IRC log for #koha, 2006-02-16

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
11:34 kados morning all
11:34 paul hello. Morning ended here in Europe...
11:35 kados ahh ... right
11:35 kados afternoon then :-)
11:35 paul some good news : biblio editing in HEAD works quite good.
11:35 kados woohoo!
11:35 paul (& storing in zebra I mean ;-) )
11:35 kados and import too?
11:35 paul import ?
11:35 kados should I begin testing with large datasets?
11:35 kados (import of new records)
11:36 kados (I think it works fine, as I've done it before)
11:36 paul I know you are impatient, but it would be better to wait until next week.
11:36 kados ok :-)
11:36 kados :-)
11:36 paul (with many Tümer Garip mails & hints on this. Thanks to him)
11:36 kados paul: make sure you're using the latest version of MARC::Record
11:37 kados paul: on sourceforge
11:37 kados paul: not CPAN version
11:37 kados paul: because CPAN version doesn't calculate directory offsets for utf-8 outside the normal ascii range
11:37 kados paul: so you will get some strange results
11:38 paul ok, i'll check (but my problems are not here for instance, they are in SQL tables moving to UTF8)
11:38 kados ahh
11:39 paul + i'm preparing a mail for KohaCon.
11:39 kados do I remember correctly that 'utf-8 = on' in sql is a server-wide setting? and not an individual- database setting?
11:39 kados s/sql/mysql/
11:39 paul (could be in may, 8-25)
11:40 kados (sounds good to me)
11:40 paul it's default behaviour. You can define char encoding for every database & table & field.
11:40 kados ahh
11:40 kados that's good at least
12:46 kados morning owen
12:46 owen Hi kados
14:08 kados ciao
14:30 |hdl| kados : sorry for not having been there yesterday.
14:30 kados np
14:30 |hdl| I had overlooked the meeting information note.
14:30 kados I'll be sure to send a separate email about meetings from now on ;-)
14:31 kados in fact ... I'll send one immediately about next week
14:43 kados heh
18:08 chris hmm paul is away
18:09 chris [Wed Feb 15 10:08:32 2006] [error] ZOOM error 223 "ES: permission denied on ES - cannot modify or delete" from diag-set 'Bib-1'
18:10 chris when i try to acquisition a book, but from what I can see, it shouldnt be trying to add it to the diag-set .. it should be adding it to koha3
18:10 chris off to read man pages
18:13 kados interesting
18:13 kados Bareword found where operator expected at /home/jmf/working/nbbc/data/nbbcmarc.mrc line 1, near "00382nam"
18:13 kados        (Missing operator before nam?)
18:13 kados Number found where operator expected at /home/jmf/working/nbbc/data/nbbcmarc.mrc line 1, near "nam  2200121"
18:14 kados        (Do you need to predeclare nam?)
18:14 kados Bareword found where operator expected at /home/jmf/working/nbbc/data/nbbcmarc.mrc line 1, near "2200121 a"
18:14 kados        (Missing operator before a?)
18:14 kados Number found where operator expected at /home/jmf/working/nbbc/data/nbbcmarc.mrc line 1, near "a 4500005001700000100001600017245001​3000332600050000463000010000965000​01800106650002600124852011000150"
18:14 kados        (Do you need to predeclare a?)
18:14 kados Illegal octal digit '8' at /home/jmf/working/nbbc/data/nbbcmarc.mrc line 1, at end of line
18:14 kados syntax error at /home/jmf/working/nbbc/data/nbbcmarc.mrc line 1, near "00382nam  "
18:14 kados Unrecognized character \x1E at /home/jmf/working/nbbc/data/nbbcmarc.mrc line 1.
18:14 kados a different error all together
18:14 chris how did you run it
18:14 chris bulkmarcimport -file/path/to/file
18:14 kados perl -I /path/to/koha file.mrc
18:15 chris ah ha
18:15 chris its trying to execute file.marc as perl :)
18:15 chris try
18:15 chris perl -I /path/to/koha -file./file.mrc
18:15 chris or maybe
18:15 chris perl -I /path/to/koha -file ./file.mrc
18:16 chris i cant remember if it needs teh space or not
18:17 kados well ... the old bulkmarcimport needed -file /path/to/file.mrc
18:17 kados (with no '.'
18:18 kados perl -I /home/koha/testing/cvsrepo/koha -file /home/jmf/working/nbbc/data/nbbcmarc.mrc
18:18 chris right ./ is just saying relative to this dir
18:18 kados gives me:
18:18 kados Can't call method "option" on an undefined value at /home/koha/testing/cvsrepo/koha/C4/ line 161.
18:18 chris cos i was to lazy to type the full path
18:18 chris what is line 161?
18:19 kados eval {  
18:19 kados                $Zconn = new ZOOM::Connection(C4::Context->config("zebradb"));
18:19 kados        };
18:19 kados        $Zconn->option(cqlfile => C4::Context->config("intranetd​ir")."/zebra/");
18:19 chris right
18:19 kados the last line there
18:19 chris edit koha.conf
18:19 chris add
18:19 chris zebradb=localhost:2100/dbname
18:19 kados k
18:19 chris (or whatever is relevant for you)
18:20 chris for eg i made a zebre db called koha3 so mine says
18:20 chris localhost:2100/koha3
18:20 kados right
18:21 kados hmm
18:21 kados same error ..
18:22 kados my zebra db is called kohatest
18:22 kados and I started zebra with:
18:22 chris ok
18:22 kados zebraidx update Biblios
18:22 kados zebrasrv @2100
18:22 chris right
18:22 kados it's running ... but no connections thusfar
18:22 chris i did zebraidx -d kohatest update Biblios
18:22 chris zebrasrv localhost:2100
18:23 kados ahh
18:23 kados I'll try that
18:23 kados (though I had the db name in the zebra.cfg ... maybe localhost is the trick)
18:24 kados no deal
18:24 chris ok add this
18:24 kados this box has multiple IPs ... but we're doing socket conenctions right?
18:25 kados so it shouldn't matter?
18:25 chris no, but we are telling it to connect to localhost
18:25 chris ie
18:25 kados right
18:25 chris after line 161
18:25 chris add
18:25 chris if ($@){                                                                                                          
18:25 chris            die "Fatal error, cant connect to z3950 server";                                                              
18:25 chris        }
18:25 chris this should be in there anyway
18:25 chris actually go
18:26 chris if ($@){
18:26 chris warn "Error ", $@->code(), ": ", $@->message(), "\n";
18:26 chris            die "Fatal error, cant connect to z3950 server";                                                              
18:26 chris        }
18:26 chris then we shojuld be able to see whats happening
18:26 chris ill commit that to C4::Biblio
18:27 kados huh ... it's not throwing the error
18:27 chris ah sorry, before line 161
18:28 chris we need to check we connected ok, before we try to set an option
18:28 kados interesting
18:29 kados Can't locate object method "code" via package "Can't locate object method "new" via package "ZOOM::Connection" (perhaps you forgot to load "ZOOM::Connection"?
18:29 chris hmm
18:29 kados to install perl-zoom i did:
18:29 kados cpan
18:29 kados > force install Net::Z3950::ZOOM
18:30 chris right
18:30 kados I don't see a use  Net::Z3950::ZOOM
18:30 kados in
18:30 chris there isnt
18:31 kados should there be?
18:31 chris try adding a use ZOOM;
18:31 kados ok
18:31 chris and see what happens
18:31 kados hehe
18:31 kados ZOOM error 223 "ES: permission denied on ES - cannot modify or delete" from diag-set 'Bib-1'
18:31 chris right
18:31 chris now you have caught up to me
18:31 kados :-)
18:31 kados ok ... I can commit these changes to
18:32 kados should the use ZOOM go at the top?
18:32 chris im not sure, since i dont have a use ZOOM
18:32 chris and mine works
18:32 kados weird
18:32 chris but thats probably because its running under mod_perl
18:32 chris and something else has use ZOOm
18:32 kados right ... it's already loaded
18:33 chris it used to do the update an old way .. you can see that its commented out
18:33 chris in the zebra_create routine
18:33 chris theres something in the new way .. such that its not using our db, but is trying to modify the diag-set
18:34 chris and i have yet to figure out what
18:36 kados changes committed
18:36 kados right
18:41 chris hmm its a puzzle
18:41 chris and this is annoying
18:41 kados yea ...
18:42 chris Creates and returns a new "ZOOM::Package", to be used in invoking an Extended Service.  An options block may
18:42 chris       optionally be passed in.  See the "ZOOM::Package" documentation
18:42 chris chris@wolf:~/koha$ man ZOOM::Package
18:42 chris No manual entry for ZOOM::Package
18:42 kados heh
18:42 kados maybe perldoc?
18:42 chris ill go see if its on cpan
18:43 chris ohh its further down in the man ZOOM
18:53 chris hmm still in the dark
18:55 kados on the server side I'm getting:
18:55 kados 14:49:32-14/02 zebrasrv(1) [log] Received DB Update
18:55 kados 14:49:32-14/02 zebrasrv(1) [log] action
18:55 kados 14:49:32-14/02 zebrasrv(1) [log] specialUpdate
18:55 kados 14:49:32-14/02 zebrasrv(1) [log] database: kohatest
18:55 kados 14:49:32-14/02 zebrasrv(1) [request] EsRequest  ERROR 223
18:55 kados 14:49:32-14/02 zebrasrv(1) [session] Connection closed by client
18:56 kados there's a list of those error codes somewher I think
18:56 chris yep
18:56 chris on the client side i get
18:56 chris ES: permission denied on ES - cannot modify or delete" from diag-set 'Bib-1'
18:56 chris why diag-set though
18:57 kados[…]fns/bib1diag.html
18:57 kados error 223
18:57 kados ES: permission denied on ES - cannot modify or delete
18:57 chris yep
18:57 chris thats what it says
18:57 kados it's the Bib-1 diagnostic set
18:58 chris but it should be modifying kohatest
18:58 chris or koha3 in my case
18:58 kados right ... but doesn't that still use bib-1 diag-set ... or are we in extended services now?
18:58 kados (ie, outside of bib-1)
18:58 chris we are in extended service i think
18:59 chris hmm i wonder if you have to set permissions when you create a db
18:59 chris This class represents an Extended Services Package: an instruction to the server to do something not covered by the core parts of the Z39.50 standard (or the equivalent in SRW or SRU). Since the core protocols are read-only, such requests are often used to make changes to the database, such as in the record update example above.
19:00 chris ah ha
19:00 chris we need this line in our zebra.cfg
19:01 chris perm.anonymous: rw
19:01 kados ahh ... right ... I remember that
19:01 kados dou!
19:01 chris its in the unimarc one
19:01 chris right
19:01 chris that was 1.5 hours wasted
19:01 chris hehe
19:01 chris well not really, its all learning
19:01 kados yea, frustrating though
19:01 kados very steep learning curve with zebra
19:02 chris yep
19:02 chris ok add that line, restart the zebrasrv and you should be away laughing
19:03 kados couple of other things
19:03 kados paul switched from sgml to xml
19:03 chris saw that
19:04 kados that's the underlying zebra storage format
19:04 chris # Specify record type                                                                                                      
19:04 chris recordType: grs.xml
19:04 chris that bit
19:04 chris ?
19:04 kados yea
19:04 kados grs.sgml means it's stored internally much differently than grs.xml
19:05 kados lemme find a link
19:05 chris we should make sure usmarc and unimarc zebra.cfg stay in sync
19:05 kados
19:05 kados that section
19:05 kados Local Representation
19:05 kados I think we ultimately want sgml
19:05 kados not xml
19:06 kados as xml can only handle one record per file
19:06 chris hmm
19:06 chris with xml
19:06 kados but I could be misunderstand it
19:06 chris we can use MARC::File::XML
19:06 kados ing even
19:06 kados ahh
19:06 chris to do the translation for us
19:07 chris eg
19:07 chris record => $record->as_xml()
19:07 kados right
19:07 chris so without writing a marc->sgml parser
19:07 chris we kinda need to either deal with xml .. or pass around marc
19:07 kados gotcha
19:08 kados so I'll update my zebracfg and commit it once I've got it working
19:08 chris sweet
19:08 chris one thing i like a lot about zebra, its log is verbose
19:10 chris oh we need a collection.abs file too
19:10 chris in usmarc
19:10 kados hmmm
19:11 kados ok ... yea I'm stillgetting an error:
19:11 kados ZOOM error 224 "ES: immediate execution failed" (addinfo: "update_record failed") from diag-set 'Bib-1'
19:11 chris yeah if you check the zebra log
19:11 chris ttp://www.l ...
19:11 chris 11:10:00-15/02 zebrasrv(6) [warn] Couldn't open collection.abs [No such file or directory]
19:11 chris 11:10:00-15/02 zebrasrv(6) [warn] Record didn't contain match fields in (bib1,Local-number)
19:11 chris 11:10:00-15/02 zebrasrv(6) [warn] Bad match criteria (recordID)
19:12 chris i wonder if it shouldnt be doing an update?
19:12 chris a specialUpdate that is
19:12 chris maybe it should be doing a recordInsert
19:12 kados yea, that sounds better
19:13 kados EsRequest  ERROR 224 update_record failed
19:13 chris altho i wonder if this routine is used for updates as well
19:13 kados is the error I'm getting
19:13 chris yeah if you look back its waring about
19:13 chris 11:10:00-15/02 zebrasrv(6) [warn] Bad match criteria (recordID)
19:13 chris 11:10:00-15/02 zebrasrv(6) [log] zebra_update_record returned res=1
19:13 chris 11:10:00-15/02 zebrasrv(6) [warn] zebra_update_record failed r=1
19:14 chris i think we can use usmarc.abs as collection.abs
19:14 kados I also get some other warnings
19:14 kados 15:32:11-14/02 zebrasrv(4) [log] record 0 type XML
19:14 kados 15:32:11-14/02 zebrasrv(4) [log] 1705 bytes:
19:14 kados <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
19:14 kados <collection xmlns:xsi="" xsi:schemaLocation=" http://www.l ...
19:14 kados 15:32:11-14/02 zebrasrv(4) [warn] Couldn't load attribute set bib1.att [No such file or directory]
19:14 kados 15:32:11-14/02 zebrasrv(4) [warn] collection.abs:14: Couldn't find attset  bib1.att
19:14 chris hmm
19:15 kados 15:32:11-14/02 zebrasrv(4) [warn] collection.abs:22: Couldn't find att 'any' in attset
19:15 kados 15:32:11-14/02 zebrasrv(4) [warn] Unknown register type: w
19:15 kados 15:32:11-14/02 zebrasrv(4) [warn] Unknown register type: 0
19:15 kados maybe my path is wrong
19:15 chris looks like it
19:15 chris check C4::Biblio
19:15 chris i think its looking in
19:16 chris oh no thats right
19:16 kados it's in zebra.cfg
19:16 kados /usr/local/share/idzebra/tab/
19:16 chris right
19:16 kados and there's nothing there :-)
19:16 chris take local out
19:16 chris its in /usr/share/idz
19:16 chris if you install the debian package
19:16 chris local if you compile it yourself
19:18 kados yea ... changed it, restarted zebrasrv ... no go
19:19 kados even copied over usmarc.abs to collection.abs
19:19 kados (which actually seems a bit strange to me)
19:19 chris yeah maybe ill copy the collection.abs from unimarc instead
19:19 kados (because shouldn't we need a xml-based .abs)
19:19 kados yea, you'll need to change the tag/subfields tho
19:19 kados author is 100a
19:19 kados title is 245a
19:20 kados same error here
19:21 chris hmm
19:21 chris lemme swithc it to recordInsert
19:21 chris and see what happens
19:22 chris nope
19:22 chris 11:22:19-15/02 zebrasrv(4) [warn] Record didn't contain match fields in (bib1,Local-number)
19:22 chris 11:22:19-15/02 zebrasrv(4) [warn] Bad match criteria (recordID)
19:22 chris 11:22:19-15/02 zebrasrv(4) [warn] zebra_insert_record failed r=1
19:24 kados in collection.abs
19:24 kados melm 090$a      Identifier-standard,Identifier-standard:p
19:24 chris ahh
19:24 kados I changed the 'i' to caps
19:24 kados but didn't help
19:24 chris could it be 090 is empty
19:24 chris lemme dump the xml and see
19:24 kados ahh ... of course it it
19:24 kados these aren't koha records
19:25 kados so there is no id
19:25 chris it should be making them tho, and then inserting into zebra
19:25 kados we'll have to put one in with bulkmarcimport
19:25 chris im getting the same error in acquisitions
19:27 kados I don't see anything in bulkmarcimport that adds a 090
19:27 chris it will be in C4::Biblio
19:27 kados my guess is paul's using MARC records exported from Koha
19:27 kados that already have 090
19:27 chris hmm i dunno
19:27 chris he was working with acquisitions
19:28 kados not in Biblio either
19:28 chris maybe he was only modifying not adding a new one
19:29 kados I'll export some records and test with those
19:29 kados (BTW: I think the export tool grabs items these days)
19:29 chris ohh cool
19:29 kados[…]ha/export/
19:29 chris ah ha
19:30 chris <datafield tag="090" ind1=" " ind2=" ">
19:30 chris    <subfield code="c">3027</subfield>
19:30 chris    <subfield code="d">3027</subfield>
19:30 chris  </datafield>
19:30 chris this is my new record
19:30 chris from
19:30 kados right ... it's subfield C ...
19:31 kados wohoo
19:31 kados chris: working!
19:31 chris excellent
19:31 chris cooking with gas
19:31 kados yea ... this rocks
19:32 kados too bad we can't do the sgml ... it's hundreds of times faster to index
19:32 kados it would have crunched this db in like 30 secs
19:33 chris well 3.1 could be sgml .. ie once all the code is there .. it wont be hard to swap the backend at all
19:33 kados I'll commit the new config stuff
19:33 chris we just hae to get someone to write us
19:33 chris MARC::File::SGML :-)
19:34 kados sgml can handle marc files fine
19:34 kados unless I'm misunderstanding
19:34 kados ahh ... I"m thinking of grs.marc.usmarc
19:34 kados that's what I used before to test with
19:34 chris oh yeah it can
19:34 kados uh oh
19:34 kados      _d1040 at /home/koha/testing/cvsrepo/koha/C4/ line 158.
19:34 kados Error 10000: Connect failed
19:34 kados Fatal error, cant connect to z3950 server at /home/koha/testing/cvsrepo/koha/C4/ line 165.
19:34 kados looks like it crashed :-)
19:34 chris what does you server log tell ya?
19:35 kados 15:52:44-14/02 zebrasrv(959) [session] Connection closed by client
19:35 kados bunch of them ... hundreds
19:35 chris its still running tho?
19:37 kados wait
19:37 kados 15:52:44-14/02 zebrasrv(1016) [log] user/system: 6/0
19:37 kados 15:52:44-14/02 zebrasrv(1016) [request] EsRequest OK: Done !
19:37 kados 15:52:44-14/02 zebrasrv(1) [session] Connection closed by client
19:37 kados 15:52:44-14/02 zebrasrv(412) [session] Connection closed by client
19:37 kados still running
19:37 kados so maybe it finished all the records
19:37 kados and our diag errors are just wrong
19:38 kados why I have hundreds of Connection Colosed messages in the server log is a mystery
19:39 kados do you have a working
19:39 kados so I can try some searching?
19:39 chris the one in cvs should work
19:39 kados hmmm
19:40 kados not found
19:40 chris what templates?
19:40 kados default I think
19:40 chris try the npl ones
19:40 kados yikes ... can't even get to the paramaters screen
19:41 chris[…]ontains&value=the
19:41 chris ahh just add /admin/
19:41 chris to the url
19:41 kados ahh
19:42 kados hehe ... error 505 now
19:45 kados chris: alter table systempreferences set value='npl' where variable='template' and value='default'
19:45 kados chris: what's wrong with that query? do I need to do an update instead?
19:45 chris yes
19:45 chris you committed ur zebra changes eh?
19:46 chris alter table is for structure
19:46 kados didn't commit the usmarc stuff yet
19:46 kados but I will in a sec
19:50 kados ok ... zebra.cfg and collection.abs committed
19:50 chris thanks
19:51 kados hehe
19:51 kados Can't locate Smart/ in @INC
19:51 thd kados chris: be careful with MARC in SGML.  LC no longer maintains the MARC to SGML mappings and the never made it out of beta.
19:51 chris ah sorry, comment that out
19:51 chris yuo dont need it
19:51 kados k ...
19:52 chris or install it :)
19:52 chris if you want to see my debugging output
19:52 kados yea, just installed it
19:53 kados shoot ... system prefs is borked in the npl templates
19:53 chris heh
19:53 chris gonna be lots of template fixing
19:53 kados there are no tab so you can't navigate it
19:53 kados yea ...
19:53 kados I think paul's actually been developing with prog
19:53 kados so maybe I should try those
19:53 chris yeah, they mostly sort of work
19:53 chris :)
19:53 kados heh
19:54 kados now that I've got a system up and running
19:54 kados I'll prolly be committing a lot of stuff this week
19:54 chris im hoping to as well
19:54 kados huh ... no prog tempaltes for the opac?
19:54 chris should slowly build up
19:55 chris until we can swap it in for
19:56 kados chris: do you have a 'prog' template for the OPAC?
19:56 chris umm i dont think so
19:56 chris owen is the man to ask
19:56 kados you developing with css or npl?
19:56 chris testing with npl
19:57 chris i havent had to make any template changes yet
19:57 owen I haven't written a prog template for the OPAC
19:57 chris not sure what id change
19:57 kados right
19:57 chris css hurts my eyes
19:57 chris so im testing with npl :)
19:57 kados hehe
19:58 kados chris: [Tue Feb 14 16:15:52 2006] [error] [client] ZOOM error 10012 "CQL transformation error" (addinfo: "can't open CQL transform file '/home/koha/testing/koha/int​ranet/zebra/': No such file or directory") from diag-set 'ZOOM', referer:
19:58 kados chris: you have that file?
19:58 chris ah grab it from unimarc
19:58 chris and stick it there
19:59 kados k ... I"ll commit it too
20:00 chris ta
20:01 kados yay
20:01 kados
20:01 kados search working
20:01 kados damn fast too
20:01 chris yep
20:01 kados so actually ... I'm not gonna commit that
20:02 kados cause I had to create a new symlink
20:02 kados to put it in
20:03 kados ok ... this is only indexed with title and author
20:03 chris yeah we have to build up what we index now
20:03 kados I'm thinking of expanding the collection.abs
20:03 chris go for it
20:03 chris im working on getting to work
20:03 kados can I still do a -d for deleting?
20:03 kados with bulkmarcimport?
20:03 chris yep
20:04 kados sweet ... that makes it easy
20:05 chris yeah go home :-)
20:09 kados thd: you around?
20:09 thd yes kados
20:09 kados thd: now's your chance to shine with your mad MARC skills and tell us what we should be indexing on
20:09 kados for things like 'title' author, etc.
20:10 kados thd: should we folow the MODS conventions?
20:10 thd congratulations kados chris paul etc.
20:10 thd kados: What do you mean by the MODS conventions in this context?
20:11 kados thd: I think there are some mappings from MARC to MODS
20:11 kados thd:
20:11 kados MODS describes some elements like title, author
20:11 kados etc.
20:11 kados I'm wondering if we should steal their mappings for our index configuration
20:11 kados or should I steal your ISBD config?
20:12 thd kados: yes, however, they are not a one to one mapping between MARC and MODS which will cause problems if you rely upon MODS as distinct from supporting MODS fro export.
20:13 thd s/fro/for/
20:13 kados I'm not talking about export yet
20:13 kados just ... what should be 'counted' as a 'title' in MARC
20:13 chris for searching purposes
20:13 chris ie if i search title "chris" on the opac .. what marc fields should that search?
20:14 kados right
20:14 thd kados: as long as you were not planing to use MODS to store data or index against
20:14 kados no ... not at all
20:14 kados I'm just looking for a way to determine which fields in MARC should be searched when I do a title search
20:14 kados which for an author search
20:14 kados etc.
20:15 kados I'm guessing subject'll really be fun :-)
20:15 thd kados: your thought is that if you use the MODS mapping to determine which MARC fields to index for a simpler common usage in a search form.
20:16 kados yea
20:16 kados or whatever you think
20:17 kados sweet ... we can specify field types too
20:17 kados w is for word
20:18 kados thd: any thoughts on MARC searching?
20:18 thd kados: I have the relevant information from the original MELVYL system.
20:18 kados sweet ... that'd be interesting to look at
20:19 thd kados: Everyone working on Koha should have a copy.
20:19 kados thd: is it copyright? can you post it to the list?
20:20 thd kados: there might be copyright issues and I have it in printed form copied from the looseleaf binder.
20:20 kados thd: yikes ...
20:23 thd kados: chapter 6 Index contents
20:26 thd kados: I mentioned the problem last night to chris about not mushing the indexes for mere speed.
20:26 kados thd: could you explain to me what you mean?
20:27 thd A search for author Fred Smith will match a biblio by Jack Smith and Fred March as joint authors in Koha 2.
20:29 thd kados: That should not produce a match in Koha 3 but that requires separate tests for index matching against the contents of each field.
20:29 chris i dont believe it will
20:30 kados[…]mods-mapping.html
20:30 kados take a look at 3. Mapping
20:30 chris but it might, we'll jsut have to see
20:30 kados titleInfo
20:30 kados in paticular:
20:30 kados [If $f$g$h$k follow $b they go with <subTitle>. If they follow $a they go with <title>
20:30 kados that kind of thing really worries me
20:31 chris yeah
20:31 chris its retarded
20:31 chris thats all it is
20:31 thd kados: I have the page in front of me for the fields and subfields used in the original MELVYL indexes.
20:31 kados and I _think_ that's one reason MARC must die
20:31 chris excellent thd
20:31 kados thd: if you're willing, I'm all ears :-)
20:31 chris if the sun shines in ecuador then 245z equal title in swahili
20:31 kados hehe
20:32 kados wow ... that's a quotable quote
20:32 chris heh
20:34 thd kados: personal author from fields 100, 400, 700, 800, 896, 796 with subfields abckq.
20:38 thd kados: corporate author from fields 110, 410, 710, 810, 897, 797 with subfields abckq.  Also from fields 111, 411, 711, 811, 898, 798  with subfields abcdegknq.
20:38 kados hehe
20:38 kados this abs file's gonna be HUGE
20:40 thd kados: I was listing the searches for authorised values used in browse searches.
20:41 thd kados: subject searches are half a page of codes.
20:50 thd kados: so far the find and browse indexes match for the MELVYL system.
20:51 thd kados: title word indexes for the keywords used in the find command are half a page of codes.
20:52 thd kados chris: There is also the issue of normalising the values before including the terms in the index.
20:55 thd kados, chris: you should have access to the same information I have.  It is an instruction manual on how to build a robust standards compliant union catalogue that scales to many millions of records.
20:58 kados thd: ?
20:58 kados thd: I don't think I have that ... where can I get it?
21:00 thd kados: There are only about ten copies of the MELVYL system reference manual. (1990- ) listed on OCLC.
21:01 kados wow, and you have one
21:01 kados cool
21:01 kados but ... MELVL uses Ex-Libris these days
21:01 thd kados: however, I have copied all the relevant sections after the interlibrary lone that took over 2 months.
21:01 kados I'm wondering if there mappings are out of date (or maybe these things don't go out of date)
21:02 thd kados: Ex-libris is a recent development and missed their single best feature.
21:02 kados which is?
21:03 kados I'll be back later
21:04 thd kados: It was creating a super-record that combined useful data from all duplicate records in contributing institutions.
21:06 thd kados: Ex-Libras merely chooses the best single record.  It does not merge data other than holdings.
21:10 thd kados: The relevant fields and subfields should be essentially the same for MARC 21 now as they ever were for US MARC, although, auditing should always be done.
21:12 thd kados: read above and signify when you are back.  I can copy post and/or fax the needed pages to whomever might need them.
21:25 Audrey thd: will koha eventually use FRBR? and why or why not?
21:26 Audrey Just a conceptualization question from a graduate student looking at koha.
21:26 thd Audrey: have you seen Martha Yee's paper on FRBRizing the OPAC?
21:27 Audrey not yet
21:28 thd Audrey: It is worth reading, however, her proposals are very CPU intensive.
21:30 thd Audrey: I have received excellent advice from someone who knows as much or more than anyone that such a scheme is currently impractical in the way Martha envisions it, however, that will not stop me from trying to cheat around the edges.
21:31 thd Audrey: I believe that both kados and I have a significant enough interest in FRBR concepts to make some aspects work.
21:33 thd Audrey: Koha started with a relational database model that was somewhat like FRBR even if inefficient for managing textual data.
21:33 Audrey which FRBR concepts would work with koha?
21:33 chris yep, we predated FRBR .. they just copied us *grin*
21:35 thd Audrey: Searching controlled against controlled values for controlled fields should work most easily.
21:36 thd Audrey:  Exploiting multiple ISBN matching from OCLC data is the next easiest.
21:37 Destinati Anyone around?
21:37 Audrey international standard book number?
21:39 thd Audrey: A huge problem confirmed by OCLC research is lack of control over many important fields for FRBR relations.  Variance and error in cataloguing makes matching difficult relative to an ideal world.
21:40 Audrey ok
21:40 Destinati I am about to purchase bar code labels for the first time for our small library of 9000 items. I think that using the codabar format with a mod 10 check digit is fine. I just wanted a sanity check that Koha really won't care about the details as long as my bar code reader gives it a number. Can anyone confirm this?
21:41 thd Audrey: The challenging things can still be done but not efficiently.  Much would need to be done as a batch process during of peak hours and stored in a normalised manner to overcome data inconsistency and incompleteness.
21:42 chris yes thats right Destinati
21:43 Destinati Chris: Whew - thanks! I'm excited about putting Koha into action.
21:43 chris good way to test, open text editor of your choice
21:43 chris scan something
21:43 chris if numbers appear
21:43 chris itll work with Koha :)
21:43 thd Destinati: your presumption is correct to my knowledge that Koha cannot distinguish as long as your bar codes have unique numbers.
21:44 Destinati I didn't know if it's possible to have Koha confirm the check digit
21:44 Destinati Not a required feature
21:44 Destinati but a nice to have
21:44 Destinati to double check the scan
21:44 Destinati or more likely... a human putting in the code
21:44 kados thd: you'll want to take a look at the algorithms the PINES guys have put together for Evergreen's 'meta records'
21:44 thd Destinati: your scanner can check a scanned code.
21:45 kados Destinati: yes, you can have it confirm the check digit
21:45 kados Destinati: I've got that working for one of my clients
21:45 thd s/can/ought to/
21:45 kados Destinati: some of their scanners support the check, some don't
21:45 Destinati I'm new to creating a library from scratch and bar codes
21:45 Destinati I bought a Symbol brand LS2208
21:46 Destinati It appears like a USB keyboard to my computer
21:47 kados yep
21:48 thd kados: what are the PINES 'meta records'
21:48 thd ?
21:48 chris cc
21:48 kados thd: it's what they use for searching
21:48 chris destinati: that should work just fine
21:49 kados thd: they are made by taking the many versions of MARC records that exist in their 5 million record dataset
21:49 kados thd: pulling together the 'best' parts of each similar record
21:49 kados thd: (ie, using subjects from all of them)
21:50 kados thd: and then indexing those
21:50 kados thd: I think they use MODS to build what they call 'classed' searches
21:50 Destinati Chris/Kados - thanks for the sanity check.
21:50 kados thd: meaning 'title', 'author' and the like
21:51 thd kados: That is exactly what the old MELVYL system did for 'meta records' that the Ex-Libris system opted out of implementing.
21:52 chris ok
21:52 chris so what im working on now
21:52 chris is get_record
21:52 chris i want to be handed a biblionumber
21:53 chris and to fetch the marc from zebra
21:53 chris the biblionumber is sitting there in 090c
21:53 chris but im not sure what i need to do to make that a searchable field
21:53 chris any ideas kados?
21:55 chris cos if we get the xml back from zebra .. i can get that in a nice form that knows how to handle in 2 lines
22:01 thd kados: are you busy finding the answer for chris?
22:05 kados sec
22:05 kados chris: you need biblionumber to be searchable?
22:06 kados I think there are two ways to do it
22:06 chris i want to be able to fetch a record, using the biblionumber
22:06 kados one is to do a MARC search as Seb outlined in a recent email
22:07 kados another is to index 090 as a word or number in zebra
22:07 chris right
22:07 kados and give it a name like 'biblionumber'
22:07 kados in your collection.abs
22:07 kados something like:
22:08 kados 090$c     biblionumber:w
22:08 kados oops ... you'll need a tab after biblionumber
22:08 kados and 'w' is for 'word'
22:08 chris right
22:08 kados and you prolly want 'number' but I don't know the code for that
22:08 chris ill have a play
22:09 kados word will work for now
22:09 kados you'll of course need to reindex and restart zebra
22:09 chris yep
22:09 kados one thing I'm not clear on
22:10 kados is whether we can reindex records that are already in zebra
22:10 kados or if we need to first export them
22:10 kados I've also got questions about what to do if zebra crashes
22:10 kados we need some kind of myisamchk util
22:11 thd kados: A possible need to re-export would seem crazy.
22:11 kados A ! in place of the attribute name is equivalent to specifying an attribute name identical to the element name. A - in place of the attribute name specifies that no indexing is to take place for the given element.
22:12 kados so what's element and what's attribute?
22:12 kados Element set names, which are a shorthand way for the client to ask for a subset of the data elements contained in a record. Element set names, in the retrieval module, are mapped to  element specifications  , which contain information equivalent to the  Espec-1   syntax of Z39.50
22:13 kados The attribute set (which can possibly be a compound of multiple sets) which applies in the profile. This is used when indexing and searching the records belonging to the given profile.
22:13 kados do we have an element specification defined?
22:13 chris dunno
22:13 kados is that this:
22:13 kados esetname F @
22:13 kados esetname B @
22:14 kados in the collection.abs
22:14 kados attribute set is attset bib1.att
22:15 chris[…]
22:15 kados so maybe attributes are 'classed' searches
22:15 chris ok, its just the marc view thats broken now
22:15 kados and elements are a way to search on specific elements in the data (that aren't indexed?)
22:15 chris and i should be able to just get that all from zebra
22:15 kados sweet!
22:15 chris once i figure out how :)
22:15 kados hehe
22:16 kados I think it's 'show' in Yaz terms
22:16 chris basically at this point we know the biblionumber
22:16 kados and 'present' in Z3950 terms (or 'fetch', I can't remember which)
22:16 kados there is more than one way to search in Z3950
22:16 kados i think
22:16 chris and once we can fetch the matching record
22:17 chris yeah
22:17 kados one is to search for results
22:17 chris you can use pqf
22:17 kados then put out one
22:17 kados one is to search for results and pull them out at the same time
22:17 chris $raw=$rs->record(0)->raw();
22:17 chris my $record = MARC::Record->new_from_xml($raw);
22:18 chris then its just a matter of making $record into something nice to hand to the template
22:18 kados yep
22:19 kados for the marc view
22:19 chris yep
22:19 kados it might be interesting to just dump out the tags/subfields
22:19 chris for the simple view we just go
22:19 kados directly to the template designer
22:19 chris my $line = MARCmarc2koha($dbh,$record);
22:19 kados and let him deal with it:-)
22:19 chris and you end with a nice hash ref
22:19 kados for the simple view, we may want to do the same, but pass it through ISBD
22:19 chris $biblionumber=$line->{biblionumber};
22:20 chris yep lots of options
22:20 kados yep ... pretty exciting eh? :-)
22:21 chris yep, lots to do, but its mostly straightforward
22:22 kados this is a useful sentance:
22:22 kados >>In other words, XPATH-statements are used to select elements for
22:22 kados >>searching, as an alternative to numerical USE attributes.
22:22 kados so it's what I thought
22:22 chris cool
22:22 kados attributes are your classed searches, defined with names in the abs file
22:22 kados elements, if enabled, allow you do do searches on specific elements in the data
22:22 kados using another index altogether
22:22 thd kados: which do you mean as the simple view?
22:22 kados one that's not quite as fast
22:23 kados thd: dunno, we're just brainstorming ... I think I mean the default view
22:23 kados thd: well ... in rel_2_2, default differs in NPL vs default templates for OPAC view
22:23 kados in NPL it's the non-marc view, in css templates its MARC view
22:24 kados chris: so you should be able to get the biblionumber with a query like:
22:24 thd kados: in all templates it is a preference setting for Koha 2.
22:24 kados find @attr 1=/*/datafield[@tag='090']/subfield[@code='c'] somenumber
22:25 chris dear god, the default is to show marc in the opac?
22:25 thd :)
22:25 chris we should fix that :)
22:26 kados thd: are you sure it's a preference for the OPAC? I think it's just a pref for the intranet
22:26 kados heh
22:26 chris that looks cool kados
22:27 thd kados: you have the intranet/OPAC preference backwards.  Only non-MARC changes the intranet view.
22:27 kados ahh
22:28 thd chris said MARC is cool.  I saw :)
22:30 kados[…]nd-character-sets
22:31 kados chris: there's something in there about 'systag'
22:31 kados Specifies what information, if any, Zebra should automatically include in retrieval records for the ``system fields'' that it supports.  systemTag   may be any of the following:
22:31 kados sysno: An automatically generated identifier for the record, unique within this database. It is represented by the <localControlNumber> element in XML and the (1,14) tag in GRS-1.
22:32 kados in the zebra config
22:32 kados we have:
22:32 kados systag sysno sysno
22:33 kados I'm not sure why that's in the zebra.cfg instead of the collection.abs
22:33 kados but I _think_ you should be able to do something like
22:33 kados systag sysno 090$c
22:33 kados I could be totally wrong though
22:35 kados be back later
00:14 chris woot
00:14 chris[…]
00:14 chris i just managed to acquisition a book .. the add item was stuck
00:17 kados chris: nice!
00:17 kados heh
00:17 kados so are you pulling out the MARC now from zebra for display?
00:18 chris nope
00:18 chris got sidetracked
00:18 chris i figure thats a minor detail
00:18 kados where's it coming from then?
00:18 chris i went off to work on making sure acquisitions is working
00:18 kados or is that just it ... it's not there at all ? :-0
00:18 chris try a marc view and youll get a server error
00:19 kados so where are title and author coming from in default view?
00:19 kados I still don't get how the search is running through zebra
00:19 kados right?
00:21 chris yeah that runs thru zebra
00:21 chris is fetching its results from zebra
00:21 chris look at about line 240 in
00:21 chris on down
00:22 kados through the catalogsearch sub?
00:22 chris yep
00:22 chris it goes off to zebra, gets the results, runs them thru
00:22 chris  my $line = MARCmarc2koha($dbh,$record);
00:22 chris and hands them back in the same format it used to
00:23 chris so just keeps working like it alway did (to outside appearances)
00:23 kados so $query is in CQL
00:23 chris just its searching zebra, not the mysql db
00:23 chris yep
00:23 kados right
00:23 kados nice ...
00:23 chris its pretty much a drop in replacement
00:23 chris while i work on
00:24 chris it means that any 2.2.5
00:25 chris can be upgraded to head
00:25 chris without needing to change bunches of templates and scripts
00:25 kados right
00:25 chris just new and
00:25 kados makes good sense
00:25 chris and get zebra going
00:25 kados yep ...
00:25 chris meanwhile we can make do cool stuff
00:26 kados I see ... so is where you're aiming
00:27 chris yep
00:27 kados a new set of search methods
00:27 chris thats right
00:27 kados based entirely on perl-zoom
00:27 kados excellent
00:27 chris and doing more than just marc
00:27 chris in theory
00:27 kados nice
00:27 kados cql will be nice for that
00:27 chris yeah
00:27 kados cause you can do things like
00:27 chris currently what searchmarc does
00:27 kados dc.title=''
00:28 chris is take a bunch of marc stuff
00:28 kados or marc.title=''
00:28 chris then convert it to cql
00:28 chris lets cut out the middle man
00:28 chris and make the template writers and opac-search not have to know about marc
00:28 chris so we just say search author=bob
00:28 kados yep
00:28 chris and  deals with the rest
00:28 kados pure cql ... that's definitely the way to go
00:29 kados i wonder if there's a way to handle
00:29 kados url queries
00:29 kados post queries (from a form)
00:29 kados and direct cql syntax in a text box
00:29 kados with the same param()
00:30 kados in cgi ...
00:31 chris should be able to
00:31 chris as long as input name=something where something is the same as url?something=stuff
00:32 kados I guess we'd have to directly parse a query coming in from an input box ... or just feed it directly to zebra
00:32 chris id parse it anyway
00:32 chris for sanity checking
00:32 kados yea, makes sense
00:32 chris dont want to trust user input :)
00:32 kados yep
00:33 kados it seems like quite a job to parse incoming cql
00:33 kados cql didn't seem like a walk in the park when I looked at the spec last
00:33 kados well ... the easy stuff is
00:34 chris yeah its actually spec'd in a sane way
00:35 chris theres no sacrifice three chickens, point your toes eastward and now 245z = the name of the first born child of the 33rd leap year
00:38 kados hehe
00:38 kados I'm actually composing a question about that to koha-zebra righ tnow
00:40 chris voodoo?
00:40 chris :)
00:40 thd chris kados: try to preserve the ease of extending searching by not fixing the search parameters to a subset of MARC.  This would result if GRS-1 or MODS, were the actual target of searches and not an underlying MARC or MARC-XML record.
00:43 chris the underlying structure will be marc-xml .. and maybe others .. we dont want to restrict the search to just marc either :)
00:43 thd kados: MODS mapping does look like a good starting point for determining which fields to index for common queries, however, I noticed some significant gaps in subfield coverage.
00:44 kados bummer
00:44 kados thd: the nice thing is
00:44 kados thd: the .abs syntax is quite sane
00:44 kados thd: so any library can just write a new .abs file if they want search behavior to change
00:44 kados thd: and they wont' need to code anything
00:44 kados !!
00:45 kados which is faaaantastic! :-)
00:45 kados it also means that my cranky librarians
00:45 kados can say 'I did a search on X and it didn't come up'
00:45 kados and I can play with the .abs file until it does
00:45 thd chris: no need to restrict anything to searching merely MARC as long as MARC itself is not restricted.
00:45 kados which makes me happy :-)
00:46 thd kados: you have cranky librarians? :)
00:46 kados hehe ... if you only knew :-)
00:46 kados thd: have you looked at the cql spec?
00:47 thd kados: you mean more cranky than I must seem at times :)
00:47 kados hehe ... well ... they're librarians :-)
00:47 kados with glasses low on their noses
00:47 kados and a finger on their lips :-)
00:48 kados we _do_ have those :-)
00:48 chris :)
00:48 thd kados: fortunately, I still have almost better than perfect vision
00:49 thd kados: CQL is easy and very close to CCL with which I grew up.
00:49 kados excellent
00:50 kados here's a nice intro:
00:50 kados
00:50 thd kados: What I have not fully examined is the Zebra Docs.  I made an improper reference to SGML earlier today that did not apply to Zebra.
00:51 kados yea, I think in their case, it's just a naming convention for their internal structure
00:51 kados which is 'sgml-like' in its hierarchical nature
00:52 kados chris: for test purposes, it might actually be interesting to have a text box where we can enter in cql queries and see how zebra handles them
00:52 kados chris: might help us better evaluate how to handle pattern matching, relation, etc.
00:52 chris good idea
00:52 chris ill work on that
00:53 chris ill make a little
00:53 thd kados: some cranky librarians may insist on having that text box as a feature.
00:53 kados sweet
00:53 kados thd: I think we'll have it
00:53 kados thd: but as chris pointed out, we'll want to parse it
00:53 kados thd: and not trust user input
00:54 thd kados chris: what user input would not be trusted?
00:54 kados chris: meanwhile, I'll get a basic abs file for all the cql stuff best I can
00:54 kados thd: things like:
00:55 kados thd: "\; `cat /etc/passwd`"
00:55 kados :-)
00:55 chris no input should ever be trusted to be sane :)
00:56 kados thd: or better yet `mailx -s "stolen passwords" < `cat /etc/passed`
00:56 kados well ... something like that anyway
00:56 kados doubt that would actually work
00:56 thd oh yes, I was not thinking about malicious in that context.
00:57 thd I was imagining that you would be repairing malformed queries.
00:57 chris ahh no, probably just say its malformed
00:57 kados chris: should we start with the 'bath' context set in cql?
00:58 kados chris: or the cql context set?
00:58 thd syntax checking for parentheses matching etc.
00:58 chris basically what ill do
00:58 chris is strip out bad stuff
00:59 chris and then zebra can grizzle about bad cql
00:59 chris it gives quite good error messages
00:59 chris for our little test anyway
01:00 kados excellent
01:00 thd chris: you mean bad as wicked first then pass to Zebra for bad as in malformed.
01:00 chris thats right
01:02 thd chris: Is there no simple way to protect the system by limiting the effected system area of any malicious code to the perfectly harmless?
01:02 chris its a good habit to get into with cgi
01:02 chris using taint and checking for malicious code
01:03 chris before you do anything with it
01:03 thd chris: oh, I forgot Koha uses CGI !! :)
01:04 chris cross site scripting is the rage with script kiddies at the moment, and it doesnt hurt to make their lives difficult :)
01:05 thd Actually, Amazon still has a command text box search which they had once called power search.
01:07 kados here's the paragraph I've been hunting for all night:
01:07 kados What exactly are the meanings of indexes? We have an idea that bath.title is some kind of bibliographic title search, but does it include journal titles as well as book titles? Does it include searching for words that occur only in subtitles? And should searches against the dc.subject index-set be simple word-searches, or use a controlled subject-vocabulary? And if the latter, which subject vocabulary? LCSH, the Library of Congress Subject Headings? MeSH, the Medica
01:08 kados The only reliable way to find answers to such questions is by reference to the index-set definitions;
01:08 kados yay ... so I should be able to get a complete spec of the 'bath' index set
01:08 kados and use that to build my abs file
01:08 chris cool
01:08 kados and eventually, when we're rich and famous
01:08 kados we'll come up with a 'koha' spec :-)
01:09 chris :)
01:09 kados and here's the bath context set:
01:09 kados
01:09 chris well this gives library's the opportunity
01:09 chris to make a NPL spec
01:09 chris and a HLT spec
01:09 kados yep ...
01:09 kados the really neat thing
01:09 chris and not have to touch anything else
01:09 chris how cool is that
01:09 kados is that you can have more than one spec in the same query :-)
01:10 chris yep
01:10 kados This is totally worth the 10 minutes it takes to read:
01:10 kados
01:10 kados best thing I've read all night
01:10 chris :)
01:12 thd unfortunately, the rest of the world does not Zing yet.
01:12 kados thd: is 'uniform title' what most people call 'title'?
01:12 thd we still have mostly Z39.50.
01:13 kados thd: the bath profile for cql has 'keyTitle' and 'uniformTitle'
01:13 thd kados: Uniform title is a controlled title generally used or the original title in the original language.
01:14 thd kados: Uniform title usually only applies for works appearing in translation or with many variant functional titles.
01:15 thd kados: key title is a similar standard abbreviated title commonly used with serial titles.
01:17 thd kados: a common title search should search the title, uniform title, key title, and other relevant fields.
01:17 kados sigh ... turns out the bath profile doesn't get down into the record level to define specific tags/subfields
01:18 chris well im gonna take a break for a bit now
01:18 thd kados: Do you mean that is left as an exercise to the user?
01:18 chris kados, get some sleep :)
01:18 kados chris: heh ...
01:18 kados chris: have a nice evening
01:18 chris thanks for your help thd
01:18 thd kados: sleep is unnecessary today.
01:18 kados hehe
01:19 kados thd: It seems like it's left to the implementor
01:19 thd certainly, if I have been helpful chris.
01:20 thd chris: I will be more helpful when I catch up.  I am still a month and a half behind.
01:22 thd kados: There is a very simple mapping for the Bib-1 attributes and much better for MODS.
01:23 thd kados:
01:24 thd kados: look at the bottom of that link for some simple suggested mappings.
01:24 thd or toward the bottom
01:25 kados ahh
01:26 thd kados: tell me about the Evergreen "meta records".  The last time I looked downloads were come back later, you missed the test window.
01:33 kados thd: sorry ... I don't have much more info yet
01:33 kados thd: I'm playing catch up with the PINES guys :-)
01:34 kados thd: they've got a couple of years head start :-)
01:34 kados so ... I think this is starting to sink in
01:34 kados bib-1 is the attribute set
01:35 kados specifically, it's the 1=4 for title, etc. stuff
01:35 kados their mappings should work well fo rus
01:35 kados for us even
01:36 thd kados: Much of Evergreen seemed to have a common design mistake/bug set with Koha 2 :)
01:36 kados yea ... well they've done quite well actually
01:36 kados they are sacrificing on support for things like bib-1
01:37 kados but I think they might make it up in things like scoped searching
01:37 kados where given any arbitrarly complex hierarchy of branches, they can find records at any node or brach of the tree
01:37 thd kados: Bib-1 is the needed set for retrieving records from the rest of the world which does not Zing yet.
01:38 kados (which, now that I'm thinking of it, could probably be done in zebra with a simple encoded hierarchy
01:38 kados thd: er?
01:38 kados thd: you mean zing is made to replace bib-1?
01:39 thd thd: Zing is made to Z39.50 and Bib-1 is tied to Z39.50.
01:41 kados thd: so I'm right that the '1' in bib-1 is the 'USE' attribute in Z39.50 right?
01:41 thd kados: Zing SRU/SRW have other search options but they are rough equivalents.
01:41 kados meaning bib-1 doesn't define things like relation(2), position(3), structure(4), etc.
01:42 kados bib-1 is stricly for defining what to _use_ when applying those other attributes
01:42 kados right?
01:42 thd kados: Those are also present, look further don that link.
01:42 kados shit ... I'm really not getting this then
01:43 kados what the heck is the difference between bib-1 and the bath profile?
01:43 kados thd: I think I'm right
01:43 kados thd: see section 2.
01:43 kados The attributes of Attribute Set bib-1 are used to indicate the
01:44 kados characteristics of a search term in a Type-1 query
01:44 kados so bib-1 should only cover type = 1 or USE
01:45 thd kados: relation, structure, truncation, etc. are all there in that document.
01:45 kados yea, I see them
01:45 kados they don't belong ... I'm sure of it :-)
01:46 thd kados: They may not belong.  Are they then Bib-2, Bib-3, etc. ?
01:48 kados that's what i would think
01:49 thd kados: Zing is a major modification to elements of Z39.50, prepared by the same agency, not an alien system of different origin.
01:50 kados right ... it's mainly SRW/U + CQL if I remember correctly
01:50 kados ok ... I'm gonna start at the source -- the z39.50 agency -- and try to figure out how all these specs are related
01:50 thd kados: The problem is always how much and in what manner the target supports the possible features.
01:53 thd kados: Zing is partly a simplification of Z39.50 that people could agree upon.  There is obviously, a high value on searching across a consistently implemented standard.
01:54 kados hmmm ... it could be that 'type' is different than 'attribute'
01:55 kados Section 3.7 of the spec (page 104 of the NISO-2003) specifies
01:55 kados query-type 1 and 101
01:56 thd kados: Is 101 user defined?
02:02 thd kados: "The type-101 query is defined as identical to the type-1 query, with the exception that the Prox operator and Restriction operand are defined not only for version 3, but for version 2 as well. Thus the definition of the type-101 query is independent of version."
02:03 thd kados: Maybe I would have some better results for using 101 instead of 1.
02:05 thd kados: for amusement rather than accuracy:[…]3950-connections/
02:18 kados heh
02:33 thd kados: Those servers are fantastically good compared to some that time out on almost any request for a single record.
04:52 |hdl| hi
06:05 |hdl| chris around ?
07:16 chris yep hdl .. for a little while
07:16 chris then i have to go to bed :)
07:27 chris right bedtime
10:21 _hdl_ good night chris :)

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