| Time |
S |
Nick |
Message |
| 12:27 |
|
slef |
kados: should do. Got a shop and some admin to get out of the way first. |
| 13:52 |
|
hdl |
kados: Does zebra 2.0.12 require changes in koha.xml structure ? |
| 14:03 |
|
hdl |
rch: Does zebra 2.0.12 require changes in koha.xml structure ? |
| 14:17 |
|
hdl |
going out |
| 15:36 |
|
cm |
hey kados, did you get my email about itemnotes? |
| 08:55 |
|
hdl |
kados Good morning |
| 09:02 |
|
slef |
hi all. paul: is it OK if I resend your koha-infos news mail to koha katipo? |
| 09:11 |
|
slef |
what's abouti? |
| 09:12 |
|
kados |
hi hdl |
| 09:13 |
|
hdl |
hi |
| 09:13 |
|
dewey |
what's up, hdl |
| 09:13 |
|
hdl |
how are you ? |
| 09:13 |
|
slef |
hdl: comment traduire "abouti" en anglais? |
| 09:13 |
|
hdl |
finalized ? |
| 09:14 |
|
slef |
close enough for me :) |
| 09:14 |
|
hdl |
dewey had a basic translator. But I cannot remember how it worked. |
| 09:14 |
|
dewey |
hdl: what? |
| 09:15 |
|
slef |
dewey: translate abouti |
| 09:15 |
|
dewey |
slef: sorry... |
| 09:15 |
|
slef |
dewey: translate bonjour from french to english |
| 09:15 |
|
dewey |
slef: what? |
| 09:15 |
|
slef |
dewey: help translate |
| 09:15 |
|
hdl |
dewey: translate aboutir into english |
| 09:15 |
|
dewey |
hdl: i'm not following you... |
| 09:15 |
|
slef |
translator isn't in the help listing |
| 09:15 |
|
slef |
I guess the plugin isn't loaded atm |
| 09:16 |
|
hdl |
kados : Do you use zebra 2.0.12 ? |
| 09:16 |
|
hdl |
It doesnot read my koha.xml file. |
| 09:16 |
|
hdl |
:( |
| 09:16 |
|
kados |
hmmm |
| 09:16 |
|
kados |
I think I had to change bib1.att |
| 09:16 |
|
kados |
iirc |
| 09:17 |
|
kados |
there was a line about rank that wasn't allowed anymore |
| 09:17 |
|
hdl |
11:34:42-21/03 [log] zebra_start 2.0.12 /home/koha/Code/savannah/koha-2.3/etc/koha_head.xml |
| 09:17 |
|
hdl |
11:34:42-21/03 [warn] The following setting is unrecognized: <server |
| 09:17 |
|
hdl |
11:34:42-21/03 [warn] The following setting is unrecognized: <serverinfo |
| 09:17 |
|
kados |
what error are you getting? |
| 09:17 |
|
kados |
hmmm |
| 09:17 |
|
kados |
strange |
| 09:18 |
|
kados |
I haven't seen that error before |
| 09:18 |
|
kados |
have you written to the zebralist asking about it? |
| 09:18 |
|
hdl |
neither do I. |
| 09:18 |
|
hdl |
I wrote to support yesterday. |
| 09:18 |
|
hdl |
And tlaked about that without sending logs. |
| 09:19 |
|
hdl |
Is there a channel to talk to them ? |
| 09:19 |
|
kados |
nope |
| 09:19 |
|
kados |
bbiab |
| 09:25 |
|
slef |
hdl: abouti = polished, (context is user interface) perhaps? |
| 09:27 |
|
hdl |
slef: I trust you. abouti has the understatement both handy, user friendly, coherent, complete, nothing else has to be done. |
| 09:31 |
|
slef |
mailbomb mailbomb I'm a mailbomb |
| 09:37 |
|
paul |
kados : let me know when you're back |
| 09:46 |
|
slef |
paul: hope that's OK... |
| 09:46 |
|
slef |
biab |
| 09:56 |
|
kados |
paul: back |
| 09:56 |
|
paul |
did you see & understood my mail on infoskoha-fr.org |
| 09:56 |
|
paul |
(hello 1st ;-) ) |
| 09:57 |
|
kados |
(hi :-)) |
| 09:57 |
|
paul |
I'm asking french libraries to know their opinion on : |
| 09:58 |
|
paul |
1- koha 3.0 should be released ASAP, whatever the beauty of the internals & GUY |
| 09:58 |
|
paul |
2- koha can be delayed for, say around 3 months, but not too much more |
| 09:58 |
|
paul |
3- Koha 3.0 can be delayed until it's "perfect" |
| 09:59 |
|
owen |
paul, define perfect? How is 'perfect' different from option 1 and 2? |
| 10:00 |
|
paul |
I don't use the word "perfect" in my mail. |
| 10:00 |
|
paul |
I explain what you propose to do : |
| 10:00 |
|
kados |
paul: from my perspective, 3.0 is far from ready for release unfortunately |
| 10:00 |
|
kados |
paul: many many bugs :-) |
| 10:00 |
|
paul |
1- fix bugs |
| 10:00 |
|
paul |
2- finish code cleaning |
| 10:00 |
|
paul |
3- adopt YUI. |
| 10:00 |
|
kados |
right |
| 10:00 |
|
paul |
1 not being a question => we won't release until it's stable |
| 10:00 |
|
kados |
yep |
| 10:01 |
|
paul |
2 & 3 being the core of the question in fact... |
| 10:01 |
|
kados |
and 1 is the biggest issue right now IMO |
| 10:01 |
|
kados |
paul: but unless you have resources to finish 1 we will have quite a hard time trying to finish it soon |
| 10:02 |
|
paul |
I know. I can devote some time for bugfixing. not that much, but a real amount. |
| 10:03 |
|
kados |
hmmm |
| 10:04 |
|
kados |
paul: have you gotten responses to your question? |
| 10:04 |
|
paul |
which one ? |
| 10:04 |
|
dewey |
which one is that? :-) |
| 10:05 |
|
paul |
(question) |
| 10:05 |
|
paul |
use of <p> ? |
| 10:05 |
|
kados |
the question to koha-infos about preferences |
| 10:05 |
|
js |
i vote 3 |
| 10:05 |
|
kados |
ie, which state the code should be in to be released |
| 10:05 |
|
paul |
not yet. Only 2 answers, my mail is just 3 hours old... |
| 10:05 |
|
kados |
js++ |
| 10:05 |
|
kados |
ok |
| 10:05 |
|
js |
hi all |
| 10:06 |
|
paul |
about the use of <p> : the thread was quite long on usenet. |
| 10:06 |
|
kados |
hehe |
| 10:06 |
|
kados |
differing opinions? |
| 10:06 |
|
paul |
it seems it's really a flamewar subject... |
| 10:06 |
|
kados |
did anyone agree with me ? :-) |
| 10:06 |
|
paul |
basically : |
| 10:06 |
|
kados |
hehe |
| 10:06 |
|
paul |
- HTML is NOT semantic, don't spend too much time on trying to do it |
| 10:07 |
|
kados |
ahh, but we use XHTML ;-) |
| 10:07 |
|
paul |
- why would <div><p>...</p></div> be less valid than <div><div>...</div></div> |
| 10:07 |
|
paul |
- validator.w3c accept that without any problem |
| 10:08 |
|
paul |
(although I agree w3c don't have a semantic approach) |
| 10:08 |
|
kados |
you can't have <p><p><p></p></p></p> ... |
| 10:08 |
|
paul |
at the end, nobody saying you're right. nobody saying you're wrong. |
| 10:08 |
|
kados |
so if someone writes <p></p> and later I want to put something else inside that <p> |
| 10:08 |
|
paul |
someone even saying : do what you want and don't care of your partner ;-) |
| 10:08 |
|
kados |
I have to replace it with <div> |
| 10:08 |
|
kados |
hehe |
| 10:09 |
|
kados |
so I always prefer to start with <div> so it never needs to be re-written |
| 10:09 |
|
paul |
why would you need nested <p> ? |
| 10:09 |
|
paul |
(if you have a sample) |
| 10:09 |
|
kados |
sure |
| 10:09 |
|
kados |
so for YUI, it's necessary to break up the page into sections |
| 10:10 |
|
kados |
'logical' sections |
| 10:10 |
|
kados |
<div id="doc"> |
| 10:10 |
|
kados |
10 <div id="hd"><!-- header --></div> |
| 10:10 |
|
kados |
11 <div id="bd"><!-- body --></div> |
| 10:10 |
|
kados |
12 <div id="ft"><!-- footer --></div> |
| 10:10 |
|
kados |
13</div> |
| 10:10 |
|
kados |
inside of header there are different types of content |
| 10:11 |
|
paul |
so i've strictly nothing against <div id="hd"> |
| 10:11 |
|
kados |
and inside of the body, you want to be able to specify how many logical sections there are in the page |
| 10:11 |
|
paul |
in fact, prog templates are somewhat like that atm |
| 10:11 |
|
kados |
so inside 'hd' you have: |
| 10:11 |
|
kados |
<div id="bd"> |
| 10:11 |
|
kados |
3 <div id="yui-main"> |
| 10:11 |
|
kados |
4 <div class="yui-b"></div> |
| 10:11 |
|
kados |
5 </div> |
| 10:11 |
|
kados |
6 <div class="yui-b"></div> |
| 10:11 |
|
kados |
</div> |
| 10:12 |
|
kados |
oops, I meant inside of 'bd' :-) |
| 10:12 |
|
kados |
this means that there are two logical 'blocks' in the body |
| 10:13 |
|
paul |
for me, a <p> is the lowest logical block. |
| 10:13 |
|
paul |
so, div in your samples are what I would write. |
| 10:13 |
|
paul |
(and what is in npl/prog, -mistakes excepted-) |
| 10:16 |
|
owen |
I agree with kados, for the most part. <p> should really be reserved for blocks of text. |
| 10:16 |
|
paul |
hi owen. |
| 10:16 |
|
paul |
we agree on this. |
| 10:16 |
|
paul |
but the question is : |
| 10:16 |
|
paul |
<p>surname : Paul</p> |
| 10:16 |
|
paul |
is that or not a "block of text". |
| 10:16 |
|
kados |
that's a definition list :-) |
| 10:17 |
|
owen |
It depends on how you're presenting the information |
| 10:17 |
|
kados |
owen++ :-) |
| 10:17 |
|
paul |
that was proposed by someone on usenet too, and has be violently smashed by someone ! |
| 10:17 |
|
paul |
(although it seems to be someone smashing easily) |
| 10:18 |
|
kados |
paul: what was their smashing argument? |
| 10:18 |
|
kados |
was it a good one? :-) |
| 10:18 |
|
owen |
A lot of people feel strongly and strictly about <dl> too. |
| 10:18 |
|
paul |
no arg. Just "it's silly". the king of definitive arg that I really like ;-) |
| 10:18 |
|
kados |
hehe |
| 10:19 |
|
paul |
again : i'm not geek enough at html to argue. I want to understand. If <dl> is agrred, i've no problem with it. |
| 10:20 |
|
kados |
<dl><dt>Surname:</dt><dd>Paul</dd></dl> |
| 10:20 |
|
kados |
that gives you a lot of flexibility in how to present that data |
| 10:21 |
|
kados |
<p>Surname: Paul</p> doesn't give you much |
| 10:21 |
|
paul |
that's why I used <label> |
| 10:21 |
|
paul |
(and now I understand it was wrong) |
| 10:21 |
|
kados |
so IMO if we need the flexibility, lets do it semantically |
| 10:22 |
|
paul |
you're descriptive & persuasive today ;-) |
| 10:22 |
|
kados |
becayse maybe you only need <p><label>Surname</label> Paul</p> |
| 10:22 |
|
paul |
about answers to my mail : I've got the SANOP one by phone (I spoke of it almost 1 hour with Jerome Pouchol) |
| 10:22 |
|
kados |
but what if I need to make Paul something special :-) |
| 10:22 |
|
kados |
I need the <dd> part most likely |
| 10:23 |
|
paul |
i'll write a mail about our conversation later. But he's unhappy with that, although not upset (correct words. not 100% sure)? |
| 10:24 |
|
kados |
paul: he's unhappy about what? |
| 10:24 |
|
paul |
it's main question was "how do we take such decisions in Koha community" |
| 10:24 |
|
kados |
right |
| 10:24 |
|
kados |
it's a reasonable question |
| 10:24 |
|
paul |
sure. |
| 10:25 |
|
kados |
LibLibe? :-) |
| 10:25 |
|
kados |
hehe |
| 10:25 |
|
kados |
that's a new one |
| 10:25 |
|
slef |
paul: we take decisions by trying to build a consensus, but if it's irreconcilable, he who does wins |
| 10:25 |
|
slef |
kados: ytpo ticy? |
| 10:25 |
|
kados |
hehe |
| 10:27 |
|
slef |
kados: sorry about that. Sometimes names are harder to copy - I usually copy-paste them, but I guess I thought LibLime was simple enough to retype |
| 10:27 |
|
slef |
should be s/manage/manager/ too damnit |
| 10:27 |
|
paul |
kados: ??? |
| 10:27 |
|
paul |
(LibLibe ?) |
| 10:28 |
|
slef |
paul: I've forwarded your email to kohakatipo with added ytpos |
| 10:28 |
|
slef |
apparently |
| 10:29 |
|
paul |
ok, understood |
| 10:30 |
|
kados |
as a community we need to decide how to move forward with decision making |
| 10:30 |
|
kados |
because what we've been doing for the past 7 years isn't working efficiently |
| 10:31 |
|
slef |
here it comes, Koha Social Contract |
| 10:31 |
|
owen |
?? |
| 10:31 |
|
kados |
for example, memberentry changes made by san-op upset the US libraries I've mentioned them to |
| 10:32 |
|
slef |
Who's kaitiki(sp?) now? Rach? |
| 10:32 |
|
kados |
in theory it's still rach |
| 10:32 |
|
kados |
but she hasn't really done anything in years |
| 10:32 |
|
kados |
:-) |
| 10:33 |
|
paul |
right. |
| 10:33 |
|
paul |
and here, we are back to our problem of being a very small community... |
| 10:34 |
|
kados |
so here is my answer to san-op |
| 10:34 |
|
kados |
they can't have everything they want: |
| 10:34 |
|
kados |
1. a super cheap ILS |
| 10:34 |
|
kados |
2. a well organized community |
| 10:36 |
|
kados |
if they want #1 they must invest some money :-) |
| 10:36 |
|
kados |
people need to eat |
| 10:38 |
|
paul |
that's also why kohala (french association) is being founded |
| 10:38 |
|
paul |
to move to 2 by having some funding to support the community |
| 10:38 |
|
paul |
(1 paper was missing, it has delayed the official agreement from gov) |
| 10:39 |
|
kados |
hehe |
| 10:39 |
|
paul |
even if the agreement don't mean money. It just mean kohala can ask for money ;-) |
| 10:40 |
|
owen |
Paul, if your libraries in France are impatient for 3.0 and don't mind a few bugs, why don't you install a pre-release version for them? |
| 10:40 |
|
paul |
because I'm really against having 2 branches "dev_paul" & "head" as we have "dev_week" and "rel_2_2" |
| 10:41 |
|
paul |
(+ I'm not sure i've enough strengths to support it) |
| 10:41 |
|
kados |
what do you mean (not enougg strength) |
| 10:41 |
|
paul |
frenchism, right... |
| 10:41 |
|
paul |
s/strengths/ressources/ |
| 10:42 |
|
kados |
what do you mean by that? |
| 10:42 |
|
kados |
you don't have resources to support Koha 3.0? |
| 10:42 |
|
paul |
- support 2.2 |
| 10:42 |
|
paul |
- support dev_paul |
| 10:42 |
|
paul |
- prepare official 3.0 |
| 10:42 |
|
paul |
no, I definetly don't have enough ressources... |
| 10:42 |
|
paul |
+ i'm against it from a community pov |
| 10:43 |
|
kados |
IMO if your customers are banging down the door for you to release 3.0 they should be willing to pay you to work out the remaining bugs :-) |
| 10:43 |
|
owen |
paul, my question wasn't about an additional official release, just an install from the latest CVS |
| 10:43 |
|
kados |
it's not fair to you to be expected to release something while worrying about where to get your next meal for a (growing!) family :-) |
| 10:43 |
|
paul |
owen : moving prog to YUI means a lot of changes on templates. I think they won't appreciate having 2 differents GUI parts |
| 10:44 |
|
paul |
kados: ++ for saying "ok for 3.0 now, but give me money ;-)" |
| 10:44 |
|
owen |
Maybe so. In that case I guess they'll have to wait. |
| 10:44 |
|
kados |
some projects hold the release to ransom |
| 10:45 |
|
kados |
ie, we can do X, Y, Z, but only if you fork over $ABC |
| 10:45 |
|
paul |
hehe... I don't think i'm fine with ransom |
| 10:46 |
|
slef |
has YUI been summarised to koha-devel or a blog? I think Paul's news was the first I saw of it. |
| 10:46 |
|
slef |
(bah, got to recompile gimp - so I can talk for a bit :-/ ) |
| 10:47 |
|
paul |
slef : it's something kados spoke yesterday on irc... |
| 10:51 |
|
paul |
- I ain't payin', so I ain't expectin' much. |
| 10:51 |
|
kados |
bbiab |
| 10:51 |
|
paul |
- It wouldn't be right to demand more of you all. |
| 10:51 |
|
owen |
Yes, but other customers /are/ paying! :) |
| 10:52 |
|
paul |
they are paying for 2.2 install and 2.2 support |
| 10:52 |
|
paul |
(at least for me/hdl) |
| 10:52 |
|
slef |
owen: I want more of that sort! |
| 10:53 |
|
owen |
slef, don't you have the UK market cornered? :) |
| 10:54 |
|
slef |
owen: not completely and it's damned conservative |
| 10:54 |
|
hdl |
but french ppl pov is : |
| 10:55 |
|
hdl |
I dont awanna pay much |
| 10:55 |
|
hdl |
But sitill want to have NEC+++. |
| 10:55 |
|
hdl |
:DDD |
| 10:55 |
|
slef |
owen: apparently talis is built on the ashes of a cooperative, so our offer of community and cooperation isn't as attractive as it could be to the big libraries. |
| 10:56 |
|
slef |
owen: smaller libraries moving over mostly don't have much money AFAICT; larger libraries moving over have enough IT staff or understanding to try DIY. |
| 10:57 |
|
slef |
owen: and then there has been one library looking at moving across that I turned away because they're into genetics but won't tell me what they do; but enough of my problems here... |
| 10:58 |
|
owen |
We wouldn't want Koha used for ~~eeevil~~~!!! |
| 10:59 |
|
slef |
I don't mind whether it is or not, but I won't work for evil people. I'll go back to warehouse work or fruit-picking before that. |
| 11:00 |
|
slef |
I find the whole gene-patenting idea a bit evil because I'm chronically ill. |
| 11:00 |
|
slef |
anyyyyyyway |
| 11:00 |
|
slef |
hdl++ |
| 11:01 |
|
slef |
some will pay for install, I'm not sure they're paying enough (slight loss-leader to break into the market) and few will pay for development |
| 11:01 |
|
slef |
is that the same for liblime? |
| 11:06 |
|
cm |
morning all... kados, did you see the email i sent you this morning? any thoughts? |
