IRC log for #koha, 2007-06-19

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
14:05 thd kados: are you there?
19:04 paul hello world. it's 9PM and 5 mn, am I the only one on this chanel ?
19:04 rch hi paul (nope)
19:04 cm nope, paul, you're not.  :)
19:04 paul )
19:04 paul was asking himself, of course ;-)
19:05 paul kiwis are awaken...
19:05 russel hi paul
19:05 paul hi russel
19:05 paul 'morning
19:05 russel very cold here this morning - hard to get out of bed :-)
19:06 tumer[A] hello all, long time its been
19:06 paul hi tumer. nice to see you here for the meeting
19:06 kados2 wow
19:06 kados2 sorry golks
19:06 kados2 folks even
19:06 tumer hi paul
19:06 kados2 IRC was blocked where I am currently
19:07 kados2 ryan found for me, so thanks ryan
19:07 kados2 big turnout today!
19:07 tumer i am here just by coincidence, been away from library work for some time
19:08 kados2 so are we ready to get started?
19:08 kados2 maybe we can do a roll call?
19:08 ryan here!
19:08 tumer tumer present
19:08 cm cm here
19:09 sanspach sanspach lurking
19:09 russel russel is here
19:09 paul (I told him he will be
19:09 kados2 hey sanspach, long time no see
19:09 paul (sorry)
19:09 kados2 morning russ, thanks for making it so early!
19:09 kados2 still waiting for chris I take it?
19:10 kados2[…]etingnotes07jun18
19:10 kados2 there's our agenda
19:10 kados2 I put in some suggested times as wel
19:10 kados2 we will have to postpone the discussion of Git until chris gets here
19:10 tumer kados have you doubled?
19:11 russel we needed more work out of him so we cloned him
19:11 kados2 hehe
19:11 kados2 so we have some new folks here
19:11 kados2 maybe you'd be willing to introduce yourselves
19:11 kados2 bureado?
19:11 kados2 johnb, cm, kyle_
19:12 kados2 sanspach, saorge
19:12 kados2 pecisk (don't recognise the nick)
19:12 paul and maybe newlogbot should be introduced as well ;-)
19:12 kados2 burg, tnb too i think
19:12 kados2 hehe
19:13 pecisk :))
19:13 kados2 so if you want, tell us who you are, and your interest in Koha, and if you have any development/documentation/​specification/translation skills, etc.
19:13 kados2 or other things you'd like to do on Koha
19:13 pecisk feel
19:13 cm guess i'm the only one paying attention from ccfls... don't know where johnb & kyle_ are.
19:14 kados2 (cm, and ccfls isn't really new to Koha, but maybe new to the developer's chat)
19:14 kados2 :-)
19:14 johnb I'm here
19:15 cm yeah, i'm not on here much.  good news, though; we migrated our 1st & largest library to dev_week.
19:15 cm now only 8 more to go.  ;)
19:15 kados2 wohoo!
19:15 cm w00t!
19:15 tumer I will be needing ILL module very soon has to be OCLC compliant, anyone working on that?
19:16 pecisk I am Linux admin and dev, I am interested in Koha from a time when I girlfriend wrote project about implementing it in local museum, unfortunately lot of real time issues blocked to realise it in real life. However, I like that Koha is here and quite advanced, as I hate proritary backend stuff which is very expensive to license and doesn't work in lot of cases anyway :)
19:16 thd cm: what are the ccfls?
19:16 kados2 chris: welcome
19:16 cm crawford county federated library system, in northwestern pennsylvania
19:16 kados2 pecisk: welcome to Koha
19:17 pecisk thanks :)
19:17 kados2 ok, well don't want to force anyone else to announce themselves
19:17 kados2 so we'll move on
19:17 kados2 news from developers?
19:17 kados2 I will start
19:17 pecisk I could do translating and testing, but not much developer time for now, but I hope for more in future
19:18 thd kados2: asking is not forcing
19:18 kados2 last IRC meeting I announced that Liblime was hiring chris, mason and russ from Katipo
19:18 kados2 so this time, I'm announcing that transition is completed
19:18 kados2 and also, the big news everyone heard on the list already, we have  Koha Project Day every week now
19:19 kados2 it will be on Sunday/Monday (Sunday for the US office, Monday for the NZ one)
19:19 toins_ good point
19:19 kados2 pecisk, great!
19:19 kados2 paul, do you have some news from France?
19:20 paul yes, one that I alreday have mailed to koha-devel : 2 libraries are running Koha 3.0 live
19:20 paul one with zebra, one without.
19:20 kados2 very cool
19:20 paul we have open to track bugs.
19:20 paul it's mantis, a bugzilla like, but it's in french, so easier for frenchies to fill.
19:20 kados2 neat
19:21 paul and that will be our customer entry point for requests.
19:21 cm we've been using mantis too.  very handy.
19:21 paul another one : SAN-OP just published their RFP for a new acquisition module. we will answer, of course ;-)
19:22 paul a last one : we should have a new large public library, in New Caledonia, switching to Koha in 2007 (half the size of SAN-OP / NPL)
19:22 kados2 fantastic paul
19:22 kados2 anyone else with some news?
19:23 tumer i have a zip file for Windows with rel TG
19:23 tumer it instalss all modules perl
19:23 kados2 wow, that sounds great tumer
19:23 tumer zebra,sql in 3 minutes
19:23 kados2 !!
19:23 paul wow... I can't believe it !
19:23 thd tumer: can I build your release completely from that?
19:23 tumer ready to download at[…]ha/opac-downlodas
19:24 toins_ 404 not found...
19:24 tumer it bulds all necessary files already downloaded 86 times
19:24 ryan downlodas ?
19:25 ryan downloads ?
19:25 tumer the result is The Parliament library of Turkey wants us to install it (big library)
19:25 tumer doing it next month
19:25 kados2 cool tumer
19:25 ryan nice
19:26 thd tumer: when is the Turkish national library switching to Koha?
19:26 tumer[…] but instructions in Turkish
19:26 kados2 ok, we have a big agenda
19:26 kados2 so lets move on
19:26 kados2 we'll skip git details until chris gets here
19:27 kados2 except to say that LibLime have been using git internally
19:27 tumer is it any good?
19:27 ryan we like it
19:27 tumer cool
19:27 kados2 the way koha version control works now it's very inefficient
19:28 kados2 we all run off of one 'stable' CVS branch
19:28 kados2 so every time someone commits something
19:28 kados2 it could break something else
19:28 kados2 with git, that won't happen
19:28 kados2 each person can have version control, and send notices to the RM when a new feature is ready
19:28 kados2 (similar to a commit, but doesn't affect the RM's version)
19:29 kados2 the RM can then branch, pull in the changes, test, and merge with the main tree
19:30 kados2 this will require the RM to be involved in every commit
19:30 kados2 which will improve our QA as well
19:30 kados2 if the RM doesn't have time, he can delegate the task to others
19:30 kados2 who he trusts to make the decisions
19:32 kados2 any questions/concerns/comments?
19:32 thd kados2: are local repositories only available locally or are they distributed under git?
19:32 paul yes, I have one !
19:32 kados2 thd: we can still have a main project repo
19:32 kados2 thd: and each developer can have their own repo
19:33 paul how will we decide to switch to git and how will we manage the CVS => git move ?
19:34 kados2 good question
19:34 kados2 s
19:34 kados2 I was hoping we could decide today to switch
19:34 kados2 the CVS=>git transition can be handled by ryan, chris and I
19:34 kados2 along with documentation on how to use the new setup
19:35 paul how will that work (the transition) ?
19:35 thd kados2: how does git differ from the GNU project which starts with an 'a'
19:35 kados2 how to decide: I think it's all about concensus among the people who write code in CVS
19:35 kados2 thd: git is what the linux kernel uses for version control
19:35 kados2 paul: chris can tell us best
19:35 paul so, the SAN-OP is the only one missing unless i'm missing someone
19:36 kados2 paul: yes, but they don't write much code, do they?
19:36 paul anyway, if I have directions to help me start, I'm OK to move.
19:36 kados2 and we can have a CVS front-end
19:36 paul right, but they synch their version with the HEAD one
19:36 kados2 so for people that only want to use CVS, it's OK
19:37 paul with a cvs branch being managed by 1 git local repository (not sure to use the correct terms...)
19:37 paul ?
19:37 thd kados2: there is a gnu CVS version control system which starts with an ''a'.  How does git differ?
19:37 kados2 thd I don't know what that is
19:38 kados2 thd:
19:38 ryan paul: right, your repo will be master for rel_2_2 , and kados' for head
19:38 paul ryan:  ok, understood, thx
19:38 kados2 we will also still have a web version history
19:38 kados2 it has better views than savannah currently has
19:39 kados2 and we can still have an email list for commits
19:39 paul my other question was about how to have an easy to access source code. I think this is the answer ;-)
19:39 paul what is a "commit" under git ?
19:39 paul when someone want to tell ppl that something is available on it's repository ?
19:40 ryan a commit will generate an email, or the committer might post to koha-devel
19:40 ryan then everyone will pull changes to their repos
19:40 paul I prefer an automatic email, to be sure not to forget ;-)
19:41 kados2 you can also 'push' to a shared repository
19:41 kados2 chris has been planning how it should work, and considering as well how each library/company will want their own repo
19:41 kados2 ok, so if there are no objections
19:42 kados2 we will plan this soon
19:42 paul none from me (except that I hope we will find enough time to learn git & other git tools ...)
19:42 kados2 and chris will be writing a mail soon explaining the process
19:42 paul do you also use cogito & other git related tools ?
19:42 kados2 (not me, but I think other LLers have played with it)
19:42 ryan cogito has largely become a part of git proper
19:43 paul part of git proper ???
19:43 paul a part of git itself you mean ?
19:43 ryan yes
19:43 ryan it's very easy to use
19:43 ryan you will like it :)
19:43 kados2 ok, so I have another item under 'Koha 3.0 release plan'
19:43 kados2 1st item is that I propose we move to git :-)
19:44 kados2 2nd is that I propose to move to time-based releases, starting immediately
19:44 tumer seconded
19:44 paul time based releases ? I fully agree with this idea...
19:44 kados2 the proposal is release 6 times a year
19:44 tumer time-based?
19:44 kados2 three types of releases
19:44 kados2 alpha, beta, stable
19:44 paul we say "it will be available at this date, we will see with what features"
19:45 kados2 so a new release every two months
19:45 kados2 July - Beta
19:45 kados2 Sept - Stable
19:45 kados2 Nov - Alpha
19:45 kados2 Jan - beta
19:45 kados2 Mar - Stable
19:45 kados2 etc.
19:45 paul feature based release : "it will be able when those features will be included, whatever the date"
19:45 kados2 until now, with 3.0 it has ben impossible, because it wasn't stable at all
19:46 kados2 but we can do a beta now
19:46 paul so your proposal is to completly change our release theory ?
19:46 kados2 (in July)
19:46 thd what does time based release mean exactly?
19:46 kados2 and get feedback, and then a stable in sept
19:47 kados2 I am proposing a change in the release theory, yes
19:47 kados2 three types of releases
19:47 kados2 alpha - maybe some bugs, please test
19:47 kados2 beta - most bugs fixed, we think it's stable, please test
19:47 paul what if a bug appears in a sept-stable version, that is discovered in, say, november ?
19:47 kados2 stable - tested, in production at some places
19:48 kados2 I think that we release the stable version with the bug fix
19:48 paul + are you speaking of public releases ?
19:48 kados2 paul, yes public releases
19:48 kados2 so we have say 2.2.10
19:48 kados2 then, a bug is found
19:48 kados2 so we do 2.2.10b
19:48 kados2 with only the bug fix
19:48 thd paul: is not issuing a new release the same as happens now?
19:49 kados2 paul (git will make this easier)
19:49 paul thd : ???
19:49 kados2 paul: (as you know for 2.2, this is quite hard )
19:49 paul right. It is harder because, as 3.0 was long to come, some ppl have added feature to rel_2_2 ...
19:49 kados2 right
19:50 thd paul: I mean how would issuing a bug fix release be any different?
19:50 paul what I wanted to propose was to have :
19:50 paul - 2.2 branch, strictly bugfixes
19:50 paul - 2.4 branch, based on 2.2+liblime additions (serials, barcode printing, and some others)
19:51 paul - 3.0 branch, based on head.
19:51 kados2 hmmm
19:51 kados2 I would prefer only two:
19:51 kados2 2.2 branch, based on 2.2+liblime additions
19:51 kados2 3.0 branch, based on head
19:52 kados2 (liblime editions I think also include mysql 5 support by the way)
19:52 kados2 (which is necessary even for 2.2, as many people have trouble with 2.2 because they have mysql 5)
19:52 paul you're right. except your additions have been done on npl templates, and we couldn't test them deeply, even if I asked toins to port them to default templates)
19:53 paul so, in france, I have problems with this branch.
19:53 kados2 right
19:53 thd paul: now that Etch is stable I think that 2.2 should have MySQL 5 support
19:53 kados2 ok
19:53 kados2 I will have LL team add to default then
19:53 thd paul: what problems do you have in France with 2.4?
19:53 kados2 it will be less work in the long run
19:54 kados2 to get them working with both templates
19:54 kados2 than to have two branches and another release to manage
19:54 kados2 paul: is that OK?
19:54 paul thd : right. I tried to port mySQL5.0 to 2.2.x, I may have missed some, but a large part of the stuff should be OK
19:54 paul kados2 : yes, i'm OK.
19:54 kados2 great
19:54 kados2 so we have decided:
19:55 kados2 1. moving to git
19:55 paul (even if I'll have to investigate & test your additions anyway, for my customers ;-) )
19:55 kados2 2. time-based releases: every two months, alpha, beta, stable
19:55 kados2 3. LL will commit to default templates, and we will not have a 2.4, but stay with 2.2
19:55 kados2 wow, very productive meeting :-)
19:55 paul about 2. :
19:56 paul how will we handle major new features that could not be done in just 6 months ?
19:56 paul (git will help us will be the answer i think ;-) )
19:56 kados2 yes :-)
19:56 kados2 they can be created on a branch
19:56 kados2 and merged when they are ready
19:56 russel and how will we handle when two teams are working on a similar feature at the same time?
19:57 kados2 russel: good question
19:57 russel i am thinking of ACQ which everyone seems to want to have a crack at
19:57 kados2 acquisitions is a good example
19:57 kados2 snap
19:57 paul right.
19:57 kados2 paul: some news: we have a large academic library that we have worked with to define some new acquisitions features
19:57 paul yes, you already told me.
19:58 kados2 we could:
19:58 kados2 1. examine each other's specifications, and decide who will work on what, etc.
19:58 kados2 2. have two comletely different acquisitions modules
19:59 paul 1 = maybe, but will require a big coordination, and SAN-OP want something live for 2008, jan
19:59 paul 2 = would be a shame
19:59 kados2 yep
19:59 thd Is either looking for a full accounting system?
19:59 kados2 thd: yes, ours is
19:59 paul not for us
20:00 kados2 I think #2 is the only way for acquisitions
20:00 ryan i like the idea of modularizing the modules.
20:00 thd I have a suggestion for full accounting
20:00 paul (maybe you can explain what you call "full accounting system") ?
20:00 ryan so an acqisitions module can be 'installed' into koha
20:00 kados2 ryan: yea
20:00 paul because in france, public structure accounting software are very specific, proprietary, expensive, user-unfriendly, ...
20:01 johnb We had this conversation in France.  Due to everyones accounting quirks wouldn't it be best to make ACQ a plugin?
20:01 paul maybe/probably
20:01 thd paul: everything you might expect to manage all parts of a libraries budget control and payments
20:01 paul so, definetly : NO speaking of SAN-OP plans.
20:01 russel ok so step back from ACQ for a sec
20:01 russel bigger picture
20:01 thd s/libraries/library's/
20:02 russel how do we manage when two sets of developers are working on similar features at the same time?
20:02 kados2 russel: depends on what you mean by 'manage'
20:03 tumer 1. declare your intention of developing a module
20:03 russel or are we just going to have to reconcile that there will be duplicated effort from time to time?
20:03 thd I think there is a namespace concern if they may not be compatible
20:03 tumer 2. discuss with other interested parties
20:03 tumer 3. share work
20:03 kados2 russel: I think tumer's right, we need to be better about declaring our intentions on the koha-devel channel
20:03 russel tumer++
20:03 russel i dont think we do enough of that is my concern
20:04 kados2 russel: I completely agree
20:04 cm perhaps use a centralized tasklist on the wiki or somesuch?
20:04 paul I don't remember having added a major feature without warning on koha-dev before. So it's not a big job ;-)
20:04 russel well when do you give the warning?
20:04 russel when you start working on it
20:04 tumer paul you war that you added not adding?
20:04 kados2 paul: we have announced major features, but we haven't really been good about defining them ahead of time
20:04 russel or just before you commit it?
20:05 paul speaking of major additions, I share before writing them.
20:05 kados2 so maybe we need to:
20:05 kados2 1. announce the new feature
20:05 russel paul: that is a good policy
20:05 paul anyway, we should agree on what is a "major addition" ;-)
20:05 kados2 2. release specifications
20:06 kados2 part of the problem is, until now, many of the core devs haven't had time to read other people's specifications
20:06 kados2 because we are too busy with our own specifications :-)
20:06 kados2 but I can say, that is changing at LibLime
20:06 russel i think it is getting to the stage where we all need to make the time
20:06 kados2 esp with the new Koha Project Jay
20:06 kados2 Day even
20:06 kados2 rusel: exactly
20:07 paul a second part of the problem is that our customers want answers in french, and you don't speak french very well :-D
20:07 kados2 hehe
20:07 russel well i have been talking to Irma in sydney, she has offered to help translate this type of thing
20:07 ryan a defined process for public review of specs before implementation ?
20:07 ryan or is that too restrictive ?
20:07 paul for example, i've written a 33 pages doc about all koha 3.0 new features... waiting for translation...
20:07 paul (irma will do at least a part of the job it seems)
20:08 kados2 right
20:08 cm paul:  i'll do it if noone else wants to.  ;)
20:08 thd kados2: GnuArch is the Savannah supported distributed version control system of which I was thinking as comparable maybe more featurefull than git
20:09 kados2 thd: we looked at arch a while back
20:09 kados2 thd: 2.0.x had some arch repos in fact
20:09 kados2 ok, getting back
20:09 kados2 to the topic at hand
20:10 kados2 what we need I think
20:10 kados2 is to get more users involved
20:10 kados2 in the development process
20:10 kados2 people who work for libraries
20:11 kados2 we need to find some libraries who can directly devote staff time to koha IMO
20:11 thd kados2: the problem is that having you library vendor ask for volunteers is lack asking to be payed twice for support
20:11 kados2 thd: not really
20:11 russel well they probably are devoting a lot of time to koha, but internally
20:12 kados2 thd: because we don't get paid for things related to the project
20:12 kados2 thd: libraries want to pay as little as possible to us, so they just pay for the specific services we provide, like hosting, data migration, development
20:12 thd kados2: I mean as compared to being asked by a foundation
20:13 thd the request will always sound better coming from a foundation
20:13 sanspach russel: exactly  --the key is coordinating things so that their internal work can be made to work for testing and vice versa
20:13 paul i've forgotten a french news !!!
20:13 paul french koha NPO exist !!!
20:13 paul
20:14 paul
20:14 paul search "kohala"
20:14 kados2 wow, great paul!
20:14 kados2 paul: johnb has organized a meeting at ALA this year (in about a week)
20:15 paul the "we need to find some libraries who can directly devote staff time to koha IMO" reminds me this...
20:15 kados2 paul: to discuss a US one
20:15 kados2 yep
20:15 paul yes, i've seen the announce
20:15 kados2 I still think, those are just 'users groups'
20:15 kados2 I'm not sure they are the same as a 'koha software foundation'
20:15 kados2 I've been looking at plone as a model:
20:15 kados2 they have a foundation
20:16 kados2 and it's worked quite well for them
20:16 kados2 but anyway, this is off track
20:16 kados2 and I have a meeting in 15 minutes :(
20:16 kados2 to touch on some points:
20:17 kados2 we don't need to move the IRC channel, we can 'relay' to freenode to increase visibility
20:17 paul 'relay' ???
20:17 kados2 a bot can relay messages from #koha to #koha and back
20:17 kados2 we tested it last week
20:17 kados2 and it works fine
20:18 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: toins
20:18 paul ok. so any of those both chanel are equivalent ?
20:18 kados2 hi toins at freenode :-)
20:18 toins_ hehe
20:18 kados2 paul: yes
20:18 kados2 ok, I'm going out of order
20:18 ryan problem is there's no /who
20:19 kados2 perhaps we will skip 'copyright conventions' and leave that for the next meeting when slef is here
20:19 paul I think the koha-dev thread was clear.
20:19 kados2 the koha-dev thread had some ideas, but no conclusions :-)
20:19 kados2 everyone had a different idea IIRC
20:20 paul Ouch.  Surely that could be replaced by the shorter:
20:20 paul # Copyright 2000-2007 Katipo Communications
20:20 paul # Copyright 2002-2007 Paul Poulain
20:20 paul # Copyright 2004-2007 LibLime
20:20 paul sounds fair
20:20 thd there is a big problem with that form of notice
20:21 ryan i think the code should reference an external document.
20:21 kados2 ryan: that's my thinking lately too
20:21 thd any one of those parties may be able to make a claim on the whole work
20:22 kados2 I have only 10 minutes now
20:22 thd kados2 what else is on the agenda aside from copyright?
20:22 kados2 I think we should skip 'improving' because IIRC tina was going to show something and it's not ready yet
20:22 kados2 so we have two items left:
20:22 kados2 Open Positions in the Community
20:22 kados2 OpenCataloger
20:23 russel you prolly have enough time for one :-) go with OpenCataloger would be my pick
20:23 kados2 hehe
20:23 russel move copyright and positions to next meeting
20:23 tumer seconded
20:23 kados2 russel: sounds good
20:23 russel cos those will require lots of discussion
20:24 kados2
20:24 kados2 that's the project paul and toins created
20:25 kados2 and a new developer has joined the effort, it's the Google Summer of Code programmer Chris Catalfo
20:25 thd I have a concern that the design of opencataloger not dilute the quality and usability of the plugins
20:25 kados2 there's a mailing list too
20:26 kados2 toins has already done a ton of work on this
20:26 kados2 maybe toins can talk about it briefly?
20:26 toins_ humm....
20:27 kados2 (maybe at the same time as toins is talking, everyone can say if this is a good time to meet in two weeks from now)
20:27 toins_ opencataloger is a web based application written in XUL/Javascript for the client side and perl for server side
20:27 kados2 (Monday, July 2nd)
20:27 kados2 (so we can finish the agenda?)
20:27 thd good for me
20:28 cm yep, good for ccfls folks too.
20:28 toins_ its tries to let the cataloger free to do what he wants
20:28 paul july 2nd is OK for me
20:28 ryan ++
20:29 toins_ it s a marc editor for advanced cataloger
20:29 toins_ what more ? Except as kados2 has certainly notify, it not work very well atm
20:30 kados2 it works well, except for saving :-)
20:30 toins_ its can searchs on multiple Z3950 server
20:30 toins_ edit records
20:30 toins_ classify them on an 'finish reservoir' and 'unfinish reservoir'
20:30 kados2 Chris plans to have it working and ready for production by the end of the summer
20:31 thd toins_ it is actually much more efficient than the existing Koha record editor independent of experience
20:31 kados2 alng with toins help of course
20:31 toins_ currently only works well
20:31 ryan toins_++
20:32 kados2 ok, I have to go now
20:32 kados2 thanks everyone
20:32 paul you"re welcome
20:32 kados2 sorry, my travel plans were unexpected
20:32 paul time to go to bed for frenchies
20:32 kados2 it won't happen next time, I promise :-)
20:32 kados2 (but probably ok anyway, to keep meetings short)
20:32 kados2 I'll write a summary
20:32 kados2 and mail to koha-devel
20:32 kados2 and announce the next meeting
20:32 kados2 bye
20:32 toins_ bye
21:52 bureado kados:
22:07 chris heya bess
22:07 bess hi!
22:08 bess wow, there's quite a few people in here
22:08 bess is everyone koha developers or admins?
22:08 chris not everyone but a few of us are
22:08 bess can I ask some koha zoom installation questions?
22:08 chris there are some koha users too .. and people asleep :)
22:09 chris sure
22:09 chris I may or may not be able to answer it :)
22:09 bess so, I'm following the installation instructions...
22:09 chris on the wiki?
22:09 bess I'm following the ones can came with the installation package that kados sent me.
22:09 bess Is there a better set on the wiki?
22:10 bess maybe I should try those
22:10 bess What is the url?
22:10 dewey the url is, like,
22:10 chris ahh kados sent you some ... those are probably better
22:10 bess hmmm... that url doesn't work dewey
22:10 chris the wiki ones are old
22:10 chris dewey is a bot :)
22:10 chris[…]ingzebraplugin226
22:10 bess ah!
22:11 bess so, is koha zoom the same thing as koha 2.2.6?
22:11 chris nope
22:11 bess hi, chris!! Yes, I'm bess sadler
22:12 bess wow, that's cool. :)
22:12 chris koha zoom hasnt had a public release yet
22:12 bess okay, so I'm trying to install koha zoom
22:12 bess are the installation instructions that come with it the right ones to use?
22:12 chris yep, so koha zoom is koha 2.2.x plus the Zebra plugin
22:12 bess ah, okay, making more sense.
22:13 chris if kados sent them, id assume so :)
22:13 bess yes, but he sent them over a month ago
22:13 bess I'm very behind on the project I'm working on
22:13 chris we havent managed to build an easy to install release for koha zoom
22:13 bess right.
22:13 bess See, I'm trying to get you funding to do that. :)
22:13 chris hence no public release
22:13 bess Do you know about library-in-a-box?
22:13 chris but the code is all in cvs
22:13 chris sure do
22:14 chris i heard you talking with talis about it :)
22:14 bess okay, so this is me trying to get it installed so I can report back to the soros foundation
22:14 chris righto
22:14 bess really? you heard that podcast. Cool?
22:14 chris yep
22:14 bess okay, so, something weird...
22:14 chris fire away
22:14 bess Warning: DocumentRoot [/koha/production/intranet/htdocs] does not exist
22:14 bess Warning: DocumentRoot [/koha/production/opac/htdocs] does not exist
22:14 bess And sure enough, they don't exist.
22:15 bess Or, to be more accurate...
22:15 chris ah ha
22:15 bess cgi-bin -> ../rel_3_0/koha/
22:15 bess and there is nothing in rel_3_0/koha
22:15 chris do joshuas instructions include setting up the symlinks?
22:15 bess no
22:15 chris hmm
22:15 bess there is a symlink
22:15 bess but it links to an empty directory
22:16 bess which seems problematic to me.
22:16 chris thats helpful :)
22:16 bess :)
22:16 chris yeah thats not gonna work :)
22:16 bess so did the CVS checkout not work completely?
22:16 bess maybe?
22:16 chris could be
22:17 chris id have to see the instructions
22:17 bess so there is supposed to be stuff in that folder, yes?
22:17 bess What's your email?
22:17 bess I'll send them to you
22:17 chris
22:17 bess hang on...
22:18 chris ta
22:19 bess okay, I just sent them off
22:19 chris cool
22:20 chris right ill quickly read through them
22:20 bess okay, thanks
22:20 bess brb
22:22 bess I'm back
22:22 chris still reading :)
22:22 bess take your time
22:24 chris hmm
22:24 chris so you have a /koha dir
22:25 bess yes
22:25 chris which should have production/ testing/ bin and cron under it ?
22:25 bess hang on..
22:26 bess trying to get my screen arranged so I can type and look at the text window
22:26 chris righto :)
22:26 chris oh and log and etc
22:27 bess yes, /koha has backups bin cron etc log production testing and tmp
22:27 chris right
22:27 chris hmm
22:28 chris and in /koha/production/intranet
22:28 chris there is a symlink to a non existing dir?
22:28 chris and no htdocs?
22:28 bess cgi-bin -> ../rel_3_0/koha/
22:28 bess htdocs -> ../rel_3_0/koha/koha-tmpl
22:28 chris ok
22:29 bess modules
22:29 chris i think we can fix this
22:29 chris if we do
22:29 chris cd /koha/production/cvsrepo/
22:29 bess ok
22:30 chris in there is there a koha/ dir ?
22:30 bess y
22:30 bess hmmm... C4
22:30 bess that's one of my missing directories
22:30 chris and thats our cvs checkout
22:30 bess so is installer
22:30 chris yeah
22:30 chris now what i dont understand is
22:31 chris is why cvs -z3 co -P koha
22:31 chris ahhh i do understand
22:32 bess yes?
22:32 chris he has modified the instustions for koha 3.0 .. but not all the way
22:32 bess ah
22:33 chris can we do a rm -r koha (in  /koha/production/cvsrepo/ )
22:33 bess sure
22:33 bess done
22:33 chris and we will then checkout the dev_week (which is koha zoom)
22:34 bess how do I do that?
22:34 chris cvs -z3 co -r dev_week -P koha
22:35 chris in that directory
22:35 bess from /koha/production/cvsrepo?
22:35 chris thats the one
22:35 chris once thats done we can make or symlinks to the right places
22:35 bess it's downloading
22:35 chris our even
22:35 bess :)
22:36 bess okay, done
22:36 chris speedy
22:36 bess yes, I'm at the uni. :)
22:36 chris much faster than over here to nz
22:36 bess where are you? NZ?
22:36 chris yep
22:36 bess cool.
22:36 chris wellington
22:36 chris ok
22:36 bess I've always wanted to go there
22:37 bess ok, what next?
22:37 chris lets go to /koha/production/intranet
22:37 bess ok
22:37 chris and our htdocs symlink should be htdocs -> /koha/production/cvsrepo/koha/koha-tmpl/
22:38 bess done: htdocs -> /koha/production/cvsrepo/koha/koha-tmpl
22:38 chris cgi-bin -> /koha/production/cvsrepo/koha/
22:38 bess done: cgi-bin -> /koha/production/cvsrepo/koha
22:39 chris now what i do here
22:39 bess what about modules/C4?
22:39 bess same thing, yes?
22:39 chris -> /koha/prodcution/cvsrepo/koha/C4/
22:39 chris yep
22:40 bess okay, done
22:40 chris righto
22:40 chris you got all the perl modules installed, and zebra up and running eh?
22:40 bess yes
22:41 chris in theory .. it might be working now :)
22:41 chris we may have to restart apache
22:41 bess restarting....
22:41 bess hmm... not yet
22:42 bess The requested URL /cgi-bin/koha/installer/ was not found on this server.
22:42 bess http://lab3.betech.virginia.ed[…]taller/
22:42 chris hmm i wonder if he did want you to install koha 3 .. not zoom
22:43 bess I'm still not clear on the distinction
22:43 bess What URL should I go to?
22:43 chris heres what we can do
22:43 bess could there be a problem w/ my httpd config?
22:44 chris no, its fine
22:44 bess I wasn't sure how to setup the virtualhosts, so I just took a guess based on how my other server is set up.
22:44 chris what is confusing me is saying Koha ZOOm but the instructions seem to be for 3.0 (which is the upcoming release ... ok i have a plan)
22:44 bess ok
22:44 chris lets cd back to /koha/production/cvsrepo
22:45 chris mv koha koha_dev_week
22:45 bess ok
22:45 chris cvs -z3 co -P koha
22:45 chris (we will check out 3.0 this time)
22:45 bess ok
22:45 chris our symlinks should all still be good
22:45 bess 3.0 is the upcoming release, right?
22:45 chris yep
22:46 bess drat! no joy. :(
22:46 chris still the same error?
22:46 bess The requested URL /cgi-bin/koha/installer/ was not found on this server.
22:46 chris hmm
22:47 bess hang on...
22:47 bess something is fishy
22:47 chris what does ls /koha/production/intranet/cgi-bin/ say ?
22:47 chris is there an installer dir there?
22:48 bess yes
22:48 bess I think maybe apache is cacheing something
22:48 chris ok and in our httpd.conf
22:48 chris we have
22:48 bess do you want the whole thing?
22:48 chris ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/koha/ /koha/production/intranet/cgi-bin/
22:48 chris ?
22:49 bess in httpd.conf or in /koha/etc/koha-production-httpd.conf?
22:49 chris sorry the latter
22:50 bess no, we have    ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/koha/ "/koha/production/opac/cgi-bin/"
22:50 chris hmm do we have 2 virtualhosts
22:50 chris one for opac one for intranet?
22:50 bess well, I didn't know how to set them up.
22:50 bess So, maybe I didn't do it right
22:50 bess NameVirtualHost *:80
22:51 chris you could email me that file if you wanted
22:51 chris might be easier
22:51 chris and i can edit and send back?
22:51 bess it's already on the way :)
22:51 chris :)
22:53 bess okay, it took me a second to get it sent off
22:53 bess I realized I can't send mail from the actual server
22:53 chris ahh bummer
22:53 bess it's on the way now
22:53 chris koha wont be able to send you overdue notices :-)
22:53 bess good point
22:54 bess I finally got the university to cough up a debian server
22:54 bess we run red hat here and boy was that a fiasco, trying to install this on red hat
22:54 chris yeah its been done, but its not easy .. these are all things we have to overcome to get a nice public release
22:54 chris ok .. so this looks ok to me
22:55 bess but what about the second virtualhost?
22:55 chris the url you are hitting is productionintranet   right?
22:55 bess I don't understand the question
22:55 bess the hostname of the server is
22:55 chris ah ha
22:56 bess I'm missing a vital concept, aren't i?
22:56 chris :)
22:56 chris yeah that will take you to the opac
22:56 bess so how do I get to the other?
22:56 bess it says ServerName productionintranet
22:56 bess I see that now
22:56 chris yeah
22:56 bess how should I change it?
22:57 bess I mean, we don't have anything called productionintranet registered w/ DNS
22:57 chris now is it possible to get a nice person who looks after your dns is
22:57 chris to set up
22:57 chris
22:57 chris and
22:57 bess Oh, I have an alias!
22:57 chris
22:58 bess
22:58 bess will that do?
22:58 chris then you can change the servernames
22:58 chris sure lets try that
22:58 bess =
22:58 chris change the productionintranet to be
22:58 dewey chris: that doesn't look right
22:59 chris ssh dewey
22:59 bess   ServerName
22:59 bess for the intranet
22:59 chris yep
22:59 bess is that right?
22:59 chris and restart apache
22:59 bess restarting...
22:59 chris and in theory
22:59 chris = intranet
22:59 chris = opac
23:00 bess dammit
23:00 bess same error
23:00 bess The requested URL /cgi-bin/koha/installer/ was not found on this server.
23:00 chris still defaulting to the opac?
23:00 bess http://koha.betech.virginia.ed[…]taller/
23:00 chris hmm
23:01 chris ok
23:01 bess How should the top part of the file be?
23:01 bess oh wait!
23:01 chris is there any other error in the main apache2 error log?
23:01 bess Yes, I broke the top part of the file, and when I changed it back it started working!
23:01 chris yay
23:01 bess NameVirtualHost *
23:01 bess that's what it should say
23:02 bess I changed it to NameVirtualHost *:80
23:02 bess because that's how our other apache configs are setup
23:02 bess but look, it gives a warning when you restart apache:
23:02 chris cool, and now its happy? koha->intranet lab3->opac ?
23:02 bess Forcing reload of web server (apache2)...[Mon Jun 18 10:58:57 2007] [warn] NameVirtualHost *:0 has no VirtualHosts
23:03 chris yeah we can ignore that i think
23:03 bess I don't know, I haven't run the installer yet.
23:03 bess What's the login / pass?
23:03 bess Is it the mysql?
23:03 chris ahh whatever you set up in your koha.xml
23:03 chris and used when you made your database
23:03 bess I didn't change it
23:03 bess hang on...
23:04 bess oh wait
23:04 bess so I'm looking at /production/cvsrepo/koha/misc/koha.xml
23:04 bess yes?
23:05 chris ahh /koha/etc/
23:05 chris i there i think
23:05 bess okay, hang on
23:05 chris koha-production.xml in there
23:06 bess kohaadmin / K0h4R0ck$
23:06 bess right?
23:06 bess but it doesn't work
23:06 chris hmm is there another one further down
23:06 chris actually when you did this step
23:06 bess yes, that's the one
23:06 bess kohaadmin / PASSWORD
23:07 chris does that work?
23:07 bess yes
23:07 chris cool
23:07 bess creating database tables (this is so exciting to get this far!)
23:07 chris :)
23:07 bess dammit!!
23:07 bess The following error occcurred while importing the database structure:
23:07 chris i havent done a 3.0 install .. so from here is all new to me
23:08 bess Unknown suffix '-' used for variable 'port' (value '-u')
23:08 bess mysql: Error while setting value '-u' to 'port'
23:08 chris ahh that looks like a bug in the installer
23:08 bess "Please contact your system administrator" <--- so helpful! :)
23:08 chris heh
23:08 bess so this must be happening in, right?
23:08 chris does the error log tell you anything
23:09 chris if it does and it has a linenumber i can go inspect the code
23:09 chris and maybe fix, then a cvs update should sort you out
23:09 bess Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at /koha/production/intranet/cgi
23:09 bess in/installer/ line 339., referer: http://koha.betech.virginia.ed[…]
23:10 chris ahh thats a warn, we can ignore that one
23:10 bess that's the only error
23:10 chris darn
23:10 chris ill have a quick look
23:10 bess how do you know it's a warn?
23:10 chris use of uniinitialzed value is always a warn
23:11 bess oh
23:11 chris ok
23:12 chris in ur koha-production.xml file
23:12 bess yes?
23:12 chris is there a hostname line?
23:12 bess hang on
23:13 bess yes. localhost
23:13 chris k
23:13 bess that should be right
23:15 chris yep
23:15 bess        my $str = qx(mysql -h $info{hostname} -P $info{port} -u $info{user} -p$info{password} $info{dbname} <$filename 2>&1);
23:15 bess I bet there is no value for port
23:15 chris yeah
23:15 chris good spotting
23:15 bess That would make that line read as -P -u username
23:15 bess which would throw that error
23:15 chris yep
23:16 bess there's no place to set port in the koha.xml file
23:16 chris right
23:16 chris and if we look at the koha.xml in our cvs repo .. is there one there?
23:16 bess hang on
23:16 chris if so, we can copy and paste it ,.. and see if that fixes it
23:17 bess where would that be?
23:17 chris /production/cvsrepo/koha/misc/koha.xml
23:19 bess no
23:19 bess can I just hack it and put in 3306?
23:19 chris sure lets try that :)
23:20 bess        my $str = qx(mysql -h $info{hostname} -P 3306 -u $info{user} -p$info{password} $info{dbname} <$filename 2>&1);
23:21 bess Database tables created
23:21 bess :)
23:22 bess i'm installing all the optional stuff...
23:22 bess hope that's okay
23:23 chris your guess is as good as mine a this point :)
23:25 bess everything worked except importing authorities
23:25 chris ahh
23:25 bess Congratulations, Installation complete
23:26 bess whatever that means. :)
23:26 chris yippy skippy
23:26 chris i wonder what happens when you hit
23:26 chris or lab3.
23:27 bess redirects me to
23:27 bess which just says: It works!
23:27 bess apache default
23:28 chris ah we may have to do some more apache config trickery maybe put that as the servername
23:28 chris in the opac
23:28 chris does the koha. one get you into the intranet/librarian interface?
23:29 bess no
23:29 bess it redirects me to http://koha.betech.virginia.ed[…]
23:29 bess apache config weirdness, you think?
23:29 chris hmmm i thought it said we were finished
23:29 bess it did
23:29 chris :)
23:30 bess but then it reloaded the page automatically and we were back at http://koha.betech.virginia.ed[…]
23:30 chris ok does http://koha.betech.virginia.ed[…]/koha/ work?
23:30 bess and if I go to it takes me there too
23:30 bess it redirects to the same place! weird.
23:31 chris that is weird
23:31 chris lemme look at that config again
23:31 bess want me to send you the updated one?
23:32 chris hmm doesnt seem to be any redirects in there
23:33 chris is there a .htaccess file in /koha/production/intranet/cgi-bin ?
23:33 bess yes
23:33 bess ErrorDocument 400 /cgi-bin/koha/koha-tmpl/errors/
23:33 bess several ErrorDocument declarations
23:33 chris *nod*
23:33 chris any Redirect ones?
23:34 bess no, only the ErrorDocument lines
23:34 chris ok
23:34 bess should I bug Kados about this?
23:34 chris how bout /koha/production/intranet/htdocs ?
23:34 bess You're being so helpful, but I worry that I'm taking up all of your time
23:35 bess no .htaccess file there
23:35 chris we'll give it 10 more mins :)
23:35 bess ok, thanks. :)
23:35 chris hmm
23:35 chris i wonder where the redirect is coming from
23:36 chris lets try a brute force :)
23:36 bess wait!
23:36 bess I found a problem!
23:36 bess we updated the symlinks for the intranet, but not for the opac
23:37 bess cgi-bin -> ../rel_3_0/koha/opac
23:37 bess which doesn't exist
23:37 chris ah yep, the opac isnt going yet, (ie we end up at that apache default page)
23:37 bess I mean, I don't know if this solved our particular problem, but it's something to fix
23:37 chris yep for sure
23:37 chris lets go
23:38 bess so where do the files in /koha/production/opac point to?
23:38 chris cd /koha/
23:38 chris grep -r "Redirect" *
23:38 chris see if we can find this redirect
23:38 bess wait, I will, but I want to fix one thing at a time
23:38 bess where do the sym links in /koha/production/opac go?
23:39 chris ahh i was leaving the opac until we get the intranet going .. but yep we can do it now we will have to change the servername to get the opac to work too
23:39 bess oh, okay that's fine, we can leave it for later
23:39 chris opac/cgi-bin goes to the same place as intranet/cgi-bin
23:39 chris same with htdocs
23:40 chris sorry i lie,
23:40 chris opac/cgi-bin -> /koha/production/cvsrepo/koha/opac/
23:40 chris opac/htdocs ->/koha/production/cvsrepo/koha/koha-tmpl/
23:41 chris thats all of them eh?
23:41 bess yes, that's all of them
23:41 chris cool
23:41 chris and if we change ServerName to lab3. ...
23:42 chris and restart apache, hopefully we get the opac up
23:42 bess wait, change which ServerName?
23:43 chris the opac one
23:43 chris (first one)
23:43 bess it already is lab3
23:43 chris hmm
23:43 chris lets try changing
23:43 bess okay
23:43 chris <VirtualHost *:80>
23:43 chris to
23:44 chris <VirtualHost>
23:44 chris for the first virtual host
23:44 bess okay
23:44 bess restarting
23:44 chris (its not quite the 8 minutes it takes me to install 2.2 :)
23:45 bess hooray!
23:45 chris we have opac? yay
23:45 bess well, not yet
23:45 bess but a different error. :)
23:45 chris heh
23:46 bess I get a list of files... favicon.ico, index.html, intranet-tmpl, intranet.html
23:46 bess if I click on index.html I get a 404
23:46 chris ahh try
23:46 bess If I click on opac.html I get The requested URL /cgi-bin/koha/ was not found on this server.
23:47 chris
23:47 chris (we have a missing redirect there, and one we dont want in the intranet :))
23:47 bess The requested URL /cgi-bin/koha/ was not found on this server.
23:48 chris hmm
23:48 bess let's double check those sym links I made
23:48 chris ls /koha/production/opac/cgi-bin
23:48 chris if its not there
23:48 chris then our symlink is wrong
23:48 bess cgi-bin didn't get the symlink created
23:48 chris ah ha
23:48 bess I could have sworn I changed it
23:48 bess hang on
23:49 bess dammitt!!
23:50 chris it wont stick?
23:50 bess now it's redirecting to The requested URL /cgi-bin/koha/installer/ was not found on this server.
23:50 bess the again!
23:50 bess Only now it tcan't find it
23:50 bess pwd = /koha/production/opac
23:50 bess cgi-bin -> /koha/production/cvsrepo/koha/opac
23:51 chris thats right
23:51 chris ok theres some madness going on with this redirect
23:51 chris lets try our grep
23:51 bess okay
23:51 chris cd /koha/
23:51 bess ok
23:51 chris grep -r "Redirect" *
23:52 chris brb, crying son, just checking if my wife needs a hand
23:52 bess nothing that looks like our culprit:
23:52 bess ok
23:52 bess production/intranet/cgi-bin/misc/   Redirect permanent index.html http://$servername\:$opacpor​t/cgi-bin/koha/
23:52 bess production/intranet/cgi-bin/misc/   Redirect permanent index.html http://$servername\:$intranet​port/cgi-bin/koha/
23:52 bess production/cvsrepo/koha_dev_week/misc/   Redirect permanent index.html http://$servername\:$opacpor​t/cgi-bin/koha/
23:53 bess production/cvsrepo/koha_dev_week/misc/   Redirect permanent index.html http://$servername\:$intranet​port/cgi-bin/koha/
23:53 bess production/cvsrepo/koha/misc/   Redirect permanent index.html http://$servername\:$opacpor​t/cgi-bin/koha/
23:53 bess production/cvsrepo/koha/misc/   Redirect permanent index.html http://$servername\:$intranet​port/cgi-bin/koha/
23:53 chris back
23:53 chris hmm nope those all look right
23:54 chris ah well im afraid im stumped
23:54 chris might have to ask kados
23:54 bess that's okay,  you've been a huge help
23:54 bess I'll email Josh and see if he can help me
23:54 chris cool
23:54 bess Thank you for taking the time,  I really appreaciate it
23:54 bess Go spend time w/ your baby. :)
23:54 chris cc me in if you want, i wouldnt mind knowing the answer :)
23:54 bess okay, I will
23:55 chris ahh its 11.54am here
23:55 bess Ha!
23:55 chris i have to spend time merging in changes to a clients repository :)
23:55 bess I'm grouchy b/c I missed dinner and it's getting too dark to ride hom
23:55 bess home
23:55 bess stayed late at work
23:55 chris ahhh
23:55 bess have a good day, then!
23:55 chris thank, have a good evening, and cya another time :)
23:55 bess okay, bye, and thanks again
11:05 [K] *** join #koha@FreeNode: rangi
11:44 lloyd productive meeting last night?

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