Time  Nick     Message
11:44 lloyd    productive meeting last night?
11:05 [K]      *** join #koha@FreeNode: rangi n=chris@203-118-134-114.netspace.net.nz
23:55 bess     okay, bye, and thanks again
23:55 chris    thank, have a good evening, and cya another time :)
23:55 bess     have a good day, then!
23:55 chris    ahhh
23:55 bess     stayed late at work
23:55 bess     home
23:55 bess     I'm grouchy b/c I missed dinner and it's getting too dark to ride hom
23:55 chris    i have to spend time merging in changes to a clients repository :)
23:55 bess     Ha!
23:55 chris    ahh its 11.54am here
23:54 bess     okay, I will
23:54 chris    cc me in if you want, i wouldnt mind knowing the answer :)
23:54 bess     Go spend time w/ your baby. :)
23:54 bess     Thank you for taking the time,  I really appreaciate it
23:54 chris    cool
23:54 bess     I'll email Josh and see if he can help me
23:54 bess     that's okay,  you've been a huge help
23:54 chris    might have to ask kados
23:54 chris    ah well im afraid im stumped
23:53 chris    hmm nope those all look right
23:53 chris    back
23:53 bess     production/cvsrepo/koha/misc/Install.pm:   Redirect permanent index.html http://$servername\:$intranetport/cgi-bin/koha/mainpage.pl
23:53 bess     production/cvsrepo/koha/misc/Install.pm:   Redirect permanent index.html http://$servername\:$opacport/cgi-bin/koha/opac-main.pl
23:53 bess     production/cvsrepo/koha_dev_week/misc/Install.pm:   Redirect permanent index.html http://$servername\:$intranetport/cgi-bin/koha/mainpage.pl
23:52 bess     production/cvsrepo/koha_dev_week/misc/Install.pm:   Redirect permanent index.html http://$servername\:$opacport/cgi-bin/koha/opac-main.pl
23:52 bess     production/intranet/cgi-bin/misc/Install.pm:   Redirect permanent index.html http://$servername\:$intranetport/cgi-bin/koha/mainpage.pl
23:52 bess     production/intranet/cgi-bin/misc/Install.pm:   Redirect permanent index.html http://$servername\:$opacport/cgi-bin/koha/opac-main.pl
23:52 bess     ok
23:52 bess     nothing that looks like our culprit:
23:52 chris    brb, crying son, just checking if my wife needs a hand
23:51 chris    grep -r "Redirect" *
23:51 bess     ok
23:51 chris    cd /koha/
23:51 bess     okay
23:51 chris    lets try our grep
23:51 chris    ok theres some madness going on with this redirect
23:51 chris    thats right
23:50 bess     cgi-bin -> /koha/production/cvsrepo/koha/opac
23:50 bess     pwd = /koha/production/opac
23:50 bess     Only now it tcan't find it
23:50 bess     the install.pl again!
23:50 bess     now it's redirecting to The requested URL /cgi-bin/koha/installer/install.pl was not found on this server.
23:50 chris    it wont stick?
23:49 bess     dammitt!!
23:48 bess     hang on
23:48 bess     I could have sworn I changed it
23:48 chris    ah ha
23:48 bess     cgi-bin didn't get the symlink created
23:48 chris    then our symlink is wrong
23:48 chris    if its not there
23:48 chris    ls /koha/production/opac/cgi-bin
23:48 bess     let's double check those sym links I made
23:48 chris    hmm
23:47 bess     The requested URL /cgi-bin/koha/opac-main.pl was not found on this server.
23:47 chris    (we have a missing redirect there, and one we dont want in the intranet :))
23:47 chris    lab3.betech.virginia.edu/cgi-bin/koha/opac-main.pl
23:46 bess     If I click on opac.html I get The requested URL /cgi-bin/koha/opac-main.pl was not found on this server.
23:46 chris    ahh try
23:46 bess     if I click on index.html I get a 404
23:46 bess     I get a list of files... favicon.ico, index.html, intranet-tmpl, intranet.html
23:45 chris    heh
23:45 bess     but a different error. :)
23:45 bess     well, not yet
23:45 chris    we have opac? yay
23:45 bess     hooray!
23:44 chris    (its not quite the 8 minutes it takes me to install 2.2 :)
23:44 bess     restarting
23:44 bess     okay
23:44 chris    for the first virtual host
23:44 chris    <VirtualHost lab3.betech.virginia.edu:80>
23:43 chris    to
23:43 chris    <VirtualHost *:80>
23:43 bess     okay
23:43 chris    lets try changing
23:43 chris    hmm
23:43 bess     it already is lab3
23:43 chris    (first one)
23:43 chris    the opac one
23:42 bess     wait, change which ServerName?
23:42 chris    and restart apache, hopefully we get the opac up
23:41 chris    and if we change ServerName to lab3. ...
23:41 chris    cool
23:41 bess     yes, that's all of them
23:41 chris    thats all of them eh?
23:40 chris    opac/htdocs ->/koha/production/cvsrepo/koha/koha-tmpl/
23:40 chris    opac/cgi-bin -> /koha/production/cvsrepo/koha/opac/
23:40 chris    sorry i lie,
23:39 chris    same with htdocs
23:39 chris    opac/cgi-bin goes to the same place as intranet/cgi-bin
23:39 bess     oh, okay that's fine, we can leave it for later
23:39 chris    ahh i was leaving the opac until we get the intranet going .. but yep we can do it now we will have to change the servername to get the opac to work too
23:38 bess     where do the sym links in /koha/production/opac go?
23:38 bess     wait, I will, but I want to fix one thing at a time
23:38 chris    see if we can find this redirect
23:38 chris    grep -r "Redirect" *
23:38 chris    cd /koha/
23:38 bess     so where do the files in /koha/production/opac point to?
23:37 chris    lets go
23:37 chris    yep for sure
23:37 bess     I mean, I don't know if this solved our particular problem, but it's something to fix
23:37 chris    ah yep, the opac isnt going yet, (ie we end up at that apache default page)
23:37 bess     which doesn't exist
23:37 bess     cgi-bin -> ../rel_3_0/koha/opac
23:36 bess     we updated the symlinks for the intranet, but not for the opac
23:36 bess     I found a problem!
23:36 bess     wait!
23:36 chris    lets try a brute force :)
23:35 chris    i wonder where the redirect is coming from
23:35 chris    hmm
23:35 bess     ok, thanks. :)
23:35 chris    we'll give it 10 more mins :)
23:35 bess     no .htaccess file there
23:34 bess     You're being so helpful, but I worry that I'm taking up all of your time
23:34 chris    how bout /koha/production/intranet/htdocs ?
23:34 bess     should I bug Kados about this?
23:34 chris    ok
23:34 bess     no, only the ErrorDocument lines
23:33 chris    any Redirect ones?
23:33 chris    *nod*
23:33 bess     several ErrorDocument declarations
23:33 bess     ErrorDocument 400 /cgi-bin/koha/koha-tmpl/errors/400.pl
23:33 bess     yes
23:33 chris    is there a .htaccess file in /koha/production/intranet/cgi-bin ?
23:32 chris    hmm doesnt seem to be any redirects in there
23:31 bess     want me to send you the updated one?
23:31 chris    lemme look at that config again
23:31 chris    that is weird
23:30 bess     it redirects to the same place! weird.
23:30 bess     and if I go to http://koha.betech.virginia.edu it takes me there too
23:30 chris    ok does http://koha.betech.virginia.edu/cgi-bin/koha/mainpage.pl work?
23:30 bess     but then it reloaded the page automatically and we were back at http://koha.betech.virginia.edu/cgi-bin/koha/installer/install.pl?step=3
23:29 chris    :)
23:29 bess     it did
23:29 chris    hmmm i thought it said we were finished
23:29 bess     apache config weirdness, you think?
23:29 bess     it redirects me to http://koha.betech.virginia.edu/cgi-bin/koha/installer/install.pl?step=3
23:29 bess     no
23:28 chris    does the koha. one get you into the intranet/librarian interface?
23:28 chris    in the opac
23:28 chris    ah we may have to do some more apache config trickery maybe put that as the servername
23:27 bess     apache default
23:27 bess     which just says: It works!
23:27 bess     lab3.betech.virginia.edu redirects me to http://lab3.betech.virginia.edu/apache2-default/
23:26 chris    or lab3.
23:26 chris    i wonder what happens when you hit http://koha.betech.virginia.edu/
23:26 chris    yippy skippy
23:26 bess     whatever that means. :)
23:25 bess     Congratulations, Installation complete
23:25 chris    ahh
23:25 bess     everything worked except importing authorities
23:23 chris    your guess is as good as mine a this point :)
23:22 bess     hope that's okay
23:22 bess     i'm installing all the optional stuff...
23:21 bess     :)
23:21 bess     Database tables created
23:20 bess             my $str = qx(mysql -h $info{hostname} -P 3306 -u $info{user} -p$info{password} $info{dbname} <$filename 2>&1);
23:19 chris    sure lets try that :)
23:19 bess     can I just hack it and put in 3306?
23:19 bess     no
23:17 chris     /production/cvsrepo/koha/misc/koha.xml
23:17 bess     where would that be?
23:16 chris    if so, we can copy and paste it ,.. and see if that fixes it
23:16 bess     hang on
23:16 chris    and if we look at the koha.xml in our cvs repo .. is there one there?
23:16 chris    right
23:16 bess     there's no place to set port in the koha.xml file
23:15 chris    yep
23:15 bess     which would throw that error
23:15 bess     That would make that line read as -P -u username
23:15 chris    good spotting
23:15 chris    yeah
23:15 bess     I bet there is no value for port
23:15 bess             my $str = qx(mysql -h $info{hostname} -P $info{port} -u $info{user} -p$info{password} $info{dbname} <$filename 2>&1);
23:15 chris    yep
23:13 bess     that should be right
23:13 chris    k
23:13 bess     yes. localhost
23:12 bess     hang on
23:12 chris    is there a hostname line?
23:12 bess     yes?
23:12 chris    in ur koha-production.xml file
23:11 chris    ok
23:11 bess     oh
23:10 chris    use of uniinitialzed value is always a warn
23:10 bess     how do you know it's a warn?
23:10 chris    ill have a quick look
23:10 chris    darn
23:10 bess     that's the only error
23:10 chris    ahh thats a warn, we can ignore that one
23:09 bess     in/installer/install.pl line 339., referer: http://koha.betech.virginia.edu/cgi-bin/koha/installer/install.pl?step=3
23:09 bess     Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at /koha/production/intranet/cgi
23:09 chris    and maybe fix, then a cvs update should sort you out
23:09 chris    if it does and it has a linenumber i can go inspect the code
23:08 chris    does the error log tell you anything
23:08 bess     so this must be happening in install.pl, right?
23:08 chris    heh
23:08 bess     "Please contact your system administrator" <--- so helpful! :)
23:08 chris    ahh that looks like a bug in the installer
23:08 bess     mysql: Error while setting value '-u' to 'port'
23:08 bess     Unknown suffix '-' used for variable 'port' (value '-u')
23:07 chris    i havent done a 3.0 install .. so from here is all new to me
23:07 bess     The following error occcurred while importing the database structure:
23:07 bess     dammit!!
23:07 chris    :)
23:07 bess     creating database tables (this is so exciting to get this far!)
23:07 chris    cool
23:07 bess     yes
23:07 chris    does that work?
23:06 bess     kohaadmin / PASSWORD
23:06 bess     yes, that's the one
23:06 chris    actually when you did this step
23:06 chris    hmm is there another one further down
23:06 bess     but it doesn't work
23:06 bess     right?
23:06 bess     kohaadmin / K0h4R0ck$
23:05 chris    koha-production.xml in there
23:05 bess     okay, hang on
23:05 chris    i there i think
23:05 chris    ahh /koha/etc/
23:04 bess     yes?
23:04 bess     so I'm looking at /production/cvsrepo/koha/misc/koha.xml
23:04 bess     oh wait
23:03 bess     hang on...
23:03 bess     I didn't change it
23:03 chris    and used when you made your database
23:03 chris    ahh whatever you set up in your koha.xml
23:03 bess     Is it the mysql?
23:03 bess     What's the login / pass?
23:03 bess     I don't know, I haven't run the installer yet.
23:03 chris    yeah we can ignore that i think
23:02 bess     Forcing reload of web server (apache2)...[Mon Jun 18 10:58:57 2007] [warn] NameVirtualHost *:0 has no VirtualHosts
23:02 chris    cool, and now its happy? koha->intranet lab3->opac ?
23:02 bess     but look, it gives a warning when you restart apache:
23:02 bess     because that's how our other apache configs are setup
23:02 bess     I changed it to NameVirtualHost *:80
23:01 bess     that's what it should say
23:01 bess     NameVirtualHost *
23:01 chris    yay
23:01 bess     Yes, I broke the top part of the file, and when I changed it back it started working!
23:01 chris    is there any other error in the main apache2 error log?
23:01 bess     oh wait!
23:01 bess     How should the top part of the file be?
23:01 chris    ok
23:00 chris    hmm
23:00 bess     http://koha.betech.virginia.edu/cgi-bin/koha/installer/install.pl
23:00 chris    still defaulting to the opac?
23:00 bess     The requested URL /cgi-bin/koha/installer/install.pl was not found on this server.
23:00 bess     same error
23:00 bess     dammit
22:59 chris    lab3.betech.virginia.edu = opac
22:59 chris    koha.betech.virginia.edu = intranet
22:59 chris    and in theory
22:59 bess     restarting...
22:59 chris    and restart apache
22:59 bess     is that right?
22:59 chris    yep
22:59 bess     for the intranet
22:59 bess        ServerName koha.betech.virginia.edu
22:59 chris    ssh dewey
22:58 dewey    chris: that doesn't look right
22:58 chris    change the productionintranet to be koha.betech.virginia.edu
22:58 bess     lab3.betech.virginia.edu = koha.betech.virginia.edu
22:58 chris    sure lets try that
22:58 chris    then you can change the servernames
22:58 bess     will that do?
22:58 bess     koha.betech.virginia.edu
22:57 chris    staff.lab3.betech.virginia.edu
22:57 bess     Oh, I have an alias!
22:57 chris    and
22:57 chris    opac.lab3.betech.virginia.edu
22:57 chris    to set up
22:57 chris    now is it possible to get a nice person who looks after your dns is
22:57 bess     I mean, we don't have anything called productionintranet registered w/ DNS
22:56 bess     how should I change it?
22:56 chris    yeah
22:56 bess     I see that now
22:56 bess     it says ServerName productionintranet
22:56 bess     so how do I get to the other?
22:56 chris    yeah that will take you to the opac
22:56 chris    :)
22:56 bess     I'm missing a vital concept, aren't i?
22:55 chris    ah ha
22:55 bess     the hostname of the server is lab3.betech.virginia.edu
22:55 bess     I don't understand the question
22:55 chris    the url you are hitting is productionintranet   right?
22:55 bess     but what about the second virtualhost?
22:54 chris    ok .. so this looks ok to me
22:54 chris    yeah its been done, but its not easy .. these are all things we have to overcome to get a nice public release
22:54 bess     we run red hat here and boy was that a fiasco, trying to install this on red hat
22:54 bess     I finally got the university to cough up a debian server
22:53 bess     good point
22:53 chris    koha wont be able to send you overdue notices :-)
22:53 bess     it's on the way now
22:53 chris    ahh bummer
22:53 bess     I realized I can't send mail from the actual server
22:53 bess     okay, it took me a second to get it sent off
22:51 chris    :)
22:51 bess     it's already on the way :)
22:51 chris    and i can edit and send back?
22:51 chris    might be easier
22:51 chris    you could email me that file if you wanted
22:50 bess     NameVirtualHost *:80
22:50 bess     So, maybe I didn't do it right
22:50 bess     well, I didn't know how to set them up.
22:50 chris    one for opac one for intranet?
22:50 chris    hmm do we have 2 virtualhosts
22:50 bess     no, we have    ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/koha/ "/koha/production/opac/cgi-bin/"
22:49 chris    sorry the latter
22:49 bess     in httpd.conf or in /koha/etc/koha-production-httpd.conf?
22:48 chris    ?
22:48 chris    ScriptAlias /cgi-bin/koha/ /koha/production/intranet/cgi-bin/
22:48 bess     do you want the whole thing?
22:48 chris    we have
22:48 chris    ok and in our httpd.conf
22:48 bess     I think maybe apache is cacheing something
22:48 bess     yes
22:47 chris    is there an installer dir there?
22:47 chris    what does ls /koha/production/intranet/cgi-bin/ say ?
22:47 bess     something is fishy
22:47 bess     hang on...
22:46 chris    hmm
22:46 bess     The requested URL /cgi-bin/koha/installer/install.pl was not found on this server.
22:46 chris    still the same error?
22:46 bess     drat! no joy. :(
22:45 chris    yep
22:45 bess     3.0 is the upcoming release, right?
22:45 chris    our symlinks should all still be good
22:45 bess     ok
22:45 chris    (we will check out 3.0 this time)
22:45 chris    cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/sources/koha co -P koha
22:45 bess     ok
22:45 chris    mv koha koha_dev_week
22:44 chris    lets cd back to /koha/production/cvsrepo
22:44 bess     ok
22:44 chris    what is confusing me is saying Koha ZOOm but the instructions seem to be for 3.0 (which is the upcoming release ... ok i have a plan)
22:44 bess     I wasn't sure how to setup the virtualhosts, so I just took a guess based on how my other server is set up.
22:44 chris    no, its fine
22:43 bess     could there be a problem w/ my httpd config?
22:43 chris    heres what we can do
22:43 bess     What URL should I go to?
22:43 bess     I'm still not clear on the distinction
22:42 chris    hmm i wonder if he did want you to install koha 3 .. not zoom
22:42 bess     http://lab3.betech.virginia.edu/cgi-bin/koha/installer/install.pl
22:42 bess     The requested URL /cgi-bin/koha/installer/install.pl was not found on this server.
22:41 bess     hmm... not yet
22:41 bess     restarting....
22:41 chris    we may have to restart apache
22:41 chris    in theory .. it might be working now :)
22:40 bess     yes
22:40 chris    you got all the perl modules installed, and zebra up and running eh?
22:40 chris    righto
22:40 bess     okay, done
22:39 chris    yep
22:39 chris     -> /koha/prodcution/cvsrepo/koha/C4/
22:39 bess     same thing, yes?
22:39 bess     what about modules/C4?
22:39 chris    now what i do here
22:38 bess     done: cgi-bin -> /koha/production/cvsrepo/koha
22:38 chris    cgi-bin -> /koha/production/cvsrepo/koha/
22:38 bess     done: htdocs -> /koha/production/cvsrepo/koha/koha-tmpl
22:37 chris    and our htdocs symlink should be htdocs -> /koha/production/cvsrepo/koha/koha-tmpl/
22:37 bess     ok
22:37 chris    lets go to /koha/production/intranet
22:37 bess     ok, what next?
22:36 bess     I've always wanted to go there
22:36 chris    ok
22:36 chris    wellington
22:36 bess     cool.
22:36 chris    yep
22:36 bess     where are you? NZ?
22:36 chris    much faster than over here to nz
22:36 bess     yes, I'm at the uni. :)
22:36 chris    speedy
22:36 bess     okay, done
22:35 bess     :)
22:35 chris    our even
22:35 bess     it's downloading
22:35 chris    once thats done we can make or symlinks to the right places
22:35 chris    thats the one
22:35 bess     from /koha/production/cvsrepo?
22:35 chris    in that directory
22:34 chris    cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/sources/koha co -r dev_week -P koha
22:34 bess     how do I do that?
22:33 chris    and we will then checkout the dev_week (which is koha zoom)
22:33 bess     done
22:33 bess     sure
22:33 chris    can we do a rm -r koha (in  /koha/production/cvsrepo/ )
22:32 bess     ah
22:32 chris    he has modified the instustions for koha 3.0 .. but not all the way
22:32 bess     yes?
22:31 chris    ahhh i do understand
22:31 chris    is why cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.savannah.nongnu.org:/sources/koha co -P koha
22:30 chris    now what i dont understand is
22:30 chris    yeah
22:30 bess     so is installer
22:30 chris    and thats our cvs checkout
22:30 bess     that's one of my missing directories
22:30 bess     hmmm... C4
22:30 bess     y
22:30 chris    in there is there a koha/ dir ?
22:29 bess     ok
22:29 chris    cd /koha/production/cvsrepo/
22:29 chris    if we do
22:29 chris    i think we can fix this
22:29 bess     modules
22:28 chris    ok
22:28 bess     htdocs -> ../rel_3_0/koha/koha-tmpl
22:28 bess     cgi-bin -> ../rel_3_0/koha/
22:28 chris    and no htdocs?
22:28 chris    there is a symlink to a non existing dir?
22:28 chris    and in /koha/production/intranet
22:27 chris    hmm
22:27 chris    right
22:27 bess     yes, /koha has backups bin cron etc log production testing and tmp
22:26 chris    oh and log and etc
22:26 chris    righto :)
22:26 bess     trying to get my screen arranged so I can type and look at the text window
22:25 bess     hang on..
22:25 chris    which should have production/ testing/ bin and cron under it ?
22:25 bess     yes
22:24 chris    so you have a /koha dir
22:24 chris    hmm
22:22 bess     take your time
22:22 chris    still reading :)
22:22 bess     I'm back
22:20 bess     brb
22:20 bess     okay, thanks
22:20 chris    right ill quickly read through them
22:19 chris    cool
22:19 bess     okay, I just sent them off
22:18 chris    ta
22:17 bess     hang on...
22:17 chris    crc@liblime.com
22:17 bess     I'll send them to you
22:17 bess     What's your email?
22:17 bess     so there is supposed to be stuff in that folder, yes?
22:17 chris    id have to see the instructions
22:16 chris    could be
22:16 bess     maybe?
22:16 bess     so did the CVS checkout not work completely?
22:16 chris    yeah thats not gonna work :)
22:16 bess     :)
22:16 chris    thats helpful :)
22:16 bess     which seems problematic to me.
22:15 bess     but it links to an empty directory
22:15 bess     there is a symlink
22:15 chris    hmm
22:15 bess     no
22:15 chris    do joshuas instructions include setting up the symlinks?
22:15 bess     and there is nothing in rel_3_0/koha
22:15 bess     cgi-bin -> ../rel_3_0/koha/
22:15 chris    ah ha
22:15 bess     Or, to be more accurate...
22:14 bess     And sure enough, they don't exist.
22:14 bess     Warning: DocumentRoot [/koha/production/opac/htdocs] does not exist
22:14 bess     Warning: DocumentRoot [/koha/production/intranet/htdocs] does not exist
22:14 chris    fire away
22:14 bess     okay, so, something weird...
22:14 chris    yep
22:14 bess     really? you heard that podcast. Cool?
22:14 chris    righto
22:14 bess     okay, so this is me trying to get it installed so I can report back to the soros foundation
22:14 chris    i heard you talking with talis about it :)
22:13 chris    sure do
22:13 chris    but the code is all in cvs
22:13 bess     Do you know about library-in-a-box?
22:13 chris    hence no public release
22:13 bess     See, I'm trying to get you funding to do that. :)
22:13 bess     right.
22:13 chris    we havent managed to build an easy to install release for koha zoom
22:13 bess     I'm very behind on the project I'm working on
22:13 bess     yes, but he sent them over a month ago
22:13 chris    if kados sent them, id assume so :)
22:12 bess     ah, okay, making more sense.
22:12 chris    yep, so koha zoom is koha 2.2.x plus the Zebra plugin
22:12 bess     are the installation instructions that come with it the right ones to use?
22:12 bess     okay, so I'm trying to install koha zoom
22:12 chris    koha zoom hasnt had a public release yet
22:12 bess     wow, that's cool. :)
22:11 bess     hi, chris!! Yes, I'm bess sadler
22:11 chris    nope
22:11 bess     so, is koha zoom the same thing as koha 2.2.6?
22:10 bess     ah!
22:10 chris    http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=installingzebraplugin226
22:10 chris    dewey is a bot :)
22:10 chris    the wiki ones are old
22:10 bess     hmmm... that url doesn't work dewey
22:10 chris    ahh kados sent you some ... those are probably better
22:10 dewey    the url is, like, http://bugs.koha.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/
22:10 bess     What is the url?
22:10 bess     maybe I should try those
22:09 bess     Is there a better set on the wiki?
22:09 bess     I'm following the ones can came with the installation package that kados sent me.
22:09 chris    on the wiki?
22:09 bess     so, I'm following the installation instructions...
22:09 chris    I may or may not be able to answer it :)
22:09 chris    sure
22:08 chris    there are some koha users too .. and people asleep :)
22:08 bess     can I ask some koha zoom installation questions?
22:08 chris    not everyone but a few of us are
22:08 bess     is everyone koha developers or admins?
22:08 bess     wow, there's quite a few people in here
22:07 bess     hi!
22:07 chris     heya bess
21:52 bureado  kados:
20:32 toins_   bye
20:32 kados2   bye
20:32 kados2   and announce the next meeting
20:32 kados2   and mail to koha-devel
20:32 kados2   I'll write a summary
20:32 kados2   (but probably ok anyway, to keep meetings short)
20:32 kados2   it won't happen next time, I promise :-)
20:32 paul     time to go to bed for frenchies
20:32 kados2   sorry, my travel plans were unexpected
20:32 paul     you"re welcome
20:32 kados2   thanks everyone
20:32 kados2   ok, I have to go now
20:31 ryan     toins_++
20:31 toins_   currently only saveToKoha22.pl works well
20:31 kados2   alng with toins help of course
20:31 thd      toins_ it is actually much more efficient than the existing Koha record editor independent of experience
20:30 kados2   Chris plans to have it working and ready for production by the end of the summer
20:30 toins_   classify them on an 'finish reservoir' and 'unfinish reservoir'
20:30 toins_   edit records
20:30 toins_   its can searchs on multiple Z3950 server
20:30 kados2   it works well, except for saving :-)
20:29 toins_   what more ? Except as kados2 has certainly notify, it not work very well atm
20:29 toins_   it s a marc editor for advanced cataloger
20:28 ryan     ++
20:28 paul     july 2nd is OK for me
20:28 toins_   its tries to let the cataloger free to do what he wants
20:28 cm       yep, good for ccfls folks too.
20:27 thd      good for me
20:27 kados2   (so we can finish the agenda?)
20:27 kados2   (Monday, July 2nd)
20:27 toins_   opencataloger is a web based application written in XUL/Javascript for the client side and perl for server side
20:27 kados2   (maybe at the same time as toins is talking, everyone can say if this is a good time to meet in two weeks from now)
20:26 toins_   humm....
20:26 kados2   maybe toins can talk about it briefly?
20:26 kados2   toins has already done a ton of work on this
20:25 kados2   there's a mailing list too
20:25 thd      I have a concern that the design of opencataloger not dilute the quality and usability of the plugins
20:25 kados2   and a new developer has joined the effort, it's the Google Summer of Code programmer Chris Catalfo
20:24 kados2   that's the project paul and toins created
20:24 kados2   https://gna.org/projects/opencataloger
20:23 russel   cos those will require lots of discussion
20:23 kados2   russel: sounds good
20:23 tumer    seconded
20:23 russel   move copyright and positions to next meeting
20:23 kados2   hehe
20:23 russel   you prolly have enough time for one :-) go with OpenCataloger would be my pick
20:22 kados2   OpenCataloger
20:22 kados2   Open Positions in the Community
20:22 kados2   so we have two items left:
20:22 kados2   I think we should skip 'improving koha.org' because IIRC tina was going to show something and it's not ready yet
20:22 thd      kados2 what else is on the agenda aside from copyright?
20:22 kados2   I have only 10 minutes now
20:21 thd      any one of those parties may be able to make a claim on the whole work
20:21 kados2   ryan: that's my thinking lately too
20:21 ryan     i think the code should reference an external document.
20:20 thd      there is a big problem with that form of notice
20:20 paul     sounds fair
20:20 paul     # Copyright 2004-2007 LibLime
20:20 paul     # Copyright 2002-2007 Paul Poulain
20:20 paul     # Copyright 2000-2007 Katipo Communications
20:20 paul     Ouch.  Surely that could be replaced by the shorter:
20:19 kados2   everyone had a different idea IIRC
20:19 kados2   the koha-dev thread had some ideas, but no conclusions :-)
20:19 paul     I think the koha-dev thread was clear.
20:19 kados2   perhaps we will skip 'copyright conventions' and leave that for the next meeting when slef is here
20:18 ryan     problem is there's no /who
20:18 kados2   ok, I'm going out of order
20:18 kados2   paul: yes
20:18 toins_   hehe
20:18 kados2   hi toins at freenode :-)
20:18 paul     ok. so any of those both chanel are equivalent ?
20:18 [K]      *** join #koha@FreeNode: toins n=toins@AMarseille-251-1-59-126.w83-197.abo.wanadoo.fr
20:17 kados2   and it works fine
20:17 kados2   we tested it last week
20:17 kados2   a bot can relay messages from irc.freenode.net #koha to irc.katipo.co.nz #koha and back
20:17 paul     'relay' ???
20:17 kados2   we don't need to move the IRC channel, we can 'relay' to freenode to increase visibility
20:16 kados2   to touch on some points:
20:16 kados2   and I have a meeting in 15 minutes :(
20:16 kados2   but anyway, this is off track
20:16 kados2   and it's worked quite well for them
20:15 kados2   they have a foundation
20:15 kados2   I've been looking at plone as a model: plone.org
20:15 kados2   I'm not sure they are the same as a 'koha software foundation'
20:15 kados2   I still think, those are just 'users groups'
20:15 paul     yes, i've seen the announce
20:15 kados2   yep
20:15 kados2   paul: to discuss a US one
20:15 paul     the "we need to find some libraries who can directly devote staff time to koha IMO" reminds me this...
20:14 kados2   paul: johnb has organized a meeting at ALA this year (in about a week)
20:14 kados2   wow, great paul!
20:14 paul     search "kohala"
20:14 paul     www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/association/
20:13 paul     www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr
20:13 paul     french koha NPO exist !!!
20:13 paul     i've forgotten a french news !!!
20:13 sanspach russel: exactly  --the key is coordinating things so that their internal work can be made to work for testing and vice versa
20:13 thd      the request will always sound better coming from a foundation
20:12 thd      kados2: I mean as compared to being asked by a foundation
20:12 kados2   thd: libraries want to pay as little as possible to us, so they just pay for the specific services we provide, like hosting, data migration, development
20:12 kados2   thd: because we don't get paid for things related to the project
20:11 russel   well they probably are devoting a lot of time to koha, but internally
20:11 kados2   thd: not really
20:11 thd      kados2: the problem is that having you library vendor ask for volunteers is lack asking to be payed twice for support
20:11 kados2   we need to find some libraries who can directly devote staff time to koha IMO
20:10 kados2   people who work for libraries
20:10 kados2   in the development process
20:10 kados2   is to get more users involved
20:10 kados2   what we need I think
20:09 kados2   to the topic at hand
20:09 kados2   ok, getting back
20:09 kados2   thd: 2.0.x had some arch repos in fact
20:09 kados2   thd: we looked at arch a while back
20:08 thd      kados2: GnuArch is the Savannah supported distributed version control system of which I was thinking as comparable maybe more featurefull than git
20:08 cm       paul:  i'll do it if noone else wants to.  ;)
20:08 kados2   right
20:07 paul     (irma will do at least a part of the job it seems)
20:07 paul     for example, i've written a 33 pages doc about all koha 3.0 new features... waiting for translation...
20:07 ryan     or is that too restrictive ?
20:07 ryan     a defined process for public review of specs before implementation ?
20:07 russel   well i have been talking to Irma in sydney, she has offered to help translate this type of thing
20:07 kados2   hehe
20:07 paul     a second part of the problem is that our customers want answers in french, and you don't speak french very well :-D
20:06 kados2   rusel: exactly
20:06 kados2   Day even
20:06 kados2   esp with the new Koha Project Jay
20:06 russel   i think it is getting to the stage where we all need to make the time
20:06 kados2   but I can say, that is changing at LibLime
20:06 kados2   because we are too busy with our own specifications :-)
20:06 kados2   part of the problem is, until now, many of the core devs haven't had time to read other people's specifications
20:05 kados2   2. release specifications
20:05 paul     anyway, we should agree on what is a "major addition" ;-)
20:05 russel   paul: that is a good policy
20:05 kados2   1. announce the new feature
20:05 kados2   so maybe we need to:
20:05 paul     speaking of major additions, I share before writing them.
20:04 russel   or just before you commit it?
20:04 kados2   paul: we have announced major features, but we haven't really been good about defining them ahead of time
20:04 tumer    paul you war that you added not adding?
20:04 russel   when you start working on it
20:04 russel   well when do you give the warning?
20:04 paul     I don't remember having added a major feature without warning on koha-dev before. So it's not a big job ;-)
20:04 cm       perhaps use a centralized tasklist on the wiki or somesuch?
20:04 kados2   russel: I completely agree
20:03 russel   i dont think we do enough of that is my concern
20:03 russel   tumer++
20:03 kados2   russel: I think tumer's right, we need to be better about declaring our intentions on the koha-devel channel
20:03 tumer    3. share work
20:03 tumer    2. discuss with other interested parties
20:03 thd      I think there is a namespace concern if they may not be compatible
20:03 russel   or are we just going to have to reconcile that there will be duplicated effort from time to time?
20:03 tumer    1. declare your intention of developing a module
20:02 kados2   russel: depends on what you mean by 'manage'
20:02 russel   how do we manage when two sets of developers are working on similar features at the same time?
20:01 thd      s/libraries/library's/
20:01 russel   bigger picture
20:01 russel   ok so step back from ACQ for a sec
20:01 paul     so, definetly : NO speaking of SAN-OP plans.
20:01 thd      paul: everything you might expect to manage all parts of a libraries budget control and payments
20:01 paul     maybe/probably
20:01 johnb    We had this conversation in France.  Due to everyones accounting quirks wouldn't it be best to make ACQ a plugin?
20:00 paul     because in france, public structure accounting software are very specific, proprietary, expensive, user-unfriendly, ...
20:00 kados2   ryan: yea
20:00 ryan     so an acqisitions module can be 'installed' into koha
20:00 paul     (maybe you can explain what you call "full accounting system") ?
20:00 thd      I have a suggestion for full accounting
20:00 ryan     i like the idea of modularizing the modules.
20:00 kados2   I think #2 is the only way for acquisitions
19:59 paul     not for us
19:59 kados2   thd: yes, ours is
19:59 thd      Is either looking for a full accounting system?
19:59 kados2   yep
19:59 paul     2 = would be a shame
19:59 paul     1 = maybe, but will require a big coordination, and SAN-OP want something live for 2008, jan
19:58 kados2   2. have two comletely different acquisitions modules
19:58 kados2   1. examine each other's specifications, and decide who will work on what, etc.
19:58 kados2   we could:
19:57 paul     yes, you already told me.
19:57 kados2   paul: some news: we have a large academic library that we have worked with to define some new acquisitions features
19:57 paul     right.
19:57 kados2   snap
19:57 kados2   acquisitions is a good example
19:57 russel   i am thinking of ACQ which everyone seems to want to have a crack at
19:57 kados2   russel: good question
19:56 russel   and how will we handle when two teams are working on a similar feature at the same time?
19:56 kados2   and merged when they are ready
19:56 kados2   they can be created on a branch
19:56 kados2   yes :-)
19:56 paul     (git will help us will be the answer i think ;-) )
19:56 paul     how will we handle major new features that could not be done in just 6 months ?
19:55 paul     about 2. :
19:55 kados2   wow, very productive meeting :-)
19:55 kados2   3. LL will commit to default templates, and we will not have a 2.4, but stay with 2.2
19:55 kados2   2. time-based releases: every two months, alpha, beta, stable
19:55 paul     (even if I'll have to investigate & test your additions anyway, for my customers ;-) )
19:55 kados2   1. moving to git
19:54 kados2   so we have decided:
19:54 kados2   great
19:54 paul     kados2 : yes, i'm OK.
19:54 paul     thd : right. I tried to port mySQL5.0 to 2.2.x, I may have missed some, but a large part of the stuff should be OK
19:54 kados2   paul: is that OK?
19:54 kados2   than to have two branches and another release to manage
19:54 kados2   to get them working with both templates
19:53 kados2   it will be less work in the long run
19:53 thd      paul: what problems do you have in France with 2.4?
19:53 kados2   I will have LL team add to default then
19:53 kados2   ok
19:53 thd      paul: now that Etch is stable I think that 2.2 should have MySQL 5 support
19:53 kados2   right
19:53 paul     so, in france, I have problems with this branch.
19:52 paul     you're right. except your additions have been done on npl templates, and we couldn't test them deeply, even if I asked toins to port them to default templates)
19:52 kados2   (which is necessary even for 2.2, as many people have trouble with 2.2 because they have mysql 5)
19:52 kados2   (liblime editions I think also include mysql 5 support by the way)
19:51 kados2   3.0 branch, based on head
19:51 kados2   2.2 branch, based on 2.2+liblime additions
19:51 kados2   I would prefer only two:
19:51 kados2   hmmm
19:51 paul     - 3.0 branch, based on head.
19:50 paul     - 2.4 branch, based on 2.2+liblime additions (serials, barcode printing, and some others)
19:50 paul     - 2.2 branch, strictly bugfixes
19:50 paul     what I wanted to propose was to have :
19:50 thd      paul: I mean how would issuing a bug fix release be any different?
19:49 kados2   right
19:49 paul     right. It is harder because, as 3.0 was long to come, some ppl have added feature to rel_2_2 ...
19:49 kados2   paul: (as you know for 2.2, this is quite hard )
19:49 paul     thd : ???
19:49 kados2   paul (git will make this easier)
19:48 thd      paul: is not issuing a new release the same as happens now?
19:48 kados2   with only the bug fix
19:48 kados2   so we do 2.2.10b
19:48 kados2   then, a bug is found
19:48 kados2   so we have say 2.2.10
19:48 kados2   paul, yes public releases
19:48 paul     + are you speaking of public releases ?
19:48 kados2   I think that we release the stable version with the bug fix
19:47 kados2   stable - tested, in production at some places
19:47 paul     what if a bug appears in a sept-stable version, that is discovered in, say, november ?
19:47 kados2   beta - most bugs fixed, we think it's stable, please test
19:47 kados2   alpha - maybe some bugs, please test
19:47 kados2   three types of releases
19:47 kados2   I am proposing a change in the release theory, yes
19:46 kados2   and get feedback, and then a stable in sept
19:46 thd      what does time based release mean exactly?
19:46 kados2   (in July)
19:46 paul     so your proposal is to completly change our release theory ?
19:46 kados2   but we can do a beta now
19:45 kados2   until now, with 3.0 it has ben impossible, because it wasn't stable at all
19:45 paul     feature based release : "it will be able when those features will be included, whatever the date"
19:45 kados2   etc.
19:45 kados2   Mar - Stable
19:45 kados2   Jan - beta
19:45 kados2   Nov - Alpha
19:45 kados2   Sept - Stable
19:45 kados2   July - Beta
19:45 kados2   so a new release every two months
19:44 paul     we say "it will be available at this date, we will see with what features"
19:44 kados2   alpha, beta, stable
19:44 kados2   three types of releases
19:44 tumer    time-based?
19:44 kados2   the proposal is release 6 times a year
19:44 paul     time based releases ? I fully agree with this idea...
19:44 tumer    seconded
19:44 kados2   2nd is that I propose to move to time-based releases, starting immediately
19:43 kados2   1st item is that I propose we move to git :-)
19:43 kados2   ok, so I have another item under 'Koha 3.0 release plan'
19:43 ryan     you will like it :)
19:43 ryan     it's very easy to use
19:43 ryan     yes
19:43 paul     a part of git itself you mean ?
19:43 paul     part of git proper ???
19:42 ryan     cogito has largely become a part of git proper
19:42 kados2   (not me, but I think other LLers have played with it)
19:42 paul     do you also use cogito & other git related tools ?
19:42 kados2   and chris will be writing a mail soon explaining the process
19:42 paul     none from me (except that I hope we will find enough time to learn git & other git tools ...)
19:42 kados2   we will plan this soon
19:41 kados2   ok, so if there are no objections
19:41 kados2   chris has been planning how it should work, and considering as well how each library/company will want their own repo
19:41 kados2   you can also 'push' to a shared repository
19:40 paul     I prefer an automatic email, to be sure not to forget ;-)
19:40 ryan     then everyone will pull changes to their repos
19:40 ryan     a commit will generate an email, or the committer might post to koha-devel
19:39 paul     when someone want to tell ppl that something is available on it's repository ?
19:39 paul     what is a "commit" under git ?
19:39 paul     my other question was about how to have an easy to access source code. I think this is the answer ;-)
19:39 kados2   and we can still have an email list for commits
19:38 kados2   it has better views than savannah currently has
19:38 kados2   we will also still have a web version history
19:38 paul     ryan:  ok, understood, thx
19:38 ryan     paul: right, your repo will be master for rel_2_2 , and kados' for head
19:38 kados2   thd: http://git.or.cz/
19:37 kados2   thd I don't know what that is
19:37 thd      kados2: there is a gnu CVS version control system which starts with an ''a'.  How does git differ?
19:37 paul     ?
19:37 paul     with a cvs branch being managed by 1 git local repository (not sure to use the correct terms...)
19:36 kados2   so for people that only want to use CVS, it's OK
19:36 paul     right, but they synch their version with the HEAD one
19:36 kados2   and we can have a CVS front-end
19:36 paul     anyway, if I have directions to help me start, I'm OK to move.
19:36 kados2   paul: yes, but they don't write much code, do they?
19:35 paul     so, the SAN-OP is the only one missing unless i'm missing someone
19:35 kados2   paul: chris can tell us best
19:35 kados2   thd: git is what the linux kernel uses for version control
19:35 kados2   how to decide: I think it's all about concensus among the people who write code in CVS
19:35 thd      kados2: how does git differ from the GNU project which starts with an 'a'
19:35 paul     how will that work (the transition) ?
19:34 kados2   along with documentation on how to use the new setup
19:34 kados2   the CVS=>git transition can be handled by ryan, chris and I
19:34 kados2   I was hoping we could decide today to switch
19:34 kados2   s
19:34 kados2   good question
19:33 paul     how will we decide to switch to git and how will we manage the CVS => git move ?
19:32 kados2   thd: and each developer can have their own repo
19:32 kados2   thd: we can still have a main project repo
19:32 paul     yes, I have one !
19:32 thd      kados2: are local repositories only available locally or are they distributed under git?
19:32 kados2   any questions/concerns/comments?
19:30 kados2   who he trusts to make the decisions
19:30 kados2   if the RM doesn't have time, he can delegate the task to others
19:30 kados2   which will improve our QA as well
19:30 kados2   this will require the RM to be involved in every commit
19:29 kados2   the RM can then branch, pull in the changes, test, and merge with the main tree
19:28 kados2   (similar to a commit, but doesn't affect the RM's version)
19:28 kados2   each person can have version control, and send notices to the RM when a new feature is ready
19:28 kados2   with git, that won't happen
19:28 kados2   it could break something else
19:28 kados2   so every time someone commits something
19:28 kados2   we all run off of one 'stable' CVS branch
19:27 kados2   the way koha version control works now it's very inefficient
19:27 tumer    cool
19:27 ryan     we like it
19:27 tumer    is it any good?
19:27 kados2   except to say that LibLime have been using git internally
19:26 kados2   we'll skip git details until chris gets here
19:26 kados2   so lets move on
19:26 kados2   ok, we have a big agenda
19:26 tumer    http://library.neu.edu.tr/cg-bin/koha/opac-downloads.pl but instructions in Turkish
19:26 thd      tumer: when is the Turkish national library switching to Koha?
19:25 ryan     nice
19:25 kados2   cool tumer
19:25 tumer     doing it next month
19:25 tumer    the result is The Parliament library of Turkey wants us to install it (big library)
19:25 ryan     downloads ?
19:24 ryan     downlodas ?
19:24 tumer    it bulds all necessary files already downloaded 86 times
19:24 toins_   404 not found...
19:23 tumer    ready to download at http://library.neu.edu.tr/cgi-bbin/koha/opac-downlodas
19:23 thd      tumer: can I build your release completely from that?
19:23 paul     wow... I can't believe it !
19:23 kados2   !!
19:23 tumer    zebra,sql in 3 minutes
19:23 kados2   wow, that sounds great tumer
19:23 tumer    it instalss all modules perl
19:23 tumer    i have a zip file for Windows with rel TG
19:22 kados2   anyone else with some news?
19:22 kados2   fantastic paul
19:22 paul     a last one : we should have a new large public library, in New Caledonia, switching to Koha in 2007 (half the size of SAN-OP / NPL)
19:21 paul     another one : SAN-OP just published their RFP for a new acquisition module. we will answer, of course ;-)
19:21 cm       we've been using mantis too.  very handy.
19:21 paul     and that will be our customer entry point for requests.
19:20 kados2   neat
19:20 paul     it's mantis, a bugzilla like, but it's in french, so easier for frenchies to fill.
19:20 paul     we have open suivi.paulpoulain.com to track bugs.
19:20 kados2   very cool
19:20 paul     one with zebra, one without.
19:20 paul     yes, one that I alreday have mailed to koha-devel : 2 libraries are running Koha 3.0 live
19:19 kados2   paul, do you have some news from France?
19:19 kados2   pecisk, great!
19:19 toins_   good point
19:19 kados2   it will be on Sunday/Monday (Sunday for the US office, Monday for the NZ one)
19:18 kados2   and also, the big news everyone heard on the list already, we have  Koha Project Day every week now
19:18 kados2   so this time, I'm announcing that transition is completed
19:18 kados2   last IRC meeting I announced that Liblime was hiring chris, mason and russ from Katipo
19:18 thd      kados2: asking is not forcing
19:17 pecisk   I could do translating and testing, but not much developer time for now, but I hope for more in future
19:17 kados2   I will start
19:17 kados2   news from developers?
19:17 kados2   so we'll move on
19:17 kados2   ok, well don't want to force anyone else to announce themselves
19:17 pecisk   thanks :)
19:16 kados2   pecisk: welcome to Koha
19:16 cm       crawford county federated library system, in northwestern pennsylvania
19:16 kados2   chris: welcome
19:16 thd      cm: what are the ccfls?
19:16 pecisk   I am Linux admin and dev, I am interested in Koha from a time when I girlfriend wrote project about implementing it in local museum, unfortunately lot of real time issues blocked to realise it in real life. However, I like that Koha is here and quite advanced, as I hate proritary backend stuff which is very expensive to license and doesn't work in lot of cases anyway :)
19:15 tumer    I will be needing ILL module very soon has to be OCLC compliant, anyone working on that?
19:15 cm       w00t!
19:15 kados2   wohoo!
19:15 cm       now only 8 more to go.  ;)
19:15 cm       yeah, i'm not on here much.  good news, though; we migrated our 1st & largest library to dev_week.
19:14 johnb    I'm here
19:14 kados2   :-)
19:14 kados2   (cm, and ccfls isn't really new to Koha, but maybe new to the developer's chat)
19:13 cm       guess i'm the only one paying attention from ccfls... don't know where johnb & kyle_ are.
19:13 pecisk   feel
19:13 kados2   or other things you'd like to do on Koha
19:13 kados2   so if you want, tell us who you are, and your interest in Koha, and if you have any development/documentation/specification/translation skills, etc.
19:13 pecisk   :))
19:12 kados2   hehe
19:12 kados2   burg, tnb too i think
19:12 paul     and maybe newlogbot should be introduced as well ;-)
19:12 kados2   pecisk (don't recognise the nick)
19:12 kados2   sanspach, saorge
19:11 kados2   johnb, cm, kyle_
19:11 kados2   bureado?
19:11 kados2   maybe you'd be willing to introduce yourselves
19:11 kados2   so we have some new folks here
19:11 kados2   hehe
19:11 russel   we needed more work out of him so we cloned him
19:10 tumer    kados have you doubled?
19:10 kados2   we will have to postpone the discussion of Git until chris gets here
19:10 kados2   I put in some suggested times as wel
19:10 kados2   there's our agenda
19:10 kados2   http://wiki.koha.org/doku.php?id=meetingnotes07jun18
19:09 kados2   still waiting for chris I take it?
19:09 kados2   morning russ, thanks for making it so early!
19:09 paul     (sorry)
19:09 kados2   hey sanspach, long time no see
19:09 paul     (I told him he will be
19:09 russel   russel is here
19:09 sanspach sanspach lurking
19:08 cm       cm here
19:08 tumer    tumer present
19:08 ryan     here!
19:08 kados2   maybe we can do a roll call?
19:08 kados2   so are we ready to get started?
19:07 tumer    i am here just by coincidence, been away from library work for some time
19:07 kados2   big turnout today!
19:07 kados2   ryan found ircatwork.com for me, so thanks ryan
19:06 kados2   IRC was blocked where I am currently
19:06 tumer    hi paul
19:06 kados2   folks even
19:06 kados2   sorry golks
19:06 kados2   wow
19:06 paul     hi tumer. nice to see you here for the meeting
19:06 tumer[A] hello all, long time its been
19:05 russel   very cold here this morning - hard to get out of bed :-)
19:05 paul     'morning
19:05 paul     hi russel
19:05 russel   hi paul
19:05 paul     kiwis are awaken...
19:04 paul     was asking himself, of course ;-)
19:04 paul     )
19:04 cm       nope, paul, you're not.  :)
19:04 rch      hi paul (nope)
19:04 paul     hello world. it's 9PM and 5 mn, am I the only one on this chanel ?
14:05 thd      kados: are you there?