IRC log for #koha, 2007-03-22

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:27 slef kados: should do.  Got a shop and some admin to get out of the way first.
13:52 hdl kados: Does zebra 2.0.12 require changes in koha.xml structure ?
14:03 hdl rch: Does zebra 2.0.12 require changes in koha.xml structure ?
14:17 hdl going out
15:36 cm hey kados, did you get my email about itemnotes?
08:55 hdl kados Good morning
09:02 slef hi all.  paul: is it OK if I resend your koha-infos news mail to koha@katipo?
09:11 slef what's abouti?
09:12 kados hi hdl
09:13 hdl hi
09:13 dewey what's up, hdl
09:13 hdl how are you ?
09:13 slef hdl: comment traduire "abouti" en anglais?
09:13 hdl finalized ?
09:14 slef close enough for me :)
09:14 hdl dewey had a basic translator. But I cannot remember how it worked.
09:14 dewey hdl: what?
09:15 slef dewey: translate abouti
09:15 dewey slef: sorry...
09:15 slef dewey: translate bonjour from french to english
09:15 dewey slef: what?
09:15 slef dewey: help translate
09:15 hdl dewey: translate aboutir into english
09:15 dewey hdl: i'm not following you...
09:15 slef translator isn't in the help listing
09:15 slef I guess the plugin isn't loaded atm
09:16 hdl kados : Do you use zebra 2.0.12 ?
09:16 hdl It doesnot read my koha.xml file.
09:16 hdl :(
09:16 kados hmmm
09:16 kados I think I had to change bib1.att
09:16 kados iirc
09:17 kados there was a line about rank that wasn't allowed anymore
09:17 hdl 11:34:42-21/03 [log] zebra_start 2.0.12 /home/koha/Code/savannah/k​oha-2.3/etc/koha_head.xml
09:17 hdl 11:34:42-21/03 [warn] The following setting is unrecognized: <server
09:17 hdl 11:34:42-21/03 [warn] The following setting is unrecognized: <serverinfo
09:17 kados what error are you getting?
09:17 kados hmmm
09:17 kados strange
09:18 kados I haven't seen that error before
09:18 kados have you written to the zebralist asking about it?
09:18 hdl neither do I.
09:18 hdl I wrote to support yesterday.
09:18 hdl And tlaked about that without sending logs.
09:19 hdl Is there a channel to talk to them ?
09:19 kados nope
09:19 kados bbiab
09:25 slef hdl: abouti = polished, (context is user interface) perhaps?
09:27 hdl slef: I trust you. abouti has the understatement both handy, user friendly, coherent, complete, nothing else has to be done.
09:31 slef mailbomb mailbomb I'm a mailbomb
09:37 paul kados : let me know when you're back
09:46 slef paul: hope that's OK...
09:46 slef biab
09:56 kados paul: back
09:56 paul did you see & understood my mail on
09:56 paul (hello 1st ;-) )
09:57 kados (hi :-))
09:57 paul I'm asking french libraries to know their opinion on :
09:58 paul 1- koha 3.0 should be released ASAP, whatever the beauty of the internals & GUY
09:58 paul 2- koha can be delayed for, say around 3 months, but not too much more
09:58 paul 3- Koha 3.0 can be delayed until it's "perfect"
09:59 owen paul, define perfect? How is 'perfect' different from option 1 and 2?
10:00 paul I don't use the word "perfect" in my mail.
10:00 paul I explain what you propose to do :
10:00 kados paul: from my perspective, 3.0 is far from ready for release unfortunately
10:00 kados paul: many many  bugs :-)
10:00 paul 1- fix bugs
10:00 paul 2- finish code cleaning
10:00 paul 3- adopt YUI.
10:00 kados right
10:00 paul 1 not being a question => we won't release until it's stable
10:00 kados yep
10:01 paul 2 & 3 being the core of the question in fact...
10:01 kados and 1 is the biggest issue right now IMO
10:01 kados paul: but unless you have resources to finish 1 we will have quite a hard time trying to finish it soon
10:02 paul I know. I can devote some time for bugfixing. not that much, but a real amount.
10:03 kados hmmm
10:04 kados paul: have you gotten responses to your question?
10:04 paul which one ?
10:04 dewey which one is that? :-)
10:05 paul (question)
10:05 paul use of <p> ?
10:05 kados the question to koha-infos about preferences
10:05 js i vote 3
10:05 kados ie, which state the code should be in to be released
10:05 paul not yet. Only 2 answers, my mail is just 3 hours old...
10:05 kados js++
10:05 kados ok
10:05 js hi all
10:06 paul about the use of <p> : the thread was quite long on usenet.
10:06 kados hehe
10:06 kados differing opinions?
10:06 paul it seems it's really a flamewar subject...
10:06 kados did anyone agree with me ? :-)
10:06 paul basically :
10:06 kados hehe
10:06 paul - HTML is NOT semantic, don't spend too much time on trying to do it
10:07 kados ahh, but we use XHTML ;-)
10:07 paul - why would <div><p>...</p></div> be less valid than <div><div>...</div></div>
10:07 paul - validator.w3c accept that without any problem
10:08 paul (although I agree w3c don't have a semantic approach)
10:08 kados you can't have <p><p><p></p></p></p> ...
10:08 paul at the end, nobody saying you're right. nobody saying you're wrong.
10:08 kados so if someone writes <p></p> and later I want to put something else inside that <p>
10:08 paul someone even saying : do what you want and don't care of your partner ;-)
10:08 kados I have to replace it with <div>
10:08 kados hehe
10:09 kados so I always prefer to start with <div> so it never needs to be re-written
10:09 paul why would you need nested <p> ?
10:09 paul (if you have a sample)
10:09 kados sure
10:09 kados so for YUI, it's necessary to break up the page into sections
10:10 kados 'logical' sections
10:10 kados <div id="doc">
10:10 kados 10   <div id="hd"><!-- header --></div>  
10:10 kados 11   <div id="bd"><!-- body --></div>  
10:10 kados 12   <div id="ft"><!-- footer --></div>  
10:10 kados 13</div>
10:10 kados inside of header there are different types of content
10:11 paul so i've strictly nothing against <div id="hd">
10:11 kados and inside of the body, you want to be able to specify how many logical sections there are in the page
10:11 paul in fact, prog templates are somewhat like that atm
10:11 kados so inside 'hd' you have:
10:11 kados <div id="bd">
10:11 kados 3      <div id="yui-main">
10:11 kados 4         <div class="yui-b"></div>
10:11 kados 5      </div>
10:11 kados 6      <div class="yui-b"></div>
10:11 kados </div>
10:12 kados oops, I meant inside of 'bd' :-)
10:12 kados this means that there are two logical 'blocks' in the body
10:13 paul for me, a <p> is the lowest logical block.
10:13 paul so, div in your samples are what I would write.
10:13 paul (and what is in npl/prog, -mistakes excepted-)
10:16 owen I agree with kados, for the most part. <p> should really be reserved for blocks of text.
10:16 paul hi owen.
10:16 paul we agree on this.
10:16 paul but the question is :
10:16 paul <p>surname : Paul</p>
10:16 paul is that or not a "block of text".
10:16 kados that's a definition list :-)
10:17 owen It depends on how you're presenting the information
10:17 kados owen++ :-)
10:17 paul that was proposed by someone on usenet too, and has be violently smashed by someone !
10:17 paul (although it seems to be someone smashing easily)
10:18 kados paul: what was their smashing argument?
10:18 kados was it a good one? :-)
10:18 owen A lot of people feel strongly and strictly about <dl> too.
10:18 paul no arg. Just "it's silly". the king of definitive arg that I really like ;-)
10:18 kados hehe
10:19 paul again : i'm not geek enough at html to argue. I want to understand. If <dl> is agrred, i've no problem with it.
10:20 kados <dl><dt>Surname:</dt><dd>Paul</dd></dl>
10:20 kados that gives you a lot of flexibility in how to present that data
10:21 kados <p>Surname: Paul</p> doesn't give you much
10:21 paul that's why I used <label>
10:21 paul (and now I understand it was wrong)
10:21 kados so IMO if we need the flexibility, lets do it semantically
10:22 paul you're descriptive & persuasive today ;-)
10:22 kados becayse maybe you only need <p><label>Surname</label> Paul</p>
10:22 paul about answers to my mail : I've got the SANOP one by phone (I spoke of it almost 1 hour with Jerome Pouchol)
10:22 kados but what if I need to make Paul something special :-)
10:22 kados I need the <dd> part most likely
10:23 paul i'll write a mail about our conversation later. But he's unhappy with that, although not upset (correct words. not 100% sure)?
10:24 kados paul: he's unhappy about what?
10:24 paul it's main question was "how do we take such decisions in Koha community"
10:24 kados right
10:24 kados it's a reasonable question
10:24 paul sure.
10:25 kados LibLibe? :-)
10:25 kados hehe
10:25 kados that's a new one
10:25 slef paul: we take decisions by trying to build a consensus, but if it's irreconcilable, he who does wins
10:25 slef kados: ytpo ticy?
10:25 kados hehe
10:27 slef kados: sorry about that.  Sometimes names are harder to copy - I usually copy-paste them, but I guess I thought LibLime was simple enough to retype
10:27 slef should be s/manage/manager/ too damnit
10:27 paul kados: ???
10:27 paul (LibLibe ?)
10:28 slef paul: I've forwarded your email to koha@katipo with added ytpos
10:28 slef apparently
10:29 paul ok, understood
10:30 kados as a community we need to decide how to move forward with decision making
10:30 kados because what we've been doing for the past 7 years isn't working efficiently
10:31 slef here it comes, Koha Social Contract
10:31 owen ??
10:31 kados for example, memberentry changes made by san-op upset the US libraries I've mentioned them to
10:32 slef Who's kaitiki(sp?) now?  Rach?
10:32 kados in theory it's still rach
10:32 kados but she hasn't really done anything in years
10:32 kados :-)
10:33 paul right.
10:33 paul and here, we are back to our problem of being a very small community...
10:34 kados so here is my answer to san-op
10:34 kados they can't have everything they want:
10:34 kados 1. a super cheap ILS
10:34 kados 2. a well organized community
10:36 kados if they want #1 they must invest some money :-)
10:36 kados people need to eat
10:38 paul that's also why kohala (french association) is being founded
10:38 paul to move to 2 by having some funding to support the community
10:38 paul (1 paper was missing, it has delayed the official agreement from gov)
10:39 kados hehe
10:39 paul even if the agreement don't mean money. It just mean kohala can ask for money ;-)
10:40 owen Paul, if your libraries in France are impatient for 3.0 and don't mind a few bugs, why don't you install a pre-release version for them?
10:40 paul because I'm really against having 2 branches "dev_paul" & "head" as we have "dev_week" and "rel_2_2"
10:41 paul (+ I'm not sure i've enough strengths to support it)
10:41 kados what do you mean (not enougg strength)
10:41 paul frenchism, right...
10:41 paul s/strengths/ressources/
10:42 kados what do you mean by that?
10:42 kados you don't have resources to support Koha 3.0?
10:42 paul - support 2.2
10:42 paul - support dev_paul
10:42 paul - prepare official 3.0
10:42 paul no, I definetly don't have enough ressources...
10:42 paul + i'm against it from a community pov
10:43 kados IMO if your customers are banging down the door for you to release 3.0 they should be willing to pay you to work out the remaining bugs :-)
10:43 owen paul, my question wasn't about an additional official release, just an install from the latest CVS
10:43 kados it's not fair to you to be expected to release something while worrying about where to get your next meal for a (growing!) family :-)
10:43 paul owen : moving prog to YUI means a lot of changes on templates. I think they won't appreciate having 2 differents GUI parts
10:44 paul kados: ++ for saying "ok for 3.0 now, but give me money ;-)"
10:44 owen Maybe so. In that case I guess they'll have to wait.
10:44 kados some projects hold the release to ransom
10:45 kados ie, we can do X, Y, Z, but only if you fork over $ABC
10:45 paul hehe... I don't think i'm fine with ransom
10:46 slef has YUI been summarised to koha-devel or a blog?  I think Paul's news was the first I saw of it.
10:46 slef (bah, got to recompile gimp - so I can talk for a bit :-/ )
10:47 paul slef : it's something kados spoke yesterday on irc...
10:51 paul - I ain't payin', so I ain't expectin' much.
10:51 kados bbiab
10:51 paul - It wouldn't be right to demand more of you all.
10:51 owen Yes, but other customers /are/ paying! :)
10:52 paul they are paying for 2.2 install and 2.2 support
10:52 paul (at least for me/hdl)
10:52 slef owen: I want more of that sort!
10:53 owen slef, don't you have the UK market cornered? :)
10:54 slef owen: not completely and it's damned conservative
10:54 hdl but french ppl pov is :
10:55 hdl I dont awanna pay much
10:55 hdl But sitill want to have NEC+++.
10:55 hdl :DDD
10:55 slef owen: apparently talis is built on the ashes of a cooperative, so our offer of community and cooperation isn't as attractive as it could be to the big libraries.
10:56 slef owen: smaller libraries moving over mostly don't have much money AFAICT; larger libraries moving over have enough IT staff or understanding to try DIY.
10:57 slef owen: and then there has been one library looking at moving across that I turned away because they're into genetics but won't tell me what they do; but enough of my problems here...
10:58 owen We wouldn't want Koha used for ~~eeevil~~~!!!
10:59 slef I don't mind whether it is or not, but I won't work for evil people.  I'll go back to warehouse work or fruit-picking before that.
11:00 slef I find the whole gene-patenting idea a bit evil because I'm chronically ill.
11:00 slef anyyyyyyway
11:00 slef hdl++
11:01 slef some will pay for install, I'm not sure they're paying enough (slight loss-leader to break into the market) and few will pay for development
11:01 slef is that the same for liblime?
11:06 cm morning all... kados, did you see the email i sent you this morning?  any thoughts?

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