IRC log for #koha, 2007-03-21

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:01 owen We have so many different types of data, I'm not sure we can really choose one method
12:01 kados the semantically correct way to do it is with <dl>
12:02 kados for every definition list we should use dl
12:02 kados IMO
12:02 owen Yes, but how do you define a definition list? :)
12:03 kados Name: Tom Sawyer
12:03 kados that's a definition list :-)
12:04 owen Is the catalogue detail page a definition list as well?
12:04 owen ISBN: 031287863X
12:04 kados looks that way to me
12:04 owen Detailed notes: "A Tom Doherty Associates book."
12:05 owen What other cases are there where we are outputting data like that?
12:05 paul I would say "every where".
12:05 paul member detail for example
12:05 kados any time we have something that looks like:
12:05 kados Label : Value
12:06 kados except for forms
12:32 paul owen: who is supposed to answer to your question ? I don't understand what you're speaking of
12:34 owen I wish I had the definitive answer for how to mark up forms and data. I just think it's odd that we say use  <dl> when outputting, but use labels and paragraphs and whatnot when inputting the data
13:07 kados paragraphs shouldn't be used for inputting IMO
13:07 paul why ? it's not html valid ?
13:07 paul I thought <p> was mandatory even in this case
13:07 kados it's not semantic
13:08 kados <p> should only be used when dealing with actual paragraphs
13:08 paul how do you put 2 input on 2 lines then ?
13:08 kados <div>
13:08 kados wait
13:08 paul wow !
13:08 kados no, I answered to quickly :-)
13:08 paul I can't believe you're right
13:08 kados that's handled in css
13:08 kados not with div
13:08 kados sorry :-)
13:08 paul how do you handle that in css ?
13:08 kados input { display: block; }
13:09 paul mmm... and if you want to have 2 input on & line, then a large textarea just below ?
13:09 kados use classes
13:09 kados one class to put on one line
13:09 kados one to have a large text area
13:10 kados semantics shouldn't be comprimized for presentation IMO
13:10 paul mmm... i can't believe you're right.
13:10 kados otherwise, someone else who wants to present it differently can't easily do it
13:10 kados ask in #html ;-)
13:10 paul you did it ?
13:11 kados <p><input></p> simply isn't semantic
13:11 paul I don't understand why in fact.
13:11 kados because <p> semantically means 'paragraph'
13:11 paul but it is a paragraph according to me.
13:11 kados it is related to a document division
13:11 paul in a form, but a p
13:11 kados nope, what you are talking about is 'presentation'
13:12 kados <p> should never be used to determine presentation
13:12 kados it is used to describe the semantic relationship of one block to another
13:12 paul when I have :
13:12 paul <p>search publicationyear between <input> and <input></p>
13:13 paul <p>limit search to <input> results</p>
13:13 paul that's paragraphs imho
13:13 kados paul: not according to
13:14 kados The organization of information into paragraphs is not affected by how the paragraphs are presented
13:14 paul I don't understand
13:14 kados ok, I will try to explain
13:15 kados semantic markup is used to specify semantic relationships between elements on the page
13:15 kados presentation logic should ideally be separate from semantic markup
13:16 paul mmm... there is a semantic diff between
13:16 paul <p>search publicationyear between <input> and <input></p>
13:16 paul and
13:16 paul <p>limit search to <input> results</p>
13:16 kados yes, but it's not a 'paragraph'
13:16 kados you should use <div>
13:16 kados which is used for generic division
13:17 paul when do you use <p> then ?
13:17 paul (a sample)
13:17 kados in a document
13:17 kados or in a block of text that's equivilent
13:17 kados help file, etc.
13:18 kados so pretend you are a screen reader
13:18 kados if you see <p> you will assume you are in 'document' mode
13:18 kados <div> signals that this is not a document
13:18 kados make sense?
13:18 paul no, sorry...
13:19 paul i'll ask a usenet french forum
13:19 paul maybe in french i'll understand...
13:20 kados div and span are related
13:20 kados they indicate 'generic' divisions
13:20 kados other divisions have specific semantic meaning
13:21 kados <p> means paragraph
13:21 kados <h*> means 'heading'
13:21 kados paul: when do you use div?
13:22 kados IMO, you can have <div><p></p></div> but not <p><div></div></p>
13:22 paul I agree.
13:23 kados and you can always have <div><div></div></div>
13:23 paul <p><span></span></p> is better
13:23 kados nope
13:23 kados they are different
13:23 kados <div> is a block level
13:23 kados <span> is an inline
13:24 paul yes, and in a paragraph, you can just have inlines. otherwise, you have 2 paragraphs in fact.
13:24 kados but we don't have paragraphs :-)
13:24 kados this is an application
13:24 kados so unless it's text, there are no paragraphs
13:24 kados there are instead 'logical divisions' <divs>
13:24 kados and 'inline divisions' <span>
13:24 paul you're saying we should have no <p> in Koha ?
13:25 kados I think we should have <p> in Koha when there is long blocks of text
13:25 paul (that means no p then...)
13:25 kados help files, etc
13:25 kados otherwise, it should be <div> and <span>
13:25 paul (that means almost no p then...)
13:25 kados yep
13:25 kados hardly any <p>
13:26 paul so, how to differentiate the different kinds of <div> ?
13:26 kados div class=type1
13:26 kados div class=type2
13:26 paul and div class="p" ?
13:26 kados ?
13:26 kados why would you need that?
13:26 paul was a joke ;-)
13:26 kados just use a <p> if you have a paragraph
13:26 kados hehe
13:27 paul could you say how many "type" would be needed ?
13:27 kados I haven't counted in fact ;-)
13:27 kados but as few as possible
13:27 paul that's something like 3 or 30 ?
13:27 kados hopefully we only need 5-6 types
13:27 paul ok, I agree with "as few as possible" ;-)
13:28 paul if you clearly define what we need, I candidate to help updating templates.
13:28 paul but you'll have to tell exactly how/what to do
13:28 kados I will try to add to our coding guidelines info on 'semantic' markup
13:29 kados I didn't realize that it wasn't understood :-)
13:29 paul I understand, even if I don't see the benefits...
13:29 kados ok, simple practical benefit
13:30 kados you can have <div><div><div></div></div></div>
13:30 kados but you can't have <p><p><p></p></p></p>
13:30 kados so <div> gives you 'nesting'
13:30 kyle hey paul, kados
13:30 kados hey kyle
13:31 paul hello kyle
13:31 kyle I've a question...
13:31 kados paul: does that make sense?
13:31 paul yep
13:31 kados kyle: sure
13:31 kados paul: so now do you see the benefits? :-)
13:31 kyle I'm adding a warning for failed renewals from
13:31 kados (or one at least?)
13:31 kados kyle++ that's been a bug for a while
13:31 kados or feature enhancement IIRC
13:32 kyle I wanted to add a column for the number of renewals for each item, so I tried <!-- TMPL_VAR name="renewals" --> but it comes up blank.
13:32 paul yes. although they seems not that major to me. but i'll follow you here, as i'm really a rookie.
13:32 kados paul: it's not major unless you try to design nice looking templates ;-)
13:32 paul (I'm only still afraid by the time we will need. and hope you don't forget my concern on this matter)
13:33 kyle It's being pull using which is pulling everything from issues, but the tmpl_var tag is still coming up empty.
13:33 kyle Do I have to explicitly push that on the template params somewhere?
13:35 kados hmmm
13:35 kyle if you have an updated copy of dev_week from cvs, my fix is in there. But it's not fully working. For some reason, even if there are multiple failed renewals, it only says there is one failed renewal. The code that the bug must be in is at the top of
13:38 kados kyle: have you traced the other borrissues stuff to see if it's explicitly pushed out?
13:40 kyle kados: None of the other borissues stuff appears to be explictly pushed out.
13:40 kados that's weird
13:40 kados if the others show up, you'd expect that to as well
13:40 kyle indeed.
13:41 kyle at the bottom of is $template->param($data)
13:51 kyle Well, I fixed the error in my work, I'll commit it now.
13:51 kados kyle++
13:51 kyle I still cannot get the number of renewals to show up, but that's not a big deal.
13:52 kyle How do I alert the other template maintainers of the fix?
13:52 kados in your commit message you could alert them
13:52 kados they all get an email on that
13:53 kados otherwise, if you feel it's important enough you can send a mail to koha-devel
13:53 kados or file a bug on bugzilla
13:53 kados with a explanation of how to patch it
13:53 kados probably the bug would be best
13:53 kados as it won't get lost
13:54 kados ok, I've gotta run
13:54 kados be back a bit later
13:54 kyle is there a bug report for this issue already in there?
15:15 rch hdl: still around?
15:35 cm  kados, are you back?
17:20 hdl rch around ?
17:24 rch hi hdl
17:25 rch was talking with kados re: installer
17:26 rch were you going to add the redirects to prevent opac/intranet access prior to successful install?
17:27 hdl yes. I have to.
17:42 rch hdl: are you running on Debian Linux?
17:43 rch etch?
18:45 qiqo hi
18:45 qiqo anyone up?
18:46 qiqo hello
18:46 dewey bonjour, qiqo
18:46 qiqo hi dewey
18:47 qiqo ive a problem with koha
18:48 chris whats the problem?
18:48 dewey i guess the problem is that it's usually very hard to understand !
18:49 qiqo no not really
18:49 qiqo ermm ive installed koha on a suse 10.2
18:50 qiqo well i found the solution on why the page doesnt load
18:50 qiqo you must set folder permission on koha-httpd.conf
18:50 qiqo however my problem is my apache installation does not recognize SetEnv directive
18:52 chris right you will need to make sure that module is installed
18:52 chris and that apache is loading it
18:52 chris apache 1.3 or apache 2?
18:52 qiqo apache 2
18:53 chris ok what you want to do
18:53 chris is if you look in /etc/apache2/
18:53 dewey Hmm.  No matches for that, chris.
18:53 chris is there a mods_available and mods_enabled dir?
18:54 qiqo nothing
18:55 chris so you have no /etc/apache2 ?
18:55 chris or no mods-enabled dir?
18:55 chris - not _ sorry
18:55 qiqo i have /etc/apache2 directory
18:55 chris whats in there?
18:56 qiqo the folders are:
18:56 qiqo conf.d, extra, ssl.crt, ssl.crl,ssl.key, ssl.rpm, sysconfig.d vhosts.d
18:57 chris hmmm suse sets it up quite different then
18:57 chris anything in sysconfig.d ?
18:58 qiqo i think im figuring it out
18:58 chris basically
18:58 chris LoadModule env_module /usr/lib/apache2/modules/
18:58 qiqo yeah
18:58 chris that line needs to be executed at some point :)
19:00 qiqo ok ill try it again
19:01 chris with debian it involves just symlinking the env.load file from mods-available to mods-enabled
19:01 chris and restarting apache
19:01 chris but im not sure how you do it in suse
19:01 chris you might have to edit the conf
19:02 qiqo ei its loading
19:02 qiqo cool!!!!
19:02 qiqo hehehe
19:02 qiqo i guess i may have to create a how to install on suse then
19:02 chris cool
19:03 chris good idea, write it up on the wiki, there might be a start of somethgin there
19:03 qiqo yeah,,
19:12 qiqo btw my problem now is with the barcode
19:13 qiqo i just want to create a code39 barcode
19:17 mason heya qiqo
19:17 qiqo hi mason
19:17 mason i wrote some of the barcode stuff a while ago
19:17 qiqo i just want a straight forward barcode
19:17 qiqo ahh really?
19:17 qiqo at the mailing list?
19:17 mason there was a bug with the code39 barcodes that i fixed
19:18 qiqo uhh
19:18 qiqo ok
19:18 mason gimme a tick to find it again
19:19 qiqo ok
19:19 mason aaaah, here it is...
19:20 mason so u might need to grab a newwer version of from savannah's cvs
19:20 mason ill get a url for you
19:21 qiqo okie thanks
19:21 qiqo usually when i generate labels.. all i see on the pdf is the word "BOOK" no barcodes whatsoever
19:21 mason try this ->[…]
19:22 mason and put the file in the  /usr/local/koha/internet/modules/C4 dir
19:23 qiqo ok ill check on that'
19:24 mason the bug was that code39 barcodes need to be wrapped in '*' s,
19:24 mason like this,  *123456789*
19:24 qiqo ahh ok
19:25 mason but i think you have a different problem that that
19:25 mason you arnt getting any barcodes at all ? :(
19:25 qiqo yeah
19:25 qiqo :(
19:25 mason do any of the other barcode types work ok?
19:26 qiqo the barcodesgenerator work
19:26 qiqo the label-barcode doesnt
19:26 qiqo ooh code 39 works
19:26 qiqo cool
19:26 qiqo i was using upc a whle ago
19:27 mason woo
19:28 mason ok, now try them with your barcode scanner to make sure they are correct :)
19:28 qiqo yeah it works
19:28 qiqo but
19:28 qiqo i could see the call number
19:28 qiqo just the barcode
19:29 mason ok, lemme check on our dev box for something....
19:30 kados mason: we have a client that still has problems with the code39 production
19:30 mason really?
19:30 kados I think so
19:31 mason i thought the *12345678* bug was the problem , that was fixed?
19:31 kados I think it's something to do with the checksum
19:31 mason yep, that was it
19:31 qiqo is openbiblio active? because i suggested to the head librarian of a public library here to shift to koha
19:31 kados not sure the client was able to get it working
19:32 qiqo they are using openbiblio
19:32 mason kados, this twas the fix ->[…].3.4.5&r2=
19:32 qiqo but openbiblio guys release ob once a year!
19:32 qiqo lol
19:34 kados mason: wow, I  missed that fix
19:34 kados mason: updating and informing client now
19:34 kados mason: thanks!
19:34 qiqo i installed koha in our computer laboratory
19:35 qiqo just to teach people about MARC
19:35 qiqo hehe
19:35 mason bah, my responsibility to inform you josh
19:35 mason qiqo, just settings up barcodes here...
19:35 qiqo ok
19:42 qiqo ei mason,, thank you very much
19:42 qiqo i have to go to school
19:42 qiqo thank you and godbless
19:42 mason ok :(
19:42 mason come back soon and ill help you with the problem
19:42 qiqo thanks really
19:43 qiqo ill be writing a guide on suse
19:43 mason no problem!
04:17 hdl rch : running Mandriva.
04:21 hdl kados still awake ?
06:24 Lea hi!
06:25 Lea My librarian is complaining that koha times out too quickly. Is that a koha setting or apache? Thanks.
06:41 chris more info needed :)
06:42 chris times out in what way ... the authentication?
06:42 chris ie makes them reauthenticate too soon?
06:42 chris if so thats a setting in system preferences
07:19 Lea sorry chris
07:19 Lea was afk
07:20 Lea it's when she's adding a book to the system
07:20 Lea i think her authenticated session times out
09:14 hdl Lea: see in System preferences.
09:14 hdl Lea: timeout parameter.
09:34 hdl kados : hi
09:34 dewey hello, hdl
09:42 Lea hdl: thanks
10:11 slef hello
10:11 dewey niihau, slef
10:11 slef kados: are you in yet?
10:25 slef biab
10:25 slef bbi60+
10:30 hdl slef hi
10:36 kados hey slef
10:36 kados slef: got git installed
10:36 kados slef: and working :-)
10:37 kados slef: is this the week you have some bandwidth to devote to the installer?
10:38 owen 'morning kados
10:39 kados hey owen
10:39 kados howdy
10:39 dewey bonjour, kados
10:40 kados but I'm not sure if everyone's OK with prog having some double spans and other stuff from yui
10:40 kados owen: any thoughts?
10:40 owen That's a tough one.
10:40 kados yea
10:41 owen Do you have an example? Is it the button thing?
10:42 Lea yui rocks
10:42 kados all I have atm are some screenshots
10:42 Lea ooh lets see :D
10:42 owen You use it Lea? I'm just getting to know it
10:42 kados
10:43 Lea i use jquery mainly but I was made aware of yui + yui-ext from a recent merger/collab
10:43 kados meaning, I've implemented some stuff, but it's on my local machine so I can't show it off :-)
10:43 Lea heh
10:43 Lea you seen yui-ext?
10:44 kados no, I hadnt
10:44 owen I'm aware of it, but haven't really looked at it yet
10:44 kados ahh, yea I had seen that
10:45 kados datatable is really slick, but definitely still a beta :/
10:45 owen kados, part of me wants to say that yui stuff should be presentation layer, since theoretically it should all be progressive enhancement
10:46 owen You're finding cases where the markup needs to be altered to suit?
10:46 kados well the markup in head is pretty awful ;-)
10:46 kados so I've been modifying as I go
10:47 kados I'm prob about 80% done with members/
10:47 kados not counting the memberentry stuff which needs a complete re-write
10:47 owen kados, the screenshot looks great, so it looks like you're on the right track
10:48 kados the other idea we had was to commit my modifs as a 'liblime' template
10:48 owen I'd hate to see your markup-cleaning only make it into a separate template
10:49 kados yea
10:49 kados IKWYM
10:49 Lea btw guys, jquery is VERY good
10:49 kados Lea: yea, I plan to look more closely at the ajax stuff shortly
10:49 owen Lea, any thoughts about how it compares to YUI?
10:50 Lea i wrote a really cool little webapp yesterday in 1 hour that allows you to enter a youtube URL, it'll dl the video locally and generate code that you can insert in moodle to view the video. Jquery is slick
10:50 Lea i can help with ajax stuff if you like, although I'm no expert
10:50 Lea I've not looked at YUI yet but it looks neat
10:51 kados owen: one thing that has to be included for grids (of course) is the correct class names
10:51 Lea AFAICT, you can intermix JS libraries, so you could use jquery+yui no problem. I *think*.
10:51 kados owen: which are yui specific
10:52 owen That's just layout stuff, right?
10:52 kados it's just things like <div class="yui-b">
10:54 kados but there's also some javascript and css
10:54 kados that's a bit less pretty
10:54 kados for buttons/links
10:55 paul hello guys
10:56 kados hi paul
10:56 paul kados : the guys that answered on usenet forum are as septical as me about <p> removal.
10:57 kados I'm sorry to hear that
10:57 owen I guess if we're really going to be strict with the concept of the prog templates, we'd have to say no to the YUI stuff
10:57 kados the bottom line is that <p><p></p></p> is illegal whereas <div><div></div></div> isn't
10:57 owen But maybe the concept of the prog templates has never really worked
10:57 kados owen: *nod*
10:57 kados yea
10:57 kados on both accounts
10:58 kados the prob with prog templates
10:58 kados 1. they are not really prog templates :-)
10:58 kados 2. we have to do twice the work to maintain
10:59 kados the problem is no prog templates
10:59 kados 1. developers don't use design principles when laying out their html (they are programmers so that's ok)
10:59 paul kados : the concept of prog template never enthusiamed me. so, i have no problem abandonning them...
11:00 kados paul: but if we share a set of templates, we need to agree to a set of guidelines
11:00 paul and I still think (since more than 1 year...) that even developpers can write correct HTML if they have correct directions.
11:00 paul you beat me ;-)
11:00 kados :-)
11:01 paul I repeat what I said yesterday : give/write clear method to write templates, and i will obey.
11:02 owen I hoped that developers wouldn't have to use design principles when laying out their HTML.
11:02 paul owen : I think that's a good idea ... with enough developpers & template designers
11:03 paul that we don't have.
11:05 owen Then I think we're at a point were the Release Manager gets to decide what goes into the templates
11:06 kados I think the advantages that yui give us outweigh the minor problems with having it as the core template system
11:08 paul kados : what are the advantages ?
11:09 paul only a clear & standard GUI
11:09 Lea The reality is, most people will probably use the intranet interface as is and never change it. The opac on the other hand is the opposite.
11:09 paul or something else
11:09 Lea *by internet, I mean the admin stuff
11:09 paul ALL french users uses released templates.
11:09 paul (for admin I mean)
11:09 kados right
11:09 kados
11:10 kados well I'm addicted to Grids
11:10 paul Grids ?
11:10 kados it's the perfect solution to layout IMO
11:10 kados paul: in YUI grids is the layout module
11:11 kados and I really like YUI buttons too
11:11 kados to make a nice button all I need is:
11:11 kados <span class="linkbuttons" id="linkbutton1"><span class="first-child"><a href="/cgi-bin/koha/members/membere​;guarantorid=<!-- TMPL_VAR NAME="borrowernumber" -->&amp;category_type=C">Add child</a></span></span>
11:13 kados don't think the double span is even necessary come to think of it
11:13 paul class="linkbuttons first-child" should work
11:13 rch kados: I imagine grids are not supported in older browsers.  Do we lose sorting functionality if these become default templates?
11:14 kados rch: datatable is what gives us the table sorting
11:14 kados rch: and grids do degrade well if your page layout is sane
11:14 kados I've tested all my designs with lynx
11:14 kados for sanity
11:14 kados and they are usable
11:15 rch just not resortable ?
11:15 kados right
11:15 kados cuz that's done entirely in js
11:15 rch yui docs say firefox 1.5+ and ie6+
11:15 kados but honestly datatable's got some bugs
11:16 rch for 'full support'...
11:16 kados yea
11:16 kados we should definitely test the older browsers
11:16 kados but our current templates don't degrade well to be hontest :-)
11:16 kados esp with IE
11:17 paul rch / kados : on admin interface, we can say "firefox X.X or IE Y.Y needed"
11:17 paul so that's not a problem imho
11:17 kados paul: *nod*
11:18 kados brbr
11:18 rch Sure, and on the opac side, all the yui stuff will be enhancements, so not a problem if they don't quite work right on older browsers.
11:30 kados ok, so I'll commit my yui stuff, after I clean it a bit
11:30 kados and I'll stick to just grids and button for now
11:30 kados since datatable has some bugs
11:30 kados paul: that OK with you?
11:31 paul yep. then, i'll summarize what I've understood on koha-devel.
11:31 paul and if I'm right, let's modify templates...
11:31 paul (just to avoid doing things a 3rd time...)
11:32 kados yep

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