Time Nick Message 00:22 chris http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/2944170/Two-earthquakes-off-Vanuatu 00:22 chris :( 00:24 pianohacker yikes 00:24 pianohacker yet another tsunami - I hope this one isn't as damaging 00:24 pianohacker good luck, chris 00:25 chris yeah i hope it is a false alarm 00:25 mason 3 in 1 week? 00:26 pianohacker you too, mason, Jo 00:27 mason heya, yep 00:28 pianohacker south 00:28 pianohacker _pacific/*, for that matter. at least the initial earthquake did less damage 00:29 chris yeah, theres not much left in samoa too damage 00:29 chris to even 00:44 chris alert cancelled 00:50 chris heya gmcharlt 00:51 gmcharlt hi chris 00:51 * gmcharlt loves in-flight wifi 00:53 chris :) 00:55 ricardo Hi all 00:56 ricardo chris: stll here? 00:56 chris yep 00:57 ricardo chris: Great! :) 00:57 ricardo With the help of hdl, I located a problem in the PO file... and I fixed it 00:57 chris its weird that it was working fine for me 00:57 chris with the version from git 00:58 chris still does in fact 00:58 ricardo chris: Yeah, weird... But when doing this small correction, when I re-generate the templates, all dirs appear 00:59 chris best fix it in pootle too then, so it makes it into git 01:00 chris or tell me what line and ill fix it 01:00 ricardo chris: Hmm.... The fix is pretty small (just 2 lines). http://git.koha.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=Koha;a=blob;f=misc/translator/po/pt-PT-i-staff-t-prog-v-3000000.po;h=2dbe0eeb5c864130ac66fe79702615aab987b95f;hb=3.0.x 01:00 ricardo http://git.koha.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=Koha;a=blob;f=misc/translator/po/pt-PT-i-staff-t-prog-v-3000000.po;h=2dbe0eeb5c864130ac66fe79702615aab987b95f;hb=3.0.x 01:00 ricardo It's in lines 5635 to 5638 of that file 01:01 ricardo Basically line 5637 should go away 01:02 ricardo and the content of line 5638 should go inside the quotes of line 5636 (the msgstr "" line) 01:03 chris ahh another reason why not to use a text editor to edit .po files :-) 01:03 ricardo Should I submit this as a patch, do you want to fix this yourself or should it be easy for me to do this with Pootle? 01:03 * chris will fix and commit it 01:03 ricardo chris: Great, thanks! :) 01:03 ricardo Oops 01:03 ricardo Small fix-to-the-fix 01:04 ricardo When you put the contents of line 5638 inside the quotes of line 5636... 01:04 ricardo you must change "<a2>" to "<a1>" 01:05 ricardo Clear enough? :-/ 01:05 ricardo chris ? 01:05 chris yep there is an error on the one below it too, will fix that 01:06 chris also 01:07 ricardo chris: Yeah... The one below was not so serious, but sure... it makes sense so correct that as well, while you're at it 01:09 chris pushing now 01:10 ricardo chris: Cool :) 01:10 ricardo Seeing them now 01:11 ricardo chris: Many thanks :) 01:12 chris no worries 01:13 ricardo This was one hard and strange bug to debug (cause and effect were not really logical, apparently) 01:13 chris yeah and it must be related to a version of gettext 01:13 chris since here it just skipped over that and did the rest 01:14 ricardo chris: Interesting... What is your distro / version? What version of gettext are you running? 01:14 chris debian unstable 01:15 chris gettext (GNU gettext-runtime) 0.17 01:17 ricardo # more /etc/debian_version 01:18 ricardo 5.0.3 01:18 ricardo # gettext --version 01:18 ricardo gettext (GNU gettext-runtime) 0.17 01:18 chris weird 01:20 ricardo yeah 01:20 pianohacker same here, with same observed effects as ricardo 01:20 ricardo pianohacker: Thanks for the feedback... Some other difference then. 01:23 ricardo (and there's my 1st "silent" conflict in git... a merge done too well. Don't worry: it's NOT related to the problem we were discussing here. It was related to C4/Search.pm) 01:24 ricardo Maybe I should undo my commits locally after sending them by "git-send-email"? 01:25 chris nope 01:25 chris but you shouldnt be doing your commits on master 01:25 ricardo chris: Don't worry. I'm NOT doing that :) 01:25 chris or 3.0.x etc 01:25 ricardo right... 01:25 ricardo I only use those 2 for pulling 01:25 chris good :) 01:26 chris once i submit my patches, my branch is done 01:26 ricardo I have "rickoha30x" and "rickohamaster" for commiting / rebasing / merging 01:26 chris and i start a new one 01:26 ricardo chris: That's what I was thinking... 01:26 ricardo (once i submit my patches, my branch is done) 01:26 chris (i leave it there, just dont use it) 01:26 ricardo Right 01:27 pianohacker chris: do you remove the branch on acceptance of patch 01:27 pianohacker ? 01:27 chris sometimes 01:27 ricardo chris: In this case "hdl" didn't apply my proposed patch to the file (C4/Search.pm), but instead changed something else in the file (and I agreed to that)... So, if I do a git pull, the file gets BOTH changes and, in this case, it should only keep hdl change 01:27 chris yeah 01:28 chris i never pull into my work branches 01:28 chris i fetch and rebase my 3.0.x and master one .. then merge into my work branch 01:29 chris pianohacker: if i have pushed that branch up remotely somewhere, then yep i delete it locally 01:29 ricardo chris: rebase? But if you're cleaning your 3.0.x / master "clean", you don't have local commits in those branches to rebase on top of their "origin"s... right? 01:30 ricardo s/ if you're cleaning/if you're keeping 01:30 chris nope but i still like to rebase versus merge 01:30 chris on my pristine branches 01:31 pianohacker for what reason? if it's a clean pull (fast-forward), it's the same difference, no? 01:31 ricardo chris: Well, I think in that case it makes no difference. But, yeah... if you don't "touch" those branches, maybe rebasing instead of merging, avoids getting some "merge" messages in the commit history, not sure 01:31 chris yep, it does 01:31 chris you dont end up wiht merge messages 01:32 ricardo chris: That's the only advantage (and difference) that I see, between both approaches, for a "pure mirror" scenario, like the one you're describing 01:32 chris yep thats the reason i do it 01:32 ricardo OK :) 01:33 chris because i push from there up to gitorious and github 01:33 ricardo I'm officially now TWO steps above... git newbie! ;-) 01:33 chris and i dont want to push up all the merge stuff 01:33 ricardo chris: OK 01:33 chris basically i want it to be an exact mirror 01:33 ricardo chris: RIGHT! 01:36 thd chris: what was the Koha wiki using before DokuWiki? 01:37 chris cant remember 01:38 thd chris: Yet there was one previously? 01:38 chris yes 01:38 chris for ages 01:38 chris hosted by roger buck in australia 01:39 chris march 20, 2002 it started 01:39 pianohacker do you have a url? earliest in wayback is 2006 as dokuwiki 01:39 thd yes so wiki.koha.org was not the URL? 01:39 chris nope 01:40 chris it was http://www.saas.nsw.edu.au/wiki/index.php 01:40 chris then it moved to 01:40 chris http://www.saas.nsw.edu.au/koha_wiki/index.php 01:41 chris didnt move to wiki.koha.org until after liblime existed, sometime in 2006 01:41 chris or late 2005 01:43 pianohacker based on http://web.archive.org/web/20041021075952/http://www.saas.nsw.edu.au/koha_wiki/, seems to be something called tavi 01:44 chris it did the job 01:44 ricardo chris: Interesting. I didn't know that 01:44 pianohacker looks similar to dokuwiki 01:44 ricardo pianohacker: Thanks for that info as well :) 01:44 pianohacker or moinmoin, rather 01:44 ricardo Well... Almost 3 AM now and I have to wake up early for work. 01:44 ricardo I'm leaving now 01:44 chris night ricardo 01:44 ricardo chris: Thank you very much for everything! :) 01:44 pianohacker good night, thanks for your translation work 01:45 ricardo pianohacker: You're welcome... Thanks for also testing this 01:45 * chris just got updated russian and ukranian .po files plus updated sql 01:45 pianohacker np, least i could do 01:46 ricardo @later tell hdl: Correcting the problematic section of the PO Portuguese staff file that you pointed out solved the "strange redirect problem". Thanks! :) Chris has already pushed the updated version to git 01:46 munin` ricardo: The operation succeeded. 01:46 pianohacker chris: cool. wish I could figure out a good way to make the .pref files translateable, though 01:46 ricardo Thanks munin` ;-) 01:46 ricardo (I hope the syntax was correct) 01:46 ricardo Bye people! 01:46 pianohacker I think the colon will cause problems 01:47 ricardo pianohacker: That's what I was thinking 01:47 ricardo Take 2 01:47 ricardo @later tell hdl Correcting the problematic section of the PO Portuguese staff file that you pointed out solved the "strange redirect problem". Thanks! :) Chris has already pushed the updated version to git 01:47 munin` ricardo: The operation succeeded. 01:47 ricardo There... just in case. 01:47 ricardo Sleep time. Take care! 01:49 pianohacker what would the koha project do without people with weird sleep schedules 01:51 chris heh 01:51 gmcharlt become a boring 9 to 5 job? 01:52 pianohacker bah. I can't remember the last time I did anything nine to five 01:52 gmcharlt now, did I specify 9 a.m. to 5 p.m.? ;) 01:52 pianohacker ahahaha 01:52 pianohacker there you go 02:29 thd jo: are you there? 02:35 thd Is there anyone from NZ around who can clarify an issue about NZ charitable trusts? 02:35 chris probably not 02:36 thd I will ask on the mailing list. 02:37 thd chris: what do you think of the majority vote for foundation now? 02:37 chris it was what i feared would happen 02:38 chris democracy only works if people understand the issues 02:38 thd I presumed that was the less well informed vote about the practical problem 02:38 chris i think most people think they were voting for the final solution 02:39 chris (who voted for form a foundation now) 02:40 chris im also worried that so many think a foundation/association will be able to govern 02:40 thd chris: we need to explain the issues on the mailing list where maybe people will understand that foundation now means foundation later and not now because it would take to long to agree on things. 02:40 chris yeah 02:40 thd chris: What would the foundation have to govern? 02:40 chris i dont know, but people seem to want it to govern 02:41 chris i just want it as a place to store community property 02:41 chris people seem to think it would be able to have stopped things like the fork etc 02:41 richard i would have thought the only thing it would govern are the domain names and being the copyright holder 02:41 thd I suppose I do as well in the sense that we need some procedures for agreeing how to use community property 02:41 chris or would be able to govern the project/control direction 02:42 thd controlling the project in terms of directing development is silly 02:42 chris thd and richard, i agree wholeheartedly 02:43 chris http://www.librarytechnology.org/blog.pl?ThreadID=126&BlogID=1 things like this 02:43 richard yeah, the direction of development is from people wanting to develop a feature stuff and getting it done - not some entity saying that this is what you should develop next 02:44 thd although I can imagine an interest in marshalling some effort at fixing neglected bugs or allowing companies to cooperate better where there are not enough discrete customers to demand something everyone really wants 02:46 chris yep as long as people realise a foundation has no control over what people do 02:46 chris trying to set one up to control the project = recipe for fail 02:47 chris one to hold property so it cant be misused = win 02:47 chris IMHO anyway 02:47 thd I think that it could do more by degrees 02:47 chris it could influence direction sure 02:48 chris if people wanted to let it 02:48 chris i fear that people think it will magically stop situations like what has occured with liblime happening 02:48 thd It could also help people share resources, exactly if people wanted to provide resources to the foundation expressly for sharing 02:48 chris yep 02:49 thd the license allows LibLime to do what it is doing with the code. 02:50 chris exactly 02:50 chris and having a foundation wouldnt change that one bit 02:51 thd no one can force cooperation from people even with a slightly different license which covers some problems. 02:51 chris yep 02:52 pianohacker you can strongly encourage cooperation, but not force it 02:52 pianohacker same with direction of dev 02:52 pianohacker elopment 02:52 chris things like this make me fearful 02:52 chris I think this article from K Schneider, Free Range Librarian, is well worth everyone's attention, especially as it brings back into the focus the need for a thriving and well structured governance layer within the Koha Foundation. 02:53 thd I have some questions which I would like to put to SFLC but I do not want to be asking merely privately. 02:53 chris http://freerangelibrarian.com/2009/09/18/it-takes-a-village-koha-and-open-source-leadership/ 02:53 Jo hi all - just reading back 02:53 chris and that 02:53 thd Jo: Can you answer some question about NZ charitable trusts? 02:53 Jo sure 02:54 chris "Like a lot of software projects, Koha’s movement toward coherent self-government has lagged behind its software development and adoption, and this has left the project in a position where no one legally-recognized entity can say to Liblime, “No, you can’t do that.†Koha has a nascent user group, and has been talking about a foundation, but it hasn’t got to a place where Koha belongs to Koha, with a clearly-defined legal entity." 02:54 Jo (totally confident) 02:54 chris stuff like that, which people seem to believe is possible makes me worried 02:55 Jo This is a good resource too: http://www.community.net.nz/how-toguides/legalstructures/publicationsresources/charitable-trust.htm 02:55 chris frankly a thriving governance layer that tries to govern the project would probably be the only reason id ever fork :-) 02:55 thd Jo: We discovered that in the US the Internal Revenue Service has a rule that assets cannot be transferred to a non-US based nonprofit. 02:55 Jo and this is relebvant: http://www.community.net.nz/how-toguides/legalstructures/landingpage.htm 02:55 Jo thd: ok. 02:56 Jo so can't be transferred from 1 us based charitable trust to an off shore charitable trust 02:56 thd Jo: Do you know of any similar tax rule affecting NZ charitable trusts? 02:56 Jo no - but i will investigate 02:56 Jo but regardless, they can be sold for 41 02:56 Jo sorry $1 (not 41) 02:56 Jo ie sold for a peppercorn 02:57 Jo (muses that I sold a limited liability company for $1 once) 02:58 thd Jo: I am not certain if a $1 sale would pass in the US if some US charity would be watching over the sale and worrying about what the IRS might think.. 02:59 Jo make it a tenner then :) 02:59 Jo (i'm off looking now ...) 02:59 thd Jo: I think many want some place in the US and Europe to give resources 03:00 Jo so US based people who want to give stuff want a US based koha trust/org/foundation? 03:00 thd Jo: Could HLT set up some place to hold money in a US and French bank? 03:01 Jo I don't know the answer to that either. I do however have a lawyer I can all these questions of 03:01 thd Jo: Well the less which is lost through currency conversion the better. 03:02 thd Jo: If donated resources are spent in the originating currency they can pay for a little more. 03:03 thd Jo: There is also the issue of perhaps obtaining grants from US and European organisations which grant only within their own regions. 03:06 Jo sure. 03:08 Jo I think we would be a good body to hold the copyright, trademarks and domain name in trust for the community at large. Not at all sure the Trustees would be keen to get heavily involved personally in lots of big stuff. 03:08 Jo I see the Trust as an interim step 03:08 Jo a fast, immediate, pair of safe hands 03:08 chris i see that as perfect 03:08 chris ;) 03:08 Jo whci is what we need - now - immediately. 03:09 chris frankly something that gets heavily involved sounds like a recipe for a mess to me 03:09 Jo the koha.org site is a bloody joke 03:09 Jo its a liblime advertsiing site 03:09 chris yup 03:09 Jo and anyone who didn't know the history would think that liblime IS koha 03:09 chris indeed 03:10 Jo and i think HLT needs to stand up very quietly and politely, and ask for Liblime to give the community assets back to the community. 03:11 Jo if they refuse, or insist on a sale at an unreasonable price ie more than just a token price, then the Koha community needs to seriously rethink what we want to call ourselves.... coz Koha is not and can never be just 1 vendor 03:12 Jo which is the myth being perpetuated in the States and through koha.org at the moment 03:12 thd Jo: I see at as interim as well but people in the US may have an easier time helping the long term if they can give to somewhere that they can pretend is in the US even if it is really in NZ or wherever. 03:12 Jo sure. 03:13 Jo so i see 2 issues: 03:13 Jo immediate problem: reclaim koha assets for the koha community 03:13 Jo mid - long term: tease out the Koha foundation tangle and see what options are and what needs to be done 03:14 Jo 2nd one can not be rushed 03:14 thd People need to be persuaded with the reality that the second cannot or should not be rushed. 03:15 Jo yes they do. 03:15 chris yep 03:15 thd Jo: 56% of those who voted did not understand that. 03:15 Jo thatis our very real problem 03:15 thd the second highest vote was for HLT. 03:16 chris if you look at the raw data 03:16 chris the people most involved in koha voted for hlt or spi 03:16 Jo well, thats the problem with democracy :) 03:16 chris the people new to koha voted for a new foundation 03:16 chris this is the issue we face 03:17 Jo i wonder if HLT should just take the lead 03:17 chris naw, dont wanna pull a liblime 03:17 chris thats what it will forever be known as 03:17 Jo and ask for BibLibre and Liblime to please give the stuff back 03:17 Jo immediate problem solved 03:17 chris "pulling a liblime" = doing stuff without consultation 03:17 Jo I know - I get that. 03:17 thd exactly 03:18 thd Jo: HLT has trust because they have never asserted a legacy interest in promoting their own interests 03:19 Jo excatly 03:19 Jo and nor do we want to now 03:19 thd Jo: Showing leadership is one thing but be careful about how to be seen to promote that leadership. 03:20 Jo sigh ... ok ..... which brings us back to the vote whioch was clearly confusing and not understood 03:20 Jo (I'm really a bully / dictator you know ....) 03:21 chris :-) 03:21 thd I think that the biggest disadvantage to SPI and the Conservancy is that the project will not get the attention which it can get from HLT with no real investment on the part of HLT 03:21 pianohacker we want to consider the results carefully, though, to avoid charges of "well why did you have the poll if you're just going to ignore it?" 03:22 thd At least nengard thinks that the question was not explained well on the ballot 03:22 Jo yep 03:22 Jo totally agree 03:22 chris spi, conservancy, hlt are all fine with me 03:22 Jo we need wise words from the kaitiaki 03:23 chris hlt would be the preference 03:23 Jo i don't want the community to be expecting big 'action-man' response from HLT 03:23 Jo coz it won't happen 03:23 chris thats why i favour hlt 03:23 chris :) 03:23 Jo we are low key, relaxed, honest, trusting 03:23 thd pianohacker: we obviously cannot ignore the result of the poll. The only advantage we have is a little time before the final poll on the issue. 03:23 Amit hi chris, brendan 03:24 Jo hiya 03:24 chris yeah someone who is gonna tell me what to work on = not gonna fly 03:24 Amit good morning #koha 03:24 pianohacker thd: yes 03:24 Amit heya Jo 03:24 Jo and we absolutely do believe in the koha community is the best 'ruler' of the koha community 03:24 thd We can also be certain that the wording of the poll is reviewed by everyone before it is published. 03:25 pianohacker chris: if the foundation were to pull together resources and _hire_ a developer, that would be entirely different 03:25 Jo its almost like there is a part A and part B 03:25 Jo part A has 2 questions: 03:25 chris pianohacker: indeed :) 03:25 chris pianohacker: that would be great 03:25 Jo Q1: should HLT be asked to secure koha stuff and hold in trust for the community 03:26 Jo yes and no 03:26 Jo immediate response in other words 03:26 pianohacker (of course, this is a fully-fledged foundation and not an intermediate trust) 03:26 thd Jo: the statement in the wiki about how HLT would accommodate the project would give more autonomy to the project than any non-independent entity. 03:27 Jo Q2 Or should the community do nothing in haste and proceed with investigations to either set up a koha foundation or join something bigger 03:27 Jo then the second part of the poll comes in : ie a bunch of options. 03:28 thd Jo: I like the way you put those questions. 03:28 thd You can get any result you want if you ask in the right way. 03:29 Jo needs to be made very clear to koha community at large that the trustees would do this with a light hand ... the commun ity will still have to step forward and volunteer and nominate officeholders and coordinate development, training, conferences etc 03:29 thd The questions should be seen to be a little more neutral. 03:30 Jo (I speak a little too crisply or bluntly sometimes - especially wjhen excited :) My words can always be smoothed and softened and rephrased ;) 03:30 thd Jo: all the competing organisations let the projects run themselves but others have more rules about how to interact with the holding organisation. 03:30 chris well not IFLA 03:31 Jo My Trustees want to be clear what the communitys expectations of them are. 03:31 Jo not into overpromising and underdelivering 03:31 thd IFLA is not a holding organisation and should have been a different ballot question. 03:31 chris yeah 03:31 chris ppl voted for it though 03:32 chris librarians seem to like huge committees that talk all the time and do very little 03:32 * chris generalises grossly 03:32 thd Jo: People should not expect more than what the project contributes on its own. 03:32 pianohacker *cough* frbr *cough* 03:33 thd Jo: People just need a legal entity to allow the project to do whatever it needs to do without too much trouble. 03:33 Jo Chris: agreed .. and get all over organised and bossy and nit picky and 'superior' (and yes I am a librarian) 03:33 Jo pianohacker: bad cough mate - should get that looked at :) 03:34 pianohacker Jo: yeah, yeah 03:34 Jo so, we appear to be all agreed 03:34 thd people should be thankful that HLT is there to help even a little. 03:34 Jo so how to proceed 03:36 thd Jo: People need to comment on the poll results and related matters. 03:36 Jo hello AMit! 03:36 Jo so this discussion we have just had really needed to be on the list 03:36 Jo waves at Galen 03:37 * gmcharlt waves at Jo 03:37 thd People should express what they believe about whether the ballot question was well understood. 03:37 Jo I don't think it was clear 03:37 Jo so really good exercise to go through in that it has higghlighted the con fusion 03:38 thd The question should be asked as to whether people think that a foundation could really be set up now. 03:38 thd How many people have set up foundations and had them flourish. 03:39 Amit heya Jo 03:39 thd I have seen organisations killed on the first meeting with some poor bylaws. 03:39 Amit chris: Today Bangalore workshop started 03:39 gmcharlt whether a foundation *can* be set up I would argue is not actually something that Koha people in general can answer - it will ultimately depend on *some* people having the will and/or the institution backing to go through with it 03:41 Jo I'm going to scan and load the HLT trust deed online. 03:41 Jo sets out what we can and can' 03:41 thd gmcharlt: I am confident it was there but it took Jbrice 2 years to start KUDOS because he became too busy. 03:41 Jo cant do 03:42 thd Jo: Do you have an accountant or someone to ask about holding monetary donations in the US and France? 03:43 Jo yep. 03:43 chris Amit: cool :) 03:44 thd Actually, with only 165 votes it would be very easy to find a few more votes to swing any outcome which is my biggest concern about contentious issues. 03:44 Jo heres our HLT Trust Deed: http://kete.library.org.nz/trust/documents/show/39-deed-of-trust 03:45 thd We should have more people voting if we can have informed people voting. 03:46 thd Jo: How independent is HLT of local government control? 03:47 Jo "Trust has all of the same powers as a natural person" 03:47 Jo the trustees are appointed by the District Council 03:47 Jo we have a management agreement which sets out agreed performance measures 03:48 Jo are audited by Audit NZ (central Govt auditors) 03:48 Jo get 85% funding from local council rest from fees and charges and grants and donations 03:49 Jo so, basically if it got really shitty council could theoretically starve us of funding, or appoint crappy trustees. 03:49 Jo but it has never happened. 03:50 Jo clause 20 of the deed looks interesting: Power to Create Classes of members 03:51 Jo and the schedule 03:51 Jo we can invrest in NZ or overseas 03:52 Jo schdule 20s: delegate to committee 03:53 Jo "Bank accounts: open an account at any bank" schedule k 03:53 Jo schedules for delegate to committee 03:53 Jo that was what i envisaged for the Koha group : a sub committee of the Trust 03:54 Jo so yes to bank account in France or USA (we have a paypall account in the states :) 03:55 Jo schedule t: (I love this one) Do such other acts and things as the Trustees wants ... 04:03 pianohacker off to vpn land, cya all tomorrow 04:03 thd Jo: Wow, you seem to have much more discretion than any US non-profit would have. 04:04 thd Jo: In the US non-profits cannot do things outside far to many rules. 04:04 chris thd: yes charitable trusts are set up for that reason 04:05 thd chirs: Does that mean that there are much more restrictive non-profits in NZ like those in the US? 04:05 chris yep incorporated societies 04:06 chris http://www.societies.govt.nz/cms/incorporated-societies/rules-of-incorporated-societies 04:07 chris bascially you have to set up a bunch of rules ... and stick to them 04:07 thd Jo: People would probably want a legal guarantee as a formality ensuring that assets would be used as directed by the Koha community. 04:08 chris ok, gotta go catch my bus 04:10 Jo sure. 04:11 Jo The powers seem pretty wide but uit is heavily monitored and scritinised 04:12 Jo full team of auditors here every year auditing everything, not only money, by goals, plans, strategies etc and how and why we did everything. 04:12 thd Jo: slef will want a really solid guarantee. 04:12 Jo thats all by agreement :) 04:13 thd Jo: It is not the accounting which would be at issue it is the use of any assets. 04:13 Madar G.morning 04:13 Jo sure - and once we agree on something we have to do it 04:13 Jo its about transparency and accountability 04:13 Jo and thats what the auditors check - not just money 04:14 Jo ok - have to go - pilates class. 04:14 Jo talk tomorrow :) 04:14 thd Jo: have fun stretching 04:14 Jo cya 04:14 thd good morning Madar 04:25 Madar i 've a question about Koha Error 04:26 Madar when i finished add record 04:28 Madar thi caNT SAVE IT 04:57 Madar this the Error - <thd> 04:57 Madar Koha error The following fatal error has occurred: Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/Biblio.pm line 1542 Apache Server version: Apache/2.2.8 (Ubuntu) Server built: Jun 11 2009 18:39:41 Koha 3.00.00.107 Koha DB 3.0000107 MySQL mysql Ver 14.12 Distrib 5.0.51a, for debian-linux-gnu (i486) using readline 5.2 OS Linux web.com 2.6.24-23-generic #1 SMP Wed Apr 1 21:47:28 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/Linux Perl 5.008008 05:04 thd Madar: What error do you see displayed in the staff client record editor? 05:06 thd Madar: Is it via using the record editor where you have this bug? 05:32 Madar Koha error The following fatal error has occurred: Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/Biblio.pm line 1542 Apache Server version: 05:43 Ropuch Morning, #koha 05:56 richard hi Ropuch 06:17 kf morning :) 07:01 chris hi all 07:02 hdl hi chris 07:10 hdl About translations, 07:11 hdl sql and some js should get into po. 07:11 hdl do you have a suggestion for that ? 07:13 kf hi chris and hdl 07:15 chris nope 07:15 chris just have to write another copy of tmpl_process3.pl 07:15 chris that understands .js 07:15 chris and one for sql as well 07:16 Madar <thd> Is it via using the record editor where you have this bug? 07:16 Madar nope 07:16 Ropuch I have a book added with book framework with itemtype book, yet i typed 1 in # Volume/Copy for serials (orderreceive.pl) 07:17 Ropuch I did it by mistake, but then the book was shown line an serial in opac 07:17 Madar it is after finished tha save record from Home › Cataloguing › Add MARC Record 07:17 Ropuch Shoud it be that way? I was sure it depends on itemtype 07:17 hdl chris tmpl_process3.pl :((((( 07:17 Ropuch Hello chris, Madar 07:18 Ropuch and hdl :) 07:18 hdl i'd rather use gettext from bare command-line ;) 07:18 chris :) 07:18 chris well make one that does that 07:18 chris just a .sh script 07:18 chris might be the win 07:19 Madar hi Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/Biblio.pm line 15420505 07:19 Madar Hi all, I have an error while while adding a book in the koha.i am getting the error like: Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/Biblio.pm line 246205 07:19 chris hdl: actually yeah a shell script that calls gettext would probably work fine ;) 07:20 chris i might try that this weekend if i get some time 07:35 CGI944 hi there anybody can help me 07:38 CGI944 the error what am getting when am adding a book is "Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/Biblio.pm line 1542" 07:38 CGI944 what can i do to solve this problem? 07:46 Ropuch Hello paul_p 07:55 hdl CGI944: I think this comes out of a problem in your Biblio framework. 07:55 hdl have you checked that ? 07:55 hdl (in administration= 07:59 Madar Biblio framework ??? how ?? 08:04 hdl in Administration/ you have a link to check your framework 08:19 Madar يهي ع ةثشى : MARC Bibliographic framework 08:19 Madar did u mean MARC Bibliographic framework 08:57 hdl yes 09:33 ricardo Good morning paul_p ! 09:37 Madar sry but am still i dnt know what i have 2 do in MARC Bibliographic framework ??? 09:50 hdl Madar : 09:51 hdl have you checked you frameworks ? 09:52 hdl cgi-bin/koha/admin/checkmarc.pl 09:52 hdl and look at the results 09:56 Ropuch I've just send my chief link to prototype of our opac, it would be his first contact with live Koha 09:57 Ropuch I hoping for the best as i want him to share some bandwitch and server space for polsih Koha site ;> 09:57 Ropuch s/polsich/polisch 10:09 magnusenger Having some value_builder problems... Trying to create a normarc_field_008.pl, but when I select it for the 008 field, it doesn't "stick". Neither does marc21_field_008.pl. Then I set it to normarc_field_008.pl "by hand" in MySQL, but when I click on "..." next to 008, up pops marc21_008_field.pl. Any ideas? 10:11 hdl have you reloaded your page ? 10:15 magnusenger hdl: yes, and the marc_subfield_structure.value_builder wasn't set to enything before I set it to normarc_field_008.pl 10:15 hdl which page ? addbiblio.pl ? 10:17 magnusenger hdl: yes 10:21 magnusenger sorry, found it, There's some JavaScript in *_field_008.pl which tells addbiblio.pl which value_builder to use. 10:22 magnusenger So my normarc_field_008.pl was telling addbiblio.pl to open marc21_field_008.pl... 11:01 slef Afternoon all. Why is the default search order often surname,firstname instead of cardnumber? 11:29 hdl hi 11:30 gmcharlt slef: not sure why - do you have enough overlap between patron card numbers and names that it makes a difference? 11:32 hdl slef: in little libraries, name and surnames are more often searched on 11:38 Madar <hdl> yesss i was checked 11:39 Madar i see the results 11:40 Madar did u mean i must edit some of it ? and how ? 11:44 slef gmcharlt: no. I'm having poor performance on some searches and have traced it back to sorting by names being a filesort, while sorting by cardnumber has an index. 11:44 slef hdl: Not the search itself, but the order. 11:45 gmcharlt slef: do we need to just add indexes on the surname and firstname columns, then? 11:46 slef gmcharlt: can't index text fields on a MyISAM table. 11:46 slef (IIRC) 11:47 gmcharlt what about an InnoDB table? ;) 11:47 slef I think that can do fulltext indexing, yes, but why are we using MyISAM? 11:47 gmcharlt the point I'm trying to make is that we're not using MyISAM 11:47 slef ok, I'll recheck my notes 11:48 gmcharlt but if InnoDB doesn't do indexes on text columns either, we could change the name columns to varchar 11:49 slef "FULLTEXT indexes are supported only for MyISAM tables" 11:49 slef ok, I'm backwards 11:49 slef changing them to varchar() would also allow indexing 11:49 slef but why are they mediumtext and text? 11:50 gmcharlt probably for the same reason many, many columns are mediumtext and text - it was easier at the time to go with a data type that didn't require you to guess a maximum length 11:53 slef so are users going to be bitten if we introduce a maximum length? 11:53 chris_n g'morning 11:53 chris_n slef: see my comment on bug 3583 11:53 munin` 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3583 blocker, P5, ---, cnighswonger@foundations.edu, ASSIGNED, Patron Card Labels should print 11:53 slef chris_n: hi. No, I haven't yet. 11:54 chris_n slef: this week has been a schedule killer so it will be sometime next week before I get back on the pcard stuff 11:55 slef chris_n: ok. Thanks for the comment. I had forgotten that there was a batch-former option on the marc import. 11:56 chris_n slef: there are a number of "bells and whistles" enhancements that can be added based on the new label and pcard code 11:57 chris_n the one you suggest is a good idea and shouldn't take much time 11:57 slef chris_n: probably. I should go play with it more, but I'm trying to catch up with user requests just now, so am trying to make sure we're feeding to bugs.koha.org where appropriate. 11:57 slef lunchtime here. bbi30ish 11:59 chris_n gmcharlt: that win32 port of Koha is looking like it may be doable in the next 12 months or so 12:00 * chris_n did not realize the stimulating effect he has on some people ;-) 12:02 jwagner chris_n, it's far too early in the morning for stimulation.... 12:02 chris_n @later tell gmcharlt that win32 port of Koha is looking like it may be doable in the next 12 months or so 12:02 munin` chris_n: The operation succeeded. 12:03 chris_n jwagner: probably a heavy dose of coffee would help :-) 12:07 jwagner But I don't drink coffee :-( However, my tea should be brewed by now. Let me go retrieve it.... 12:08 chris_n jwagner: tea should do just as well.... I like either... and the more variety the better 12:12 jwagner A friend of mine owns a button, which comes in very handy at groggy moments. It reads Tea. Earl Grey. Hot. 12:13 jwagner Can't get much more succinct than that. 12:23 chris_n lol... Earl Grey is probably at the top of my list 12:36 gmcharlt chris_n: cool (re win32 port) - tell me more 12:38 chris_n gmcharlt: as you can see here https://rt.cpan.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=48576 it is hoped that XML::LibXML will be part of the next Strawberry release 12:39 chris_n I was able to get it installed under the beta_2 release of strawberry 12:40 chris_n I'm currently working to get the rest of the perl deps installed under strawberry beta to see if Koha will run 12:40 gmcharlt chris_n++ 12:40 chris_n of course this is a very back-burner project 12:40 chris_n gmcharlt: I assume this might be of interest to the EG project as well? 12:45 magnusenger i'm almost certain i have seen a value_builder-script where at first you see only one or two fields, then when you make a choice the other, relevant fields appear, but i can't seem to find it now... sound familiar to anyone? 12:46 chris_n gmcharlt: the chances of XML::LibXSLT being in the the October release of Strawberry have just been greatly boosted by the release of XML::LibXSLT 1.70 yesterday.... this is very nice 12:48 gmcharlt chris_n: probably would be - I don't know if anybody's pursued porting EG server to Windows, but XML::LibXML and XML::LibXSLT would be prereqs, sure 12:52 chris_n bbl 13:09 thd gmcharlt: do you see the problem which I have identified for the relicensing ballot? 13:09 slef thd: what problem? 13:10 thd slef: There is no proper question on the ballot 13:10 thd See my message to the koha list 13:10 slef thd: even after the rewording I mentioned in the meeting? 13:10 slef ok, looking at koha list 13:13 owen Hi pianohacker, you're in early 13:13 pianohacker good morning 13:13 pianohacker yup, thought I'd try getting up before 10:00 once this week 13:14 * owen can't imagine why 13:17 pianohacker bbl 13:18 owen Hmmm.... Did I get him thinking about going back to bed? 13:20 thd slef: whatever the question should be that people are asked to ascent to should appear at the top of the ballot page for people to agree or not. 13:24 thd slef: the way in which GPL is mentioned could mean GPL 1 which no one would really understand but in a ballot about relicensing more precision should be given than in more casual use. 13:24 slef thd: I am very cross with you. 13:24 thd why 13:24 thd ? 13:25 gmcharlt thd: licensing of the wiki and the Koha software itself are different matters 13:25 slef This was covered in the meeting. You were here. 13:26 thd gmcharlt: yes, I understand that they are different. 13:26 thd I also understood that there was an attempt to make them compatible 13:26 thd maybe I missed something at some point during the meeting 13:27 thd All I am asking is that the ballot question be precise. 13:28 thd I know that my message is long but it has a simple conclusion that the ballot question simply needs wording about how the relicensing is to be invoked. 13:28 slef Do you want the relicensing ballot postponed? 13:28 thd No 13:28 thd I did not want to imply that 13:29 gmcharlt thd: thanks for saying that - otherwise, frankly I would consider your email to be a purely dilatory move 13:29 kf owen: thx for solving 3676 :) 13:29 gmcharlt can we agree that the question will specify a GPL version, e.g., GPL v2 or later? 13:30 thd gmcharlt: I was really only trying to be helpful with very little time because I had thought the issue deferred until the meeting. 13:30 thd I had asked chris about it last week and he suggested that the issue had been deferred 13:30 thd Of course I asked the wrong person. 13:31 thd Ignore my call for lawyers to look at the issue. They are unlikely to give an answer really helpful to the community and I will write another message to say so. 13:33 thd gmcharlt: Yes if the question is relicense under GPL 2 or later and that appears at the top of the ballot page then I think that the question has been properly asked. 13:35 thd gmcharlt slef: I would be doubtful of enough response in the small ballot window if an email message is not sent to each of the people on the list of names as well. 13:36 gmcharlt thd: which, oddly enough, is why slef and I doing exactly that during the meeting yesterday 13:36 gmcharlt please pay more attention before assuming that we didn't take that into account 13:38 thd gmcharlt: I am sorry but I did loose attention at a certain point and was surprised that the issue was being reintroduced at this particular moment. 13:38 thd I am all for it if that is not clear 13:38 thd I just want to be certain that it is done well. 13:38 slef This has been bumped in the last few general meetings. It shouldn't be a surprise. 13:39 thd I may have missed something from the context earlier. 13:40 thd I kept looking at the wiki relicensing page and seeing vote to be held in May. 13:45 slef it probably should have been updated sooner and linked from meetings pages when it was bumped, but http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?do=search&id=relicensing does show it. 13:50 thd gmcharlt slef: looking at kohatoday I missed nothing but the issue was rushed by so quickly I had no idea what was happening.. 13:50 slef thd: what is kohatoday? 13:50 thd The current IRC logs 13:50 thd Is logbot working again? 13:51 slef NAFAIK 13:51 thd http://stats.workbuffer.org/irclog/koha/ 13:52 thd I am sorry that I did not have time in May to properly address the issue and am happy for any reasonable resolution of it. 13:53 thd I realise that my long message may cause confusion so I will fix that now. 13:54 thd slef: If you know or know where to check I am quite curious about what advise the Debian project had from lawyers about using the GPL as a documentation license. 13:54 slef Not OTTOMH 13:54 slef but we've been using it for a decade or so 13:55 slef and we're not broken yet 13:55 slef the move to the GPL was inspired by problems with the OPL IIRC but it's before my time 13:55 thd I know there is much that goes by because people basically want it to work 13:55 slef I doubt it changed without a few detailed discussions 13:56 slef http://lists.debian.org/search.html may know 13:56 thd I just remember it being a huge controversy recently in the context of GFDL. 13:57 slef it predates FDL. FSF asked debian contributor opinions on FDL, then seemed to ignore nearly all of them. 13:57 thd I do consider GFDL to be a big problem and I say so in my message to the list that GPL is the only real option 13:58 slef getting debian contributors to do work and then essentially rejecting it is a pretty easy way to cause a huge controversy 13:58 thd Bradley Kuhn said that developers were consulted quite poorly about GFDL 13:58 slef yeah, I've read similar messages from him 13:59 thd Consulting developers a little and publishers much more is what I think that he meant. 14:01 thd slef: If the current comment process existed which SFLC helped design I think that the issue would have been addressed from the beginning. 14:01 slef By the current comment process, do you mean stet? 14:02 thd Well it is not perfect but yes 14:02 thd It is much better than the absence of it. 14:02 slef If so, it's a buggy mess and there are tons of unanswered comments in it. 14:02 thd Mostly unanswered comments yes. 14:03 slef The problem is with the process QA and the accountability, not the technicalities. 14:03 thd However, every comment is read at SFLC. 14:03 thd Eben Moglen personally reads each comment. 14:04 thd as do others. 14:04 thd Unfortunately they do not have enough people to respond to everyone. 14:06 thd I managed to help influence the wording of GPL 3 so I know that it works. The wording change took my statement almost exactly when I was not attempting to specify wording. 14:08 thd slef: I am very sorry for missing the bumping. Bumping is easy to miss. I will try to fix any confusion which I may have caused with my message now. 14:09 thd I did at least see everything in yesterdays meeting 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 thd ing 14:09 pianohacker ? 14:09 thd ing 14:10 thd oops 14:11 * thd have been having keyboard trouble for months 14:11 thd I have read something that suggests it may be a kernel bug. 14:12 thd Replacing the keyboard does no good 14:13 wizzyrea is it wireless? 14:13 wizzyrea because my wireless one does similar stupid things sometimes 14:14 wizzyrea (and I use a Mac) 14:14 thd no, I never want a wireless keyboard. 14:15 thd It is not USB which could now be part of the problem in some recent Linux kernels 14:19 thd slef: The license choice in the Wiki is a DokuWiki default. The previous wiki had no license statement. I doubt anyone ever decided anything in examining DokWiki configuration. 14:23 slef on customer call 14:33 slef back 14:34 slef thd: is "Yes, I am in favor of changing the wiki page license to the GPLv2+ terms used by the main Koha download" clear enough? 14:35 thd I prefer "or later version" to "+" for clarity. 14:35 thd I know what you mean but others may find it too subtle. 14:35 slef just "or later" and expand the "v" to "version"? 14:36 owen gmcharlt around? 14:36 gmcharlt owen: yes 14:37 owen Is there a patch floating around for sounds-on-checkout? 14:37 thd slf: yes 14:37 gmcharlt there's something in Michael Hafen's tree, I think 14:37 thd slef: yes, the way you last put it seems fine 14:37 gmcharlt as I recall, main issue is making sure that sounds are not tied to requiring Flash, but it's been a while 14:39 slef http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=relicensing updated 14:41 thd slef: I would use the word 'software' instead of "download" for clarity but there is no point of confusion anymore. 14:41 * owen sees Flash-based audio stuff in mhafen's tree 14:42 * owen wonders if HTML5 has improved our options 14:43 gmcharlt owen: I believe so, in theory 14:47 tomascohen hi everyone, just wanted to say I'm happy i managed to bypass the firewall to be with you 14:47 tomascohen :-D 14:48 owen Hi tomascohen 14:48 hdl hi tomascohen 14:58 kf hi tomascohen 14:59 davi 15:03 * owen is looking for some nice open-source-licensed beeps 15:06 ricardo @quote add <tomascohen> hi everyone, just wanted to say I'm happy i managed to bypass the firewall to be with you *** tomascohen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 15:06 munin` ricardo: The operation succeeded. Quote #40 added. 15:06 ricardo Sorry, couldn't resist ;-) 15:07 tomascohen ricardo++ 15:07 ricardo Hi tomascohen :) 15:08 slef thd: reply emailed to list 15:09 thd slef: I was about to send a correcting message 15:10 * jdavidb pinches his daughter, and records the eeps and squeaks she makes, sticks a CC license on 'em, and sends them to owen. 15:10 owen jdavidb: Can she make a noise that expresses the idea "Your checkout has failed?" 15:11 jdavidb I bet she could, owen. Teens are good at expressing their opinion of adults' failure. 15:11 owen it would be funny if you could load different personalities for your audio feedback 15:12 * owen is really just looking for a couple of good beeps 15:12 jdavidb Like my GPS, which speaks NZ English, since the USian voices in it are *boring.* 15:12 hdl a sound like ouch ;) 15:13 pianohacker owen: I used the ubuntu sound set for a similar project 15:14 owen pianohacker: I was just thinking there must be such a thing 15:14 pianohacker it was internal, so I didn't check the license, but I'd imagine they're open source 15:15 pianohacker I'd go for a major and minor arpeggio chord, but that may not be the personality you have in mind 15:18 owen pianohacker: Any idea if there is a way to browse those sounds on the web? 15:20 pianohacker owen: looking through packages.ubuntu.com right now 15:20 pianohacker there's this, looking for normal one http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic/sound-theme-freedesktop 15:21 pianohacker http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic/ubuntu-sounds 15:21 pianohacker both have .tar.gz's that you can look through 15:22 owen Thanks 15:23 owen FWIW, Firefox 3.5 and Safari 4 both autoplay wav files using the HTML5 <audio> tag 15:26 * owen would feel a certain satisfaction telling people they'd need to ditch Internet Explorer if they wanted audio feedback in Koha 15:27 pianohacker bug 42 - koha only works on standards-compliant browsers 15:27 munin` 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=42 normal, P2, ---, tonnesen@cmsd.bc.ca, RESOLVED FIXED, installer.pl could prompt user to send testing results in 15:27 pianohacker hah, thanks, munin 15:28 * jdavidb enjoys telling people they need to ditch IE for any reason whatever. 15:29 owen "IE causes scurvy!" 15:31 Ropuch ;> 15:31 Ropuch Shame on you to speak in public such obscene word like "IE"! 15:32 pianohacker owen: I was able to get results (if not consistent ones) using embed, no autoplay, and the exposed js methods of the embed tag 15:32 * owen likes the potential simplicity of using <audio src="beep.mp3" autoplay="true"> 15:33 pianohacker that is nice. if you're using ajax, no autoplay allows load-once and play-many 15:33 pianohacker not an issue with circulation, though 15:33 * pianohacker pokes gmcharlt 15:41 gmcharlt pianohacker: good enough - somebody can add IE support later if they want (though preferably *not* be having Koha need to start check user agent strings, which hasn't been necessary thus far) 15:42 pianohacker gmcharlt: most likely a note on the off 15:42 pianohacker -by-default syspref that sound alerts don't work in ie would be enough 15:43 gmcharlt sadly, there are enough users stuck with IE for the staff interface that *somebody* will have to deal with it at some point 15:43 pianohacker right 15:44 pianohacker though a lot of the stuck on ie people have ie 6 15:44 pianohacker which as far as I know, won't even be seen in the same room as koha's staff interface 15:45 gmcharlt actually, I think some people are (painfully) actively using IE6 with the Koha staff interface 15:45 pianohacker the modern martyrs of the library world 15:46 gmcharlt s/library world/world of anybody stuck with a hidebound or overly paranoid IT department/ 15:46 pianohacker lots of those to go around 15:47 pianohacker daily wtf needs a permanent entry on _that_ particular policy 15:48 owen_ pianohacker: Actually aside from some visual quirks IE6 manages with the staff client quite well in my limited experience. 15:49 pianohacker for which you are partly to blame :) 15:53 owen_ I have wondered if we should be including support for Google's Chrome Frame 15:54 pianohacker I myself am not too familiar with it, but have you taken a look at the mozilla community's response to it? 15:54 pianohacker saw something about it on webmonkey not too long ago 15:55 owen_ pianohacker: Only a cursory look 15:55 owen_ I did hear one comment that Mozilla folks would be opposed to it because it give IE users another reason not to switch 15:56 * pianohacker wonders if same it paranoia that has locked users into ie would allow something like chrome-frame in 15:56 pianohacker *if the same 15:56 owen That's my question too. 15:58 owen It's also worth noting that Chrome Frame doesn't help those who are stuck with IE6 because they're stuck on Win98 or Win2K: no Chrome support in those OSes 15:59 pianohacker right 15:59 * owen wonders if it's IE6 or Chrome Frame crashing at the moment 15:59 pianohacker seriously? that's irony in motion right there 16:03 jwagner Fines question for folks -- is there a list somewhere of what the various accountype codes in the accountlines table mean? Like F, FU, A, etc.? I found this page on the wiki, but it only lists the hardcoded codes, not what they mean: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:development:hard_coded&s[]=accounttype 16:05 pianohacker jwagner: not really, unfortunately. best way is to go to those places in the code that create the fines 16:05 jwagner Darn. Why isn't there ever an EASY answer with Koha? 16:05 pianohacker sorry 16:06 pianohacker fines especially :) 16:07 jwagner *grumble* Do I feel like stalking code right now, or going to lunch instead? Somehow, I think lunch may win that argument..... 16:07 pianohacker bah, who needs food when you have code 16:12 kf for f and fu nicole wrote something on koha.org 16:13 kf I think f is the first fine and fu accrued or something like that 16:13 kf http://koha.org/documentation/faq/what-do-the-codes-in-the-fines-table-stand-for/?searchterm=f%20fu 16:16 jwagner kf, thanks. I'll track it down after I get done resolving the current crisis/panic attack. Sigh. 16:18 * kf hands jwagner a cup of earl grey tea 16:25 jwagner Nope, I've already had my two cups for the day. But thanks :-) 16:25 owen jwagner: What do you do after you've used up your allotted 2? Nap? 16:27 jwagner owen, depends on if I'm working from home :-) 16:27 * owen usually needs the caffeine infusion after lunch rather than in the morning 16:29 jwagner Well, I work an early schedule -- usually in the office by 7:30 which means getting up at a perfectly horrible time. Just because I've made it into the office does NOT mean I'm awake! You've heard of sleepdriving? 16:29 owen So, labels_recon and biblibre-sopac have been integrated into HEAD, but we're still waiting on sysprefs_editor and biblibre's acquisitions stuff? 16:31 pianohacker owen: yes on sysprefs 16:31 pianohacker finally working on koha again after a school crunch 16:31 pianohacker to that will happen 16:31 pianohacker *so 16:34 jwagner owen, re your message to the list yesterday about OPAC detail page sorting by itemtype, changing to branch -- couple of questions. One is are you doing a patch, and the other is would it also fix the problem in the staff interface? 16:34 owen jwagner: I'd be happy to work on a patch, but so far the conversation is between only you and me! I'd love to hear someone else put in their vote 16:35 jwagner You mean I can't vote 57 times? 16:35 owen I hadn't planned on adding holdings table sorting to the staff client for the reason I stated yesterday: I'm concerned about performance for libraries with lots of items 16:36 owen jwagner: You'll have to at least use different voices. How's your Cookie Monster? 16:36 jwagner Cooooooookkkkkkkkkeeeeeeeee 16:36 kf I think sorting by serial enum could be interesting too 16:37 jwagner I'm trying to check, but I looked it up a week or two ago, and I think it already does sort by serial enum. Question of whether we could add branchcode in there too, I guess. 16:38 kf perhaps im just confused :) are we talking about default sorting or possible to sort? 16:38 owen default sorting 16:39 jwagner Sorry, not on serial enum. If I have the right place, it's accessiondate -- ORDER BY items.dateaccessioned 16:39 kf ok, just checked - its not sorted by serial enum 16:39 kf found a title where all other columns are the same 16:44 kf and I will leave work now (to test some things on my laptop at home... *sigh*) bbl, bye #koha 16:52 owen If I want to test biblibre-integration, how should I update my database? 16:55 owen "then run through the database update (in the case of labels_recon) or run the atomic update scripts (in case of biblibre-integration)" 16:55 owen atomic update scripts? 17:02 thd slef: I have appended my response to you to my previously written correction for confusion. 17:04 thd slef: I agree with you on every significant point except one which is unimportant, given the lack of alternatives. 17:11 thd gmcharlt: are you there for a moment? 17:12 gmcharlt thd: what's up? 17:13 thd gmcharlt: I hope that my new message has corrected any confusion caused by my previous message. 17:14 thd gmcharlt: I am curious about why the election window is so small. 17:16 gmcharlt not sure, slef picked it, but there's no sure formula for picking a length 17:16 thd gmcharlt: Does 9-11 October not risk having low turnout and defeating the effort. 17:16 gmcharlt regardless, if it turns out we get insufficient turnout, we can hold another vote or extend the voting period 17:16 thd I trust in slef's good judgement. 17:17 gmcharlt since the electorate is fixed, there's not a question of any risk of electorate padding 17:17 thd gmcharlt: Yes we can always extend the vote without being unfair. 17:17 thd Thanks gmcharlt 17:18 CGI333 hi i need to ask something about audit trails in koha 17:18 gmcharlt CGI333: go for it 17:18 CGI333 Audit trail 17:18 CGI333 The system should contain an audit trail that records the movement of files throughout the departments. It should allow the administrator to view who processed a specific file on a specific date. This audit trail should record the details of the movement (action, person, file reference code) and the operator details (username, date, time). 17:18 CGI333 is this supported in KOHA 17:21 CGI333 ? 17:23 gmcharlt CGI333: by file you mean digital resource file (image, movie, sound recording, etc?) 17:23 rhcl_busy Maybe I'm out of the loop, but what do you mean by "movement of files thoughout the departments", in regards to an ILS? 17:23 CGI333 by files I ment books 17:23 thd CG1333: Or do you mean printed files 17:24 thd CG1333: there is a circulation module. 17:24 CGI333 sorry but i took this from a clients request and they call books as files 17:24 CGI333 just books 17:25 gmcharlt Koha's circ system woudl provide a sufficient audit trail of circulation, IMO, but it sounds like from your wording that they may be talking about auditing internal processing of books 17:26 CGI333 basically they want sort of a report that shows the history of a book between a certain date (say last year) 17:26 CGI333 who loaned it, when did he loan it, etc 17:28 thd CG1333: You should be able to query for the circulation history by an identifier for the book. 17:29 thd CG1333: You may have to write a special SQL query or Perl script for that but it should not be difficult. 17:29 CGI333 oh ok that was what i was looking to confirm 17:30 CGI333 i knew it could but i wanted to confirm if it was implemented or it had to be done via a script 17:30 CGI333 thanks for your help 17:31 thd CG1333: It is probably not implemented in quite the way you ask. 17:31 thd CG1333: You have to be certain not to set the option for erasing the history. 17:44 chris morning 17:44 chris owen++ 17:48 ricardo Morning chris 17:50 ricardo chris: I'll probably have a new version of translation in the next few days... I have to solve an (apparent) merge conflict in Subversion. Let's see how that works 17:50 ricardo (Portuguese translation, I mean) 17:52 chris cool 17:56 hdl pianohacker: around ? 17:56 ricardo chris / hdl : Could you tell me in 17:56 brendan morning chris, ricardo hdl et. al 17:56 hdl hi all 17:57 hdl yes i can : "in" 17:57 hdl (silly joke) 17:57 ricardo hdl: LOL... Funny. I'm having problems rearranging the "Mibbit" and "git.koha.org" in Firefox :) (too many tabs...) 17:58 ricardo OK. Done... 17:58 ricardo Take 2 17:58 ricardo chris / hdl : Could you tell me in 17:58 ricardo http://git.koha.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=Koha;a=blob;f=misc/translator/po/pt-PT-i-staff-t-prog-v-3000000.po;hb=529af6e044729156b9589775d35e6e46bda9a22a 17:59 ricardo ... if lines 1842 to 1849 are translatable? Just by looking at them, I'm suspecting they're NOT (but I might be wrong) 18:00 hdl ricardo : you should not translate that. 18:00 hdl those are codes ;) 18:01 hdl pianohacker: i'll test your sys pref branch. 18:01 ricardo hdl: Right... That's what I thought. So, should I just leave the msgstr "blank", meaning with: msgstr "" ? 18:02 hdl yes 18:02 hdl pianohacker: How have you solved translation context ? 18:02 ricardo hdl: OK. In that case, it assumes the original "words" (from "msgid"), right? 18:03 hdl yes 18:03 hdl or you can just copy paste the string 18:03 ricardo hdl: OK. Thanks 18:04 owen hdl: can you tell me what I need to do to update my database to test biblibre_integration? 18:05 hdl owen : updatedatabase.pl + all the "atomicupdate" scripts in installer/data/mysql/atomicupdate 18:05 pianohacker hdl: I have not yet. just getting back to work on that 18:06 owen hdl: if I am not prompted to update the database via the installer, does that mean all I need are the atomicupdate scripts? 18:06 hdl I think so. 18:07 hdl db version should be 115 18:36 chris gah, 2 sick kids, 'working' from home today 18:37 wizzyrea booo 18:37 gmcharlt :( 18:38 wizzyrea are yours like mine, when they get sick all they want to do is lay on you 18:38 wizzyrea which can actually work out, if you have a laptop :P 18:39 gmcharlt depends if the kids are like my cats 18:40 gmcharlt if they are, better hope they're transparent so that you can see the screen ;) 18:40 chris hehe 18:40 chris yeah trying to get as close as possible 18:43 pianohacker enjoy it now, we become pains in the butt when we reach teenagerhood 18:43 pianohacker chris: sorry to hear they're sick, tho 18:44 cait_laptop good evening 18:44 ricardo chris: echoing pianohacker, I hope your kids get well really soon 18:44 ricardo Going home now. See you later! 18:44 pianohacker see ya 18:49 owen Anyone know of an example of the type of image referred to in Bug 2069? 18:49 munin` 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=2069 enhancement, P3, ---, oleonard@myacpl.org, NEW, Label Example Image 18:53 wizzyrea huj 18:53 wizzyrea hrm 18:58 chris heh 18:58 owen hunh? 19:00 pianohacker resembles something from a word processing program 19:01 pianohacker you could have a static image showing what each dimension was (simple diagram) 19:01 wizzyrea sec, looking in word for something like it 19:01 pianohacker or, even better, start with that diagram and update proportions as the user entered dimensions, with <canvas> 19:01 cait_laptop chris: problem: subject in emails and subjects in cataloging are different translation in German, but only on string in po - is there a way to split it? 19:02 chris not easily 19:02 cait_laptop chris: just an example, its a problem in differnt places 19:02 wizzyrea http://screencast.com/t/zbH8Bvag 19:02 wizzyrea presumably this would change if you told it different label size 19:03 cait_laptop cancel is another example - most of the time its abbrechen, but sometimes it should be stornieren 19:03 owen pianohacker: Thanks I'll get right on that :| 19:04 pianohacker owen: I'm just fantasizing. really, a static diagram of a label sheet with some labeled dimensions would be helpful for the bug 19:05 cait_laptop chris: hm. no easily is not good, will try to work around it as best as possible. 19:06 wizzyrea http://screencast.com/t/GrViib75p 19:06 wizzyrea actually never mind 19:06 wizzyrea that's probably not it at all 19:08 hdl pianohacker: I can see 3 branches prefs prefs-compact prefs-submit ? 19:08 hdl which one is test-able ? 19:09 pianohacker hdl: compact is a temporary branch, prefs is original work, and prefs-submit is the code as submitted to git.koha.org 19:10 pianohacker sysprefs_editor on git.koha.org is best for testing 19:10 pianohacker I'll push further changes to it from prefs_submit 19:11 hdl ok thanks. 19:49 richard hi 19:49 pianohacker hello richard 19:49 richard hiya pianohacker 19:50 hdl good night 19:50 hdl thx pianohacker 19:51 pianohacker see ya hdl 19:51 chris night hdl 19:57 pastebot "pianohacker" at 192.168.15.101 pasted "Possible easy solution to new syspref data file translation (YAML)" (27 lines) at http://paste.workbuffer.org/24 19:57 pianohacker any thoughts from devs? 19:58 gmcharlt pianohacker: what do you mean my storing preferences in a cookie? preference values? 19:59 pianohacker gmcharlt: that's cruft from pastebot 19:59 pianohacker everything from "plain text..." down is not part of the paste 20:00 gmcharlt ah, ok 20:00 gmcharlt at first glance, your proposal seems workable 20:00 pianohacker overuse_of_monospace-- 20:01 pianohacker got idea from http://search.cpan.org/~drtech/Locale-Maketext-Lexicon-0.77/lib/Locale/Maketext/Extract/Plugin/YAML.pm 20:04 pianohacker chris: any thoughts as one of the reluctant translation helpers? 20:09 chris reading now 20:11 chris looks like it'll work 20:11 chris thats how we would have to do the js too from what i can tell 20:11 chris if we dont want to try and implement something mad like tmpl_process3.pl 20:12 Jo morning all 20:12 cait_laptop good morning 20:13 chris pianohacker: i like it 20:15 chris_n owen about? 20:15 owen For another few minutes 20:15 chris_n re bug 2069... I might have an image you can use for that 20:15 munin` 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=2069 enhancement, P3, ---, oleonard@myacpl.org, NEW, Label Example Image 20:16 chris_n if you are interested I'll shoot it your way later this evening or tomorrow morning 20:17 owen Sure, I'd like to see it. I've been working something, but it's off the top of my head 20:18 chris_n @later tell gmcharlt to give his computer stronger coffee to drink so it will stay awake longer ;-) 20:18 munin` chris_n: The operation succeeded. 20:18 chris pianohacker: and the display code strips the _ out before handing it to the browser eh? 20:20 pianohacker chris: actually, I was thinking of making a generic module for handling YAML like this 20:21 chris that works even better then 20:21 pianohacker at least handling YAML::Syck's quirks and _ stripping 20:21 chris yep 20:21 pianohacker that way, preferences.pl wouldn't notice the difference 20:21 chris *nod* 20:22 chris and using xgettext.pl 20:22 chris that would be easily translatable 20:22 pianohacker yup. 20:23 chris i think for the js, we ahve 2 options 20:23 chris declare all the strings as variables 20:23 pianohacker (I've been putting of the task of making misc/translator/ understand the quirky .pref format for a while now, so this is better) 20:24 chris then write code to generate .po from that 20:24 chris or have a base one, with _ leading translatable strings 20:24 chris and have a process to strip that out 20:25 chris there seems to be no nice way of localizing js that i can find 20:26 pianohacker it would have to be slightly flexible, to handle both the YAML's simple _ and js's _('') and _(""), but I like the second approach better 20:27 pianohacker the first will make the js files much harder to read and change 20:29 chris yep 20:30 pianohacker the hardest part will be making xgettext and tmpl_process generic; tmpltokenizer is baked in pretty deep at the moment 20:32 pianohacker theoretically you could make a tokenizer that emulated the interface and output of tmpltokenizer, allowing that to stay in place 20:36 chris pianohacker: i want tmpl_process to go away 20:36 chris so will be working hard on my template toolkit stuff 20:36 chris (not before 3.2 of course) 20:37 pianohacker yeah, too many cycles of "we just need it do this one little thing more" 20:37 chris *nod* 20:37 pianohacker how does your template::toolkit stuff deal with translation? 20:47 chris https://wiki.mozilla.org/Bugzilla:L10n:Maketext#Template_Toolkit_syntax 20:47 chris copying the way the bugzilla dudes do it 20:49 chris basically localize on the fly from the .po files 20:49 chris rather than having different template sets 20:49 chris and through the magic of tt, cache the translated template 20:51 chris (preprocess where applicable too) 20:51 pianohacker hmm. that looks survivable 20:51 pianohacker we have gigantic .po's, though; how would you deal with first 20:51 chris and then my plan to release language packs 20:52 pianohacker -time lag 20:52 chris yeah, break them up 20:52 chris we have one giant one for the intranet now 20:52 pianohacker ahh, okay. By module, maybe? 20:52 chris that also can solve cait_laptop's problem 20:53 chris where the same string needs to be translated different in different templates 20:53 * cait_laptop starts reading 20:53 chris (different contexts) 20:53 chris also once we do this 20:53 pianohacker diff translations in different templates, or merely different modules? 20:54 chris it becuase easy to check translations inside context 20:54 chris becomes even 20:54 chris pianohacker: probably module .. there will be some trial and error 20:55 chris we can have .pot files too 20:56 chris and a terminology list 20:57 chris so that we can create .po files using the teminology list .. and then it would just be changing the ones that need to be different 20:57 chris rather than translating the same thing again and again 20:58 chris or we could have one big .po in pootle the way we do now 20:58 chris and have a script to split it (there are lots of these) 20:59 chris so in the release you get the split ones, and if you run from git, you can run the script to do it yourself 21:00 chris basically i havent decided yet :) 21:01 pianohacker all sounds good 21:01 chris my ultimate goal 21:01 chris is to be able to translate from within koha 21:02 chris and if you are rendering from the .tt + .po file 21:02 chris_n2 @later tell owen I added a suggested image to bug 2069 as well as a couple of other observations 21:02 munin` chris_n2: The operation succeeded. 21:02 cait_laptop I think translators would really like that - but sounds like a lot of work 21:02 chris that makes it a lot easier to see you translation right away 21:03 chris but a first step is 21:04 chris have my koha running using the .tt and .po files 21:04 chris so that when you change something in pootle it changes .po file .. and it shows up in my translation koha right away 21:05 chris that should make translation easier 21:05 chris or at least easier to check 21:07 cait_laptop chris++ 21:08 cait_laptop good night :) 21:11 pianohacker chris: last-gasp use of the tmpl_process architecture could be to accurately convert everything to .tt- 21:12 chris *nod* 21:12 chris there is a perl module to do that too, which seems to do an ok job 21:15 pianohacker bbl later, off to library and ice cream 21:17 chris nice 21:44 chris hmmwb gmcharlt 21:44 chris heh, wb even 21:57 CGI028 Hey all 21:57 CGI028 I've got a small question regarding items in Koha 21:57 CGI028 branch, barcode, itemtype) to the MARC data 21:58 CGI028 But when I view the biblio record 21:58 CGI028 so 4) 21:58 CGI028 Can anyone give me a quick hand? 22:01 chris sorry i dont understand your question 22:05 CGI028 One second, I may have figured it out myself =) 22:29 |Lupin| good evening, all 22:29 |Lupin| good day NZ 22:58 pianohacker hi |Lupin| 23:11 |Lupin| hey pianohacker 23:11 |Lupin| pianohacker: how are you ? 23:11 pianohacker alright 23:11 |Lupin| great 23:12 pianohacker typing one-handed due to broken fingers, but otherwise okay 23:12 pianohacker what are you up to? 23:14 |Lupin| pianohacker: what happened toyour fingers ? 23:14 |Lupin| pianohacker: just install 23:14 |Lupin| pianohacker: just installing a production Koha 23:14 pianohacker (bicycle accident) 23:15 pianohacker cool 23:15 |Lupin| pianohacker: oops 23:15 |Lupin| pianohacker: how long are you gonna be handicapped ? 23:15 pianohacker a few more weeks 23:16 pianohacker good opportunity to relearn touch typing 23:16 |Lupin| sure... 23:16 |Lupin| pianohacker: and to learn to appreciate the abilities one has with two hands... :-) 23:17 pianohacker no kidding on that one :) 23:17 pianohacker who's the production koha for? 23:17 * |Lupin| is wondering why cpan persists to place the .cpan directory in a user's home directory whereas cpan initialize is ran as root 23:17 |Lupin| pianohacker: my employer, the BrailleNet non-profit organisation 23:18 pianohacker |Lupin|: cpan is quite strange 23:18 pianohacker |Lupin|: nice! are you going live soon? 23:18 |Lupin| pianohacker: ok, but there is no reference to this directory in the environment for instance, so I'm really wonderign where it takes it from... 23:19 |Lupin| pianohacker: hmm, delicate question 23:19 pianohacker |Lupin|: are you running it with sudo? sudo can copy environment sometimes 23:19 pianohacker uh-oh 23:20 |Lupin| pianohacker: the developments are not finished yet. We need to adapt KOha so that our librarians can use it to upload files in addition to cataloguing, so I'm working on that now 23:20 pianohacker ahh 23:20 |Lupin| pianohacker: no I did a sdo su - 23:20 pianohacker any chance of public patches? That sounds really nice 23:20 |Lupin| pianohacker: and just looked at env's output 23:20 pianohacker hmm. 23:20 |Lupin| pianohacker: hmm... 23:22 |Lupin| pianohacker: not sure the KOha community is that interested... for ppl here cataloguing the files in Koha and storing them in a digital library management sstem should be two distinct actions, but for our use-case it is not very convenient 23:22 pianohacker I dunno. You could put it in a public git branch and see what people thought 23:23 |Lupin| pianohacker: sure 23:24 pianohacker If it wasn't too intrusive, could be useful for the occasional pdf someone wanted to put in their catalog 23:24 chris not so much should be distinct actions, but you should store digital documents in a digital document management system 23:24 chris wether you catalogue them in koha or not 23:24 chris otherwise you are just making your life difficult for the future 23:25 |Lupin| pianohacker: also, for the moment the integration is perhaps not as smooth as it could be. In particular, the part that transfers the files to the library management system should probably go into a plgin, but since this involves javascripting which is hard for me to do and test, I just replaced the additem script and template by a non-javscript version that uses only simple forms 23:25 pianohacker that additem two alone might actually be 23:25 pianohacker (sorry, hit enter by accident, nvm) 23:26 chris with a digital repository you get version control, full text searchign (where applicable) interface to remove/move the documents etc 23:26 |Lupin| chris: yeah I think in the long run this is what's going to happen. It's just that for the moment we have a home-made thing which hardly deserves the name of library management system but which we don't want to replace now. 23:27 chris so as long as the patches head towards allowing koha to work happily with a digital repository, like kete,fedora,greenstone etc 23:27 |Lupin| chris: the strategy which has been decided was to first replace the home-made web server by KOha (keeping the initial file server at that time), and then perhaps replace the file server by a genuine igital library management system 23:27 pianohacker brb dinner 23:27 chris if its a step along that path, then im sure everyone would like it 23:28 |Lupin| chris: even n its present state ? (no plugins...?) 23:29 |Lupin| chris: do you have an idea about the previously mentionned cpan issue, pls ? 23:29 chris if you put it in a public branch and keep it up to date, then its a step along a path, if you dont, its a dead end :) 23:29 * chris reads back 23:30 chris yeah sudo su - 23:30 chris isnt the same as 23:30 chris su - root 23:31 |Lupin| chris: what's the difference ? 23:32 |Lupin| chris: I didn't know the root password that's why I was forced to use sudo. Now I changed the root password so I can use sudo - root 23:33 chris basically youre environment doesnt change when you run sudo 23:33 chris your 23:34 chris at least it doesnt always 23:34 |Lupin| well I checked that and the environment looked to me as a genuine root environment 23:35 chris well its obviously not :) 23:35 chris or cpan would have no idea what user you actually were 23:35 |Lupin| chris: now when I run cpan initialize even as root, it seems it remembers some settings. For instance it doesn't ask me if it is ok to guess configuration values 23:35 |Lupin| (although the .cpan dir in the user's home dir has been removed) 23:35 chris did you su root 23:35 chris ? 23:36 |Lupin| yes 23:36 |Lupin| I su - root 23:36 chris and is there a .cpan dir in /root now? 23:37 |Lupin| chris: no 23:37 chris no idea then 23:37 |Lupin| chris: does cpan use some other configuraiton files where it could store settings or so ? 23:37 chris yes 23:38 |Lupin| chris: where are they ? 23:38 chris no idea on your system 23:38 |Lupin| chris: looked in /etc but couldn't find anything whose name contained cpan 23:38 |Lupin| chris: it's a freshly installd debian lenny 23:38 chris most of it is the module 23:39 chris and is overriden by the settings in .cpan 23:39 |Lupin| when I run cpan as root it imediately creates a directory under the user's home and asks whether it is OK to connect to the iinernet 23:41 chris what user? 23:42 |Lupin| I'm sorry ? 23:42 |Lupin| ah, 23:42 chris if you are running as root, then root is your user 23:42 |Lupin| my non-root user's account 23:43 |Lupin| but I just examined the output of set and env 23:43 |Lupin| and they don't mention this directory 23:43 |Lupin| except in OLDPWD 23:44 |Lupin| chris: yeah UID=0, USER=root, LOGNAME=root, HOME=/root 23:44 |Lupin| everything seems correct 23:44 chris what directory are you in when you run cpan 23:44 |Lupin| /root 23:44 chris weird 23:45 chris works fine for me 23:45 chris root@chris-laptop:/# ls -la /root/ 23:45 chris drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2009-10-09 12:42 .cpan 23:45 |Lupin| I'm gonna strace the command and have a look to which files it opens... 23:45 chris (just tried it on my laptop) 23:47 |Lupin| chris: ok 23:48 chris there must be some remnant of it been run before that it remembers 23:51 |Lupin| yeah 23:51 |Lupin| I think it has a debugging mode 23:51 |Lupin| if looking at the list of files it opens does not succeed, I'll turn to that 23:52 |Lupin| /etc/perl/CPAN/Config.pm 23:52 |Lupin| hmm 23:52 |Lupin| didn't think about an pper-case name, grrr 23:53 |Lupin| 'build_dir' => q[/home/dirnat/hinderer/.cpan/build], 23:53 |Lupin| here it is... 23:57 chris :) 23:58 * |Lupin| promises to use -iname rather than -name when running find..