IRC log for #koha, 2008-08-05

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
14:21 johnny haha, true
14:47 danny in trying to understand koha better, I am curious as to the reasoning behind having the templates include the html coding + language, instead of just having all of the wording become variables and then including like a language file?
14:48 danny it seems like with the way it is currently setup if I make a html coding change to an en template, that same change would need to be made to a fr template, is that true?
14:48 owen danny: you're not the first to ask the question
14:48 hdl danny: yes
14:49 hdl But there is a process that does it automatically
14:49 danny oh really? that is good
14:50 paul misc/translator/
14:51 owen paul, is there anything on the wiki describing the process?
14:52 owen There is a howtotranslatekoha page, but it's not really what it sounds like:[…]owtotranslatekoha
14:52 danny paul: ah I see, ok thank you
14:53 owen danny, we do it this way with Koha to make it easier for the developers to work on the templates. Devs get real language strings in the template when editing rather than variable names they'd have to look up elsewhere
14:53 owen At least that's the rationale I recall
14:54 danny hehe
14:54 danny that is true
14:57 danny and if I have questions on some usability/template design questions, is it best to ask here or the koha-devel list?
14:58 owen Either place. Try here first and mail the list if you don't get a good answer or want to get more of a consensus.
14:59 danny mostly concerning why certain things are setup they way they are and if they can be changed or not
14:59 danny ok sounds good
14:59 owen I'm eager to hear any questions you've got
15:00 danny ok they are all about really little specific things
15:00 danny like when modifying a Child Patron from the staff side, there is a drop down list for Relationship under Guarantor information
15:01 danny there can be many more options under relationship then father/mother
15:01 paul yes, that's why it's defined in a syspref ;-)
15:01 danny ah
15:02 owen borrowerRelationship
15:02 danny ok I see it, thanks
15:15 nengard danny, this may be of help to you:[…].com/koha-manual/
15:15 danny ok i'll take a look at it, thanks
15:16 gmcharlt hi liz-nekls
15:18 nengard hiya liz-nekls
15:47 liz-nekls hola chica did you have a good weekend?
15:53 nengard can someone tell me if this is right?
15:53 nengard AutomaticItemReturn
15:53 nengard Defines if Koha will automatically transfer an item to to its home branch, or not.
15:53 nengard Default Value: ON
15:53 nengard Values:
15:53 nengard    * ON = Items checked in at a location other than the home branch specified in their record will be set as in transit to their home location.
15:53 nengard          o IMPORTANT: This assumes you know what needs to be transferred, and initiates the transfer automatically without showing a notification message.
15:54 nengard    * OFF = Items will not be set as in transit to their home location, instead the item will remain at the library that checked the item.  The check in location will show on the item record as the 'holding' location (like a temp location)
15:54 nengard liz-nekls - i did have a nice weekend, we went to hershey, PA and now i'm going through my training notes to update documentation :)
15:54 liz-nekls nengard-nice
15:55 liz-nekls nengard did you get chocolate?
15:55 nengard liz-nekls i went to an SLA meeting and scientists from hershey were there and they gave us free samples ;) yum
15:55 liz-nekls mmm awesome
16:04 nengard can someone fill in the ?? on this page for me - just tell me what to put and I'll put it in:[…]Authorized-Values
16:06 hdl (For HINGS_*
16:06 hdl )=
16:07 nengard hdl - yeah those are the ones that i can't even guess about
16:09 owen The wiki at least gives a better description of those codes:[…]bliographic_items
16:12 nengard owen thanks - i added that info to my document
16:25 mc hello all
16:25 mc i read the Zeno's message
16:26 mc as there is no object i seen on the koha API, i'm trying to figure out how a UML diagram can help ?
16:26 mc any idea ?
16:26 mc ( E/R diagram can be really usefull, btw )
16:27 acmoore mc: I can see it being useful, too, but probably really difficult to do on the current Koha code.
16:30 mc hmm ... sorry for my poor english: i'm trying to tell that i think is quiet useless as there is no diagram to draw
16:30 mc (i think about class diagram : action diagram is just impossible to render automatically)
16:32 mc (or perhaps it's just an UML view of the schema ... so why not just E/R? )
16:33 acmoore mc: Yes, I think I follow you. we don't really have any objects, so you can't really make a model for it.
16:34 acmoore mc: But, perhaps something useful will come out of it. It doesn't really cost the rest of us much to see how they do, so I can't object.
16:36 mc that's why i shut up for now
16:36 paul write a mail to tell your questions & doubts.
16:36 mc but peraps there is better to do ...
16:36 mc paul, ok
16:36 paul at least, they will realize it will not be that easy to get something really usefull
16:36 mc i just wanted to know if i was just wrong :)
16:37 mc yep
16:37 mc you're right
17:00 mc someone knows how to translate "API metier" ?
17:00 mc that means: API that provides a business abstraction
17:07 hdl professional API
17:07 cnighs any ddc experts, semi-experts, or just plain non-experts w/some kind of ddc experience around?
17:11 nengard cnighs they use ddc at nekls- liz-nekls do you know anything that can help?
17:43 sawariwap anyone awake?
17:45 atz yep
17:45 danny somewhat awake =)
17:46 qiqo hi atz and danny
17:47 qiqo ive just upgraded to rc1
17:47 qiqo from 2.2 here
17:47 qiqo and im having trouble running the zebraserver
17:47 qiqo well the server is running
17:47 qiqo but when i perform search, nothing is reflected
17:47 mc hdl, thx (i just noticed your reply)
17:47 kados qiqo: 2.2 doesn't use zebra
17:47 qiqo i have 300 bilio records
17:47 kados qiqo: you need 3.0
17:47 qiqo yeah... so i upgraded to 3.0
17:47 qiqo im using RC1 now
17:49 qiqo also i guess zebra is running
17:49 qiqo root      6128  0.0  0.7  39336  7912 pts/0    T    01:33   0:00 zebrasrv -f /etc/koha/koha-conf.xml
17:51 qiqo hmm
17:52 qiqo can anyone help me throug ssh?
17:52 qiqo i think i got the indexing wrong
17:59 ryan qiqo: you ran misc/migration_tools/rebuild_zebra -b ?
18:04 qiqo yup
18:04 qiqo ran it
18:04 qiqo 02:03:05-05/08 zebraidx(6331) [log] zebra_stop: 0.03 0.00 0.00
18:05 qiqo ====================
18:05 qiqo CLEANING
18:05 liz-nekls nengard - sorry I was afk
18:05 liz-nekls what was the question?
18:05 qiqo ====================
18:05 qiqo those are the last lines after the execution
18:05 qiqo but im having these errors: 02:03:05-05/08 zebraidx(6329) [warn] Record didn't contain match fields in (bib1,Local-number)
18:05 nengard np
18:08 qiqo hmm
07:23 johnny good morning
07:36 mc hello
07:36 mc i just read the chris post on packaging koha on hardy
07:36 mc chris++
07:37 mc chris: just one point: you didn't explain how to add the GPG key for your repo
09:04 chris ahh sorry
09:04 chris you can get it from biglumber
09:04 chris ill update the post
09:04 paul hi chris
09:05 chris hi paul
09:06 paul chris: say hello to johnny the new biblibrios
09:06 paul (since yesterday)
09:08 chris hi johnny :)
09:09 chris does he work in the marseille office with you paul?
09:09 paul yep
09:09 paul we are 3 : me, osaury & johnny
09:14 chris excellent
09:20 chris mc: updated the post
09:21 paul chris: do your company use a perl framework for devs ? like catalyst. mc would be interested to know I'm sure
09:21 chris we use all sorts of different things
09:21 paul because he asked us some questions about using a framework for Koha. I have no experience. Do you have some ?
09:22 chris generally they are good for prototyping
09:22 paul he spoke of moose for example
09:22 paul (which is not really a framework, I agree)
09:22 chris but often the ease of programming, is offset by the performance hit
09:23 chris the main thing i dont like about catalyst for example, is it uses Class::DBI
09:24 paul mc: beeepp !!!!
09:24 chris so instead we use the things we like about it, like the MVC model, and template toolkit
09:24 chris but prefer to be able to tweak the sql, for performance reasons
09:25 chris for things like the SRS (running the .nz registry) and etc .. performance is very important
09:25 mc oops
09:25 mc sorry
09:26 chris so often we will prototype with a framework, or for small apps, or sites use it
09:26 chris but for big production sites, we prefer to get our hands a bit more dirty :-)
09:26 mc i read
09:26 mc 50%
09:27 chris :)
09:27 mc 80%
09:27 mc 100%
09:27 mc ok
09:27 mc on of the thing i love in catalyst is that there is no need to use anything
09:28 mc for example: Class::DBI can speed the dev, but you can feel free to rewrite your own M from scratch
09:29 chris yep, thats we end up doing
09:29 mc about performances: i just wanted to notice that the fact to don't use a framework introduce bugs (as this i have fixed) that are very bad for performances
09:30 mc a good separation of the M can drive us to a design of a generic DBI::Class M
09:30 mc pro:
09:31 mc - techno independant
09:31 mc - easy to read and understand (new conributors will appreciate)
09:31 mc and if sql tweaks possible:
09:32 chris it depends on the framework
09:32 mc a special Model::MYSQL::InSteroid
09:32 chris if we just talk about catalyst then i mostly agree
09:32 chris but there are some frameworks that are no where near as nice
09:32 chris like maypole, or tangram
09:33 chris so it has to be a *good* framework, not just any framework
09:33 mc i talk about catalyst. I love concepts of Jifty but there is too much use of mason
09:33 chris mason has some very good things
09:33 chris it depends on the structure of your website
09:33 johnny hey chris
09:33 mc and i don't like masson 'cuz it embeded perl code
09:33 chris if you can make use of the strong inheritance that mason has
09:34 mc so mason is just a kind of php++ for me
09:34 mc i don't like to see perl code in a template
09:34 chris you dont have to use it like that
09:35 chris if you build your components right
09:35 mc sure ... but you can ... so be sure someone will :)
09:35 chris you can totally separate the two
09:35 chris yeah, but you can do anything in perl .. it doesnt make perl bad :)
09:35 mc touched! i shut up :)
09:36 chris if i was writing koha now
09:36 chris from scratch, i would use either catalyst
09:37 chris or maybe rails
09:37 chris but in 99, neither existed :)
09:37 johnny eh, what about django? ☺
09:37 mc sure: i don't beat on koha team! koha is just a good piece of software in regard of is history
09:38 chris or maybe django
09:38 mc johnny, get out of there!
09:38 mc ;)
09:38 chris or erlang
09:38 chris :)
09:38 mc :(
09:38 johnny ahhaha
09:38 mc i hope you're kidding
09:39 chris you dont like the idea of a distributed, concurrent koha? ;-)
09:39 mc johnny, if we have to change for any other language (i'm not sure it's a good idea), we have to choose a good one
09:39 chris yeah i am, if i did it erlang .. we'd have no developers :)
09:39 mc chris, well ... i don't like the idea there is no more new contrib
09:39 mc sure
09:39 chris ive been playing with pugs, and perl6
09:40 mc me too
09:40 mc that's one more point for moose:
09:40 chris actually my friend andy wrote a good post about this
09:40 chris ill find it
09:40 mc the basics are close
09:41 chris[…]e-about-perl.html
09:43 mc chris, what about haskell ?
09:43 mc ;)
09:45 chris heh
09:45 chris i did haskell at university
09:45 chris wrote a compiler in it
09:45 chris we could go really lowlevel, and do machine code
09:45 chris write even
09:47 johnny mc: well, he was mentioning rails...
09:47 mc johnny, rails is in ruby
09:47 johnny but yeah, i couldn't agree more
09:47 johnny yeah, it is
09:49 mc i read a book on it and i'm very attracted by the level of abstraction
09:49 mc i love the concept but have no time to practice :(
09:49 mc 'I mean, show them a thousand line Java file or a 10 line Perl program.'
09:49 chris heh
09:50 mc that's not right when you correctly use some java frameworks with very powerfull concepts as annotations
09:50 mc because those tools doesn't exists in perl
09:51 mc but the problem is that you need some 10 years java developpers to do so
09:51 chris and it still wont get finished
09:51 mc yep
09:52 mc sure
09:52 mc another problem is that it's almost impossible to do simple things with simple ways with those java frameworks
09:55 chris yep
10:00 mc why i dream about catalyst/TT2:
10:01 mc - better abstraction
10:01 mc - use of existing wheels: less code
10:01 mc (so less bugs)
10:02 mc - Easier way to organize the code (even the templates, using vmethods, wrappers, ... )
10:02 mc s/abstraction/isolation/
10:03 mc abstraction needs design : i spoke about all of it because i'm very afraid for the Zeno's Student
10:04 chris its a good learning experience
10:05 mc johnny, don't tell again you like things like python on this chan because logs are public: u'll ruin your carrieer !
10:05 chris but i would suggest the student works toward creating a uml of how it could work
10:06 mc that's what i propose in my answer on the list
10:06 mc oops ... you restart apache2 in the postinst ?
10:06 chris yep
10:07 chris well, reload
10:07 mc ooh ... ok
10:07 mc i would be quiet furious if i was sysop and if a package install/update restarts my server
10:07 chris as well as linking the config into sites-enabled (before)
10:08 chris theres lots that do
10:08 mc chris, so you create a default site ?
10:09 chris at the moment
10:09 mc i thought about it when i wrote my automator
10:09 mc but now i think it's not a good idea
10:09 chris its just for testing the package
10:09 mc because i don't handle multiple sites
10:09 mc ok
10:10 chris next step is writing the preinst file that uses debconf to get values from the user
10:10 mc but i think we (vincent, MJ, ...) have to think about what we could expect from a koha package
10:10 mc ohh
10:11 chris but for now, you can install it and have a single site koha up and running pretty fast
10:12 chris if i do it right
10:12 chris then you could do dpkg-reconfigure libkoha-perl
10:13 chris and add another koha site
10:13 chris but ill think about that more tomorrow
10:15 chris hmm am i right, is there a biblibrio in toulon?
10:24 paul chris: no, there is none. Although Marseille is 50km from  Toulon
10:25 chris ahhh
10:25 chris Toulon has been in the news here lots lately, because of the rugby team, and the nzer leaving his rugby league club to go play there
10:26 paul right. Marseille is THE soccer city. And Toulon a Rugby city.
10:27 mc toulon ?
10:27 mc chris, don't you think about Toulouse ?
10:29 paul mc: I don't think so :[…]49_128_48961.html
10:29 chris
10:29 chris (the bonus of working on a newspaper site, i have to read the news hehe)
10:29 paul lol
10:30 mc an all black in france! cool!
10:30 mc toulon will learn the aka ?
10:30 chris they already have the ex captain of the all blacks as their coach :)
10:30 chris tana umaga .. he is from wellington too
10:31 mc i remember that i was a child the first time my father told me to see the aka! i was really scarred about black shirts after that
10:32 mc (i was young rugbyman)
10:32 mc good appetite all: i go for lunch
10:41 paul bye chris
10:41 paul sweet dreams
10:41 chris have a good afternoon and happy hacking :)
11:40 nengard celebrate software freedom day:

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