IRC log for #koha, 2007-10-04

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
11:40 kados morning #koha
11:40 kados paul: did you send some patches that haven't been applied yet?
11:41 kados related to plugins?
11:52 paul hello kados
11:52 paul helas, chris went to bed 10mn too soon.
11:53 paul patches are in his mailbox
11:55 kados ahh
11:56 paul timezone are really friendly for us. Maybe we could ask UN to change the way earth turns...
11:56 kados hehe
11:57 kados paul:[…]w_bug.cgi?id=1442
11:57 kados I'm very confused about the purpose of AutoLocation
11:57 paul the purpose is to autolocate librarians depending on the computer they log on.
11:57 kados right
11:57 paul NOT depending on their branch
11:58 kados so it ignores the branch setting?
11:58 kados or it sets the branch setting?
11:58 paul but someone logging from a non library-IP address is considered as "dunno where it is located, locate it at it's branch"
11:58 paul it set the branch depending on IP, ignoring borrowers.branchcode
11:58 kados ahh
11:59 kados ok, and that is strange because it doesn't tell you that
11:59 kados ie, the cookie still has branchcode
11:59 kados and in my top-right area I have the branch name I specified when I logged in
11:59 kados how do you know if it's working?
11:59 paul ??? I tried yesterday and saw the IP branch.
12:00 kados hmmm
12:00 kados my IP is
12:00 kados I edit one library and put in the IP
12:01 kados I log out as kohaadmin and log back in as a superlibrarian
12:01 kados and I specify a different library (branch) than the correct one
12:02 paul mmm... i'm not sure a "superlibrarian" is limited by branchIP
12:02 paul (a feature, not a bug)
12:02 kados ahh
12:02 kados it seems perhaps
12:02 paul I tried as a librarian with all permissions except superlibrarian
12:02 kados I logged in as Shannon Processing Branch
12:03 kados and it says I'm in Shannon Media Library
12:03 kados which is the correct one
12:03 kados and I can't override it
12:04 kados ok, maybe my previous test was less careful
12:04 kados did you submit a patch to hide the menu for selecting branch?
12:04 paul yep
12:05 kados paul: I bet I know why it did n't work last time
12:05 kados I didn't specify a whole IP address, just three octets
12:05 kados 70.104.110
12:05 kados should that work?
12:06 paul but for sure, something is possible
12:06 paul (it's SAN-OP feature : they have 100 computers, I don't imagine they entered all IP manuyally ;-)
12:06 kados ahh, that did it
12:06 kados ok, I will add text to the template to explain
12:07 kados (hmmm, I don't see your patch accepted ... better re-submit to chris)
12:16 kados paul: when you fetch and rebase, the patches you have already sent should not appear next time you do a format-patch
12:17 kados that's how I keep track of which ones have been accepted
12:28 kados back
12:45 kados paul: ?
12:48 slef kados: if you forget to rm * the patch holding directory, old patches may be resent
12:49 slef I've got that wrong once this week
12:49 kados but I suspect chris is missing some patches
12:49 kados we've got virtual domains set up with postfix
12:49 slef I've used postfix. Not a big fan.  Prefer exim4.
12:50 slef for anything complex, that is.  Postfix seems fine for simple tasks.
12:59 paul kados: the other possibility is that i have forgotten to report the patch from BibLibre to Official
13:05 paul that's it. I have something like a dozen fixes that have not been sent
13:07 slef paul: do you have 5 mins to check my french?
13:07 paul no, but throw it anyway ;-)
13:07 slef Je suis développeur de Koha et anglophone mais j'apprends la langue
13:07 slef française il y a 23 ans.  Je veux que KohaLa ne couper pas la
13:07 slef communauté Koha en deux, une côté français et une côté reste-de-monde.
13:10 paul s/il y a 23 ans/depuis 23 ans/
13:10 paul s/couper/coupe/
13:10 paul s/une coté/un coté/
13:10 paul otherwise, I really don't see why you're afraid of that (splitting community in 2)
13:11 slef I'm afraid because KohaLa is very broadly-written, but no-one is willing to explain it to the anglos.
13:14 hdl slef there is nothing to be afraid of. It was stated at Koha Con that Koha NPOs would be a good thing.
13:15 hdl KohaLa will just be french Librarian participation in Koha. Just as some NPO for Koha in US or anywhere.
13:16 hdl French (and American) ppl thought it would be good and smart to have local representations of Koha World. That's it.
13:16 slef hdl: KohaLa is very broadly-written and there are developers standing for its council already, while it ignores that it is not a whole-community group.
13:17 slef on paper, KohaLa is not a simple french librarian group
13:18 paul slef: KohaLa don't want to be a worldwide group & don't want to be separate from Koha. if you can't believe that, then I can't add anything to convince you...
13:18 paul slef: KohaLa don't expect to be a worldwide group & don't want to be separate from Koha. if you can't believe that, then I can't add anything to convince you...
13:20 slef paul: if the statuts and reglements matched your words, I could believe it, but it's not convincing to say it is a group for french librarians and then have developers stand for its council, with development of koha as its objective.
13:22 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: atzberger
14:07 kados slef: still aroudn?
14:08 kados slef: I think you need to do more than just object to the current language for kohala
14:08 kados slef: you need to offer an alternative
14:08 kados slef: that allows the french org to 1) get funds to sponsor features in Koha and 2) allows a user group localized in france
14:09 kados paul: would that cover the main purposes of kohala/
14:09 kados ?
14:10 paul maybe. probably.
14:11 kados slef: ?
14:12 [K] <atzberger@FreeNode> hmmm
14:14 slef kados: it's difficult for me to write legal French. I think a SCIC looks like the best alternative, but I don't know if that will allow it to get funds. Asking about this got the response that the only way to get funds is to be a 1901-law association, but no references to support that.
14:16 kados slef: could you write in english at least, clearly explain what you think needs to be changed and offer an alternative?
15:38 slef apologies for that.  blasted network failure
15:39 slef kados: it's difficult for me to write legal French. I think a SCIC looks like the best alternative, but I don't know if that will allow it to get funds. Asking about this got the response that the only way to get funds is to be a 1901-law association, but no references to support that.
15:39 slef SCIC = Society of Common Interest Cooperation
15:53 kados well, they really want to be able to get funds
15:53 kados so I'd say SCIC isn't the best :-)
15:54 slef what funds are they trying to get and what conditions are upon them?
15:54 kados the members want to be abel to get funds to sponsor development work on koha
15:54 kados conditions?
15:55 slef restrictions
15:55 kados restrictions on what?
15:55 kados how the funds can be used?
15:55 slef what organisations can access funds
15:56 kados I guess it's up to the members
15:56 kados not sure why it would matter to you
15:56 slef if it was a users group, I'd agree, but it's a users and developers group
15:57 kados so you consider yourself a default member?
15:57 slef I'm a potential member
15:57 slef as in, I'm in its audience
15:57 kados well based on our kohacon last year
15:57 kados we decided it made more sense to have regional npos
15:57 slef if it's commissioning developers, I want to suggest it should prefer developer-members
15:57 kados one in france, one in us, etc.
15:58 kados in the US, it wouldn't be allowed to prefer members over non-members
15:58 slef I've no problems with that aspect.
15:58 kados in fact, it would be impossible to get funds if those constraints were in place
16:00 slef kados: usual would just be for developer-members to be excluded from developer selection decisions, wouldn't it?
16:00 slef as in, excluded from making them
16:00 kados yes, that woudl have to be explicit in the bylaws
16:00 kados but they also look at the structure of the org
16:01 kados and if it's mostly, say, vendors, most funding won't be available
16:01 kados even if they abstain from voting
16:01 slef now that's what I'd thought
16:02 slef s/thought/expect/
16:02 slef it either isn't the case for kohala, or there's some aspect of the 1901 law which I've not discovered yet
16:03 kados I still don't understand what your objection is
16:04 kados it sounds like you object to french law :-)
16:05 slef My objection: 1. possible closed-shop for french developers; 2. disconnect from the koha community; 3. pro-corporation vote system
16:05 slef none of those are requirements of french law
16:06 kados can you expand on each of those points?
16:06 slef I'll try, but ask questions
16:07 slef 1. kohala includes the object of developing koha, so it could obtain funds and employ people itself to do it
16:07 kados I hope it does!
16:07 kados what would be wrong with that?
16:08 kados it coudl even offer services if it wanted
16:08 slef because external developers could not compete for the commissions
16:09 kados so?
16:09 slef so it's a closed shop... do you see nothing wrong with closed shops?
16:09 kados liblime is a closed shop :-=)
16:09 kados according to your definition :-)
16:10 slef do people give you money and say "do whatever koha work you fancy"?
16:10 slef if so, I want your customers ;-)
16:10 kados would people be giving kohala money and saying 'do whatever you want'?
16:10 kados doesn't seem like it to me
16:11 slef I thought kohala was seeking grant funding and donations as an NPO
16:12 kados I had assumed it woudl be for specific projects
16:12 slef but still there is the problem of developers directing the association, which I'll be fascinated to see how French law handles
16:13 kados except it can get donations
16:13 slef and it gets tax breaks
16:14 slef so can you see why I want it open to all developers without an entry test?
16:16 slef 2. kohala is currently written as if it is the koha community, not just part of it.
16:17 slef 3. pro-corporation vote systems are unjust.  The votes wielded by a corporation should be relative to their ownership and level of internal agreement.
16:40 kados slef: sorry, maybe I'm just dense, but I don't get it still
16:41 kados slef: I don't understand why you would care about the internal decision making process of a french NPO
16:41 kados if they can get grants and not pay taxes, that is good for the koha project
16:41 kados it means more resources for the development
16:41 paul kados +++ !
16:42 kados slef: I don't think justice has anything to do with anything in this case
16:42 kados votes should be handled internally by the french NPO
16:42 kados as long as they french NPL doesn't think it IS koha, I don't have a problem
16:42 paul NPL ? PL probably ;-)
16:42 kados NPO I meant
16:43 paul ok. No worry anyway...
16:43 paul that's also why it's not "koha france" or something like that
16:43 kados yep
16:43 kados makes sense to me
16:43 slef kados: scope of kohala is not limited to france
16:43 kados and it allows me to set up the 'Koha Software Foundation' with is US-based
16:44 kados slef: there is good reason not to limit to france
16:44 kados slef: it looks tbetter on grant application s:-)
16:45 kados plus, maybe some french guy from canada would want to be involved
16:45 slef kados: probably, but you can see why rest of world should care about the operation of such a french NPO
16:45 kados slef: no, I don't see
16:45 kados it's their business IMO
16:45 kados just liek if another company started to support Koha
16:45 kados it's none of my business how they decide to operate
16:45 slef its scope is global
16:45 kados liblime's scope is global too
16:45 slef another company would be on a fair footing with us
16:45 paul and BibLibre as well ;-)
16:46 paul slef : it's NOT another company ! KohaLa CAN'T compete in business
16:46 slef that is not so much of a problem
16:46 paul forbidden by french law, strictly !
16:46 kados slef: is it fair that some guy from india gets paid $.30 an hour and a US guy needs a salary of $50 an hour?
16:46 kados I don't think it's an issue of fairness
16:47 slef kados: no. That is why I fair-trade with india.
16:47 kados if someone can come up with a better way to develop open source software than a US for profit corp, I'd switch in a heartbeat
16:47 kados so maybe if kohala is super successful I will sell liblime to it :-)
16:47 slef we turn away a lot of unfair indian collaborators
16:48 paul kados : impossible by french law : liblime is PO & kohaLa NPO
16:48 kados ahh, too bad :-)
16:48 paul a NPO can't compete in business, once again.
16:50 slef paul: what stops it?  I thought French law only said that a 1901 law association is a NPO, not that it cannot compete in business.
16:50 slef I thought the methods were left to the statuts and reglements.
16:50 paul it's also said that "it can't interfere with merchand domain"
16:51 paul so, if nobody want to do business in domain X, KohaLa can.
16:51 paul but in libraries, ppl want to do business, so kohala can't ;-)
16:51 kados interesting
16:51 paul example : a NPO to promote eating frog legs can't sell frog legs in GB through a website to continue with my stupid example
16:52 paul because nobody probably does that already ;-)
16:52 kados paul: is it just restricted to france?
16:52 kados or do they regulate outside of france too?
16:52 paul I don't think so.
16:52 kados wow
16:52 paul but not completly sure. for france, i'm sure 100%
16:52 kados so really, any NPO could be shut down if a company that offers the same service started?
16:52 paul example : a NPO to promote eating frog legs CAN sell frog legs in GB through a website to continue with my stupid example
16:53 kados ahh
16:53 paul (yes, because nobody does it already)
16:54 paul if *one* company started to sell frog legs in GB, AFTER the NPO, I think everybody would be in trouble to know what to do...
16:54 [K] <atzberger@FreeNode> is the idea of this law to make sure that everything profitable is commercially run?
16:54 slef seems to say that none of the administrators can have a direct or indirect interest in the results of the exploitation...
16:54 kados slef: does that include taking salary from the organization?
16:54 paul [K]: maybe. But probably it's because the NPO don't pay VAT or taxes.
16:55 kados hehe
16:55 slef oh wait... that's just what they look at to decide how to continue the examination
16:55 paul in fact, now I remember that a NPO can, but it need a specific declaration & will, of course pay VAT & taxes.
16:56 paul but the NPO can't distribute benefits anyway, so it's only theoric in 99.9% of the cases.
16:56 paul will be away tomorrow, as you know ;-)
16:56 paul before leaving i'll send something like 15 patches to chris
16:57 [K] <atzberger@FreeNode> I think it is cool that you are building any organization around Koha: commercial, non-commercial, whatever.
16:58 slef It does my head in: "can't distribute benefits" but "more resources for the development"
16:59 [K] <atzberger@FreeNode> I can't pretend to know what is best in France, or to influence what goes on... so have at it!
16:59 paul [K]: in fact, hdl & me are building a profit company, that will be called BibLibre (Bib= Library in french, Libre = free) I have deposed statuses & bank paper proving we have deposed the money... 3 hours ago ;-)
17:00 paul slef: you've got it. KohaLa, as NPO can only be a chance for the project. At the lowest it will be useless...
17:00 [K] <atzberger@FreeNode> bbl: (off to site visit)
17:00 kados from my perspective, we're all on the same page about koha, we want a successful project, and we all have different approaches to acomplish that, liblime is a US corp, turo is a UK firm, BibLibre is a french company, KohaLa is a french NPL, Koha Software Foundation is a american NPO
17:01 kados what approach is the best to promote the project? I'm not sure yet :-)
17:01 slef paul: how can kohala give more resources for development if it cannot distribute any benefits?
17:01 kados but I can say for sure that libraryes aren't able to run it themselves
17:01 kados we tried that for what, 5 years?
17:01 slef kados: turo is a UK LLP co-op.
17:01 paul it can't distribute to members. but it can to external companies (fortnuatly)
17:02 paul not as benefits, but as way to achieve it's goal!
17:02 kados slef: yea, knew that :-)
17:02 kados so what's the most effective way to foster this community? I dunno, but it's good to have all these options IMO
17:03 slef paul: so no kohala work can be sold to any developer-member or be useful to any user-member?
17:14 slef kados: most of the advisers who I find with sample 1901 rules seem to charge for them. I'm unhappy enough that kohala consumes time, let alone it costing money directly.
17:14 slef returning to the question:
17:14 slef <kados> slef: I don't understand why you would care about the internal decision making process of a french NPO
17:17 slef If someone set up a US Koha Software Foundation in another state which seemed to be directed by US-based koha users and developers on terms that disadvantaged liblime, wouldn't you care?
17:17 kados if someone can build an organization that disadvantages liblime, I'd want to dissolve liblime and join it :-)
17:17 kados so long as it was pro-koha
17:18 kados ie, if there's a more efficient way to promote and develop koha, I want in! :-)
17:18 slef and if it has rules which seem designed to stop you joining it?
17:18 kados I'd just replicate the model
17:18 slef yeah, that's another option here
17:19 slef so, seems we have two different motives: I want my enterprise to survive and co-operate with the rest of the community, not die in its favour; and I prefer to fix rather than fork
17:20 slef for now, I'm trying in, but the barriers to entry are surprising
17:22 slef we can and we do... we're limited by number of workers at the moment
17:22 slef we don't go after donations because we can't
17:23 kados gotcha
17:23 slef well, we can in theory, but in practice no-one donates to for-profit co-ops
17:23 kados yea, it's time consuming
17:23 kados ahh
17:24 slef we get project funding instead
17:25 kados yep, us too
17:55 jaron "When I passed by the LihLime booth on the exhibit floor at the ALA Annual Conference, it was so crowded I could not get near it. Perhaps they were giving away T-shirts or bouncing rubber balls that flash or such, but I'll bet that attendees were interested in the open source ILS solutions that the company supports—Koha ZOOM and Evergreen." --October Computers in Libraries p. 23
17:55 kados heh, cool
17:56 jaron do you have bouncing rubber balls that flash?
17:57 kados hehe
17:58 kados no, but that's a good idea :-)
17:58 jaron could be dangerous in a packed booth though
21:22 thd` kados: did you miscount?
21:23 thd kados: I sent you a message
21:23 kados thd: thanks
21:23 kados ahh, yes I did misscount
21:23 thd Frederic: I sent you a message if you are still awake
21:23 kados sorry
21:24 thd kados: so the 13 I listed after the current 18 should be enough
21:24 kados thd: so this list is the 'Koha 3.0 MARC21 Items' definition? :-)
21:26 thd kados: yes it is.  Just use the 13 in some logical order and preserve the ones listed afterwards.
21:26 kados ok, great
21:26 kados tests
21:27 thd kados: you should see that I did suggest some difficult choices for others if you need more.
21:27 kados I'll just do 18 + 13 for now
21:27 kados and see how I like that
21:27 kados give me a sec
21:32 kados ERROR 1062 (23000) at line 168: Duplicate entry '952-x' for key 1
21:36 thd kados: take $m
21:36 thd my mistake
21:37 kados $m?
21:37 thd 952 $m
21:37 kados ahh
21:37 kados I see
21:37 thd take that one for the 13th
21:37 kados ok
21:38 kados ok, working, thankx thd
21:40 kados thd: missing: 'wthdrawn', 'issues', 'renewals', 'reserves', 'binding', 'onloan', 'cutterextra', 'issue_date', 'itype'
21:42 thd kados: that would be more than 36
21:43 kados ?
21:43 kados well cutterextra can fit somewhere into an unmapped one, right?
21:43 kados copy number maybe?
21:43 thd kados: yes
21:44 thd but you have more than 36
21:44 kados there're aren't more than 36 koha fields in items
21:44 kados ok, lets see
21:45 kados do we really need public vs non-public note?
21:46 kados sequence number? do we really need that in 3.0?
21:46 thd they match items columns
21:46 kados or canceled barcode?
21:46 thd kados did you not use the 13?
21:46 kados nonpub note doesn't match an items column
21:48 kados I have 30 total
21:48 kados 0, 1, 4, 9, b, c, d, e, k
21:48 thd you have not used all the 13
21:49 kados p, r, t, u, v, w, x, y, z, 3, 6, 8, a, f, g, j, l
21:49 kados n, q, s, m
21:49 thd nonpublic is in the 13
21:49 kados yes, it is, but I question why we need it
21:49 kados (I actually see two nonpublic notes
21:50 kados )
21:50 thd really
21:50 kados that was what caused the 952 x prob
21:51 thd yes so if you use $m that should be enough
21:52 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: rangi
21:52 kados thd: can you take the list I gave you of what's missing and recommend a subfield structure?
21:52 kados hey rangi, what brings you here?
21:53 chris just use that one to set off the beeps on my mac
21:53 kados cool
02:13 thd kados: are you back?
02:13 kados thd: yep
02:14 thd kados: so when is version 4.0 coming out?
02:14 thd s/4/3/
02:15 chris when its ready
02:15 kados hehe
02:15 thd chris: I knew that before :)
02:16 chris depends how many people fix bugs :)
02:16 kados thd:[…]e+same+sort+as+la
02:16 kados hehe
02:16 kados sorry
02:16 kados
02:17 chris all the blockers, crits and majors
02:17 kados thd: minimally, when the bugs are fixed and we haven't found more serious bugs with testing
02:17 kados yep
02:17 thd kados: how did all those things get broken?
02:18 kados thd: I'm glad someones asking that question :-)
02:18 chris not all of them got broken
02:18 chris lots of them never werent broken
02:18 chris theres a bunch of new features
02:18 thd kados: I asked because you seemed to suggest that it had to come out soon
02:19 chris theres a few of those blockers that have had patches submitted, need testing
02:19 kados yep
02:19 kados thd: yes, it does!
02:19 thd kados: also Frederic called me today to ask because he could not obtain an answer from paul
02:20 thd kados: I told him what I knew and told him to ask you
02:20 thd kados: have you promised any timeline to customers?
02:26 kados
02:29 chris i dont think the mailing thing works on it, but most other stuff does
02:30 kados cool
03:29 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: atzberger
03:34 kados hiya joe
03:40 [K] <atzberger@FreeNode> hola
04:26 thd chris: Do you still have any plans to implement something for items.stack, items.binding, items.multivolume, or items.multivolumepart ?
04:28 chris reimplement you mean? they were all used in koha 1 .. but no, no plans to reimplement that in the near future
04:29 thd chris: what about the distant future? :)
04:29 chris nope, all that will be changing with the marc holdings stuff
04:30 thd chris: kados: asked me to map all the items columns to the MARC 21 frameworks for indexing in Zebra but I wanted to know if some lacked a purpose worthy of indexing
04:31 thd chirs: this is for 3.0
04:31 chris they'll be used if you map a marc subfield to them
04:32 thd chirs: who will use them if they have no functionality?
04:32 chris ie, if you map a subfield to them, and edit the marc and add data to that subfield, then they will be populated
04:33 thd chris: you mean that someone may populate them if they choose but the program will do nothing useful with the data except store it
04:33 chris yeah
04:34 chris but those are certainly fields that in the marc you might want to search
04:34 chris whether they are in teh items table or not
04:34 chris ie you might want to know a serial is part of a bound volume
04:35 thd chris: was that the function of items.binding or one of the others?
04:35 chris but probably not the other ones
04:35 chris items.binding
04:35 chris sorry items.multivolume
04:36 chris and multivolumepart was which part of it it was
04:36 chris iirc
04:36 chris its been 8 years :-)
04:36 thd :)
04:36 chris i wouldnt worry about them too much
04:37 thd chris: well what is items.issues ?
04:37 chris just a count
04:37 thd of what?
04:37 chris its incremented everytime its issued
04:38 chris you might want to use it to rank results
04:38 thd oh so that records circulation statistics
04:38 chris yeah, just a simple count
04:38 chris all the real stats are in the statistics table, when it was issued, in what branch etc
04:38 chris but that is just a simple total
04:38 thd yes
04:39 chris you can find items that have never been issued fast using it
04:39 chris not sure youd want to search on it
04:39 chris more for reporting
04:40 thd chris: I think kados had sorting results by that field in mind
04:40 chris yeah you could use it for the popularity
04:40 chris ranking
04:40 chris im not sure how thats done currently
04:41 thd chris: maybe kados has something in mind
04:41 thd chris: I may not map items.stack and items.binding
04:42 chris right
04:42 thd but I think I may map items.multivolume, and items.multivolumepart
04:42 chris cool
05:00 thd chris: I forgot to ask. what is items.timestamp ?
05:01 chris just that a timestamp, mysql has a datatype timestamp, which is updated everytime a row is changed
05:02 chris basically you can see the last time that item was modified
05:02 chris ie if did a update items set issues=3 where barcode='something';
05:02 chris then the timestamp would be updated by mysql
05:03 chris not something you would search on
05:04 thd chris: can you think of any reason to store it in MARC if you were not relying upon the SQL to hold anything needed?
05:05 thd chris: does it have any use for any purpose other than diagnostics?
05:05 chris nope
05:06 thd so maybe I won't map that one either
05:06 thd thanks chris
05:39 [K] <atzberger@FreeNode> back in the morning....f
05:39 [K] *** part FreeNode!#koha: atzberger

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