| Time |
S |
Nick |
Message |
| 12:52 |
|
kados |
paul around? |
| 15:03 |
|
rach |
morning |
| 15:04 |
|
kados |
morning rach |
| 15:04 |
|
rach |
is owen about? |
| 15:04 |
|
owen |
Sure is |
| 15:05 |
|
rach |
we (well bob actually :-) has nearly finished our black and white version of the templates |
| 15:05 |
|
owen |
Wow, that's great! |
| 15:05 |
|
kados |
sweet! |
| 15:07 |
|
rach |
we're testing at the moment, but they do make a big difference :-) |
| 15:07 |
|
owen |
Is it possible to have a look? |
| 15:07 |
|
rach |
yep I'm sure we could do that - I'll sort you out a username/pword |
| 15:09 |
|
kados |
rach these are html templates? |
| 15:10 |
|
paul |
can I have a look too ? |
| 15:10 |
|
paul |
hi rach. |
| 15:10 |
|
rach |
yep |
| 15:10 |
|
kados |
rach I've some news too ... Emiliano finally caughed up some code ;-) |
| 15:11 |
|
anacaona |
can i see? |
| 15:11 |
|
anacaona |
please? |
| 15:11 |
|
anacaona |
pretty please? |
| 15:11 |
|
kados |
so now, armed with SAN's list and Emiliano's code I can begin a roadmap |
| 15:11 |
|
kados |
for 2.4 |
| 15:11 |
|
anacaona |
pretty please with sugar on top? |
| 15:11 |
|
kados |
but that'll have to wait until after ALA ;-) |
| 15:11 |
|
rach |
ok now you I don't know :-) |
| 15:11 |
|
kados |
anacaona: ha! |
| 15:12 |
|
paul |
(kiwis don't like sugar on top. They prefer chocolate...) |
| 15:12 |
|
russ |
well while we are all sharing news - i have been making some progress with the website redev |
| 15:12 |
|
russ |
http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz/kohawebredev/ |
| 15:12 |
|
kados |
great ... sounds like we're ready for another meeting ;-) |
| 15:12 |
|
kados |
since you're all here ... let's schedule it |
| 15:13 |
|
anacaona |
well. i can hardly argue with chocolate. |
| 15:13 |
|
rach |
it's not a "live" system - as in, not running a library, but it is real data etc |
| 15:13 |
|
paul |
what is this b&w done for ? |
| 15:14 |
|
rach |
ah excellent question :-) |
| 15:14 |
|
kados |
so are these templates based on NPL code or redesigned from the grouond up? |
| 15:14 |
|
rach |
we (me especially :-) have been finding it hard to use/follow/test koha using the default and npl templates |
| 15:15 |
|
rach |
they are based on the best (IMO if there has been a question) of both |
| 15:15 |
|
rach |
so the homepage is from NPL, some of the the others are from default |
| 15:15 |
|
kados |
hmmm ... |
| 15:15 |
|
kados |
one criticism (from a usability perspective) |
| 15:15 |
|
rach |
yep |
| 15:15 |
|
kados |
missing the NPL sidebar |
| 15:16 |
|
rach |
yep - on purpose |
| 15:16 |
|
kados |
so I have to reload pages every time I want to do something |
| 15:16 |
|
kados |
instead of just using shortkeys |
| 15:16 |
|
kados |
and barcode scanners |
| 15:16 |
|
rach |
ah are they in the sidebar? |
| 15:16 |
|
kados |
yep |
| 15:16 |
|
rach |
these aren't meant to be used by any library to run |
| 15:16 |
|
kados |
ahh ... are these programmer templates? |
| 15:17 |
|
rach |
what I wanted, is a set of plain templates, that would be easy to add features to |
| 15:17 |
|
kados |
gotcha |
| 15:17 |
|
rach |
that then could be put into your colour scheme etc of choice |
| 15:17 |
|
rach |
but you could do the basic testing, without getting distracted |
| 15:18 |
|
rach |
but if we've ripped out the key commands, for going to different sections I can get them put back I hope :-) |
| 15:18 |
|
kados |
well they can't be there unless you've also got input boxes |
| 15:19 |
|
owen |
I think we need an even more stripped-down version to act as the programmer templates |
| 15:19 |
|
rach |
really? |
| 15:19 |
|
owen |
Something with zero usability :) |
| 15:19 |
|
rach |
:-) |
| 15:19 |
|
kados |
i agree |
| 15:19 |
|
owen |
No tables, no page formatting, no nothing |
| 15:19 |
|
owen |
Just H1, H2, FORM, INPUT, etc. |
| 15:19 |
|
kados |
yep ... there's still quite a bit of html bloat |
| 15:19 |
|
rach |
hmm - the only problem we've found with that |
| 15:20 |
|
rach |
is that if it's too ugly, it again gets hard for other people to test |
| 15:20 |
|
kados |
hard for an Interface designer to manage changes with all that extra html |
| 15:20 |
|
rach |
in our other projects, we've found that a basic set of styles, and plain, but not hideous gets a reasonable balance |
| 15:21 |
|
rach |
but to do it all with styles if we can - which I suspect isn't the case here, as we have just taken the existing templates, rather than starting from scratch |
| 15:21 |
|
kados |
but the programmer templates aren't really for user testing |
| 15:21 |
|
kados |
IMO |
| 15:21 |
|
rach |
yeah - well the way we do it usually they are - so you get the user (who might be me for example) to make sure it all makes sense |
| 15:22 |
|
rach |
and they can follow it |
| 15:22 |
|
rach |
so we'll get rangitikei to test their data conversion on these templates |
| 15:22 |
|
rach |
so that their data "stands out" |
| 15:23 |
|
russ |
i think you are talking about testing at two different times |
| 15:23 |
|
kados |
yep |
| 15:23 |
|
russ |
development for a new version and deploying the system before doing some design for a given client |
| 15:23 |
|
russ |
s/and/vs |
| 15:23 |
|
owen |
The first 'testing' round is really the developer building new functionality and making sure it works |
| 15:24 |
|
russ |
well what we have done in the past is build complete static scenarios |
| 15:24 |
|
russ |
using a template such as this |
| 15:24 |
|
owen |
A minimal programmer template would allow the template-writer to easily see what changes were made, so that they could be copied into the working template |
| 15:24 |
|
russ |
for testing |
| 15:24 |
|
russ |
sorry i mean usability testing |
| 15:25 |
|
russ |
to test a functionality before any code is written |
| 15:25 |
|
kados |
so functionality testing then ;-) |
| 15:25 |
|
russ |
but i am not sure if that is appropriate here |
| 15:27 |
|
kados |
russ, rach, owen , paul |
| 15:27 |
|
kados |
http://tinyurl.com/d47p3 |
| 15:28 |
|
kados |
Tuesday, June 28, 2005 at 20:00:00 |
| 15:28 |
|
kados |
good for the next Website/Interface Design Meeting? |
| 15:28 |
|
russ |
sorry i cant make that time |
| 15:28 |
|
paul |
not at home on 28. |
| 15:28 |
|
russ |
i have a seminar |
| 15:28 |
|
kados |
ok ... |
| 15:28 |
|
paul |
(but i can't be everywhere...) |
| 15:28 |
|
kados |
russ: what time is better? |
| 15:28 |
|
paul |
(& design/interface is really not my specialty ;-) ) |
| 15:28 |
|
kados |
paul: right ;-) |
| 15:28 |
|
paul |
(i'll request hdl to be here) |
| 15:28 |
|
russ |
later in the week is better - weds or friday |
| 15:29 |
|
kados |
ok |
| 15:29 |
|
paul |
(he's my employee, so I can give him some directions ;-) ) |
| 15:29 |
|
kados |
20:00 on Wed ok? |
| 15:29 |
|
kados |
20 GMT that is ;-) |
| 15:29 |
|
paul |
ok |
| 15:30 |
|
kados |
russ, owen, rach? |
| 15:30 |
|
rach |
ok for me |
| 15:30 |
|
russ |
yep |
| 15:30 |
|
paul |
(announce it to koha-devel, that's ok for me/hdl) |
| 15:30 |
|
kados |
ok ... i'll send an email in a bit |
| 15:31 |
|
rach |
I have a 10 am meeting - so max 1.5 hrs meeting for me :-) |
| 15:38 |
|
rach |
so owen can you achieve the sort of lined up look for the form fields with css? |
| 15:38 |
|
paul |
have a good day koha fans. |
| 15:39 |
|
rach |
good night paul |
| 15:39 |
|
rach |
nice to catch you :-) |
| 15:39 |
|
owen |
rach, there are ways to go about it (paul's templates attempt this in various places) |
| 15:39 |
|
owen |
However, I'm not so fanatical about CSS that I go this route |
| 15:39 |
|
owen |
I use tables to structure forms most of the time |
| 15:40 |
|
rach |
ah I see - there are lots of tables in there |
| 15:40 |
|
owen |
But I try to keep it simple, and only include label-input pairs in the table |
| 15:40 |
|
owen |
Basically, I try to keep it as semantically correct as possible |
| 15:41 |
|
rach |
if we get the time we can try to rip some more of them out - I have no objection, it's just been that we've needed to get it looking simpler quickly :-) |
| 15:42 |
|
owen |
The ideal situation would be to get a set of templates that were in pristine condition--ready to have a brilliant stylesheet applied to them to perform any necessary layout and formatting tricks. |
| 15:43 |
|
rach |
ah yes :-) how do we get to this nirvana |
| 15:43 |
|
owen |
It involves some mountain-climbing, I think |
| 15:43 |
|
rach |
slef is our purist |
| 15:43 |
|
rach |
but does he do html? |
| 15:45 |
|
rach |
maybe ben and shaun, but it really is a special sort of person who likes that sort of thing |
| 15:45 |
|
kados |
it's not worth it |
| 15:45 |
|
owen |
I think ben and shaun are more suited to the styling stage than the stripping-down stage |
| 15:45 |
|
owen |
How do you mean, kados? |
| 15:46 |
|
kados |
well .. .some of the data demands tabular design IMO |
| 15:46 |
|
rach |
yep - our guy richard might be the best at it, I'll see if I can get him and bob talking today |
| 15:46 |
|
kados |
getting all the bugs (in the browsers, not in the html) is too much of a pain to deal with |
| 15:47 |
|
owen |
tabular data demands a table. There's nothing wrong with that. |
| 15:47 |
|
kados |
right ... sorry i didn't read the whole thing ^^^ |
| 15:47 |
|
rach |
yep - but there are some extra tables even in our plain ones that probably don't need to be there |
| 15:47 |
|
kados |
for a stripped down version you don't need tables as much |
| 15:48 |
|
kados |
(I meant for a production version) |
| 15:48 |
|
rach |
yep - so if we kept them for the data display, and the forms, and got the rest out, wouldn't be a bad thing |
| 15:49 |
|
kados |
yep |
| 15:58 |
|
owen |
"Seattle PL Releases RSS Feeds Out into the Wild": http://www.theshiftedlibrarian[…]nto_the_wild.html |
| 15:59 |
|
owen |
It'd be great if we could get some user-centered RSS feeds into Koha |
| 16:00 |
|
owen |
Is there any reason to question the practice of sending barcode and password through the URL? |
| 16:00 |
|
owen |
The examples are over SSL, at least |
| 16:12 |
|
kados |
well ... the url isn't ssled ;-) |
| 16:13 |
|
kados |
sending the userid is probably ok ... but I'd question sending the password |
| 16:14 |
|
kados |
unless there was another layer of authentication |
| 16:15 |
|
owen |
How else would you do an RSS feed for a particular user? |
| 16:18 |
|
kados |
well ... if you're going that route you'd want to dissasociate the system userid and the rss id |
| 16:19 |
|
kados |
otherwise I could subscribe to anyone's account rss feed and associate going's on with their barcode number |
| 16:19 |
|
kados |
(so a husband could monitor his wife's account if he knew her barcode number) |
| 16:19 |
|
kados |
(say) |
| 16:20 |
|
owen |
You'd have to have an id/password combo, though, so that people couldn't just plug in random numbers |
| 16:20 |
|
kados |
yea ... or just use some kind of random number generator |
| 16:21 |
|
kados |
(course, that'd be harder to remember ) |
| 16:21 |
|
kados |
hmmm |
| 16:22 |
|
owen |
I was thinking you could have the system generate the URL string on the user's home page, so that they have to log in to get it. From there they can plug it in to their RSS reader |
| 16:22 |
|
kados |
yea ... so that seattle implementation is from the devil |
| 16:22 |
|
kados |
it's sooo easy to snif urls |
| 16:23 |
|
kados |
you can practly do it looking at an ethernet cable |
| 16:23 |
|
kados |
:-) |
| 16:23 |
|
kados |
owen: that sounds like it would work |
| 16:24 |
|
kados |
it's really important to dissacosiate user/password from the actual rss link |
| 16:24 |
|
kados |
if I had time I'd write a response to that article |
| 16:24 |
|
rach |
do you guys use the recent acquisitions bit in the opac? |
| 16:25 |
|
kados |
"Seatle PL Releases User/Password information out into the Wild |
| 16:25 |
|
kados |
last time I remmeber it didn't work |
| 16:26 |
|
owen |
Yeah...it uses the 'last modified' value I think |
| 16:26 |
|
kados |
yea ... |
| 16:26 |
|
owen |
Meaning all sorts of non-new stuff shows up |
| 16:26 |
|
rach |
ah well that would explain something :-) |
| 16:26 |
|
kados |
owen wrote his own version |
| 16:26 |
|
kados |
owen: is that php? |
| 16:26 |
|
owen |
Yeah |
| 16:26 |
|
kados |
well you might as well commit it |
| 16:26 |
|
rach |
share :-) |
| 16:27 |
|
owen |
No reason why it couldn't be easily ported to Perl by someone with more skill than I |
| 16:27 |
|
rach |
I guess we have our own version too - http://www.lgnz.co.nz/ |
| 16:27 |
|
rach |
brings up the latest additions |
| 16:29 |
|
rach |
so anyone know how "recent" it is picking up? |
| 16:29 |
|
rach |
changes in the last week? |
| 16:29 |
|
owen |
It searches everything and returns the results ordered by date, descending |
| 16:30 |
|
owen |
So as you go down the list the acquisitions get older and older |
| 16:30 |
|
owen |
Only there's something going on there I don't understand, because it doesn't actually return EVERYTHING. |
| 16:30 |
|
rach |
erg - in our larger db that sounds like a minus |
| 16:30 |
|
owen |
It puts some kind of limit on it |
| 16:30 |
|
owen |
Here's ours, by the way: http://search.athenscounty.lib[…]format-search.php |
| 16:33 |
|
owen |
That's specifically for item-type based searches |
| 16:33 |
|
rach |
that's cool |
| 16:34 |
|
rach |
is more what I had in mind :-) |
| 16:38 |
|
owen |
There's nothing particularly useful in the code other than the queries |
| 16:38 |
|
owen |
(and those aren't especially complex, it's just that no one had done them yet) |
| 19:24 |
|
kados |
chris: I figure you'd know best -- any clue what kind of bandwidth overhead the libraries you're supporting use for circ/searching transactions? |
| 19:25 |
|
chris |
very little |
| 19:25 |
|
chris |
bearing in mind we wrote koha precisely because we wanted a very low bandwidht solution |
| 19:25 |
|
kados |
right ... thought I remembered that |
| 19:25 |
|
chris |
its bloated somewhat since the initial version |
| 19:26 |
|
kados |
yea |
| 19:26 |
|
chris |
but is still low bandwidth |
| 02:29 |
|
jeanlog |
hi |
| 02:29 |
|
hdl |
hi |
| 02:32 |
|
rach |
hi |
| 03:06 |
|
osmoze |
hello |
| 04:35 |
|
osmoze_ |
bonjour Paul, bien dormit ? ;) |
| 04:36 |
|
paul |
réveillé depuis longtemps, ne pas croire que j'ai dormi jusqu'à maintenant ;-) |
| 04:39 |
|
osmoze_ |
ahh....etre papa a bien ses joies :) |
| 06:12 |
|
chris |
evening paul |
| 07:10 |
|
kados |
paul: it sounds like the french libraries are scared of zebra |
| 07:10 |
|
paul |
hi joshua. |
| 07:10 |
|
kados |
hi ;-) |
| 07:10 |
|
paul |
scared, not really, i think. |
| 07:10 |
|
paul |
but afraid by 2 things : |
| 07:11 |
|
paul |
* having a koha impossible to setup without an expert |
| 07:11 |
|
kados |
(it's not now?) |
| 07:11 |
|
paul |
* having a new-hitech-top-technology but not what they need everyday from a functionnal point of view. |
| 07:11 |
|
kados |
right |
| 07:12 |
|
paul |
I have at least 3-4 libraries in france that don't ask anybody to setup Koha, so it's possible. |
| 07:12 |
|
kados |
I'm not sure what to do about the first one |
| 07:12 |
|
paul |
my opinion is : continue investigating zebra to find how to have tools to set it easily. |
| 07:13 |
|
kados |
My position is that we don't sacrifice functionality even if it means we have a slightly more technical setup |
| 07:13 |
|
paul |
zebra is easy to install (make/make install) |
| 07:13 |
|
kados |
yep ... seems so ... |
| 07:13 |
|
paul |
but not to parameter. |
| 07:13 |
|
kados |
right ... |
| 07:13 |
|
paul |
so we have to find a way to ease the parameter process. |
| 07:14 |
|
paul |
mme masson is a 55years old librarian that worked in many libraries. |
| 07:14 |
|
kados |
I think it's all done with the configuration and mapping files |
| 07:14 |
|
paul |
and even in "ministere of culture". |
| 07:14 |
|
kados |
right |
| 07:14 |
|
paul |
so, she knows developpers... |
| 07:14 |
|
paul |
when they have a boring stuff & an interesting one, they alway choose the interesting. |
| 07:14 |
|
kados |
here's something else I've been thinking about: |
| 07:14 |
|
paul |
& zebra is VERY interesting... |
| 07:15 |
|
paul |
(she thinks & i agree ;-) ) |
| 07:15 |
|
kados |
if a library is complaining about 'bugs' or 'missing features' or 'things they want koha do do better' |
| 07:15 |
|
kados |
they can sponsor 'fixes' for these at any time |
| 07:15 |
|
paul |
so, she want to be sure zebra won't take the place of something else ;-) |
| 07:15 |
|
paul |
ENSMP already sponsors a lot of fixes/improvements |
| 07:15 |
|
paul |
(sylvain, from doxulting is hired by ENSMP in fact) |
| 07:16 |
|
paul |
(+some fees for me/hdl) |
| 07:16 |
|
kados |
right |
| 07:16 |
|
kados |
so I don't see how Zebra will interfere with that process |
| 07:16 |
|
paul |
but atm, i almost have fixed all what they requested. |
| 07:16 |
|
paul |
me too. but that's what mme masson want to be sure I think. |
| 07:17 |
|
paul |
(just answering a few minuts ago, did you read my mail ?) |
| 07:17 |
|
kados |
right ... I wish my French was better ... I'd reply something along those lines |
| 07:17 |
|
paul |
feel free to answer in english, i'll translate. |
| 07:17 |
|
kados |
ok |
| 07:17 |
|
kados |
thx ;-) |
| 07:45 |
|
paul |
hi again francoisl |
| 07:45 |
|
FrancoisL |
'lo Paul ! nice lunch ? |
| 07:45 |
|
paul |
yep |
| 07:46 |
|
paul |
(with childrens. compétition du sport national des cantinières aujourd'hui... grève) |
