IRC log for #koha, 2006-03-04

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
11:08 shedges morning kados
11:13 kados morning
11:13 kados looks like the cron jobs ran this morning
11:14 shedges good deal!
11:14 shedges kados:  can you copy .76/home/basement/bin/import into my directory?
11:14 shedges I need to take a look at it, don't have permission
11:15 shedges (and want to be sure I'm working on the right version)
11:15 kados yep ... just a sec
11:16 kados k ... it's called importcurrent
11:17 shedges thnx!
12:45 owen |hdl|, are you around?
12:45 |hdl| yes
12:46 owen Hi. I'm curious about an opac script that is fairly new:
12:46 owen It doesn't seem to be linked to from anywhere
12:47 |hdl| It should be now.
12:47 |hdl| Paul made a correction to opac-mainpage.
12:48 |hdl| It is just for ppl to be able to detail by branch
12:51 owen Maybe he hasn't committed it yet? I don't see it.
12:51 |hdl| I shall tell him :)
12:54 |hdl| or do it myself... :>
13:18 tim kados: renews weren't working.  Got a 404 error.  Copied from cvsrepos/2.2.x/koha/ to intranet/cgi-bin/members
13:18 kados did that fix it?
13:19 tim Yup
13:19 kados cool
13:19 tim Was that an ok way to fix it?
13:19 kados yep
13:43 kados thd: you here?
14:10 thd yes kados
15:25 kados thd: I can't get the MARC Authorities working on my other test server
15:26 kados thd: can't really get them working on either
15:29 tim I just noticed the information around the patron photos on the circ computers looked different from mine.  Different versions of Firefox.  I'm upgradigng the circ computers.
15:38 kados tim: what was the difference?
15:46 kados thd: I can't get the MARC Authorities working on my other test server
15:46 kados thd: can't really get them working on either
15:46 kados thd: if you have some time to troubleshoot that'd be great
15:46 thd kados: yes I have time
16:16 owen kados, you know how nothing was showing up under 'summary' when we searched for an authority?
16:18 thd owen: that was because kados had omitted summary text from the author authority type he had created.
16:19 owen thd: do you know why there would be both description and summary?
16:20 thd owen: Descriptions are usually long summaries :)
16:20 owen But in the authority edit screen, description is the text input line and summary is the huge textarea!
16:21 owen thd: do you know why the authority search results page wouldn't show the value of the authority?
16:22 owen How do you know what you're editing if all it shows is 'Author' and an authority id number?
16:24 thd owen: The authority system was designed to return the value of the authority to the form so maybe it shows nothing with only one match found.
16:24 thd owen: However that may be a bug/design error.
16:25 thd owen: It may actually have worked correctly earlier.
16:26 thd owen: also the description is the small text box in the authority type creation form while the summary is the large text area.
16:26 owen Yeah, that's what I said
16:28 owen Right now when I do a search I get this: in the results table: ' Personal Name Author Authorities'   '0 biblio(s)' [incorrect]   ' Authority number 2' [edit] [delete]      
16:28 thd owen: obviously a bad translation from French :)
16:38 kados when I do an OPAC dictionary search for 'author'
16:38 kados using 'ferraro'
16:38 kados I see the Personal Name Author Authorities entry
16:38 kados (of course it doesn't tell me what the actual term is, so it's pretty much useless)
16:39 kados it also says 'Used in' 0 records
16:39 kados when I happen to know it's used in two records
16:39 kados so that's a puzzel
16:39 kados puzzle even
16:39 kados also, when I do select the value there
16:39 owen The only part of that table that isn't broken is 'edit' and 'delete' !
16:39 kados all it does is copy the textual value of that authority record into the search box
16:40 kados then a search on it is just a normal author search -- it doesn't allow me to pull up the records that are linked to that authority
16:40 kados so as near as I can tell, the only reason someone would want to use this
16:41 kados would be to have the ability to bulk update the value of an authority
16:41 kados ie if I suddenly were to be knighted
16:41 kados and you wanted to add
16:41 kados Sir Joshua Ferraro
16:41 kados to all the books I've written
16:41 kados without having to edit all the records
16:42 kados thd: let me know when you're back
16:42 kados hehe
16:43 thd kados I am back
16:45 thd kados: authority searching is not yet supported in the OPAC
16:46 kados ahh
16:46 thd kados: so you could not search on kados to find Joshua
16:46 kados well it doesn't work in the intranet either
16:46 kados the authority records aren't attaching to the bib records
16:46 thd kados: yes there does seem to be a template defect
16:49 thd kados: Perhaps something is missing because building authorities uses some obscure SQL storage to display the term.
16:49 thd s/term/authorised form of the authority/
16:50 thd kados: When I had investigated months ago I had noticed only the issue where summary needed to be populated.
16:52 thd kados: If it is merely a question of adding the authorised form to the list of authorities returned from a search that should be relatively easy to fix.
16:53 kados I see two issues so far
16:53 kados 1. when you do a search for an authority record it doesn't tell you the value ... just the type and summary
16:54 kados 2. the authorities records aren't properly linking to the bib records
16:54 kados the other problem I stated about the OPAC really makes authorities mostly useless in their current state
16:54 kados though it might not take much to make an OPAC authorities search
16:55 kados (in fact, this might solve the problems that BWS Johnson has mentioned about current misshandling of 650x)
16:55 thd kados: problem 1 may be caused by the cause of problem 2 although they ought to be independent problems under some possible design.
16:56 kados I just don't understand how paul's libraries function with this system
16:57 thd kados: Authorities are valuable so that every time we catalogue another one of your fine works we do not attribute a different name to you despite the fact that you may have had your name printed in different ways in each of your books.
16:59 thd kados: in one book the copyright page may show your name as J M Ferraro, another Joshua Ferraro, another Josh Ferraro, another JMF, another kados.
17:01 thd kados: your authorised name would be the most complete form of your name that would ideally have been taken from the most complete form of your name with birth year filed at the copyright office if you did the right thing and registered your copyrights.
17:03 thd kados: So you might appear as Joshua Mxxx Ferraro 19XX- in the copyright office files and that name could be used to find all your works and distinguish you from every other Joshua Ferraro
17:03 owen We agree, thd: that's why it's so frustrating that the existing system doesn't seem to work properly
17:03 kados so basically we need to either dive into the code or wait for paul to return from paris so we can bug him to fix authorities
17:04 kados my head's too full already to attempt to reverse engineer right now
17:04 kados so I guess we'll have to wait until next week to work on authorities
17:04 kados in the meantime, maybe owen will have had a chance to update the npl templates so that I can bear to view the screens :-)
17:05 thd kados: the statement of responsibility for the record would still include your name just as it appeared in the published version, no matter what the actual authorised form of your name was.
17:05 kados thd: lets postpone the authorities work till I can talk to paul
17:06 thd kados: This should not be difficult to fix.
17:06 kados thd: do you want to discuss improvements to the MARC editor?
17:06 kados thd: ie subfield repeatability and reordering?
17:06 thd kados: Why not try with an SQL dump of the authority framework.
17:07 thd kados: I mean an SQL dump of a working authority framework.
17:07 kados thd: do you have one?
17:07 kados thd: I don't have a working framework on any of my boxes
17:07 thd kados: not on my hose system but you have one for the liblime box.
17:08 thd kados: what was the problem on the LibLime server?
17:09 thd s/hose/home/
17:10 kados thd: the liblime server has exactly the same problems that the NPL test box has
17:11 thd kados: Did you try linking bibliographic records to Joshua on that system?
17:12 thd kados: The Kerr authority record was not created as an author record for some reason.
17:13 thd kados: I suspect that you had created Kerr before the author authority type framework had been defined correctly.
17:13 kados I haven't played with it since last night, but I know it wasn't working last night
17:14 thd kados: We should do one experiment to at least give you some information to convey to paul.
17:15 kados ok, lets do it
17:15 thd kados: Or even to hdl who must understand the authorises code well.
17:15 kados I'll make the default templates available again
17:16 thd kados: set 100 $9 to managed in the same tab as 100 $a for the bibliographic framework.
17:17 kados thd: er?
17:17 kados thd: ahh ... got it
17:18 kados ok, so I must create $9 first ... it's not ther eby default
17:18 kados ok, done
17:18 kados now I'll add a new authority record for authors
17:19 thd kados: really, it was left out of the MARC 21 bibliographic framework
17:20 kados ok, a new authority for author 'James Hill' was created
17:20 kados now I"ll create a new book
17:21 thd kados: ok see if $9 end up populated the authority record number.
17:21 thd when you add jame hill using the plugin.
17:22 thd s/jame hill/James Hill/
17:22 kados yep, it did
17:23 thd kados: save that new biblio record.  now if you make another record or search authorities from the authority search you should have one biblio already.
17:26 thd kados: npl templatea are back
17:26 kados thd: yea, I was testing
17:26 kados thd: ok ... so the authorities search works with default templates now
17:26 kados but only from the intranet
17:26 kados the OPAC does not work
17:26 kados with either template
17:27 thd kados: does it not work with npl on the intranet?
17:27 thd kados: aside from the problem that your templates cannot find authorities?
17:28 kados thd: it does work
17:28 kados[…]
17:28 thd kados: I mean your custom LibLime templates miss the navigation element to authorities.
17:29 kados yep
17:30 thd kados: Koha had never been set up for OPAC use of authorities.  Paul had been saving that for 3.0
17:30 kados it seems like the code to do it is already in the intranet
17:30 kados should be quite simple to merge it over
17:31 thd kados: The template needs to be fixed to return the authorised value visibly as part of a search result.
17:32 kados owen: let me know as soon as you have committed the fixes, I'll update the Liblime demo
17:32 kados owen: since the authorities framework seems to be working there
17:33 thd kados: Do you have someone interested in funding bulkauthimport and use of authorities past $a?
17:33 kados thd: so should we work on a next?
17:33 kados thd: yes
17:33 kados thd: in fact, it's already funded :-)
17:34 thd kados: what happened to your having to ask for months for people to make up their mind?
17:34 kados thd: I already asked for months with this client :)
17:35 thd kados: well I am glad to be living in the future now
17:35 kados thd: :-)
17:39 thd kados: you need to dump all the tables starting with auth_
17:40 thd kados: That will capture all the authority information inculing the individual authority files.
17:40 kados thd: I'm just going to quickly create a completely new database
17:40 kados thd: based on the demo
17:40 kados thd: so we can hack on it without scaring customers away :-)
17:41 kados thd: you would be surprised how many visits the demos get every day
17:41 thd kados: actually, only the authority frameworks would be best for exporting to the NPL test box if you had wanted to do that.
17:42 kados thd: naw ...
17:42 thd ok
17:43 thd kados: for future reference the authority frameworks are held in 3 tables
17:56 kados ok ... new demos ready:
17:56 kados
17:57 kados
17:57 kados different database, same scripts and templates as regular demo
17:57 kados well ... database is a copy ...
18:14 thd kados: you could host the concise documentation and you could offer LC MARC records for free.
18:18 thd kados: yes ALA, LA, and one other organisation perhaps have collective copyright on AACR2.
18:19 thd kados: LC MARC records can be used in whatever way you want after you have pad for the very high distribution fee.
18:19 kados
18:20 thd kados:
18:20 kados wow
18:20 kados that's pricy
18:20 owen kados: I committed updated authorities templates. The styling is incomplete, but they should function just like default.
18:21 kados owen: great, thanks
18:21 thd kados: you could acquire LC MARC records from a reseller but the reseller is liable to impose a usage contract restriction.
18:21 kados owen: just files in the authorities directory in templates?
18:21 owen yes
18:22 owen Was there a problem also with pages in admin ?
18:22 thd kados: Liblime could be come a reseller and at least supply authority records along with Koha support as an extra value option
18:23 kados k ... demos updated
18:23 kados thd: interestingly, that might be an option
18:24 kados thd: of course, Koha in it's current state could never handle 6 million authority records for authors :-)
18:24 thd owen: I assume that function like the default means that you have not yet changed the template so the authorised name appears in the result of an authority search
18:25 owen I've only done cosmetic markup changes to the templates. No functionality changes to the scripts.
18:25 thd kados: 6 million records should be now problem in 6 months of development
18:25 kados thd: that's true
18:26 kados 11K per year is kinda steep
18:26 kados if it was a one time cost maybe
18:26 thd kados: and If you have very many customers for your 6 million records then you can recover your cost at a very low price.
18:27 kados right
18:27 kados thd: the real question is: can I use LOC authority files to 'clean up' the authorities for my current client
18:27 kados thd: using Koha with some minor modifications
18:27 kados thd: if so, I may be able to swing this
18:28 thd kados: There may be an issue with subject subdivisions
18:28 kados thd: the clean up I assume would be automated with perhaps some manual components
18:29 thd kados: There seems to be a difference between how subject authorities work for UNIMARC as compared to MARC 21.
18:30 thd kados: This seems to cause a problem for a single $9 if there are subject subdivisions.
18:31 thd kados: Maybe a more significant code change would address that where $9 was repeatable and well ordered.
18:32 thd kados: I think we could do a passable job to address all the other issues before addressing that problem.
18:33 kados so what is the problem cause by a single $9?
18:33 kados caused
18:34 thd kados: There are no subject authorities in the form of $150 $a $x $X $z $y
18:34 thd kados: They may exist that way in UNIMARC for use with the standard $3
18:35 thd s/$150/150/
18:35 kados I still don't understand, sorry
18:36 thd kados: To remind you $3 is the standard in UNIMARC which paul adapted as $9 for any MARC.
18:36 kados ok ... for linking an auth record to a bib record
18:36 kados I understand that
18:37 thd kados: MARC 21 has separate authority records for $a than for $x
18:37 thd n subject authorities
18:38 thd kados: linking those would require more than one $9
18:39 kados but in it's authority record for $a there is just one field right?
18:39 kados (not even a link right?)
18:41 thd kados: but you may have a subject like 650  #0$aArchitecture$zIllinois$z​Chicago$xHistory$vPictorial works. in your bibliographic record
18:43 thd kados: I have not studied deeply how authorises might work for this example but there is no authority record containing all that as a single authorised topical heading.
18:44 thd s/authorises/authorities/
18:45 thd kados: Subdivisions have separate authority files
18:45 thd # 150 - HEADING--TOPICAL TERM (NR)
18:45 thd # 151 - HEADING--GEOGRAPHIC NAME (NR)
18:45 thd # 155 - HEADING--GENRE/FORM TERM (NR)
18:45 thd # 185 - HEADING--FORM SUBDIVISION (NR)
18:46 kados i'm going to read over the docs on itsmarc's site
18:51 thd kados: do you see the issue that I am identifying
18:51 thd ?
18:52 thd kados: In UNIMARC authorities there are at least no separate authority types for subdivisions.
19:00 thd $3 Authority Record Number
19:00 thd The control number for the authority record for the heading. This subfield is intended to be used with the UNIMARC Authorities Format. Not repeatable.
20:01 tim Is the reserve list just for reserves people make online from their accounts?
20:03 tim Because we have a bunch of reserves, but only two make it to the list.
20:05 tim The strange thing is that they're reserves for people who haven't signed up for accounts yet.
20:10 thd kados: are you there?
20:13 thd kados: I cannot find any 180 authorities at .
20:14 thd kados: They may not be indexed there or there may be another issue.
20:14 thd kados: I have to go out for a few hours.
20:15 thd kados: I will see what answer I can obtain about authorises with subdivisions tomorrow.
20:16 thd s/authorises/authorities/
20:17 thd kados: I failed to mention some record conversion price information that I had obtained.
20:18 thd kados: later or tomorrow
22:35 owen kados around?
22:42 kados owen: yep
22:42 owen http://templatelabsopac.liblim[…]koha/
22:43 owen This page is obviously not getting the new opac system preferences
22:43 owen But I'm not really sure what file to modify
22:43 kados hmm
22:45 kados well strangely it's in there
22:45 kados opaccolorstylesheet => C4::Context->preference("opaccolorstylesheet"),
22:45 kados                                opaclayoutstylesheet => C4::Context->preference("opaclayoutstylesheet"),
22:46 owen Are you looking at
22:47 kados yep
22:48 owen I don't think that's it. Because if you log in, is styled properly.  It's just the login form
22:49 kados er?
22:49 kados ahh ... right
22:50 kados I bet that second template param doesn't get called in that case
22:52 kados I don't get it
22:52 kados where is that login generated from?
22:55 kados opac-auth.tmpl
06:58 paul tiens, un petit nouveau ;-)
06:58 paul welcome onboard !
06:59 pierrick french speaking channel?
06:59 paul (habituellement, il n'y a que les frenchies qui sont debout à cette heure)
06:59 paul non, mais à cette heure, on est seuls.
06:59 paul donc on peut causer francais.
06:59 paul je ne t'ai pas dit que tout sur ce canal était archivé :
06:59 paul
06:59 pierrick Oc
06:59 paul donc attention à ce que tu écris ;-)
07:00 pierrick je dois me faiarisé avec l'utilisation de mon client IRC, j'utilise très très rarement...
07:01 paul ah, tiens, déjà, tu es en utf8
07:01 pierrick (d'ailleurs, je fait beaucoup de fautes...)
07:01 paul du cop, les accents sont assez rigolos vu d'ici...
07:01 paul (mais ca ne sera pas un pb en english)
07:01 pierrick oui, si je mets mon terminal en iso, il s'emmêle les pinceaux
07:02 paul ??? tu utilises quoi comme client irc ?
07:02 pierrick pour l'archivage, il faudrait peut-être que je passe en iso...
07:02 pierrick irssi-text
07:02 pierrick essai en iso éà
07:03 paul when you'll write in english, you won't have any problem with our french accents.
07:03 paul osmoze around, or just a bot ?
07:03 osmoze around but a lot of probleme this my connection
07:04 osmoze this/with
07:04 paul seems yes : ping timeout à 624 secondes.
07:04 chris evening northern hemispherites :)
07:04 osmoze hello all and excuse me
07:04 paul Pierrick, n'hésite pas à te présenter, puisqu'on n'est plus seuls !
07:04 paul ladies and gentlemen, i'm happy to introduce pierrick...
07:05 paul hello chris. still not sleeping ?
07:05 chris hi pierrick
07:05 osmoze hi too pierrick
07:05 paul wow... two pierrick for the same price !!!
07:05 pierrick_ je suis en iso via xchat �
07:06 pierrick_ on dirait que les accents passent mieux, non ?
07:06 pierrick_ salut osmoze
07:06 paul yes, accents are better.
07:06 chris not yet paul
07:06 chris friday night
07:07 paul i've met ineo yesterday. i've flushed my mailbox, i'll write a mail about definitive dates for KohaCon in the next hour.
07:07 chris and super 14 .. so lots of rugby to watch :)
07:07 chris oh excellent paul
07:10 pierrick (sorry to leave and come back... is there a trash channel to make some encoding compliance tests?) éàéàà
07:10 chris you can use #test
07:10 paul just /msg paul some message, and you'll have a private chanel between you and me
07:11 pierrick_ thanks, I'll first make some tests on #test ;-)
07:29 chris ok, time for bed for me
07:29 chris good night
07:31 paul good night chris
07:37 pierrick_ good night chris
07:48 paul Pierrick_ : ce serait bien que tu voies avec JPS et EB comment te présenter sur la liste francophone infos.
07:48 paul Un truc du genre "coucou, c'est moi le ptit nouveau, je suis super content de bosser sur Koha, je vais faire ca, ca et ca dans les mois qui viennent"
07:48 paul sachant que :
07:49 paul certains lisent la liste et font suivre les informations à l'extérieur de la dite liste. donc ce sera une vraie annonce publique.
07:51 pierrick_ OK, je vais demander à JPS et EB
07:59 paul tiens, encore un francais !
07:59 paul ah, et il est à mpl qui plus est
07:59 paul super nouvelle !
08:00 paul alors, ca dépote bien nérim ?
08:05 |hdl| oui, ca dépote bien.
08:05 paul tant mieux. tu t'es trouvé une place correcte dans l'appart ?
08:05 |hdl| Pour l'instant, dans la chambre.
08:06 |hdl| Mais on étudie la possibilité de passer dans un placard... :)
08:06 paul ouah ! la promotion !!!
08:06 |hdl| (En fat un cagibi. :) )
08:06 pierrick_ Bonjour henri-damien
08:06 paul (tu es en utf8 ?)
08:06 |hdl| Bonjour pierrick.
08:06 pierrick_ (encore des problèmes d'accents ;-)
08:06 |hdl| Oui.
08:06 pierrick_ Qu'est ce qu'mpl ?
08:07 paul montpellier.
08:07 |hdl| montpellier :)
08:07 paul 3 secondes + rapide ... hehe...
08:07 |hdl| Je dois certainement en avoir. Je suis nouveau en utf-8.
08:07 paul Je suis le maitre du monde !!!! le gardien des clef et le cerbère de la porte...
08:08 |hdl| J'ai essaye de passer ce matin pour pouvoir intégrer les biblio en 3.0
08:08 |hdl| Mais cela ne fonctionne pas encore.
08:08 |hdl| Alors, cool ?
08:08 paul cet aprem, si j'ai le temps, je vais commiter 2 trucs bien sympa, fournis par Tümer :
08:08 paul - des news à l'opac et dans l'itnerface pro
08:08 paul - la gestion des jours feriés.
08:09 paul ce fut l'autre partie de mon voyage en train ;-)
08:09 |hdl| Comment vas-tu pierrick ?
08:09 |hdl| cool.
08:09 paul code cool, propre et toussa. Juste quelques petites modifs pour harmoniser le tout et faire les templates PROG
08:10 |hdl| hé hé.
08:10 |hdl| Ai-je réglé le problème d'accent ?
08:10 paul_lunch (pas vraiment...)
08:10 |hdl| Bon.
08:20 pierrick_ oups, je ne suis pas suffisamment attentif... comment je vais ?
08:21 pierrick_ ça va très bien, je configure mon PC en ce moment, mon Emacs en particulier
09:07 pierrick_ installer une version stable n'est pas vraiment un problème, par contre, j'ai du mal à installer une copie de travail. J'ai lu le wiki, mais il semble être obsolete, j'ai regardé le script buildrelease, mais je ne pense que ce soit la solution pour un développeur :-/ Existe-t-il une documentation à ce sujet ?
09:24 pierrick_ hdl, tu vois l'historique des messages que j'ai posté en ton absence ? (je réponds à ta question de tout à l'heure et j'en pose une autre)
09:29 |hdl| oui pierrick_.
09:30 |hdl| Effectivement, la version 3.0 est assez ardue à installer.
09:30 |hdl| En fait, on a besoin en plus d'un serveur Zebra et de bien le configurer.
09:31 |hdl| Tu as une base de test ?
09:37 pierrick_ une base MySQL ou Zebra ?
09:37 pierrick_ j'ai un base MySQL mais pas Zebra encore.
09:37 pierrick_ Je vais manger et je m'occupe de tout ça cette après-midi, @+
10:10 |hdl| paul_lunch: are you still away ?
10:10 paul non
10:32 pierrick_ I'm back
10:48 kados hi all
10:48 kados paul: glad to see the dates finalized
10:48 kados pierrick_: welcome to Koha :-)
10:51 pierrick_ thank you Joshua
10:53 pierrick_ Joshua, I believe you're using Emacs, can you send me an extract of your .emacs configuration file for Perl programming ? (so that we'll have same indents, and so on)
10:53 kados and I recently switched to 4-char tabs
10:53 pierrick_ oups
10:53 kados like paul uses
10:54 kados chris uses jed ... that may be what you're seeing
10:54 pierrick_ Reading the wiki, I thought you were using Emacs :-/
10:54 kados :-)
10:54 pierrick_ (about sentences function)
10:55 kados I used to use emacs ... but I was won over to vi
10:55 pierrick_ my challenge of the day : install a clean Koha working copy
10:56 kados head or rel_2_2?
10:56 pierrick_ Not a stable release (easy) but HEAD
10:56 kados right
10:56 kados I can help you there if you need help as I've done it several times recently
10:57 pierrick_ Well... in fact I don't understand how developers work (environment)
10:58 kados right ... I will explain it
10:58 pierrick_ I suppose my web server don't use files in my working copy
10:58 kados right, you need to symlink your web server locations to the cvs repo
10:58 kados it's quite simple to do
10:58 kados there are five symlinks to create
10:59 pierrick_ (I was quite sure it would this kind of solution :-)
10:59 kados
10:59 kados I wrote up a short description some time ago
10:59 kados I hope it is up to date

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