Time  Nick      Message
14:21 johnny    haha, true
14:47 danny     in trying to understand koha better, I am curious as to the reasoning behind having the templates include the html coding + language, instead of just having all of the wording become variables and then including like a language file?
14:48 danny     it seems like with the way it is currently setup if I make a html coding change to an en template, that same change would need to be made to a fr template, is that true?
14:48 owen      danny: you're not the first to ask the question
14:48 hdl       danny: yes
14:49 hdl       But there is a process that does it automatically
14:49 danny     oh really? that is good
14:50 paul      misc/translator/tmpl_process3.pl
14:51 owen      paul, is there anything on the wiki describing the process?
14:52 owen      There is a howtotranslatekoha page, but it's not really what it sounds like: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=howtotranslatekoha
14:52 danny     paul: ah I see, ok thank you
14:53 owen      danny, we do it this way with Koha to make it easier for the developers to work on the templates. Devs get real language strings in the template when editing rather than variable names they'd have to look up elsewhere
14:53 owen      At least that's the rationale I recall
14:54 danny     hehe
14:54 danny     that is true
14:57 danny     and if I have questions on some usability/template design questions, is it best to ask here or the koha-devel list?
14:58 owen      Either place. Try here first and mail the list if you don't get a good answer or want to get more of a consensus.
14:59 danny     mostly concerning why certain things are setup they way they are and if they can be changed or not
14:59 danny     ok sounds good
14:59 owen      I'm eager to hear any questions you've got
15:00 danny     ok they are all about really little specific things
15:00 danny     like when modifying a Child Patron from the staff side, there is a drop down list for Relationship under Guarantor information
15:01 danny     there can be many more options under relationship then father/mother
15:01 paul      yes, that's why it's defined in a syspref ;-)
15:01 danny     ah
15:02 owen      borrowerRelationship
15:02 danny     ok I see it, thanks
15:15 nengard   danny, this may be of help to you: http://sites.google.com/a/liblime.com/koha-manual/
15:15 danny     ok i'll take a look at it, thanks
15:16 gmcharlt  hi liz-nekls
15:18 nengard   hiya liz-nekls
15:47 liz-nekls hola chica did you have a good weekend?
15:53 nengard   can someone tell me if this is right?
15:53 nengard   AutomaticItemReturn
15:53 nengard   Defines if Koha will automatically transfer an item to to its home branch, or not.
15:53 nengard   Default Value: ON
15:53 nengard   Values:
15:53 nengard       * ON = Items checked in at a location other than the home branch specified in their record will be set as in transit to their home location.
15:53 nengard             o IMPORTANT: This assumes you know what needs to be transferred, and initiates the transfer automatically without showing a notification message.
15:54 nengard       * OFF = Items will not be set as in transit to their home location, instead the item will remain at the library that checked the item.  The check in location will show on the item record as the 'holding' location (like a temp location)
15:54 nengard   liz-nekls - i did have a nice weekend, we went to hershey, PA and now i'm going through my training notes to update documentation :)
15:54 liz-nekls nengard-nice
15:55 liz-nekls nengard did you get chocolate?
15:55 nengard   liz-nekls i went to an SLA meeting and scientists from hershey were there and they gave us free samples ;) yum
15:55 liz-nekls mmm awesome
16:04 nengard   can someone fill in the ?? on this page for me - just tell me what to put and I'll put it in: http://sites.google.com/a/liblime.com/koha-manual/Home/Table-of-Contents/administration/Manual--Catalog/Catalog--Authorized-Values
16:06 hdl       (For HINGS_*
16:06 hdl       )=
16:07 nengard   hdl - yeah those are the ones that i can't even guess about
16:09 owen      The wiki at least gives a better description of those codes: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:development:kohaauthvalues#holdings_statements_for_bibliographic_items
16:12 nengard   owen thanks - i added that info to my document
16:25 mc        hello all
16:25 mc        i read the Zeno's message
16:26 mc        as there is no object i seen on the koha API, i'm trying to figure out how a UML diagram can help ?
16:26 mc        any idea ?
16:26 mc        ( E/R diagram can be really usefull, btw )
16:27 acmoore   mc: I can see it being useful, too, but probably really difficult to do on the current Koha code.
16:30 mc        hmm ... sorry for my poor english: i'm trying to tell that i think is quiet useless as there is no diagram to draw
16:30 mc        (i think about class diagram : action diagram is just impossible to render automatically)
16:32 mc        (or perhaps it's just an UML view of the schema ... so why not just E/R? )
16:33 acmoore   mc: Yes, I think I follow you. we don't really have any objects, so you can't really make a model for it.
16:34 acmoore   mc: But, perhaps something useful will come out of it. It doesn't really cost the rest of us much to see how they do, so I can't object.
16:36 mc        that's why i shut up for now
16:36 paul      write a mail to tell your questions & doubts.
16:36 mc        but peraps there is better to do ...
16:36 mc        paul, ok
16:36 paul      at least, they will realize it will not be that easy to get something really usefull
16:36 mc        i just wanted to know if i was just wrong :)
16:37 mc        yep
16:37 mc        you're right
17:00 mc        someone knows how to translate "API metier" ?
17:00 mc        that means: API that provides a business abstraction
17:07 hdl       professional API
17:07 cnighs    any ddc experts, semi-experts, or just plain non-experts w/some kind of ddc experience around?
17:11 nengard   cnighs they use ddc at nekls- liz-nekls do you know anything that can help?
17:43 sawariwap anyone awake?
17:45 atz       yep
17:45 danny     somewhat awake =)
17:46 qiqo      hi atz and danny
17:47 qiqo      ive just upgraded to rc1
17:47 qiqo      from 2.2 here
17:47 qiqo      and im having trouble running the zebraserver
17:47 qiqo      well the server is running
17:47 qiqo      but when i perform search, nothing is reflected
17:47 mc        hdl, thx (i just noticed your reply)
17:47 kados     qiqo: 2.2 doesn't use zebra
17:47 qiqo      i have 300 bilio records
17:47 kados     qiqo: you need 3.0
17:47 qiqo      yeah... so i upgraded to 3.0
17:47 qiqo      im using RC1 now
17:49 qiqo      also i guess zebra is running
17:49 qiqo      root      6128  0.0  0.7  39336  7912 pts/0    T    01:33   0:00 zebrasrv -f /etc/koha/koha-conf.xml
17:51 qiqo      hmm
17:52 qiqo      can anyone help me throug ssh?
17:52 qiqo      i think i got the indexing wrong
17:59 ryan      qiqo: you ran misc/migration_tools/rebuild_zebra -b ?
18:04 qiqo      yup
18:04 qiqo      ran it
18:04 qiqo      02:03:05-05/08 zebraidx(6331) [log] zebra_stop: 0.03 0.00 0.00
18:05 qiqo      ====================
18:05 qiqo      CLEANING
18:05 liz-nekls nengard - sorry I was afk
18:05 liz-nekls what was the question?
18:05 qiqo      ====================
18:05 qiqo      those are the last lines after the execution
18:05 qiqo      but im having these errors: 02:03:05-05/08 zebraidx(6329) [warn] Record didn't contain match fields in (bib1,Local-number)
18:05 nengard   np
18:08 qiqo      hmm
07:23 johnny    good morning
07:36 mc        hello
07:36 mc        i just read the chris post on packaging koha on hardy
07:36 mc        chris++
07:37 mc        chris: just one point: you didn't explain how to add the GPG key for your repo
09:04 chris     ahh sorry
09:04 chris     you can get it from biglumber
09:04 chris     ill update the post
09:04 paul      hi chris
09:05 chris     hi paul
09:06 paul      chris: say hello to johnny the new biblibrios
09:06 paul      (since yesterday)
09:08 chris     hi johnny :)
09:09 chris     does he work in the marseille office with you paul?
09:09 paul      yep
09:09 paul      we are 3 : me, osaury & johnny
09:14 chris     excellent
09:20 chris     mc: updated the post
09:21 paul      chris: do your company use a perl framework for devs ? like catalyst. mc would be interested to know I'm sure
09:21 chris     we use all sorts of different things
09:21 paul      because he asked us some questions about using a framework for Koha. I have no experience. Do you have some ?
09:22 chris     generally they are good for prototyping
09:22 paul      he spoke of moose for example
09:22 paul      (which is not really a framework, I agree)
09:22 chris     but often the ease of programming, is offset by the performance hit
09:23 chris     the main thing i dont like about catalyst for example, is it uses Class::DBI
09:24 paul      mc: beeepp !!!!
09:24 chris     so instead we use the things we like about it, like the MVC model, and template toolkit
09:24 chris     but prefer to be able to tweak the sql, for performance reasons
09:25 chris     for things like the SRS (running the .nz registry) and stuff.co.nz etc .. performance is very important
09:25 mc        oops
09:25 mc        sorry
09:26 chris     so often we will prototype with a framework, or for small apps, or sites use it
09:26 chris     but for big production sites, we prefer to get our hands a bit more dirty :-)
09:26 mc        i read
09:26 mc        50%
09:27 chris     :)
09:27 mc        80%
09:27 mc        100%
09:27 mc        ok
09:27 mc        on of the thing i love in catalyst is that there is no need to use anything
09:28 mc        for example: Class::DBI can speed the dev, but you can feel free to rewrite your own M from scratch
09:29 chris     yep, thats we end up doing
09:29 mc        about performances: i just wanted to notice that the fact to don't use a framework introduce bugs (as this i have fixed) that are very bad for performances
09:30 mc        a good separation of the M can drive us to a design of a generic DBI::Class M
09:30 mc        pro:
09:31 mc        - techno independant
09:31 mc        - easy to read and understand (new conributors will appreciate)
09:31 mc        and if sql tweaks possible:
09:32 chris     it depends on the framework
09:32 mc        a special Model::MYSQL::InSteroid
09:32 chris     if we just talk about catalyst then i mostly agree
09:32 chris     but there are some frameworks that are no where near as nice
09:32 chris     like maypole, or tangram
09:33 chris     so it has to be a *good* framework, not just any framework
09:33 mc        i talk about catalyst. I love concepts of Jifty but there is too much use of mason
09:33 chris     mason has some very good things
09:33 chris     it depends on the structure of your website
09:33 johnny    hey chris
09:33 mc        and i don't like masson 'cuz it embeded perl code
09:33 chris     if you can make use of the strong inheritance that mason has
09:34 mc        so mason is just a kind of php++ for me
09:34 mc        i don't like to see perl code in a template
09:34 chris     you dont have to use it like that
09:35 chris     if you build your components right
09:35 mc        sure ... but you can ... so be sure someone will :)
09:35 chris     you can totally separate the two
09:35 chris     yeah, but you can do anything in perl .. it doesnt make perl bad :)
09:35 mc        touched! i shut up :)
09:36 chris     if i was writing koha now
09:36 chris     from scratch, i would use either catalyst
09:37 chris     or maybe rails
09:37 chris     but in 99, neither existed :)
09:37 johnny    eh, what about django? ☺
09:37 mc        sure: i don't beat on koha team! koha is just a good piece of software in regard of is history
09:38 chris     or maybe django
09:38 mc        johnny, get out of there!
09:38 mc        ;)
09:38 chris     or erlang
09:38 chris     :)
09:38 mc        :(
09:38 johnny    ahhaha
09:38 mc        i hope you're kidding
09:39 chris     you dont like the idea of a distributed, concurrent koha? ;-)
09:39 mc        johnny, if we have to change for any other language (i'm not sure it's a good idea), we have to choose a good one
09:39 chris     yeah i am, if i did it erlang .. we'd have no developers :)
09:39 mc        chris, well ... i don't like the idea there is no more new contrib
09:39 mc        sure
09:39 chris     ive been playing with pugs, and perl6
09:40 mc        me too
09:40 mc        that's one more point for moose:
09:40 chris     actually my friend andy wrote a good post about this
09:40 chris     ill find it
09:40 mc        the basics are close
09:41 chris     http://kapiti.geek.nz/random/why-im-passionate-about-perl.html
09:43 mc        chris, what about haskell ?
09:43 mc        ;)
09:45 chris     heh
09:45 chris     i did haskell at university
09:45 chris     wrote a compiler in it
09:45 chris     we could go really lowlevel, and do machine code
09:45 chris     write even
09:47 johnny    mc: well, he was mentioning rails...
09:47 mc        johnny, rails is in ruby
09:47 johnny    but yeah, i couldn't agree more
09:47 johnny    yeah, it is
09:49 mc        i read a book on it and i'm very attracted by the level of abstraction
09:49 mc        i love the concept but have no time to practice :(
09:49 mc        'I mean, show them a thousand line Java file or a 10 line Perl program.'
09:49 chris     heh
09:50 mc        that's not right when you correctly use some java frameworks with very powerfull concepts as annotations
09:50 mc        because those tools doesn't exists in perl
09:51 mc        but the problem is that you need some 10 years java developpers to do so
09:51 chris     and it still wont get finished
09:51 mc        yep
09:52 mc        sure
09:52 mc        another problem is that it's almost impossible to do simple things with simple ways with those java frameworks
09:55 chris     yep
10:00 mc        why i dream about catalyst/TT2:
10:01 mc        - better abstraction
10:01 mc        - use of existing wheels: less code
10:01 mc        (so less bugs)
10:02 mc        - Easier way to organize the code (even the templates, using vmethods, wrappers, ... )
10:02 mc        s/abstraction/isolation/
10:03 mc        abstraction needs design : i spoke about all of it because i'm very afraid for the Zeno's Student
10:04 chris     its a good learning experience
10:05 mc        johnny, don't tell again you like things like python on this chan because logs are public: u'll ruin your carrieer !
10:05 chris     but i would suggest the student works toward creating a uml of how it could work
10:06 mc        that's what i propose in my answer on the list
10:06 mc        oops ... you restart apache2 in the postinst ?
10:06 chris     yep
10:07 chris     well, reload
10:07 mc        ooh ... ok
10:07 mc        i would be quiet furious if i was sysop and if a package install/update restarts my server
10:07 chris     as well as linking the config into sites-enabled (before)
10:08 chris     theres lots that do
10:08 mc        chris, so you create a default site ?
10:09 chris     at the moment
10:09 mc        i thought about it when i wrote my automator
10:09 mc        but now i think it's not a good idea
10:09 chris     its just for testing the package
10:09 mc        because i don't handle multiple sites
10:09 mc        ok
10:10 chris     next step is writing the preinst file that uses debconf to get values from the user
10:10 mc        but i think we (vincent, MJ, ...) have to think about what we could expect from a koha package
10:10 mc        ohh
10:11 chris     but for now, you can install it and have a single site koha up and running pretty fast
10:12 chris     if i do it right
10:12 chris     then you could do dpkg-reconfigure libkoha-perl
10:13 chris     and add another koha site
10:13 chris     but ill think about that more tomorrow
10:15 chris     hmm am i right, is there a biblibrio in toulon?
10:24 paul      chris: no, there is none. Although Marseille is 50km from  Toulon
10:25 chris     ahhh
10:25 chris     Toulon has been in the news here lots lately, because of the rugby team, and the nzer leaving his rugby league club to go play there
10:26 paul      right. Marseille is THE soccer city. And Toulon a Rugby city.
10:27 mc        toulon ?
10:27 mc        chris, don't you think about Toulouse ?
10:29 paul      mc: I don't think so : http://www.rugby-stream.fr/Rugby/Clubs-de-Pro-D2/Toulon/RC-Toulon-Un-pilier-kiwi-en-renfort_9_49_128_48961.html
10:29 chris     http://stuff.co.nz/4644128a1823.html
10:29 chris     (the bonus of working on a newspaper site, i have to read the news hehe)
10:29 paul      lol
10:30 mc        an all black in france! cool!
10:30 mc        toulon will learn the aka ?
10:30 chris     they already have the ex captain of the all blacks as their coach :)
10:30 chris     tana umaga .. he is from wellington too
10:31 mc        i remember that i was a child the first time my father told me to see the aka! i was really scarred about black shirts after that
10:32 mc        (i was young rugbyman)
10:32 mc        good appetite all: i go for lunch
10:41 paul      bye chris
10:41 paul      sweet dreams
10:41 chris     have a good afternoon and happy hacking :)
11:40 nengard   celebrate software freedom day: http://blogs.liblime.com/open-sesame/archives/129