Time Nick Message
23:58 * |Lupin| promises to use -iname rather than -name when running find..
23:57 chris :)
23:53 |Lupin| here it is...
23:53 |Lupin| 'build_dir' => q[/home/dirnat/hinderer/.cpan/build],
23:52 |Lupin| didn't think about an pper-case name, grrr
23:52 |Lupin| hmm
23:52 |Lupin| /etc/perl/CPAN/Config.pm
23:51 |Lupin| if looking at the list of files it opens does not succeed, I'll turn to that
23:51 |Lupin| I think it has a debugging mode
23:51 |Lupin| yeah
23:48 chris there must be some remnant of it been run before that it remembers
23:47 |Lupin| chris: ok
23:45 chris (just tried it on my laptop)
23:45 |Lupin| I'm gonna strace the command and have a look to which files it opens...
23:45 chris drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2009-10-09 12:42 .cpan
23:45 chris root@chris-laptop:/# ls -la /root/
23:45 chris works fine for me
23:44 chris weird
23:44 |Lupin| /root
23:44 chris what directory are you in when you run cpan
23:44 |Lupin| everything seems correct
23:44 |Lupin| chris: yeah UID=0, USER=root, LOGNAME=root, HOME=/root
23:43 |Lupin| except in OLDPWD
23:43 |Lupin| and they don't mention this directory
23:43 |Lupin| but I just examined the output of set and env
23:42 |Lupin| my non-root user's account
23:42 chris if you are running as root, then root is your user
23:42 |Lupin| ah,
23:42 |Lupin| I'm sorry ?
23:41 chris what user?
23:39 |Lupin| when I run cpan as root it imediately creates a directory under the user's home and asks whether it is OK to connect to the iinernet
23:39 chris and is overriden by the settings in .cpan
23:38 chris most of it is the module
23:38 |Lupin| chris: it's a freshly installd debian lenny
23:38 |Lupin| chris: looked in /etc but couldn't find anything whose name contained cpan
23:38 chris no idea on your system
23:38 |Lupin| chris: where are they ?
23:37 chris yes
23:37 |Lupin| chris: does cpan use some other configuraiton files where it could store settings or so ?
23:37 chris no idea then
23:37 |Lupin| chris: no
23:36 chris and is there a .cpan dir in /root now?
23:36 |Lupin| I su - root
23:36 |Lupin| yes
23:35 chris ?
23:35 chris did you su root
23:35 |Lupin| (although the .cpan dir in the user's home dir has been removed)
23:35 |Lupin| chris: now when I run cpan initialize even as root, it seems it remembers some settings. For instance it doesn't ask me if it is ok to guess configuration values
23:35 chris or cpan would have no idea what user you actually were
23:35 chris well its obviously not :)
23:34 |Lupin| well I checked that and the environment looked to me as a genuine root environment
23:34 chris at least it doesnt always
23:33 chris your
23:33 chris basically youre environment doesnt change when you run sudo
23:32 |Lupin| chris: I didn't know the root password that's why I was forced to use sudo. Now I changed the root password so I can use sudo - root
23:31 |Lupin| chris: what's the difference ?
23:30 chris su - root
23:30 chris isnt the same as
23:30 chris yeah sudo su -
23:29 * chris reads back
23:29 chris if you put it in a public branch and keep it up to date, then its a step along a path, if you dont, its a dead end :)
23:29 |Lupin| chris: do you have an idea about the previously mentionned cpan issue, pls ?
23:28 |Lupin| chris: even n its present state ? (no plugins...?)
23:27 chris if its a step along that path, then im sure everyone would like it
23:27 pianohacker brb dinner
23:27 |Lupin| chris: the strategy which has been decided was to first replace the home-made web server by KOha (keeping the initial file server at that time), and then perhaps replace the file server by a genuine igital library management system
23:27 chris so as long as the patches head towards allowing koha to work happily with a digital repository, like kete,fedora,greenstone etc
23:26 |Lupin| chris: yeah I think in the long run this is what's going to happen. It's just that for the moment we have a home-made thing which hardly deserves the name of library management system but which we don't want to replace now.
23:26 chris with a digital repository you get version control, full text searchign (where applicable) interface to remove/move the documents etc
23:25 pianohacker (sorry, hit enter by accident, nvm)
23:25 pianohacker that additem two alone might actually be
23:25 |Lupin| pianohacker: also, for the moment the integration is perhaps not as smooth as it could be. In particular, the part that transfers the files to the library management system should probably go into a plgin, but since this involves javascripting which is hard for me to do and test, I just replaced the additem script and template by a non-javscript version that uses only simple forms
23:24 chris otherwise you are just making your life difficult for the future
23:24 chris wether you catalogue them in koha or not
23:24 chris not so much should be distinct actions, but you should store digital documents in a digital document management system
23:24 pianohacker If it wasn't too intrusive, could be useful for the occasional pdf someone wanted to put in their catalog
23:23 |Lupin| pianohacker: sure
23:22 pianohacker I dunno. You could put it in a public git branch and see what people thought
23:22 |Lupin| pianohacker: not sure the KOha community is that interested... for ppl here cataloguing the files in Koha and storing them in a digital library management sstem should be two distinct actions, but for our use-case it is not very convenient
23:20 |Lupin| pianohacker: hmm...
23:20 pianohacker hmm.
23:20 |Lupin| pianohacker: and just looked at env's output
23:20 pianohacker any chance of public patches? That sounds really nice
23:20 |Lupin| pianohacker: no I did a sdo su -
23:20 pianohacker ahh
23:20 |Lupin| pianohacker: the developments are not finished yet. We need to adapt KOha so that our librarians can use it to upload files in addition to cataloguing, so I'm working on that now
23:19 pianohacker uh-oh
23:19 pianohacker |Lupin|: are you running it with sudo? sudo can copy environment sometimes
23:19 |Lupin| pianohacker: hmm, delicate question
23:18 |Lupin| pianohacker: ok, but there is no reference to this directory in the environment for instance, so I'm really wonderign where it takes it from...
23:18 pianohacker |Lupin|: nice! are you going live soon?
23:18 pianohacker |Lupin|: cpan is quite strange
23:17 |Lupin| pianohacker: my employer, the BrailleNet non-profit organisation
23:17 * |Lupin| is wondering why cpan persists to place the .cpan directory in a user's home directory whereas cpan initialize is ran as root
23:17 pianohacker who's the production koha for?
23:17 pianohacker no kidding on that one :)
23:16 |Lupin| pianohacker: and to learn to appreciate the abilities one has with two hands... :-)
23:16 |Lupin| sure...
23:16 pianohacker good opportunity to relearn touch typing
23:15 pianohacker a few more weeks
23:15 |Lupin| pianohacker: how long are you gonna be handicapped ?
23:15 |Lupin| pianohacker: oops
23:15 pianohacker cool
23:14 pianohacker (bicycle accident)
23:14 |Lupin| pianohacker: just installing a production Koha
23:14 |Lupin| pianohacker: just install
23:14 |Lupin| pianohacker: what happened toyour fingers ?
23:12 pianohacker what are you up to?
23:12 pianohacker typing one-handed due to broken fingers, but otherwise okay
23:11 |Lupin| great
23:11 pianohacker alright
23:11 |Lupin| pianohacker: how are you ?
23:11 |Lupin| hey pianohacker
22:58 pianohacker hi |Lupin|
22:29 |Lupin| good day NZ
22:29 |Lupin| good evening, all
22:05 CGI028 One second, I may have figured it out myself =)
22:01 chris sorry i dont understand your question
21:58 CGI028 Can anyone give me a quick hand?
21:58 CGI028 so 4)
21:58 CGI028 But when I view the biblio record
21:57 CGI028 branch, barcode, itemtype) to the MARC data
21:57 CGI028 I've got a small question regarding items in Koha
21:57 CGI028 Hey all
21:44 chris heh, wb even
21:44 chris hmmwb gmcharlt
21:17 chris nice
21:15 pianohacker bbl later, off to library and ice cream
21:12 chris there is a perl module to do that too, which seems to do an ok job
21:12 chris *nod*
21:11 pianohacker chris: last-gasp use of the tmpl_process architecture could be to accurately convert everything to .tt-
21:08 cait_laptop good night :)
21:07 cait_laptop chris++
21:05 chris or at least easier to check
21:05 chris that should make translation easier
21:04 chris so that when you change something in pootle it changes .po file .. and it shows up in my translation koha right away
21:04 chris have my koha running using the .tt and .po files
21:03 chris but a first step is
21:02 chris that makes it a lot easier to see you translation right away
21:02 cait_laptop I think translators would really like that - but sounds like a lot of work
21:02 munin` chris_n2: The operation succeeded.
21:02 chris_n2 @later tell owen I added a suggested image to bug 2069 as well as a couple of other observations
21:02 chris and if you are rendering from the .tt + .po file
21:01 chris is to be able to translate from within koha
21:01 chris my ultimate goal
21:01 pianohacker all sounds good
21:00 chris basically i havent decided yet :)
20:59 chris so in the release you get the split ones, and if you run from git, you can run the script to do it yourself
20:58 chris and have a script to split it (there are lots of these)
20:58 chris or we could have one big .po in pootle the way we do now
20:57 chris rather than translating the same thing again and again
20:57 chris so that we can create .po files using the teminology list .. and then it would just be changing the ones that need to be different
20:56 chris and a terminology list
20:55 chris we can have .pot files too
20:54 chris pianohacker: probably module .. there will be some trial and error
20:54 chris becomes even
20:54 chris it becuase easy to check translations inside context
20:53 pianohacker diff translations in different templates, or merely different modules?
20:53 chris also once we do this
20:53 chris (different contexts)
20:53 * cait_laptop starts reading
20:53 chris where the same string needs to be translated different in different templates
20:52 chris that also can solve cait_laptop's problem
20:52 pianohacker ahh, okay. By module, maybe?
20:52 chris we have one giant one for the intranet now
20:52 chris yeah, break them up
20:52 pianohacker -time lag
20:51 chris and then my plan to release language packs
20:51 pianohacker we have gigantic .po's, though; how would you deal with first
20:51 pianohacker hmm. that looks survivable
20:51 chris (preprocess where applicable too)
20:49 chris and through the magic of tt, cache the translated template
20:49 chris rather than having different template sets
20:49 chris basically localize on the fly from the .po files
20:47 chris copying the way the bugzilla dudes do it
20:47 chris https://wiki.mozilla.org/Bugzilla:L10n:Maketext#Template_Toolkit_syntax
20:37 pianohacker how does your template::toolkit stuff deal with translation?
20:37 chris *nod*
20:37 pianohacker yeah, too many cycles of "we just need it do this one little thing more"
20:36 chris (not before 3.2 of course)
20:36 chris so will be working hard on my template toolkit stuff
20:36 chris pianohacker: i want tmpl_process to go away
20:32 pianohacker theoretically you could make a tokenizer that emulated the interface and output of tmpltokenizer, allowing that to stay in place
20:30 pianohacker the hardest part will be making xgettext and tmpl_process generic; tmpltokenizer is baked in pretty deep at the moment
20:29 chris yep
20:27 pianohacker the first will make the js files much harder to read and change
20:26 pianohacker it would have to be slightly flexible, to handle both the YAML's simple _ and js's _('') and _(""), but I like the second approach better
20:25 chris there seems to be no nice way of localizing js that i can find
20:24 chris and have a process to strip that out
20:24 chris or have a base one, with _ leading translatable strings
20:24 chris then write code to generate .po from that
20:23 pianohacker (I've been putting of the task of making misc/translator/ understand the quirky .pref format for a while now, so this is better)
20:23 chris declare all the strings as variables
20:23 chris i think for the js, we ahve 2 options
20:22 pianohacker yup.
20:22 chris that would be easily translatable
20:22 chris and using xgettext.pl
20:21 chris *nod*
20:21 pianohacker that way, preferences.pl wouldn't notice the difference
20:21 chris yep
20:21 pianohacker at least handling YAML::Syck's quirks and _ stripping
20:21 chris that works even better then
20:20 pianohacker chris: actually, I was thinking of making a generic module for handling YAML like this
20:18 chris pianohacker: and the display code strips the _ out before handing it to the browser eh?
20:18 munin` chris_n: The operation succeeded.
20:18 chris_n @later tell gmcharlt to give his computer stronger coffee to drink so it will stay awake longer ;-)
20:17 owen Sure, I'd like to see it. I've been working something, but it's off the top of my head
20:16 chris_n if you are interested I'll shoot it your way later this evening or tomorrow morning
20:15 munin` 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=2069 enhancement, P3, ---, oleonard@myacpl.org, NEW, Label Example Image
20:15 chris_n re bug 2069... I might have an image you can use for that
20:15 owen For another few minutes
20:15 chris_n owen about?
20:13 chris pianohacker: i like it
20:12 cait_laptop good morning
20:12 Jo morning all
20:11 chris if we dont want to try and implement something mad like tmpl_process3.pl
20:11 chris thats how we would have to do the js too from what i can tell
20:11 chris looks like it'll work
20:09 chris reading now
20:04 pianohacker chris: any thoughts as one of the reluctant translation helpers?
20:01 pianohacker got idea from http://search.cpan.org/~drtech/Locale-Maketext-Lexicon-0.77/lib/Locale/Maketext/Extract/Plugin/YAML.pm
20:00 pianohacker overuse_of_monospace--
20:00 gmcharlt at first glance, your proposal seems workable
20:00 gmcharlt ah, ok
19:59 pianohacker everything from "plain text..." down is not part of the paste
19:59 pianohacker gmcharlt: that's cruft from pastebot
19:58 gmcharlt pianohacker: what do you mean my storing preferences in a cookie? preference values?
19:57 pianohacker any thoughts from devs?
19:57 pastebot "pianohacker" at 192.168.15.101 pasted "Possible easy solution to new syspref data file translation (YAML)" (27 lines) at http://paste.workbuffer.org/24
19:51 chris night hdl
19:51 pianohacker see ya hdl
19:50 hdl thx pianohacker
19:50 hdl good night
19:49 richard hiya pianohacker
19:49 pianohacker hello richard
19:49 richard hi
19:11 hdl ok thanks.
19:10 pianohacker I'll push further changes to it from prefs_submit
19:10 pianohacker sysprefs_editor on git.koha.org is best for testing
19:09 pianohacker hdl: compact is a temporary branch, prefs is original work, and prefs-submit is the code as submitted to git.koha.org
19:08 hdl which one is test-able ?
19:08 hdl pianohacker: I can see 3 branches prefs prefs-compact prefs-submit ?
19:06 wizzyrea that's probably not it at all
19:06 wizzyrea actually never mind
19:06 wizzyrea http://screencast.com/t/GrViib75p
19:05 cait_laptop chris: hm. no easily is not good, will try to work around it as best as possible.
19:04 pianohacker owen: I'm just fantasizing. really, a static diagram of a label sheet with some labeled dimensions would be helpful for the bug
19:03 owen pianohacker: Thanks I'll get right on that :|
19:03 cait_laptop cancel is another example - most of the time its abbrechen, but sometimes it should be stornieren
19:02 wizzyrea presumably this would change if you told it different label size
19:02 wizzyrea http://screencast.com/t/zbH8Bvag
19:02 cait_laptop chris: just an example, its a problem in differnt places
19:02 chris not easily
19:01 cait_laptop chris: problem: subject in emails and subjects in cataloging are different translation in German, but only on string in po - is there a way to split it?
19:01 pianohacker or, even better, start with that diagram and update proportions as the user entered dimensions, with <canvas>
19:01 wizzyrea sec, looking in word for something like it
19:01 pianohacker you could have a static image showing what each dimension was (simple diagram)
19:00 pianohacker resembles something from a word processing program
18:58 owen hunh?
18:58 chris heh
18:53 wizzyrea hrm
18:53 wizzyrea huj
18:49 munin` 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=2069 enhancement, P3, ---, oleonard@myacpl.org, NEW, Label Example Image
18:49 owen Anyone know of an example of the type of image referred to in Bug 2069?
18:44 pianohacker see ya
18:44 ricardo Going home now. See you later!
18:44 ricardo chris: echoing pianohacker, I hope your kids get well really soon
18:44 cait_laptop good evening
18:43 pianohacker chris: sorry to hear they're sick, tho
18:43 pianohacker enjoy it now, we become pains in the butt when we reach teenagerhood
18:40 chris yeah trying to get as close as possible
18:40 chris hehe
18:40 gmcharlt if they are, better hope they're transparent so that you can see the screen ;)
18:39 gmcharlt depends if the kids are like my cats
18:38 wizzyrea which can actually work out, if you have a laptop :P
18:38 wizzyrea are yours like mine, when they get sick all they want to do is lay on you
18:37 gmcharlt :(
18:37 wizzyrea booo
18:36 chris gah, 2 sick kids, 'working' from home today
18:07 hdl db version should be 115
18:06 hdl I think so.
18:06 owen hdl: if I am not prompted to update the database via the installer, does that mean all I need are the atomicupdate scripts?
18:05 pianohacker hdl: I have not yet. just getting back to work on that
18:05 hdl owen : updatedatabase.pl + all the "atomicupdate" scripts in installer/data/mysql/atomicupdate
18:04 owen hdl: can you tell me what I need to do to update my database to test biblibre_integration?
18:03 ricardo hdl: OK. Thanks
18:03 hdl or you can just copy paste the string
18:03 hdl yes
18:02 ricardo hdl: OK. In that case, it assumes the original "words" (from "msgid"), right?
18:02 hdl pianohacker: How have you solved translation context ?
18:02 hdl yes
18:01 ricardo hdl: Right... That's what I thought. So, should I just leave the msgstr "blank", meaning with: msgstr "" ?
18:01 hdl pianohacker: i'll test your sys pref branch.
18:00 hdl those are codes ;)
18:00 hdl ricardo : you should not translate that.
17:59 ricardo ... if lines 1842 to 1849 are translatable? Just by looking at them, I'm suspecting they're NOT (but I might be wrong)
17:58 ricardo http://git.koha.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=Koha;a=blob;f=misc/translator/po/pt-PT-i-staff-t-prog-v-3000000.po;hb=529af6e044729156b9589775d35e6e46bda9a22a
17:58 ricardo chris / hdl : Could you tell me in
17:58 ricardo Take 2
17:58 ricardo OK. Done...
17:57 ricardo hdl: LOL... Funny. I'm having problems rearranging the "Mibbit" and "git.koha.org" in Firefox :) (too many tabs...)
17:57 hdl (silly joke)
17:57 hdl yes i can : "in"
17:56 hdl hi all
17:56 brendan morning chris, ricardo hdl et. al
17:56 ricardo chris / hdl : Could you tell me in
17:56 hdl pianohacker: around ?
17:52 chris cool
17:50 ricardo (Portuguese translation, I mean)
17:50 ricardo chris: I'll probably have a new version of translation in the next few days... I have to solve an (apparent) merge conflict in Subversion. Let's see how that works
17:48 ricardo Morning chris
17:44 chris owen++
17:44 chris morning
17:31 thd CG1333: You have to be certain not to set the option for erasing the history.
17:31 thd CG1333: It is probably not implemented in quite the way you ask.
17:30 CGI333 thanks for your help
17:30 CGI333 i knew it could but i wanted to confirm if it was implemented or it had to be done via a script
17:29 CGI333 oh ok that was what i was looking to confirm
17:29 thd CG1333: You may have to write a special SQL query or Perl script for that but it should not be difficult.
17:28 thd CG1333: You should be able to query for the circulation history by an identifier for the book.
17:26 CGI333 who loaned it, when did he loan it, etc
17:26 CGI333 basically they want sort of a report that shows the history of a book between a certain date (say last year)
17:25 gmcharlt Koha's circ system woudl provide a sufficient audit trail of circulation, IMO, but it sounds like from your wording that they may be talking about auditing internal processing of books
17:24 CGI333 just books
17:24 CGI333 sorry but i took this from a clients request and they call books as files
17:24 thd CG1333: there is a circulation module.
17:23 thd CG1333: Or do you mean printed files
17:23 CGI333 by files I ment books
17:23 rhcl_busy Maybe I'm out of the loop, but what do you mean by "movement of files thoughout the departments", in regards to an ILS?
17:23 gmcharlt CGI333: by file you mean digital resource file (image, movie, sound recording, etc?)
17:21 CGI333 ?
17:18 CGI333 is this supported in KOHA
17:18 CGI333 The system should contain an audit trail that records the movement of files throughout the departments. It should allow the administrator to view who processed a specific file on a specific date. This audit trail should record the details of the movement (action, person, file reference code) and the operator details (username, date, time).
17:18 CGI333 Audit trail
17:18 gmcharlt CGI333: go for it
17:18 CGI333 hi i need to ask something about audit trails in koha
17:17 thd Thanks gmcharlt
17:17 thd gmcharlt: Yes we can always extend the vote without being unfair.
17:17 gmcharlt since the electorate is fixed, there's not a question of any risk of electorate padding
17:16 thd I trust in slef's good judgement.
17:16 gmcharlt regardless, if it turns out we get insufficient turnout, we can hold another vote or extend the voting period
17:16 thd gmcharlt: Does 9-11 October not risk having low turnout and defeating the effort.
17:16 gmcharlt not sure, slef picked it, but there's no sure formula for picking a length
17:14 thd gmcharlt: I am curious about why the election window is so small.
17:13 thd gmcharlt: I hope that my new message has corrected any confusion caused by my previous message.
17:12 gmcharlt thd: what's up?
17:11 thd gmcharlt: are you there for a moment?
17:04 thd slef: I agree with you on every significant point except one which is unimportant, given the lack of alternatives.
17:02 thd slef: I have appended my response to you to my previously written correction for confusion.
16:55 owen atomic update scripts?
16:55 owen "then run through the database update (in the case of labels_recon) or run the atomic update scripts (in case of biblibre-integration)"
16:52 owen If I want to test biblibre-integration, how should I update my database?
16:44 kf and I will leave work now (to test some things on my laptop at home... *sigh*) bbl, bye #koha
16:39 kf found a title where all other columns are the same
16:39 kf ok, just checked - its not sorted by serial enum
16:39 jwagner Sorry, not on serial enum. If I have the right place, it's accessiondate -- ORDER BY items.dateaccessioned
16:38 owen default sorting
16:38 kf perhaps im just confused :) are we talking about default sorting or possible to sort?
16:37 jwagner I'm trying to check, but I looked it up a week or two ago, and I think it already does sort by serial enum. Question of whether we could add branchcode in there too, I guess.
16:36 kf I think sorting by serial enum could be interesting too
16:36 jwagner Cooooooookkkkkkkkkeeeeeeeee
16:36 owen jwagner: You'll have to at least use different voices. How's your Cookie Monster?
16:35 owen I hadn't planned on adding holdings table sorting to the staff client for the reason I stated yesterday: I'm concerned about performance for libraries with lots of items
16:35 jwagner You mean I can't vote 57 times?
16:34 owen jwagner: I'd be happy to work on a patch, but so far the conversation is between only you and me! I'd love to hear someone else put in their vote
16:34 jwagner owen, re your message to the list yesterday about OPAC detail page sorting by itemtype, changing to branch -- couple of questions. One is are you doing a patch, and the other is would it also fix the problem in the staff interface?
16:31 pianohacker *so
16:31 pianohacker to that will happen
16:31 pianohacker finally working on koha again after a school crunch
16:31 pianohacker owen: yes on sysprefs
16:29 owen So, labels_recon and biblibre-sopac have been integrated into HEAD, but we're still waiting on sysprefs_editor and biblibre's acquisitions stuff?
16:29 jwagner Well, I work an early schedule -- usually in the office by 7:30 which means getting up at a perfectly horrible time. Just because I've made it into the office does NOT mean I'm awake! You've heard of sleepdriving?
16:27 * owen usually needs the caffeine infusion after lunch rather than in the morning
16:27 jwagner owen, depends on if I'm working from home :-)
16:25 owen jwagner: What do you do after you've used up your allotted 2? Nap?
16:25 jwagner Nope, I've already had my two cups for the day. But thanks :-)
16:18 * kf hands jwagner a cup of earl grey tea
16:16 jwagner kf, thanks. I'll track it down after I get done resolving the current crisis/panic attack. Sigh.
16:13 kf http://koha.org/documentation/faq/what-do-the-codes-in-the-fines-table-stand-for/?searchterm=f%20fu
16:13 kf I think f is the first fine and fu accrued or something like that
16:12 kf for f and fu nicole wrote something on koha.org
16:07 pianohacker bah, who needs food when you have code
16:07 jwagner *grumble* Do I feel like stalking code right now, or going to lunch instead? Somehow, I think lunch may win that argument.....
16:06 pianohacker fines especially :)
16:05 pianohacker sorry
16:05 jwagner Darn. Why isn't there ever an EASY answer with Koha?
16:05 pianohacker jwagner: not really, unfortunately. best way is to go to those places in the code that create the fines
16:03 jwagner Fines question for folks -- is there a list somewhere of what the various accountype codes in the accountlines table mean? Like F, FU, A, etc.? I found this page on the wiki, but it only lists the hardcoded codes, not what they mean: http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=en:development:hard_coded&s[]=accounttype
15:59 pianohacker seriously? that's irony in motion right there
15:59 * owen wonders if it's IE6 or Chrome Frame crashing at the moment
15:59 pianohacker right
15:58 owen It's also worth noting that Chrome Frame doesn't help those who are stuck with IE6 because they're stuck on Win98 or Win2K: no Chrome support in those OSes
15:56 owen That's my question too.
15:56 pianohacker *if the same
15:56 * pianohacker wonders if same it paranoia that has locked users into ie would allow something like chrome-frame in
15:55 owen_ I did hear one comment that Mozilla folks would be opposed to it because it give IE users another reason not to switch
15:55 owen_ pianohacker: Only a cursory look
15:54 pianohacker saw something about it on webmonkey not too long ago
15:54 pianohacker I myself am not too familiar with it, but have you taken a look at the mozilla community's response to it?
15:53 owen_ I have wondered if we should be including support for Google's Chrome Frame
15:49 pianohacker for which you are partly to blame :)
15:48 owen_ pianohacker: Actually aside from some visual quirks IE6 manages with the staff client quite well in my limited experience.
15:47 pianohacker daily wtf needs a permanent entry on _that_ particular policy
15:46 pianohacker lots of those to go around
15:46 gmcharlt s/library world/world of anybody stuck with a hidebound or overly paranoid IT department/
15:45 pianohacker the modern martyrs of the library world
15:45 gmcharlt actually, I think some people are (painfully) actively using IE6 with the Koha staff interface
15:44 pianohacker which as far as I know, won't even be seen in the same room as koha's staff interface
15:44 pianohacker though a lot of the stuck on ie people have ie 6
15:43 pianohacker right
15:43 gmcharlt sadly, there are enough users stuck with IE for the staff interface that *somebody* will have to deal with it at some point
15:42 pianohacker -by-default syspref that sound alerts don't work in ie would be enough
15:42 pianohacker gmcharlt: most likely a note on the off
15:41 gmcharlt pianohacker: good enough - somebody can add IE support later if they want (though preferably *not* be having Koha need to start check user agent strings, which hasn't been necessary thus far)
15:33 * pianohacker pokes gmcharlt
15:33 pianohacker not an issue with circulation, though
15:33 pianohacker that is nice. if you're using ajax, no autoplay allows load-once and play-many
15:32 * owen likes the potential simplicity of using <audio src="beep.mp3" autoplay="true">
15:32 pianohacker owen: I was able to get results (if not consistent ones) using embed, no autoplay, and the exposed js methods of the embed tag
15:31 Ropuch Shame on you to speak in public such obscene word like "IE"!
15:31 Ropuch ;>
15:29 owen "IE causes scurvy!"
15:28 * jdavidb enjoys telling people they need to ditch IE for any reason whatever.
15:27 pianohacker hah, thanks, munin
15:27 munin` 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=42 normal, P2, ---, tonnesen@cmsd.bc.ca, RESOLVED FIXED, installer.pl could prompt user to send testing results in
15:27 pianohacker bug 42 - koha only works on standards-compliant browsers
15:26 * owen would feel a certain satisfaction telling people they'd need to ditch Internet Explorer if they wanted audio feedback in Koha
15:23 owen FWIW, Firefox 3.5 and Safari 4 both autoplay wav files using the HTML5 <audio> tag
15:22 owen Thanks
15:21 pianohacker both have .tar.gz's that you can look through
15:21 pianohacker http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic/ubuntu-sounds
15:20 pianohacker there's this, looking for normal one http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic/sound-theme-freedesktop
15:20 pianohacker owen: looking through packages.ubuntu.com right now
15:18 owen pianohacker: Any idea if there is a way to browse those sounds on the web?
15:15 pianohacker I'd go for a major and minor arpeggio chord, but that may not be the personality you have in mind
15:14 pianohacker it was internal, so I didn't check the license, but I'd imagine they're open source
15:14 owen pianohacker: I was just thinking there must be such a thing
15:13 pianohacker owen: I used the ubuntu sound set for a similar project
15:12 hdl a sound like ouch ;)
15:12 jdavidb Like my GPS, which speaks NZ English, since the USian voices in it are *boring.*
15:12 * owen is really just looking for a couple of good beeps
15:11 owen it would be funny if you could load different personalities for your audio feedback
15:11 jdavidb I bet she could, owen. Teens are good at expressing their opinion of adults' failure.
15:10 owen jdavidb: Can she make a noise that expresses the idea "Your checkout has failed?"
15:10 * jdavidb pinches his daughter, and records the eeps and squeaks she makes, sticks a CC license on 'em, and sends them to owen.
15:09 thd slef: I was about to send a correcting message
15:08 slef thd: reply emailed to list
15:07 ricardo Hi tomascohen :)
15:07 tomascohen ricardo++
15:06 ricardo Sorry, couldn't resist ;-)
15:06 munin` ricardo: The operation succeeded. Quote #40 added.
15:06 ricardo @quote add <tomascohen> hi everyone, just wanted to say I'm happy i managed to bypass the firewall to be with you *** tomascohen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
15:03 * owen is looking for some nice open-source-licensed beeps
14:59 davi
14:58 kf hi tomascohen
14:48 hdl hi tomascohen
14:48 owen Hi tomascohen
14:47 tomascohen :-D
14:47 tomascohen hi everyone, just wanted to say I'm happy i managed to bypass the firewall to be with you
14:43 gmcharlt owen: I believe so, in theory
14:42 * owen wonders if HTML5 has improved our options
14:41 * owen sees Flash-based audio stuff in mhafen's tree
14:41 thd slef: I would use the word 'software' instead of "download" for clarity but there is no point of confusion anymore.
14:39 slef http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=relicensing updated
14:37 gmcharlt as I recall, main issue is making sure that sounds are not tied to requiring Flash, but it's been a while
14:37 thd slef: yes, the way you last put it seems fine
14:37 gmcharlt there's something in Michael Hafen's tree, I think
14:37 thd slf: yes
14:37 owen Is there a patch floating around for sounds-on-checkout?
14:36 gmcharlt owen: yes
14:36 owen gmcharlt around?
14:35 slef just "or later" and expand the "v" to "version"?
14:35 thd I know what you mean but others may find it too subtle.
14:35 thd I prefer "or later version" to "+" for clarity.
14:34 slef thd: is "Yes, I am in favor of changing the wiki page license to the GPLv2+ terms used by the main Koha download" clear enough?
14:33 slef back
14:23 slef on customer call
14:19 thd slef: The license choice in the Wiki is a DokuWiki default. The previous wiki had no license statement. I doubt anyone ever decided anything in examining DokWiki configuration.
14:15 thd It is not USB which could now be part of the problem in some recent Linux kernels
14:14 thd no, I never want a wireless keyboard.
14:14 wizzyrea (and I use a Mac)
14:13 wizzyrea because my wireless one does similar stupid things sometimes
14:13 wizzyrea is it wireless?
14:12 thd Replacing the keyboard does no good
14:11 thd I have read something that suggests it may be a kernel bug.
14:11 * thd have been having keyboard trouble for months
14:10 thd oops
14:09 thd ing
14:09 pianohacker ?
14:09 thd ing
14:09 thd ing
14:09 thd ing
14:09 thd ing
14:09 thd ing
14:09 thd ing
14:09 thd ing
14:09 thd ing
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14:09 thd ing
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14:09 thd ing
14:09 thd I did at least see everything in yesterdays meeting
14:08 thd slef: I am very sorry for missing the bumping. Bumping is easy to miss. I will try to fix any confusion which I may have caused with my message now.
14:06 thd I managed to help influence the wording of GPL 3 so I know that it works. The wording change took my statement almost exactly when I was not attempting to specify wording.
14:04 thd Unfortunately they do not have enough people to respond to everyone.
14:04 thd as do others.
14:03 thd Eben Moglen personally reads each comment.
14:03 thd However, every comment is read at SFLC.
14:03 slef The problem is with the process QA and the accountability, not the technicalities.
14:02 thd Mostly unanswered comments yes.
14:02 slef If so, it's a buggy mess and there are tons of unanswered comments in it.
14:02 thd It is much better than the absence of it.
14:02 thd Well it is not perfect but yes
14:01 slef By the current comment process, do you mean stet?
14:01 thd slef: If the current comment process existed which SFLC helped design I think that the issue would have been addressed from the beginning.
13:59 thd Consulting developers a little and publishers much more is what I think that he meant.
13:58 slef yeah, I've read similar messages from him
13:58 thd Bradley Kuhn said that developers were consulted quite poorly about GFDL
13:58 slef getting debian contributors to do work and then essentially rejecting it is a pretty easy way to cause a huge controversy
13:57 thd I do consider GFDL to be a big problem and I say so in my message to the list that GPL is the only real option
13:57 slef it predates FDL. FSF asked debian contributor opinions on FDL, then seemed to ignore nearly all of them.
13:56 thd I just remember it being a huge controversy recently in the context of GFDL.
13:56 slef http://lists.debian.org/search.html may know
13:55 slef I doubt it changed without a few detailed discussions
13:55 thd I know there is much that goes by because people basically want it to work
13:55 slef the move to the GPL was inspired by problems with the OPL IIRC but it's before my time
13:55 slef and we're not broken yet
13:54 slef but we've been using it for a decade or so
13:54 slef Not OTTOMH
13:54 thd slef: If you know or know where to check I am quite curious about what advise the Debian project had from lawyers about using the GPL as a documentation license.
13:53 thd I realise that my long message may cause confusion so I will fix that now.
13:52 thd I am sorry that I did not have time in May to properly address the issue and am happy for any reasonable resolution of it.
13:51 thd http://stats.workbuffer.org/irclog/koha/
13:51 slef NAFAIK
13:50 thd Is logbot working again?
13:50 thd The current IRC logs
13:50 slef thd: what is kohatoday?
13:50 thd gmcharlt slef: looking at kohatoday I missed nothing but the issue was rushed by so quickly I had no idea what was happening..
13:45 slef it probably should have been updated sooner and linked from meetings pages when it was bumped, but http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?do=search&id=relicensing does show it.
13:40 thd I kept looking at the wiki relicensing page and seeing vote to be held in May.
13:39 thd I may have missed something from the context earlier.
13:38 slef This has been bumped in the last few general meetings. It shouldn't be a surprise.
13:38 thd I just want to be certain that it is done well.
13:38 thd I am all for it if that is not clear
13:38 thd gmcharlt: I am sorry but I did loose attention at a certain point and was surprised that the issue was being reintroduced at this particular moment.
13:36 gmcharlt please pay more attention before assuming that we didn't take that into account
13:36 gmcharlt thd: which, oddly enough, is why slef and I doing exactly that during the meeting yesterday
13:35 thd gmcharlt slef: I would be doubtful of enough response in the small ballot window if an email message is not sent to each of the people on the list of names as well.
13:33 thd gmcharlt: Yes if the question is relicense under GPL 2 or later and that appears at the top of the ballot page then I think that the question has been properly asked.
13:31 thd Ignore my call for lawyers to look at the issue. They are unlikely to give an answer really helpful to the community and I will write another message to say so.
13:30 thd Of course I asked the wrong person.
13:30 thd I had asked chris about it last week and he suggested that the issue had been deferred
13:30 thd gmcharlt: I was really only trying to be helpful with very little time because I had thought the issue deferred until the meeting.
13:29 gmcharlt can we agree that the question will specify a GPL version, e.g., GPL v2 or later?
13:29 kf owen: thx for solving 3676 :)
13:29 gmcharlt thd: thanks for saying that - otherwise, frankly I would consider your email to be a purely dilatory move
13:28 thd I did not want to imply that
13:28 thd No
13:28 slef Do you want the relicensing ballot postponed?
13:28 thd I know that my message is long but it has a simple conclusion that the ballot question simply needs wording about how the relicensing is to be invoked.
13:27 thd All I am asking is that the ballot question be precise.
13:26 thd maybe I missed something at some point during the meeting
13:26 thd I also understood that there was an attempt to make them compatible
13:26 thd gmcharlt: yes, I understand that they are different.
13:25 slef This was covered in the meeting. You were here.
13:25 gmcharlt thd: licensing of the wiki and the Koha software itself are different matters
13:24 thd ?
13:24 thd why
13:24 slef thd: I am very cross with you.
13:24 thd slef: the way in which GPL is mentioned could mean GPL 1 which no one would really understand but in a ballot about relicensing more precision should be given than in more casual use.
13:20 thd slef: whatever the question should be that people are asked to ascent to should appear at the top of the ballot page for people to agree or not.
13:18 owen Hmmm.... Did I get him thinking about going back to bed?
13:17 pianohacker bbl
13:14 * owen can't imagine why
13:13 pianohacker yup, thought I'd try getting up before 10:00 once this week
13:13 pianohacker good morning
13:13 owen Hi pianohacker, you're in early
13:10 slef ok, looking at koha list
13:10 slef thd: even after the rewording I mentioned in the meeting?
13:10 thd See my message to the koha list
13:10 thd slef: There is no proper question on the ballot
13:09 slef thd: what problem?
13:09 thd gmcharlt: do you see the problem which I have identified for the relicensing ballot?
12:52 chris_n bbl
12:48 gmcharlt chris_n: probably would be - I don't know if anybody's pursued porting EG server to Windows, but XML::LibXML and XML::LibXSLT would be prereqs, sure
12:46 chris_n gmcharlt: the chances of XML::LibXSLT being in the the October release of Strawberry have just been greatly boosted by the release of XML::LibXSLT 1.70 yesterday.... this is very nice
12:45 magnusenger i'm almost certain i have seen a value_builder-script where at first you see only one or two fields, then when you make a choice the other, relevant fields appear, but i can't seem to find it now... sound familiar to anyone?
12:40 chris_n gmcharlt: I assume this might be of interest to the EG project as well?
12:40 chris_n of course this is a very back-burner project
12:40 gmcharlt chris_n++
12:40 chris_n I'm currently working to get the rest of the perl deps installed under strawberry beta to see if Koha will run
12:39 chris_n I was able to get it installed under the beta_2 release of strawberry
12:38 chris_n gmcharlt: as you can see here https://rt.cpan.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=48576 it is hoped that XML::LibXML will be part of the next Strawberry release
12:36 gmcharlt chris_n: cool (re win32 port) - tell me more
12:23 chris_n lol... Earl Grey is probably at the top of my list
12:13 jwagner Can't get much more succinct than that.
12:12 jwagner A friend of mine owns a button, which comes in very handy at groggy moments. It reads Tea. Earl Grey. Hot.
12:08 chris_n jwagner: tea should do just as well.... I like either... and the more variety the better
12:07 jwagner But I don't drink coffee :-( However, my tea should be brewed by now. Let me go retrieve it....
12:03 chris_n jwagner: probably a heavy dose of coffee would help :-)
12:02 munin` chris_n: The operation succeeded.
12:02 chris_n @later tell gmcharlt that win32 port of Koha is looking like it may be doable in the next 12 months or so
12:02 jwagner chris_n, it's far too early in the morning for stimulation....
12:00 * chris_n did not realize the stimulating effect he has on some people ;-)
11:59 chris_n gmcharlt: that win32 port of Koha is looking like it may be doable in the next 12 months or so
11:57 slef lunchtime here. bbi30ish
11:57 slef chris_n: probably. I should go play with it more, but I'm trying to catch up with user requests just now, so am trying to make sure we're feeding to bugs.koha.org where appropriate.
11:57 chris_n the one you suggest is a good idea and shouldn't take much time
11:56 chris_n slef: there are a number of "bells and whistles" enhancements that can be added based on the new label and pcard code
11:55 slef chris_n: ok. Thanks for the comment. I had forgotten that there was a batch-former option on the marc import.
11:54 chris_n slef: this week has been a schedule killer so it will be sometime next week before I get back on the pcard stuff
11:53 slef chris_n: hi. No, I haven't yet.
11:53 munin` 04Bug http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=3583 blocker, P5, ---, cnighswonger@foundations.edu, ASSIGNED, Patron Card Labels should print
11:53 chris_n slef: see my comment on bug 3583
11:53 chris_n g'morning
11:53 slef so are users going to be bitten if we introduce a maximum length?
11:50 gmcharlt probably for the same reason many, many columns are mediumtext and text - it was easier at the time to go with a data type that didn't require you to guess a maximum length
11:49 slef but why are they mediumtext and text?
11:49 slef changing them to varchar() would also allow indexing
11:49 slef ok, I'm backwards
11:49 slef "FULLTEXT indexes are supported only for MyISAM tables"
11:48 gmcharlt but if InnoDB doesn't do indexes on text columns either, we could change the name columns to varchar
11:47 slef ok, I'll recheck my notes
11:47 gmcharlt the point I'm trying to make is that we're not using MyISAM
11:47 slef I think that can do fulltext indexing, yes, but why are we using MyISAM?
11:47 gmcharlt what about an InnoDB table? ;)
11:46 slef (IIRC)
11:46 slef gmcharlt: can't index text fields on a MyISAM table.
11:45 gmcharlt slef: do we need to just add indexes on the surname and firstname columns, then?
11:44 slef hdl: Not the search itself, but the order.
11:44 slef gmcharlt: no. I'm having poor performance on some searches and have traced it back to sorting by names being a filesort, while sorting by cardnumber has an index.
11:40 Madar did u mean i must edit some of it ? and how ?
11:39 Madar i see the results
11:38 Madar <hdl> yesss i was checked
11:32 hdl slef: in little libraries, name and surnames are more often searched on
11:30 gmcharlt slef: not sure why - do you have enough overlap between patron card numbers and names that it makes a difference?
11:29 hdl hi
11:01 slef Afternoon all. Why is the default search order often surname,firstname instead of cardnumber?
10:22 magnusenger So my normarc_field_008.pl was telling addbiblio.pl to open marc21_field_008.pl...
10:21 magnusenger sorry, found it, There's some JavaScript in *_field_008.pl which tells addbiblio.pl which value_builder to use.
10:17 magnusenger hdl: yes
10:15 hdl which page ? addbiblio.pl ?
10:15 magnusenger hdl: yes, and the marc_subfield_structure.value_builder wasn't set to enything before I set it to normarc_field_008.pl
10:11 hdl have you reloaded your page ?
10:09 magnusenger Having some value_builder problems... Trying to create a normarc_field_008.pl, but when I select it for the 008 field, it doesn't "stick". Neither does marc21_field_008.pl. Then I set it to normarc_field_008.pl "by hand" in MySQL, but when I click on "..." next to 008, up pops marc21_008_field.pl. Any ideas?
09:57 Ropuch s/polsich/polisch
09:57 Ropuch I hoping for the best as i want him to share some bandwitch and server space for polsih Koha site ;>
09:56 Ropuch I've just send my chief link to prototype of our opac, it would be his first contact with live Koha
09:52 hdl and look at the results
09:52 hdl cgi-bin/koha/admin/checkmarc.pl
09:51 hdl have you checked you frameworks ?
09:50 hdl Madar :
09:37 Madar sry but am still i dnt know what i have 2 do in MARC Bibliographic framework ???
09:33 ricardo Good morning paul_p !
08:57 hdl yes
08:19 Madar did u mean MARC Bibliographic framework
08:19 Madar يهي ع ةثشى : MARC Bibliographic framework
08:04 hdl in Administration/ you have a link to check your framework
07:59 Madar Biblio framework ??? how ??
07:55 hdl (in administration=
07:55 hdl have you checked that ?
07:55 hdl CGI944: I think this comes out of a problem in your Biblio framework.
07:46 Ropuch Hello paul_p
07:38 CGI944 what can i do to solve this problem?
07:38 CGI944 the error what am getting when am adding a book is "Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/Biblio.pm line 1542"
07:35 CGI944 hi there anybody can help me
07:20 chris i might try that this weekend if i get some time
07:19 chris hdl: actually yeah a shell script that calls gettext would probably work fine ;)
07:19 Madar Hi all, I have an error while while adding a book in the koha.i am getting the error like: Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/Biblio.pm line 246205
07:19 Madar hi Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/Biblio.pm line 15420505
07:18 chris might be the win
07:18 chris just a .sh script
07:18 chris well make one that does that
07:18 chris :)
07:18 hdl i'd rather use gettext from bare command-line ;)
07:18 Ropuch and hdl :)
07:17 Ropuch Hello chris, Madar
07:17 hdl chris tmpl_process3.pl :(((((
07:17 Ropuch Shoud it be that way? I was sure it depends on itemtype
07:17 Madar it is after finished tha save record from Home › Cataloguing › Add MARC Record
07:17 Ropuch I did it by mistake, but then the book was shown line an serial in opac
07:16 Ropuch I have a book added with book framework with itemtype book, yet i typed 1 in # Volume/Copy for serials (orderreceive.pl)
07:16 Madar nope
07:16 Madar <thd> Is it via using the record editor where you have this bug?
07:15 chris and one for sql as well
07:15 chris that understands .js
07:15 chris just have to write another copy of tmpl_process3.pl
07:15 chris nope
07:13 kf hi chris and hdl
07:11 hdl do you have a suggestion for that ?
07:11 hdl sql and some js should get into po.
07:10 hdl About translations,
07:02 hdl hi chris
07:01 chris hi all
06:17 kf morning :)
05:56 richard hi Ropuch
05:43 Ropuch Morning, #koha
05:32 Madar Koha error The following fatal error has occurred: Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/Biblio.pm line 1542 Apache Server version:
05:06 thd Madar: Is it via using the record editor where you have this bug?
05:04 thd Madar: What error do you see displayed in the staff client record editor?
04:57 Madar Koha error The following fatal error has occurred: Tag "" is not a valid tag. at /usr/share/koha/lib/C4/Biblio.pm line 1542 Apache Server version: Apache/2.2.8 (Ubuntu) Server built: Jun 11 2009 18:39:41 Koha 3.00.00.107 Koha DB 3.0000107 MySQL mysql Ver 14.12 Distrib 5.0.51a, for debian-linux-gnu (i486) using readline 5.2 OS Linux web.com 2.6.24-23-generic #1 SMP Wed Apr 1 21:47:28 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/Linux Perl 5.008008
04:57 Madar this the Error - <thd>
04:28 Madar thi caNT SAVE IT
04:26 Madar when i finished add record
04:25 Madar i 've a question about Koha Error
04:14 thd good morning Madar
04:14 Jo cya
04:14 thd Jo: have fun stretching
04:14 Jo talk tomorrow :)
04:14 Jo ok - have to go - pilates class.
04:13 Jo and thats what the auditors check - not just money
04:13 Jo its about transparency and accountability
04:13 Jo sure - and once we agree on something we have to do it
04:13 Madar G.morning
04:13 thd Jo: It is not the accounting which would be at issue it is the use of any assets.
04:12 Jo thats all by agreement :)
04:12 thd Jo: slef will want a really solid guarantee.
04:12 Jo full team of auditors here every year auditing everything, not only money, by goals, plans, strategies etc and how and why we did everything.
04:11 Jo The powers seem pretty wide but uit is heavily monitored and scritinised
04:10 Jo sure.
04:08 chris ok, gotta go catch my bus
04:07 thd Jo: People would probably want a legal guarantee as a formality ensuring that assets would be used as directed by the Koha community.
04:07 chris bascially you have to set up a bunch of rules ... and stick to them
04:06 chris http://www.societies.govt.nz/cms/incorporated-societies/rules-of-incorporated-societies
04:05 chris yep incorporated societies
04:05 thd chirs: Does that mean that there are much more restrictive non-profits in NZ like those in the US?
04:04 chris thd: yes charitable trusts are set up for that reason
04:04 thd Jo: In the US non-profits cannot do things outside far to many rules.
04:03 thd Jo: Wow, you seem to have much more discretion than any US non-profit would have.
04:03 pianohacker off to vpn land, cya all tomorrow
03:55 Jo schedule t: (I love this one) Do such other acts and things as the Trustees wants ...
03:54 Jo so yes to bank account in France or USA (we have a paypall account in the states :)
03:53 Jo that was what i envisaged for the Koha group : a sub committee of the Trust
03:53 Jo schedules for delegate to committee
03:53 Jo "Bank accounts: open an account at any bank" schedule k
03:52 Jo schdule 20s: delegate to committee
03:51 Jo we can invrest in NZ or overseas
03:51 Jo and the schedule
03:50 Jo clause 20 of the deed looks interesting: Power to Create Classes of members
03:49 Jo but it has never happened.
03:49 Jo so, basically if it got really shitty council could theoretically starve us of funding, or appoint crappy trustees.
03:48 Jo get 85% funding from local council rest from fees and charges and grants and donations
03:48 Jo are audited by Audit NZ (central Govt auditors)
03:47 Jo we have a management agreement which sets out agreed performance measures
03:47 Jo the trustees are appointed by the District Council
03:47 Jo "Trust has all of the same powers as a natural person"
03:46 thd Jo: How independent is HLT of local government control?
03:45 thd We should have more people voting if we can have informed people voting.
03:44 Jo heres our HLT Trust Deed: http://kete.library.org.nz/trust/documents/show/39-deed-of-trust
03:44 thd Actually, with only 165 votes it would be very easy to find a few more votes to swing any outcome which is my biggest concern about contentious issues.
03:43 chris Amit: cool :)
03:43 Jo yep.
03:42 thd Jo: Do you have an accountant or someone to ask about holding monetary donations in the US and France?
03:41 Jo cant do
03:41 thd gmcharlt: I am confident it was there but it took Jbrice 2 years to start KUDOS because he became too busy.
03:41 Jo sets out what we can and can'
03:41 Jo I'm going to scan and load the HLT trust deed online.
03:39 gmcharlt whether a foundation *can* be set up I would argue is not actually something that Koha people in general can answer - it will ultimately depend on *some* people having the will and/or the institution backing to go through with it
03:39 Amit chris: Today Bangalore workshop started
03:39 thd I have seen organisations killed on the first meeting with some poor bylaws.
03:39 Amit heya Jo
03:38 thd How many people have set up foundations and had them flourish.
03:38 thd The question should be asked as to whether people think that a foundation could really be set up now.
03:37 Jo so really good exercise to go through in that it has higghlighted the con fusion
03:37 Jo I don't think it was clear
03:37 thd People should express what they believe about whether the ballot question was well understood.
03:37 * gmcharlt waves at Jo
03:36 Jo waves at Galen
03:36 Jo so this discussion we have just had really needed to be on the list
03:36 Jo hello AMit!
03:36 thd Jo: People need to comment on the poll results and related matters.
03:34 Jo so how to proceed
03:34 thd people should be thankful that HLT is there to help even a little.
03:34 Jo so, we appear to be all agreed
03:34 pianohacker Jo: yeah, yeah
03:33 Jo pianohacker: bad cough mate - should get that looked at :)
03:33 Jo Chris: agreed .. and get all over organised and bossy and nit picky and 'superior' (and yes I am a librarian)
03:33 thd Jo: People just need a legal entity to allow the project to do whatever it needs to do without too much trouble.
03:32 pianohacker *cough* frbr *cough*
03:32 thd Jo: People should not expect more than what the project contributes on its own.
03:32 * chris generalises grossly
03:32 chris librarians seem to like huge committees that talk all the time and do very little
03:31 chris ppl voted for it though
03:31 chris yeah
03:31 thd IFLA is not a holding organisation and should have been a different ballot question.
03:31 Jo not into overpromising and underdelivering
03:31 Jo My Trustees want to be clear what the communitys expectations of them are.
03:30 chris well not IFLA
03:30 thd Jo: all the competing organisations let the projects run themselves but others have more rules about how to interact with the holding organisation.
03:30 Jo (I speak a little too crisply or bluntly sometimes - especially wjhen excited :) My words can always be smoothed and softened and rephrased ;)
03:29 thd The questions should be seen to be a little more neutral.
03:29 Jo needs to be made very clear to koha community at large that the trustees would do this with a light hand ... the commun ity will still have to step forward and volunteer and nominate officeholders and coordinate development, training, conferences etc
03:28 thd You can get any result you want if you ask in the right way.
03:28 thd Jo: I like the way you put those questions.
03:27 Jo then the second part of the poll comes in : ie a bunch of options.
03:27 Jo Q2 Or should the community do nothing in haste and proceed with investigations to either set up a koha foundation or join something bigger
03:26 thd Jo: the statement in the wiki about how HLT would accommodate the project would give more autonomy to the project than any non-independent entity.
03:26 pianohacker (of course, this is a fully-fledged foundation and not an intermediate trust)
03:26 Jo immediate response in other words
03:26 Jo yes and no
03:25 Jo Q1: should HLT be asked to secure koha stuff and hold in trust for the community
03:25 chris pianohacker: that would be great
03:25 chris pianohacker: indeed :)
03:25 Jo part A has 2 questions:
03:25 Jo its almost like there is a part A and part B
03:25 pianohacker chris: if the foundation were to pull together resources and _hire_ a developer, that would be entirely different
03:24 thd We can also be certain that the wording of the poll is reviewed by everyone before it is published.
03:24 Jo and we absolutely do believe in the koha community is the best 'ruler' of the koha community
03:24 Amit heya Jo
03:24 pianohacker thd: yes
03:24 Amit good morning #koha
03:24 chris yeah someone who is gonna tell me what to work on = not gonna fly
03:24 Jo hiya
03:23 Amit hi chris, brendan
03:23 thd pianohacker: we obviously cannot ignore the result of the poll. The only advantage we have is a little time before the final poll on the issue.
03:23 Jo we are low key, relaxed, honest, trusting
03:23 chris :)
03:23 chris thats why i favour hlt
03:23 Jo coz it won't happen
03:23 Jo i don't want the community to be expecting big 'action-man' response from HLT
03:23 chris hlt would be the preference
03:22 Jo we need wise words from the kaitiaki
03:22 chris spi, conservancy, hlt are all fine with me
03:22 Jo totally agree
03:22 Jo yep
03:22 thd At least nengard thinks that the question was not explained well on the ballot
03:21 pianohacker we want to consider the results carefully, though, to avoid charges of "well why did you have the poll if you're just going to ignore it?"
03:21 thd I think that the biggest disadvantage to SPI and the Conservancy is that the project will not get the attention which it can get from HLT with no real investment on the part of HLT
03:21 chris :-)
03:20 Jo (I'm really a bully / dictator you know ....)
03:20 Jo sigh ... ok ..... which brings us back to the vote whioch was clearly confusing and not understood
03:19 thd Jo: Showing leadership is one thing but be careful about how to be seen to promote that leadership.
03:19 Jo and nor do we want to now
03:19 Jo excatly
03:18 thd Jo: HLT has trust because they have never asserted a legacy interest in promoting their own interests
03:17 thd exactly
03:17 Jo I know - I get that.
03:17 chris "pulling a liblime" = doing stuff without consultation
03:17 Jo immediate problem solved
03:17 Jo and ask for BibLibre and Liblime to please give the stuff back
03:17 chris thats what it will forever be known as
03:17 chris naw, dont wanna pull a liblime
03:17 Jo i wonder if HLT should just take the lead
03:16 chris this is the issue we face
03:16 chris the people new to koha voted for a new foundation
03:16 Jo well, thats the problem with democracy :)
03:16 chris the people most involved in koha voted for hlt or spi
03:16 chris if you look at the raw data
03:15 thd the second highest vote was for HLT.
03:15 Jo thatis our very real problem
03:15 thd Jo: 56% of those who voted did not understand that.
03:15 chris yep
03:15 Jo yes they do.
03:14 thd People need to be persuaded with the reality that the second cannot or should not be rushed.
03:14 Jo 2nd one can not be rushed
03:13 Jo mid - long term: tease out the Koha foundation tangle and see what options are and what needs to be done
03:13 Jo immediate problem: reclaim koha assets for the koha community
03:13 Jo so i see 2 issues:
03:12 Jo sure.
03:12 thd Jo: I see at as interim as well but people in the US may have an easier time helping the long term if they can give to somewhere that they can pretend is in the US even if it is really in NZ or wherever.
03:12 Jo which is the myth being perpetuated in the States and through koha.org at the moment
03:11 Jo if they refuse, or insist on a sale at an unreasonable price ie more than just a token price, then the Koha community needs to seriously rethink what we want to call ourselves.... coz Koha is not and can never be just 1 vendor
03:10 Jo and i think HLT needs to stand up very quietly and politely, and ask for Liblime to give the community assets back to the community.
03:09 chris indeed
03:09 Jo and anyone who didn't know the history would think that liblime IS koha
03:09 chris yup
03:09 Jo its a liblime advertsiing site
03:09 Jo the koha.org site is a bloody joke
03:09 chris frankly something that gets heavily involved sounds like a recipe for a mess to me
03:08 Jo whci is what we need - now - immediately.
03:08 chris ;)
03:08 chris i see that as perfect
03:08 Jo a fast, immediate, pair of safe hands
03:08 Jo I see the Trust as an interim step
03:08 Jo I think we would be a good body to hold the copyright, trademarks and domain name in trust for the community at large. Not at all sure the Trustees would be keen to get heavily involved personally in lots of big stuff.
03:06 Jo sure.
03:03 thd Jo: There is also the issue of perhaps obtaining grants from US and European organisations which grant only within their own regions.
03:02 thd Jo: If donated resources are spent in the originating currency they can pay for a little more.
03:01 thd Jo: Well the less which is lost through currency conversion the better.
03:01 Jo I don't know the answer to that either. I do however have a lawyer I can all these questions of
03:00 thd Jo: Could HLT set up some place to hold money in a US and French bank?
03:00 Jo so US based people who want to give stuff want a US based koha trust/org/foundation?
02:59 thd Jo: I think many want some place in the US and Europe to give resources
02:59 Jo (i'm off looking now ...)
02:59 Jo make it a tenner then :)
02:58 thd Jo: I am not certain if a $1 sale would pass in the US if some US charity would be watching over the sale and worrying about what the IRS might think..
02:57 Jo (muses that I sold a limited liability company for $1 once)
02:56 Jo ie sold for a peppercorn
02:56 Jo sorry $1 (not 41)
02:56 Jo but regardless, they can be sold for 41
02:56 Jo no - but i will investigate
02:56 thd Jo: Do you know of any similar tax rule affecting NZ charitable trusts?
02:56 Jo so can't be transferred from 1 us based charitable trust to an off shore charitable trust
02:55 Jo thd: ok.
02:55 Jo and this is relebvant: http://www.community.net.nz/how-toguides/legalstructures/landingpage.htm
02:55 thd Jo: We discovered that in the US the Internal Revenue Service has a rule that assets cannot be transferred to a non-US based nonprofit.
02:55 chris frankly a thriving governance layer that tries to govern the project would probably be the only reason id ever fork :-)
02:55 Jo This is a good resource too: http://www.community.net.nz/how-toguides/legalstructures/publicationsresources/charitable-trust.htm
02:54 chris stuff like that, which people seem to believe is possible makes me worried
02:54 Jo (totally confident)
02:54 chris "Like a lot of software projects, Koha’s movement toward coherent self-government has lagged behind its software development and adoption, and this has left the project in a position where no one legally-recognized entity can say to Liblime, “No, you can’t do that.†Koha has a nascent user group, and has been talking about a foundation, but it hasn’t got to a place where Koha belongs to Koha, with a clearly-defined legal entity."
02:53 Jo sure
02:53 thd Jo: Can you answer some question about NZ charitable trusts?
02:53 chris and that
02:53 Jo hi all - just reading back
02:53 chris http://freerangelibrarian.com/2009/09/18/it-takes-a-village-koha-and-open-source-leadership/
02:53 thd I have some questions which I would like to put to SFLC but I do not want to be asking merely privately.
02:52 chris I think this article from K Schneider, Free Range Librarian, is well worth everyone's attention, especially as it brings back into the focus the need for a thriving and well structured governance layer within the Koha Foundation.
02:52 chris things like this make me fearful
02:52 pianohacker elopment
02:52 pianohacker same with direction of dev
02:52 pianohacker you can strongly encourage cooperation, but not force it
02:51 chris yep
02:51 thd no one can force cooperation from people even with a slightly different license which covers some problems.
02:50 chris and having a foundation wouldnt change that one bit
02:50 chris exactly
02:49 thd the license allows LibLime to do what it is doing with the code.
02:48 chris yep
02:48 thd It could also help people share resources, exactly if people wanted to provide resources to the foundation expressly for sharing
02:48 chris i fear that people think it will magically stop situations like what has occured with liblime happening
02:48 chris if people wanted to let it
02:47 chris it could influence direction sure
02:47 thd I think that it could do more by degrees
02:47 chris IMHO anyway
02:47 chris one to hold property so it cant be misused = win
02:46 chris trying to set one up to control the project = recipe for fail
02:46 chris yep as long as people realise a foundation has no control over what people do
02:44 thd although I can imagine an interest in marshalling some effort at fixing neglected bugs or allowing companies to cooperate better where there are not enough discrete customers to demand something everyone really wants
02:43 richard yeah, the direction of development is from people wanting to develop a feature stuff and getting it done - not some entity saying that this is what you should develop next
02:43 chris http://www.librarytechnology.org/blog.pl?ThreadID=126&BlogID=1 things like this
02:42 chris thd and richard, i agree wholeheartedly
02:42 thd controlling the project in terms of directing development is silly
02:41 chris or would be able to govern the project/control direction
02:41 thd I suppose I do as well in the sense that we need some procedures for agreeing how to use community property
02:41 richard i would have thought the only thing it would govern are the domain names and being the copyright holder
02:41 chris people seem to think it would be able to have stopped things like the fork etc
02:41 chris i just want it as a place to store community property
02:40 chris i dont know, but people seem to want it to govern
02:40 thd chris: What would the foundation have to govern?
02:40 chris yeah
02:40 thd chris: we need to explain the issues on the mailing list where maybe people will understand that foundation now means foundation later and not now because it would take to long to agree on things.
02:40 chris im also worried that so many think a foundation/association will be able to govern
02:39 chris (who voted for form a foundation now)
02:38 chris i think most people think they were voting for the final solution
02:38 thd I presumed that was the less well informed vote about the practical problem
02:38 chris democracy only works if people understand the issues
02:37 chris it was what i feared would happen
02:37 thd chris: what do you think of the majority vote for foundation now?
02:36 thd I will ask on the mailing list.
02:35 chris probably not
02:35 thd Is there anyone from NZ around who can clarify an issue about NZ charitable trusts?
02:29 thd jo: are you there?
01:52 pianohacker there you go
01:52 pianohacker ahahaha
01:52 gmcharlt now, did I specify 9 a.m. to 5 p.m.? ;)
01:52 pianohacker bah. I can't remember the last time I did anything nine to five
01:51 gmcharlt become a boring 9 to 5 job?
01:51 chris heh
01:49 pianohacker what would the koha project do without people with weird sleep schedules
01:47 ricardo Sleep time. Take care!
01:47 ricardo There... just in case.
01:47 munin` ricardo: The operation succeeded.
01:47 ricardo @later tell hdl Correcting the problematic section of the PO Portuguese staff file that you pointed out solved the "strange redirect problem". Thanks! :) Chris has already pushed the updated version to git
01:47 ricardo Take 2
01:47 ricardo pianohacker: That's what I was thinking
01:46 pianohacker I think the colon will cause problems
01:46 ricardo Bye people!
01:46 ricardo (I hope the syntax was correct)
01:46 ricardo Thanks munin` ;-)
01:46 pianohacker chris: cool. wish I could figure out a good way to make the .pref files translateable, though
01:46 munin` ricardo: The operation succeeded.
01:46 ricardo @later tell hdl: Correcting the problematic section of the PO Portuguese staff file that you pointed out solved the "strange redirect problem". Thanks! :) Chris has already pushed the updated version to git
01:45 pianohacker np, least i could do
01:45 * chris just got updated russian and ukranian .po files plus updated sql
01:45 ricardo pianohacker: You're welcome... Thanks for also testing this
01:44 pianohacker good night, thanks for your translation work
01:44 ricardo chris: Thank you very much for everything! :)
01:44 chris night ricardo
01:44 ricardo I'm leaving now
01:44 ricardo Well... Almost 3 AM now and I have to wake up early for work.
01:44 pianohacker or moinmoin, rather
01:44 ricardo pianohacker: Thanks for that info as well :)
01:44 pianohacker looks similar to dokuwiki
01:44 ricardo chris: Interesting. I didn't know that
01:44 chris it did the job
01:43 pianohacker based on http://web.archive.org/web/20041021075952/http://www.saas.nsw.edu.au/koha_wiki/, seems to be something called tavi
01:41 chris or late 2005
01:41 chris didnt move to wiki.koha.org until after liblime existed, sometime in 2006
01:40 chris http://www.saas.nsw.edu.au/koha_wiki/index.php
01:40 chris then it moved to
01:40 chris it was http://www.saas.nsw.edu.au/wiki/index.php
01:39 chris nope
01:39 thd yes so wiki.koha.org was not the URL?
01:39 pianohacker do you have a url? earliest in wayback is 2006 as dokuwiki
01:39 chris march 20, 2002 it started
01:38 chris hosted by roger buck in australia
01:38 chris for ages
01:38 chris yes
01:38 thd chris: Yet there was one previously?
01:37 chris cant remember
01:36 thd chris: what was the Koha wiki using before DokuWiki?
01:33 ricardo chris: RIGHT!
01:33 chris basically i want it to be an exact mirror
01:33 ricardo chris: OK
01:33 chris and i dont want to push up all the merge stuff
01:33 ricardo I'm officially now TWO steps above... git newbie! ;-)
01:33 chris because i push from there up to gitorious and github
01:32 ricardo OK :)
01:32 chris yep thats the reason i do it
01:32 ricardo chris: That's the only advantage (and difference) that I see, between both approaches, for a "pure mirror" scenario, like the one you're describing
01:31 chris you dont end up wiht merge messages
01:31 chris yep, it does
01:31 ricardo chris: Well, I think in that case it makes no difference. But, yeah... if you don't "touch" those branches, maybe rebasing instead of merging, avoids getting some "merge" messages in the commit history, not sure
01:31 pianohacker for what reason? if it's a clean pull (fast-forward), it's the same difference, no?
01:30 chris on my pristine branches
01:30 chris nope but i still like to rebase versus merge
01:30 ricardo s/ if you're cleaning/if you're keeping
01:29 ricardo chris: rebase? But if you're cleaning your 3.0.x / master "clean", you don't have local commits in those branches to rebase on top of their "origin"s... right?
01:29 chris pianohacker: if i have pushed that branch up remotely somewhere, then yep i delete it locally
01:28 chris i fetch and rebase my 3.0.x and master one .. then merge into my work branch
01:28 chris i never pull into my work branches
01:27 chris yeah
01:27 ricardo chris: In this case "hdl" didn't apply my proposed patch to the file (C4/Search.pm), but instead changed something else in the file (and I agreed to that)... So, if I do a git pull, the file gets BOTH changes and, in this case, it should only keep hdl change
01:27 chris sometimes
01:27 pianohacker ?
01:27 pianohacker chris: do you remove the branch on acceptance of patch
01:26 ricardo Right
01:26 chris (i leave it there, just dont use it)
01:26 ricardo (once i submit my patches, my branch is done)
01:26 ricardo chris: That's what I was thinking...
01:26 chris and i start a new one
01:26 ricardo I have "rickoha30x" and "rickohamaster" for commiting / rebasing / merging
01:26 chris once i submit my patches, my branch is done
01:25 chris good :)
01:25 ricardo I only use those 2 for pulling
01:25 ricardo right...
01:25 chris or 3.0.x etc
01:25 ricardo chris: Don't worry. I'm NOT doing that :)
01:25 chris but you shouldnt be doing your commits on master
01:25 chris nope
01:24 ricardo Maybe I should undo my commits locally after sending them by "git-send-email"?
01:23 ricardo (and there's my 1st "silent" conflict in git... a merge done too well. Don't worry: it's NOT related to the problem we were discussing here. It was related to C4/Search.pm)
01:20 ricardo pianohacker: Thanks for the feedback... Some other difference then.
01:20 pianohacker same here, with same observed effects as ricardo
01:20 ricardo yeah
01:18 chris weird
01:18 ricardo gettext (GNU gettext-runtime) 0.17
01:18 ricardo # gettext --version
01:18 ricardo 5.0.3
01:17 ricardo # more /etc/debian_version
01:15 chris gettext (GNU gettext-runtime) 0.17
01:14 chris debian unstable
01:14 ricardo chris: Interesting... What is your distro / version? What version of gettext are you running?
01:13 chris since here it just skipped over that and did the rest
01:13 chris yeah and it must be related to a version of gettext
01:13 ricardo This was one hard and strange bug to debug (cause and effect were not really logical, apparently)
01:12 chris no worries
01:11 ricardo chris: Many thanks :)
01:10 ricardo Seeing them now
01:10 ricardo chris: Cool :)
01:09 chris pushing now
01:07 ricardo chris: Yeah... The one below was not so serious, but sure... it makes sense so correct that as well, while you're at it
01:06 chris also
01:05 chris yep there is an error on the one below it too, will fix that
01:05 ricardo chris ?
01:05 ricardo Clear enough? :-/
01:04 ricardo you must change "<a2>" to "<a1>"
01:04 ricardo When you put the contents of line 5638 inside the quotes of line 5636...
01:03 ricardo Small fix-to-the-fix
01:03 ricardo Oops
01:03 ricardo chris: Great, thanks! :)
01:03 * chris will fix and commit it
01:03 ricardo Should I submit this as a patch, do you want to fix this yourself or should it be easy for me to do this with Pootle?
01:03 chris ahh another reason why not to use a text editor to edit .po files :-)
01:02 ricardo and the content of line 5638 should go inside the quotes of line 5636 (the msgstr "" line)
01:01 ricardo Basically line 5637 should go away
01:00 ricardo It's in lines 5635 to 5638 of that file
01:00 ricardo http://git.koha.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=Koha;a=blob;f=misc/translator/po/pt-PT-i-staff-t-prog-v-3000000.po;h=2dbe0eeb5c864130ac66fe79702615aab987b95f;hb=3.0.x
01:00 ricardo chris: Hmm.... The fix is pretty small (just 2 lines). http://git.koha.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=Koha;a=blob;f=misc/translator/po/pt-PT-i-staff-t-prog-v-3000000.po;h=2dbe0eeb5c864130ac66fe79702615aab987b95f;hb=3.0.x
01:00 chris or tell me what line and ill fix it
00:59 chris best fix it in pootle too then, so it makes it into git
00:58 ricardo chris: Yeah, weird... But when doing this small correction, when I re-generate the templates, all dirs appear
00:58 chris still does in fact
00:57 chris with the version from git
00:57 chris its weird that it was working fine for me
00:57 ricardo With the help of hdl, I located a problem in the PO file... and I fixed it
00:57 ricardo chris: Great! :)
00:56 chris yep
00:56 ricardo chris: stll here?
00:55 ricardo Hi all
00:53 chris :)
00:51 * gmcharlt loves in-flight wifi
00:51 gmcharlt hi chris
00:50 chris heya gmcharlt
00:44 chris alert cancelled
00:29 chris to even
00:29 chris yeah, theres not much left in samoa too damage
00:28 pianohacker _pacific/*, for that matter. at least the initial earthquake did less damage
00:28 pianohacker south
00:27 mason heya, yep
00:26 pianohacker you too, mason, Jo
00:25 mason 3 in 1 week?
00:25 chris yeah i hope it is a false alarm
00:24 pianohacker good luck, chris
00:24 pianohacker yet another tsunami - I hope this one isn't as damaging
00:24 pianohacker yikes
00:22 chris :(
00:22 chris http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/2944170/Two-earthquakes-off-Vanuatu