IRC log for #koha, 2005-07-22

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
15:50 owen wb logbot!
15:52 chris heya owen
15:53 owen Hi chris.  Network problems over there today?
15:53 chris worse
15:53 chris We had power problems at AT/T house about 10:10pm last night (Wed Jul
15:53 chris 20), which caused a circuit breaker to blow on the UPS.  I've installed
15:53 chris another UPS to spread the load, and started everything up.
15:54 owen Drag.
15:54 chris that was from si last night .. sounds like he had a crappy night
15:55 chris i slept through it all
16:04 tim Does anyone know if it's ok to change the tab that tags show in by just updating the tab field in marc_subfield_structure?
16:05 owen Anything except for item fields, I think
16:21 thd owen: why are the item fields a special problem?
16:22 owen Because they have to be handled by, I think.
16:22 owen Instead of
16:22 kados chris: morning chris
16:22 kados chris: rough morning eh? ;-)
16:23 chris not so much for me, rough night for si tho .. few issues left this morning
16:26 chris  take a look at page 3
16:27 thd owen: I noticed that if I link something in the items table to an 852 field, for example, I get an error in MARC Check.
16:31 thd chris: Was it HLT or Katipo that first suggested releasing Koha under GPL?
16:31 chris i think it was katipo who suggested it
16:31 chris but that was well before it was written
16:32 chris if that makes sense
16:32 chris ie we didnt write something, then decide to gpl it
16:32 thd owen: why would need to be less flexible than ?
16:33 chris so we recommended and HLT agreed that we would write koha with the idea that we would release it under the gpl
16:33 owen paul could probably answer that question, thd
16:34 owen paul did the bulk of the work on Koha's MARC capabilities, so he's the one to answer that kind of question
16:36 thd chris: Were they easily persuaded about the software being written under the GPL as opposed to some other license, or even closed source like far to many other library projects?
16:36 chris
16:37 chris they are smart ppl
16:37 chris they werent hard to persuade
16:40 owen They also came at a different point in the process than most libraries.  Most libraries look to buy something pre-written.  They were already asking for something to be written from scratch
16:41 thd chris: thank you for the exact link, I had not noticed the story link on the about page.  The internet archive was also much too slow while was down.
16:41 rach they looked to buy something pre-written first - but there wasn't anything that fit their circumstances
16:41 chris welll they werent really owen
16:41 chris yeah what rach said
16:42 chris they did the full rfp process
16:42 rach and only when none of those packages were any good (or in their budget - particularly in the long term) did we discuss writing something
16:43 chris but it appears the big vendors dont actually read the libraries requirements :)
16:43 chris we also looked for something that was already written
16:43 owen They probably think you'll just be wowed by the promo materials
16:43 chris (im lazy .. if i could have just taken an existing project and added to it, i would have)
16:44 rach I think we looked at like the avanti project and got all excited, before finding out he hadn't actually written it yet
16:44 rach it was just a spec
16:45 thd chris: Most libraries contracting software to be written keep the code to themselves, if it becomes theirs, and charge other libraries to use it so they can recover their development investment.  Which, seems to me a backwards idea for libraries serving the public good.
16:45 rach we did talk about that - but "got rea" that neither we nor HLT had what you might call a marketing budget to do that
16:46 owen thd, do you know any examples of that?
16:46 rach - got real
16:46 rach that is
16:46 rach so they didn't have anyone with pretensions to become a library system vendor
16:46 thd owen: most examples are that
16:47 thd owen: OpenILL is just one I had looked at most recently.
16:48 rach we decided that the key indicator of success for Koha for the library, and perhaps key predicator of disaster in the longer term, was other people using it
16:48 owen So thd, OpenILL was something a library developed for themselves and now they're selling it to other people?
16:48 rach so if no one else used it, it would be unlikely to  last 10 years
16:49 thd rach: there are still not enough other people using it :)
16:49 thd rach: but there will be
16:50 rach yep I think there will be
16:50 chris all depends or your definition of enough :)
16:51 thd chris: enough will be when every library at least seriously considers it
16:51 rach :-) that's what I like - big dreams
16:52 thd owen: OpenILL was developed with the GPL in mind, but has been run as a service to recover costs without code distribution
16:53 owen Were any of the top ILS's developed by libraries and later spun off as a business?
16:53 thd owen: at least OpenILL has the intention of releasing code
16:53 rach yep I think so
16:53 rach is open ILL the pines project?
16:53 rach or something else?
16:54 thd rach: something else
16:54 thd rach:
16:55 thd rach: What were you answering with "yes I think so"?
16:56 thd s/yes/yep
16:56 rach oh that other libraries have built systems
16:56 rach and sold them
16:56 rach but they tend to form a company to do it
16:56 thd rach: full ILS systems?
16:57 thd :)
16:57 thd rach: let me know if you do remember
16:57 owen thd, were you thinking of other examples as well?
16:57 rach that was my understanding - it may have beena  company that approached a number of libraries and got the funding from them to do it -
16:58 rach rosalie might know
16:58 rach certainly libraries in NZ have built bespoke systems in the past with varying degrees of success
16:59 thd owen: most software developed by libraries is not distributed.  Another example I recently came across was an OpenURL resolver service.
17:05 thd rach: I was particularly interested in the possibility that a major ILS company may be the offshoot of a development project funded by a library receiving public funds to create the software in the first place.  It goes on all the time really when companies contract with tax supported entities but I would be curious about the founding of any of the major ILS companies.
17:11 thd rach: The world is grateful that neither HLT nor Katipo had anyone with pretencions to become a library systems vendor at the time you were creating Koha :)
17:15 rach :-)
17:15 rach well it paid off for us certainly
17:23 rach thd - I think most library companies would have grown up like that - I know that they "pre sell" sort of shares in new features to raise the funds to do the development
17:24 rach so I suspect that you would find that most library systems have something like that in their past
17:24 thd rach: The momentum for FOSS is still too recent for other libraries to appreciate the FOSS model as they should.  Actually, the closed source model is the brief interruption in the historic use of software.  Closed source is just the brief interruption that most people grew up with and understand better.
17:25 rach yep - but I think it's why libraries seem to have some difficulty understanding why OS is different - because they already fund new developments etc
17:25 rach or they have done in the past
17:25 thd rach: I wish I knew how to identify the actual source of how library companies grew up to use in a presentation.
17:26 rach if you can get hold of him, try talking to Pat Eyler (maybe send him a personal mail) he has worked in and around library vendors in the past, and I think would have a good general knowledge
17:27 thd rach: Was he at Katipo when Koha was first developed?
17:31 thd rach: Is Pat Eyler pate-away?
17:32 rach yes he is
17:32 rach and no pat's in the states, he hasn't worked for us
17:33 thd rach: Is he ever pate or always pate-away? :)
17:33 rach :-)
17:33 rach very occasionally he's pate
20:54 pate-away rach, thanks for the vote of confidence
21:29 pate hmm, i decide to make an appearance, and everyone is off doing other stuff.  i see how it is.
21:42 thd pate: I am here doing other stuff :)
21:44 thd pate: you should announce your appearance with a thunderclap to get everyones attention
21:53 thd pate: "1983 | Based on BYU-created library programming, a team of former BYU staff and grads James Wilson, Paul Sybrowski, Keith Wilson, and Ralph Egan create DYNIX, now the world?s largest library-automation company."
21:55 chris and one of the hardest to migrate from
21:55 chris perhaps thats by design
21:59 thd chris: what especially complicates the migration process?
22:00 chris having no way to export the data is a good start :)
22:00 chris we got there in the end, buy installing uniVerse shifting the binaries of the data to the machine
22:01 rach hey pat
22:01 thd chris: you mean the system will not even dump the records in MARC communications format?
22:02 thd chris: What is uniVerse?
22:03 chris nope it wont, uniVerse is the database its built on
22:03 chris this is an old version of dynix .. at least 10 years old
22:03 chris ibm own uniVerse now
22:03 chris and have a free version luckily
22:04 pate hiya rach
22:04 pate uniVerse is a PICK like system
22:04 chris it sure is :) heya pate
22:05 pate actually, I think you could write a PICK-Basic program to dump the data out in any format you wanted to ... finding someone with the expertise to do so is another matter
22:05 chris luckily we found someone who was familair with dynix and we starting poking at things in the uniVerse shell, and got the data out
22:05 pate not to mention that i think you'd be violating your license with dynix
22:05 chris probably
22:06 thd chris: I would never enter data into a progarm without a standards compliant export feature, but I guess not everyone beards that in mind when choosing a system :)
22:06 pate thd, i'm not sure i merit thunderclaps ...
22:06 chris often you dont have a lot of choice
22:06 chris well small libraries in nz sure didnt
22:06 chris you get what the vendor deigns to give you .. and you be happy about it
22:06 chris :)
22:07 pate and if that doesn't steer you towards free software, I don't know what will ;)
22:07 thd chris: you mean none of the competition would have a standards based export feature either?
22:08 chris 10 years ago ... i doubt one that they could afford
22:08 thd pate: just clapping then
22:09 chris :)
22:10 pate so chris, have you had a chance to play with Rails at all?
22:11 thd chris: 10 years ago more software had a greater degree of vendor lock in than 5 years ago.  I am eternally surprised to see what vendors still try to get away with in terms of that though.
22:12 chris nope not yet pat
22:13 chris thd: oh yeah
22:13 thd Sirsi has acquiring Dynix is not likely to promote competition
22:13 thd s/has//
22:18 chris the ILS vendor market is almost as confusing as hte media one .. everyone keeps buying everyone else, or changing their names
22:21 thd chris: If you change your name often enough, you can sell everyone the same thing three times and they think they will be getting something new each time.
22:21 chris good point :)
22:30 pate well, /me needs to go back into lurk mode ... I've got an article to finish tonight and I'm getting tired
22:31 chris cya pate
22:31 pate-lurk i'll be around (though email is always the best way to get me)
08:12 kados afternoon paul
08:12 paul morning joshua
08:13 hdl hi joshua.
08:14 kados afternoon hdl
08:14 kados paul: did you get the forwarded messages from Mike Rylander about multi-branch support in PINES?
08:15 kados paul: there's some interesting stuff in there about how PINES is handling the 'arbitrary tree' for relationships between libraries
08:16 kados paul: I don't think it's exactly right for Koha though as it goes too deep (into biblios)
08:16 paul i have the mails, but some very urgent things to do before.
08:17 kados paul: ok ... well whenever you can ...
10:11 owen paul, are you around?
10:11 paul yes
10:11 owen I'm curious about your response to thd's question about mapping item information
10:12 owen He was curious why item info has to be mapped to the same tag
10:12 owen I said it probably has to do with keeping it in
10:12 paul yes & no.
10:13 paul if you map 2 fields to items that would be highly tricker to manage 2 items for a biblio.
10:13 paul as you would have (for example, with 995 & 996 being items tab) :
10:13 paul 200$atitle $f author
10:13 paul 995 $a item1 info
10:14 paul 996 $a item other info
10:14 paul 995 $a another item info
10:14 paul 996 $a another item other info
10:14 paul how to be sure that the 1st 995 goes with the 1st 996 & not with the 2nd ?
10:15 paul in SUDOC (UNIMARC for french universities) they use 906/907/908 for items.
10:15 paul and a $3 to be sure to merge them correctly
10:15 paul but most ILS, in fact, when importing sudoc, merge the 3 in a single marc tag.
10:15 paul does this make sense ?
10:16 owen Yeah it does.  I'm not sure why thd considers that a bad way of doing things.  Maybe he just doesn't like the fact that it's not possible.
10:18 kados well it's a real pain if you've got item information in 852 and you have to move it to 952
10:18 paul ???
10:18 kados with MARC21 we have to move all item info from 852 to 952
10:18 paul why ?
10:18 kados when we're migrating
10:19 paul because there is information not related to items in 852 ?
10:19 kados probably yes
10:19 paul (that you have to keep)
10:19 kados I don't remember the specifics though
10:19 kados I think biblioitem stuff is also in 952
10:21 kados hmmm ... I don't see it in the default MARC21
10:22 kados hmm m... not seeing anything in NPL's MARC mappings either
10:22 kados so that must not be the reason
10:23 kados I'll have to ask Stephen
10:23 kados owen: do you remember?
10:23 owen No
10:28 kados just spoke to stephen
10:28 kados he said the main reason was that NPL already had stuff in 952
10:28 kados and a secondary reason was that 952 is more flexible
10:28 kados since it's locally defined
10:29 kados whereas 852 is limited by the standard definitions
10:36 owen thd, any comments on all that?
10:38 kados paul: is there a way to seperate call number in Koha?
10:38 kados for example, in Sagebrush installations you've got:
10:38 kados 852$k is call number prefix
10:38 kados        852$k is call number main
10:38 kados        852$i is call number cutter
10:38 kados        852$m is call number suffix
10:38 thd kados: 852 would be the standard place to store much of the items information in MARC21, but not all.  In the Koha Diary there is an email from paul recommending the use of unassigned 852 subfields.
10:40 paul there is none in non-MARC part of the DB.
10:41 thd At some point items were switched to 952 for NPL.  Certainly a better choice than using an unassigned subfields that might be assigned for a different purpose in future.
10:42 thd kados: does Sagebrush use 852 $p ?
10:42 kados thd: yes
10:42 kados        852$6 is format
10:42 kados        852$p is barcode
10:42 kados        852$9 is cost
10:42 kados        852$8 is accession date
10:42 kados        852$k is call number prefix
10:42 kados        852$k is call number main
10:42 kados        852$i is call number cutter
10:42 kados        852$m is call number suffix
10:48 kados thd: Koha lists 852p as 'Piece designation (NR)
10:48 kados thd: is that the standard place to store barcodes in MARC21?
10:48 thd kados: You need a script to concatenate 852 $k$i$m
10:48 kados thd: already got one ;-)
10:49 thd Linking any one of 852 $p to items.barcode; 850 $a, 852 $a, or 852$b to items.homebranch; 541 $b to items.price; 365 $b to items.replacementprice; 852 $b to items.holdingsbranch; 852 $c, 852 $j, 852 $x, or $852 $z to items.stack results in the following error message from MARC Check.
10:49 thd "item fields
10:49 thd ALL items fields MUST :
10:49 thd    * be mapped to the same tag,
10:49 thd    * and they must all be in the 10 (items) tab"
10:50 thd kados: above would be a MARC21 standards mapping
10:50 owen thd, did you read paul's explanation above?
10:51 thd owen: yes, the explanation is based on UNIMARC practice.  I am not sure I understood it entirely.
10:51 paul let me explain in a few words :
10:51 paul if you have 2 items.
10:52 paul you bought the 1st USD10 and the 2nd USD8
10:52 paul one has barcode 1, one barcode 432
10:52 paul how do you know which one you bought USD10 ?
10:52 thd paul: by the linking subfield
10:54 thd thd hope he is correct about this because he has just guessed now that he understands the problem :)
10:54 thd s/hope/hopes
10:55 thd I have just guessed :-)
10:56 kados paul: there must be a way since all other MARC21 implementations I know of use 852 ...
10:56 kados paul: erp ... I don't mean use 852
10:57 paul but you can use 852 in Koha !
10:57 kados paul: right ;-)
10:57 kados paul: it was a mistake ... I mean other MARC21 implementations don't have the limitation of having all item info in a single tag
10:57 kados paul: unless I am wrong ;-)
11:31 thd paul: One cannot use 852 and other fields also in Koha.  I would like to use 852 for what 852 provides in the standard and 952 or another local use field together, instead of using unassigned 852 subfields to try to fit everything into 852.
11:31 thd paul: I am going to ask your price question on the autocat list.  The list is moderated so the question may not appear today.
11:32 thd paul: I have never understood how $8 field link and sequence number in MARC21 is supposed to work well enough.  The explanatory examples I have seen are very short on explanation, having none.  $8 usage is just not covered well if at all in any reference I have.
11:32 paul it's time to leave. The mediteranean see is waiting impatiently for my arrival ;-)
11:57 thd Oops, in my example mappng above, s/541 $b/541 $h/

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