Time Nick Message 11:57 thd Oops, in my example mappng above, s/541 $b/541 $h/ 11:32 paul it's time to leave. The mediteranean see is waiting impatiently for my arrival ;-) 11:32 thd paul: I have never understood how $8 field link and sequence number in MARC21 is supposed to work well enough. The explanatory examples I have seen are very short on explanation, having none. $8 usage is just not covered well if at all in any reference I have. 11:31 thd paul: I am going to ask your price question on the autocat list. The list is moderated so the question may not appear today. 11:31 thd paul: One cannot use 852 and other fields also in Koha. I would like to use 852 for what 852 provides in the standard and 952 or another local use field together, instead of using unassigned 852 subfields to try to fit everything into 852. 10:57 kados paul: unless I am wrong ;-) 10:57 kados paul: it was a mistake ... I mean other MARC21 implementations don't have the limitation of having all item info in a single tag 10:57 kados paul: right ;-) 10:57 paul but you can use 852 in Koha ! 10:56 kados paul: erp ... I don't mean use 852 10:56 kados paul: there must be a way since all other MARC21 implementations I know of use 852 ... 10:55 thd I have just guessed :-) 10:54 thd s/hope/hopes 10:54 thd thd hope he is correct about this because he has just guessed now that he understands the problem :) 10:52 thd paul: by the linking subfield 10:52 paul how do you know which one you bought USD10 ? 10:52 paul one has barcode 1, one barcode 432 10:52 paul you bought the 1st USD10 and the 2nd USD8 10:51 paul if you have 2 items. 10:51 paul let me explain in a few words : 10:51 thd owen: yes, the explanation is based on UNIMARC practice. I am not sure I understood it entirely. 10:50 owen thd, did you read paul's explanation above? 10:50 thd kados: above would be a MARC21 standards mapping 10:49 thd * and they must all be in the 10 (items) tab" 10:49 thd * be mapped to the same tag, 10:49 thd ALL items fields MUST : 10:49 thd "item fields 10:49 thd Linking any one of 852 $p to items.barcode; 850 $a, 852 $a, or 852$b to items.homebranch; 541 $b to items.price; 365 $b to items.replacementprice; 852 $b to items.holdingsbranch; 852 $c, 852 $j, 852 $x, or $852 $z to items.stack results in the following error message from MARC Check. 10:48 kados thd: already got one ;-) 10:48 thd kados: You need a script to concatenate 852 $k$i$m 10:48 kados thd: is that the standard place to store barcodes in MARC21? 10:48 kados thd: Koha lists 852p as 'Piece designation (NR) 10:42 kados 852$m is call number suffix 10:42 kados 852$i is call number cutter 10:42 kados 852$k is call number main 10:42 kados 852$k is call number prefix 10:42 kados 852$8 is accession date 10:42 kados 852$9 is cost 10:42 kados 852$p is barcode 10:42 kados 852$6 is format 10:42 kados thd: yes 10:42 thd kados: does Sagebrush use 852 $p ? 10:41 thd At some point items were switched to 952 for NPL. Certainly a better choice than using an unassigned subfields that might be assigned for a different purpose in future. 10:40 paul there is none in non-MARC part of the DB. 10:38 thd kados: 852 would be the standard place to store much of the items information in MARC21, but not all. In the Koha Diary there is an email from paul recommending the use of unassigned 852 subfields. 10:38 kados 852$m is call number suffix 10:38 kados 852$i is call number cutter 10:38 kados 852$k is call number main 10:38 kados 852$k is call number prefix 10:38 kados for example, in Sagebrush installations you've got: 10:38 kados paul: is there a way to seperate call number in Koha? 10:36 owen thd, any comments on all that? 10:29 kados whereas 852 is limited by the standard definitions 10:28 kados since it's locally defined 10:28 kados and a secondary reason was that 952 is more flexible 10:28 kados he said the main reason was that NPL already had stuff in 952 10:28 kados just spoke to stephen 10:23 owen No 10:23 kados owen: do you remember? 10:23 kados I'll have to ask Stephen 10:22 kados so that must not be the reason 10:22 kados hmm m... not seeing anything in NPL's MARC mappings either 10:21 kados hmmm ... I don't see it in the default MARC21 10:19 kados I think biblioitem stuff is also in 952 10:19 kados I don't remember the specifics though 10:19 paul (that you have to keep) 10:19 kados probably yes 10:19 paul because there is information not related to items in 852 ? 10:18 kados when we're migrating 10:18 paul why ? 10:18 kados with MARC21 we have to move all item info from 852 to 952 10:18 paul ??? 10:18 kados well it's a real pain if you've got item information in 852 and you have to move it to 952 10:16 owen Yeah it does. I'm not sure why thd considers that a bad way of doing things. Maybe he just doesn't like the fact that it's not possible. 10:15 paul does this make sense ? 10:15 paul but most ILS, in fact, when importing sudoc, merge the 3 in a single marc tag. 10:15 paul and a $3 to be sure to merge them correctly 10:15 paul in SUDOC (UNIMARC for french universities) they use 906/907/908 for items. 10:14 paul how to be sure that the 1st 995 goes with the 1st 996 & not with the 2nd ? 10:14 paul 996 $a another item other info 10:14 paul 995 $a another item info 10:14 paul 996 $a item other info 10:13 paul 995 $a item1 info 10:13 paul 200$atitle $f author 10:13 paul as you would have (for example, with 995 & 996 being items tab) : 10:13 paul if you map 2 fields to items that would be highly tricker to manage 2 items for a biblio. 10:12 paul yes & no. 10:12 owen I said it probably has to do with keeping it in additems.pl 10:12 owen He was curious why item info has to be mapped to the same tag 10:11 owen I'm curious about your response to thd's question about mapping item information 10:11 paul yes 10:11 owen paul, are you around? 08:17 kados paul: ok ... well whenever you can ... 08:16 paul i have the mails, but some very urgent things to do before. 08:16 kados paul: I don't think it's exactly right for Koha though as it goes too deep (into biblios) 08:15 kados paul: there's some interesting stuff in there about how PINES is handling the 'arbitrary tree' for relationships between libraries 08:14 kados paul: did you get the forwarded messages from Mike Rylander about multi-branch support in PINES? 08:14 kados afternoon hdl 08:13 hdl hi joshua. 08:12 paul morning joshua 08:12 kados afternoon paul 22:31 pate-lurk i'll be around (though email is always the best way to get me) 22:31 chris cya pate 22:30 pate well, /me needs to go back into lurk mode ... I've got an article to finish tonight and I'm getting tired 22:21 chris good point :) 22:21 thd chris: If you change your name often enough, you can sell everyone the same thing three times and they think they will be getting something new each time. 22:18 chris the ILS vendor market is almost as confusing as hte media one .. everyone keeps buying everyone else, or changing their names 22:13 thd s/has// 22:13 thd Sirsi has acquiring Dynix is not likely to promote competition 22:13 chris thd: oh yeah 22:12 chris nope not yet pat 22:11 thd chris: 10 years ago more software had a greater degree of vendor lock in than 5 years ago. I am eternally surprised to see what vendors still try to get away with in terms of that though. 22:10 pate so chris, have you had a chance to play with Rails at all? 22:09 chris :) 22:08 thd pate: just clapping then 22:08 chris 10 years ago ... i doubt one that they could afford 22:07 thd chris: you mean none of the competition would have a standards based export feature either? 22:07 pate and if that doesn't steer you towards free software, I don't know what will ;) 22:06 chris :) 22:06 chris you get what the vendor deigns to give you .. and you be happy about it 22:06 chris well small libraries in nz sure didnt 22:06 chris often you dont have a lot of choice 22:06 pate thd, i'm not sure i merit thunderclaps ... 22:06 thd chris: I would never enter data into a progarm without a standards compliant export feature, but I guess not everyone beards that in mind when choosing a system :) 22:05 chris probably 22:05 pate not to mention that i think you'd be violating your license with dynix 22:05 chris luckily we found someone who was familair with dynix and we starting poking at things in the uniVerse shell, and got the data out 22:05 pate actually, I think you could write a PICK-Basic program to dump the data out in any format you wanted to ... finding someone with the expertise to do so is another matter 22:04 chris it sure is :) heya pate 22:04 pate uniVerse is a PICK like system 22:04 pate hiya rach 22:03 chris and have a free version luckily 22:03 chris ibm own uniVerse now 22:03 chris this is an old version of dynix .. at least 10 years old 22:03 chris nope it wont, uniVerse is the database its built on 22:02 thd chris: What is uniVerse? 22:01 thd chris: you mean the system will not even dump the records in MARC communications format? 22:01 rach hey pat 22:00 chris we got there in the end, buy installing uniVerse shifting the binaries of the data to the machine 22:00 chris having no way to export the data is a good start :) 21:59 thd chris: what especially complicates the migration process? 21:55 chris perhaps thats by design 21:55 chris and one of the hardest to migrate from 21:53 thd pate: "1983 | Based on BYU-created library programming, a team of former BYU staff and grads James Wilson, Paul Sybrowski, Keith Wilson, and Ralph Egan create DYNIX, now the world?s largest library-automation company." http://magazine.byu.edu/article.tpl?num=46-Win04 21:44 thd pate: you should announce your appearance with a thunderclap to get everyones attention 21:42 thd pate: I am here doing other stuff :) 21:29 pate hmm, i decide to make an appearance, and everyone is off doing other stuff. i see how it is. 20:54 pate-away rach, thanks for the vote of confidence 17:33 rach very occasionally he's pate 17:33 rach :-) 17:33 thd rach: Is he ever pate or always pate-away? :) 17:32 rach and no pat's in the states, he hasn't worked for us 17:32 rach yes he is 17:31 thd rach: Is Pat Eyler pate-away? 17:27 thd rach: Was he at Katipo when Koha was first developed? 17:26 rach if you can get hold of him, try talking to Pat Eyler (maybe send him a personal mail) he has worked in and around library vendors in the past, and I think would have a good general knowledge 17:25 thd rach: I wish I knew how to identify the actual source of how library companies grew up to use in a presentation. 17:25 rach or they have done in the past 17:25 rach yep - but I think it's why libraries seem to have some difficulty understanding why OS is different - because they already fund new developments etc 17:24 thd rach: The momentum for FOSS is still too recent for other libraries to appreciate the FOSS model as they should. Actually, the closed source model is the brief interruption in the historic use of software. Closed source is just the brief interruption that most people grew up with and understand better. 17:24 rach so I suspect that you would find that most library systems have something like that in their past 17:23 rach thd - I think most library companies would have grown up like that - I know that they "pre sell" sort of shares in new features to raise the funds to do the development 17:15 rach well it paid off for us certainly 17:15 rach :-) 17:11 thd rach: The world is grateful that neither HLT nor Katipo had anyone with pretencions to become a library systems vendor at the time you were creating Koha :) 17:05 thd rach: I was particularly interested in the possibility that a major ILS company may be the offshoot of a development project funded by a library receiving public funds to create the software in the first place. It goes on all the time really when companies contract with tax supported entities but I would be curious about the founding of any of the major ILS companies. 16:59 thd owen: most software developed by libraries is not distributed. Another example I recently came across was an OpenURL resolver service. 16:58 rach certainly libraries in NZ have built bespoke systems in the past with varying degrees of success 16:58 rach rosalie might know 16:57 rach that was my understanding - it may have beena company that approached a number of libraries and got the funding from them to do it - 16:57 owen thd, were you thinking of other examples as well? 16:57 thd rach: let me know if you do remember 16:57 thd :) 16:56 thd rach: full ILS systems? 16:56 rach but they tend to form a company to do it 16:56 rach and sold them 16:56 rach oh that other libraries have built systems 16:56 thd s/yes/yep 16:55 thd rach: What were you answering with "yes I think so"? 16:54 thd rach: http://www.openill.org/ 16:54 thd rach: something else 16:53 rach or something else? 16:53 rach is open ILL the pines project? 16:53 rach yep I think so 16:53 thd owen: at least OpenILL has the intention of releasing code 16:53 owen Were any of the top ILS's developed by libraries and later spun off as a business? 16:52 thd owen: OpenILL was developed with the GPL in mind, but has been run as a service to recover costs without code distribution 16:51 rach :-) that's what I like - big dreams 16:51 thd chris: enough will be when every library at least seriously considers it 16:50 chris all depends or your definition of enough :) 16:50 rach yep I think there will be 16:49 thd rach: but there will be 16:49 thd rach: there are still not enough other people using it :) 16:48 rach so if no one else used it, it would be unlikely to last 10 years 16:48 owen So thd, OpenILL was something a library developed for themselves and now they're selling it to other people? 16:48 rach we decided that the key indicator of success for Koha for the library, and perhaps key predicator of disaster in the longer term, was other people using it 16:47 thd owen: OpenILL is just one I had looked at most recently. 16:46 thd owen: most examples are that 16:46 rach so they didn't have anyone with pretensions to become a library system vendor 16:46 rach that is 16:46 rach - got real 16:46 owen thd, do you know any examples of that? 16:45 rach we did talk about that - but "got rea" that neither we nor HLT had what you might call a marketing budget to do that 16:45 thd chris: Most libraries contracting software to be written keep the code to themselves, if it becomes theirs, and charge other libraries to use it so they can recover their development investment. Which, seems to me a backwards idea for libraries serving the public good. 16:44 rach it was just a spec 16:44 rach I think we looked at like the avanti project and got all excited, before finding out he hadn't actually written it yet 16:43 chris (im lazy .. if i could have just taken an existing project and added to it, i would have) 16:43 owen They probably think you'll just be wowed by the promo materials 16:43 chris we also looked for something that was already written 16:43 chris but it appears the big vendors dont actually read the libraries requirements :) 16:42 rach and only when none of those packages were any good (or in their budget - particularly in the long term) did we discuss writing something 16:42 chris they did the full rfp process 16:41 chris yeah what rach said 16:41 chris welll they werent really owen 16:41 rach they looked to buy something pre-written first - but there wasn't anything that fit their circumstances 16:41 thd chris: thank you for the exact link, I had not noticed the story link on the about page. The internet archive was also much too slow while koha.org was down. 16:40 owen They also came at a different point in the process than most libraries. Most libraries look to buy something pre-written. They were already asking for something to be written from scratch 16:37 chris they werent hard to persuade 16:37 chris they are smart ppl 16:36 chris http://koha.org/about/story.html 16:36 thd chris: Were they easily persuaded about the software being written under the GPL as opposed to some other license, or even closed source like far to many other library projects? 16:34 owen paul did the bulk of the work on Koha's MARC capabilities, so he's the one to answer that kind of question 16:33 owen paul could probably answer that question, thd 16:33 chris so we recommended and HLT agreed that we would write koha with the idea that we would release it under the gpl 16:32 thd owen: why would additem.pl need to be less flexible than addbiblio.pl ? 16:32 chris ie we didnt write something, then decide to gpl it 16:32 chris if that makes sense 16:31 chris but that was well before it was written 16:31 chris i think it was katipo who suggested it 16:31 thd chris: Was it HLT or Katipo that first suggested releasing Koha under GPL? 16:27 thd owen: I noticed that if I link something in the items table to an 852 field, for example, I get an error in MARC Check. 16:26 chris http://www.lilrc.org/newsletter/v23n4.pdf take a look at page 3 16:23 chris not so much for me, rough night for si tho .. few issues left this morning 16:22 kados chris: rough morning eh? ;-) 16:22 kados chris: morning chris 16:22 owen Instead of addbiblio.pl 16:22 owen Because they have to be handled by additem.pl, I think. 16:21 thd owen: why are the item fields a special problem? 16:05 owen Anything except for item fields, I think 16:04 tim Does anyone know if it's ok to change the tab that tags show in by just updating the tab field in marc_subfield_structure? 15:55 chris i slept through it all 15:54 chris that was from si last night .. sounds like he had a crappy night 15:54 owen Drag. 15:53 chris another UPS to spread the load, and started everything up. 15:53 chris 20), which caused a circuit breaker to blow on the UPS. I've installed 15:53 chris We had power problems at AT/T house about 10:10pm last night (Wed Jul 15:53 chris worse 15:53 owen Hi chris. Network problems over there today? 15:52 chris heya owen 15:50 owen wb logbot!