IRC log for #koha, 2009-06-20

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:01 hdl_laptop gmcharlt: Are you working on reconciliation ?
13:09 gmcharlt hdl_laptop: yes
13:11 hdl_laptop gmcharlt: bug me if you need any explanation
14:03 gmcharlt atz: re your circ patches, I think the approach is fine
14:03 gmcharlt I will be doing a bit more testing before I push them
14:15 Snow_Fox hey quick question
14:15 Snow_Fox how does koha handle overdue notices?
14:15 pianohacker Through a nightly cronjob
14:15 pianohacker Settings for each borrower category are under tools
14:18 SirStan What causes `/etc/koha/zebradb/zebra-biblios.cfg' to be generated?
14:18 gmcharlt SirStan: perl Makefile.PL, make install
14:19 pianohacker SirStan: That should be installed with the rest of Koha
14:19 SirStan it isnt
14:19 gmcharlt source is etc/zebradb/zebra-biblios.cfg
14:19 SirStan mm ../usr/local/src/koha-3.00.02/​etc/zebradb/zebra-biblios.cfg
14:19 gmcharlt you have to have chosen to instsall the Zebra config files when you go through the Makefile.PL questions
14:19 SirStan ah.
14:32 Snow_Fox hey instead of recieving a email about user over due notices is there a way to dump that info to a file for processing for print jobs?
14:32 pianohacker Snow_Fox: I think there's a CSV output option
14:32 Snow_Fox kk thankyou
14:33 jwagner Snow_Fox, we are working on an enhancement for a client to dump notices to an HTML file for people without email addresses.  Then that file can be called up in the browser and printed.
14:46 rhcl @seen chris
14:46 munin rhcl: chris was last seen in #koha 5 hours, 37 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <chris> evening
14:48 pianohacker He usually comes in around 1-2:00 mountain time (7-8:00 AM his time)
14:52 |Lupin| hello there !
14:52 pianohacker morning
14:53 |Lupin| can't stay very ong but I'd like to ask if someone could explain what biblio, biblioitem and item are or perhaps point to relevant documentation ?
14:53 |Lupin| hi pianohacker
14:54 pianohacker |Lupin|: biblio and biblioitem both contain information about the whole record (used to be more separate; they will be merged soon), and items contains information about single items
14:56 |Lupin| pianohacker: ah, so there will be only two things ultimately, biblio which is generic bibliographic data, and biblio-item which conains informaton specific to each book. Right ?
14:56 pianohacker Well, there'll be biblio, which contains information on each book, and items, which contains information each copy
14:57 pianohacker *on each copy
14:57 pianohacker If I have five copies of Moby Dick, there'll be one entry in biblio and five entries in items
14:57 |Lupin| pianohacker: okay, thanks, I think I got it.
14:57 pianohacker Currently, there would be one entry in biblio, one entry in biblioitems and five entries in items
14:58 pianohacker Cool; it's weird, took me some time to get used to
14:58 |Lupin| pianohacker: now imagine you have a book but in several formats. Would it be correct to use one item entry for each of them ?
14:58 Lybrarian at Kohacon, didn't they say biblioitems is redundant and going away soon?
14:58 pianohacker Lybrarian: Yup, will be merged into biblio
14:59 Lybrarian Lupin different formats should have different bib records
14:59 pianohacker |Lupin|: That really depends on the librarie's policy
14:59 |Lupin| are there some recommandations about it ?
15:00 |Lupin| Lybrarian: but then they should be generated automatically by the system...
15:00 pianohacker I'd go with what Lybrarian said, and then try combining certain very similar formats and seeing how it works for you
15:00 pianohacker For instance, at our library, if we have the game X-men legends for the Xbox and PS2, we have one bib for both of them
15:01 |Lupin| I thought it would be okay to have only one record with multiple 852 unimarc fields...
15:01 Lybrarian Cataloging decisions like that are up  to the library - we try to think in terms of what's best for the patron trying to place an item on hold...if they want the DVD and not the VHS, there need to be 2 separate bib records
15:02 wizzyrea lybrarian++
15:02 pianohacker Lybrarian: Ahh, since you might have multiple copies of each, and Koha currently does not allow you to restrict the hold to multiple items ?
15:05 |Lupin| I see
15:05 |Lupin| will have to experiment
15:06 |Lupin| thanks anyway for having clarified the item/bibli/biblioitem issue !
15:06 |Lupin| take care all and have a nice week-end. be !
15:19 Elwell_ ditto.
15:24 Lybrarian pianohacker we are sponsoring an enhancement to allow multiple item-level holds (from the staff client)
15:24 Lybrarian but normally, no we do not allow patrons to pick and choose which item they want to place on hold - they're stuck with 'next available'
15:24 wizzyrea question: what data is supposed to show in the reserve/ existing holds "notes" column?
15:25 wizzyrea we don't show any data at all, which is curious
15:25 pianohacker wizzyrea: I would think the note field that is filled in when you place the hold </maybenotthismightbeabug>
15:25 wizzyrea was going to file a bug/make a suggestion on what to put there
15:26 gmcharlt wizzyrea: there is a reserves.reservesnotes column
15:26 wizzyrea nm, it's working I"m dumb :)
15:26 wizzyrea turns out nobody puts in notes :P
15:26 wizzyrea hence, no data
16:45 SirStan Where does koha put its conf file after make install?
16:45 SirStan I ask; because it didnt seem to put it anywhere.
16:46 SirStan or maybe i symlinked the /etc/koha dir.
16:46 SirStan bad user.
16:50 wizzyrea joetho: mibbit doesn't work with freenode anymore
16:50 wizzyrea see our new link at
16:50 wizzyrea you will hate this.
16:51 joetho I just turned my computer on
16:51 joetho go easy on me
16:51 pianohacker Hmm. That's actually much nicer than mibbit, in my eyes
16:52 pianohacker *to my eyes? I dunno
16:55 SirStan that page makes me think microsoft/shaerpoint
16:55 SirStan or whatever joomla|drupla cms has that same blue border theme
17:09 jdavidb Howdy, gmcharlt.  :)
17:10 gmcharlt hi jdavidb
17:14 SirStan shouldnt zebrasrv -c /etc/koha/koha-conf.xml start zerbra?
17:14 pianohacker zebrasrv -f .../koha-conf.xml
17:15 SirStan ah
17:43 wizzyrea @bug 3345
17:43 munin wizzyrea: Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3345 normal, P5, ---,, NEW, Return All items on patron detail does not initiate transfer of holds
17:43 wizzyrea anybody have ideas on how to handle that?
17:43 gmcharlt wizzyrea: refactoring returns code
17:44 gmcharlt so that events that should be triggered by the return of an item
17:44 gmcharlt are handing lower down in the API
17:44 gmcharlt and tweaking the UI to deal with multiple return messages
17:44 atz a moderately large project
17:45 gmcharlt smaller would be having code detect when a return would trigger such a message
17:45 pianohacker Enhancement sponsorship on this could involve chipping in for the necessary lobotomy for the developer in question
17:45 gmcharlt and have it either block such returns (requiring the operator to handle them one at a time)
17:46 gmcharlt or (I suppose) have it spawn a bunch of popup windows, each handling an individual return for such items
17:46 pianohacker gmcharlt: The latter is roughly the approach I took with ajaxcirc, seemed to work well
17:47 gmcharlt or, possibly, disable return all from the patron details page, on the theory that you should be scanning each item barcode anyway just to make sure that the patron has in fact returned all of their items ;)
17:50 wizzyrea YES, see that's what I was thinking
17:50 wizzyrea re: disable
17:50 wizzyrea <whine>"but winnebago does it!!"</whine>
17:51 pianohacker Hmm. First result for winnebago was a mailing list post about migrating away from it
17:51 pianohacker </badsign>
17:51 wizzyrea ikorite
17:51 wizzyrea kno*
17:52 atz you could have it post to a returns page that just queues the items from details while prompting them to scan
17:52 pianohacker Thus requiring them to scan, but still allowing multiple returns
17:52 atz basically the same a link to returns w/ a fancy add on of what you expect to get through... still not a magical as they would want, i'm sure
17:53 atz *same as
17:53 wizzyrea well to me, I don't think it SHOULD work, ad here's why:
17:53 wizzyrea 1. winnebago never had to deal with transfers, so you would have never had this problem
17:54 wizzyrea 2. staff should look at the screen when returning items to make sure the right thing is getting returned
17:54 atz good points
17:54 wizzyrea 3. almost any way that you fix it is going to either trade human clock cycles for machine ones, or machine cycles for human ones
17:55 wizzyrea so you might not gain anything
17:55 gmcharlt human clock cycles are almost always more valuable
17:55 atz "let teh machine handle it! teh machine is majickal!"
17:56 wizzyrea nah, it's not sore for me
17:56 atz i think 1 and 2 are good enough arguments
17:56 wizzyrea in my experience the transition to koha is much harder for libraries that are already automated
17:57 wizzyrea because you get the "but x did it this way and that's what I know so that's what I want"
17:57 atz i imagine it is hardest for libraries that have seen exactly one automation system
17:57 atz if they've already migrated 5 times in 10 years, they probably dont care anymore
17:57 pianohacker @quote add < wizzyrea> in my experience the transition to koha is much harder for libraries that are already automated
17:57 munin pianohacker: The operation succeeded.  Quote #8 added.
17:57 wizzyrea atz++ yes, that has been our experience
17:58 atz it's hard to forget your first time.
17:59 atz ah... multiLIS
17:59 gmcharlt Dynix Classic for me
18:01 Sharon The issue is time - when you have a patron bringing in a stack of 50 items...what's the most efficient way to check them in?
18:02 atz Sharon... truncate issues table.
18:02 pianohacker Switch to RFID
18:02 atz boom.  they're checked in.
18:02 pianohacker UPDATE items SET onloan = ''
18:02 Sharon I don't know what that means. I'm just trying to put in some practicality
18:02 atz Sharon: the question is "how do you know it's 50 items"?
18:03 atz you still have to scan each item (or RFID it) to know what you have
18:03 Sharon when you check in the first, it pulls up the patron's record, showing you the other 49 they might be bringing back.  Then you can figure out how to do a mass check in
18:03 Sharon spit out the exceptions (transfers and holds) for scanning
18:04 atz you need to scan them or you don't know what they really are
18:04 atz you'll get books from other libraries or the patron's private books
18:05 Sharon yes, that's the bug
18:06 atz i'm sure to a small library, it seems like "oh, I checked those out to Sam last week, I know what they are"
18:06 atz but it doesn't scale
18:10 wizzyrea ok how about this
18:10 wizzyrea I had a thought
18:11 wizzyrea (dangerous I know)
18:11 wizzyrea what if
18:11 wizzyrea instead of processing all checkins one at a time you did it kind of like winnebago where you scan them all (like, into a form) and then say "submit"
18:12 wizzyrea and it processes all at once, checks in the ones it can, but gives you a printed output of items that require further attention
18:12 atz that would be doable
18:12 wizzyrea sort of how the rfid in basehor works
18:12 atz still a moderately large project
18:12 wizzyrea similar idea
18:14 wizzyrea dk, I'd have to see that implemented to see if I liked it... I mean, I've worked in winnebago and I always thought it was stupid how that checkin worked, but sharon has some good points about how it works practically when in a library
18:14 wizzyrea and the workflow of that might actually be a little better
18:14 wizzyrea and would cost fewer requests to the server, too
18:14 wizzyrea at least web requests
18:18 wizzyrea atz: I have no doubt that would be a large project. and it would totally change how it works, which could be good or bad, depending on your viewpoint.
18:18 atz the hellish part would be keeping it and regular returns page in sync
18:18 wizzyrea or eliminate that functionality from the details page, and keep it all on the returns page
18:19 wizzyrea but there's probably a  reason not to do that
18:19 wizzyrea actually, the same library that pointed out the problem with return all had that suggestion
18:20 wizzyrea put more of the functionality on the circulation pages
18:21 wizzyrea dk, thanks for the discussion.
18:21 wizzyrea :)
18:35 pianohacker brb
18:46 joetho Having to check in 50 books instantly (or close to instantly);  Is this a reasonable thing to ask of an ILS?
18:48 joetho I like the idea of a "bulk check-in button" allowing you to scan in a bunch of books (with maybe a numerical limit) and preview the results before hitting "submit"
18:48 joetho a different process than a regular individual checkin
18:49 joetho that would check in the regular ones, and generate an "action window" or something for the ones that have holds, fines, etc
18:52 Snow_Fox anyone know off the top of there head what the patron photo requirements are for koha?
18:55 atz joetho: it's not a technical problem... it's that you don't really know what you are asking the ILS to do.
18:55 atz it's list of 50 books may more may not have anything to do with the 50 books in front of you
18:55 atz *its
18:56 atz but other than that, the bulk returns idea is feasible.  a "chunk" of returns at once instead of 1 at a time.
18:56 atz "nearline" circ
18:58 joetho I agree it is not a technical problem. This may be an example of a staff workflow problem looking for a technical solution
18:59 SirStan Does KOHA have a way to scan in 50 barcodes and mark them all "in" ?
18:59 SirStan if no -> its a technical problem.
18:59 atz yes, offline circ.
18:59 Sharon During summer reading, people are taking and leaving dozens of books all at once, there are long lines and overworked staff.  Anything that can make checking in items easier, would be a welcome enhancement to any ILS
18:59 Sharon if offline circ worked...
19:00 SirStan heh
19:00 Sharon I got lunch, I'm ready to argue, I mean discuss, some more
19:07 Snow_Fox im having problems finding the image requirements for patron photos anyone know where i can find this?
19:16 wizzyrea joetho: winnebago didn't make the distinction between regular checkins and mass checkins
19:16 wizzyrea all checkins were mass checkins, technically
19:17 wizzyrea BUT they didn't have to deal with transfers, either
19:17 chris morning
19:17 wizzyrea mornin chris
19:20 atz Snow_Fox: check under the patron image upload tool (or its help)?
19:37 danny hey chris
19:39 chris heya danny
19:42 rhcl hey chris, gimme a sec
19:43 Snow_Fox atz:  i think i found the details i need, curious about what the file size should prob be set too, i would imagine smaller better due to load times and storage
19:44 rhcl chris: are you close to New Plymouth?[…]ase-kete-features
19:45 chris nope
19:45 chris but i live 3 blocks away from walter :)
19:45 chris and actually helped interview him when he applied for a job at katipo
19:45 rhcl well, catch a ride with him. :)
19:45 chris nz is a small place :)
19:46 gmcharlt ... if not necessarily as compact as it could be ;)
19:46 chris :)
19:49 chris mason also used to be a sysadmin/system support dude at the libraries up near new plymouth (and worked with me and walter at katipo too)
19:50 chris my wife (who is from pittsburgh originally) likes to say there is only 2 degrees of separation in nz, not 6
19:50 rhcl I guess I have the <possibly very foreign> idea that the fishing must be great in NZ.
19:50 chris it is pretty good
19:50 wizzyrea hm... so does that mean you know someone who knows peter jackson?
19:50 chris yes
19:50 wizzyrea well there you go
19:51 chris 2 people at my work worked at weta
19:51 chris rhcl: rich people fly here to do trout fishing
19:51 chris and there is some good deep sea fishing too
19:51 rhcl so do poor people fly there to do carp fishing?
19:52 rhcl :)
19:52 chris hehe they row or swim
19:52 rhcl Ah, the slow boat...
19:52 chris i dont think we have carp, except as pests
19:53 chris some idiots release some koi carp
19:53 wizzyrea ops
19:53 wizzyrea oops
19:53 rhcl well, we have a lot here, and they are pests--compete with native species
19:53 chris yeah, they are trying to eradicate them here, for the same reason
20:06 chris mmm kahu is trying to stick a drumstick in my ear
20:06 chris have a drum kit in the lounge wasnt the best idea
20:09 wizzyrea kids++
20:21 pianohacker We haven't gone to this good mexican restaurant in a while...
20:23 wizzyrea @quote add pianohacker ponders drumstick->ear as a method of food acquisition...We haven't gone to this good mexican restaurant in a while...
20:23 munin wizzyrea: The operation succeeded.  Quote #9 added.
20:24 pianohacker quoteback!
20:24 wizzyrea @quote random
20:24 munin wizzyrea: Quote #8: "< wizzyrea> in my experience the transition to koha is much harder for libraries that are already automated" (added by pianohacker at 05:57 PM, June 19, 2009)
20:24 wizzyrea oh snap
20:25 chris back
20:26 chris wiggles dvd, toast and an apple .. sorted for approx 7 minutes
20:27 SirStan @quote add <gmcharlt> you know, you got a bad deal if you sold your soul for a TODO list ;)
20:27 munin SirStan: Error: You must be registered to use this command. If you are already registered, you must either identify (using the identify command) or add a hostmask matching your current hostmask (using the "hostmask add" command).
20:34 chris @quote random
20:34 munin chris: Quote #6: "gmcharlt: kf: hold requests are a plot to sell more aspirin ;)" (added by wizzyrea at 04:13 PM, June 16, 2009)
20:34 chris heh
20:34 wizzyrea I think that a lot, actually
20:39 danny @google fight monday friday
20:39 munin danny: friday: 116000000, monday: 103000000
20:39 danny friday++
20:40 chris hmm 11 hours till we get our revenge on the french rugby team
20:40 chris @wunder wellington, new zealand
20:40 munin chris: The current temperature in Wellington, New Zealand is 9.0°C (8:25 AM NZST on June 20, 2009). Conditions: Rain Showers. Humidity: 82%. Dew Point: 6.0°C. Windchill: 4.0°C. Pressure: 30.39 in 1029 hPa (Steady).
20:41 chris man for once im glad i didnt get tickets
20:41 wizzyrea ew, cold
20:41 chris its gonna be freezing at the stadium
20:41 wizzyrea it's as nasty cold there as it is nasty hot here
20:41 wizzyrea @wunder Lawrence, KS
20:41 munin wizzyrea: The current temperature in Channel 6 Downtown, Lawrence, Kansas is 30.4°C (3:41 PM CDT on June 19, 2009). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 57%. Dew Point: 21.0°C. Pressure: 29.64 in 1003.6 hPa (Steady).
20:41 chris its a wet cold today, i hate cold + wind + rain
20:41 chris each of them by themselves is fine .. combine them, and it sux
20:42 chris that is pretty hot
20:42 wizzyrea yesterday was hotter
20:42 wizzyrea 32-34
20:43 chris 22-28 is nice
20:43 chris once it starts getting over that
20:43 chris i dont enjoy it much
20:47 chris rhcl: would you like me to get walter to give me a demo of 1.3 and i write up a summary for ya?
21:30 chris ok, im gonna take kahu to gmnastics, which consists of daddy laughing hysterically as kahu dives into the big foam pit ... then me climbing in to get him out
21:30 chris back later
22:27 pianohacker @seen Jo
22:27 munin pianohacker: Jo was last seen in #koha 18 hours, 6 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <Jo> well we are trying ..
06:57 brendan @wunder santa barbara, ca
06:57 munin brendan: The current temperature in Near Mission - TC, Santa Barbara, California is 16.6°C (11:56 PM PDT on June 19, 2009). Conditions: Haze. Humidity: 76%. Dew Point: 12.0°C. Pressure: 29.79 in 1008.7 hPa (Rising).
06:57 brendan well that is warmer than
06:57 brendan @wunder wellington, NZ
06:57 munin brendan: The current temperature in Wellington, New Zealand is 9.0°C (6:00 PM NZST on June 20, 2009). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 87%. Dew Point: 7.0°C. Windchill: 4.0°C. Pressure: 30.45 in 1031 hPa (Steady).
06:58 brendan :)
07:00 si it's relatively unpleasant here in Wellington NZ
07:00 si must be a big rugby came on tonight
07:00 si game, even
07:00 brendan hey si -- been awhile since we've chatted
07:00 si hey inded
07:00 si how did the kohacon go?
07:00 brendan I think chris was saying that he was glad he didn't get tickets this time
07:01 brendan due to the weather there
07:01 brendan Kohacon -- was an excellent time
07:02 si I'm glad to hear it
11:18 chris hmm

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