to be one |
| 19:19 |
|
chris |
and has a long (longest :) history with koha |
| 19:19 |
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chris |
maybe if rosa's internet is stable |
| 19:19 |
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chris |
she can speak to it more? |
| 19:19 |
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davi |
http://www.hltmag.co.uk/ HLT? |
| 19:19 |
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| 19:19 |
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chris |
horowhenua library trust davi |
| 19:19 |
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slef |
davi: http://www.library.org.nz/ |
| 19:19 |
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rachel |
ah no - www.library.org.nz |
| 19:20 |
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rhcl |
chris: pzl compare/contrast HLT with SPI |
| 19:20 |
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slef |
seeAlso http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?[…]nua_library_trust |
| 19:20 |
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Wizzyrea_ |
presumably they would have no interest in holding the assets once a proper foundation was formed? |
| 19:20 |
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chris |
nope |
| 19:20 |
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nengard |
can anyone from HLT speak to what Chris is suggesting? |
| 19:20 |
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jransom |
I think Rosalie is here |
| 19:20 |
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rosa |
I am. |
| 19:20 |
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chris |
they may well be the proper foundation even :) |
| 19:21 |
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rosa |
I'm no longer employed by HLT, having retired, but I'll comment on what I think their actions/responses might be. |
| 19:21 |
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Wizzyrea_ |
independent foundation, then :) |
| 19:21 |
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jransom |
Rosa: youtalk I'lkl listen :) |
| 19:21 |
|
jransom |
I have spoken with the Trust and they are happy to step in temporaily |
| 19:22 |
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chris |
rhcl: SPI is a organisation with a variety of software projects, focused on software projects, HLT is a trust focused on running libraries, but with the distinction of having started KOha and Kete :) |
| 19:22 |
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jransom |
they know this is aal happening |
| 19:22 |
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| 19:22 |
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rosa |
HLT has a parallel situation with Kete, which was the second piece of OS software we developed, and we held on to everything pretty tight with Kete. We now have to decide what to do with that software too |
| 19:22 |
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jransom |
and happy to be involved |
| 19:23 |
|
rosa |
I think the trustees could be persuaded to take a respobsibility here |
| 19:23 |
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kr1shnan_ |
Translation of a Hindi proverb: "The destiny of ice is to melt into its own waters..." |
| 19:23 |
|
jransom |
difference with Kete is that Katipo has done most of the NZ development and has sked all funders to assign copyright back to HLT. so we own all copyriht to the code. |
| 19:24 |
|
rosa |
but they will need to be assured just what they're taking on, and how much work and time they are committing to. |
| 19:24 |
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chris |
that makes sense rosa |
| 19:24 |
|
owen |
So we would need to define what the koha community needs from the trustees. |
| 19:25 |
|
davi |
If it is free software, GPL, BSD, it does not matter who 'own' the copyright |
| 19:25 |
|
nengard |
It sounds to me like the easiest way to make this move along efficiently is to make HLT the temporary holders of the koha copyright and domain for the foundation that will later be formed |
| 19:25 |
|
jransom |
philosphically they ultimately would prefer a strong community organisation to take over - when it can. |
| 19:25 |
|
slef |
poll updated (three extra options for early voters if you still have the window open) - new voters can go to http://doodle.com/mobile/parti[…]=bubb4xrqs54qgpwx |
| 19:25 |
|
brendan |
sorry just joining now -- long phone call |
| 19:25 |
|
rosa |
I would state confidently that they wouldn't be keen to hang on to anything if there was some responsible entity to hand over to. |
| 19:25 |
|
owen |
What do you think joining HLT would bring to the koha project? |
| 19:25 |
|
slef |
who are HLT's members? |
| 19:25 |
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davi |
nengard, If it is free software, GPL, BSD, it does not matter who 'own' the copyright |
| 19:25 |
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miromurr |
sounds to me that HLT would be a good temporary solution and then maybe spend time working on an association/foundation? |
| 19:25 |
|
jransom |
http://kete.library.org.nz/tru[…]how/24-who-we-are |
| 19:26 |
|
nengard |
true davi |
| 19:26 |
|
paul_p2 |
davi is right: the copyright is not important. what is is the koha.org domain name, and the trademarks. |
| 19:26 |
|
rosa |
there are 5 to 7 trustees, all appointed by Horowhenua District Council |
| 19:26 |
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davi |
paul_p2, trademark is key |
| 19:26 |
|
nengard |
right sorry used the wrong words |
| 19:26 |
|
brendan |
Brendan Gallagher -- ByWater Solutions |
| 19:26 |
|
jransom |
http://kete.library.org.nz/tru[…]nua-library-trust |
| 19:27 |
|
davi |
miromurr, Why not move directly to an association/foundation? |
| 19:27 |
|
nengard |
Is there a way that voted community members would be able to work with the HLT if needed to make Koha decisions? |
| 19:27 |
|
jransom |
al good reputable people, JPs, QSMs, |
| 19:27 |
|
rosa |
they have a trust deed which controls what they can do, but its pretty inclusive as long as it serves the purpose of promoting library service in Horowhenua |
| 19:27 |
|
davi |
HLT is not needed |
| 19:27 |
|
nengard |
davi I think it's a time issue |
| 19:27 |
|
slef |
JP = Judge, QSM = ? |
| 19:27 |
|
nengard |
founding our own non profit is very time consuming |
| 19:27 |
|
|
thd-away is now known as thd |
| 19:27 |
|
jransom |
i am certain thaa the trust will want guidance and input and recommendations :) |
| 19:27 |
|
miromurr |
davi gives us more time to set up the right solution |
| 19:28 |
|
chris |
JP = justice of the peace, QSM = Queen service medal |
| 19:28 |
|
jransom |
but all youngish and vibrant |
| 19:28 |
|
rosa |
pillars of the community |
| 19:28 |
|
nengard |
I've done a bit of a poor job with chairing here :) we seem to be on agenda item #3 |
| 19:28 |
|
nengard |
I mean #4 |
| 19:28 |
|
chris |
i suppose we could have a memorandum of understanding with the trust, which sets out the terms |
| 19:28 |
|
slef |
chris: +1 |
| 19:28 |
|
jransom |
so koha could be set up as a subcommittee as we id with kete |
| 19:29 |
|
rachel |
the reason for HLT is to have a legally incorporated society to hold property "in trust', rather vendors doing that now |
| 19:29 |
|
gmcharlt |
chris: who would the counterparty be, legally speaking? |
| 19:29 |
|
jransom |
report directly to the trust |
| 19:29 |
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Jo left #koha |
| 19:29 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
we probably need to set out immediate and secondary concerns |
| 19:29 |
|
chris |
gmcharlt: good question :) |
| 19:29 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
almost like a strategic plan |
| 19:29 |
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Jo joined #koha |
| 19:29 |
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Wizzyrea_ |
I can't believe I just said that. |
| 19:29 |
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chris_n |
who is the 'we' at this point? |
| 19:29 |
|
* jdavidb |
squints to see if Wizzyrea is really wizzyrea. Doesn't *sound* like her... |
| 19:29 |
|
jransom |
the trust want a briefing on the situatio now: what has happened and what the problems are. |
| 19:30 |
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miromurr |
Wizzyrea :) I agree! |
| 19:30 |
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slef |
rachel: I assume HLT is prevented from becoming a vendor or selling donated assets to one by its legal configuration? |
| 19:30 |
|
nengard |
we = the people on this meeting and anyone who wants to give their opinion |
| 19:30 |
|
jransom |
then a clear indciation of what is required of them immediately |
| 19:30 |
|
jransom |
and then a bit further down the track. |
| 19:30 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
we... interested parties? people with an interest in the longevity and vibrancy of koha? |
| 19:30 |
|
rosa |
I think who is we is an important point from the trustees pov |
| 19:30 |
|
tajoli |
Immediatly: koha.net |
| 19:30 |
|
chris |
slef: yes thats the good thing about a trust |
| 19:30 |
|
ricardo |
rosa: *nod* |
| 19:31 |
|
rachel |
HLT have experience ( I think) holding valuable assets for communities (and not selling them :-) like a museum does, they hold valuable Taonga (treasures) for local maori for example |
| 19:31 |
|
schuster |
and expensive to create an association or foundation and getting it recognized etc... |
| 19:31 |
|
rachel |
so it not such a leap for them to look after/house our treasures for us |
| 19:31 |
|
gmcharlt |
jransom et al: to propose a framework - if website is the immediate goal, actions woudl be requesting transfer of domain and arranging hosting arrangements with project members and interesting volunteers for Koha websites |
| 19:31 |
|
nengard |
I think that this is a good point to give a quick summary and try to decide what our next steps will be - is everyone okay with that |
| 19:31 |
|
thd |
chris: points out a very important question about the 'we' |
| 19:31 |
|
davi |
we = main part of the Koha community ? |
| 19:31 |
|
chris |
schuster: yes expensive and time consuming :) |
| 19:31 |
|
chris_n |
to restate gmcharlt: is 'we' able to enter into a legal relationship with HLT? |
| 19:31 |
|
davi |
or even all it |
| 19:32 |
|
ricardo |
chris_n: Right... It does seem a bit of a "catch 22" |
| 19:32 |
|
jransom |
isn't 'we' a bunch of individuals and orgs with a common interest |
| 19:32 |
|
miromurr |
One of the reasons I suggested IFLA is that we can become a "sub-group/association" and work within that framework - less paperwork actually |
| 19:32 |
|
chris |
gmcharlt: that seems like a very good short term goal |
| 19:32 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
I don't understand the need for a legal counterparty for entrusting assets to HLT temporarily |
| 19:32 |
|
chris |
there isnt kr1shnan_ |
| 19:32 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
we could all just become signatories to a memorandum of agreement |
| 19:33 |
|
ricardo |
kr1shnan_: How can you trust assets to others if they don't belong to you? |
| 19:33 |
|
chris |
it only needs the person who has the asset currently to sign it |
| 19:33 |
|
jransom |
so maybethetust would call for applications / nominations of people interested in forming a goivernance subcommitte f the trust. say 5 - 7 people who would then be 'we' |
| 19:33 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
it's kind of a problem that the people who hold the assets aren't here now :/ |
| 19:33 |
|
slef |
chris: AIUI in .uk, trusts don't /necessarily/ have an asset lock like CICs and some co-ops. Does HLT? |
| 19:33 |
|
davi |
miromurr++ |
| 19:33 |
|
chris_n |
chris: that may be the show stopper |
| 19:34 |
|
davi |
kr1shnan++ |
| 19:34 |
|
ricardo |
(that's what I mean by "catch 22") |
| 19:34 |
|
tajoli |
In my experience IFLA is very long on doing anything. Probalbly better if you stay in Holland |
| 19:34 |
|
chris |
chris_n: thats the show stopper for any foundation tho ... |
| 19:34 |
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| 19:34 |
|
owen |
I'd like to give someone an opportunity to lay out the argument for IFLA, if only just for context |
| 19:34 |
|
nengard |
okay |
| 19:34 |
|
ricardo |
owen++ |
| 19:34 |
|
nengard |
everyone hold questions |
| 19:34 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
If any requests or action needs to be initiated, will HLT be responsible to do those? |
| 19:34 |
|
chris |
also, i would like slef to speak to SPI |
| 19:34 |
|
slef |
so, who is "we"? Two obvious-to-me classes: developers/supporters and users. Any more? |
| 19:34 |
|
nengard |
someone please explain why we'd want IFLA |
| 19:35 |
|
nengard |
IFLA first then SPI |
| 19:35 |
|
slef |
parking "who is we" |
| 19:35 |
|
nengard |
miromurr can you explain the reasons for why we'd want IFLA? |
| 19:36 |
|
nengard |
quote from earlier <miromurr> One of the reasons I suggested IFLA is that we can become a "sub-group/association" and work within that framework - less paperwork actually |
| 19:36 |
|
davi |
Is IFLA democratic managed? |
| 19:36 |
|
miromurr |
IFLA is an established international organization - has the interests of libraries first - can do paperwork |
| 19:36 |
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rosa left #koha |
| 19:36 |
|
nengard |
http://www.ifla.org/ |
| 19:36 |
|
davi |
by all its members? |
| 19:36 |
|
owen |
Let's give miromurr a chance to finish |
| 19:37 |
|
miromurr |
Ifla has several different organizational models for subgroups - we should investigate if this is a long term option |
| 19:37 |
|
davi |
If we already plan get our own association/foundation later, it do not matter too much with who go first, but we must take care of not getting trapped |
| 19:38 |
|
tajoli |
I'm woking on a italian translation of Unimarc as CC. I have finished at may 2009. They didn't answer yet. |
| 19:38 |
|
nengard |
thanks miromurr - slef can you tell us about SPI? |
| 19:38 |
|
nengard |
or should we take IFLA questions first? |
| 19:38 |
|
slef |
take IFLA questions first IMO |
| 19:38 |
|
tajoli |
So no very quickly |
| 19:38 |
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| 19:39 |
|
owen |
How about someone lay out the disadvantages to IFLA...we've heard "slow," but I'm not sure what that means in practical terms |
| 19:39 |
|
rosab |
sorry, Im back |
| 19:39 |
|
nengard |
okay - i was wondering if we signed up with IFLA if the community might lose control of the trademarks and domain - it seems like we're signing up for a monster org |
| 19:39 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
How much can IFLA relate to Koha? |
| 19:39 |
|
nengard |
that's what i'm wondering kr1shnan_ |
| 19:39 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
they do appear to have a library technology subgroup |
| 19:39 |
|
chris_n |
does IFLA represent any libraries using koha? |
| 19:39 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
so it would appear that they have an interest |
| 19:40 |
|
tajoli |
Well the IT section secretary is a Koha fun and a Koha vendor |
| 19:40 |
|
thd |
IFLA has no funding to even organise their own website properly |
| 19:40 |
|
davi |
slow would be bad, because we just want some quick switch and later follow our own way? |
| 19:40 |
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| 19:40 |
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nengard |
Wizzyrea_ but are these subgroups the same as committees in other associations? |
| 19:40 |
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| 19:40 |
|
nengard |
or do we manage our own subgroup? |
| 19:40 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
Will someone at IFLA be very upset if they did not "do well" by us? |
| 19:40 |
|
thd |
IFLA is 5 full time equivalents for all the world's libraries |
| 19:40 |
|
miromurr |
IFLA currently changing org looking for more direct partipciation |
| 19:41 |
|
slef |
I think Brooke has concerns about IFLA and ethics but maybe I misunderstand http://www.nabble.com/Satisfac[…]n-td20006648.html |
| 19:41 |
|
tajoli |
He is : Edmund Balnaves |
| 19:41 |
|
thd |
5 on a good day and maybe 3 on most days |
| 19:41 |
|
davi |
thd, The goal of join IFLA SPI etc is get funding? If so, maybe would be better fund ourselves |
| 19:41 |
|
slef |
miromurr: got a link about them looking for more direct participation (now or later) |
| 19:42 |
|
slef |
davi: the goal is to gather/manage funding and other assets I think. A central rallying point. |
| 19:42 |
|
slef |
oops |
| 19:42 |
|
slef |
miromurr: have you got a link about them looking for more direct participation (now or later) please? |
| 19:42 |
|
chris |
sorry gotta change a nappy brb |
| 19:42 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
no idea |
| 19:42 |
|
tajoli |
http://www.prosentient.com.au/index.html |
| 19:42 |
|
gmcharlt |
slef: I don't think Brooke is speaking to that point, actually |
| 19:42 |
|
miromurr |
slef: looking |
| 19:43 |
|
davi |
slef, I am not sure IFLA or SPI will help to get enough funds |
| 19:43 |
|
thd |
davi: the goal has great merit but I can imagine that it would impose a burden to help IFLA to be recognised. I would consider that a favourable burden but a real one. |
| 19:43 |
|
rhcl |
Does IFLA have a position on OSS? I don't see anything from a quick glance at the site? |
| 19:43 |
|
thd |
s/to be recognised/for Koha to be recognised within IFLA/ |
| 19:44 |
|
* paul_p2 |
has contacts with Réjan Savard, so could speak with him directly (he's a member of the IFLA board) |
| 19:44 |
|
davi |
If the goal is get funding, maybe we can get it ourselves |
| 19:44 |
|
nengard |
I think we need to add researching some of IFLA's goals and missions to our list of things to do at a later date |
| 19:44 |
|
davi |
How much we need? |
| 19:44 |
|
tajoli |
http://www.ifla.org/en/blogs/ebalnaves |
| 19:44 |
|
davi |
and to spend doing what? |
| 19:44 |
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| 19:44 |
|
davi |
funding developers? |
| 19:44 |
|
thd |
rhc1 even with careful examination of the site for known documents it can be nearly impossible to find them. |
| 19:44 |
|
chris_n |
http://www.ifla.org/en/blogs/o[…]ce-moving-forward |
| 19:44 |
|
owen |
davi: funding isn't a primary goal of the foundation IMO |
| 19:44 |
|
jransom |
HLT is not in a position to fund anything much so anything needing funding will have to be funded outside of our purse |
| 19:44 |
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| 19:45 |
|
sekjal |
notes recap: poll puts ensuring the ongoing governance of the project as top priority. |
| 19:45 |
|
chris |
owen++ |
| 19:45 |
|
paul_p2 |
Réjan Savard knows well Koha. |
| 19:45 |
|
richard |
owen: agreed |
| 19:45 |
|
nengard |
I didn't think we were looking for funding in this first round |
| 19:45 |
|
nengard |
no one mentioned that when we were talking about goals |
| 19:45 |
|
nengard |
the immediate goal is to get the koha trademarks |
| 19:45 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
nengard: nevertheless we may need some for any preliminary steps |
| 19:45 |
|
nengard |
to be held by a non profit |
| 19:45 |
|
ricardo |
nengard++ |
| 19:45 |
|
chris |
im actually more interested in the .koha.org |
| 19:45 |
|
sekjal |
notes recap: we are looking at attaching ourselves to an existing foundation, rather than immediately forming our own |
| 19:45 |
|
miromurr |
I think maybe we should shelve IFLA for the momnt and focus on immediate concerns |
| 19:45 |
|
nengard |
I think we're moving a bit to far ahead for this meeting |
| 19:45 |
|
chris |
but trademarks would be good too |
| 19:45 |
|
sekjal |
notes recap: comparing HLT, IFLA, SPI |
| 19:45 |
|
nengard |
right |
| 19:45 |
|
chris_n |
chris++ |
| 19:45 |
|
davi |
sekjal, ensuring governance is beginning to create a democratic managed Association the sooner possible |
| 19:46 |
|
nengard |
thanks sekjal |
| 19:46 |
|
nengard |
let's have slef tell us about SPI so we can compare the options |
| 19:46 |
|
slef |
OK, well, SPI is Software in the Public Interest www.spi-inc.org which is a New York not-for-profit corporation 501c(3) which is controlled by a board elected by its contributing members. |
| 19:46 |
|
ricardo |
chris: But owning the trademark Koha would secure against disputes regarding koha.org ownership |
| 19:46 |
|
ricardo |
(sorry... shutting up now) |
| 19:46 |
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| 19:46 |
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slef |
Usually the contributing members are software developers, but I could ask whether representatives donating libraries could be included. It still won't be a library foundation, though. |
| 19:46 |
|
davi |
nengard++ , I would go with a non-profit association |
| 19:46 |
|
slef |
representative of donating libraries... |
| 19:47 |
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| 19:47 |
|
slef |
It's been running for about 10 years and has the strong position on FOSS and assets that you'd expect from a debian-associated org |
| 19:48 |
|
nengard |
slef - the same question to you that i had for the others - do we think we'd be able to use SPI as a temp holding grounds while we are getting more organized? |
| 19:48 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
slef: any example assets for SLEF? |
| 19:48 |
|
chris |
could SPI act as a temporary holder in the same way that we were talking about HLT ... while we decide on permanent solution (which might end up SPI) |
| 19:48 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
sorry /SLEF/SPI |
| 19:48 |
|
slef |
nengard: Yes, the OpenSource Initiative and the Gnome foundation have done that. |
| 19:48 |
|
nengard |
thanks |
| 19:49 |
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kr1shnan_ |
thanks |
| 19:49 |
|
nengard |
other questions about SPI? |
| 19:49 |
|
slef |
both were SPI-linked, now are their own corporations |
| 19:49 |
|
slef |
kr1shnan_: example assets are money, domain names and trademarks |
| 19:49 |
|
owen |
slef, would you care to make a case for SPI over the other choices? Anything to highlight? |
| 19:49 |
|
stephaniechase |
slef, you mentioned it before and I just wanted to say that as a librarian, it doesn't matter to me whether the organization is developer or library based. |
| 19:49 |
|
thd |
I have a question about SPI as about any organisation. |
| 19:49 |
|
slef |
owen: I'd highlight the democracy, but I don't know if IFLA has that too. |
| 19:49 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
pros/cons of a US non profit holding the assets? |
| 19:50 |
|
nengard |
i like the idea that they have a good history and that we can get our assets out and move them to a koha specific org at a later date if we want |
| 19:50 |
|
jransom |
is it more likely that US donors would give to A US based Koha org over a NZ based one? |
| 19:50 |
|
slef |
stephaniechase: I mention it because several people mention it to me, suggesting there are grants out there that only a library-linked org could get. |
| 19:50 |
|
thd |
What is the actual policy for becoming a voting member? |
| 19:50 |
|
davi |
Wizzyrea_, country should not matter if it is done rightly? |
| 19:51 |
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| 19:51 |
|
slef |
thd: contributing to free FOSS development. I'll find the actual wording for you now. |
| 19:51 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
i am suggesting that we nominate a few people to actually discuss this with SPI, HLT, IFLA, any others and then come back... |
| 19:51 |
|
schuster |
Knowing where we are now - I would think the people who are currently holding any assets would have a harder time justifying not giving them to HTL. |
| 19:51 |
|
jransom |
they have a good project list: debian, drupal, open office etc |
| 19:51 |
|
rhcl |
agree w/ kr1shnan |
| 19:51 |
|
jdavidb |
kr1shnan_++ |
| 19:51 |
|
slef |
"Contributing memberships are open to persons and organizations who have made significant contributions to the free software community, as determined by the membership committee." |
| 19:51 |
|
jransom |
schuster: agreed |
| 19:51 |
|
chris_n |
schuster++ |
| 19:51 |
|
thd |
slef: I do not mean the general guidelines but the working policy. |
| 19:51 |
|
gmcharlt |
jransom: that'a actually a consideration for why a Koha foundation may never end up being a significant nexus for fundraising - local foundations may be a better bet |
| 19:51 |
|
davi |
SPI++ would be my current vote |
| 19:51 |
|
nengard |
Can we put together a comparison chart of sorts on the wiki |
| 19:51 |
|
chris |
schuster: that is a good point to keep in consideration |
| 19:52 |
|
nengard |
where the experts can fill in the details |
| 19:52 |
|
stephaniechase |
slef, our project in VT is run through a 501(c)3, and I imagine other koha projects are too... I imagine an existing library based non-profit could be the run-through for grants |
| 19:52 |
|
nengard |
we can also set up a preliminary vote based on the 3 options presented here |
| 19:52 |
|
sekjal |
I'll work up the chart with the pros/cons we laid out here, and ya'll can add new info as it comes up |
| 19:52 |
|
nengard |
which i think bring us to the last agenda item |
| 19:52 |
|
thd |
slef: The membership committee was supposed to create actual rules but I have never seen them. |
| 19:52 |
|
nengard |
talking about the next moves |
| 19:52 |
|
owen |
breeding made a case on his web site today for a library-oriented foundation: http://www.librarytechnology.o[…]adID=126&BlogID=1 |
| 19:52 |
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| 19:52 |
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slef |
thd: working practice is that one joins as non-contributing, apply for upgrade with verifiable claims which are reviewed by the membership committee. |
| 19:52 |
|
owen |
Is that a question for our "real" foundation, rather than a "preliminary" one? |
| 19:53 |
|
nengard |
sekjal++ |
| 19:53 |
|
slef |
thd: it might be lost in the website again. |
| 19:53 |
|
* nengard |
raises hand to bring all to attention for a minute |
| 19:53 |
|
nengard |
might I suggest that we let sekjal put the notes together and then all participate in filling in the gaps out the three options we talked about today |
| 19:53 |
|
thd |
slef: I am looking for a reasonably objective standard that anyone could interpret in much the same manner. |
| 19:54 |
|
slef |
thd: found it. http://www.spi-inc.org/about-s[…]p/guidelines.html |
| 19:54 |
|
rhcl |
For the developer/library focus issue, right now I think we are all in this together as equals. |
| 19:54 |
|
nengard |
we can add ot that list the option of forming a totally new foundation |
| 19:54 |
|
nengard |
but for now I think we might need to do some research before moving forward |
| 19:54 |
|
davi |
nengard++ |
| 19:54 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
nengard: we'd also need some common criteria of what we are looking for...as a prologue to that list |
| 19:54 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
nengard++ |
| 19:54 |
|
* gmcharlt |
suggests that we set a *firm* deadline for this research |
| 19:55 |
|
ricardo |
nengard and kr1shnan_ : agreed |
| 19:55 |
|
schuster |
gmcharlt++ |
| 19:55 |
|
thd |
nengard: I would like to raise the SFLC. |
| 19:55 |
|
nengard |
gmcharlt would 2 weeks be 2 short a time? |
| 19:55 |
|
chris_n |
gmcharlt++ |
| 19:55 |
|
slef |
nengard: this has been researched for 3.5 years now. It's time to move on soon. |
| 19:55 |
|
gmcharlt |
I suggest the following |
| 19:55 |
|
gmcharlt |
1. we set up a preference poll in the next day or two |
| 19:55 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
yes, decision time |
| 19:55 |
|
thd |
I agree with slef but there are some details missing from some options. |
| 19:55 |
|
owen |
slef: researched, but not in an organized fashion |
| 19:56 |
|
gmcharlt |
2. discuss for no longer than two weeks |
| 19:56 |
|
davi |
slef, move on soon ++ |
| 19:56 |
|
gmcharlt |
3. hold a second vote |
| 19:56 |
|
chris |
i like that plan |
| 19:56 |
|
nengard |
gmcharlt++ |
| 19:56 |
|
slef |
I think the ideal would be a library+developer multi-stakeholder foundation. It may be that no such one exists. |
| 19:56 |
|
chris_n |
+1 |
| 19:56 |
|
jdavidb |
gmcharlt++ |
| 19:56 |
|
ricardo |
gmcharlt: 2. Discuss where - "Koha-Devel" mailing list? |
| 19:56 |
|
Ropuch |
gmcharlt++ |
| 19:56 |
|
miromurr |
sounds like a good idea |
| 19:56 |
|
schuster |
Will there be a place for people/companies to "Comment" |
| 19:56 |
|
nengard |
If we discuss on the lists - I recommend keeping a page ont he wiki up to date |
| 19:56 |
|
nengard |
sometimes emails get lost |
| 19:56 |
|
owen |
And publicize the poll to the Koha mailing list for a wider range of opinions. Many find IRC too scary |
| 19:56 |
|
chris |
slef: i think it doesnt, but finding a holding place while we create one is where im at :) |
| 19:57 |
|
vickiteal |
Why Koha-Devel mailing list if both libraries and developers are included? |
| 19:57 |
|
davi |
library+developer multi-stakeholder democratic association/foundation |
| 19:57 |
|
nengard |
we need to post on all mailing lists |
| 19:57 |
|
owen |
vickiteal, I agree. |
| 19:57 |
|
nengard |
not just devel |
| 19:57 |
|
chris_n |
wiki is the ideal place along with announcements to both lists |
| 19:57 |
|
miromurr |
davi++ |
| 19:57 |
|
ricardo |
vickiteal: OK. Sounds reasonable |
| 19:57 |
|
thd |
When we vote how do we ensure that the vote would be inclusive enough for such an important question? |
| 19:57 |
|
paul_p2 |
gmcharlt: ++ |
| 19:57 |
|
vickiteal |
Thanks! |
| 19:57 |
|
jransom |
yep - bott list |
| 19:57 |
|
schuster |
nengard++ all mailing lists/facebook etc... |
| 19:57 |
|
slef |
I feel that breeding's blog post is stuck in the old view of vendors as servants rather than developers... but then, that does feel like where we are at times recently. |
| 19:57 |
|
nengard |
thd inclusive how? meaning enough people? |
| 19:57 |
|
owen |
thd: there is no guarantee |
| 19:57 |
|
sekjal |
wiki should be centralize document storage. distribute links via listservs, twitter, IRC, etc. |
| 19:57 |
|
nengard |
I'm with schuster |
| 19:58 |
|
gmcharlt |
thd: anybody who is not paying enough attention to fail to vote in two weeks time is not interested enough, IMO |
| 19:58 |
|
rachel |
how about a minimum number of votes? |
| 19:58 |
|
nengard |
we list it everywhere possible to get libraries and developers included |
| 19:58 |
|
gmcharlt |
we're past the long vacation periods |
| 19:58 |
|
nengard |
we don't want to leave anyone out |
| 19:58 |
|
chris_n |
thd: that is always the problem in a democracy: some people exercise their right not to vote... :( |
| 19:58 |
|
rachel |
ie if only 5 votes - not enough |
| 19:58 |
|
nengard |
rachel what would be enough? |
| 19:58 |
|
davi |
sekjal++ |
| 19:58 |
|
thd |
Should there be a call to those who do not read the English lists to pay attention to the process? |
| 19:58 |
|
chris |
yes |
| 19:58 |
|
tajoli |
30, 50% of the present now |
| 19:58 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
thd: excellent idea |
| 19:59 |
|
chris |
i will announce on koha-translate |
| 19:59 |
|
rachel |
there are about 60 users here - how about 30? |
| 19:59 |
|
slef |
thd++ |
| 19:59 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
and someone to translate the info |
| 19:59 |
|
chris_n |
if there is not enough concern at this point to garner more than 5 votes, then we are in trouble |
| 19:59 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
for those who don't speak english |
| 19:59 |
|
paul_p2 |
+ how would we deal with companies like mine ? 1 man 1 vote ? 1 company 1 vote ? |
| 19:59 |
|
nengard |
okay - i will set up the polls unless someone else wnats to do it |
| 19:59 |
|
magnusenger |
chris_n++ |
| 19:59 |
|
schuster |
We also have the mailing list from KohaCon09 - I know about publicity and trying to get the word out Koha is quite scattered. |
| 19:59 |
|
paul_p2 |
(or libraries) |
| 19:59 |
|
nengard |
and post the links to the wiki and lists and social networks |
| 19:59 |
|
nengard |
for all to share on the places i miss |
| 19:59 |
|
nengard |
does tthat owrk? |
| 19:59 |
|
nengard |
that work? |
| 19:59 |
|
chris |
works for me |
| 19:59 |
|
vickiteal |
I don't think we need to worry about what is enough. What do we have to measure against? |
| 20:00 |
|
chris_n |
nengard++ |
| 20:00 |
|
schuster |
Paul I believe also has a list for French? |
| 20:00 |
|
chris |
i think it will be pretty obvious if we dont have enough |
| 20:00 |
|
vickiteal |
We shouldn't exclude those who aren't here today from the count. |
| 20:00 |
|
chris |
we dont need a set number |
| 20:00 |
|
thd |
paul_p2 raises an important issue which I think should be about individuals not companies or libraries. |
| 20:00 |
|
davi |
paul_p2, 1 person 1 vote |
| 20:00 |
|
schuster |
One company one vote, one library one vote.. |
| 20:00 |
|
ricardo |
nengard: I think it can... I agree with posting links in the wiki to relevant "mailing list" messages, blog entries, etc... |
| 20:00 |
|
paul_p2 |
schuster: yep, i'll translate (and put the poll link on our blog as well) |
| 20:00 |
|
|
joetho left #koha |
| 20:00 |
|
tajoli |
1 person 1 vote |
| 20:00 |
|
nengard |
tajoli++ |
| 20:00 |
|
slef |
me and my sock puppets say 1 person 1 vote |
| 20:00 |
|
vickiteal |
Do we really need to be formal about the vote? |
| 20:00 |
|
schuster |
vickiteal++ |
| 20:01 |
|
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| 20:01 |
|
nengard |
self - your sock puppets don't get votes :) hehe |
| 20:01 |
|
nengard |
vickiteal, no i don't think so |
| 20:01 |
|
tajoli |
I can transalte and port in italian (few people until now) |
| 20:01 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
in many cases the one vote might be the feeling of an organization, but not necessarily so |
| 20:01 |
|
nengard |
just some general ideas of what we're looking for |
| 20:01 |
|
chris |
vickiteal: in so much is that we want people to take it seriously then yes |
| 20:01 |
|
gmcharlt |
vickiteal: I think formal enough to ensure that 1 person, 1 vote actually means 1 real live human being |
| 20:01 |
|
jransom |
i'm not sure whether 1 perosn = 1 vote or 1 company = 1 vote |
| 20:01 |
|
chris_n |
formality = credibility |
| 20:01 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
i'm for 1 person 1 vote |
| 20:01 |
|
chris |
1 person 1 vote for me too |
| 20:01 |
|
thd |
Yet, how do we keep some interest group from unfairly recruiting people to vote if we have no standard for who is allowed to vote? |
| 20:01 |
|
davi |
thd, paul_p2 , http://gnuherds.org/charter#Voting |
| 20:01 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
maybe, we can take some of the votes at random, and ask people to verify that they indeed voted that way |
| 20:02 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
we could require a name or an institution |
| 20:02 |
|
slef |
nengard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S[…]puppet_(Internet) |
| 20:02 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
i.e., verification for a formal vote |
| 20:02 |
|
vickiteal |
If company/institution then what qualifies them? |
| 20:02 |
|
jransom |
if its overwhelmeing vote 1 way or the other then won'' be an issue |
| 20:02 |
|
jransom |
the problem will be with close results |
| 20:02 |
|
vickiteal |
Does SCLS get a vote (not live)? |
| 20:02 |
|
* nengard |
giggles at slef |
| 20:02 |
|
paul_p2 |
i'm for 1 person 1 vote, and with non anonymous votes. Thus, if someone tries to organize some bad things, we would see. |
| 20:02 |
|
chris |
vickiteal: of course |
| 20:02 |
|
davi |
schuster, thd , paul_p2 http://gnuherds.org/faq#company_votes |
| 20:02 |
|
chris_n |
paul_p2++ |
| 20:03 |
|
chris |
scls has committed more than a lot of ppl who have been live for years |
| 20:03 |
|
nengard |
anyone with an interest in koha gets a vote |
| 20:03 |
|
jransom |
agree with paul |
| 20:03 |
|
slef |
I think we should not be too formal now, but total the vote in several ways like 1 person 1 vote, 1 org 1 vote, 1 type/sector 1 vote and so on. |
| 20:03 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
you have an interest in the long term viability and vivacity of koha, right vickiteal? :) |
| 20:03 |
|
magnusenger |
paul_p2++ |
| 20:03 |
|
chris |
committed = participated :) |
| 20:03 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
I think that should be the only qualifier |
| 20:03 |
|
vickiteal |
Yes and thanks! |
| 20:03 |
|
nengard |
paul_p2++ |
| 20:03 |
|
chris_n |
chris++ |
| 20:03 |
|
jransom |
anyone who cares enough to vote, can vote |
| 20:03 |
|
nengard |
Okay - summary time! |
| 20:03 |
|
schuster |
++ everyone. |
| 20:03 |
|
nengard |
sekjal will post the notes on the wiki |
| 20:04 |
|
ricardo |
I still have 2 short questions... |
| 20:04 |
|
nengard |
nengard will put a vote up by the end of today (EST) |
| 20:04 |
|
sekjal |
by providing name/affiliation, it will be clear who in the community. lots of us know lots of us |
| 20:04 |
|
thd |
nengard: How do we distinguish those with an interest in Koha from those who may be called upon merely to influence the vote imporperly. |
| 20:04 |
|
nengard |
we will all research over the next two weeks |
| 20:04 |
|
nengard |
and then we will vote again and have another meeting |
| 20:04 |
|
chris |
sekjal++ |
| 20:04 |
|
ricardo |
nengard++ |
| 20:04 |
|
davi |
sekjal++ |
| 20:04 |
|
nengard |
thd - not sure ... |
| 20:04 |
|
chris |
i think sekjal answered that |
| 20:04 |
|
chris |
already |
| 20:04 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
hmm... by research...is it ad-hoc? |
| 20:05 |
|
nengard |
i mean fill in the comparison so that we can make an educated vote the second time around |
| 20:05 |
|
jransom |
would be niuce to see reserach posted to the wiki |
| 20:05 |
|
davi |
thd, the way sekjal propose (by providing name/affiliation) |
| 20:05 |
|
slef |
kr1shnan_: good point. owen commented that it has been unstructured so far. |
| 20:05 |
|
ricardo |
jransom++ |
| 20:05 |
|
nengard |
and answer some of the questions we couldn't answer on this chat |
| 20:05 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
i thought we'd have a few people for each option that was identified, and they'd go off and actually speak with each of them |
| 20:05 |
|
thd |
nengard: Just to be clear, I have seen the voting process and other processes abused in some organisations. |
| 20:05 |
|
vickiteal |
Quick question... |
| 20:05 |
|
vickiteal |
Should we include a new foundation as an option in the vote? |
| 20:05 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
since jransom, rosa, Chris etc. looks like they already spoke with HLT |
| 20:05 |
|
nengard |
vickiteal - yes |
| 20:05 |
|
slef |
jransom++ instead of splattered over the mailing list ignoring past research. |
| 20:06 |
|
ricardo |
vickiteal: yes |
| 20:06 |
|
nengard |
thd -- not sure how to prevent it ... do you have a suggestion other than name/affiliation |
| 20:06 |
|
nengard |
? |
| 20:06 |
|
davi |
thd, abuse can be detected via (by providing name/affiliation) |
| 20:06 |
|
davi |
in this initial community organization state |
| 20:06 |
|
jransom |
guess we will have to define what consitututes abuse :) |
| 20:06 |
|
vickiteal |
I trust those setting up the vote/poll to determine what votes are valid. |
| 20:06 |
|
ricardo |
My question is: does anyone know what is the current status and/or statutes (charter) of the "Koha Software Foundation" started by LibLime? |
| 20:06 |
|
slef |
vickiteal: maybe, but make it clear it will involve a wait. LibLime's KSF was filed in February, but is still unlaunched. |
| 20:06 |
|
sekjal |
thd: the overhead to providing a rigourous means of verfication may be too great for a community our size (at this time) |
| 20:07 |
|
jransom |
nods ... |
| 20:07 |
|
owen |
ricardo: no one knows but LibLime |
| 20:07 |
|
chris |
ricardo: only liblime |
| 20:07 |
|
slef |
ricardo: I'm pretty sure no developers do. |
| 20:07 |
|
thd |
davi: Detecting is one thing but a formal procedure to do something about a detectable problem is something else. |
| 20:07 |
|
davi |
vickiteal, I would include a democratic association instead |
| 20:07 |
|
nengard |
okay - is everyone okay with us closing this meeting? |
| 20:07 |
|
davi |
thd, just apply common sense for this initial community organization state |
| 20:07 |
|
ricardo |
owen / chris / slef : OK, thanks for the info. That's a shame |
| 20:07 |
|
* gmcharlt |
states for the record that the question of the purpose of a foundation is separate from its desired governance structure |
| 20:07 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
nengard: some suggestions |
| 20:07 |
|
thd |
sekjal: Verification is not really what I meant in terms of false assertion. |
| 20:08 |
|
schuster |
Great job!nengard... applause.... |
| 20:08 |
|
kr1shnan_ |
how about identifying those assets that we really want the foundation to hold... |
| 20:08 |
|
chris |
gmcharlt++ |
| 20:08 |
|
ricardo |
kr1shnan++ |
| 20:08 |
|
nengard |
yes, that will be one of the polls krishnan_ |
| 20:08 |
|
jransom |
well done Nicole |
| 20:08 |
|
miromurr |
nengaard+++ |
| 20:08 |
|
gmcharlt |
nengard++ |
| 20:08 |
|
thd |
sekjal: I meant more something like marching disinterested voters to the poll. |
| 20:08 |
|
slef |
gmcharlt: foundation||association does actually suggest some different things, although the koha project community has been a bit relaxed/sloppy in usage. |
| 20:08 |
|
chris |
nengard++ |
| 20:08 |
|
jransom |
i would like an update for trustees |
| 20:08 |
|
Ropuch |
nengard++ |
| 20:08 |
|
magnusenger |
nengard++ |
| 20:08 |
|
nengard |
okay - i call this meeting to a close for now :) and we will post the date/time of the next meeting to all appropriate outlets |
| 20:08 |
|
sekjal |
thd: ah, okay. sorry. |
| 20:09 |
|
slef |
jransom: when for? |
| 20:09 |
|
jransom |
does anyone in the know feel like providing that briefing paper for me? |
| 20:09 |
|
chris |
jransom: would the write up from this meeting suffice? |
| 20:09 |
|
davi |
gmcharlt, some times direct democracy is better than management structure, See http://gnuherds.org/charter#Voting |
| 20:09 |
|
|
miromurr left #koha |
| 20:09 |
|
jransom |
putting an agenda tiogether for mailing this Thursday, meeting next Thursday |
| 20:09 |
|
thd |
chris: why is this meeting not in logbot? |
| 20:09 |
|
chris |
lives at liblime thd |
| 20:09 |
|
owen |
thd: http://stats.workbuffer.org/irclog/koha/today |
| 20:09 |
|
chris |
it is however being logged |
| 20:10 |
|
slef |
http://doodle.com/mobile/overv[…]=bubb4xrqs54qgpwx interesting results so far. Will post to list later. |
| 20:10 |
|
chris |
by logbot_backup to that url owen pasted |
| 20:10 |
|
jransom |
i don't have the history to this or all the conversation |
| 20:10 |
|
|
kr1shnan_ left #koha |
| 20:10 |
|
jransom |
the back channel for want of a better term |
| 20:10 |
|
|
savitra left #koha |
| 20:10 |
|
chris |
unfortunately, the people who know cant say |
| 20:10 |
|
slef |
jransom: can you email me questions/headings for the briefing paper and I'll see what I can do? Us third sector orgs need to stick together ;-) |
| 20:11 |
|
chris |
that was for jransom |
| 20:11 |
|
jransom |
thanks slef - that would be great. |
| 20:11 |
|
slef |
yes, as chris notes, be aware that I don't know all the answers |
| 20:11 |
|
chris |
but someone can summarise all that has been said publicly |
| 20:11 |
|
jransom |
jransomlibrary.org.nz |
| 20:11 |
|
Ropuch |
Bah, i misvoted two questions |
| 20:11 |
|
|
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| 20:11 |
|
rachel |
what do you need jo? |
| 20:12 |
|
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| 20:12 |
|
slef |
Ropuch: I think I can remove your old vote (oooh, evilness... but I promise not to do it in general) |
| 20:12 |
|
|
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| 20:12 |
|
rosab |
a feel for how much work and responsibility we're asking the trustees to take |
| 20:12 |
|
slef |
Ropuch: would you like me to? |
| 20:13 |
|
jransom |
and why - as what has goine wrong or could go wrong to |
| 20:13 |
|
jransom |
the path forward - various options. |
| 20:13 |
|
Ropuch |
slef: no, let's not make a procedence |
| 20:13 |
|
jransom |
i can verbally update them from today and say 'watch this space' |
| 20:13 |
|
|
Colin_ joined #koha |
| 20:13 |
|
slef |
Ropuch: good. I can't figure out how! |
| 20:13 |
|
Ropuch |
;> |
| 20:14 |
|
* rachel |
is quite hazy on how much work we'd be asking from hlt |
| 20:14 |
|
jransom |
i think we all are :) |
| 20:15 |
|
jransom |
ok - gotta go get ready forrwork (can't stay in my pjs all day !) |
| 20:15 |
|
owen |
pjs++ |
| 20:15 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
well, I think a potential structure is that they hold the assets, and we have a subcommittee that decides where to go |
| 20:15 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
community wise |
| 20:15 |
|
chris |
yeah i need to eat something and go to work shortly |
| 20:15 |
|
jransom |
yep |
| 20:15 |
|
rachel |
ie i'd have thought not much |
| 20:15 |
|
jransom |
and make the approach to ask for assets |
| 20:15 |
|
thd |
chris: how much is missing from logbot? |
| 20:15 |
|
Ropuch |
slef: the last 3 question can't be counted anyway - there are only 4 people who naswerd tehm |
| 20:15 |
|
jransom |
in safekeeping for interim |
| 20:15 |
|
slef |
ok. I'm going to get dinner (late!) but will return here a few times this evening. |
| 20:16 |
|
gmcharlt |
thd: as it happens, there shouldn't be much more missing than a couple days |
| 20:16 |
|
owen |
thd: logbot was never comprehensive, always popping out for a bite to eat or something like that |
| 20:16 |
|
jransom |
how do i contact you slef? |
| 20:16 |
|
slef |
Ropuch: not counted as strongly. Wait until after it hits the lists. |
| 20:16 |
|
jransom |
don't know your email or name or who you are :) |
| 20:16 |
|
gmcharlt |
thd: between the old bot and the advent of the new one |
| 20:16 |
|
Ropuch |
slef: i forgot to add "so far" ;> |
| 20:16 |
|
slef |
jransom: see msg |
| 20:16 |
|
jransom |
smiles |
| 20:16 |
|
chris |
thd: yeah its all in logbot_backup (The past logs from logbot) |
| 20:17 |
|
chris |
but logbot hasnt been here for weeks now |
| 20:17 |
|
chris |
so logbot_backup has all the history |
| 20:17 |
|
chris |
is that what you were asking? |
| 20:17 |
|
* brendan |
gets a chance to read back now -- will post any comments to the wiki :) |
| 20:18 |
|
jransom |
thanks everyone |
| 20:18 |
|
|
vickiteal left #koha |
| 20:18 |
|
chris |
yes thank you all, it was neat to have such a wide range of ppl from all over the world |
| 20:18 |
|
ricardo |
Back to LibLime's KSF (sorry): does anyone still have some form of "open informal communication channel" to them (LibLime) in order to ask them about its charter / statutes? |
| 20:19 |
|
chris_n |
perhaps one of their paying customers might |
| 20:19 |
|
thd |
chris: What is tajoli? |
| 20:19 |
|
chris |
eh? |
| 20:19 |
|
chris |
tajoli is a person |
| 20:19 |
|
owen |
ricardo: You could always try jmfliblime.com |
| 20:19 |
|
chris |
zeno tajoli :) |
| 20:20 |
|
thd |
oh a username |
| 20:20 |
|
ricardo |
chris_n: It might, yes |
| 20:20 |
|
paul_p2 |
ricardo: last time I asked joshua, I got something like "you've badly hurt me, I don't think I can trust you anymore, so I don't want to give any assets to KSF" |
| 20:20 |
|
chris_n |
"open" is the operative word here |
| 20:20 |
|
slef |
anyone want to try phoning him now? |
| 20:20 |
|
|
paul_p2 is now known as paul_p |
| 20:20 |
|
sekjal |
I've got a good relationship with the librarians at my institution's sister school; they're LibLime customers |
| 20:21 |
|
sekjal |
roundabout, though |
| 20:21 |
|
chris_n |
slef:I think that would be a job for whatever entity we end up under to do |
| 20:21 |
|
thd |
sorry tajoli I thought that your name was an IRC abbreviation for a moment. |
| 20:21 |
|
ricardo |
owen: Right... Bob Birchall from Calyx sent Joshua an e-mail (CCed to the Koha Mailing List), regarding "LibLime Enterprise Koha" (as you may have noticed). Let's see if Joshua answers that one |
| 20:22 |
|
owen |
I know that there has been no formal mention of the KSF by LibLime to its customers. |
| 20:22 |
|
|
Colin left #koha |
| 20:22 |
|
ricardo |
owen: OK. Thanks for the info |
| 20:22 |
|
|
Colin_ is now known as Colin |
| 20:22 |
|
slef |
chris_n: what? phoning him? |
| 20:24 |
|
tajoli |
No problem. I use quite often my surname as nikname |
| 20:24 |
|
owen |
It remains to be seen what kind of collision "our Koha foundation" will have with "Liblime's Koha foundation" |
| 20:24 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
probably the only way to get our assets will be to convince them it was their idea to give them up |
| 20:24 |
|
jdavidb |
wizzyrea++ |
| 20:24 |
|
slef |
owen: it probably won't be worse than SPI and the initial OSI |
| 20:25 |
|
* sekjal |
just got Pragmatic Version Control Using Git from acquisitions |
| 20:25 |
|
ricardo |
owen++ |
| 20:25 |
|
Ropuch |
sekjal: ;> |
| 20:26 |
|
ricardo |
wizzyrea: Who knows... That might even be true in a sense (maybe LibLime is thinking about turning those assets to "their" KSF... and that may, in time, become "everyone's" KSF. Let's hope) |
| 20:26 |
|
gmcharlt |
sekjal: just remember to let real patrons get their hands on it eventually ;) |
| 20:27 |
|
* owen |
suspects gmcharlt has seen the bookshelf in his office |
| 20:28 |
|
sekjal |
gmcharlt: nope, its totally mine. we're a medical library, so I don't think I'll be doing anyone a disservice |
| 20:28 |
|
ricardo |
sekjal: LOL |
| 20:28 |
|
owen |
Thanks everyone for a lively meeting. Quittin' time for me. |
| 20:28 |
|
|
owen left #koha |
| 20:28 |
|
chris |
surgery via git |
| 20:28 |
|
chris |
oh no, we have a bleeder |
| 20:29 |
|
chris |
git checkout -b bleeding_artery |
| 20:29 |
|
slef |
chris: you lop off your leg repeatedly, but can revert it? |
| 20:29 |
|
paul_p |
bye everybody, time to go to bed for me (10:30PM in continental Europe) |
| 20:29 |
|
chris |
git reset HEAD^ |
| 20:29 |
|
chris |
:) |
| 20:29 |
|
* gmcharlt |
shudders to imagine what a merge would look like |
| 20:29 |
|
chris |
lol |
| 20:29 |
|
rachel |
bye paul |
| 20:29 |
|
magnusenger |
git rebase HEAD --onto new_body |
| 20:29 |
|
chris |
ok i need to go get ready for work |
| 20:29 |
|
chris_n |
chris: lol |
| 20:29 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
lolnerds |
| 20:29 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
love it |
| 20:29 |
|
chris |
thanks all |
| 20:29 |
|
sekjal |
thanks, chris! |
| 20:30 |
|
slef |
gmcharlt: #include <joke/merge-branch-fork-child> |
| 20:30 |
|
tajoli |
Bye Bye |
| 20:30 |
|
cait |
time to go to bed - good night and have a nice day! |
| 20:31 |
|
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| 20:31 |
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| 20:31 |
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| 20:32 |
|
ricardo |
OK. I guess I'll leave now, as well. Take care anyone and congrats for organizing a great meeting! :) |
| 20:32 |
|
|
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| 20:32 |
|
ricardo |
s/anyone/everyone |
| 20:32 |
|
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ricardo left #koha |
| 20:32 |
|
Colin |
Bye all |
| 20:33 |
|
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Colin left #koha |
| 20:33 |
|
jwagner |
Bye everyone. |
| 20:33 |
|
jdavidb |
take care, all. |
| 20:33 |
|
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| 20:33 |
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| 20:34 |
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| 20:34 |
|
rosab |
bye all |
| 20:34 |
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| 20:35 |
|
mason |
cya sweetie |
| 20:35 |
|
rachel |
hey mason |
| 20:37 |
|
mason |
heya rach |
| 20:38 |
|
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| 20:38 |
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| 20:42 |
|
chris |
hi saschel, just missed the meeting |
| 20:42 |
|
saschel |
yep, guessed so. hope it was fruitfull. sorry to hear about the problems |
| 20:42 |
|
chris |
i thought it was a good positive meeting |
| 20:43 |
|
chris |
it will all be written up on the wiki |
| 20:43 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
yea, it was very civil |
| 20:43 |
|
saschel |
can we see it archived somewhere |
| 20:43 |
|
chris |
yes |
| 20:43 |
|
saschel |
oh, ok wiki |
| 20:43 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
though, erm, the people who needed most to be here weren't |
| 20:43 |
|
Wizzyrea_ |
:P |
| 20:44 |
|
saschel |
OK. take care. Tnx for all your work. |
| 20:44 |
|
chris |
190 days and counting |
| 20:44 |
|
chris |
thank you saschel |
| 20:44 |
|
chris |
will be needing some translations shortly |
| 20:44 |
|
|
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| 20:44 |
|
chris |
for the poll, ill email the koha-translate list |
| 20:44 |
|
chris |
too fast |
| 20:44 |
|
sekjal |
wiki-ing it up now |
| 20:44 |
|
chris |
sekjal++ |
| 20:45 |
|
magnusenger |
sekjal++ |
| 20:45 |
|
sekjal |
don't increment me until you see it; I've note used this wiki's syntax much before |
| 20:45 |
|
chris |
ok back later |
| 20:46 |
|
|
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| 20:47 |
|
* rachel |
goes to get day underway |
| 20:53 |
|
thd |
slef: are you still there? |
| 20:53 |
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| 21:16 |
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| 21:16 |
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| 21:17 |
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| 21:20 |
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| 21:23 |
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| 21:30 |
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| 21:37 |
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| 21:41 |
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| 21:41 |
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| 21:45 |
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| 21:46 |
|
chris |
back |
| 21:46 |
|
Joann |
http://www.libraryjournal.com/[…]t/1050048905.html |
| 21:46 |
|
Joann |
Roy Tennant on Koha and Liblime |
| 21:48 |
|
chris |
and joshua has emailed the list |
| 21:49 |
|
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| 21:49 |
|
Joann |
yep |
| 21:49 |
|
Joann |
Marshall Breeding and Roy Tennant both carry lots of influence ... I guess Joshua needed to respond positively, and quickly, to start damage control |
| 21:50 |
|
chris |
yeah |
| 21:50 |
|
|
nahuel joined #koha |
| 21:51 |
|
Joann |
thanks everyone who has made notes, transcripts, polls etc from this morning. |
| 21:51 |
|
chris_n2 |
words, words, and more wrods.... action is what is wanting here |
| 21:52 |
|
chris_n2 |
LL needs to produce more than talk at this point to salvage their FOSS reputation imho |
| 21:52 |
|
chris |
i just said that |
| 21:52 |
|
chris |
i said "make your repo public then" |
| 21:54 |
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|
Wizzyrea_ joined #koha |
| 21:55 |
|
chris |
id love to bury the pr in calls for make the code public |
| 21:56 |
|
chris_n2 |
chris++ |
| 21:56 |
|
Ropuch |
;> |
| 21:56 |
|
* chris |
starts the ball rolling |
| 21:56 |
|
chris |
well kyle did really |
| 21:57 |
|
|
dpavlin left #koha |
| 22:00 |
|
Ropuch |
chris: I'm curious about an answer from Joshua ;> |
| 22:02 |
|
|
nahuel left #koha |
| 22:03 |
|
chris |
i suspect silence would be the answer |
| 22:03 |
|
Joann |
i like the idea of 65 people requesting him to make his Git repository public :) |
| 22:03 |
|
Ropuch |
Me too :) |
| 22:03 |
|
Joann |
off to write a reply |
| 22:03 |
|
chris |
like i say, its 20 mins work |
| 22:04 |
|
|
nahuel joined #koha |
| 22:04 |
|
chris |
if it really is just a process change, why would that be a blocker |
| 22:04 |
|
Ropuch |
Well, let's give him 24h |
| 22:04 |
|
|
sh left #koha |
| 22:04 |
|
gmcharlt |
Ropuch: no reason not to echo chris' call for a public git repo now |
| 22:05 |
|
chris |
yeah let make its clear its not just me |
| 22:05 |
|
chris |
since its easy to just ignore one person |
| 22:06 |
|
chris |
he has practice ignoring me |
| 22:06 |
|
chris |
:) |
| 22:08 |
|
rhcl |
Good job on the meeting notes I think. |
| 22:08 |
|
|
Wizzyrea_ left #koha |
| 22:09 |
|
* chris_n2 |
adds his $0.02 worth |
| 22:10 |
|
thd |
chris: what are we considering assigning to HLT for at least an interim stage? |
| 22:11 |
|
chris |
the management of the .koha.org name |
| 22:11 |
|
thd |
Only LibLime could assign that. |
| 22:12 |
|
chris |
yes |
| 22:12 |
|
thd |
only they could assign it effectively. |
| 22:12 |
|
chris |
but HLT is one organisation that would be well situated to ask |
| 22:12 |
|
chris |
and probably be refused |
| 22:12 |
|
chris |
but i would love to be wrong |
| 22:12 |
|
Ropuch |
Ok, so I'll ask Joshua for public repo too |
| 22:12 |
|
thd |
or ignored |
| 22:13 |
|
chris |
cool Ropuch |
| 22:13 |
|
richard |
liblime just need to see that it will be in their interest to do so |
| 22:14 |
|
richard |
i think it is in their interest to do it |
| 22:14 |
|
thd |
chris: I assume that those holding trademarks would also be invited to assign the trademarks. |
| 22:14 |
|
chris |
yep |
| 22:15 |
|
* chris |
is of course only speaking for himself |
| 22:17 |
|
chris |
but thats what i would want the trust to hold in trust for the community |
| 22:18 |
|
Joann |
HLT would be happy to do that I am certain |
| 22:18 |
|
thd |
chris: Is there a presumption that people would be expected to assign copyrights even at the interim stage? |
| 22:19 |
|
chris |
nope |
| 22:19 |
|
chris |
i see copyright as a much less important issue when the code is GPL |
| 22:19 |
|
thd |
Of course. |
| 22:19 |
|
chris |
but people sure could if they wanted |
| 22:20 |
|
chris |
Ropuch: your reply only went to me |
| 22:20 |
|
chris |
was that intentional? |
| 22:21 |
|
Ropuch |
chris: nope, I'll resent it righ away |
| 22:21 |
|
thd |
Do you think that any developer could have ever been confused by the about link in the staff client which has no invoking clause but merely points to the license? |
| 22:21 |
|
chris |
maybe but the code itself says it is GPL |
| 22:21 |
|
chris |
people get confused by all sorts of things :) |
| 22:22 |
|
thd |
The link also points to GPL. |
| 22:22 |
|
thd |
The link however points to GPL 2 without at an "or later version (at your option)" invocation. |
| 22:23 |
|
chris |
ahh |
| 22:23 |
|
chris |
well the code itself has the or later |
| 22:23 |
|
chris |
we should fix that link |
| 22:23 |
|
chris |
is it the about page? |
| 22:23 |
|
chris |
you could send a patch, or if you dont have time, i can |
| 22:23 |
|
thd |
about : licences |
| 22:24 |
|
thd |
You know better than I where to find the correct file to patch. |
| 22:24 |
|
chris |
will do |
| 22:24 |
|
chris |
about.tmpl btw :) |
| 22:25 |
|
chris |
will send one today |
| 22:25 |
|
* thd |
has never modified the templates directly |
| 22:26 |
|
* thd |
has only modified the code which feeds the templates |
| 22:27 |
|
Ropuch |
Guess it;s my time - good night #koha |
| 22:28 |
|
chris |
good night Ropuch |
| 22:28 |
|
chris |
thanks for coming along to the meeting |
| 22:28 |
|
chris |
ps: the polish .po files have been updated ready for 3.0.4 if you want to do some translation :) |
| 22:28 |
|
Ropuch |
Sure |
| 22:29 |
|
thd |
I think that the point slef made on the mailing list in relation to the about : license is that taking that statement which links without qualification and combining it with those files which have no licensing header could give a less flexible interpretation. |
| 22:29 |
|
thd |
... to the options. |
| 22:29 |
|
Ropuch |
I'm cleaning 3 |
| 22:29 |
|
|
nahuel left #koha |
| 22:29 |
|
Ropuch |
.po file at the moment, but I'm kinda sleepy |
| 22:29 |
|
chris |
it could, but only if you took those files out and didnt use them with the rest of koha |
| 22:30 |
|
chris |
C4::Context is most definitely GPL2 or later |
| 22:30 |
|
chris |
and everything uses it |
| 22:30 |
|
chris |
you could of course take a file and make the case you didnt think it was gpl2 or later, but it couldnt use C4::Context |
| 22:30 |
|
chris |
anyway, ill fix the about page |
| 22:31 |
|
rhcl |
did I miss something? Piotr Wejman said in an email that the LL git will be opened. |
| 22:31 |
|
thd |
Obviously, about : licences is what the user will see when treating the code files as the scary stuff that only programmers want to see. |
| 22:32 |
|
chris |
yep |
| 22:32 |
|
chris |
rhcl: well if it is just a process not philosophical change, then surely they will be |
| 22:32 |
|
gmcharlt |
rhcl: I think that's actually more a request for LL to do same, just phrased hopefully |
| 22:33 |
|
rhcl |
Yea, I was wondering if the wording wasnt' intended to be a request, but it makes for a presumed conclusion. :) |
| 22:33 |
|
chris |
its actually quite a nice way to state it IMO :) |
| 22:33 |
|
rhcl |
eya |
| 22:33 |
|
rhcl |
yea |
| 22:34 |
|
chris |
poland++ |
| 22:34 |
|
Ropuch |
Hm, List manipulating confirmations are hardcoded into opac-shelves.tmpl |
| 22:36 |
|
thd |
chris: Much as I would like it to be true, I think that your argument about C4:Context invokes with or later is insufficient. |
| 22:36 |
|
Ropuch |
Oh, nevermind, I'll check it on bugzilla tomorrow |
| 22:36 |
|
Ropuch |
g'night |
| 22:36 |
|
chris |
im not sure why this is an issue, are you aware of someone distributed Koha in violation of the GPL2 ? |
| 22:36 |
|
rhcl |
I need to go forage for food... LTR |
| 22:36 |
|
|
rhcl is now known as rhcl_away |
| 22:37 |
|
thd |
chris: No no, only I want to be clear that there is nothing to close off upgrading options. |
| 22:37 |
|
chris |
ah |
| 22:37 |
|
chris |
phew |
| 22:37 |
|
chris |
i was starting to panic |
| 22:37 |
|
thd |
chris: slef has merely cast possible doubt |
| 22:37 |
|
chris |
slef hates agpl |
| 22:37 |
|
chris |
:) |
| 22:38 |
|
thd |
slef is also excellent at finding little problems |
| 22:38 |
|
chris |
yep, im undecided about agpl myself, i could be swayed either way |
| 22:38 |
|
chris |
lets see if liblime backs up their talk with action |
| 22:39 |
|
thd |
I will answer each of slef's objections on the list. |
| 22:39 |
|
chris |
cool |
| 22:39 |
|
chris |
thank you thd |
| 22:39 |
|
chris |
your well thought out emails are always appreciated |
| 22:39 |
|
thd |
the only one that gives me pause in the possibility that there has been a GPL 2 only commit. |
| 22:39 |
|
chris |
not sure if people tell you that enough |
| 22:40 |
|
chris |
not that im aware of, if we find one we can ask it to be relincesed i guess |
| 22:40 |
|
thd |
chris: Mostly I have the impression that they are simply ignored on grounds of their being too long. |
| 22:40 |
|
chris |
i read them all, and appreciate the time and thought that has gone into them |
| 22:40 |
|
thd |
s/too long/too long to sustain attention/ |
| 22:41 |
|
* chris_n2 |
agrees w/chris concerning thd 's emails |
| 22:42 |
|
thd |
one thing I have been told is that by commenting at length I give the impression of ending the flow of discussion rather than giving something to discuss |
| 22:42 |
|
chris |
thd: >GNUGeneral Public License, version 2 or later</a> that ok? |
| 22:42 |
|
chris |
(i added the or later bit) |
| 22:43 |
|
thd |
You should use the formal language. |
| 22:43 |
|
chris |
can you give me some, and ill cut and paste :) |
| 22:43 |
|
thd |
It is in most Koha files in the header. |
| 22:43 |
|
gmcharlt |
or straight fron the FSF |
| 22:44 |
|
chris |
oh take the whole paragraph? |
| 22:44 |
|
chris |
# Koha is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the |
| 22:44 |
|
chris |
# terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software |
| 22:44 |
|
chris |
# Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later |
| 22:44 |
|
chris |
# version. |
| 22:44 |
|
chris |
that bit? |
| 22:44 |
|
gmcharlt |
yep |
| 22:45 |
|
* chris |
is sorry he is so slow this morning, early wake up and not enough coffee |
| 22:45 |
|
chris |
will do |
| 22:45 |
|
thd |
This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify |
| 22:45 |
|
thd |
it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by |
| 22:45 |
|
thd |
the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or |
| 22:45 |
|
thd |
(at your option) any later version. |
| 22:45 |
|
chris |
thanks |
| 22:45 |
|
thd |
That language is actually at the end of the linked license. |
| 22:46 |
|
thd |
However, if you do not invoke that language then it should not be necessarily understood to apply. |
| 22:47 |
|
chris |
patch on it's way |
| 22:47 |
|
thd |
I would like to win over slef before really advocating AGPL 3 as a decision the project should take. |
| 22:47 |
|
thd |
Maybe slef will change my mind. |
| 22:48 |
|
chris |
respectful discussion is always good |
| 22:50 |
|
|
hdl_laptop left #koha |
| 22:52 |
|
thd |
chris: The reason which I think that your argument about C4::Context is insufficient is that the license offered is still GPL 2 and anyone could then add a GPL 2 only patch such that the work as whole which included such a patch would be limited to GPL 2. |
| 22:52 |
|
chris_n2 |
here is an interesting summary of licenses included in koha: http://www.ohloh.net/p/koha/analyses/latest |
| 22:53 |
|
thd |
The option of your choice would have then been exercised by the modifier to limit downstream choice including that modification. |
| 22:55 |
|
thd |
Similarly, the modifier could choose GPL 3 as long as there are no GPL 2 only commits making the work as a whole including the modification GPL 3 and removing GPL 2 as a choice for the user. |
| 22:56 |
|
thd |
The user would always be able to remove the limiting modifications and exercise whatever license choices would be available without the limiting modifications. |
| 22:57 |
|
chris |
true |
| 22:58 |
|
thd |
chris: Which code uses the 4 clause BSD license, labeled BSD copyright in your link? |
| 22:58 |
|
chris |
that was chris_n |
| 22:58 |
|
chris |
and a grep should tell us |
| 22:59 |
|
|
davi left #koha |
| 23:00 |
|
gmcharlt |
almost certainly it's one of the JS libraries |
| 23:00 |
|
thd |
gmcharlt: http://www.fsf.org/licensing/l[…]ompatibleLicenses |
| 23:01 |
|
thd |
the 4 clause BSD license, the one with the advertising clause has never been GPL compatible. |
| 23:02 |
|
chris |
it could be one of the icon sets too |
| 23:02 |
|
thd |
The advertising clause means that you have to name all the copyright holders in even a print ad in a journal. |
| 23:03 |
|
|
ianB left #koha |
| 23:03 |
|
thd |
there is also the 3 clause newer BSD license. |
| 23:03 |
|
|
lamiette left #koha |
| 23:04 |
|
thd |
Hardly anyone uses the 4 clause BSD license anymore so I am hoping that it is a mistake. |
| 23:04 |
|
* gmcharlt |
wishes ohloh.net would point to the files it thinks are 4-clause BSD |
| 23:04 |
|
chris |
yeah would make life easier |
| 23:04 |
|
gmcharlt |
I mean, it could easily get it wrong |
| 23:05 |
|
gmcharlt |
YUI copyright says |
| 23:05 |
|
gmcharlt |
Copyright (c) 2008, Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. |
| 23:05 |
|
gmcharlt |
Code licensed under the BSD License: |
| 23:05 |
|
gmcharlt |
http://developer.yahoo.net/yui/license.txt |
| 23:05 |
|
gmcharlt |
if you chase link, you get to the 3-clause BSD |
| 23:05 |
|
chris |
yep |
| 23:07 |
|
thd |
I think that the 4 clause license has been successfully eradicated from BSD distributions by rewriting code if the copyright holder could not be found to change the license. |
| 23:11 |
|
* thd |
imagines the headline, "Koha developers forced to take back code for failing to follow the terms of the original BSD license dependencies". |
| 23:13 |
|
chris |
hehe |
| 23:14 |
|
chris |
i cant find it |
| 23:14 |
|
chris |
not with ack anyway |
| 23:16 |
|
chris |
yui, or jquery are the only 2 that mention BSD |
| 23:16 |
|
chris |
and they are both not the old 4 clause |
| 23:16 |
|
chris |
jquery is multi licensed in fact |
| 23:26 |
|
thd |
yes, I can imagine that some multi-license code might have neglected to consider the newer BSD license. |
| 23:26 |
|
* chris_n2 |
knows of at least one FOSS project that forked and re-wrote the entire code base in order to re-license.... :-P |
| 23:27 |
|
thd |
Anything I have traced so far ends in a 3 clause license. |
| 23:28 |
|
thd |
The trouble as Richard Stallman likes to identify that merely refering to the BSD license without being specific is ambiguous when both the 3 and 4 clause license are named the BSD license. |
| 23:29 |
|
thd |
The 3 clause license was not issued with the name BSD 2 or BSD 3 clause. |
| 23:30 |
|
chris_n2 |
fwiw, it appears that US law treats a domain name as a trademark with reference to disputes of ownership |
| 23:31 |
|
thd |
ICAN treats the issue that way. |
| 23:31 |
|
thd |
chris_n2: The US owns the internet of course :) |
| 23:32 |
|
chris_n2 |
thd: lol :-O |
| 23:32 |
|
chris_n2 |
and Al Gore invented it.... right? |
| 23:32 |
|
chris_n2 |
of course that means that the entity that holds the US trademark rights to 'Koha' also holds the domain rights to 'koha.what-ever' |
| 23:33 |
|
chris_n2 |
effectively |
| 23:33 |
|
thd |
chris_n2: I saw something in my blog reader a few days ago about plans for the US government to take control of the internet in a national emergency. |
| 23:33 |
|
chris_n2 |
let's not go there... here at least... >:-( |
| 23:34 |
|
chris_n2 |
"national emergency" appears to be very loosely defined these days |
| 23:34 |
|
thd |
chris_n2: ICAN policy has allowed trademark holders to obtain control of domains by asserting trademark rights. |
| 23:35 |
|
thd |
chris_n2: The original policy had been a stake your claim and keep it forever approach. |
| 23:35 |
|
chris_n2 |
thd: I think they require subscription to a "dispute resolution procedure" when you register a domain |
| 23:36 |
|
thd |
chris_n2: Fortunately, I seldom read those documents. |
| 23:38 |
|
thd |
chris_n2: originally someone without any claim to the name could register mcdonalds.com before a company such as McDonald's had noticed the internet and then hold the late company to ransom. |
| 23:39 |
|
chris_n2 |
I fully support the idea that an entity ought to own rights to a domain name clearly identified with their trademark |
| 23:40 |
|
thd |
yes, domain squatting did not serve any good purpose for society as a whole. |
| 23:41 |
|
thd |
The trouble is that trademark holders can also wrestle a domain away from those with a legitimate interest in a name but no trademark. |
| 23:42 |
|
thd |
It costs too much for most people to defend against a large interest with lawyers. |
| 23:42 |
|
chris_n2 |
and that is the crux of the matter really |
| 23:42 |
|
chris_n2 |
$$$$ |
| 23:43 |
|
* chris_n2 |
finds it interesting that Koha has some 31,035 lines of comments in perl scripts according to ohloh's calculations |
| 23:44 |
|
chris_n2 |
and 26,219 blank lines in perl scripts |
| 23:44 |
|
thd |
white space is very important |
| 23:44 |
|
thd |
white space can be as important as comments |
| 23:45 |
|
gmcharlt |
even if you're not writing in python ;) |
| 23:45 |
|
* chris_n2 |
imagines debugging compressed perl |
| 23:45 |
|
|
nahuel joined #koha |
| 23:46 |
|
chris_n2 |
and runs out of the room screaming |
| 23:46 |
|
chris |
heh |
| 23:46 |
|
thd |
gmcharlt: Does python ever intend to fix that problem? |
| 23:46 |
|
thd |
s/python/Guido/ |
| 23:47 |
|
|
thd is now known as thd-foraging |
| 23:47 |
|
chris |
i dont think they see it as a problem |
| 23:47 |
|
gmcharlt |
yeah, pretty sure it's by Guido's design |
| 23:48 |
|
thd-foraging |
required indentation certainly helps code readability. |
| 23:50 |
|
gmcharlt |
indeed |
| 23:56 |
|
|
nahuel left #koha |
