IRC log for #koha, 2009-09-15

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
00:04 Jo joined #koha
00:12 gmcharlt Obama's going to be in Philadelphia tomorrow - I wonder if he'll say anything about the situation
00:13 chris i hope so, it seems like a particularly stupid decision
00:14 gmcharlt dunno - many library directors I'm sure have felt tempted to close up shop entirely (or close branches, at any rate) when faced with funding cuts, rather than spread the pain around by cutting hours at all branches
00:14 gmcharlt either this gambit is going to work spectacularly well
00:14 chris oh i meant the funding cuts :)
00:14 gmcharlt or fall completely flat
00:15 gmcharlt right
00:15 chris yeah i hope its the former
00:15 chris it certainly has gotten a lot of press
00:15 chris and thats most likely a good thing
00:25 Jo hi guys
00:25 Jo and gals :)
00:25 chris heya Jo
00:30 gmcharlt hi Jo
00:41 gmcharlt chris: is t/db_dependent/VirtualShelves.t supposed to pass cleanly after your two patches, or do you have more to do?
00:49 gmcharlt in particular, re line 153 of the test case, since when does GetShelfContents return two results?
00:50 richard gmcharlt: i think he's getting his lunch
00:50 gmcharlt richard: ok
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00:59 gmcharlt @later tell chris OK, I'm skipping over those two patches for now; also, I suggest switching it to use Test::More to be consistent with all of the other test cases
00:59 munin` gmcharlt: The operation succeeded.
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01:24 gmcharlt @later tell pianohacker the three latest sysprefs patches (one from you and two from Owen) conflict - could you resolve the conflict and give me a clean branch to pull from?  thanks
01:24 munin` gmcharlt: The operation succeeded.
01:34 chris gmcharlt: more to do
02:07 schuster joined #koha
02:07 chris hi schuster
02:07 schuster Hey - everyones asleep in the house so I can see about getting some things done!
02:09 chris heh nice :)
02:09 chris i know the feeling
02:15 schuster OK so in going through some of the bugs for example 641 - dealing with renewal over ride limits - this is documented so I can Email Owen the originator and ask him to close it?
02:16 chris sure can
02:40 brendan ok night #koha
02:40 * brendan so tired :)
02:42 chris night brendan
02:53 schuster Does anyone know the status of 3.2 development inclusion?  Galen was building a list, but I've been in and out and don't know if it is completed yet for me to review.
02:53 gmcharlt schuster: it's still in flux
03:10 schuster OK I've been doing my "other" job around the office so havn't been keeping up directly with IRC.  thanks
03:13 chris @later tell hdl_laptop i have updated all the opac .po files in pootle and in my repo, please pull from my repo
03:13 munin` chris: The operation succeeded.
03:15 Amit joined #koha
03:15 Amit hi chris, brendan
03:15 Amit good morning #koha
03:15 chris hi Amit
03:16 Amit chris: can i ask one question
03:16 chris yep?
03:16 phasefx_ what is the meaning of life the universe and everything? :)
03:16 Amit which cricket player receive  the max no. man of the match
03:17 chris tendulkar
03:18 Amit yes ur right 59 times
03:18 Amit and also max no man of the series also 14 times
03:18 * richard detects a sachin fan :)
03:19 Amit hi richard
03:19 richard hi Amit
03:20 Amit chris: Delhi public library librarian giving the lecture on exp with koha in Delhi seminar which comes on 22-24 oct
03:20 chris excellent
03:21 chris do you think it will be videod?
03:22 Amit not
03:23 Amit but i can shoot video or snap ?
03:27 chris itd be nice to be able see it, or just read notes on it :)
03:27 Amit ok i will do it
03:31 chris thanks
03:32 schuster Goes to join the rest of the family in sleepy land...  night all
03:32 chris night
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06:19 kf good morning
06:20 magnusenger good morning
06:22 hdl_laptop hi
06:24 hdl_laptop chris : koha-maintenance updated
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06:52 fredericd morning
07:00 nahuel hi !
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07:06 chris hi fredericd and nahuel
07:06 nahuel hi chris
07:10 chris hows the code run going, drinking lots of coffee? :)
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07:22 Amit hi nahuel, frdericd
07:22 chris hdl_laptop: just push the last of the staff .po files
07:22 chris just pushed even
07:24 nahuel chris, not yesterday, but today I think we will !
07:26 chris :)
07:41 Ropuch Morning
07:42 chris hi Ropuch
07:42 nicomo_laptop joined #koha
07:43 Ropuch We've just moved 6k books from ground to 2nd floor
07:44 chris wow
07:49 Ropuch and the fun begins now
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08:00 hdl_laptop chris pushed
08:01 chris cool, i noticed a problem with italian .. so probably will get you to do another one later but we are getting there :)
08:02 chris hi ianB
08:04 ianB Hi Chris
08:05 ianB First time on IRC so keen to not mess up...
08:06 chris hehe we are pretty forgiving :-)
08:06 chris whereabouts are you from?
08:06 * chris is in nz
08:08 ianB phew!  I'm in the UK.  I'm with the same crowd as Colin Campbell, Jonathan Field & Nick Dimant at PTFS Europe near London.
08:09 ianB I have family in Hamilton and Christchurch NZ.  Only been there once, but it was wonderful.
08:11 chris ahh cool, i have family in Christchurch, im in Wellington
08:12 ianB I do mainly data conversion and migration projects here rather than development as such.  Did the motor-home tour of NZ but did not stop long in Wellington (caught the 6am ferry to South Island).
08:12 chris ahh cool, conversions are hard work
08:13 ianB Need to pop out for a bit.  Back later.  "normal" conversions are good fun.  acquisitions & serials can scramble the brain...
08:13 chris :)
08:14 Ropuch :)
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08:58 kf chris: I see new translation work in 3.0.x
09:00 chris yep, i updated the .po files today, getting ready for 3.0.4
09:00 chris shouldnt be too many changes
09:00 kf (243 untranslated, 166 fuzzy)
09:01 chris for staff?
09:01 kf yes
09:01 kf opac was easy
09:01 chris cool
09:02 kf update to about page is most of them
09:03 chris ahh right
09:07 Amit hi kf
09:07 chris kf:[…]oha.git;a=summary
09:08 kf hi Amit
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09:09 kf :D
09:09 snail am i right in thinking it's approximately 10 hours to the koha meeting?
09:10 chris yep bout that
09:10 chris 7am our time snail
09:10 snail cool. I'm hoping to make it for at least part of the meeting
09:10 chris cool
09:12 kf will be there too - but had no time to read the materials :(
09:36 snail my thoughts on the issue: http://opensourceexile.blogspo[…]ghts-on-koha.html
09:37 chris reading now
09:39 chris my current favourite is HLT, which is already a registered trust, and of course has a long history with Koha
09:41 kf I like that idea too, but not sure what changes this would mean
09:41 chris @later tell thd-away thanks for tidying up the public git repository page
09:41 munin` chris: The operation succeeded.
09:42 chris rosalie will be able to speak to that better than I, so ill leave that to her tomorrow
09:42 snail chris: i agree, but you and i are local cheerleaders
09:48 chris :)
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10:29 |Lupin| hi there
10:34 kf hi lupin
10:35 Ropuch Hello
10:36 kf chris: translation done ;)
10:40 |Lupin| guten morgen kf
10:40 kf guten morgen |Lupin|
10:40 |Lupin| I'm just trying to install zebra on a debian unstable
10:41 |Lupin| pparently there is a dependency problem: one of the packages depend on libicu36 which is not installable... does somebody know something about this, pls ?
10:49 nicomo_laptop1 left #koha
10:49 |Lupin| ah fixed it... had to add etch to the sources.list
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11:42 jdavidb @seen jwagner
11:42 munin` jdavidb: jwagner was last seen in #koha 16 hours, 52 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <jwagner> I'm lost already :-(
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11:44 collum Good morning all
11:44 jdavidb g'morning, collum.  :)
11:49 gmcharlt good morning
11:49 chris_n gmcharlt: g'morning
11:50 chris_n gmcharlt: splitting tests seem to run fine here
11:50 gmcharlt how are you running them, and with what version of Perl?
11:50 chris_n
11:51 chris_n 5.10.0
11:51 * chris_n does not know 'prove'
11:52 chris_n I'll try that
11:52 chris_n cnighswonger@cnighswonger-lt:~/koha.3.2.labels/t$ prove Labels_split_ddcn.t
11:52 chris_n Labels_split_ddcn....ok
11:52 chris_n All tests successful.
11:52 chris_n Files=1, Tests=34,  2 wallclock secs ( 0.65 cusr +  0.03 csys =  0.68 CPU)
11:52 chris_n perhaps the patch did not apply cleanly?
11:54 gmcharlt chris_n: what do you get when you run
11:54 gmcharlt perl -MC4::Labels::Label -e 'exit;'
11:54 chris_n cnighswonger@cnighswonger-lt:~/koha.3.2.labels/t$ perl -MC4::Labels::Label -e 'exit;'
11:54 chris_n cnighswonger@cnighswonger-lt:~/koha.3.2.labels/t$
11:55 gmcharlt and of
11:55 gmcharlt md5sum Labels_split_ddcn.t
11:55 gmcharlt ?
11:55 chris_n cnighswonger@cnighswonger-lt:~/koha.3.2.labels/t$ md5sum Labels_split_ddcn.t
11:55 chris_n 7f525252ad2f3e104190804bf376a796  Labels_split_ddcn.t
11:55 chris_n cnighswonger@cnighswonger-lt:~/koha.3.2.labels/t$
11:56 gmcharlt and when you run prove -v t/Labels_split_ddcn.t ?
11:57 chris_n
11:58 chris_n Monday weirdness on Tuesday perhaps :-)
11:59 gmcharlt chris_n: indeed -
12:00 gmcharlt difference is that for me it is counting the use_ok('C4::Labels::Label'') as the first test
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12:00 gmcharlt what do you get from
12:00 gmcharlt prove -V
12:01 chris_n cnighswonger@cnighswonger-lt:~/koha.3.2.labels$ prove -V
12:01 chris_n prove v2.64, using Test::Harness v2.64 and Perl v5.10.0
12:01 chris_n cnighswonger@cnighswonger-lt:~/koha.3.2.labels$
12:01 gmcharlt and I get
12:01 gmcharlt TAP::Harness v3.17 and Perl v5.10.0
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12:02 chris_n I'll update and rerun
12:04 chris_n gmcharlt:
12:04 chris_n very weird
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12:11 gmcharlt chris_n: what version of Test::More do you have installed?
12:12 gmcharlt I have 0.92
12:12 chris_n looks like 0.94
12:14 chris_n gmcharlt: reinstalled Test::More (0.94) and now get the same error you do
12:14 chris_n
12:15 chris_n it is a trivial fix
12:15 chris_n I'll resubmit, but it might break on other versions of Test::More etc.
12:15 gmcharlt s'ok - I care more about it break on newer versions of Test::More than on older
12:16 gmcharlt and I'll bump up the minimum required version of Test::More in the install doc
12:16 chris_n k
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12:19 jdavidb howdy, Owen! :)
12:19 owen Hi
12:26 gmcharlt hi owen
12:29 chris_n gmcharlt: new patch submitted
12:31 chris_n TAP::Parser still complains about the test plan not being declared at the start of the test, but this is not required by Test::More and probably indicates that TAP::Parser is not aware of this fact
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12:37 chris_n gmcharlt: disregard that; according to Test::Simple doc, the plan *does* have to be declared first
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12:38 gmcharlt chris_n: right
12:38 gmcharlt since the use_ok is in a BEGIN block
12:38 gmcharlt you could stick the calculcation of the test plan in the BEGIN block as well
12:38 gmcharlt before you run use_ok
12:39 chris_n gmcharlt: the tests run fine w/o the BEGIN block
12:39 chris_n any real reason for it?
12:40 gmcharlt POD for Test::More recommends sticking use_ok inside a BEGIN block
12:40 gmcharlt to ensure that functions are exported at compile-time
12:40 gmcharlt but if test passes w/o it, it is optional
12:41 chris_n I'll push the calcs into the BEGIN block to stay w/the documentation
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12:50 * chris_n thinks there's nothing like rebooting a PDC to wake everyone up
12:51 Ropuch Hm, I've closed a basket with wrong value by accident - is there a way to 'reopen' it?
12:54 owen gmcharlt: schuster has been going through old bugs looking for things to close, and he asked me about bug 1532
12:55 munin` Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=1532 blocker, P3, ---,, NEW, Port dev_week holds enhancements to 3.0
12:55 owen Do you know what the status of Kyle's patch is? Do you remember getting it?
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12:55 gmcharlt owen: no, I never got it
12:56 owen I'll email him
12:56 gmcharlt and see no sign of it on the december 2008 koha-patches archive
12:56 owen I guess there's no hurry, they wouldn't make it into 3.2
12:57 gmcharlt unlikely, I'll update the bug with a question to Kyle
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13:04 |Lupin| is there anything to configure to use Zebra, or is it supposed to work quite well out of the box ?
13:04 |Lupin| is there anything to configure to use Zebra, or is it supposed to work quite well out of the box ?
13:04 |Lupin| (sorry if the question was posted twice, we have network problems here seemingly)
13:04 owen gmcharlt: Is there a target date for the string freeze?
13:04 gmcharlt it should work OK out of the box
13:04 jdavidb It normally works just fine, |Lupin|, with the default config.
13:04 gmcharlt owen: not yet, but I don't see it happening before mid-October
13:05 owen Okay, that's good to know.
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13:05 paul_p2 hi gmcharlt & jdavidb & owen &chris_n and all US ppl (hi |Lupin| too)
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13:05 jdavidb Hi, paul! :)
13:05 gmcharlt hi paul_p2
13:06 paul_p2 is now known as paul_p
13:06 gmcharlt pushed your DB patch to the biblire acq branch
13:06 gmcharlt nice to see you submitting
13:06 paul_p yep, happy to submit too ;-)
13:06 |Lupin| owen gmcharlt: ok, thanks. Actually here it does not work. I get some warnings about indexes that are not found, when reunning rebuild_zebra -b -r. And OPAC searches don't give back any result so I assume there is some problem.
13:07 * chris_n greets paul_p
13:07 paul_p (although, with BibLibre growth, i'm afraid my patches will become more and more uncommon...)
13:08 |Lupin| should zebra have a database distinct from the Koha one ?
13:08 |Lupin| (I'm trying to switch from NoZebra to Zebra mode, btw)
13:09 owen paul_p: it's one of the hazards of running a successful business: less time to code!
13:09 paul_p yep. the fun part is that you do something else and ... code appears "magically" (well, when you pay your employee. Not really magic ;-) )
13:11 gmcharlt depends on your employees
13:11 gmcharlt if you hire elves, it really is by magic ;)
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13:14 kf :)
13:14 schuster I'm reading some of the items in the washk12 git repository - I'm curious how many of them will make it to the 3.2 release... for example -
13:14 schuster Sounds - i think I heard this is coming
13:14 gmcharlt sounds yes
13:15 * chris_n starts looking for elves
13:15 gmcharlt and I've been working on cherry-picking some of the others
13:15 brendan morning
13:15 chris_n hi brendan
13:15 brendan hey chris_n
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13:15 schuster How about this one? New tool: Add Copies To Record
13:16 |Lupin| anyone to help with Zebra ?
13:17 schuster This one is good too - Ed on the list commented about it - Add page in circ just for renewing
13:18 schuster They had this one as well - never could understand how fines - showed, but overdues didn't - New custom report: Overdues and Fines
13:18 schuster He also had the option to show out as a checkmark box.  I don't know how their coding looks, but they are doing loads of development that schools are interested in.
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13:23 jdavidb Hi, biglego. :)
13:24 biglego morning jdavidb
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13:27 chris_n gmcharlt: ok, final patch submitted for cn split tests, etc...
13:27 gmcharlt final patch?
13:27 * gmcharlt invites whole new classification scheme on the spot
13:27 gmcharlt *invents
13:30 chris_n gmcharlt: final in the sense that any patch is final ;-)
13:30 gmcharlt ;)
13:33 * chris_n was tempted to put the entire script inside the BEGIN block...
13:39 |Lupin| hmm zebrrasrv is running, the indexes should have been build, and still opac search does not give any result... any hint ?
13:40 |Lupin| 15:37:50-15/09 zebrasrv(1) [request] Init ERROR 1011 ID:81 Name:ZOOM-C/YAZ Version:3.0.47 91a6395012ede2909078cdedea29a8d9efe60229
13:41 |Lupin| (in the logs of the daemon...)
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13:51 jdavidb Okay...someone who's good at array-passing, got a sec?
13:52 |Lupin| jdavidb: hmm ?
13:52 jdavidb Thanks, |Lupin|.  I've got an array of biblio numbers, referred to by $arrayref1.  I can Dumper($arrayref1) and see my array, so it's good so far.
13:53 jdavidb I'm trying to feed that array into C4::Search::searchResults.  The only other call of that has a hairy construct for that: @{$results_hashref->{$server}->{"RECORDS"}}
13:53 Ropuch |Lupin|:[…]ugust/000296.html
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13:54 jdavidb I've tried about every shape and size I can think of to pass that array into searchResults, but don't get anything back.  @{$arrayref1}, $arrayref1, \$arrayref1...what's amiss here?
13:54 Ropuch |Lupin|: maybe this will help (if you haven't read this already)
13:55 |Lupin| Ropuch: I'l have a look to it, thanks !
13:56 |Lupin| jdavidb: this is far beyond my perl skills, sorry
13:56 |Lupin| jdavidb: however, perhaps you may try a use diagnostics pragma
13:56 |Lupin| jdavidb: perhaps Perl ill give you some hints about how to do ?
13:56 jdavidb Hrm.  Gonna set some breadcrumbs out with diagnostics...bound be losing it somewhere along the way.
13:59 |Lupin| I'm wondering...
13:59 |Lupin| what is the koha system used for ?
14:00 |Lupin| is this related to zebra somehow ?
14:02 Colin jdavidb: Isn't it an array of records rather than biblio numbers?
14:03 jdavidb Well, I *thought* that searchResults was wanting biblionumbers, but that seems to not be the case, Colin.   Hrrmph.
14:03 Ropuch |Lupin|: I don't think I understand your last two questions ;>
14:03 jdavidb Of course...the answer is *never* easy..
14:04 Ropuch Once I get through perl tutorial for beginners... ;>
14:05 jdavidb Argh!  searchResults wants MARC records?     :P  *gag*
14:06 |Lupin| jdavidb: yeah that's possible actually... or references to them...
14:06 * jdavidb peers quizzically at C4::Search::searchResults
14:06 jdavidb Colin++   #sure 'nuf.  That's the tip I needed.
14:06 |Lupin| Ropuch: well...
14:07 |Lupin| Ropuch: usually I installKOha in NoZebra mode.
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14:07 |Lupin| Ropuch: this time I answered yes when I was asked whether the installer should create a configuration file for Zebra.
14:08 Ropuch |Lupin|: I can't live without zebra now [;
14:08 |Lupin| Ropuch: and then I was asked several questions I'm not asked usally, among which a koha user... so I was wondering where it is used, whether I did something wrong at that level...
14:08 Ropuch I used to skip zebra because, too
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14:09 Ropuch I just keep pressing enter during intsall
14:09 Ropuch *install
14:09 |Lupin| Ropuch: any idea how I could fix the problem ?
14:09 |Lupin| Ropuch: yes ? and do you have a koha system user, or not ?
14:09 Ropuch I have
14:10 Ropuch I've just followed some howto for ubuntu 8.10
14:10 Ropuch (except for installing modules via cpan, because i've found them in repo)
14:10 |Lupin| Ropuch: so did I
14:10 Ropuch And everething seems to be working just fine
14:11 Ropuch I have libyaz3 ver 3.00.48 if this would help
14:11 jwagner gmcharlt and others, re my question yesterday about linking to SFX, I've got it working (I think) for ISSN.  I'm thinking about making this a generic patch, but would appreciate some input.  See Bug 3634 for my notes.
14:11 munin` Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3634 enhancement, P5, ---,, NEW, Adding OpenURL link to XSLT ISSN/ISBN
14:13 owen jwagner: I'm not sure I understand what the goal is, but would this be a use for Nicole's recent patch to customize the "search for this title in..." links?
14:13 jwagner Might be -- I haven't looked closely at what she's done.  Does it specifically pass ISxN as a search parameter?
14:17 jwagner I see the syspref says you can use {TITLE}, {AUTHOR}, or {ISBN} -- it would need to have ISSN as well.  Need to talk to Nicole on that one....
14:17 owen ISBN yes, but I'm not sure about ISSN
14:18 owen It's the OPACSearchForTitleIn preference.
14:21 jwagner Looking at the code, it might be possible to add ISSN.  The problem would be distinguishing if the particular record being displayed has an ISBN/ISSN.  Have to think about it.
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14:37 |Lupin| hmm
14:37 |Lupin| I'm confused
14:37 |Lupin| when connecting to zebra
14:37 |Lupin| for the auth command
14:37 |Lupin| which login and password should be given ?
14:37 |Lupin| those of the db ? those of the system user ? what ?
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14:39 nahuel |Lupin|, to zebra ?
14:39 nahuel you shouldn't need any login/password to make some requests
14:39 |Lupin| nahuel: yes, to the biblio socket, with yaz-client...
14:40 |Lupin| nahuel: ok
14:40 nahuel so you don't need any login / pwd
14:40 |Lupin| nahuel: I was following[…]August/000296.hml
14:40 nahuel yaz-client unix://path/to/socket
14:40 nahuel then
14:40 nahuel base biblios
14:40 |Lupin| nahuel: the problem is my zebra does not work and I don't know why
14:40 nahuel and then you can query it
14:41 |Lupin| nahuel: ok
14:41 |Lupin| nahuel: my problem is that in KOha the searches do not pwork
14:41 nahuel so if you cannot connect to the socket
14:42 |Lupin| nahuel: koha says No result
14:42 nahuel did you watched zebra logs ?
14:42 |Lupin| nahuel: yes
14:42 |Lupin| nahuel: I posted the error message here earlier
14:42 |Lupin| nahuel: give me a second to reproduce the situation and I'll resend it
14:43 nahuel |Lupin|, did you do a -r -b -x ?
14:43 |Lupin| 16:42:55-15/09 zebrasrv(4) [request] Auth idPass braillenet_admin -
14:44 |Lupin| 16:42:55-15/09 zebrasrv(4) [request] Init ERROR 1011 ID:81 Name:ZOOM-C/YAZ Version:3.0.47 91a6395012ede2909078cdedea29a8d9efe60229
14:44 |Lupin| nahuel: I didn't use the -x...
14:44 nahuel ok
14:45 nahuel but you rebuild ?
14:45 nahuel -r -b ?
14:45 |Lupin| nahuel: I don't know wht there is a braillenet_admin appearing in the logs, I guess I entered this as a zebra user and I shold not have done so...
14:45 nahuel aaaah
14:45 |Lupin| nahuel: yes I rebuilt
14:46 chris_n |Lupin|: who owns var/lock/zebradb?
14:46 |Lupin| nahuel: I got some warnings about indexes which were not found...
14:46 nahuel chris_n, it's not a right problem
14:46 nahuel I have an idea
14:46 nahuel 2s
14:46 |Lupin| nahuel: sure, thanks !
14:47 nahuel |Lupin|, can you copypaste your koha-conf in pastebin ?
14:47 nahuel (hiding your passwords)
14:47 |Lupin| nahuel: sure
14:48 |Lupin| nahuel: give me just one second
14:48 nahuel yep i'm not hurried
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14:49 |Lupin| nahuel:
14:51 nahuel so you should verify
14:51 nahuel that the content of tag
14:51 nahuel #
14:51 nahuel serverinfo id="authorityserver">
14:51 nahuel and
14:51 nahuel #
14:51 nahuel <serverinfo id="biblioserver">
14:52 nahuel for "user" and "password"
14:52 nahuel that match with the content of etc/zebradb/etc/passwd
14:52 nahuel and etc/zebradb/explain-biblios.xml
14:52 nahuel and etc/zebradb/explain-authorities.xml
14:52 nahuel :)
14:52 |Lupin| wow...
14:55 nahuel |Lupin|, I think you have the passwords that doesn't match
14:57 |Lupin| nahuel: I'm wondering
14:57 |Lupin| nahuel: I did a dev install of Koha in /home/seb/koha-dev
14:57 |Lupin| nahuel: are the zebra files you are talking about in /etc or in /home/seb/koha-dev/etc ?
14:57 nahuel yep
14:57 nahuel no
14:57 nahuel hmmm
14:57 nahuel depends :)
14:57 |Lupin| hmmm ?
14:58 nahuel it's in the path that is specified in you koha-conf
14:58 nahuel :)
14:58 |Lupin| nahuel: ah ok
14:58 nahuel normaly it should be in the same folder
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15:02 |Lupin| nahuel: yeah it's there
15:02 |Lupin| nahuel: there is indeed a password mismatch
15:02 nahuel :)
15:02 |Lupin| nahuel: still... there is a group tag in explain-biblios.xml
15:02 |Lupin| nahuel: what should this one content ?
15:04 |Lupin| oooops contain !
15:04 nahuel It's commented
15:04 nahuel :)
15:04 nahuel So it shouldn't have anything
15:05 |Lupin| nahuel: uh I don't think it's commented in mine...
15:07 nahuel You can compare with official files
15:07 |Lupin| nahuel: I just restarted zebrasrv and the error is exactly the same...
15:07 nahuel Just comment
15:09 |Lupin| nahuel: done and restarted the daemon, same error
15:22 |Lupin| aaah it's all the authentication section which is commented... didn't see that...
15:23 jwagner_meeting is now known as jwagner
15:25 kf bye #koha
15:25 kf left #koha
15:42 rhcl What time is the foundation meeting?
15:44 chris_n 1900UTC
15:44 rhcl TNX
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15:53 Wizzyrea_ heh
15:55 owen Good timing
15:55 Wizzyrea_ heh yea
16:00 |Lupin| bye everybody see you tomorrow
16:00 |Lupin| left #koha
16:03 owen Maybe Mr. Breeding would like to volunteer to be pro-bono executive director of our foundation? :)
16:04 jdavidb heh.  First glance, though, the basic structure he suggests is sound.
16:05 owen It's a bad time to be asking libraries to pay money for just about anything, let alone dues to a foundation
16:06 jdavidb I concur, but it's gonna take a few shekels to make it work.
16:06 owen I know, I just don't know how to get over the chicken-and-egg problem
16:07 owen Anyway, the meeting today should cover lots of ground like that
16:07 jdavidb Hope so, yah.
16:09 Wizzyrea_ it might not be a bad idea for the vendors to collect foundation fees as part of their service
16:09 Wizzyrea_ so, that gets wrapped up in the vendor cost to libraries
16:09 jdavidb as a pass-through?  Yeah, that might work.
16:10 Wizzyrea_ yea
16:10 Colin But what if you don't have a vendor?
16:10 Wizzyrea_ it's just one way to get money to the foundation
16:11 Wizzyrea_ I think if you've gone and hosted it yourself, you kind of have a obligation to support the software you're using
16:11 Wizzyrea_ morally, if not actually
16:11 owen I suppose it might be some kind of value-added feature to a support contract, "Includes foundation membership!"
16:11 Wizzyrea_ yea, that's what I'm kind of thinking
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16:11 owen That would be the only way to make it appealing for vendors to incur the cost
16:12 jdavidb You'd no-doubt have a few wild-eyed radicals who go it on their own, and flatly won't cough up.
16:12 Wizzyrea_ ...  you could go so far as to say that if you don't include foundation membersship in your fees as a vendor, you don't get listed as an official support vendor
16:13 Wizzyrea_ on
16:13 jdavidb That would be a more-easily-judged way of deciding that.  Some of the current things are pretty subjective.
16:19 rhcl[…]90915-705598.html
16:28 Wizzyrea_ ha
16:30 laurence left #koha
16:32 rhcl Interesting Korerorero -
16:34 rhcl For those interested in some of Chris' Maori, I've found this helpful -[…]ri_dictionary.htm
16:38 Nate joined #koha
16:50 * jdavidb shuts down for a quick meeting here, then a commute home before the Foundation discussion.  See y'all dreckly.
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17:22 Ropuch joined #koha
17:23 Ropuch Hello again
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17:43 pianohacker Hello
17:43 nengard howdy
17:44 brendan heya pianohacker
17:44 brendan howdy nengard
17:44 pianohacker Hi, nicole, brendan
17:44 sekjal hi, everyone
17:44 pianohacker Hi Ian
17:44 brendan Hi Ian
17:44 brendan ditto
17:45 nengard grrr - everytime I log in I have an email addressed to "Dearest One"
17:45 nengard can you say spam??
17:46 sekjal nengard: you'd think that phrase would get factored into spam filters by now...
17:47 Wizzyrea_ I always take heart that someone in Nigeria loves me
17:47 Wizzyrea_ ahh, delusional warm fuzzy moments, how I love thee
17:48 pianohacker I got an interesting twist on that the other day; apparently someone in Nigeria wants to FedEx a bank draft to me
17:48 rhcl_lunch rhcl wonders if it is possible to have a virtual warm fuzzy moment?
17:48 rhcl_lunch is now known as rhcl
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17:48 pianohacker Yup. It's when you resolve a git merge conflict
17:48 kr1shnan joined #koha
17:49 kr1shnan chris: how much longer to the meeting?
17:49 rhcl Kinda like those sports seats cushions with the hot beads in them.
17:49 Wizzyrea_ 1h 15min
17:50 * sekjal is reading the AGPL
17:50 Wizzyrea_ mmmm toasty tushy
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17:54 slef chris: are you in the chair?
17:54 slef my network is up/down/up/down today :(
17:55 slef I am unhappy that the AGPL is being misadvertised again.
17:55 slef It will add problems to Koha while solving none.
17:55 pianohacker slef: What kind of problems?
17:56 gmcharlt slef: best way to deal with it is to reply in the mailing list thread with your concerns about it
17:56 slef pianohacker: see mailing list post when it arrives.
17:56 rhcl chris is still sleeping
17:56 slef gmcharlt: see ^^
17:56 pianohacker well then
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17:58 owen Hi vickiteal!
18:00 slef I keep replying to the mailing list threads and people keep starting new threads about it that suggest they haven't read the old ones.
18:00 slef It's like any closing-the-commons problem... people keep suggesting fences until someone puts them in and we lose the commons :(
18:01 rhcl and how does this relate to the agpl slef?
18:01 rhcl or does it?
18:02 slef agpl is pretty much a one-way move... as soon as the RM starts accepting agpl code, it'll be very hard to go back to the gpl
18:03 owen slef wrote "Having to offer the complete thing
18:03 owen as a download from your servers to all users (even vexatious ones)
18:03 owen seems like it would be an unacceptable extra burden on already
18:03 owen cash-strapped libraries."
18:03 owen ...and "Also, if I remember correctly, the Affero GPL doesn't require that you
18:03 owen can backup/restore all your data easily either, so there would still
18:03 owen be ways for hosting providers to lock in libraries."
18:03 slef where does logbot_backup log to?
18:04 pianohacker slef: Chris's home server
18:04 owen
18:04 slef owen: thanks
18:04 slef pianohacker: oic
18:04 owen Those quotes were from a message slef wrote in August in the "Support for Koha" thread
18:05 slef owen: any replies?
18:06 sekjal since going AGPL is (almost) a one-way process, it seems to me we should consider it very carefully, and not do it in reaction to the current situtation
18:06 owen No the conversation did stay on the license topic after that
18:06 owen did -> did *not*
18:09 Wizzyrea_ aside: interesting topic on Talk of the Nation today: "how will google change how we read books"
18:10 pianohacker So the question of the AGPL is mainly, "do and should we trust libraries/support companies to release their code, and is requiring that step excessive?", correct?
18:11 rhcl aside: quote of the day: E hiahiatia ana te whakaaetanga a te iwi whānui. The approval of the community is required.
18:11 rhcl is now known as rhcl_brb
18:12 owen Could a Koha foundation make participation so appealing that we wouldn't need a new license to prevent shenanigans?
18:13 pianohacker Just noticed, oddly enough;[…]how-to-get-listed, *
18:14 pianohacker owen: Through what incentives?
18:14 owen At the very least, through strict guidelines guessed to get listed.
18:15 snail rhcl: interesting orthography in that quote there
18:15 owen The guidelines on that page were developed in direct response to a situation very much like the one we're in today, only now Liblime is on the other side
18:15 Colin The logic behind AGPL was that things like Software as a Service could be used to take away users rights over free software as enshrined in the GPL
18:16 snail rhcl: but google supports the use
18:16 sekjal so, perhaps kind of like an accreditation process: you show that you meet the Koha Communities guidelines, and we endorse you
18:16 pianohacker Hmm. If LibLime is the only one with edit access to, and LibLime is ignoring or at least skirting parts of the how-to-get-listed guidelines, how do we use that as an incentive?
18:16 chris if the foundation did that, in a transparent way, id be ok with that
18:16 pianohacker Good morning, chris
18:16 Wizzyrea_ i had the thought earlier that vendors could pass through foundation fees to their clients, as a requirement to be listed as a vendor
18:16 chris the current way companies are listed is very flawed
18:17 owen pianohacker: The foundation would be a first step towards taking back or re-creating
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18:18 pianohacker We could use the wiki as a possible first step
18:18 kr1shnan_ left #koha
18:18 pianohacker Though we would have to decide whether we would want to transition that from a Koha Developer's Wiki to a general Koha Wiki
18:18 kr1shnan_ joined #koha
18:18 chris this i agree with slef on, it is much better to have a willing participant than a coerced one
18:19 owen I agree with sekjal that a licensing decision shouldn't be made in a reactionary way
18:19 chris but being a willing participant should get you a reward, ... certainly if you are supporting koha but your own flavour of koha, you should no longer be listed as a koha support company
18:20 owen While it merits discussion, I don't think it should be on the table for the foundation meeting proper.
18:20 chris i agree
18:20 chris its a big big subject
18:20 Colin I agree
18:20 owen is now known as owen-away
18:20 pianohacker chris: That particular restriction might well warrant its own meeting
18:20 chris :)
18:20 pianohacker As nailing it down in a fair and precise manner will be extremely difficult
18:20 chris yep
18:21 slef yes, relicensing does not directly affect foundation-forming
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18:21 sekjal though once we form the foundation, a committee can be appointed to review the licensing
18:21 pianohacker Also, I send my apologies; not going to be able to attend the foundation meeting, going to a college-related event
18:22 chris itd be nicer, if the committee had as its brief "how can we encourage good citizens"
18:22 chris and license being just one option
18:22 pianohacker chris: Sounds like a good idea
18:23 sekjal chris: agreed
18:23 chris pianohacker: any opinions on the foundation that you want represented at the meeting?
18:24 rhcl_brb is now known as rhcl
18:25 pianohacker Only that we need to deal with the Enterprise Koha situation in a measured way. I know that's hardly a unique opinion, but demonizing LibLime will not acheive our goals
18:25 chris *nod*
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18:27 chris i agree with that, my only cavaet is that we need to be clear that we aren't happy either
18:27 pianohacker Well, yeah
18:28 chris what's your college event if you dont mind me asking?
18:28 pianohacker MIT meet-and-greet
18:28 chris sweet
18:29 pianohacker Yup. Should be interesting
18:29 Wizzyrea_ MIT would be lucky to have you >.>
18:29 gmcharlt indeed
18:29 pianohacker thank you for saying so
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18:35 slef[…]/Git_introduction
18:35 * sekjal apparently just got a special delivery up in tech services
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18:37 sekjal hmmm... not the book I was hoping for
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18:39 * gmcharlt favors de-escalating  the vendor listing page by accepting entries using just two criteria: does the vendor say they offer Koha services on their website and (b) are they not known to be in active violation of the GPL by not distributing source code at all
18:39 kr1shnan_ gmcharlt: +1
18:40 chris +1
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18:40 mason +1 from me too
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18:40 Colin_ +1
18:41 slef I think that only works if there is a tighter template for entries (like thre used to be?)
18:41 chris_n +1
18:41 paul_p mmm... am I late ?
18:41 chris nope
18:41 slef because sadly some people will not be reasonable about what they put in there.
18:41 chris 20 mins paul
18:41 paul_p ah, ok, that's what I thought.
18:41 nengard +1
18:41 chris_n paul_p: just dry-running some ideas ;-)
18:41 chris oh yeah, we probably need rules on what you can say too
18:41 slef chris: have you got the chair?  I am connected by YoYo Internet tonight :-/
18:42 * paul_p agrees, but favors also a page explaining "whodowhat"
18:42 paul_p the problem being to have something that can't be disputed :\
18:42 chris slef: i would rather if someone else could
18:42 gmcharlt make it a directory, then, and have it list just contact info + enumeration of services offered from a set list (e.g., dev, hosting, migration, helpdesk support, training)
18:42 chris my son will be waking up very soon
18:42 slef ok, who wants the chair?
18:43 chris so i wont be able to give being the chair the focus it deserves
18:43 slef going to grab a snack, then will take another run at
18:44 chris someone volunteer, its unfair on poor old gmcharlt (hes not that old) to have to chair everything :)
18:45 jdavidb ...but he does it so *well* chris.
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18:45 nengard what does the chair have to do?
18:45 Wizzyrea_ eh, we've got 15 mins to decidde :P
18:45 nengard just keep everyone on track?
18:45 chris yeah keep ppl on the agenda
18:46 nengard okay - I can give it a whirl if you'll help me when you're on
18:46 * jdavidb nominates nengard
18:47 * cait supports nomination
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18:48 owen-away is now known as owen
18:48 sekjal nengard: if you're chairing, should I take notes for the wiki?
18:48 nengard sekjal that would be great
18:48 slef nengard: thanks.  I'll try to help if you want (msg me), but 1. YoYo Internet, 2. Strong Opinions and 3. ... I forget 3.
18:48 jdavidb Rule Six:  There is Noooooooo....rule six.
18:49 sekjal nengard: deal
18:49 * paul_p votes nengard
18:49 Colin_ is now known as Colin
18:49 * nengard off to check the agenda again
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18:51 nengard if you're here for the meeting remember to add yourself to the list of attendees on the wiki:[…]etingnotes09sep15
18:51 jwagner I thought Rule Six was don't forget Rule One....
18:52 slef Vote for what you want the foundation to do (publicly-visible vote I think) at[…]=bubb4xrqs54qgpwx
18:52 jdavidb That's Rule Two, jwagner.
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18:55 gmcharlt note re my vote that I'm not necessarily opposed to other possible activities of a foundation
18:55 gmcharlt just that it should be focused to begin with
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18:56 kr1shnan_ Now that nengard is here, i'd like to hear from her what she thinks has happened with LibLime...
18:56 miromurr left #koha
18:56 jdavidb concur, gmcharlt:  There aren't many of the things on that list that I'm *against*, but it's useful, IMO to handle the top-shelf items *first*
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18:56 nengard kr1shnan_ I am unable to comment on that point
18:56 collum joined #koha
18:57 kr1shnan_ nengard: ok
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18:58 chris kr1shnan_: it is unfair to ask any former liblime employee that question, they have legal obligations that mean they cannot answer it
18:58 miromurr joined #koha
18:58 chris just fyi
18:58 Colin agree gmcharlt I think we must focus on getting the main things agreed
18:59 kr1shnan_ yes, i understand
18:59 nengard I show 1 minute til meeting time
18:59 chris i agree too
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19:00 nengard hello all, my clock shows that it is meeting time, but I'm going to wait as people are still trickling in
19:00 Wizzyrea_ i didnt realize we were picking the top shelf items, so the ones i'm alone on are def not top priorities for me
19:00 nengard just a minute or two
19:01 kr1shnan_ chris: do we have any statistics for how big the Koha codebase is...
19:01 chris yep tons of them
19:01 kr1shnan_ throw me a few...will ya?
19:02 nengard Okay let's get started
19:02 chris
19:02 nengard This is the Koha Foundation Forming Meeting
19:02 nengard Let's start with introductions - include your real name and organization (if you want)
19:02 ricardo joined #koha
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19:03 slef MJ Ray,
19:03 savitra hello, savitra from Nucsoft
19:03 nengard Nicole C. Engard - Currently in-between jobs
19:03 jwagner Jane Wagner, PTFS
19:03 jransom Joann Ransom. Acting Head of Libraries. Horowhenua Library Trust.
19:03 sekjal Ian Walls, NYU Health Sciences Libraries
19:03 jdavidb J. David Bavousett, PTFS
19:03 gmcharlt Galen Charlton, Equniox
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19:03 owen Owen Leonard, Nelsonville Public Library
19:03 paul_p Paul Poulain, BibLibre
19:03 magnusenger Magnus Enger, Libriotech, Norway
19:03 dbirmingham David Birmingham, PTFS
19:03 kr1shnan_ krishnan mani, India
19:03 Nate Nate Curulla, ByWater Solutions
19:03 snail stuart yeates, New Zealand
19:03 Colin Colin Campbell ptfs-europe
19:03 chris Chris Cormack, Catalyst, Translation manager
19:03 cait Katrin Fischer, Germany
19:03 vickiteal Vicki Teal Lovely, South Central Library System, Madison, Wisconsin
19:03 Wizzyrea_ Liz Rea, Northeast Kansas Llibrary System, US
19:03 richard Richard Anderson - Katipo
19:03 rhcl rhcl - Greg Lawson - Rolling Hills Consolidated Library
19:03 tajoli Zeno Tajoli (CILEA)
19:03 rachel Rachel Hamilton-Williams, Katipo, Kaitiaki
19:03 collum Garry Collum - Kenton County Public Library
19:04 miromurr Thomas Brevik, Bergen, Norway, Royal Norwegian Naval Academy Library
19:04 Ropuch Piotr Wejman, CSNE Library, Poland
19:04 IrmaCalyx Irma Birchall - Calyx - Australia
19:04 schuster David Schuster, Plano ISD
19:04 sh Sverre Helge Bolstad, Norway
19:04 davi hi
19:05 nengard I will be chairing this meeting, but welcome all help you want to give ;) I will try to keep everyone on track. skejal will be in charge of note-taking and will update the wiki for us all
19:05 chris thank you nengard and sekjal
19:05 gmcharlt nengard++
19:05 gmcharlt sekjal++
19:05 nengard The first agenda item is to discuss our goals for a foundation. Hopefully you hae all taking a look at the wiki to see the foundation forming notes
19:05 jransom rosa is coming :)
19:05 nengard
19:05 davi Davi Diaz, worker for
19:05 chris_n Chris Nighswonger, FBC
19:05 nengard Welcome everyone
19:06 breeding Marshall Breeding, (lurking)
19:06 nengard So, let us discuss the goals we want to see a foundation meet for the community
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19:07 ricardo2 is now known as ricardo
19:07 ricardo (Finally... I could get here through Mibbit.)
19:07 nengard I personally think that a non-profit organization in charge of the governance of the Koha community would eliminate many of the problems we had over the years -- it seems that when money is involved it clouds people's visions
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19:08 nengard other desires are listed here:
19:08 slef Would anyone feel strongly that there's a goal which should be added to the poll?
19:08 rosa left #koha
19:08 chris my first aim for a foundation would not be governance
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19:08 kr1shnan_ chris: can you clarify that...
19:08 * gmcharlt points out poll for people just joining: <slef> Vote for what you want the foundation to do (publicly-visible vote I think) at[…]=bubb4xrqs54qgpwx
19:08 nengard for those joining in late please introduce yourself for the group and the notes
19:08 chris it would be a place to hold thngs like, etc
19:08 slef gmcharlt: ta. I linked it on just now too
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19:09 nengard chris I think of those things as part of governance ...
19:09 chris_n I would think the securing of intellectual property would be first priority
19:09 chris safe repository for our shared assets
19:09 nengard agreed
19:09 chris then governing the project could come later
19:09 ricardo Ricardo Dias Marques, Portugal (author of the "Installation Guide of Koha 3 in openSUSE 11" and contributor to the Portuguese Translation)
19:09 richard good thinking
19:09 owen But very early on we'd need some neutral rules set up for things like management of the web site
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19:10 kr1shnan_ is it possible that securing the assets is something that may take very long...?
19:10 kr1shnan_ and in the meantime, what?
19:10 owen Any part of this could take very long :)
19:10 paul_p2 (hotel wifi not reliable. Trying with 3G key)
19:10 ricardo paul_p2: Good luck Paul :)
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19:10 slef kr1shnan_: in the meantime, we are no worse than today.
19:10 nengard I'm with owen on the rules - I'd like to see anyone involved in the project able to edit the website - but some sort of security to prevent spamming
19:11 davi I think the Foundation should be managed democratically by its member, and Foundations do not use to be a good legal figure to support a democratic management model
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19:11 owen Does our choice of primary goals affect what kind of foundation we should be looking at?
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19:11 mason mason from NZ waves...
19:11 chris nengard: i agree but without first having the foundation owning ... that point is moot
19:11 tajoli I think a organization  more light as possible
19:11 nengard very true chris
19:11 ricardo chris: *nod*
19:12 CGI386 joined #koha
19:12 nengard and owen this is the part i get lost with - the business side of the foundation
19:12 tajoli But now who own ?
19:12 chris liblime at the moment tajoli
19:12 slef I heard no voices for adding more options to the poll, unless davi wants me to add "managed democratically by its member" and chris "owning"?
19:12 owen Yes, and unfortunately the business side of the foundation is what we have to figure out
19:12 rosa joined #koha
19:12 Jo left #koha
19:13 schuster When it comes time to filling as a foundation etc... that is when "purpose" is very important.
19:13 davi What about an "Association" instead of a "Foundation". Association have a better record to be good at democratic management
19:13 schuster File ...
19:13 rosa hello everyone
19:13 paul_p left #koha
19:13 ricardo schuster: "File"?
19:13 schuster legally.
19:13 rachel by buisness side do you mean how it's managed, how things are decided?
19:13 davi slef, Yes, please, add " "managed democratically by its member"  with Association figure instead of Foundation as base
19:14 ricardo schuster: Ah, understood
19:14 Jo joined #koha
19:14 kr1shnan_ Has anyone checked with Joshua if they'll part with
19:14 kr1shnan_ amicably, that is?
19:14 nicomo joined #koha
19:14 nengard For ease of business purposes, I like the idea of attaching Koha to an exisiting foundation for the purposes we discuss here today and then revisiting the posibility of creating our own foundation at a later date
19:14 chris thats also another thing we have to decide, there are organisations taht can take on this role already, do we want to create another one ... but that might be next on the agenda
19:14 chris hehe snap
19:14 nengard hehe
19:14 davi rachel, democracy management is key since the developers point of view. We are all developers, you know
19:14 nengard great minds
19:14 stephaniechase hello -- I'm from the koha group in Vermont -- are people thinking about an international group to oversee everything?
19:14 nengard stephaniechase yes
19:15 nengard this is a foundation forming meeting:[…]etingnotes09sep15
19:15 davi nengard, What is "your" foundation?
19:15 nengard davi, I don't have one
19:15 davi ah
19:15 nengard just thinking if we want to attach to one of the ones listed on the wiki
19:15 snail stephaniechase: legally not-for-profits must be based somewhere
19:15 stephaniechase I know on the notes for the meeting there was some discussion of an overall international one vs. country specific
19:16 schuster We would need to look at organizations that are global to associate ourselves with and if they are willing to accept us "temporarially"
19:16 JonasS left #koha
19:16 rhcl slef and chris are apparently members of spi, do they have any comments related to this?
19:16 slef am adding "managed democratically by its member (Association more than Foundation)", "owning" and "networking local associations (such as KUDOS, KohaLA)" to it
19:16 chris there are 2 organisations i am interested in SPI, and HLT
19:16 tajoli I think that the solution "Horowhenua Library Trust" immediatly
19:16 nengard HLT seems like the most logical to me
19:16 chris as possible repositories for our assets
19:17 davi schuster, I think an Association will fit better than a Foundation to our purpose (developers)
19:17 owen Can we have chris the floor for a moment to make his case?
19:17 slef I think applying to become an associated project of SPI would give us a home, temporary or permanent, but I hear that libraries may be sceptical of a developer-led foundation.
19:17 slef owen: ok
19:17 owen If this is a good time, chris
19:17 nengard eveyrone hold your questions while chris makes his case
19:17 miromurr would it be possible to approach IFLA and see if it is possible to put Koha under their umbrella?
19:17 chris ok, heres my deal, it is going to take a long time to build a foundation of our own
19:17 chris and it is a process that has to be done really carefully
19:18 chris or yuo make a huge rod for your own back by accident
19:18 tajoli I thinK IFLA is not good. Too borocratic
19:18 paul_p2 tajoli: ++
19:18 chris HLT is already a registered charitable trust
19:18 paul_p2 HLT++
19:18 davi chris++
19:18 chris it has satisfied all the legal requirements to be one
19:19 chris and has a long (longest :) history with koha
19:19 chris maybe if rosa's internet is stable
19:19 chris she can speak to it more?
19:19 davi  HLT?
19:19 thd-away left #koha
19:19 chris horowhenua library trust davi
19:19 slef davi:
19:19 rachel ah no -
19:20 rhcl chris: pzl compare/contrast HLT with SPI
19:20 slef seeAlso[…]nua_library_trust
19:20 Wizzyrea_ presumably they would have no interest in holding the assets once a proper foundation was formed?
19:20 chris nope
19:20 nengard can anyone from HLT speak to what Chris is suggesting?
19:20 jransom I think Rosalie is here
19:20 rosa I am.
19:20 chris they may well be the proper foundation  even :)
19:21 rosa I'm no longer employed by HLT, having retired, but I'll comment on what I think their actions/responses might be.
19:21 Wizzyrea_ independent foundation, then :)
19:21 jransom Rosa: youtalk I'lkl listen :)
19:21 jransom I have spoken with the Trust and they are happy to step in temporaily
19:22 chris rhcl: SPI is a organisation with a variety of software projects, focused on software projects, HLT is a trust focused on running libraries, but with the distinction of having started KOha and Kete :)
19:22 jransom they know this is aal happening
19:22 thd-away joined #koha
19:22 rosa HLT has a parallel situation with Kete, which was the second piece of OS software we developed, and we held on to everything pretty tight with Kete. We now have to decide what to do with that software too
19:22 jransom and happy to be involved
19:23 rosa I think the trustees could be persuaded to take a respobsibility here
19:23 kr1shnan_ Translation of a Hindi proverb: "The destiny of ice is to melt into its own waters..."
19:23 jransom difference with Kete is that Katipo has done most of the NZ development and has sked all funders to assign copyright back to HLT. so we own all copyriht to the code.
19:24 rosa but they will need to be assured just what they're taking on, and how much work and time they are committing to.
19:24 chris that makes sense rosa
19:24 owen So we would need to define what the koha community needs from the trustees.
19:25 davi If it is free software, GPL, BSD, it does not matter who 'own' the copyright
19:25 nengard It sounds to me like the easiest way to make this move along efficiently is to make HLT the temporary holders of the koha copyright and domain for the foundation that will later be formed
19:25 jransom philosphically they ultimately would prefer a strong community organisation to take over - when it can.
19:25 slef poll updated (three extra options for early voters if you still have the window open) - new voters can go to[…]=bubb4xrqs54qgpwx
19:25 brendan sorry just joining now -- long phone call
19:25 rosa I would state confidently that they wouldn't be keen to hang on to anything if there was some responsible entity to hand over to.
19:25 owen What do you think joining HLT would bring to the koha project?
19:25 slef who are HLT's members?
19:25 davi nengard,  If it is free software, GPL, BSD, it does not matter who 'own' the copyright
19:25 miromurr sounds to me that HLT would be a good temporary solution and then maybe spend time working on an association/foundation?
19:25 jransom[…]how/24-who-we-are
19:26 nengard true davi
19:26 paul_p2 davi is right: the copyright is not important. what is is the domain name, and the trademarks.
19:26 rosa there are 5 to 7 trustees, all appointed by Horowhenua District Council
19:26 davi paul_p2, trademark is key
19:26 nengard right sorry used the wrong words
19:26 brendan Brendan Gallagher -- ByWater Solutions
19:26 jransom[…]nua-library-trust
19:27 davi miromurr, Why not move directly to an association/foundation?
19:27 nengard Is there a way that voted community members would be able to work with the HLT if needed to make Koha decisions?
19:27 jransom al good reputable people, JPs, QSMs,
19:27 rosa they have a trust deed which controls what they can do, but its pretty inclusive as long as it serves the purpose of promoting library service in Horowhenua
19:27 davi HLT is not needed
19:27 nengard davi I think it's a time issue
19:27 slef JP = Judge, QSM = ?
19:27 nengard founding our own non profit is very time consuming
19:27 thd-away is now known as thd
19:27 jransom i am certain thaa the trust will want guidance and input and recommendations :)
19:27 miromurr davi gives us more time to set up the right solution
19:28 chris JP = justice of the peace, QSM = Queen service medal
19:28 jransom but all youngish and vibrant
19:28 rosa pillars of the community
19:28 nengard I've done a bit of a poor job with chairing here :) we seem to be on agenda item #3
19:28 nengard I mean #4
19:28 chris i suppose we could have a memorandum of understanding with the trust, which sets out the terms
19:28 slef chris: +1
19:28 jransom so koha could be set up as a subcommittee as we id with kete
19:29 rachel the reason for HLT is to have a legally incorporated society to hold property "in trust', rather vendors doing that now
19:29 gmcharlt chris: who would the counterparty be, legally speaking?
19:29 jransom report directly to the trust
19:29 Jo left #koha
19:29 Wizzyrea_ we probably need to set out immediate and secondary concerns
19:29 chris gmcharlt: good question :)
19:29 Wizzyrea_ almost like a strategic plan
19:29 Jo joined #koha
19:29 Wizzyrea_ I can't believe I just said that.
19:29 chris_n who is the 'we' at this point?
19:29 * jdavidb squints to see if Wizzyrea is really wizzyrea.  Doesn't *sound* like her...
19:29 jransom the trust want a briefing on the situatio now: what has happened and what the problems are.
19:30 miromurr Wizzyrea :) I agree!
19:30 slef rachel: I assume HLT is prevented from becoming a vendor or selling donated assets to one by its legal configuration?
19:30 nengard we = the people on this meeting and anyone who wants to give their opinion
19:30 jransom then a clear indciation of what is required of them immediately
19:30 jransom and then a bit further down the track.
19:30 Wizzyrea_ we... interested parties? people with an interest in the longevity and vibrancy of koha?
19:30 rosa I think who is we is an important point from the trustees pov
19:30 tajoli Immediatly:
19:30 chris slef: yes thats the good thing about a trust
19:30 ricardo rosa: *nod*
19:31 rachel HLT have experience ( I think) holding valuable assets for communities (and not selling them :-) like a museum does, they hold valuable Taonga (treasures) for local maori for example
19:31 schuster and expensive to create an association or foundation and getting it recognized etc...
19:31 rachel so it not such a leap for them to look after/house our treasures for us
19:31 gmcharlt jransom et al: to propose a framework - if website is the immediate goal, actions woudl be requesting transfer of domain and arranging hosting arrangements with project members and interesting volunteers for Koha websites
19:31 nengard I think that this is a good point to give a quick summary and try to decide what our next steps will be - is everyone okay with that
19:31 thd chris: points out a very important question about the 'we'
19:31 davi we = main part of the Koha community ?
19:31 chris schuster: yes expensive and time consuming :)
19:31 chris_n to restate gmcharlt: is 'we' able to enter into a legal relationship with HLT?
19:31 davi or even all it
19:32 ricardo chris_n: Right... It does seem a bit of a "catch 22"
19:32 jransom isn't 'we' a bunch of individuals and orgs with a common interest
19:32 miromurr One of the reasons I suggested IFLA is that we can become a "sub-group/association" and work within that framework - less paperwork actually
19:32 chris gmcharlt: that seems like a very good short term goal
19:32 kr1shnan_ I don't understand the need for a legal counterparty for entrusting assets to HLT temporarily
19:32 chris there isnt kr1shnan_
19:32 kr1shnan_ we could all just become signatories to a memorandum of agreement
19:33 ricardo kr1shnan_: How can you trust assets to others if they don't belong to you?
19:33 chris it only needs the person who has the asset currently to sign it
19:33 jransom so maybethetust would call for applications / nominations of people interested in forming a goivernance subcommitte f the trust. say 5 - 7 people who would then be 'we'
19:33 Wizzyrea_ it's kind of a problem that the people who hold the assets aren't here now :/
19:33 slef chris: AIUI in .uk, trusts don't /necessarily/ have an asset lock like CICs and some co-ops.  Does HLT?
19:33 davi miromurr++
19:33 chris_n chris: that may be the show stopper
19:34 davi kr1shnan++
19:34 ricardo (that's what I mean by "catch 22")
19:34 tajoli In my experience IFLA is very long on doing anything. Probalbly better if you stay in Holland
19:34 chris chris_n: thats the show stopper for any foundation tho ...
19:34 joetho joined #koha
19:34 owen I'd like to give someone an opportunity to lay out the argument for IFLA, if only just for context
19:34 nengard okay
19:34 ricardo owen++
19:34 nengard everyone hold questions
19:34 kr1shnan_ If any requests or action needs to be initiated, will HLT be responsible to do those?
19:34 chris also, i would like slef to speak to SPI
19:34 slef so, who is "we"?  Two obvious-to-me classes: developers/supporters and users.  Any more?
19:34 nengard someone please explain why we'd want IFLA
19:35 nengard IFLA first then SPI
19:35 slef parking "who is we"
19:35 nengard miromurr can you explain the reasons for why we'd want IFLA?
19:36 nengard quote from earlier <miromurr> One of the reasons I suggested IFLA is that we can become a "sub-group/association" and work within that framework - less paperwork actually
19:36 davi Is IFLA democratic managed?
19:36 miromurr IFLA is an established international organization - has the interests of libraries first - can do paperwork
19:36 rosa left #koha
19:36 nengard
19:36 davi by all its members?
19:36 owen Let's give miromurr a chance to finish
19:37 miromurr Ifla has several different organizational models for subgroups - we should investigate if this is a long term option
19:37 davi If we already plan get our own association/foundation later, it do not matter too much with who go first, but we must take care of not getting trapped
19:38 tajoli I'm woking on a italian translation of Unimarc as CC. I have finished at may 2009. They didn't answer yet.
19:38 nengard thanks miromurr - slef can you tell us about SPI?
19:38 nengard or should we take IFLA questions first?
19:38 slef take IFLA questions first IMO
19:38 tajoli So no very quickly
19:38 rosab joined #koha
19:39 owen How about someone lay out the disadvantages to IFLA...we've heard "slow," but I'm not sure what that means in practical terms
19:39 rosab sorry, Im back
19:39 nengard okay - i was wondering if we signed up with IFLA if the community might lose control of the trademarks and domain - it seems like we're signing up for a monster org
19:39 kr1shnan_ How much can IFLA relate to Koha?
19:39 nengard that's what i'm wondering kr1shnan_
19:39 Wizzyrea_ they do appear to have a library technology subgroup
19:39 chris_n does IFLA represent any libraries using koha?
19:39 Wizzyrea_ so it would appear that they have an interest
19:40 tajoli Well the IT section secretary is a Koha fun and a Koha vendor
19:40 thd IFLA has no funding to even organise their own website properly
19:40 davi slow would be bad, because we just want some quick switch and later follow our own way?
19:40 joetho left #koha
19:40 nengard Wizzyrea_ but are these subgroups the same as committees in other associations?
19:40 joetho joined #koha
19:40 nengard or do we manage our own subgroup?
19:40 kr1shnan_ Will someone at IFLA be very upset if they did not "do well" by us?
19:40 thd IFLA is 5 full time equivalents for all the world's libraries
19:40 miromurr IFLA currently changing org looking for more direct partipciation
19:41 slef I think Brooke has concerns about IFLA and ethics but maybe I misunderstand[…]n-td20006648.html
19:41 tajoli He is : Edmund Balnaves
19:41 thd 5 on a good day and maybe 3 on most days
19:41 davi thd, The goal of join IFLA SPI etc is get funding? If so, maybe would be better fund ourselves
19:41 slef miromurr: got a link about them looking for more direct participation (now or later)
19:42 slef davi: the goal is to gather/manage funding and other assets I think.  A central rallying point.
19:42 slef oops
19:42 slef miromurr: have you got a link about them looking for more direct participation (now or later) please?
19:42 chris sorry gotta change a nappy brb
19:42 Wizzyrea_ no idea
19:42 tajoli
19:42 gmcharlt slef: I don't think Brooke is speaking to that point, actually
19:42 miromurr slef: looking
19:43 davi slef, I am not sure IFLA or SPI will help to get enough funds
19:43 thd davi: the goal has great merit but I can imagine that it would impose a burden to help IFLA to be recognised.  I would consider that a favourable burden but a real one.
19:43 rhcl Does IFLA have a position on OSS? I don't see anything from a quick glance at the site?
19:43 thd s/to be recognised/for Koha to be recognised within IFLA/
19:44 * paul_p2 has contacts with Réjan Savard, so could speak with him directly (he's a member of the IFLA board)
19:44 davi If the goal is get funding, maybe we can get it ourselves
19:44 nengard I think we need to add researching some of IFLA's goals and missions to our list of things to do at a later date
19:44 davi How much we need?
19:44 tajoli
19:44 davi and to spend doing what?
19:44 Jo left #koha
19:44 davi funding developers?
19:44 thd rhc1 even with careful examination of the site for known documents it can be nearly impossible to find them.
19:44 chris_n[…]ce-moving-forward
19:44 owen davi: funding isn't a primary goal of the foundation IMO
19:44 jransom HLT is not in a position to fund anything much so anything needing funding will have to be funded outside of our purse
19:44 Jo joined #koha
19:45 sekjal notes recap:  poll puts ensuring the ongoing governance of the project as top priority.
19:45 chris owen++
19:45 paul_p2 Réjan Savard knows well Koha.
19:45 richard owen: agreed
19:45 nengard I didn't think we were looking for funding in this first round
19:45 nengard no one mentioned that when we were talking about goals
19:45 nengard the immediate goal is to get the koha trademarks
19:45 kr1shnan_ nengard: nevertheless we may need some for any preliminary steps
19:45 nengard to be held by a non profit
19:45 ricardo nengard++
19:45 chris im actually more interested in the
19:45 sekjal notes recap: we are looking at attaching ourselves to an existing foundation, rather than immediately forming our own
19:45 miromurr I think maybe we should shelve IFLA for the momnt and focus on immediate concerns
19:45 nengard I think we're moving a bit to far ahead for this meeting
19:45 chris but trademarks would be good too
19:45 sekjal notes recap:  comparing HLT, IFLA, SPI
19:45 nengard right
19:45 chris_n chris++
19:45 davi sekjal, ensuring governance is beginning to create a democratic managed Association the sooner possible
19:46 nengard thanks sekjal
19:46 nengard let's have slef tell us about SPI so we can compare the options
19:46 slef OK, well, SPI is Software in the Public Interest which is a New York not-for-profit corporation 501c(3) which is controlled by a board elected by its contributing members.
19:46 ricardo chris: But owning the trademark Koha would secure against disputes regarding ownership
19:46 ricardo (sorry... shutting up now)
19:46 hdl_laptop left #koha
19:46 slef Usually the contributing members are software developers, but I could ask whether representatives donating libraries could be included.  It still won't be a library foundation, though.
19:46 davi nengard++ , I would go with a non-profit association
19:46 slef representative of donating libraries...
19:47 hdl_laptop joined #koha
19:47 slef It's been running for about 10 years and has the strong position on FOSS and assets that you'd expect from a debian-associated org
19:48 nengard slef - the same question to you that i had for the others - do we think we'd be able to use SPI as a temp holding grounds while we are getting more organized?
19:48 kr1shnan_ slef: any example assets for SLEF?
19:48 chris could SPI act as a temporary holder in the same way that we were talking about HLT ... while we decide on permanent solution (which might end up SPI)
19:48 kr1shnan_ sorry /SLEF/SPI
19:48 slef nengard: Yes, the OpenSource Initiative and the Gnome foundation have done that.
19:48 nengard thanks
19:49 kr1shnan_ thanks
19:49 nengard other questions about SPI?
19:49 slef both were SPI-linked, now are their own corporations
19:49 slef kr1shnan_: example assets are money, domain names and trademarks
19:49 owen slef, would you care to make a case for SPI over the other choices? Anything to highlight?
19:49 stephaniechase slef, you mentioned it before and I just wanted to say that as a librarian, it doesn't matter to me whether the organization is developer or library based.
19:49 thd I have a question about SPI as about any organisation.
19:49 slef owen: I'd highlight the democracy, but I don't know if IFLA has that too.
19:49 Wizzyrea_ pros/cons of a US non profit holding the assets?
19:50 nengard i like the idea that they have a good history and that we can get our assets out and move them to a koha specific org at a later date if we want
19:50 jransom is it more likely that US donors would give to A US based Koha org over a NZ based one?
19:50 slef stephaniechase: I mention it because several people mention it to me, suggesting there are grants out there that only a library-linked org could get.
19:50 thd What is the actual policy for becoming a voting member?
19:50 davi Wizzyrea_,  country should not matter if it is done rightly?
19:51 miromurr left #koha
19:51 slef thd: contributing to free FOSS development.  I'll find the actual wording for you now.
19:51 kr1shnan_ i am suggesting that we nominate a few people to actually discuss this with SPI, HLT, IFLA, any others and then come back...
19:51 schuster Knowing where we are now - I would think the people who are currently holding any assets would have a harder time justifying not giving them to HTL.
19:51 jransom they have a good project list: debian, drupal, open office etc
19:51 rhcl agree w/ kr1shnan
19:51 jdavidb kr1shnan_++
19:51 slef "Contributing memberships are open to persons and organizations who have made significant contributions to the free software community, as determined by the membership committee."
19:51 jransom schuster: agreed
19:51 chris_n schuster++
19:51 thd slef: I do not mean the general guidelines but the working policy.
19:51 gmcharlt jransom: that'a actually a consideration for why a Koha foundation may never end up being a significant nexus for fundraising - local foundations may be a better bet
19:51 davi SPI++ would be my current vote
19:51 nengard Can we put together a comparison chart of sorts on the wiki
19:51 chris schuster: that is a good point to keep in consideration
19:52 nengard where the experts can fill in the details
19:52 stephaniechase slef, our project in VT is run through a 501(c)3, and I imagine other koha projects are too... I imagine an existing library based non-profit could be the run-through for grants
19:52 nengard we can also set up a preliminary vote based on the 3 options presented here
19:52 sekjal I'll work up the chart with the pros/cons we laid out here, and ya'll can add new info as it comes up
19:52 nengard which i think bring us to the last agenda item
19:52 thd slef: The membership committee was supposed to create actual rules but I have never seen them.
19:52 nengard talking about the next moves
19:52 owen breeding made a case on his web site today for a library-oriented foundation: http://www.librarytechnology.o[…]adID=126&BlogID=1
19:52 miromurr joined #koha
19:52 slef thd: working practice is that one joins as non-contributing, apply for upgrade with verifiable claims which are reviewed by the membership committee.
19:52 owen Is that a question for our "real" foundation, rather than a "preliminary" one?
19:53 nengard sekjal++
19:53 slef thd: it might be lost in the website again.
19:53 * nengard raises hand to bring all to attention for a minute
19:53 nengard might I suggest that we let sekjal put the notes together and then all participate in filling in the gaps out the three options we talked about today
19:53 thd slef: I am looking for a reasonably objective standard that anyone could interpret in much the same manner.
19:54 slef thd: found it.[…]p/guidelines.html
19:54 rhcl For the developer/library focus issue, right now I think we are all in this together as equals.
19:54 nengard we can add ot that list the option of forming a totally new foundation
19:54 nengard but for now I think we might need to do some research before moving forward
19:54 davi nengard++
19:54 kr1shnan_ nengard: we'd also need some common criteria of what we are looking a prologue to that list
19:54 kr1shnan_ nengard++
19:54 * gmcharlt suggests that we set a *firm* deadline for this research
19:55 ricardo nengard and kr1shnan_ : agreed
19:55 schuster gmcharlt++
19:55 thd nengard: I would like to raise the SFLC.
19:55 nengard gmcharlt would 2 weeks be 2 short a time?
19:55 chris_n gmcharlt++
19:55 slef nengard: this has been researched for 3.5 years now.  It's time to move on soon.
19:55 gmcharlt I suggest the following
19:55 gmcharlt 1. we set up a preference poll in the next day or two
19:55 Wizzyrea_ yes, decision time
19:55 thd I agree with slef but there are some details missing from some options.
19:55 owen slef: researched, but not in an organized fashion
19:56 gmcharlt 2. discuss for no longer than two weeks
19:56 davi slef, move on soon ++
19:56 gmcharlt 3. hold a second vote
19:56 chris i like that plan
19:56 nengard gmcharlt++
19:56 slef I think the ideal would be a library+developer multi-stakeholder foundation.  It may be that no such one exists.
19:56 chris_n +1
19:56 jdavidb gmcharlt++
19:56 ricardo gmcharlt: 2. Discuss where - "Koha-Devel" mailing list?
19:56 Ropuch gmcharlt++
19:56 miromurr sounds like a good idea
19:56 schuster Will there be a place for people/companies to "Comment"
19:56 nengard If we discuss on the lists - I recommend keeping a page ont he wiki up to date
19:56 nengard sometimes emails get lost
19:56 owen And publicize the poll to the Koha mailing list for a wider range of opinions. Many find IRC too scary
19:56 chris slef: i think it doesnt, but finding a holding place while we create one is where im at :)
19:57 vickiteal Why Koha-Devel mailing list if both libraries and developers are included?
19:57 davi library+developer multi-stakeholder democratic association/foundation
19:57 nengard we need to post on all mailing lists
19:57 owen vickiteal, I agree.
19:57 nengard not just devel
19:57 chris_n wiki is the ideal place along with announcements to both lists
19:57 miromurr davi++
19:57 ricardo vickiteal: OK. Sounds reasonable
19:57 thd When we vote how do we ensure that the vote would be inclusive enough for such an important question?
19:57 paul_p2 gmcharlt: ++
19:57 vickiteal Thanks!
19:57 jransom yep - bott list
19:57 schuster nengard++ all mailing lists/facebook etc...
19:57 slef I feel that breeding's blog post is stuck in the old view of vendors as servants rather than developers... but then, that does feel like where we are at times recently.
19:57 nengard thd inclusive how? meaning enough people?
19:57 owen thd: there is no guarantee
19:57 sekjal wiki should be centralize document storage.  distribute links via listservs, twitter, IRC, etc.
19:57 nengard I'm with schuster
19:58 gmcharlt thd: anybody who is not paying enough attention to fail to vote in two weeks time is not interested enough, IMO
19:58 rachel how about a minimum number of votes?
19:58 nengard we list it everywhere possible to get libraries and developers included
19:58 gmcharlt we're past the long vacation periods
19:58 nengard we don't want to leave anyone out
19:58 chris_n thd: that is always the problem in a democracy: some people exercise their right not to vote... :(
19:58 rachel ie if only 5 votes  - not enough
19:58 nengard rachel what would be enough?
19:58 davi sekjal++
19:58 thd Should there be a call to those who do not read the English lists to pay attention to the process?
19:58 chris yes
19:58 tajoli 30, 50% of the present now
19:58 kr1shnan_ thd: excellent idea
19:59 chris i will announce on koha-translate
19:59 rachel there are about 60 users here - how about 30?
19:59 slef thd++
19:59 Wizzyrea_ and someone to translate the info
19:59 chris_n if there is not enough concern at this point to garner more than 5 votes, then we are in trouble
19:59 Wizzyrea_ for those who don't speak english
19:59 paul_p2 + how would we deal with companies like mine ? 1 man 1 vote ? 1 company 1 vote ?
19:59 nengard okay - i will set up the polls unless someone else wnats to do it
19:59 magnusenger chris_n++
19:59 schuster We also have the mailing list from KohaCon09 - I know about publicity and trying to get the word out Koha is quite scattered.
19:59 paul_p2 (or libraries)
19:59 nengard and post the links to the wiki and lists and social networks
19:59 nengard for all to share on the places i miss
19:59 nengard does tthat owrk?
19:59 nengard that work?
19:59 chris works for me
19:59 vickiteal I don't think we need to worry about what is enough. What do we have to measure against?
20:00 chris_n nengard++
20:00 schuster Paul I believe also has a list for French?
20:00 chris i think it will be pretty obvious if we dont have enough
20:00 vickiteal We shouldn't exclude those who aren't here today from the count.
20:00 chris we dont need a set number
20:00 thd paul_p2 raises an important issue which I think should be about individuals not companies or libraries.
20:00 davi paul_p2, 1 person 1 vote
20:00 schuster One company one vote, one library one vote..
20:00 ricardo nengard: I think it can... I agree with posting links in the wiki to relevant "mailing list" messages, blog entries, etc...
20:00 paul_p2 schuster: yep, i'll translate (and put the poll link on our blog as well)
20:00 joetho left #koha
20:00 tajoli 1 person 1 vote
20:00 nengard tajoli++
20:00 slef me and my sock puppets say 1 person 1 vote
20:00 vickiteal Do we really need to be formal about the vote?
20:00 schuster vickiteal++
20:01 stephaniechase left #koha
20:01 nengard self - your sock puppets don't get votes :) hehe
20:01 nengard vickiteal, no i don't think so
20:01 tajoli I can transalte and port in italian (few people until now)
20:01 Wizzyrea_ in many cases the one vote might be the feeling of an organization, but not necessarily so
20:01 nengard just some general ideas of what we're looking for
20:01 chris vickiteal: in so much is that we want people to take it seriously then yes
20:01 gmcharlt vickiteal: I think formal enough to ensure that 1 person, 1 vote actually means 1 real live human being
20:01 jransom i'm not sure whether 1 perosn = 1 vote or 1 company = 1 vote
20:01 chris_n formality = credibility
20:01 Wizzyrea_ i'm for 1 person 1 vote
20:01 chris 1 person 1 vote for me too
20:01 thd Yet, how do we keep some interest group from unfairly recruiting people to vote if we have no standard for who is allowed to vote?
20:01 davi thd, paul_p2 ,
20:01 kr1shnan_ maybe, we can take some of the votes at random, and ask people to verify that they indeed voted that way
20:02 Wizzyrea_ we could require a name or an institution
20:02 slef nengard:[…]puppet_(Internet)
20:02 kr1shnan_ i.e., verification for a formal vote
20:02 vickiteal If company/institution then what qualifies them?
20:02 jransom if its overwhelmeing vote 1 way or the other then won'' be an issue
20:02 jransom the problem will be with close results
20:02 vickiteal Does SCLS get a vote (not live)?
20:02 * nengard giggles at slef
20:02 paul_p2 i'm for 1 person 1 vote, and with non anonymous votes. Thus, if someone tries to organize some bad things, we would see.
20:02 chris vickiteal: of course
20:02 davi schuster, thd , paul_p2
20:02 chris_n paul_p2++
20:03 chris scls has committed more than a lot of ppl who have been live for years
20:03 nengard anyone with an interest in koha gets a vote
20:03 jransom agree with paul
20:03 slef I think we should not be too formal now, but total the vote in several ways like 1 person 1 vote, 1 org 1 vote, 1 type/sector 1 vote and so on.
20:03 Wizzyrea_ you have an interest in the long term viability and vivacity of koha, right vickiteal? :)
20:03 magnusenger paul_p2++
20:03 chris committed = participated :)
20:03 Wizzyrea_ I think that should be the only qualifier
20:03 vickiteal Yes and thanks!
20:03 nengard paul_p2++
20:03 chris_n chris++
20:03 jransom anyone who cares enough to vote, can vote
20:03 nengard Okay - summary time!
20:03 schuster ++ everyone.
20:03 nengard sekjal will post the notes on the wiki
20:04 ricardo I still have 2 short questions...
20:04 nengard nengard will put a vote up by the end of today (EST)
20:04 sekjal by providing name/affiliation, it will be clear who in the community.  lots of us know lots of us
20:04 thd nengard: How do we distinguish those with an interest in Koha from those who may be called upon merely to influence the vote imporperly.
20:04 nengard we will all research over the next two weeks
20:04 nengard and then we will vote again and have another meeting
20:04 chris sekjal++
20:04 ricardo nengard++
20:04 davi sekjal++
20:04 nengard thd - not sure ...
20:04 chris i think sekjal answered that
20:04 chris already
20:04 kr1shnan_ hmm... by it ad-hoc?
20:05 nengard i mean fill in the comparison so that we can make an educated vote the second time around
20:05 jransom would be niuce to see reserach posted to the wiki
20:05 davi thd, the way sekjal propose (by providing name/affiliation)
20:05 slef kr1shnan_: good point.  owen commented that it has been unstructured so far.
20:05 ricardo jransom++
20:05 nengard and answer some of the questions we couldn't answer on this chat
20:05 kr1shnan_ i thought we'd have a few people for each option that was identified, and they'd go off and actually speak with each of them
20:05 thd nengard: Just to be clear, I have seen the voting process and other processes abused in some organisations.
20:05 vickiteal Quick question...
20:05 vickiteal Should we include a new foundation as an option in the vote?
20:05 kr1shnan_ since jransom, rosa, Chris etc. looks like they already spoke with HLT
20:05 nengard vickiteal - yes
20:05 slef jransom++ instead of splattered over the mailing list ignoring past research.
20:06 ricardo vickiteal: yes
20:06 nengard thd -- not sure how to prevent it ... do you have a suggestion other than name/affiliation
20:06 nengard ?
20:06 davi thd, abuse can be detected via (by providing name/affiliation)
20:06 davi in this initial community organization state
20:06 jransom guess we will have to define what consitututes abuse :)
20:06 vickiteal I trust those setting up the vote/poll to determine what votes are valid.
20:06 ricardo My question is: does anyone know what is the current status and/or statutes (charter) of the "Koha Software Foundation" started by LibLime?
20:06 slef vickiteal: maybe, but make it clear it will involve a wait.  LibLime's KSF was filed in February, but is still unlaunched.
20:06 sekjal thd: the overhead to providing a rigourous means of verfication may be too great for a community our size (at this time)
20:07 jransom nods ...
20:07 owen ricardo: no one knows but LibLime
20:07 chris ricardo: only liblime
20:07 slef ricardo: I'm pretty sure no developers do.
20:07 thd davi: Detecting is one thing but a formal procedure to do something about a detectable problem is something else.
20:07 davi vickiteal, I would include a democratic association instead
20:07 nengard okay - is everyone okay with us closing this meeting?
20:07 davi thd, just apply common sense for this  initial community organization state
20:07 ricardo owen / chris / slef : OK, thanks for the info. That's a shame
20:07 * gmcharlt states for the record that the question of the purpose of a foundation is separate from its desired governance structure
20:07 kr1shnan_ nengard: some suggestions
20:07 thd sekjal: Verification is not really what I meant in terms of false assertion.
20:08 schuster Great job!nengard...  applause....
20:08 kr1shnan_ how about identifying those assets that we really want the foundation to hold...
20:08 chris gmcharlt++
20:08 ricardo kr1shnan++
20:08 nengard yes, that will be one of the polls krishnan_
20:08 jransom well done Nicole
20:08 miromurr nengaard+++
20:08 gmcharlt nengard++
20:08 thd sekjal: I meant more something like marching disinterested voters to the poll.
20:08 slef gmcharlt: foundation||association does actually suggest some different things, although the koha project community has been a bit relaxed/sloppy in usage.
20:08 chris nengard++
20:08 jransom i would like an update for trustees
20:08 Ropuch nengard++
20:08 magnusenger nengard++
20:08 nengard okay - i call this meeting to a close for now :) and we will post the date/time of the next meeting to all appropriate outlets
20:08 sekjal thd:  ah, okay.  sorry.
20:09 slef jransom: when for?
20:09 jransom does anyone in the know feel like providing that briefing paper for me?
20:09 chris jransom: would the write up from this meeting suffice?
20:09 davi gmcharlt, some times direct democracy is better than management structure, See
20:09 miromurr left #koha
20:09 jransom putting an agenda tiogether for mailing this Thursday, meeting next Thursday
20:09 thd chris: why is this meeting not in logbot?
20:09 chris lives at liblime thd
20:09 owen thd:
20:09 chris it is however being logged
20:10 slef[…]=bubb4xrqs54qgpwx interesting results so far.  Will post to list later.
20:10 chris by logbot_backup to that url owen pasted
20:10 jransom i don't have the history to this or all the conversation
20:10 kr1shnan_ left #koha
20:10 jransom the back channel for want of a better term
20:10 savitra left #koha
20:10 chris unfortunately, the people who know cant say
20:10 slef jransom: can you email me questions/headings for the briefing paper and I'll see what I can do?  Us third sector orgs need to stick together ;-)
20:11 chris that was for jransom
20:11 jransom thanks slef - that would be great.
20:11 slef yes, as chris notes, be aware that I don't know all the answers
20:11 chris but someone can summarise all that has been said publicly
20:11 jransom
20:11 Ropuch Bah, i misvoted two questions
20:11 hdl_laptop left #koha
20:11 rachel what do you need jo?
20:12 dbirmingham left #koha
20:12 slef Ropuch: I think I can remove your old vote (oooh, evilness... but I promise not to do it in general)
20:12 hdl_laptop joined #koha
20:12 rosab a feel for how much work and responsibility we're asking the trustees to take
20:12 slef Ropuch: would you like me to?
20:13 jransom and why - as what has goine wrong or could go wrong to
20:13 jransom the path forward - various options.
20:13 Ropuch slef: no, let's not make a procedence
20:13 jransom i can verbally update them from today and say 'watch this space'
20:13 Colin_ joined #koha
20:13 slef Ropuch: good.  I can't figure out how!
20:13 Ropuch ;>
20:14 * rachel is quite hazy on how much work we'd be asking from hlt
20:14 jransom i think we all are :)
20:15 jransom ok - gotta go get ready forrwork (can't stay in my pjs all day !)
20:15 owen pjs++
20:15 Wizzyrea_ well, I think a potential structure is that they hold the assets, and we have a subcommittee that decides where to go
20:15 Wizzyrea_ community wise
20:15 chris yeah i need to eat something and go to work shortly
20:15 jransom yep
20:15 rachel ie i'd have thought not much
20:15 jransom and make the approach to ask for assets
20:15 thd chris: how much is missing from logbot?
20:15 Ropuch slef: the last 3 question can't be counted anyway - there are only 4 people who naswerd tehm
20:15 jransom in safekeeping for interim
20:15 slef ok. I'm going to get dinner (late!) but will return here a few times this evening.
20:16 gmcharlt thd: as it happens, there shouldn't be much more missing than a couple days
20:16 owen thd: logbot was never comprehensive, always popping out for a bite to eat or something like that
20:16 jransom how do i contact you slef?
20:16 slef Ropuch: not counted as strongly.  Wait until after it hits the lists.
20:16 jransom don't know your email or name or who you are :)
20:16 gmcharlt thd: between the old bot and the advent of the new one
20:16 Ropuch slef: i forgot to add "so far" ;>
20:16 slef jransom: see msg
20:16 jransom smiles
20:16 chris thd: yeah its all in logbot_backup (The past logs from logbot)
20:17 chris but logbot hasnt been here for weeks now
20:17 chris so logbot_backup has all the history
20:17 chris is that what you were asking?
20:17 * brendan gets a chance to read back now -- will post any comments to the wiki :)
20:18 jransom thanks everyone
20:18 vickiteal left #koha
20:18 chris yes thank you all, it was neat to have such a wide range of ppl from all over the world
20:18 ricardo Back to LibLime's KSF (sorry): does anyone still have some form of "open informal communication channel" to them (LibLime) in order to ask them about its charter / statutes?
20:19 chris_n perhaps one of their paying customers might
20:19 thd chris: What is tajoli?
20:19 chris eh?
20:19 chris tajoli is a person
20:19 owen ricardo: You could always try
20:19 chris zeno tajoli :)
20:20 thd oh a username
20:20 ricardo chris_n: It might, yes
20:20 paul_p2 ricardo: last time I asked joshua, I got something like "you've badly hurt me, I don't think I can trust you anymore, so I don't want to give any assets to KSF"
20:20 chris_n "open" is the operative word here
20:20 slef anyone want to try phoning him now?
20:20 paul_p2 is now known as paul_p
20:20 sekjal I've got a good relationship with the librarians at my institution's sister school; they're LibLime customers
20:21 sekjal roundabout, though
20:21 chris_n slef:I think that would be a job for whatever entity we end up under to do
20:21 thd sorry tajoli I thought that your name was an IRC abbreviation for a moment.
20:21 ricardo owen: Right... Bob Birchall from Calyx sent Joshua an e-mail (CCed to the Koha Mailing List), regarding "LibLime Enterprise Koha" (as you may have noticed). Let's see if Joshua answers that one
20:22 owen I know that there has been no formal mention of the KSF by LibLime to its customers.
20:22 Colin left #koha
20:22 ricardo owen: OK. Thanks for the info
20:22 Colin_ is now known as Colin
20:22 slef chris_n: what? phoning him?
20:24 tajoli No problem. I use quite often my surname as nikname
20:24 owen It remains to be seen what kind of collision "our Koha foundation" will have with "Liblime's Koha foundation"
20:24 Wizzyrea_ probably the only way to get our assets will be to convince them it was their idea to give them up
20:24 jdavidb wizzyrea++
20:24 slef owen: it probably won't be worse than SPI and the initial OSI
20:25 * sekjal just got Pragmatic Version Control Using Git from acquisitions
20:25 ricardo owen++
20:25 Ropuch sekjal: ;>
20:26 ricardo wizzyrea: Who knows... That might even be true in a sense (maybe LibLime is thinking about turning those assets to "their" KSF... and that may, in time, become "everyone's" KSF. Let's hope)
20:26 gmcharlt sekjal: just remember to let real patrons get their hands on it eventually ;)
20:27 * owen suspects gmcharlt has seen the bookshelf in his office
20:28 sekjal gmcharlt: nope, its totally mine.  we're a medical library, so I don't think I'll be doing anyone a disservice
20:28 ricardo sekjal: LOL
20:28 owen Thanks everyone for a lively meeting. Quittin' time for me.
20:28 owen left #koha
20:28 chris surgery via git
20:28 chris oh no, we have a bleeder
20:29 chris git checkout -b bleeding_artery
20:29 slef chris: you lop off your leg repeatedly, but can revert it?
20:29 paul_p bye everybody, time to go to bed for me (10:30PM in continental Europe)
20:29 chris git reset HEAD^
20:29 chris :)
20:29 * gmcharlt shudders to imagine what a merge would look like
20:29 chris lol
20:29 rachel bye paul
20:29 magnusenger git rebase HEAD --onto new_body
20:29 chris ok i need to go get ready for work
20:29 chris_n chris: lol
20:29 Wizzyrea_ lol@nerds
20:29 Wizzyrea_ love it
20:29 chris thanks all
20:29 sekjal thanks, chris!
20:30 slef gmcharlt: #include <joke/merge-branch-fork-child>
20:30 tajoli Bye Bye
20:30 cait time to go to bed - good night and have a nice day!
20:31 tajoli left #koha
20:31 cait left #koha
20:31 hdl_laptop left #koha
20:32 ricardo OK. I guess I'll leave now, as well. Take care anyone and congrats for organizing a great meeting!  :)
20:32 hdl_laptop joined #koha
20:32 ricardo s/anyone/everyone
20:32 ricardo left #koha
20:32 Colin Bye all
20:33 Colin left #koha
20:33 jwagner Bye everyone.
20:33 jdavidb take care, all.
20:33 jwagner left #koha
20:33 jdavidb left #koha
20:34 breeding left #koha
20:34 rosab bye all
20:34 CGI386 left #koha
20:35 mason cya sweetie
20:35 rachel hey mason
20:37 mason heya rach
20:38 nicomo left #koha
20:38 saschel joined #koha
20:42 chris hi saschel, just missed the meeting
20:42 saschel yep, guessed so. hope it was fruitfull. sorry to hear about the problems
20:42 chris i thought it was a good positive meeting
20:43 chris it will all be written up on the wiki
20:43 Wizzyrea_ yea, it was very civil
20:43 saschel can we see it archived somewhere
20:43 chris yes
20:43 saschel oh, ok wiki
20:43 Wizzyrea_ though, erm, the people who needed most to be here weren't
20:43 Wizzyrea_ :P
20:44 saschel OK. take care. Tnx for all your work.
20:44 chris 190 days and counting
20:44 chris thank you saschel
20:44 chris will be needing some translations shortly
20:44 saschel left #koha
20:44 chris for the poll, ill email the koha-translate list
20:44 chris too fast
20:44 sekjal wiki-ing it up now
20:44 chris sekjal++
20:45 magnusenger sekjal++
20:45 sekjal don't increment me until you see it; I've note used this wiki's syntax much before
20:45 chris ok back later
20:46 paul_p left #koha
20:47 * rachel goes to get day underway
20:53 thd slef: are you still there?
20:53 magnusenger left #koha
21:16 chris_n2 left #koha
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21:23 chris_n2 joined #koha
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21:46 chris back
21:46 Joann[…]t/1050048905.html
21:46 Joann Roy Tennant on Koha and Liblime
21:48 chris and joshua has emailed the list
21:49 dpavlin_ joined #koha
21:49 Joann yep
21:49 Joann Marshall Breeding and Roy Tennant both carry lots of influence ... I guess Joshua needed to respond positively, and quickly, to start damage control
21:50 chris yeah
21:50 nahuel joined #koha
21:51 Joann thanks everyone who has made notes, transcripts, polls etc from this morning.
21:51 chris_n2 words, words, and more wrods.... action is what is wanting here
21:52 chris_n2 LL needs to produce more than talk at this point to salvage their FOSS reputation imho
21:52 chris i just said that
21:52 chris i said "make your repo public then"
21:54 Wizzyrea_ joined #koha
21:55 chris id love to bury the pr in calls for make the code public
21:56 chris_n2 chris++
21:56 Ropuch ;>
21:56 * chris starts the ball rolling
21:56 chris well kyle did really
21:57 dpavlin left #koha
22:00 Ropuch chris: I'm curious about an answer from Joshua ;>
22:02 nahuel left #koha
22:03 chris i suspect silence would be the answer
22:03 Joann i like the idea of 65 people requesting him to make his Git repository public :)
22:03 Ropuch Me too :)
22:03 Joann off to write a reply
22:03 chris like i say, its 20 mins work
22:04 nahuel joined #koha
22:04 chris if it really is just a process change, why would that be a blocker
22:04 Ropuch Well, let's give him 24h
22:04 sh left #koha
22:04 gmcharlt Ropuch: no reason not to echo chris' call for a public git repo now
22:05 chris yeah let make its clear its not just me
22:05 chris since its easy to just ignore one person
22:06 chris he has practice ignoring me
22:06 chris :)
22:08 rhcl Good job on the meeting notes I think.
22:08 Wizzyrea_ left #koha
22:09 * chris_n2 adds his $0.02 worth
22:10 thd chris: what are we considering assigning to HLT for at least an interim stage?
22:11 chris the management of the name
22:11 thd Only LibLime could assign that.
22:12 chris yes
22:12 thd only they could assign it effectively.
22:12 chris but HLT is one organisation that would be well situated to ask
22:12 chris and probably be refused
22:12 chris but i would love to be wrong
22:12 Ropuch Ok, so I'll ask Joshua for public repo too
22:12 thd or ignored
22:13 chris cool Ropuch
22:13 richard liblime just need to see that it will be in their interest to do so
22:14 richard i think it is in their interest to do it
22:14 thd chris: I assume that those holding trademarks would also be invited to assign the trademarks.
22:14 chris yep
22:15 * chris is of course only speaking for himself
22:17 chris but thats what i would want the trust to hold in trust for the community
22:18 Joann HLT would be happy to do that I am certain
22:18 thd chris: Is there a presumption that people would be expected to assign copyrights even at the interim stage?
22:19 chris nope
22:19 chris i see copyright as a much less important issue when the code is GPL
22:19 thd Of course.
22:19 chris but people sure could if they wanted
22:20 chris Ropuch: your reply only went to me
22:20 chris was that intentional?
22:21 Ropuch chris: nope, I'll resent it righ away
22:21 thd Do you think that any developer could have ever been confused by the about link in the staff client which has no invoking clause but merely points to the license?
22:21 chris maybe but the code itself says it is GPL
22:21 chris people get confused by all sorts of things :)
22:22 thd The link also points to GPL.
22:22 thd The link however points to GPL 2 without at an "or later version (at your option)" invocation.
22:23 chris ahh
22:23 chris well the code itself has the or later
22:23 chris we should fix that link
22:23 chris is it the about page?
22:23 chris you could send a patch, or if you dont have time, i can
22:23 thd about : licences
22:24 thd You know better than I where to find the correct file to patch.
22:24 chris will do
22:24 chris about.tmpl btw :)
22:25 chris will send one today
22:25 * thd has never modified the templates directly
22:26 * thd has only modified the code which feeds the templates
22:27 Ropuch Guess it;s my time - good night #koha
22:28 chris good night Ropuch
22:28 chris thanks for coming along to the meeting
22:28 chris ps: the polish .po files have been updated ready for 3.0.4 if you want to do some translation :)
22:28 Ropuch Sure
22:29 thd I think that the point slef made on the mailing list in relation to the about : license is that taking that statement which links without qualification and combining it with those files which have no licensing header could give a less flexible interpretation.
22:29 thd ... to the options.
22:29 Ropuch I'm cleaning 3
22:29 nahuel left #koha
22:29 Ropuch .po file at the moment, but I'm kinda sleepy
22:29 chris it could, but only if you took those files out and didnt use them with the rest of koha
22:30 chris C4::Context is most definitely GPL2 or later
22:30 chris and everything uses it
22:30 chris you could of course take a file and make the case you didnt think it was gpl2 or later, but it couldnt use C4::Context
22:30 chris anyway, ill fix the about page
22:31 rhcl did I miss something? Piotr Wejman said in an email that the LL git will be opened.
22:31 thd Obviously, about : licences is what the user will see when treating the code files as the scary stuff that only programmers want to see.
22:32 chris yep
22:32 chris rhcl: well if it is just a process not philosophical change, then surely they will be
22:32 gmcharlt rhcl: I think that's actually more a request for LL to do same, just phrased hopefully
22:33 rhcl Yea, I was wondering if the wording wasnt' intended to be a request, but it makes for a presumed conclusion. :)
22:33 chris its actually quite a nice way to state it IMO :)
22:33 rhcl eya
22:33 rhcl yea
22:34 chris poland++
22:34 Ropuch Hm, List manipulating  confirmations are hardcoded into opac-shelves.tmpl
22:36 thd chris: Much as I would like it to be true, I think that your argument about C4:Context invokes with or later is insufficient.
22:36 Ropuch Oh, nevermind, I'll check it on bugzilla tomorrow
22:36 Ropuch g'night
22:36 chris im not sure why this is an issue, are you aware of someone distributed Koha in violation of the GPL2 ?
22:36 rhcl I need to go forage for food... LTR
22:36 rhcl is now known as rhcl_away
22:37 thd chris: No no, only I want to be clear that there is nothing to close off upgrading options.
22:37 chris ah
22:37 chris phew
22:37 chris i was starting to panic
22:37 thd chris: slef has merely cast possible doubt
22:37 chris slef hates agpl
22:37 chris :)
22:38 thd slef is also excellent at finding little problems
22:38 chris yep, im undecided about agpl myself, i could be swayed either way
22:38 chris lets see if liblime backs up their talk with action
22:39 thd I will answer each of slef's objections on the list.
22:39 chris cool
22:39 chris thank you thd
22:39 chris your well thought out emails are always appreciated
22:39 thd the only one that gives me pause in the possibility that there has been a GPL 2 only commit.
22:39 chris not sure if people tell you that enough
22:40 chris not that im aware of, if we find one we can ask it to be relincesed i guess
22:40 thd chris: Mostly I have the impression that they are simply ignored on grounds of their being too long.
22:40 chris i read them all, and appreciate the time and thought that has gone into them
22:40 thd s/too long/too long to sustain attention/
22:41 * chris_n2 agrees w/chris concerning thd 's emails
22:42 thd one thing I have been told is that by commenting at length I give the impression of ending the flow of discussion rather than giving something to discuss
22:42 chris thd: >GNUGeneral Public License, version 2 or later</a>  that ok?
22:42 chris (i added the or later bit)
22:43 thd You should use the formal language.
22:43 chris can you give me some, and ill cut and paste :)
22:43 thd It is in most Koha files in the header.
22:43 gmcharlt or straight fron the FSF
22:44 chris oh take the whole paragraph?
22:44 chris # Koha is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the
22:44 chris # terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software
22:44 chris # Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later
22:44 chris # version.
22:44 chris that bit?
22:44 gmcharlt yep
22:45 * chris is sorry he is so slow this morning, early wake up and not enough coffee
22:45 chris will do
22:45 thd This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
22:45 thd it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
22:45 thd the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
22:45 thd (at your option) any later version.
22:45 chris thanks
22:45 thd That language is actually at the end of the linked license.
22:46 thd However, if you do not invoke that language then it should not be necessarily understood to apply.
22:47 chris patch on it's way
22:47 thd I would like to win over slef before really advocating AGPL 3 as a decision the project should take.
22:47 thd Maybe slef will change my mind.
22:48 chris respectful discussion is always good
22:50 hdl_laptop left #koha
22:52 thd chris: The reason which I think that your argument about C4::Context is insufficient is that the license offered is still GPL 2 and anyone could then add a GPL 2 only patch such that the work as whole which included such a patch would be limited to GPL 2.
22:52 chris_n2 here is an interesting summary of licenses included in koha:
22:53 thd The option of your choice would have then been exercised by the modifier to limit downstream choice including that modification.
22:55 thd Similarly, the modifier could choose GPL 3 as long as there are no GPL 2 only commits making the work as a whole including the modification GPL 3 and removing GPL 2 as a choice for the user.
22:56 thd The user would always be able to remove the limiting modifications and exercise whatever license choices would be available without the limiting modifications.
22:57 chris true
22:58 thd chris: Which code uses the 4 clause BSD license, labeled BSD copyright in your link?
22:58 chris that was chris_n
22:58 chris and a grep should tell us
22:59 davi left #koha
23:00 gmcharlt almost certainly it's one of the JS libraries
23:00 thd gmcharlt:[…]ompatibleLicenses
23:01 thd the 4 clause BSD license, the one with the advertising clause has never been GPL compatible.
23:02 chris it could be one of the icon sets too
23:02 thd The advertising clause means that you have to name all the copyright holders in even a print ad in a journal.
23:03 ianB left #koha
23:03 thd there is also the 3 clause newer BSD license.
23:03 lamiette left #koha
23:04 thd Hardly anyone uses the 4 clause BSD license anymore so I am hoping that it is a mistake.
23:04 * gmcharlt wishes would point to the files it thinks are 4-clause BSD
23:04 chris yeah would make life easier
23:04 gmcharlt I mean, it could easily get it wrong
23:05 gmcharlt YUI copyright says
23:05 gmcharlt Copyright (c) 2008, Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
23:05 gmcharlt Code licensed under the BSD License:
23:05 gmcharlt
23:05 gmcharlt if you chase link, you get to the 3-clause BSD
23:05 chris yep
23:07 thd I think that the 4 clause license has been successfully eradicated from BSD distributions by rewriting code if the copyright holder could not be found to change the license.
23:11 * thd imagines the headline, "Koha developers forced to take back code for failing to follow the terms of the original BSD license dependencies".
23:13 chris hehe
23:14 chris i cant find it
23:14 chris not with ack anyway
23:16 chris yui, or jquery are the only 2 that mention BSD
23:16 chris and they are both not the old 4 clause
23:16 chris jquery is multi licensed in fact
23:26 thd yes, I can imagine that some multi-license code might have neglected to consider the newer BSD license.
23:26 * chris_n2 knows of at least one FOSS project that forked and re-wrote the entire code base in order to re-license.... :-P
23:27 thd Anything I have traced so far ends in a 3 clause license.
23:28 thd The trouble as Richard Stallman likes to identify that merely refering to the BSD license without being specific is ambiguous when both the 3 and 4 clause license are named the BSD license.
23:29 thd The 3 clause license was not issued with the name BSD 2 or BSD 3 clause.
23:30 chris_n2 fwiw, it appears that US law treats a domain name as a trademark with reference to disputes of ownership
23:31 thd ICAN treats the issue that way.
23:31 thd chris_n2: The US owns the internet of course :)
23:32 chris_n2 thd: lol :-O
23:32 chris_n2 and Al Gore invented it.... right?
23:32 chris_n2 of course that means that the entity that holds the US trademark rights to 'Koha' also holds the domain rights to 'koha.what-ever'
23:33 chris_n2 effectively
23:33 thd chris_n2: I saw something in my blog reader a few days ago about plans for the US government to take control of the internet in a national emergency.
23:33 chris_n2 let's not go there... here at least... >:-(
23:34 chris_n2 "national emergency" appears to be very loosely defined these days
23:34 thd chris_n2: ICAN policy has allowed trademark holders to obtain control of domains by asserting trademark rights.
23:35 thd chris_n2:  The original policy had been a stake your claim and keep it forever approach.
23:35 chris_n2 thd: I think they require subscription to a "dispute resolution procedure" when you register a domain
23:36 thd chris_n2: Fortunately, I seldom read those documents.
23:38 thd chris_n2: originally someone without any claim to the name could register before a company such as McDonald's had noticed the internet and then hold the late company to ransom.
23:39 chris_n2 I fully support the idea that an entity ought to own rights to a domain name clearly identified with their trademark
23:40 thd yes, domain squatting did not serve any good purpose for society as a whole.
23:41 thd The trouble is that trademark holders can also wrestle a domain away from those with a legitimate interest in a name but no trademark.
23:42 thd It costs too much for most people to defend against a large interest with lawyers.
23:42 chris_n2 and that is the crux of the matter really
23:42 chris_n2 $$$$
23:43 * chris_n2 finds it interesting that Koha has some 31,035 lines of comments in perl scripts according to ohloh's calculations
23:44 chris_n2 and 26,219 blank lines in perl scripts
23:44 thd white space is very important
23:44 thd white space can be as important as comments
23:45 gmcharlt even if you're not writing in python ;)
23:45 * chris_n2 imagines debugging compressed perl
23:45 nahuel joined #koha
23:46 chris_n2 and runs out of the room screaming
23:46 chris heh
23:46 thd gmcharlt: Does python ever intend to fix that problem?
23:46 thd s/python/Guido/
23:47 thd is now known as thd-foraging
23:47 chris i dont think they see it as a problem
23:47 gmcharlt yeah, pretty sure it's by Guido's design
23:48 thd-foraging required indentation certainly helps code readability.
23:50 gmcharlt indeed
23:56 nahuel left #koha

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