IRC log for #koha, 2005-09-04

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:00 shaun sent
12:01 owen Whoa.  The Internet is cool.
12:06 owen ...and Freehand is picky.  It didn't like that FH11 file at all :)
12:16 hdl kados ?
12:16 kados hdl: I'm here
12:17 hdl Are you through with serials management ?
12:17 kados for now
12:17 kados I need to discuss it with the Law librarian
12:17 hdl Is your likely client satisfied ?
12:17 hdl ok.
12:17 kados I haven't been able to reach him yet
12:18 kados hopefully next week
12:18 kados (this is an american holiday weekend)
12:18 kados (labor day ... most libraries are closed ;-))
12:18 hdl wichi holiday is it ?
12:19 kados Labor Day
12:19 hdl :)
12:19 kados hdl: do you understand borrower issuing rules?
12:19 kados I have defined rules in '*'
12:19 hdl Yas
12:19 hdl for us it is on the 1st May.
12:19 hdl yes.
12:20 kados 6,14 / 0.2,1,1
12:20 kados for all '*' fields
12:20 kados but when I issue something I get:
12:20 kados Please Confirm Issue:
12:20 kados Too many issues (already issued / max : a 0 / 0)
12:20 kados when everything is blank it works fine
12:21 kados is it a bug?
12:21 hdl Yas, it is default taken into account.
12:21 kados this is a production system for a client of mine
12:21 kados any idea how to fix the problem?
12:21 hdl Have you tried filleng every cas with those values ?
12:22 kados no ...
12:22 kados I will try it now
12:23 hdl I think th problem is that when the itemtype/borcat is empty, there might be a feature that does not take *s into account.
12:23 hdl But may be a bug...
12:23 hdl ;)
12:27 hdl GOSH !
12:27 hdl kados
12:27 kados yes?
12:27 hdl you should also fill default branch values hehe...
12:27 kados ?
12:27 hdl I think you miss them.
12:27 kados where?
12:28 kados that's where I am ... default
12:28 kados default and *
12:28 hdl you can choose branch with issuing rules setting page.
12:28 kados (within default)
12:28 hdl Ah ok.
12:29 hdl Sorry. But both borrower branch AND default branch values are checked.
12:29 hdl C4/ : TooMany
12:30 kados hdl: so I need to define in both?
12:30 hdl That's why I shouted.
12:30 kados ok ...
12:31 kados one last time ... if I only fill in 'default' it will not work?
12:31 kados this seems like a bug to me ;-)
12:31 meushi hi
12:31 kados what's the point of default if it doesn't work as a default :-)
12:31 kados hi meushi
12:32 meushi to provide heated discussions on IRC? :p
12:33 kados :-)
12:34 meushi I still have a small issue with barcode pdf generation... they are seen as corrupted by acroread, they open with warnings in xpdf
12:35 kados did you change the extension to .pdf?
12:35 meushi piping them through "pdf2ps | ps2pdf14" makes them readable again
12:36 meushi looks like acroread didn't like the forms: stuff
12:36 meushi yeah, I renamed them... of course
12:40 kados meushi: strange ... it works for me
12:40 kados hdl: still not working
12:40 kados hdl: I have setup values for all '*' in default and all '*' in MAIN
12:41 kados hdl: I get the same error
12:41 hdl Ohoh.
12:41 meushi kados: might be the #$@! standard XP config at work... worked with my non-standard linux desktop, too
12:41 hdl So there is a bug.
12:41 kados meushi: could be ... I'm running OSX
12:41 kados hdl: it seems so
12:41 meushi heh
12:42 kados hdl: none of your clients have this problem?
12:42 hdl I never tried filling fees.
12:43 kados not fees ... just loan lengths
12:43 kados I haven't done fees yet ;-)
12:43 kados paul: are you around?
12:43 hdl yes.
12:43 hdl seems not.
12:43 hdl But I happened to have problems when not filling
12:43 hdl every case.
12:44 kados ahh ... every case for every branch? ;-)
12:44 kados takes quite a long time ;-)
12:44 hdl yes.
12:44 kados 25 itemtypes and 13 borrowertypes for this client
12:44 hdl But you can have a look at the function I spotted to see.
12:45 kados and three branches (including default)
12:45 kados hdl: ?
12:45 kados hdl: what function?
12:46 hdl C4/ : TooMany
12:46 hdl The fact is that it does all the checks before returning and if one is not fulfilled, returns wrong.
12:47 hdl It MUST do all the checking. But maybe it is too restrictive.
12:47 kados I just tried something
12:47 kados filling in value for default and MAIN
12:47 kados (not *)
12:47 kados and that borrowertype can issue that itemtype with no error
12:49 hdl Have fun.
12:49 kados thanks ;-)
12:50 owen We ran across this problem when we last upgraded, kados
12:52 kados ahh ... did we ever fix it?
12:52 kados hdl: got time for one more question?
12:53 owen I think we just filled in every possible combo.
12:53 kados for each branch?
12:53 kados or just in default?
12:54 owen Hmm... I'd have to look.  I'm guessing each branch.
12:55 owen No... it doesn't look like that's the case after all
12:56 owen Just default, but each itemtype/borrowertype combo had to be filled in
13:15 shaun kados: was there ever a final decision that NPL templates would be used as default in 2.4?
13:15 kados nope ... I think 3.0 will have completely new templates
13:16 shaun 3.0 sounds goooood
13:22 owen The only new development on HEAD is the programmer's templates, which the public doesn't have to ever see
13:24 meushi hello owen
13:24 owen Hi meushi
13:25 meushi owen: I've been playing with the npl templates today
13:25 owen Great
13:25 meushi partial french translation and a few fixes in the reports
13:27 owen Fixes?
13:27 meushi the top borrower table had a typo in the logic
13:27 owen Any bugs you find pass them on to me and I'll commit them
13:28 meushi when it's looping and passing highlight, after the else, you want tr and not td
13:28 meushi else the highlight lines get moved 1 cell to the right
13:29 meushi at least on firefox
13:34 owen Which page, meushi?
13:35 meushi hmm, I don't have the code under my eyes
13:35 meushi the template for reports - > top borrowers
13:35 owen Okay
13:36 meushi one sec, I'm downloading the source at home
13:39 meushi bor_issues_top.tmpl line 36
13:43 meushi and I would also suggest removing "<!-- TMPL_ELSE -->Item" from line 43 in cat_issues_top.tmpl
13:43 meushi so it remains coherent with the other reports (empty cells if no result)
14:55 shaun kados: am i missing something? why not just use npl as default and make it more suitable for css customisation?
15:04 kados shaun: fine with me but IIRC rach doesn't like npl ;-)
15:07 shaun i would say the current default ones are much harder to like
15:51 meushi hmm... I've got a question about templates in international settings
15:52 meushi how would you deal with having to support 20 languages?
15:52 meushi 20 languages directories under the template
15:52 meushi or
15:53 meushi a modified html::template with locale::makephrase?
15:55 meushi or c) come to your senses and run away? ;)
16:21 shaun meushi: i think you've found the answer
16:22 shaun although i would personally do the latter, not that that it will likely happen in the next few releases
16:25 meushi well, the nice part is that irght now only opac needs to be supported in 20 languages
16:25 meushi for the intranet part, fr/en should be enough
18:03 meushi gnite
19:01 chris g'day
20:46 thd If I am in text mode as opposed to WSIWG mode in the Kea content editor, do I have the same advantages to edit the document source as if I were using the edit source function which is not enabled for my user?
21:04 chris you can still only edit the small part
21:04 chris but you can embed some html
21:04 chris with edit source, you edit the entirity of the document
21:05 chris edit content you can only edit the parts that have been tagged editable
21:05 chris was that what you were asking?
21:31 thd chris: That is exactly what I was asking.
22:07 thd chris: Why does the Kea editor not work in Opera, older versions of Mozilla etc. ?
22:42 chris because its not designed to
22:47 chris edit source will work in any browser, so should the rest of the features, only the edit content, (with the rich text editor enabled, like the kea site for koha has switched on) wont
01:31 thd What does Koha have to support systematically taking inventory to compare the material on the actual shelves and the in circulation records to the catalogue record of current holdings?  Many institutions are required to take inventory in fulfilment of government mandate.  Inventory taking support is a standard ILS feature list component.
03:34 thd osmoze: What does Koha have to support systematically taking inventory to compare the material on the actual shelves and the in circulation records to the catalogue record of current holdings?
03:36 osmoze hello, one minute, i need to translate in this morning, it's hard ^^
03:37 thd :) Do you verify inventory at you library?
03:38 thd s/you library/your library
03:39 osmoze not at this time
03:40 osmoze but, if i should, i have phpmyadmin, so, it's same when we return book to the departemental librairy
03:40 thd osmoze: Do you know how it might be done in Koha?
03:40 osmoze but, it's can be important in a module in koha
03:41 thd osmoze: Do you know of such a module or script for Koha?
03:42 osmoze no
03:42 osmoze maybe hdl know
03:42 thd s/module/component
03:43 thd hdl: Do you ever answer questions on weekend mornings?
03:43 osmoze lol
03:45 thd I am trying to complete the feature list for the new website.
03:46 thd osmoze: I usually do not take much difference between weekends and weekdays.
03:47 osmoze it's a good feature :) but, my opinion is it's can be have two way : a listing for librarian by bulk for exemple, and by site. The seconde way is to have a page where scanning all book one by one (with a laptop for exemple) and after, make difference... no ?
03:47 osmoze excuse my poor and bad english ^^
03:48 osmoze hé hé, are you a geek ? ;)
03:48 thd osmoze: poor English is not bad.  It is bad that I do not know enough French to communicate in even poor French.
03:49 osmoze :)
03:52 thd osmoze: I am a maniac about many things.  I am, however, only an amateur programmer.  I know library standards and the book trade to compensate for any lack of professionalism about programming.
03:53 osmoze ^^
03:53 osmoze i m just a geek ^^
03:53 thd osmoze: The laptop example is what I was looking for some support for in Koha.
03:54 thd osmoze: Not a maniac?  :)
03:59 osmoze yes, one day i search about a little computer to inventory or for book's return, like soekris
04:00 thd osmoze: laptops are bulky and not light enough.  A more portable barcode reading device should be used, the barcodes would then be offloaded to a file when the portable reader is full.
04:01 thd osmoze:  soekris?
04:01 osmoze, litlle pc, but we can imagine a soekris not for net, but with a little screen 10"
04:02 osmoze and, it's a good idea for a big library to have a support to inform people
04:03 osmoze it's not only a barecode reader
04:03 osmoze you understand my idea
04:03 osmoze it's like a embeded pc
04:04 osmoze you have a little linux with wireless
04:04 osmoze and you can make a lot of thing with
04:04 osmoze it
04:05 osmoze so, i m a dreamer ^^
04:06 osmoze and, the problem of a barecode reader that the librairy should be closed
04:06 osmoze it's not real time ^^
04:06 thd osmoze: what do you do for keyboard input in such a system?
04:07 osmoze with screen, but, one day i ve seen a little keyboard like mobile phone with a pci connector
04:08 osmoze i don't know how to say screen that we can pût on
04:08 thd osmoze: some libraries that I know used to close for a week during summer for inventory.
04:10 thd osmoze: actually, libraries that I know had to verify inventory to comply with government mandate.
04:10 osmoze thd> but if you can make this when is open ? it's economic ( for supplementary hours) and you can do that step by step
04:13 thd osmoze: there are real time wireless barcode readers.  They cost much more than the portable ones that have no wireless access.
04:15 osmoze hum... oki :)
04:17 thd osmoze: Ideally the actual inventory would always match the existing record.  In practice, that never happens.  Book thieves and the mice that hide books do not record anything in the system.  More importantly misshelving loses inventory.  Misshelving is usually verified systematically at inventory time.
04:29 thd osmoze: The better system to track inventory is RAID with readers built into the shelves.
04:29 thd s/RAID/RFID/
04:31 osmoze or simply an ipaq :)
04:32 osmoze there are with an usb slot ( for barecode reader) and there are wireless built in
04:32 osmoze with touch screen, and there are not so expansive
04:33 osmoze exemple : (the second)
04:38 osmoze and it's really simply to adapt a linux into
04:44 thd osmoze: Ipaq and similar portable devices are a good idea.  The special purpose barcode readers about which I was thinking are designed not to break when dropped from a tall ladder onto the concrete floor when inventorying the storage area.  Those industrial devices cost multiples of the prices for similarly configured Ipaqs.
04:52 osmoze yes, a solution for 300 $ with "étui" for awkward man
04:52 osmoze so, lunch time
04:52 osmoze brb in 2 hours
08:50 owen Hi thd
09:17 kados morning all
09:18 kados owen: quick question ... in a normal Koha install, how are staff supposed to pull out reserved items?
09:18 owen :)  It's a mystery
09:18 owen Actually, chris just did some work on an existing reserves report script
09:18 kados ahh
09:18 owen ...but I think it simply lists ALL reserves
09:19 owen We really need to figure out how to make our reserves process generic enough to share
09:19 kados which is probably not a bad thing for a single branch library ...
09:19 kados yea
09:19 kados is it PHP or ColdFusion?
09:20 owen Most of the work is done by Perl...stuff that Stephen put together
09:20 owen under reports in HEAD...that's the one chris recently worked on.
09:21 owen The only aspect that is PHP for us is the display on the intranet
09:21 kados ahh
09:21 owen And I'm sure it could very easily be redone in Perl.  There's nothing particularly complex about it
09:25 owen Even a single branch library would want a reserve report that only listed items which were available
09:26 kados right
09:27 kados how does hlt survive without this feature?
09:27 kados it's a real mystery
09:28 owen Yeah... I'm not sure.  Maybe reserves aren't that common for them.  Don't they charge for them?
09:30 kados yea
09:30 kados so in rel_2_2 I see a and reservereport.xls in cgi-bin
09:31 kados not in reports/
09:31 owen Those are older.  Chris did some work on the script and moved it into reports in HEAD
09:31 kados yea ... found that too ... neither one is working on rel_2_2 ;-)
09:34 kados well ... for one reason, he didn't commit the cooresponding templates ;-)
09:34 kados btw: is Koha's speed any better today for circ?
09:35 owen Cheryl says she thinks it is.  To me everything is faster at The Plains
09:35 kados right ;-)
09:55 owen kados: it looks like he did commit the template, just not to the right location
09:56 kados owen: right ... I've moved it but it still doesn't work ...
09:57 kados I just noticed another problem that you and I talked about earlier
09:57 kados in the OPAC it's impossible to tell whether an item should be reserveable or not using Paul's new 'notforloan' scheme
09:57 kados at least that I can tell
09:58 owen Hmm... that's no good
09:59 kados yea ... I've written a note to the list
09:59 owen Where does the problem lie?
10:00 kados well ... there's no easy way to get a hash's key ... easy to get the value ... but not the key
10:00 kados so if you've got:
10:00 kados 0 => In
10:00 kados 1 => Withdrawn
10:01 kados 2 => Lost
10:01 kados etc.
10:01 kados you can easily get the 'locally defined' value for each key
10:01 kados but it's insane to hardcode that into the script
10:02 kados what you really want is to run a simple check to see if an item should or should not be reservable
10:02 kados in fact, maybe we need a whole different status field for that
10:03 owen Under what circumstances are things showing up as available for reserve when they shouldn't?
10:05 owen Looks like the opac understands that you can place a reserve if there are no copies, but it doesn't understand when you set an item type as not for loan
10:08 kados right
10:08 kados where is the custom reserve list report that NPL uses?
10:09 kados (the perl part i mean ;-))
10:09 owen You mean the script that builds the reserve list?
10:09 owen I don't know
10:09 owen Is it a cron job?
10:09 kados ahh ... yes
10:11 kados hmmm ... yea this is pretty NPL-centric
10:11 kados but I can probably hack together a generic version
10:11 kados also, it builds a static text file rather than put the list in the db
10:11 owen yeah, because Stephen edits it somehow
10:11 kados really?
10:12 kados for what?
10:12 owen He does some manipulations to determine what goes where, I think.  Maybe I'm wrong
10:12 owen I guess he couldn't stay on top of that.  That doesn't make sense.
10:14 kados ahaa ... there's a new table after all
10:14 kados reservelist
10:15 owen Yeah, that's what my PHP script draws from
10:17 kados k ... I'm gonna try my hand at genericizing this and committing the whole shebang
10:17 kados db changes and all ;-)
10:31 owen Well, I got chris's script working on 101, FWIW
10:48 owen ...everything except dewey/classification
10:51 kados cool
10:51 kados I just got Stephen's script working on NBBC ;-)
10:52 owen Excellent
10:52 kados well ... your php and stephen's script
11:02 kados owen: all of these custom scripts share the same problem
11:02 kados the branch and itemtype data is hardcoded
11:02 kados as is the mysql connect info, etc.
11:13 owen The php script doesn't belong anyway... it should be re-written.
11:19 kados yea

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