IRC log for #koha, 2009-10-08

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
00:22 chris[…]uakes-off-Vanuatu
00:22 chris :(
00:24 pianohacker yikes
00:24 pianohacker yet another tsunami - I hope this one isn't as damaging
00:24 pianohacker good luck, chris
00:25 chris yeah i hope it is a false alarm
00:25 mason 3 in 1 week?
00:26 pianohacker you too, mason, Jo
00:27 mason heya, yep
00:28 pianohacker south
00:28 pianohacker _pacific/*, for that matter. at least the initial earthquake did less damage
00:29 chris yeah, theres not much left in samoa too damage
00:29 chris to even
00:44 chris alert cancelled
00:48 gmcharlt joined #koha
00:50 chris heya gmcharlt
00:51 gmcharlt hi chris
00:51 * gmcharlt loves in-flight wifi
00:53 chris :)
00:55 ricardo joined #koha
00:55 ricardo Hi all
00:56 ricardo chris: stll here?
00:56 chris yep
00:57 ricardo chris: Great!  :)
00:57 ricardo With the help of hdl, I located a problem in the PO file... and I fixed it
00:57 chris its weird that it was working fine for me
00:57 chris with the version from git
00:58 chris still does in fact
00:58 ricardo chris: Yeah, weird... But when doing this small correction, when I re-generate the templates, all dirs appear
00:59 chris best fix it in pootle too then, so it makes it into git
01:00 chris or tell me what line and ill fix it
01:00 ricardo chris: Hmm.... The fix is pretty small (just 2 lines).[…]b987b95f;hb=3.0.x
01:00 ricardo[…]b987b95f;hb=3.0.x
01:00 ricardo It's in lines 5635 to 5638 of that file
01:01 ricardo Basically line 5637 should go away
01:02 ricardo and the content of line 5638 should go inside the quotes of line 5636 (the msgstr "" line)
01:03 chris ahh another reason why not to use a text editor to edit .po files :-)
01:03 ricardo Should I submit this as a patch, do you want to fix this yourself or should it be easy for me to do this with Pootle?
01:03 * chris will fix and commit it
01:03 ricardo chris: Great, thanks!  :)
01:03 ricardo Oops
01:03 ricardo Small fix-to-the-fix
01:04 ricardo When you put the contents of line 5638 inside the quotes of line 5636...
01:04 ricardo you must change "<a2>" to "<a1>"
01:05 ricardo Clear enough?  :-/
01:05 ricardo chris ?
01:05 chris yep there is an error on the one below it too, will fix that
01:06 chris also
01:07 ricardo chris: Yeah... The one below was not so serious, but sure... it makes sense so correct that as well, while you're at it
01:09 chris pushing now
01:10 ricardo chris: Cool  :)
01:10 ricardo Seeing them now
01:11 ricardo chris: Many thanks  :)
01:12 chris no worries
01:13 ricardo This was one hard and strange bug to debug (cause and effect were not really logical, apparently)
01:13 chris yeah and it must be related to a version of gettext
01:13 chris since here it just skipped over that and did the rest
01:14 ricardo chris: Interesting... What is your distro / version? What version of gettext are you running?
01:14 chris debian unstable
01:15 chris gettext (GNU gettext-runtime) 0.17
01:17 ricardo # more /etc/debian_version
01:18 ricardo 5.0.3
01:18 ricardo # gettext --version
01:18 ricardo gettext (GNU gettext-runtime) 0.17
01:18 chris weird
01:20 ricardo yeah
01:20 pianohacker same here, with same observed effects as ricardo
01:20 ricardo pianohacker: Thanks for the feedback... Some other difference then.
01:23 ricardo (and there's my 1st "silent" conflict in git... a merge done too well. Don't worry: it's NOT related to the problem we were discussing here. It was related to C4/
01:24 ricardo Maybe I should undo my commits locally after sending them by "git-send-email"?
01:25 chris nope
01:25 chris but you shouldnt be doing your commits on master
01:25 ricardo chris: Don't worry. I'm NOT doing that  :)
01:25 chris or 3.0.x etc
01:25 ricardo right...
01:25 ricardo I only use those 2 for pulling
01:25 chris good :)
01:26 chris once i submit my patches, my branch is done
01:26 ricardo I have "rickoha30x" and "rickohamaster" for commiting / rebasing / merging
01:26 chris and i start a new one
01:26 ricardo chris: That's what I was thinking...
01:26 ricardo (once i submit my patches, my branch is done)
01:26 chris (i leave it there, just dont use it)
01:26 ricardo Right
01:27 pianohacker chris: do you remove the branch on acceptance of patch
01:27 pianohacker ?
01:27 chris sometimes
01:27 ricardo chris: In this case "hdl" didn't apply my proposed patch to the file (C4/, but instead changed something else in the file (and I agreed to that)... So, if I do a git pull, the file gets BOTH changes and, in this case, it should only keep hdl change
01:27 chris yeah
01:28 chris i never pull into my work branches
01:28 chris i fetch and rebase my 3.0.x and master one .. then merge into my work branch
01:29 chris pianohacker: if i have pushed that branch up remotely somewhere, then yep i delete it locally
01:29 ricardo chris: rebase? But if you're cleaning your 3.0.x / master "clean", you don't have local commits in those branches to rebase on top of their "origin"s... right?
01:30 ricardo s/ if you're cleaning/if you're keeping
01:30 chris nope but i still like to rebase versus merge
01:30 chris on my pristine branches
01:31 pianohacker for what reason? if it's a clean pull (fast-forward), it's the same difference, no?
01:31 ricardo chris: Well, I think in that case it makes no difference. But, yeah... if you don't "touch" those branches, maybe rebasing instead of merging, avoids getting some "merge" messages in the commit history, not sure
01:31 chris yep, it does
01:31 chris you dont end up wiht merge messages
01:32 ricardo chris: That's the only advantage (and difference) that I see, between both approaches, for a "pure mirror" scenario, like the one you're describing
01:32 chris yep thats the reason i do it
01:32 ricardo OK :)
01:33 chris because i push from there up to gitorious and github
01:33 ricardo I'm officially now TWO steps above... git newbie!  ;-)
01:33 chris and i dont want to push up all the merge stuff
01:33 ricardo chris: OK
01:33 chris basically i want it to be an exact mirror
01:33 ricardo chris: RIGHT!
01:36 thd chris: what was the Koha wiki using before DokuWiki?
01:37 chris cant remember
01:38 thd chris: Yet there was one previously?
01:38 chris yes
01:38 chris for ages
01:38 chris hosted by roger buck in australia
01:39 chris march 20, 2002 it started
01:39 pianohacker do you have a url? earliest in wayback is 2006 as dokuwiki
01:39 thd yes so was not the URL?
01:39 chris nope
01:40 chris it was
01:40 chris then it moved to
01:40 chris
01:41 chris didnt move to until after liblime existed, sometime in 2006
01:41 chris or late 2005
01:43 pianohacker based on[…], seems to be something called tavi
01:44 chris it did the job
01:44 ricardo chris: Interesting. I didn't know that
01:44 pianohacker looks similar to dokuwiki
01:44 ricardo pianohacker: Thanks for that info as well  :)
01:44 pianohacker or moinmoin, rather
01:44 ricardo Well... Almost 3 AM now and I have to wake up early for work.
01:44 ricardo I'm leaving now
01:44 chris night ricardo
01:44 ricardo chris: Thank you very much for everything!  :)
01:44 pianohacker good night, thanks for your translation work
01:45 ricardo pianohacker: You're welcome... Thanks for also testing this
01:45 * chris just got updated russian and ukranian .po files plus updated sql
01:45 pianohacker np, least i could do
01:46 ricardo @later tell hdl: Correcting the problematic section of the PO Portuguese staff file that you pointed out solved the "strange redirect problem". Thanks! :)  Chris has already pushed the updated version to git
01:46 munin` ricardo: The operation succeeded.
01:46 pianohacker chris: cool. wish I could figure out a good way to make the .pref files translateable, though
01:46 ricardo Thanks munin` ;-)
01:46 ricardo (I hope the syntax was correct)
01:46 ricardo Bye people!
01:46 pianohacker I think the colon will cause problems
01:47 ricardo pianohacker: That's what I was thinking
01:47 ricardo Take 2
01:47 ricardo @later tell hdl Correcting the problematic section of the PO Portuguese staff file that you pointed out solved the "strange redirect problem". Thanks! :)  Chris has already pushed the updated version to git
01:47 munin` ricardo: The operation succeeded.
01:47 ricardo There... just in case.
01:47 ricardo Sleep time. Take care!
01:47 ricardo left #koha
01:48 thd is now known as thd-laundry
01:49 pianohacker what would the koha project do without people with weird sleep schedules
01:51 chris heh
01:51 gmcharlt become a boring 9 to 5 job?
01:52 pianohacker bah. I can't remember the last time I did anything nine to five
01:52 gmcharlt now, did I specify 9 a.m. to 5 p.m.? ;)
01:52 pianohacker ahahaha
01:52 pianohacker there you go
02:18 gmcharlt left #koha
02:28 thd-laundry is now known as thd
02:29 thd jo: are you there?
02:35 thd Is there anyone from NZ around who can clarify an issue about NZ charitable trusts?
02:35 chris probably not
02:36 thd I will ask on the mailing list.
02:37 thd chris: what do you think of  the majority vote for foundation now?
02:37 chris it was what i feared would happen
02:38 chris democracy only works if people understand the issues
02:38 thd I presumed that was the less well informed vote about the practical problem
02:38 chris i think most people think they were voting for the final solution
02:39 chris (who voted for form a foundation now)
02:40 chris im also worried that so many think a foundation/association will be able to govern
02:40 thd chris: we need to explain the issues on the mailing list where maybe people will understand that foundation now means foundation later and not now because it would take to long to agree on things.
02:40 chris yeah
02:40 thd chris: What would the foundation have to govern?
02:40 chris i dont know, but people seem to want it to govern
02:41 chris i just want it as a place to store community property
02:41 chris people seem to think it would be able to have stopped things like the fork etc
02:41 richard i would have thought the only thing it would govern are the domain names and being the copyright holder
02:41 thd I suppose I do as well in the sense that we need some procedures for agreeing how to use community property
02:41 chris or would be able to govern the project/control direction
02:42 thd controlling the project in terms of directing development is silly
02:42 chris thd and richard, i agree wholeheartedly
02:43 chris http://www.librarytechnology.o[…]adID=126&BlogID=1 things like this
02:43 richard yeah, the direction of development is from people wanting to develop a feature stuff and getting it done - not some entity saying that this is what you should develop next
02:44 thd although I can imagine an interest in marshalling some effort at fixing neglected bugs or allowing companies to cooperate better where there are not enough discrete customers to demand something everyone really wants
02:46 chris yep as long as people realise a foundation has no control over what people do
02:46 chris trying to set one up to control the project = recipe for fail
02:47 chris one to hold property so it cant be misused = win
02:47 chris IMHO anyway
02:47 thd I think that it could do more by degrees
02:47 chris it could influence direction sure
02:48 chris if people wanted to let it
02:48 chris i fear that people think it will magically stop situations like what has occured with liblime happening
02:48 thd It could also help people share resources, exactly if people wanted to provide resources to the foundation expressly for sharing
02:48 chris yep
02:49 thd the license allows LibLime to do what it is doing with the code.
02:50 chris exactly
02:50 chris and having a foundation wouldnt change that one bit
02:51 thd no one can force cooperation from people even with a slightly different license which covers some problems.
02:51 chris yep
02:52 pianohacker you can strongly encourage cooperation, but not force it
02:52 pianohacker same with direction of dev
02:52 pianohacker elopment
02:52 chris things like this make me fearful
02:52 chris I think this article from K Schneider, Free Range Librarian, is well worth everyone's attention, especially as it brings back into the focus the need for a thriving and well structured governance layer within the Koha Foundation.
02:53 thd I have some questions which I would like to put to SFLC but I do not want to be asking merely privately.
02:53 chris[…]ource-leadership/
02:53 Jo hi all - just reading back
02:53 chris and that
02:53 thd Jo: Can you answer some question about NZ charitable trusts?
02:53 Jo sure
02:54 chris "Like a lot of software projects, Koha’s movement toward coherent self-government has lagged behind its software development and adoption, and this has left the project in a position where no one legally-recognized entity can say to Liblime, “No, you can’t do that.” Koha has a nascent user group, and has been talking about a foundation, but it hasn’t got to a place where Koha belongs to Koha, with a clearly-defined legal entity."
02:54 Jo (totally confident)
02:54 chris stuff like that, which people seem to believe is possible makes me worried
02:55 Jo This is a good resource too:[…]ritable-trust.htm
02:55 chris frankly a thriving governance layer that tries to govern the project would probably be the only reason id ever fork :-)
02:55 thd Jo: We discovered that in the US the Internal Revenue Service has a rule that assets cannot be transferred to a non-US based nonprofit.
02:55 Jo and this is relebvant:[…]s/landingpage.htm
02:55 Jo thd: ok.
02:56 Jo so can't be transferred from 1 us based charitable trust to an off shore charitable trust
02:56 thd Jo: Do you know of any similar tax rule affecting NZ charitable trusts?
02:56 Jo no - but i will investigate
02:56 Jo but regardless, they can be sold for 41
02:56 Jo sorry $1 (not 41)
02:56 Jo ie sold for a peppercorn
02:57 Jo (muses that I sold a limited liability company for $1 once)
02:58 thd Jo: I am not certain if a $1 sale would pass in the US if some US charity would be watching over the sale and worrying about what the IRS might think..
02:59 Jo make it a tenner then :)
02:59 Jo (i'm off looking now ...)
02:59 thd Jo: I think many want some place in the US and Europe to give resources
03:00 Jo so US based people who want to give stuff want a US based koha trust/org/foundation?
03:00 thd Jo: Could HLT set up some place to hold money in a US and French bank?
03:01 Jo I don't know the answer to that either. I do however have a lawyer I can all these questions of
03:01 thd Jo: Well the less which is lost through currency conversion the better.
03:02 thd Jo: If donated resources are spent in the originating currency they can pay for a little more.
03:03 thd Jo: There is also the issue of perhaps obtaining grants from US and European organisations which grant only within their own regions.
03:06 Jo sure.
03:08 Jo I think we would be a good body to hold the copyright, trademarks and domain name in trust for the community at large. Not at all sure the Trustees would be keen to get heavily involved personally in lots of big stuff.
03:08 Jo I see the Trust as an interim step
03:08 Jo a fast, immediate, pair of safe hands
03:08 chris i see that as perfect
03:08 chris ;)
03:08 Jo whci is what we need - now - immediately.
03:09 chris frankly something that gets heavily involved sounds like a recipe for a mess to me
03:09 Jo the site is a bloody joke
03:09 Jo its a liblime advertsiing site
03:09 chris yup
03:09 Jo and anyone who didn't know the history would think that liblime IS koha
03:09 chris indeed
03:10 Jo and i think HLT needs to stand up very quietly and politely, and ask for Liblime to give the community assets back to the community.
03:11 Jo if they refuse, or insist on a sale at an unreasonable price ie more than just a token price, then the Koha community needs to seriously rethink what we want to call ourselves.... coz Koha is not and can never be just 1 vendor
03:12 Jo which is the myth being perpetuated in the States and through at the moment
03:12 thd Jo: I see at as interim as well but people in the US may have an easier time helping the long term if they can give to somewhere that they can pretend is in the US even if it is really in NZ or wherever.
03:12 Jo sure.
03:13 Jo so i see 2 issues:
03:13 Jo immediate problem: reclaim koha assets for the koha community
03:13 Jo mid - long term: tease out the Koha foundation tangle and see what options are and what needs to be done
03:14 Jo 2nd one can not be rushed
03:14 thd People need to be persuaded with the reality that the second cannot or should not be rushed.
03:15 Jo yes they do.
03:15 chris yep
03:15 thd Jo: 56% of those who voted did not understand that.
03:15 Jo thatis our very real problem
03:15 thd the second highest vote was for HLT.
03:16 chris if you look at the raw data
03:16 chris the people most involved in koha voted for hlt or spi
03:16 Jo well, thats the problem with democracy :)
03:16 chris the people new to koha voted for a new foundation
03:16 chris this is the issue we face
03:17 Jo i wonder if HLT should just take the lead
03:17 chris naw, dont wanna pull a liblime
03:17 chris thats what it will forever be known as
03:17 Jo and ask for BibLibre and Liblime to please give the stuff back
03:17 Jo immediate problem solved
03:17 chris "pulling a liblime" = doing stuff without consultation
03:17 Jo I know - I get that.
03:17 thd exactly
03:18 thd Jo: HLT has trust because they have never asserted a legacy interest in promoting their own interests
03:19 Jo excatly
03:19 Jo and nor do we want to now
03:19 thd Jo: Showing leadership is one thing but be careful about how to be seen to promote that leadership.
03:20 Jo sigh ... ok ..... which brings us back to the vote whioch was clearly confusing and not understood
03:20 Jo (I'm really a bully / dictator you know ....)
03:21 chris :-)
03:21 thd I think that the biggest disadvantage to SPI and the Conservancy is that the project will not get the attention which it can get from HLT with no real investment on the part of HLT
03:21 pianohacker we want to consider the results carefully, though, to avoid charges of "well why did you have the poll if you're just going to ignore it?"
03:22 thd At least nengard thinks that the question was not explained well on the ballot
03:22 Jo yep
03:22 Jo totally agree
03:22 chris spi, conservancy, hlt are all fine with me
03:22 Jo we need wise words from the kaitiaki
03:23 chris hlt would be the preference
03:23 Jo i don't want the community to be expecting big 'action-man' response from HLT
03:23 Jo coz it won't happen
03:23 chris thats why i favour hlt
03:23 chris :)
03:23 Jo we are low key, relaxed, honest, trusting
03:23 Amit joined #koha
03:23 thd pianohacker: we obviously cannot ignore the result of the poll.  The only advantage we have is a little time before the final poll on the issue.
03:23 Amit hi chris, brendan
03:24 Jo hiya
03:24 chris yeah someone who is gonna tell me what to work on = not gonna fly
03:24 Amit good morning #koha
03:24 pianohacker thd: yes
03:24 Amit heya Jo
03:24 Jo and we absolutely do believe in the koha community is the best 'ruler' of the koha community
03:24 thd We can also be certain that the wording of the poll is reviewed by everyone before it is published.
03:25 pianohacker chris: if the foundation were to pull together resources and _hire_ a developer, that would be entirely different
03:25 Jo its almost like there is a part A and part B
03:25 Jo part A has 2 questions:
03:25 chris pianohacker: indeed :)
03:25 chris pianohacker: that would be great
03:25 Jo Q1: should HLT be asked to secure koha stuff and hold in trust for the community
03:26 Jo yes and no
03:26 Jo immediate response in other words
03:26 pianohacker (of course, this is a fully-fledged foundation and not an intermediate trust)
03:26 gmcharlt joined #koha
03:26 thd Jo: the statement in the wiki about how HLT would accommodate the project would give more autonomy to the project than any non-independent entity.
03:27 Jo Q2 Or should the community do nothing in haste and proceed with investigations to either set up a koha foundation or join something bigger
03:27 Jo then the second part of the poll comes in : ie a bunch of options.
03:28 thd Jo: I like the way you put those questions.
03:28 thd You can get any result you want if you ask in the right way.
03:29 Jo needs to be made very clear to koha community at large that the trustees would do this with a light hand ... the commun ity will still have to step forward and volunteer and nominate officeholders and coordinate development, training, conferences etc
03:29 thd The questions should be seen to be a little more neutral.
03:30 Jo (I speak a little too crisply or bluntly sometimes - especially wjhen excited :) My words can always be smoothed and softened and rephrased ;)
03:30 thd Jo: all the competing organisations let the projects run themselves but others have more rules about how to interact with the holding organisation.
03:30 chris well not IFLA
03:31 Jo My Trustees want to be clear what the communitys expectations of them are.
03:31 Jo not into overpromising and underdelivering
03:31 thd IFLA is not a holding organisation and should have been a different ballot question.
03:31 chris yeah
03:31 chris ppl voted for it though
03:32 chris librarians seem to like huge committees that talk all the time and do very little
03:32 * chris generalises grossly
03:32 thd Jo: People should not expect more than what the project contributes on its own.
03:32 gmcharlt left #koha
03:32 pianohacker *cough* frbr *cough*
03:33 thd Jo: People just need a legal entity to allow the project to do whatever it needs to do without too much trouble.
03:33 Jo Chris: agreed .. and get all over organised and bossy and nit picky and 'superior' (and yes I am a librarian)
03:33 Jo pianohacker: bad cough mate - should get that looked at :)
03:34 pianohacker Jo: yeah, yeah
03:34 Amit left #koha
03:34 Jo so, we appear to be all agreed
03:34 thd people should be thankful that HLT is there to help even a little.
03:34 Jo so how to proceed
03:36 thd Jo: People need to comment on the poll results and related matters.
03:36 Amit joined #koha
03:36 Jo hello AMit!
03:36 gmcharlt joined #koha
03:36 Jo so this discussion we have just had really needed to be on the list
03:36 Jo waves at Galen
03:37 * gmcharlt waves at Jo
03:37 thd People should express what they believe about whether the ballot question was well understood.
03:37 Jo I don't think it was clear
03:37 Jo so really good exercise to go through in that it has higghlighted the con fusion
03:37 ofish left #koha
03:38 thd The question should be asked as to whether people think that a foundation could really be set up now.
03:38 thd How many people have set up foundations and had them flourish.
03:39 Amit heya Jo
03:39 thd I have seen organisations killed on the first meeting with some poor bylaws.
03:39 Amit chris: Today Bangalore workshop started
03:39 gmcharlt whether a foundation *can* be set up I would argue is not actually something that Koha people in general can answer - it will ultimately depend on *some* people having the will and/or the institution backing to go through with it
03:41 Jo I'm going to scan and load the HLT trust deed online.
03:41 Jo sets out what we can and can'
03:41 thd gmcharlt: I am confident it was there but it took Jbrice 2 years to start KUDOS because he became too busy.
03:41 Jo cant do
03:42 thd Jo: Do you have an accountant or someone to ask about holding monetary donations in the US and France?
03:43 Jo yep.
03:43 chris Amit: cool :)
03:44 thd Actually, with only 165 votes it would be very easy to find a few more votes to swing any outcome which is my biggest concern about contentious issues.
03:44 richard left #koha
03:44 Jo heres our HLT Trust Deed:[…]/39-deed-of-trust
03:45 thd We should have more people voting if we can have informed people voting.
03:46 thd Jo: How independent is HLT of local government control?
03:47 Jo "Trust has all of the same powers as a natural person"
03:47 Jo the trustees are appointed by the District Council
03:47 Jo we have a management agreement which sets out agreed performance measures
03:48 Jo are audited by Audit NZ (central Govt auditors)
03:48 Jo get 85% funding from local council rest from fees and charges and grants and donations
03:49 Jo so, basically if it got really shitty council could theoretically starve us of funding, or appoint crappy trustees.
03:49 Jo but it has never happened.
03:50 Jo clause 20 of the deed looks interesting: Power to Create Classes of members
03:51 Jo and the schedule
03:51 Jo we can invrest in NZ or overseas
03:52 Jo schdule 20s: delegate to committee
03:53 Jo "Bank accounts: open an account at any bank" schedule k
03:53 Jo schedules for delegate to committee
03:53 Jo that was what i envisaged for the Koha group : a sub committee of the Trust
03:54 Jo so yes to bank account in France or USA (we have a paypall account in the states :)
03:55 Jo schedule t: (I love this one) Do such other acts and things as the Trustees wants   ...
04:03 pianohacker off to vpn land, cya all tomorrow
04:03 thd Jo: Wow, you seem to have much more discretion than any US non-profit would have.
04:03 pianohacker left #koha
04:04 thd Jo: In the US non-profits cannot do things outside far to many rules.
04:04 chris thd: yes charitable trusts are set up for that reason
04:05 thd chirs: Does that mean that there are much more restrictive non-profits in NZ like those in the US?
04:05 chris yep incorporated societies
04:06 chris[…]porated-societies
04:07 chris bascially you have to set up a bunch of rules ... and stick to them
04:07 thd Jo: People would probably want a legal guarantee as a formality ensuring that assets would be used as directed by the Koha community.
04:08 chris ok, gotta go catch my bus
04:10 Jo sure.
04:11 Jo The powers seem pretty wide but uit is heavily monitored and scritinised
04:11 Madar joined #koha
04:12 Jo full team of auditors here every year auditing everything, not only money, by goals, plans, strategies etc and how and why we did everything.
04:12 thd Jo: slef will want a really solid guarantee.
04:12 Jo thats all by agreement :)
04:13 thd Jo: It is not the accounting which would be at issue it is the use of any assets.
04:13 Madar G.morning
04:13 Jo sure - and once we agree on something we have to do it
04:13 Jo its about transparency and accountability
04:13 Jo and thats what the auditors check - not just money
04:14 Jo ok - have to go - pilates class.
04:14 Jo talk tomorrow :)
04:14 thd Jo: have fun stretching
04:14 Jo cya
04:14 Jo left #koha
04:14 thd good morning Madar
04:23 richard joined #koha
04:25 Madar i 've a question about Koha Error
04:26 Madar when i finished add record
04:28 Madar thi caNT SAVE IT
04:28 anasha joined #koha
04:57 Madar this the Error    - <thd>
04:57 Madar Koha error  The following fatal error has occurred:  Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/ line 1542 Apache Server version: Apache/2.2.8 (Ubuntu) Server built: Jun 11 2009 18:39:41 Koha Koha DB 3.0000107 MySQL mysql Ver 14.12 Distrib 5.0.51a, for debian-linux-gnu (i486) using readline 5.2 OS Linux 2.6.24-23-generic #1 SMP Wed Apr 1 21:47:28 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/Linux Perl 5.008008
05:04 thd Madar: What error do you see displayed in the staff client record editor?
05:06 thd Madar: Is it via using the record editor where you have this bug?
05:32 Madar Koha error  The following fatal error has occurred:  Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/ line 1542 Apache Server version:
05:43 Ropuch Morning, #koha
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05:56 richard hi Ropuch
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06:17 kf morning :)
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07:00 hdl_away is now known as hdl
07:01 chris hi all
07:02 hdl hi chris
07:10 hdl About translations,
07:11 hdl sql and some js should get into po.
07:11 hdl do you have a suggestion for that ?
07:13 kf hi chris and hdl
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07:15 chris nope
07:15 chris just have to write another copy of
07:15 chris that understands .js
07:15 chris and one for sql as well
07:16 Madar <thd> Is it via using the record editor where you have this bug?
07:16 Madar nope
07:16 Ropuch I have a book added with book framework with itemtype book, yet i typed 1 in #  Volume/Copy for serials (
07:17 Ropuch I did it by mistake, but then the book was shown line an serial in opac
07:17 Madar it is after finished tha save record from Home › Cataloguing › Add MARC Record
07:17 Ropuch Shoud it be that  way? I was sure it depends on itemtype
07:17 hdl chris :(((((
07:17 Ropuch Hello chris, Madar
07:18 Ropuch and hdl :)
07:18 hdl i'd rather use gettext from bare command-line ;)
07:18 chris :)
07:18 chris well make one that does that
07:18 chris just a .sh script
07:18 chris might be the win
07:19 Madar hi       Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/ line 1542
07:19 Madar Hi all,          I have an error while while adding a book in the koha.i am getting the error like:        Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/ line 2462
07:19 chris hdl: actually yeah a shell script that calls gettext would probably work fine ;)
07:20 chris i might try that this weekend if i get some time
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07:35 CGI944 hi there anybody can help me
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07:38 CGI944 the error what am getting when am adding a book is "Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/ line 1542"
07:38 CGI944 what can i do to solve this problem?
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07:46 Ropuch Hello paul_p
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07:55 hdl CGI944: I think this comes out of a problem in your Biblio framework.
07:55 hdl have you checked that ?
07:55 hdl (in administration=
07:59 Madar Biblio framework ??? how ??
08:04 hdl in Administration/ you have a link to check your framework
08:19 Madar يهي ع ةثشى : MARC Bibliographic framework
08:19 Madar did u mean MARC Bibliographic framework
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08:57 hdl yes
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09:21 Topic for #koha is now General IRC Meeting took place 7 October 2009, 1000 UTC (date -d @1254909600), here in #koha -[…]etingnotes09oct07
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09:33 ricardo Good morning paul_p !
09:37 Madar sry but am still i dnt know what i have 2 do in  MARC Bibliographic framework ???
09:50 hdl Madar :
09:51 hdl have you checked you frameworks ?
09:52 hdl cgi-bin/koha/admin/
09:52 hdl and look at the results
09:56 Ropuch I've just send my chief link to prototype of our opac, it would be his first contact with live Koha
09:57 Ropuch I hoping for the best as i want him to share some  bandwitch and server space for polsih Koha site ;>
09:57 Ropuch s/polsich/polisch
10:09 magnusenger Having some value_builder problems... Trying to create a, but when I select it for the 008 field, it doesn't "stick". Neither does Then I set it to "by hand" in MySQL, but when I click on "..." next to 008, up pops Any ideas?
10:11 hdl have you reloaded your page ?
10:15 magnusenger hdl: yes, and the marc_subfield_structure.value_builder wasn't set to enything before I set it to
10:15 hdl which page ? ?
10:17 magnusenger hdl: yes
10:21 magnusenger sorry, found it, There's some JavaScript in * which tells which value_builder to use.
10:22 magnusenger So my was telling to open
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11:01 slef Afternoon all.  Why is the default search order often surname,firstname instead of cardnumber?
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11:29 hdl hi
11:30 gmcharlt slef: not sure why - do you have enough overlap between patron card numbers and names that it makes a difference?
11:32 hdl slef:  in little libraries, name and surnames are more often searched on
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11:38 Madar <hdl> yesss i was checked
11:39 Madar i see the results
11:40 Madar did u mean i must edit some of it ? and how ?
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11:44 slef gmcharlt: no.  I'm having poor performance on some searches and have traced it back to sorting by names being a filesort, while sorting by cardnumber has an index.
11:44 slef hdl: Not the search itself, but the order.
11:45 gmcharlt slef: do we need to just add indexes on the surname and firstname columns, then?
11:46 slef gmcharlt: can't index text fields on a MyISAM table.
11:46 slef (IIRC)
11:47 gmcharlt what about an InnoDB table? ;)
11:47 slef I think that can do fulltext indexing, yes, but why are we using MyISAM?
11:47 gmcharlt the point I'm trying to make is that we're not using MyISAM
11:47 slef ok, I'll recheck my notes
11:48 gmcharlt but if InnoDB doesn't do indexes on text columns either, we could change the name columns to varchar
11:49 slef "FULLTEXT indexes are supported only for MyISAM tables"
11:49 slef ok, I'm backwards
11:49 slef changing them to varchar() would also allow indexing
11:49 slef but why are they mediumtext and text?
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11:50 gmcharlt probably for the same reason many, many columns are mediumtext and text - it was easier at the time to go with a data type that didn't require you to guess a maximum length
11:53 chris_n2 is now known as chris_n
11:53 slef so are users going to be bitten if we introduce a maximum length?
11:53 chris_n g'morning
11:53 chris_n slef: see my comment on bug 3583
11:53 munin` Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=3583 blocker, P5, ---,, ASSIGNED, Patron Card Labels should print
11:53 slef chris_n: hi. No, I haven't yet.
11:54 chris_n slef: this week has been a schedule killer so it will be sometime next week before I get back on the pcard stuff
11:55 slef chris_n: ok.  Thanks for the comment.  I had forgotten that there was a batch-former option on the marc import.
11:56 chris_n slef: there are a number of "bells and whistles" enhancements that can be added based on the new label and pcard code
11:57 chris_n the one you suggest is a good idea and shouldn't take much time
11:57 slef chris_n: probably. I should go play with it more, but I'm trying to catch up with user requests just now, so am trying to make sure we're feeding to where appropriate.
11:57 slef lunchtime here.  bbi30ish
11:59 chris_n gmcharlt: that win32 port of Koha is looking like it may be doable in the next 12 months or so
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12:00 * chris_n did not realize the stimulating effect he has on some people ;-)
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12:02 jwagner chris_n, it's far too early in the morning for stimulation....
12:02 chris_n @later tell gmcharlt that win32 port of Koha is looking like it may be doable in the next 12 months or so
12:02 munin` chris_n: The operation succeeded.
12:03 chris_n jwagner: probably a heavy dose of coffee would help :-)
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12:07 jwagner But I don't drink coffee :-(  However, my tea should be brewed by now.  Let me go retrieve it....
12:08 chris_n jwagner: tea should do just as well.... I like either... and the more variety the better
12:12 jwagner A friend of mine owns a button, which comes in very handy at groggy moments.  It reads Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.
12:13 jwagner Can't get much more succinct than that.
12:23 chris_n lol... Earl Grey is probably at the top of my list
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12:36 gmcharlt chris_n: cool (re win32 port) - tell me more
12:38 chris_n gmcharlt: as you can see here[…]lay.html?id=48576 it is hoped that XML::LibXML will be part of the next Strawberry release
12:39 chris_n I was able to get it installed under the beta_2 release of strawberry
12:40 chris_n I'm currently working to get the rest of the perl deps installed under strawberry beta to see if Koha will run
12:40 gmcharlt chris_n++
12:40 chris_n of course this is a very back-burner project
12:40 chris_n gmcharlt: I assume this might be of interest to the EG project as well?
12:45 magnusenger i'm almost certain i have seen a value_builder-script where at first you see only one or two fields, then when you make a choice the other, relevant fields appear, but i can't seem to find it now... sound familiar to anyone?
12:46 chris_n gmcharlt: the chances of XML::LibXSLT being in the the October release of Strawberry have just been greatly boosted by the release of XML::LibXSLT 1.70 yesterday.... this is very nice
12:48 gmcharlt chris_n: probably would be - I don't know if anybody's pursued porting EG server to Windows, but XML::LibXML and XML::LibXSLT would be prereqs, sure
12:52 chris_n bbl
13:09 thd gmcharlt: do you see the problem which I have identified for the relicensing ballot?
13:09 slef thd: what problem?
13:10 thd slef: There is no proper question on the ballot
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13:10 thd See my message to the koha list
13:10 slef thd: even after the rewording I mentioned in the meeting?
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13:10 slef ok, looking at koha list
13:13 owen Hi pianohacker, you're in early
13:13 pianohacker good morning
13:13 pianohacker yup, thought I'd try getting up before 10:00 once this week
13:14 * owen can't imagine why
13:17 pianohacker bbl
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13:18 owen Hmmm.... Did I get him thinking about going back to bed?
13:20 thd slef: whatever the question should be that people are asked to ascent to should appear at the top of the ballot page for people to agree or not.
13:24 thd slef: the way in which GPL is mentioned could mean GPL 1 which no one would really understand but in a ballot about relicensing more precision should be given than in more casual use.
13:24 slef thd: I am very cross with you.
13:24 thd why
13:24 thd ?
13:25 gmcharlt thd: licensing of the wiki and the Koha software itself are different matters
13:25 slef This was covered in the meeting.  You were here.
13:26 thd gmcharlt: yes, I understand that they are different.
13:26 thd I also understood that there was an attempt to make them compatible
13:26 thd maybe I missed something at some point during the meeting
13:27 thd All I am asking is that the ballot question be precise.
13:28 thd I know that my message is long but it has a simple conclusion that the ballot question simply needs wording about how the relicensing is to be invoked.
13:28 slef Do you want the relicensing ballot postponed?
13:28 thd No
13:28 thd I did not want to imply that
13:29 gmcharlt thd: thanks for saying that - otherwise, frankly I would consider your email to be a purely dilatory move
13:29 kf owen: thx for solving 3676 :)
13:29 gmcharlt can we agree that the question will specify a GPL version, e.g., GPL v2 or later?
13:30 thd gmcharlt: I was really only trying to be helpful with very little time because I had thought the issue deferred until the meeting.
13:30 thd I had asked chris about it last week and he suggested that the issue had been deferred
13:30 thd Of course I asked the wrong person.
13:31 thd Ignore my call for lawyers to look at the issue.  They are unlikely to give an answer really helpful to the community and I will write another message to say so.
13:33 thd gmcharlt: Yes if the question is relicense under GPL 2 or later and that appears at the top of the ballot page then I think that the question has been properly asked.
13:35 thd gmcharlt slef: I would be doubtful of enough response in the small ballot window if an email message is not sent to each of the people on the list of names as well.
13:36 gmcharlt thd: which, oddly enough, is why slef and I doing exactly that during the meeting yesterday
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13:36 gmcharlt please pay more attention before assuming that we didn't take that into account
13:38 thd gmcharlt: I am sorry but I did loose attention at a certain point and was surprised that the issue was being reintroduced at this particular moment.
13:38 thd I am all for it if that is not clear
13:38 thd I just want to be certain that it is done well.
13:38 slef This has been bumped in the last few general meetings.  It shouldn't be a surprise.
13:39 thd I may have missed something from the context earlier.
13:40 thd I kept looking at the wiki relicensing page and seeing vote to be held in May.
13:45 slef it probably should have been updated sooner and linked from meetings pages when it was bumped, but[…]ch&id=relicensing does show it.
13:50 thd gmcharlt slef: looking at kohatoday I missed nothing but the issue was rushed by so quickly I had no idea what was happening..
13:50 slef thd: what is kohatoday?
13:50 thd The current IRC logs
13:50 thd Is logbot working again?
13:51 slef NAFAIK
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13:51 thd
13:52 thd I am sorry that I did not have time in May to properly address the issue and am happy for any reasonable resolution of it.
13:53 thd I realise that my long message may cause confusion so I will fix that now.
13:54 thd slef: If you know or know where to check I am quite curious about what advise the Debian project had from lawyers about using the GPL as a documentation license.
13:54 slef Not OTTOMH
13:54 slef but we've been using it for a decade or so
13:55 slef and we're not broken yet
13:55 slef the move to the GPL was inspired by problems with the OPL IIRC but it's before my time
13:55 thd I know there is much that goes by because people basically want it to work
13:55 slef I doubt it changed without a few detailed discussions
13:56 slef may know
13:56 thd I just remember it being a huge controversy recently in the context of GFDL.
13:57 slef it predates FDL. FSF asked debian contributor opinions on FDL, then seemed to ignore nearly all of them.
13:57 thd I do consider GFDL to be a big problem and I say so in my message to the list that GPL is the only real option
13:58 slef getting debian contributors to do work and then essentially rejecting it is a pretty easy way to cause a huge controversy
13:58 thd Bradley Kuhn said that developers were consulted quite poorly about GFDL
13:58 slef yeah, I've read similar messages from him
13:59 thd Consulting developers a little and publishers much more is what I think that he meant.
14:01 thd slef: If the current comment process existed which SFLC helped design I think that the issue would have been addressed from the beginning.
14:01 slef By the current comment process, do you mean stet?
14:02 thd Well it is not perfect but yes
14:02 thd It is much better than the absence of it.
14:02 slef If so, it's a buggy mess and there are tons of unanswered comments in it.
14:02 thd Mostly unanswered comments yes.
14:03 slef The problem is with the process QA and the accountability, not the technicalities.
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14:03 thd However, every comment is read at SFLC.
14:03 thd Eben Moglen personally reads each comment.
14:04 thd as do others.
14:04 thd Unfortunately they do not have enough people to respond to everyone.
14:06 thd I managed to help influence the wording of GPL 3 so I know that it works.  The wording change took my statement almost exactly when I was not attempting to specify wording.
14:08 thd slef: I am very sorry for missing the bumping.  Bumping is easy to miss.  I will try to fix any confusion which I may have caused with my message now.
14:09 thd I did at least see everything in yesterdays meeting
14:09 thd ing
14:09 thd ing
14:09 thd ing
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14:09 pianohacker ?
14:09 thd ing
14:10 thd oops
14:11 * thd have been having keyboard trouble for months
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14:11 thd I have read something that suggests it may be a kernel bug.
14:12 thd Replacing the keyboard does no good
14:13 wizzyrea is it wireless?
14:13 wizzyrea because my wireless one does similar stupid things sometimes
14:14 wizzyrea (and I use a Mac)
14:14 thd no, I never want a wireless keyboard.
14:15 thd It is not USB which could now be part of the problem in some recent Linux kernels
14:19 thd slef: The license choice in the Wiki is a DokuWiki default.  The previous wiki had no license statement.  I doubt anyone ever decided anything in examining DokWiki configuration.
14:23 slef on customer call
14:33 slef back
14:34 slef thd: is "Yes, I am in favor of changing the wiki page license to the GPLv2+ terms used by the main Koha download" clear enough?
14:35 thd I prefer "or later version" to "+" for clarity.
14:35 thd I know what you mean but others may find it too subtle.
14:35 slef just "or later" and expand the "v" to "version"?
14:36 owen gmcharlt around?
14:36 gmcharlt owen: yes
14:37 owen Is there a patch floating around for sounds-on-checkout?
14:37 thd slf: yes
14:37 gmcharlt there's something in Michael Hafen's tree, I think
14:37 thd slef: yes, the way you last put it seems fine
14:37 gmcharlt as I recall, main issue is making sure that sounds are not tied to requiring Flash, but it's been a while
14:39 slef updated
14:41 thd slef: I would use the word 'software' instead of "download" for clarity but there is no point of confusion anymore.
14:41 * owen sees Flash-based audio stuff in mhafen's tree
14:42 * owen wonders if HTML5 has improved our options
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14:43 gmcharlt owen: I believe so, in theory
14:47 tomascohen hi everyone, just wanted to say I'm happy i managed to bypass the firewall to be with you
14:47 tomascohen :-D
14:48 owen Hi tomascohen
14:48 hdl hi tomascohen
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14:58 kf hi tomascohen
14:59 davi
15:03 * owen is looking for some nice open-source-licensed beeps
15:06 ricardo @quote add <tomascohen> hi everyone, just wanted to say I'm happy i managed to bypass the firewall to be with you  *** tomascohen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
15:06 munin` ricardo: The operation succeeded.  Quote #40 added.
15:06 ricardo Sorry, couldn't resist  ;-)
15:07 tomascohen ricardo++
15:07 ricardo Hi tomascohen :)
15:08 slef thd: reply emailed to list
15:09 thd slef: I was about to send a correcting message
15:10 * jdavidb pinches his daughter, and records the eeps and squeaks she makes, sticks a CC license on 'em, and sends them to owen.
15:10 owen jdavidb: Can she make a noise that expresses the idea "Your checkout has failed?"
15:11 jdavidb I bet she could, owen.    Teens are good at expressing their opinion of adults' failure.
15:11 owen it would be funny if you could load different personalities for your audio feedback
15:12 * owen is really just looking for a couple of good beeps
15:12 jdavidb Like my GPS, which speaks NZ English, since the USian voices in it are *boring.*
15:12 hdl a sound like ouch ;)
15:13 pianohacker owen: I used the ubuntu sound set for a similar project
15:14 owen pianohacker: I was just thinking there must be such a thing
15:14 pianohacker it was internal, so I didn't check the license, but I'd imagine they're open source
15:15 pianohacker I'd go for a major and minor arpeggio chord, but that may not be the personality you have in mind
15:18 owen pianohacker: Any idea if there is a way to browse those sounds on the web?
15:20 pianohacker owen: looking through right now
15:20 pianohacker there's this, looking for normal one[…]theme-freedesktop
15:21 pianohacker
15:21 pianohacker both have .tar.gz's that you can look through
15:22 owen Thanks
15:23 owen FWIW, Firefox 3.5 and Safari 4 both autoplay wav files using the HTML5 <audio> tag
15:26 * owen would feel a certain satisfaction telling people they'd need to ditch Internet Explorer if they wanted audio feedback in Koha
15:27 pianohacker bug 42 - koha only works on standards-compliant browsers
15:27 munin` Bug[…]how_bug.cgi?id=42 normal, P2, ---,, RESOLVED FIXED, could prompt user to send testing results in
15:27 pianohacker hah, thanks, munin
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15:28 * jdavidb enjoys telling people they need to ditch IE for any reason whatever.
15:29 owen "IE causes scurvy!"
15:31 Ropuch ;>
15:31 Ropuch Shame on you to speak in public such obscene word like "IE"!
15:32 pianohacker owen: I was able to get results (if not consistent ones) using embed, no autoplay, and the exposed js methods of the embed tag
15:32 * owen likes the potential simplicity of using <audio src="beep.mp3" autoplay="true">
15:33 pianohacker that is nice. if you're using ajax, no autoplay allows load-once and play-many
15:33 pianohacker not an issue with circulation, though
15:33 * pianohacker pokes gmcharlt
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15:41 gmcharlt pianohacker: good enough - somebody can add IE support later if they want (though preferably *not* be having Koha need to start check user agent strings, which hasn't been necessary thus far)
15:42 pianohacker gmcharlt: most likely a note on the off
15:42 pianohacker -by-default syspref that sound alerts don't work in ie would be enough
15:43 gmcharlt sadly, there are enough users stuck with IE for the staff interface that *somebody* will have to deal with it at some point
15:43 pianohacker right
15:44 pianohacker though a lot of the stuck on ie people have ie 6
15:44 pianohacker which as far as I know, won't even be seen in the same room as koha's staff interface
15:45 gmcharlt actually, I think some people are (painfully) actively using IE6 with the Koha staff interface
15:45 pianohacker the modern martyrs of the library world
15:46 gmcharlt s/library world/world of anybody stuck with a hidebound or overly paranoid IT department/
15:46 pianohacker lots of those to go around
15:47 pianohacker daily wtf needs a permanent entry on _that_ particular policy
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15:48 owen_ pianohacker: Actually aside from some visual quirks IE6 manages with the staff client quite well in my limited experience.
15:49 pianohacker for which you are partly to blame :)
15:53 owen_ I have wondered if we should be including support for Google's Chrome Frame
15:54 pianohacker I myself am not too familiar with it, but have you taken a look at the mozilla community's response to it?
15:54 pianohacker saw something about it on webmonkey not too long ago
15:55 owen_ pianohacker: Only a cursory look
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15:55 owen_ I did hear one comment that Mozilla folks would be opposed to it because it give IE users another reason not to switch
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15:56 owen_ is now known as owen
15:56 * pianohacker wonders if same it paranoia that has locked users into ie would allow something like chrome-frame in
15:56 pianohacker *if the same
15:56 owen That's my question too.
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15:58 owen It's also worth noting that Chrome Frame doesn't help those who are stuck with IE6 because they're stuck on Win98 or Win2K: no Chrome support in those OSes
15:59 pianohacker right
15:59 * owen wonders if it's IE6 or Chrome Frame crashing at the moment
15:59 pianohacker seriously? that's irony in motion right there
16:03 jwagner Fines question for folks -- is there a list somewhere of what the various accountype codes in the accountlines table mean?  Like F, FU, A, etc.?  I found this page on the wiki, but it only lists the hardcoded codes, not what they mean:[…]ment:hard_coded&s[]=accounttype
16:05 pianohacker jwagner: not really, unfortunately. best way is to go to those places in the code that create the fines
16:05 jwagner Darn.  Why isn't there ever an EASY answer with Koha?
16:05 pianohacker sorry
16:06 pianohacker fines especially :)
16:07 jwagner *grumble* Do I feel like stalking code right now, or going to lunch instead?  Somehow, I think lunch may win that argument.....
16:07 pianohacker bah, who needs food when you have code
16:12 kf for f and fu nicole wrote something on
16:13 kf I think f is the first fine and fu accrued or something like that
16:13 kf[…]searchterm=f%20fu
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16:16 jwagner kf, thanks.  I'll track it down after I get done resolving the current crisis/panic attack.  Sigh.
16:18 * kf hands jwagner a cup of earl grey tea
16:25 jwagner Nope, I've already had my two cups for the day.  But thanks :-)
16:25 owen jwagner: What do you do after you've used up your allotted 2? Nap?
16:27 jwagner owen, depends on if I'm working from home :-)
16:27 * owen usually needs the caffeine infusion after lunch rather than in the morning
16:29 jwagner Well, I work an early schedule -- usually in the office by 7:30 which means getting up at a perfectly horrible time.  Just because I've made it into the office does NOT mean I'm awake!  You've heard of sleepdriving?
16:29 owen So, labels_recon and biblibre-sopac have been integrated into HEAD, but we're still waiting on sysprefs_editor and biblibre's acquisitions stuff?
16:31 pianohacker owen: yes on sysprefs
16:31 pianohacker finally working on koha again after a school crunch
16:31 pianohacker to that will happen
16:31 pianohacker *so
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16:34 jwagner owen, re your message to the list yesterday about OPAC detail page sorting by itemtype, changing to branch -- couple of questions.  One is are you doing a patch, and the other is would it also fix the problem in the staff interface?
16:34 owen jwagner: I'd be happy to work on a patch, but so far the conversation is between only you and me! I'd love to hear someone else put in their vote
16:35 jwagner You mean I can't vote 57 times?
16:35 owen I hadn't planned on adding holdings table sorting to the staff client for the reason I stated yesterday: I'm concerned about performance for libraries with lots of items
16:36 owen jwagner: You'll have to at least use different voices. How's your Cookie Monster?
16:36 jwagner Cooooooookkkkkkkkkeeeeeeeee
16:36 kf I think sorting by serial enum could be interesting too
16:37 jwagner I'm trying to check, but I looked it up a week or two ago, and I think it already does sort by serial enum.  Question of whether we could add branchcode in there too, I guess.
16:38 kf perhaps im just confused :) are we talking about default sorting or possible to sort?
16:38 owen default sorting
16:39 jwagner Sorry, not on serial enum. If I have the right place, it's accessiondate -- ORDER BY items.dateaccessioned
16:39 kf ok, just checked - its not sorted by serial enum
16:39 kf found a title where all other columns are the same
16:44 jwagner is now known as jwagner_lunch
16:44 kf and I will leave work now (to test some things on my laptop at home... *sigh*) bbl, bye #koha
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16:52 owen If I want to test biblibre-integration, how should I update my database?
16:55 owen "then run through the database update (in the case of labels_recon) or run the atomic update scripts (in case of biblibre-integration)"
16:55 owen atomic update scripts?
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17:02 thd slef: I have appended my response to you to my previously written correction for confusion.
17:03 Colin left #koha
17:04 thd slef: I agree with you on every significant point except one which is unimportant, given the lack of alternatives.
17:07 ColinC is now known as Colin
17:11 thd gmcharlt: are you there for a moment?
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17:12 jwagner_lunch is now known as jwagner
17:12 gmcharlt thd: what's up?
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17:13 thd gmcharlt: I hope that my new message has corrected any confusion caused by my previous message.
17:14 thd gmcharlt: I am curious about why the election window is so small.
17:16 gmcharlt not sure, slef picked it, but there's no sure formula for picking a length
17:16 thd gmcharlt: Does 9-11 October not risk having low turnout and defeating the effort.
17:16 gmcharlt regardless, if it turns out we get insufficient turnout, we can hold another vote or extend the voting period
17:16 thd I trust in slef's good judgement.
17:17 gmcharlt since the electorate is fixed, there's not a question of any risk of electorate padding
17:17 thd gmcharlt: Yes we can always extend the vote without being unfair.
17:17 CGI333 joined #koha
17:17 thd Thanks gmcharlt
17:18 CGI333 hi i need to ask something about audit trails in koha
17:18 gmcharlt CGI333: go for it
17:18 CGI333 Audit trail
17:18 CGI333 The system should contain an audit trail that records the movement of files throughout the departments. It should allow the administrator to view who processed a specific file on a specific date. This audit trail should record the details of the movement (action, person, file reference code) and the operator details (username, date, time).
17:18 CGI333 is this supported in KOHA
17:21 CGI333 ?
17:23 gmcharlt CGI333: by file you mean digital resource file (image, movie, sound recording, etc?)
17:23 rhcl_busy Maybe I'm out of the loop, but what do you mean by "movement of files thoughout the departments", in regards to an ILS?
17:23 CGI333 by files I ment books
17:23 thd CG1333: Or do you mean printed files
17:24 thd CG1333: there is a circulation module.
17:24 CGI333 sorry but i took this from a clients request and they call books as files
17:24 CGI333 just books
17:25 gmcharlt Koha's circ system woudl provide a sufficient audit trail of circulation, IMO, but it sounds like from your wording that they may be talking about auditing internal processing of books
17:26 CGI333 basically they want sort of a report that shows the history of a book between a certain date (say last year)
17:26 CGI333 who loaned it, when did he loan it, etc
17:28 thd CG1333: You should be able to query for the circulation history by an identifier for the book.
17:29 thd CG1333: You may have to write a special SQL query or Perl script for that but it should not be difficult.
17:29 CGI333 oh ok that was what i was looking to confirm
17:30 CGI333 i knew it could but i wanted to confirm if it was implemented or it had to be done via a script
17:30 CGI333 thanks for your help
17:31 thd CG1333: It is probably not implemented in quite the way you ask.
17:31 thd CG1333: You have to be certain not to set the option for erasing the history.
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17:44 chris morning
17:44 chris owen++
17:47 brendan joined #koha
17:48 ricardo Morning chris
17:50 ricardo chris: I'll probably have a new version of translation in the next few days... I have to solve an (apparent) merge conflict in Subversion. Let's see how that works
17:50 ricardo (Portuguese translation, I mean)
17:52 chris cool
17:56 hdl pianohacker: around ?
17:56 ricardo chris / hdl : Could you tell me in
17:56 brendan morning chris, ricardo hdl et. al
17:56 hdl hi all
17:57 hdl yes i can : "in"
17:57 hdl (silly joke)
17:57 ricardo hdl: LOL... Funny. I'm having problems rearranging the "Mibbit" and "" in Firefox  :)  (too many tabs...)
17:58 ricardo OK. Done...
17:58 ricardo Take 2
17:58 ricardo chris / hdl : Could you tell me in
17:58 ricardo[…]5d35e6e46bda9a22a
17:59 ricardo ... if lines 1842 to 1849 are translatable? Just by looking at them, I'm suspecting they're NOT (but I might be wrong)
18:00 hdl ricardo : you should not translate that.
18:00 hdl those are codes ;)
18:01 hdl pianohacker: i'll test your sys pref branch.
18:01 ricardo hdl: Right... That's what I thought. So, should I just leave the msgstr "blank", meaning with:   msgstr ""   ?
18:02 hdl yes
18:02 hdl pianohacker: How have you solved translation context ?
18:02 ricardo hdl: OK. In that case, it assumes the original "words" (from "msgid"), right?
18:03 hdl yes
18:03 hdl or you can just copy paste the string
18:03 ricardo hdl: OK. Thanks
18:04 owen-away is now known as owen
18:04 owen hdl: can you tell me what I need to do to update my database to test biblibre_integration?
18:05 hdl owen : + all the "atomicupdate"  scripts in installer/data/mysql/atomicupdate
18:05 pianohacker hdl: I have not yet. just getting back to work on that
18:06 owen hdl: if I am not prompted to update the database via the installer, does that mean all I need are the atomicupdate scripts?
18:06 hdl I think so.
18:07 hdl db version should be 115
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18:36 chris gah, 2 sick kids, 'working' from home today
18:37 wizzyrea booo
18:37 gmcharlt :(
18:38 wizzyrea are yours like mine, when they get sick all they want to do is lay on you
18:38 wizzyrea which can actually work out, if you have a laptop :P
18:39 gmcharlt depends if the kids are like my cats
18:40 gmcharlt if they are, better hope they're transparent so that you can see the screen ;)
18:40 chris hehe
18:40 chris yeah trying to get as close as possible
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18:43 pianohacker enjoy it now, we become pains in the butt when we reach teenagerhood
18:43 pianohacker chris: sorry to hear they're sick, tho
18:44 cait_laptop good evening
18:44 ricardo chris: echoing pianohacker, I hope your kids get well really soon
18:44 ricardo Going home now. See you later!
18:44 pianohacker see ya
18:45 ricardo left #koha
18:49 owen Anyone know of an example of the type of image referred to in Bug 2069?
18:49 munin` Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2069 enhancement, P3, ---,, NEW, Label Example Image
18:53 wizzyrea huj
18:53 wizzyrea hrm
18:58 chris heh
18:58 owen hunh?
19:00 pianohacker resembles something from a word processing program
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19:01 pianohacker you could have a static image showing what each dimension was (simple diagram)
19:01 wizzyrea sec, looking in word for something like it
19:01 pianohacker or, even better, start with that diagram and update proportions as the user entered dimensions, with <canvas>
19:01 cait_laptop chris: problem: subject in emails and subjects in cataloging are different translation in German, but only on string in po - is there a way to split it?
19:02 chris not easily
19:02 cait_laptop chris: just an example, its a problem in differnt places
19:02 wizzyrea
19:02 wizzyrea presumably this would change if you told it different label size
19:03 cait_laptop cancel is another example - most of the time its abbrechen, but sometimes it should be stornieren
19:03 owen pianohacker: Thanks I'll get right on that :|
19:04 pianohacker owen: I'm just fantasizing. really, a static diagram of a label sheet with some labeled dimensions would be helpful for the bug
19:05 cait_laptop chris: hm. no easily is not good, will try to work around it as best as possible.
19:06 wizzyrea
19:06 wizzyrea actually never mind
19:06 wizzyrea that's probably not it at all
19:08 hdl pianohacker: I can see 3 branches prefs prefs-compact prefs-submit ?
19:08 hdl which one is test-able ?
19:09 pianohacker hdl: compact is a temporary branch, prefs is original work, and prefs-submit is the code as submitted to
19:10 pianohacker sysprefs_editor on is best for testing
19:10 pianohacker I'll push further changes to it from prefs_submit
19:11 hdl ok thanks.
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19:49 richard hi
19:49 pianohacker hello richard
19:49 richard hiya pianohacker
19:50 hdl good night
19:50 hdl thx pianohacker
19:51 pianohacker see ya hdl
19:51 chris night hdl
19:57 pastebot "pianohacker" at pasted "Possible easy solution to new syspref data file translation (YAML)" (27 lines) at
19:57 pianohacker any thoughts from devs?
19:58 gmcharlt pianohacker: what do you mean my storing preferences in a cookie?  preference values?
19:59 pianohacker gmcharlt: that's cruft from pastebot
19:59 pianohacker everything from "plain text..." down is not part of the paste
20:00 gmcharlt ah, ok
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20:00 gmcharlt at first glance, your proposal seems workable
20:00 pianohacker overuse_of_monospace--
20:01 pianohacker got idea from[…]ct/Plugin/
20:04 pianohacker chris: any thoughts as one of the reluctant translation helpers?
20:09 chris reading now
20:10 Jo joined #koha
20:11 chris looks like it'll work
20:11 chris thats how we would have to do the js too from what i can tell
20:11 chris if we dont want to try and implement something mad like
20:12 Jo morning all
20:12 cait_laptop good morning
20:13 chris pianohacker: i like it
20:15 chris_n owen about?
20:15 owen For another few minutes
20:15 chris_n re bug 2069... I might have an image you can use for that
20:15 munin` Bug[…]w_bug.cgi?id=2069 enhancement, P3, ---,, NEW, Label Example Image
20:16 chris_n if you are interested I'll shoot it your way later this evening or tomorrow morning
20:17 owen Sure, I'd like to see it. I've been working something, but it's off the top of my head
20:17 gmcharlt left #koha
20:18 chris_n @later tell gmcharlt to give his computer stronger coffee to drink so it will stay awake longer ;-)
20:18 munin` chris_n: The operation succeeded.
20:18 chris pianohacker: and the display code strips the _ out before handing it to the browser eh?
20:19 owen left #koha
20:20 pianohacker chris: actually, I was thinking of making a generic module for handling YAML like this
20:21 chris that works even better then
20:21 pianohacker at least handling YAML::Syck's quirks and _ stripping
20:21 chris yep
20:21 pianohacker that way, wouldn't notice the difference
20:21 chris *nod*
20:22 chris and using
20:22 chris that would be easily translatable
20:22 pianohacker yup.
20:23 chris i think for the js, we ahve 2 options
20:23 chris declare all the strings as variables
20:23 davi left #koha
20:23 pianohacker (I've been putting of the task of making misc/translator/ understand the quirky .pref format for a while now, so this is better)
20:24 chris then write code to generate .po from that
20:24 chris or have a base one, with _ leading translatable strings
20:24 chris and have a process to strip that out
20:25 chris there seems to be no nice way of localizing js that i can find
20:26 pianohacker it would have to be slightly flexible, to handle both the YAML's simple _ and js's _('') and _(""), but I like the second approach better
20:27 pianohacker the first will make the js files much harder to read and change
20:29 chris yep
20:30 pianohacker the hardest part will be making xgettext and tmpl_process generic; tmpltokenizer is baked in pretty deep at the moment
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20:32 pianohacker theoretically you could make a tokenizer that emulated the interface and output of tmpltokenizer, allowing that to stay in place
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20:36 chris pianohacker: i want tmpl_process to go away
20:36 chris so will be working hard on my template toolkit stuff
20:36 chris (not before 3.2 of course)
20:37 pianohacker yeah, too many cycles of "we just need it do this one little thing more"
20:37 chris *nod*
20:37 pianohacker how does your template::toolkit stuff deal with translation?
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20:47 chris[…]te_Toolkit_syntax
20:47 chris copying the way the bugzilla dudes do it
20:49 chris basically localize on the fly from the .po files
20:49 chris rather than having different template sets
20:49 chris and through the magic of tt, cache the translated template
20:51 chris (preprocess where applicable too)
20:51 pianohacker hmm. that looks survivable
20:51 pianohacker we have gigantic .po's, though; how would you deal with first
20:51 chris and then my plan to release language packs
20:52 pianohacker -time lag
20:52 chris yeah, break them up
20:52 chris we have one giant one for the intranet now
20:52 pianohacker ahh, okay. By module, maybe?
20:52 chris that also can solve cait_laptop's problem
20:53 chris where the same string needs to be translated different in different templates
20:53 * cait_laptop starts reading
20:53 chris (different contexts)
20:53 chris also once we do this
20:53 pianohacker diff translations in different templates, or merely different modules?
20:54 chris it becuase easy to check translations inside context
20:54 chris becomes even
20:54 chris pianohacker: probably module .. there will be some trial and error
20:55 chris we can have .pot files too
20:56 chris and a terminology list
20:57 chris so that we can create .po files using the teminology list .. and then it would just be changing the ones that need to be different
20:57 chris rather than translating the same thing again and again
20:58 chris or we could have one big .po in pootle the way we do now
20:58 chris and have a script to split it (there are lots of these)
20:59 chris so in the release you get the split ones, and if you run from git, you can run the script to do it yourself
21:00 chris basically i havent decided yet :)
21:01 pianohacker all sounds good
21:01 chris my ultimate goal
21:01 chris is to be able to translate from within koha
21:02 chris and if you are rendering from the .tt + .po file
21:02 chris_n2 @later tell owen I added a suggested image to bug 2069 as well as a couple of other observations
21:02 munin` chris_n2: The operation succeeded.
21:02 cait_laptop I think translators would really like that - but sounds like a lot of work
21:02 chris that makes it a lot easier to see you translation right away
21:03 chris but a first step is
21:04 chris have my koha running using the .tt and .po files
21:04 chris so that when you change something in pootle it changes .po file .. and it shows up in my translation koha right away
21:05 chris that should make translation easier
21:05 chris or at least easier to check
21:07 cait_laptop chris++
21:08 cait_laptop good night :)
21:09 cait_laptop left #koha
21:11 pianohacker chris: last-gasp use of the tmpl_process architecture could be to accurately convert everything to .tt-
21:12 chris *nod*
21:12 chris there is a perl module to do that too, which seems to do an ok job
21:15 pianohacker bbl later, off to library and ice cream
21:17 chris nice
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21:44 chris hmmwb gmcharlt
21:44 chris heh, wb even
21:57 CGI028 joined #koha
21:57 CGI028 Hey all
21:57 CGI028 I've got a small question regarding items in Koha
21:57 CGI028 branch, barcode, itemtype) to the MARC data
21:58 CGI028 But when I view the biblio record
21:58 CGI028 so 4)
21:58 CGI028 Can anyone give me a quick hand?
22:01 chris sorry i dont understand your question
22:04 davi left #koha
22:05 CGI028 One second, I may have figured it out myself =)
22:13 davi joined #koha
22:29 |Lupin| joined #koha
22:29 |Lupin| good evening, all
22:29 |Lupin| good day NZ
22:37 jwagner left #koha
22:41 CGI028 left #koha
22:58 pianohacker hi |Lupin|
23:09 joetho left #koha
23:11 |Lupin| hey pianohacker
23:11 |Lupin| pianohacker: how are you ?
23:11 pianohacker alright
23:11 |Lupin| great
23:12 pianohacker typing one-handed due to broken fingers, but otherwise okay
23:12 pianohacker what are you up to?
23:14 |Lupin| pianohacker: what happened toyour fingers ?
23:14 |Lupin| pianohacker: just install
23:14 |Lupin| pianohacker: just installing a production Koha
23:14 pianohacker (bicycle accident)
23:15 pianohacker cool
23:15 |Lupin| pianohacker: oops
23:15 |Lupin| pianohacker: how long are you gonna be handicapped ?
23:15 pianohacker a few more weeks
23:16 pianohacker good opportunity to relearn touch typing
23:16 |Lupin| sure...
23:16 |Lupin| pianohacker: and to learn to appreciate the abilities one has with two hands... :-)
23:17 pianohacker no kidding on that one :)
23:17 pianohacker who's the production koha for?
23:17 * |Lupin| is wondering why cpan persists to place the .cpan directory in a user's home directory whereas cpan initialize is ran as root
23:17 |Lupin| pianohacker: my employer, the BrailleNet non-profit organisation
23:18 pianohacker |Lupin|: cpan is quite strange
23:18 pianohacker |Lupin|: nice! are you going live soon?
23:18 |Lupin| pianohacker: ok, but there is no reference to this directory in the environment for instance, so I'm really wonderign where it takes it from...
23:19 |Lupin| pianohacker: hmm, delicate question
23:19 pianohacker |Lupin|: are you running it with sudo? sudo can copy environment sometimes
23:19 pianohacker uh-oh
23:20 |Lupin| pianohacker: the developments are not finished yet. We need to adapt KOha so that our librarians can use it to upload files in addition to cataloguing, so I'm working on that now
23:20 pianohacker ahh
23:20 |Lupin| pianohacker: no I did a sdo su -
23:20 pianohacker any chance of public patches? That sounds really nice
23:20 |Lupin| pianohacker: and just looked at env's output
23:20 pianohacker hmm.
23:20 |Lupin| pianohacker: hmm...
23:22 |Lupin| pianohacker: not sure the KOha community is that interested... for ppl here cataloguing the files in Koha and storing them in a digital library management sstem should be two distinct actions, but for our use-case it is not very convenient
23:22 rhcl_busy is now known as rhcl_away
23:22 pianohacker I dunno. You could put it in a public git branch and see what people thought
23:23 |Lupin| pianohacker: sure
23:24 pianohacker If it wasn't too intrusive, could be useful for the occasional pdf someone wanted to put in their catalog
23:24 chris not so much should be distinct actions, but you should store digital documents in a digital document management system
23:24 chris wether you catalogue them in koha or not
23:24 chris otherwise you are just making your life difficult for the future
23:25 |Lupin| pianohacker: also, for the moment the integration is perhaps not as smooth as it could be. In particular, the part that transfers the files to the library management system should probably go into a plgin, but since this involves javascripting which is hard for me to do and test, I just replaced the additem script and template by a non-javscript version that uses only simple forms
23:25 pianohacker that additem two alone might actually be
23:25 pianohacker (sorry, hit enter by accident, nvm)
23:26 chris with a digital repository you get version control, full text searchign (where applicable) interface to remove/move the documents etc
23:26 |Lupin| chris: yeah I think in the long run this is what's going to happen. It's just that for the moment we have a home-made thing which hardly deserves the name of library management system but which we don't want to replace now.
23:27 chris so as long as the patches head towards allowing koha to work happily with a digital repository, like kete,fedora,greenstone etc
23:27 |Lupin| chris: the strategy which has been decided was to first replace the home-made web server by KOha (keeping the initial file server at that time), and then perhaps replace the file server by a genuine igital library management system
23:27 pianohacker brb dinner
23:27 chris if its a step along that path, then im sure everyone would like it
23:28 |Lupin| chris: even n its present state ? (no plugins...?)
23:29 |Lupin| chris: do you have an idea about the previously mentionned cpan issue, pls ?
23:29 chris if you put it in a public branch and keep it up to date, then its a step along a path, if you dont, its a dead end :)
23:29 * chris reads back
23:30 chris yeah sudo su -
23:30 chris isnt the same as
23:30 chris su - root
23:31 |Lupin| chris: what's the difference ?
23:32 |Lupin| chris: I didn't know the root password that's why I was forced to use sudo. Now I changed the root password so I can use sudo - root
23:33 chris basically youre environment doesnt change when you run sudo
23:33 chris your
23:34 chris at least it doesnt always
23:34 |Lupin| well I checked that and the environment looked to me as a genuine root environment
23:35 chris well its obviously not :)
23:35 chris or cpan would have no idea what user you actually were
23:35 |Lupin| chris: now when I run cpan initialize even as root, it seems it remembers some settings. For instance it doesn't ask me if it is ok to guess configuration values
23:35 |Lupin| (although the .cpan dir in the user's home dir has been removed)
23:35 chris did you su root
23:35 chris ?
23:36 |Lupin| yes
23:36 |Lupin| I su - root
23:36 chris and is there a .cpan dir in /root now?
23:37 |Lupin| chris: no
23:37 chris no idea then
23:37 |Lupin| chris: does cpan use some other configuraiton files where it could store settings or so ?
23:37 chris yes
23:38 |Lupin| chris: where are they ?
23:38 chris no idea on your system
23:38 |Lupin| chris: looked in /etc but couldn't find anything whose name contained cpan
23:38 |Lupin| chris: it's a freshly installd debian lenny
23:38 chris most of it is the module
23:39 chris and is overriden by the settings in .cpan
23:39 |Lupin| when I run cpan as root it imediately creates a directory under the user's home and asks whether it is OK to connect to the iinernet
23:41 chris what user?
23:42 |Lupin| I'm sorry ?
23:42 |Lupin| ah,
23:42 chris if you are running as root, then root is your user
23:42 |Lupin| my non-root user's account
23:43 |Lupin| but I just examined the output of set and env
23:43 |Lupin| and they don't mention this directory
23:43 |Lupin| except in OLDPWD
23:44 |Lupin| chris: yeah UID=0, USER=root, LOGNAME=root, HOME=/root
23:44 |Lupin| everything seems correct
23:44 chris what directory are you in when you run cpan
23:44 |Lupin| /root
23:44 chris weird
23:45 chris works fine for me
23:45 chris root@chris-laptop:/# ls -la /root/
23:45 chris drwxr-xr-x  2 root root 4096 2009-10-09 12:42 .cpan
23:45 |Lupin| I'm gonna strace the command and have a look to which files it opens...
23:45 chris (just tried it on my laptop)
23:47 |Lupin| chris: ok
23:48 chris there must be some remnant of it been run before that it remembers
23:51 |Lupin| yeah
23:51 |Lupin| I think it has a debugging mode
23:51 |Lupin| if looking at the list of files it opens does not succeed, I'll turn to that
23:52 |Lupin| /etc/perl/CPAN/
23:52 |Lupin| hmm
23:52 |Lupin| didn't think about an pper-case name, grrr
23:53 |Lupin| 'build_dir' => q[/home/dirnat/hinderer/.cpan/build],
23:53 |Lupin| here it is...
23:57 chris :)
23:58 * |Lupin| promises to use -iname rather than -name when running find..

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