Time  Nick      Message
15:50 owen      wb logbot!
15:52 chris     heya owen
15:53 owen      Hi chris.  Network problems over there today?
15:53 chris     worse
15:53 chris     We had power problems at AT/T house about 10:10pm last night (Wed Jul
15:53 chris     20), which caused a circuit breaker to blow on the UPS.  I've installed
15:53 chris     another UPS to spread the load, and started everything up.
15:54 owen      Drag.
15:54 chris     that was from si last night .. sounds like he had a crappy night
15:55 chris     i slept through it all
16:04 tim       Does anyone know if it's ok to change the tab that tags show in by just updating the tab field in marc_subfield_structure?
16:05 owen      Anything except for item fields, I think
16:21 thd       owen: why are the item fields a special problem?
16:22 owen      Because they have to be handled by additem.pl, I think.
16:22 owen      Instead of addbiblio.pl
16:22 kados     chris: morning chris
16:22 kados     chris: rough morning eh? ;-)
16:23 chris     not so much for me, rough night for si tho .. few issues left this morning
16:26 chris     http://www.lilrc.org/newsletter/v23n4.pdf  take a look at page 3
16:27 thd       owen: I noticed that if I link something in the items table to an 852 field, for example, I get an error in MARC Check.
16:31 thd       chris: Was it HLT or Katipo that first suggested releasing Koha under GPL?
16:31 chris     i think it was katipo who suggested it
16:31 chris     but that was well before it was written
16:32 chris     if that makes sense
16:32 chris     ie we didnt write something, then decide to gpl it
16:32 thd       owen: why would additem.pl need to be less flexible than addbiblio.pl ?
16:33 chris     so we recommended and HLT agreed that we would write koha with the idea that we would release it under the gpl
16:33 owen      paul could probably answer that question, thd
16:34 owen      paul did the bulk of the work on Koha's MARC capabilities, so he's the one to answer that kind of question
16:36 thd       chris: Were they easily persuaded about the software being written under the GPL as opposed to some other license, or even closed source like far to many other library projects?
16:36 chris     http://koha.org/about/story.html
16:37 chris     they are smart ppl
16:37 chris     they werent hard to persuade
16:40 owen      They also came at a different point in the process than most libraries.  Most libraries look to buy something pre-written.  They were already asking for something to be written from scratch
16:41 thd       chris: thank you for the exact link, I had not noticed the story link on the about page.  The internet archive was also much too slow while koha.org was down.
16:41 rach      they looked to buy something pre-written first - but there wasn't anything that fit their circumstances
16:41 chris     welll they werent really owen
16:41 chris     yeah what rach said
16:42 chris     they did the full rfp process
16:42 rach      and only when none of those packages were any good (or in their budget - particularly in the long term) did we discuss writing something
16:43 chris     but it appears the big vendors dont actually read the libraries requirements :)
16:43 chris     we also looked for something that was already written
16:43 owen      They probably think you'll just be wowed by the promo materials
16:43 chris     (im lazy .. if i could have just taken an existing project and added to it, i would have)
16:44 rach      I think we looked at like the avanti project and got all excited, before finding out he hadn't actually written it yet
16:44 rach      it was just a spec
16:45 thd       chris: Most libraries contracting software to be written keep the code to themselves, if it becomes theirs, and charge other libraries to use it so they can recover their development investment.  Which, seems to me a backwards idea for libraries serving the public good.
16:45 rach      we did talk about that - but "got rea" that neither we nor HLT had what you might call a marketing budget to do that
16:46 owen      thd, do you know any examples of that?
16:46 rach      - got real
16:46 rach      that is
16:46 rach      so they didn't have anyone with pretensions to become a library system vendor
16:46 thd       owen: most examples are that
16:47 thd       owen: OpenILL is just one I had looked at most recently.
16:48 rach      we decided that the key indicator of success for Koha for the library, and perhaps key predicator of disaster in the longer term, was other people using it
16:48 owen      So thd, OpenILL was something a library developed for themselves and now they're selling it to other people?
16:48 rach      so if no one else used it, it would be unlikely to  last 10 years
16:49 thd       rach: there are still not enough other people using it :)
16:49 thd       rach: but there will be
16:50 rach      yep I think there will be
16:50 chris     all depends or your definition of enough :)
16:51 thd       chris: enough will be when every library at least seriously considers it
16:51 rach      :-) that's what I like - big dreams
16:52 thd       owen: OpenILL was developed with the GPL in mind, but has been run as a service to recover costs without code distribution
16:53 owen      Were any of the top ILS's developed by libraries and later spun off as a business?
16:53 thd       owen: at least OpenILL has the intention of releasing code
16:53 rach      yep I think so
16:53 rach      is open ILL the pines project?
16:53 rach      or something else?
16:54 thd       rach: something else
16:54 thd       rach: http://www.openill.org/
16:55 thd       rach: What were you answering with "yes I think so"?
16:56 thd       s/yes/yep
16:56 rach      oh that other libraries have built systems
16:56 rach      and sold them
16:56 rach      but they tend to form a company to do it
16:56 thd       rach: full ILS systems?
16:57 thd       :)
16:57 thd       rach: let me know if you do remember
16:57 owen      thd, were you thinking of other examples as well?
16:57 rach      that was my understanding - it may have beena  company that approached a number of libraries and got the funding from them to do it -
16:58 rach      rosalie might know
16:58 rach      certainly libraries in NZ have built bespoke systems in the past with varying degrees of success
16:59 thd       owen: most software developed by libraries is not distributed.  Another example I recently came across was an OpenURL resolver service.
17:05 thd       rach: I was particularly interested in the possibility that a major ILS company may be the offshoot of a development project funded by a library receiving public funds to create the software in the first place.  It goes on all the time really when companies contract with tax supported entities but I would be curious about the founding of any of the major ILS companies.
17:11 thd       rach: The world is grateful that neither HLT nor Katipo had anyone with pretencions to become a library systems vendor at the time you were creating Koha :)
17:15 rach      :-)
17:15 rach      well it paid off for us certainly
17:23 rach      thd - I think most library companies would have grown up like that - I know that they "pre sell" sort of shares in new features to raise the funds to do the development
17:24 rach      so I suspect that you would find that most library systems have something like that in their past
17:24 thd       rach: The momentum for FOSS is still too recent for other libraries to appreciate the FOSS model as they should.  Actually, the closed source model is the brief interruption in the historic use of software.  Closed source is just the brief interruption that most people grew up with and understand better.
17:25 rach      yep - but I think it's why libraries seem to have some difficulty understanding why OS is different - because they already fund new developments etc
17:25 rach      or they have done in the past
17:25 thd       rach: I wish I knew how to identify the actual source of how library companies grew up to use in a presentation.
17:26 rach      if you can get hold of him, try talking to Pat Eyler (maybe send him a personal mail) he has worked in and around library vendors in the past, and I think would have a good general knowledge
17:27 thd       rach: Was he at Katipo when Koha was first developed?
17:31 thd       rach: Is Pat Eyler pate-away?
17:32 rach      yes he is
17:32 rach      and no pat's in the states, he hasn't worked for us
17:33 thd       rach: Is he ever pate or always pate-away? :)
17:33 rach      :-)
17:33 rach      very occasionally he's pate
20:54 pate-away rach, thanks for the vote of confidence
21:29 pate      hmm, i decide to make an appearance, and everyone is off doing other stuff.  i see how it is.
21:42 thd       pate: I am here doing other stuff :)
21:44 thd       pate: you should announce your appearance with a thunderclap to get everyones attention
21:53 thd       pate: "1983 | Based on BYU-created library programming, a team of former BYU staff and grads James Wilson, Paul Sybrowski, Keith Wilson, and Ralph Egan create DYNIX, now the world?s largest library-automation company." http://magazine.byu.edu/article.tpl?num=46-Win04
21:55 chris     and one of the hardest to migrate from
21:55 chris     perhaps thats by design
21:59 thd       chris: what especially complicates the migration process?
22:00 chris     having no way to export the data is a good start :)
22:00 chris     we got there in the end, buy installing uniVerse shifting the binaries of the data to the machine
22:01 rach      hey pat
22:01 thd       chris: you mean the system will not even dump the records in MARC communications format?
22:02 thd       chris: What is uniVerse?
22:03 chris     nope it wont, uniVerse is the database its built on
22:03 chris     this is an old version of dynix .. at least 10 years old
22:03 chris     ibm own uniVerse now
22:03 chris     and have a free version luckily
22:04 pate      hiya rach
22:04 pate      uniVerse is a PICK like system
22:04 chris     it sure is :) heya pate
22:05 pate      actually, I think you could write a PICK-Basic program to dump the data out in any format you wanted to ... finding someone with the expertise to do so is another matter
22:05 chris     luckily we found someone who was familair with dynix and we starting poking at things in the uniVerse shell, and got the data out
22:05 pate      not to mention that i think you'd be violating your license with dynix
22:05 chris     probably
22:06 thd       chris: I would never enter data into a progarm without a standards compliant export feature, but I guess not everyone beards that in mind when choosing a system :)
22:06 pate      thd, i'm not sure i merit thunderclaps ...
22:06 chris     often you dont have a lot of choice
22:06 chris     well small libraries in nz sure didnt
22:06 chris     you get what the vendor deigns to give you .. and you be happy about it
22:06 chris     :)
22:07 pate      and if that doesn't steer you towards free software, I don't know what will ;)
22:07 thd       chris: you mean none of the competition would have a standards based export feature either?
22:08 chris     10 years ago ... i doubt one that they could afford
22:08 thd       pate: just clapping then
22:09 chris     :)
22:10 pate      so chris, have you had a chance to play with Rails at all?
22:11 thd       chris: 10 years ago more software had a greater degree of vendor lock in than 5 years ago.  I am eternally surprised to see what vendors still try to get away with in terms of that though.
22:12 chris     nope not yet pat
22:13 chris     thd: oh yeah
22:13 thd       Sirsi has acquiring Dynix is not likely to promote competition
22:13 thd       s/has//
22:18 chris     the ILS vendor market is almost as confusing as hte media one .. everyone keeps buying everyone else, or changing their names
22:21 thd       chris: If you change your name often enough, you can sell everyone the same thing three times and they think they will be getting something new each time.
22:21 chris     good point :)
22:30 pate      well, /me needs to go back into lurk mode ... I've got an article to finish tonight and I'm getting tired
22:31 chris     cya pate
22:31 pate-lurk i'll be around (though email is always the best way to get me)
08:12 kados     afternoon paul
08:12 paul      morning joshua
08:13 hdl       hi joshua.
08:14 kados     afternoon hdl
08:14 kados     paul: did you get the forwarded messages from Mike Rylander about multi-branch support in PINES?
08:15 kados     paul: there's some interesting stuff in there about how PINES is handling the 'arbitrary tree' for relationships between libraries
08:16 kados     paul: I don't think it's exactly right for Koha though as it goes too deep (into biblios)
08:16 paul      i have the mails, but some very urgent things to do before.
08:17 kados     paul: ok ... well whenever you can ...
10:11 owen      paul, are you around?
10:11 paul      yes
10:11 owen      I'm curious about your response to thd's question about mapping item information
10:12 owen      He was curious why item info has to be mapped to the same tag
10:12 owen      I said it probably has to do with keeping it in additems.pl
10:12 paul      yes & no.
10:13 paul      if you map 2 fields to items that would be highly tricker to manage 2 items for a biblio.
10:13 paul      as you would have (for example, with 995 & 996 being items tab) :
10:13 paul      200$atitle $f author
10:13 paul      995 $a item1 info
10:14 paul      996 $a item other info
10:14 paul      995 $a another item info
10:14 paul      996 $a another item other info
10:14 paul      how to be sure that the 1st 995 goes with the 1st 996 & not with the 2nd ?
10:15 paul      in SUDOC (UNIMARC for french universities) they use 906/907/908 for items.
10:15 paul      and a $3 to be sure to merge them correctly
10:15 paul      but most ILS, in fact, when importing sudoc, merge the 3 in a single marc tag.
10:15 paul      does this make sense ?
10:16 owen      Yeah it does.  I'm not sure why thd considers that a bad way of doing things.  Maybe he just doesn't like the fact that it's not possible.
10:18 kados     well it's a real pain if you've got item information in 852 and you have to move it to 952
10:18 paul      ???
10:18 kados     with MARC21 we have to move all item info from 852 to 952
10:18 paul      why ?
10:18 kados     when we're migrating
10:19 paul      because there is information not related to items in 852 ?
10:19 kados     probably yes
10:19 paul      (that you have to keep)
10:19 kados     I don't remember the specifics though
10:19 kados     I think biblioitem stuff is also in 952
10:21 kados     hmmm ... I don't see it in the default MARC21
10:22 kados     hmm m... not seeing anything in NPL's MARC mappings either
10:22 kados     so that must not be the reason
10:23 kados     I'll have to ask Stephen
10:23 kados     owen: do you remember?
10:23 owen      No
10:28 kados     just spoke to stephen
10:28 kados     he said the main reason was that NPL already had stuff in 952
10:28 kados     and a secondary reason was that 952 is more flexible
10:28 kados     since it's locally defined
10:29 kados     whereas 852 is limited by the standard definitions
10:36 owen      thd, any comments on all that?
10:38 kados     paul: is there a way to seperate call number in Koha?
10:38 kados     for example, in Sagebrush installations you've got:
10:38 kados     852$k is call number prefix
10:38 kados             852$k is call number main
10:38 kados             852$i is call number cutter
10:38 kados             852$m is call number suffix
10:38 thd       kados: 852 would be the standard place to store much of the items information in MARC21, but not all.  In the Koha Diary there is an email from paul recommending the use of unassigned 852 subfields.
10:40 paul      there is none in non-MARC part of the DB.
10:41 thd       At some point items were switched to 952 for NPL.  Certainly a better choice than using an unassigned subfields that might be assigned for a different purpose in future.
10:42 thd       kados: does Sagebrush use 852 $p ?
10:42 kados     thd: yes
10:42 kados             852$6 is format
10:42 kados             852$p is barcode
10:42 kados             852$9 is cost
10:42 kados             852$8 is accession date
10:42 kados             852$k is call number prefix
10:42 kados             852$k is call number main
10:42 kados             852$i is call number cutter
10:42 kados             852$m is call number suffix
10:48 kados     thd: Koha lists 852p as 'Piece designation (NR)
10:48 kados     thd: is that the standard place to store barcodes in MARC21?
10:48 thd       kados: You need a script to concatenate 852 $k$i$m
10:48 kados     thd: already got one ;-)
10:49 thd       Linking any one of 852 $p to items.barcode; 850 $a, 852 $a, or 852$b to items.homebranch; 541 $b to items.price; 365 $b to items.replacementprice; 852 $b to items.holdingsbranch; 852 $c, 852 $j, 852 $x, or $852 $z to items.stack results in the following error message from MARC Check.
10:49 thd       "item fields
10:49 thd       ALL items fields MUST :
10:49 thd           * be mapped to the same tag,
10:49 thd           * and they must all be in the 10 (items) tab"
10:50 thd       kados: above would be a MARC21 standards mapping
10:50 owen      thd, did you read paul's explanation above?
10:51 thd       owen: yes, the explanation is based on UNIMARC practice.  I am not sure I understood it entirely.
10:51 paul      let me explain in a few words :
10:51 paul      if you have 2 items.
10:52 paul      you bought the 1st USD10 and the 2nd USD8
10:52 paul      one has barcode 1, one barcode 432
10:52 paul      how do you know which one you bought USD10 ?
10:52 thd       paul: by the linking subfield
10:54 thd       thd hope he is correct about this because he has just guessed now that he understands the problem :)
10:54 thd       s/hope/hopes
10:55 thd       I have just guessed :-)
10:56 kados     paul: there must be a way since all other MARC21 implementations I know of use 852 ...
10:56 kados     paul: erp ... I don't mean use 852
10:57 paul      but you can use 852 in Koha !
10:57 kados     paul: right ;-)
10:57 kados     paul: it was a mistake ... I mean other MARC21 implementations don't have the limitation of having all item info in a single tag
10:57 kados     paul: unless I am wrong ;-)
11:31 thd       paul: One cannot use 852 and other fields also in Koha.  I would like to use 852 for what 852 provides in the standard and 952 or another local use field together, instead of using unassigned 852 subfields to try to fit everything into 852.
11:31 thd       paul: I am going to ask your price question on the autocat list.  The list is moderated so the question may not appear today.
11:32 thd       paul: I have never understood how $8 field link and sequence number in MARC21 is supposed to work well enough.  The explanatory examples I have seen are very short on explanation, having none.  $8 usage is just not covered well if at all in any reference I have.
11:32 paul      it's time to leave. The mediteranean see is waiting impatiently for my arrival ;-)
11:57 thd       Oops, in my example mappng above, s/541 $b/541 $h/