IRC log for #koha, 2005-07-01

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:07 indradg kados, hi.... welcome back!
12:09 kados indradg: thanks!
12:29 shaun 2 hours 30 minutes...
12:34 kados I actually have 1 hour 30 minutes :-/
12:34 owen Isn't it 4PM our time, kados?
12:35 indradg kados, any luck with the phone?
12:35 kados yea ... found it
12:35 indradg :)
12:35 kados owen: yep ... my mistake
12:35 kados just realized that
12:35 kados so 2 hours 25 minutes then ;-)
12:36 kados phone was in my couch
12:36 kados :-)
12:38 kados anyone know if anyone has successfully migrated from Sagebrush to Koha?
12:38 kados I see some traffic on the list about it
12:38 kados just wondering if anyone here has done it
13:00 indradg kados, i've an interesting news
13:01 shaun (2 hours)
13:01 indradg Intel India is putting together an Education tech stack based on F/OSS... i'm trying to get Koha in as the ILS component
13:04 indradg kados, if we can get onboard then whenever an Intel business partner (practically everyone) needs to position an ILS solution they will be pointed towards the stack component ;-)
13:17 kados indradg: nice!
13:18 kados indradg: so tell me a bit more about what the Education stack will provide
13:18 kados indradg: will it just list apps or will it also list providers?
13:21 indradg kados, both :)
13:21 indradg "stamped" as "Intel Certified" ;-)
13:21 kados indradg: wow ... that's really sweet
13:22 kados indradg: so will you be the provider for India?
13:22 indradg kados, if it works out... probably yes... Redhat India has also expressed its interest
13:22 indradg in working alongside
13:23 kados fantastic!
13:25 kados indradg: if the deal goes through write a list to #koha announcing it with links etc.
13:25 indradg absolutely!
14:20 slef T-40mins
14:20 indradg slef, did u get my mail?
14:20 slef indradg: yes. Sorry for no reply. Busy busy.
14:21 indradg slef, np
14:21 slef but, hey, I'm dedicated, working while the confederations cup final is on ;-)
14:21 indradg heh
14:31 shaun T minus 30... tension is really building up
14:39 slef shaun: were you copying me, or is it just innate in .uk?
14:43 shaun i restarted my x server, you said t-40 while i was away
14:51 kados about 9 minutes before the meeting
14:51 russter hello
14:51 slef hi russter
14:51 slef are you russ or dean? ;-)
14:52 russ a shared laptop
14:52 kados add stuff to the agenda if you like
14:52 slef what's with tinyurl all day?
14:52 kados hey russ
14:52 kados slef: why do you have a problem with tinyurl?
14:53 kados slef: the wiki link is very long
14:53 kados slef: so it's not going to fit into the topic
14:53 kados hey richard
14:53 richard hi
14:54 slef kados: not that long
14:54 russ hi richard
14:54 slef oops, ?page= :)
14:54 slef and it's wrong page anyway
14:54 slef ho hum
14:55 kados tinyurl 'just works'
14:55 slef kados: not that long
14:56 rach morning
14:56 kados morning rach
14:56 slef Ho hum. I trust katipo more than Gilby.
14:57 kados trust?
14:58 kados T-minus 2 minutes
15:01 slef time, ladies and gentlemen, please!
15:01 kados yep
15:01 kados ok ... let's get started
15:01 kados roll call
15:01 kados who's around?
15:01 slef MJ Ray
15:02 kados rach'll brb (assuming the coffee machine isn't broken ;-))
15:03 kados ok ... we'll give rach a sec
15:03 kados in the meantime ...
15:03 kados
15:03 kados anything to add to the agenda?
15:04 rach back
15:04 russ most of the stuff i would like to talk about falls under number 3 the audience
15:05 kados ok
15:05 kados but let's start at Russ's report
15:05 kados unless you'd like to start elsewhere rach
15:06 rach nope
15:06 kados I know everyone hasn't looked at the wireframes because the views on those files is under 5
15:07 russ they only went up about 12 hours ago :-)
15:07 kados :-)
15:07 russ i would like to get reactions to the objective and scope
15:07 russ[…]bredev/scope.html
15:07 kados yep
15:08 kados I think it outlines nicely our previous discussions
15:08 kados by 'Open CMS' what do you mean russ?
15:08 rach
15:08 shaun
15:08 rach it's a product
15:08 shaun snap
15:08 rach :-)
15:08 kados ahh
15:09 slef bah, why does no-one give these products meaningful names like phpesp any more? ;-)
15:09 kados heh
15:10 rach :-)
15:10 slef I wondered where librarians fit into the developers/users split
15:11 rach aren't they users?
15:11 indradg slef, bridge
15:11 hdl Is there a comparison between openCMS and MAMBO ?
15:11 russ i must admit i havent used it, but chris and richard did a good sell job on me
15:11 kados yea ... I'd say users
15:11 kados hdl: Mambo would be my choice
15:11 hdl I know ;)
15:11 hdl That's why I asked.
15:11 kados :-)
15:11 shaun imo mambo is not as powerful as opencms - not that i know everything about them but mambo is so much simpler
15:11 slef translators were the other group, but they're a group within developers clearly
15:12 kados I like Mambo because it's very modular and easy to admin
15:12 kados and the community's really huge
15:12 rach we're looking at openCMS for some of our bigger CMS projects, so have some vested interest in putting the effort in to get it working for Koha
15:12 kados ok ... as long as someone's got vested interest
15:12 kados :-)
15:13 rach and to make sure it's good :-)
15:14 slef Is there any objection to trying openCMS?
15:14 kados not from me
15:14 slef cool. Any more questions for russ?
15:14 hdl for me neither.
15:14 russ yep the audience
15:15 kados I'm a bit concerned about the documentation pages on
15:15 kados I think it's going to be a pain to maintain two doc sites
15:15 slef russ: what about the audience?
15:15 kados one on and one on
15:15 russ documentation pages?
15:16 russ my view is that the bulk of the site is for people new to koha or considering koha
15:16 russ with an area for the community which acts as a portal to teh community resources
15:16 russ i think we discussed this last time
15:16 kados right ... sorry ... I missread the map
15:17 slef discussed what? kohadocs?
15:17 kados I thought there was a documentation section listed on the map the first time I looked at it
15:18 slef kados: the current map is linked from the tinyurl in the /topic ;-)
15:18 russ my latest version of the site map -[…]edev/sitemap.html
15:18 kados also ... Koha team should be a bit expanded
15:18 kados to include all the key folks
15:18 shaun what purpose does Koha team serve?
15:18 rach that project team are the "jobs" for making the site
15:18 indradg pulls the Koha cart ;)
15:18 kados shaun: credentials of the key players
15:18 rach rather than everyone involved in koha
15:18 kados shaun: lends credibility to the code base
15:19 rach do you men this -[…]/projectteam.html
15:19 russ no
15:19 russ[…]nt/koha-team.html
15:19 russ under the content
15:19 rach or this -
15:19 slef rach: see russ's URL
15:19 kados yea ... that last one
15:20 slef rach: clear?
15:20 kados so I'd like it to look kinda like Debian's "organization" page:
15:20 kados
15:20 rach yep
15:20 slef kados: but be less of a work of fiction, presumably?
15:21 kados ya
15:21 indradg sounds good
15:21 shaun how does that fit in with keeping product and community pages separate then?
15:21 kados this isn't community pages
15:21 kados it's information about each of the key players
15:21 kados maybe even brief bios
15:22 kados to lend credibility to the project's developers
15:22 kados so it looks more like an organized methodical approach to software development
15:22 russ my only concern is that we start increasing the amount of content to be maintained
15:22 kados sure ... but those of us with a vested interest would gladly maintain the content ;-)
15:22 slef If it's for new users, how will it support l10n? (l10n = localisation, 10 letters between l and n, but requires localisation itself!)
15:22 russ i was thinking that we could identify the prim contacts
15:23 russ in this section and that the community pages we could do something
15:23 rach so we want enough people to show there are a good solid number of people involved
15:23 russ but i didnt write that down
15:23 rach but not everyone on the mailing list :-)
15:23 kados rach: exactly
15:23 kados rach: make it look almost like a company bio page
15:24 rach yep - management basically
15:24 kados rach: maybe even with thumbs etc.
15:24 kados exactly
15:24 russ ok as long as it  clear what it takes to get onto that page
15:24 russ i dont have a problem
15:24 slef thumbs?
15:24 kados folks are scared of open source and free software because it seems like anyone can control what code gets into the project
15:24 kados thumbnail photos
15:24 indradg russ, abt more content... how abt a Media link -- all the press / media coverage that Koha gets globally?
15:25 kados indradg: good point
15:25 rach yep - if we know about it now we link it in
15:25 indradg rite
15:25 slef why would anyone want photos of our thumbnails?
15:25 kados hehe
15:25 rach they say a lot about your diet slef
15:25 indradg :P
15:26 russ indrag - could that be a sub category of news?
15:26 indradg russ, cud be
15:26 slef rach: mine damage walls
15:26 russ i think it would be easiest to maintain through some type of news engine
15:26 indradg russ, but a more prominent link perhaps would be grabbing more eyeballs
15:27 kados anything else about russ's design notes?
15:27 rach On the getting people to contribute front, as slef has said, clear instructions/entreaties to people on how to send in news for the site
15:27 rach and i suspect a regular nag on the koha list
15:27 kados yep
15:28 kados ok ... moving along:
15:28 kados 1.  Is the site to be multilingual?
15:28 kados I think yes
15:28 slef Oh, by the way, will opencms be running on mysql and a free software java runtime?
15:28 russ yep
15:28 shaun what will become of then?
15:28 russ sorry that was an anwer to slef
15:28 kados shaun: that's a commercial site
15:28 kados shaun: not really the same thing at all
15:29 kados IMO
15:29 kados (even if it is .org ... erp)
15:29 hdl IMO : It is not only commerciial.
15:29 kados right
15:29 hdl :P
15:29 indradg i agree
15:29 rach that will be up to paul et al
15:30 slef kados: commercial, instead of what?
15:30 hdl It is a french official site for Koha. Both commercial and news...
15:30 kados so we'll have to setup a translation method for the site and decide what languages to support
15:30 rach It would be fantastic for to be multilingual, but hdl do you know how much work that would be?
15:31 hdl Maybe we could think that English would be the base, just like Koha dev
15:31 hdl And then french would translate.
15:32 hdl The pb is when french provides some links ;)
15:32 hdl i.e Login Pratique talked about koha.
15:32 slef rach: cxiuj parolistoj de aliaj lingvoj scias // all speakers of other languages know.
15:32 hdl Login Pratique is a french revue...
15:32 slef ok, exaggeration ;-)
15:33 hdl But hindou could also take part.
15:33 kados so we'll do it in English ... then think about translations after the fact? ... does openCMS support multiple languages in the templating system?
15:33 russ no idea
15:33 russ we will have to look into it
15:33 hdl It is a concern for me...
15:34 kados Mambo does :-/
15:34 kados
15:34 kados ok ... let's look into that ... and we'll decide later on koha-devel
15:35 kados moving along
15:35 kados 2.  Will the site conform to xhtml1/CSS2/WCAG?
15:35 rach yep - sorry client crisis happening as well
15:35 russ WCAG is the accessibility guidelines?
15:35 rach but I suspect not being able to would be a blocker for opencms
15:35 kados yep ... probably
15:35 shaun i will make it comply.
15:35 slef russ:
15:35 slef (yes)
15:36 slef shaun++
15:36 kados shaun: great
15:36 kados don't really understand #3
15:36 kados 3  Developers/Users or Programmers(+Translators)/Librarians/Users?
15:36 kados rach?
15:37 rach sorry - distraction, site just gone live with no warning, imagine one of those submarine scenes with red flashing lights
15:37 shaun that's if i get round to it... i only told russ, i have exams for a while, but 3 weeks time i have my 2 month break and it should be polished and running within the first week
15:37 rach and everyone running around
15:38 slef kados: I think that's been covered.
15:38 rach OK compliance-  yes up to shaun
15:38 shaun woo, responsibility
15:38 shaun heh
15:38 kados rach: has it been covered?
15:38 rach :-)
15:38 slef shaun: woo, culpability ;-)
15:38 kados heh
15:39 shaun :D
15:39 kados if 3 is covered then ...
15:39 kados 4  Is there a site backup plan?
15:39 russ so shaun - you cant do anything till when?
15:39 rach um where is the agenda?
15:40 shaun i can do it, but only around an hour a day, up until 3 weeks time at about 7 hours a day
15:40 kados rach ... lood at the topic
15:40 kados look even
15:40 rach Right - 3 is the audience question
15:40 rach and yes I think we've probably covered it
15:40 kados ok ... so backups?
15:40 kados mirroring?
15:40 kados what exactly do we mean by backups?
15:40 shaun ah that answered my question?
15:40 kados ( I didn't write that question )
15:40 indradg btw, which version of MySQL is going to get used with OpenCMS?
15:41 rach we mirror the server
15:41 kados ok ... so that should take care of the backups already right?
15:41 kados moving along:
15:41 kados Interface Design
15:41 rach and at the moment have a backup because we're using kea as well
15:41 kados Rach (and Bob's) stripped down templates
15:41 slef kados: as in, let's say NZ or whereever it's hosting is hit by an iceberg and sinks. Do we have to rewrite ;-)
15:41 kados I don't have a link
15:42 rach which is on a sepereate server
15:42 kados slef: in that even I suspect rewriting will be the least of our worries ;-)
15:42 hdl maybe could be backedup on ??? I would have to talk with paul
15:42 kados s/even/event/
15:42 hdl sorry...
15:42 kados I'd be willing to host a mirror as well
15:42 hdl already done.
15:43 kados Rach (and Bob's) stripped down templates
15:43 kados i dont' have a link
15:43 kados rach: can you show us these?
15:43 kados (in their current form)
15:43 rach I can - but i'll need to msg you individually
15:43 rach it'll take you behind the sceens of the rangitikei library, and I don't want everyone able to get in
15:44 kados right
15:44 rach oh actually =
15:44 rach the opac has been done I think, which gives the genearl idea
15:45 kados yikes ... that's a little _too_ liquid IMO
15:45 kados search on 'test' to see what I mean
15:45 russ what do you mean by liquid?
15:45 rach think the difference between a wiki, and a webpage
15:45 rach ah bad data - search on fish
15:46 kados russ: the content controls the width of the columns
15:46 owen Yeah, that 'Diacritic Test record' is a killer!
15:46 slef kados: web is not print.
15:47 rach back to backups/redundancy - we should (appendages crossed) have a server in san fran going in the next month, and we'll be planning to have a copy of on that as an anycast
15:47 rach focus people
15:47 rach the point being, no colour
15:47 rach little design
15:47 rach all "functional" is the best word I can come up with
15:48 rach these aren't necessarily the finished templates, we're still working on them
15:48 rach but there intention is to be "working wireframes"
15:49 rach if you guys hate the idea, that's cool, we can just use them for ourselves :-)
15:49 kados i don't hate the b/w idea
15:49 kados I actually really like it
15:49 owen My concern is that there's still too much presentation in those templates
15:50 owen div ids, classes, etc.
15:50 kados well ... it may depend on what they're for
15:50 slef seems to work OK in lynx, although search results page isn't valid xhtml
15:50 rach we are a bit lazy so we have probably not cleaned out the code as much as we would have if we'd writen them from scratch
15:50 owen Those things don't matter to a programmer, because they control appearance
15:50 kados are these 'programmer templates' or 'client first view templates'?
15:50 rach we would use them as both to be realistic
15:50 kados hmmm ... that's where I worry about them
15:51 rach so we put in new functionality/the mods the client needs so that they can see them
15:51 kados for the reasons owen cited
15:51 rach before we do the graphic design
15:52 shaun kados: is there anything on the agenda for reskinning?
15:52 rach but I suspect the extra code in there at the moment comes under that "lazy/hurry" category
15:52 kados shaun: I don't know what you mean by that
15:53 shaun we were talking a while ago about CSS enhancements to NPL - make it a little more attractive and use it as the default (non-programmer) template set
15:53 kados owen do you have any examples of what a programmer template would look like in your scheme?
15:53 kados shaun: just a sec
15:53 kados russ: sounds good ... look forward to it
15:53 owen I worked up a couple examples very hurredly this afternoon.  Let me find the urls
15:53 rach cool owen
15:54 owen Let me preface by stating what my conception for these is:  I wanted to have something that was completely  minimal, so that programmers could use them to work on developing new features
15:55 owen And so that template writers could very easily see what changed in functionality without having to sift through presentation
15:55 rach as long as it's something that the clients can look at so that they can check that the new functionality does what they asked :-)
15:55 rach that might be a bit of a mindset/work style difference
15:55 owen Sorry, rach--this isn't for clients!
15:55 owen This is for programmers and template-writers
15:55 rach is that when we do new functionality, we have to show it to the clients
15:55 rach because we;re doing it for someone
15:56 rach that's the "service company" difference maybe
15:56 kados rach right ... but you're also working with a programmer who is not coding the html right?
15:56 rach yep
15:56 kados so that's where owen's idea may just speed up the communication between the two
15:56 kados because every programmer will be able to add this stuff to a template
15:57 owen Here's my simple example, just to show just how minimal I mean: (not a real Koha page, just the html example)
15:57 kados then your template designer can easily see what it is and can work on a design proto for a client
15:57 owen And...
15:58 owen Template: and
15:58 shaun i know where you live :D
15:58 rach Ok - I think it needs to be enough that someone testing it can actually use the site - so someone testing for the programmer, you don't want to have to have everything put into a new set of templates before you can verify something works
15:58 rach so you need some basic navigation
15:59 owen The problem with that is that my idea of basic navigation is different from others
15:59 rach and enough presentation that you can "read" the page - so for me the results could probably go lines in the table
15:59 rach and the heading should be a heading
16:00 rach but generally yep owen, I'm not adverse to what you've got there
16:00 owen My thought was that navigation and other links were template-writer decisions, and that what should remain is only what is relevant to the task of that particular page--whatever functionality is being driven by the perl script itself
16:00 rach but it is too hard to test if you have nothing
16:01 kados rach I think the main difference here is that you're used to having to explain functions visually to clients and owen is frustrated with having to wade through tons of extra html just to fine a few minor features
16:01 rach sure - I like his html :-)
16:01 owen So here's the real question (and not all the right people are here to answer it): Is this enough for a programmer to test with?
16:01 rach but I think they have more than just the programmer audience on reflection, I think you need someone else to test your work
16:02 rach I know for example, that I test for chris
16:02 kados rach: well ... when I concieved the 'programmer templates' I was thinking about two groups: programmers and interface designers
16:02 rach and that's not enough for me
16:02 rach to do that
16:02 rach with confidence
16:03 kados I guess I didn't realize that we'd have a third group: testers
16:03 rach I would be constantly asking him for URLS
16:03 rach which would be a pain in the arse
16:03 rach frankly
16:03 chris darn tootin
16:03 chris hehe
16:03 kados so the question is: where do the testers start looking at stuff?
16:03 kados before or after the template designers get ahold of it?
16:03 rach I think you want them to look as the functionality is going in
16:03 chris usually if my script doesnt internal server error
16:03 rach like I've been doing with genji
16:03 chris then i pass it on to ppl to test
16:04 chris (well i check it a bit more than that)
16:04 kados (heh)
16:04 chris but thats the general idea, if im confident its returning the results i think it should be, i get someone else to check
16:05 kados right
16:05 rach but I think the way we work, is different to how you'd work in a library
16:05 kados yep
16:05 rach so how you and owen work at npl is completely different, to how we work
16:05 kados yep
16:05 rach because you're both the developers and the client in a practical sense
16:05 rach so you can be much more self contained
16:06 kados well ... we weren't even really thinkin from the 'client' perspective here
16:06 kados just from the programmer -> template design
16:06 kados that transition is very tenuous currently
16:06 owen Here's the question on the table: will it make it simpler for template-writers to update their custom templates if they have a programmer template to refer to
16:06 chris the problem is
16:06 chris in our work
16:06 chris its goes template->programming
16:07 chris ie rach draws pictures, bob makes some html
16:07 chris and i freak out trying to make it work
16:07 kados hehe
16:07 chris :-)
16:07 rach :-)
16:07 shaun heh
16:07 rach to be fair, bob's been known to freak out too :-)
16:07 chris :)
16:07 shaun sorry, i'm being kicked off, i have exams tomorrow, night all
16:07 rach good luck
16:08 kados nite shaun
16:08 chris cya shaun
16:08 shaun thanks rach
16:08 shaun cya
16:08 kados ok ... well here's the prob
16:08 kados currently we only have one alternate template in Koha
16:08 kados NPL
16:08 kados and the default one's a mess
16:09 kados I think that's because it's too darn hard to maintain a templating system
16:09 rach yep
16:09 kados so maybe we should leave the internal design processes alone
16:09 kados katipo can have their template-programmer design process
16:09 kados but when it comes to committing stuff
16:09 kados you commit using a minimal programmer tempate
16:09 kados (and you maintain your own templates for your clients)
16:10 chris yep
16:10 kados and everyong agrees to play fair
16:10 chris as long as we have one default set for ppl to use that works
16:10 kados and commit to the programmer templates as well as their own templates
16:10 slef alternatively, maybe this isn't the right template system for koha
16:10 kados right ... and the interface designer's job is to maintain a working default tempalte
16:10 kados slef: explain
16:10 rach what I was thinking - was to give owen our templates, and he could further emasculate them if that's helpful - just so they are underway
16:11 slef kados: there are various alternative ways of templating, all the way up to xslt, or there are even other ways to use HTML::Template
16:12 kados hehe
16:12 rach mmm possibly :-)
16:12 slef People maintain dozens of skins for some web applications, but we can't keep >2 working koha ones in the distribution? What's the blocker?
16:12 rach but I was aiming at "reduce
16:13 chris ownership
16:13 kados slef: I think it's the problem of bloat in the default templates
16:13 owen slef: maybe it depends on what you mean by 'skin'
16:13 owen Some web apps just mean 'color change'
16:13 kados we also dont' have too many designers in our community
16:13 kados design teams I mean
16:14 slef do we have >2?
16:15 kados I think so ...
16:15 rach we might now have 3
16:15 kados paul ... katipo ... npl ... liblime
16:15 kados 4 ;-)
16:15 rach and shaun?
16:15 kados yep ...
16:15 kados so 5 then
16:16 kados 5 skins would be really sweet for 2.4
16:16 owen But only two who have committed anything so far
16:16 kados right ... liblime's templates are unmanagable at this point
16:16 rach and I think the "focus" of the various teams is a bit different - so if we all did one, you'd get 5 somewhat different libraries I susepct?
16:16 thd- I have also been working on some changes to templates.
16:16 kados so six then ;-)
16:16 rach so too many cooks perhaps is the problem
16:16 slef thd-: what do you find the most awkward part of making templates?
16:17 kados I think there are plenty of examples of projects with lots of skins that look quite different
16:17 kados mambo, squirrelmail, ...
16:17 thd- slef: The values to enter into the templates require changes in the program itself
16:17 kados the key is keeping the changes managable
16:18 rach so thd you're wanting to change bits of function?
16:19 thd- rach: yes, which requires changes in templates and the program code
16:19 slef thd-: not enough data available to templates, or preformatted data, or what?
16:19 thd- slef: the proper variables have to be available to the templates
16:20 thd- slef: additional variables
16:21 owen Okay, so here's a good example.  thd makes a change to a script, and adds the new variable to his custom set of templates
16:21 owen How does it get into the default template?
16:21 owen How does it get into the other custom templates?
16:22 chris it wont unless he tells someone
16:22 thd- :)
16:22 rach how do we decide wether it's something that should be in the default/other templates
16:23 kados heh
16:23 rach that's what the release manager decides
16:23 slef Do we have a template dictionary?
16:23 rach at the moment I think
16:23 kados right ... that's my job
16:23 kados right now he can commit it to HEAD
16:23 kados because I've specified that anything goes in HEAD atm
16:23 owen I'm suggesting that when someone makes a change to a script, and adds a variable, for instance, they change the programmer template (and their own custom template if applicable)
16:23 slef That is, a list of which scripts offer which variables to which templates?
16:23 owen Then other template writers can monitor the programmer template for changes, and update their own templates
16:23 kados that's the key
16:24 kados IMO
16:24 kados if everyone agrees to play nice and commit their new features to a minimal programmer template
16:24 kados then maintaining templates becomes a snap
16:24 chris or even just tell ppl (the koha-devel list) what you did and why
16:25 owen The programmer template could expose ALL variables returned by the script, so that template-writers could pick and choose what to display
16:25 rach sounds like a reasonable plan
16:25 hdl But that means that you will have always TWO templates at least to maintain... if I understand ?
16:25 thd- where is the magical programmer template?
16:25 kados yea ... but the programmer one is really easy
16:25 rach in production at the moment :-)
16:26 owen hdl--only if you're maintaining your own custom template
16:26 kados right ... the other side of this is that if I'm developing something
16:26 chris we only have about 12 to maintain
16:26 chris :)
16:26 kados I can just commit all my changes and do my testing on the programmer template
16:26 hdl But french, spanish, and ohters...
16:27 slef chris: no shared code?
16:27 chris clients are funny, you find they often want their site to look like their site :)
16:28 hdl Why programer's template shouldn't be custom template ready ???
16:28 chris to be fair, its only an issue when we upgrade someone
16:28 thd- chris: as they should be expected to even if their site is not optimal
16:28 chris yep
16:29 chris but i think, if there is one place where you can track the changes to templates (the minimal/programmer ones)
16:29 chris it will make changing all our custom ones much easier
16:30 rach hdl - what do you mean by "custom template ready"?
16:30 chris html::template is great cos it gives you lots of freedom, conversely html::template sucks because it gives you lots of freedom :)
16:30 rach do you mean with CSS/style tags etc in it so you could just apply a style if you wanted to?
16:30 hdl rach like having div and blocks and so on... prepared..
16:31 hdl And with a good CSS...
16:31 owen That's what the default template should aspire to be
16:31 rach yes - that was the middle ground we were half aiming for
16:32 rach kind of a blank canvas waiting to be painted :-)
16:32 rach but really we were being lazy and not taking all the tags out I suspect
16:33 rach so I think we might be saying, we need a new default template as well?
16:33 thd- Another issue I have with existing templates is lack of cross-browser compatibility
16:33 rach it is bad
16:33 kados so we need to:
16:33 kados create some programmer templates
16:33 kados start working on design for default templates
16:34 kados come up with a policy for programmers to commit new features to programmer templates and not to default templates
16:35 rach so maybe our ones are more the default template?
16:35 owen There's no reason the default template can't look good
16:36 owen It's just that it's important for the presentation to be separated into CSS as much as possible
16:36 owen That's what makes it custom template ready
16:37 thd- owen: without using css in such a way that it breaks for nonstandard browsers
16:37 rach except that perhaps the fact that we're even having this conversation means we have different definitions of "looks good" :-)
16:37 owen rach, I don't think so at all
16:38 rach really?
16:39 owen I think the goals you have for your minimal template are just different from the goals I have for the programmer template
16:39 owen We're talking about different things
16:39 kados so here's how I envision katipo's workflow with owen's scheme
16:39 kados 1. design templates/features
16:39 kados 2. code html
16:40 kados 3. chris madly gets it to work
16:40 kados 4. client approves it
16:40 slef owen's is a testing tool, rach's is a blank canvas waiting to be painted?
16:40 kados 5. chris commits katipo templates to cvs
16:40 rach well we test then paint :-)
16:40 kados 6. chris commits minimal templates to cvs
16:40 chris we dont really have katipo templates
16:40 chris but i can do the minimal bit
16:40 kados right ...
16:41 chris we could have a go
16:41 chris we end up with a template set per client
16:41 kados right ...
16:41 rach we have done templates for various things - shows etc, but they are usually not complete
16:41 kados don't you find that hard to maintain?
16:41 kados there's a lot of duplication of work here
16:41 chris yes and no
16:41 kados I'm going to have the same prob as I gain clients
16:41 chris if they all wanted, colours styles changed
16:42 chris we could do it with one set and css
16:42 kados ideal scenerio
16:42 chris but they go .. oh hey, lets put this thing over here
16:42 rach we tend to have one set of intranet templates
16:42 rach but not opac
16:42 rach but even intranet, we start out the same, but they change
16:42 kados 7. owen integrates changes into default templates
16:42 chris yeah, intranet is generally the same for everyone .. but different colours
16:42 kados (forgot that step ;-))
16:42 kados right
16:43 rach which is why we're keen on something that we can start working with them from
16:43 kados so rach ... I think the point is that it'll be easier for katipo to commit cheir changes to the main koha cvs
16:44 kados and it won't affect your internal workflow
16:44 kados it just adds one extra step for chris
16:44 kados the sharing bit
16:44 kados and that makes it easier for the ID to maintain the official templates
16:44 rach so you're thinking we should comit our templates?
16:45 kados well ... that's a seperate issue really
16:45 kados I think it'd be great if you could commit all your client tempaltes
16:45 kados (OPAC at least)
16:45 rach genearlly we can't
16:45 kados so we could really show the variety of options available
16:45 chris im not sure how useful that would be
16:45 rach[…]koha/
16:45 rach for example
16:45 chris they end up very very client specific
16:45 rach it's all their stuff, we can't comit it
16:46 chris[…]ha/
16:46 kados gotcha
16:47 chris but we could do our tidied up intranet templates
16:47 chris when we finish them
16:47 rach we can comit a plain version, and our intranet ones though
16:47 kados sweet
16:47 chris and i dont mind doing the change to the minimal templates
16:47 kados well like I said that's a separate issue really
16:47 kados cool
16:47 kados so does everyone agree about the minimal tempaltes?
16:47 kados does anyone disagree?
16:47 kados :-)
16:48 rach does everyone give up so they can go to bed :-)
16:48 kados hehe
16:48 kados right ...
16:48 thd- I missed the formal definition of minimal templates
16:48 kados ok ... I guess we've covered everything
16:48 slef I like minimal, but wait to see how it evolves.
16:48 kados thd-: it's in the log ;-)
16:48 rach yep I think so slef
16:48 kados agreed
16:48 kados so ... meeting over then eh?
16:49 rach yep
16:49 chris it will only work if everyone plays nice
16:49 thd- I coud not read the log fast enough :)
16:49 chris but then, so does most everything
16:49 kados chris: right ... that's key
16:51 thd- Even paul-away is away?
16:52 rach I think so - he's not on hte list
16:54 thd- chris: aside from the most obvious the guidelines need to be clear for how to play nice with templates
16:55 rach cheers
16:56 hdl thx.
16:59 slef thanks all
17:02 rach cheers slef
18:21 ryanbisd Im thinking about switching our library systems over to Koha...
18:21 ryanbisd but I need to find out some answers..
18:21 ryanbisd maybe you guys can help
18:23 rach we can try
18:23 rach and I'm non technical
18:23 rach but I'll help if I can
18:23 ryanbisd thanks... haha..
18:24 ryanbisd Have you heard of the Follet library system?
18:24 ryanbisd used mainly in schools
18:24 rach nope
18:24 ryanbisd we use that.. and already have our users and barcodes generated
18:24 rach so you're a school?
18:24 ryanbisd can I import those into this?
18:24 rach yes
18:24 rach with a little qualification
18:25 rach what are your tech skills?
18:25 ryanbisd I mean, I have some linux ecperience..
18:25 ryanbisd we have a DB guy..
18:25 ryanbisd he would probably be doing the actual conversions.
18:26 rach if you can get the data out of your current system in some sensible fashion
18:26 rach ie tab delimited or similar
18:26 rach then you can import it into koha/mysql
18:26 rach it's usually getting it out of your current system that is the problem, not getting it into koha
18:26 ryanbisd haha, right.
18:26 ryanbisd Im not sure how the old system works
18:26 ryanbisd Im just now heading up the project
18:27 ryanbisd but Koah looks pretty robust
18:29 rach koha still tends to need some skilled help to get it all working nicely - because it's still developing pretty rapidly
18:29 rach so having a db guy is good :-)
18:29 rach and being able to get onto IRC is good :-)
18:30 rach are you in the USA?
18:30 rach or northern hemisphere anyway?
18:30 ryanbisd Yeah....
18:30 ryanbisd Im close to Dallas
18:30 ryanbisd you?
18:31 rach Wellington New Zealand
18:31 ryanbisd awesome...
18:31 ryanbisd let me ask you this...  is the admin side of it GUI, or commandline?
18:31 ryanbisd or both?
18:31 rach so you might want to come on a bit earlier - and you'll catch folks from the north
18:31 rach gui
18:32 rach web interface
18:32 ryanbisd yeah..... I got put on this project today.... toward the end of the day
18:32 rach you're right on the ball then :-)
18:32 ryanbisd im at home now just checking it out
18:32 ryanbisd its probably going to save the district about 100k
18:32 rach cool
18:33 rach NPL reckon they save about 10K a year
18:33 ryanbisd ?
18:33 rach as well, which adds up
18:33 ryanbisd NPL?
18:33 rach um, public library in ohio
18:33 ryanbisd ahh..
18:33 ryanbisd cool.
18:33 ryanbisd well, the other thing is.. something called SIF
18:33 rach you might need to go into a bit more detail on that
18:34 rach what is it?
18:34 rach what sort of files do you send?
18:34 ryanbisd basically, we are mandated by the state....
18:34 ryanbisd it.. basically links all our DBs together..
18:34 ryanbisd so when a student is enrolled, his userid is sent to the library, and the attendance and so on...
18:35 ryanbisd keeps everything automated... Im just wondering if I can corelate this with that..
18:35 rach do you know what it really is? like is it xml, or something entirely different?
18:35 ryanbisd I have no idea to tell you the truth..
18:35 ryanbisd I will be finding out more about it in the next few days.
18:36 ryanbisd
18:38 chris hi ryan
18:38 ryanbisd hello... whats up?
18:39 kados ryanbisd: hi there
18:39 chris just in regards to SIF
18:39 kados ryanbisd: welcome to Koha
18:39 ryanbisd Thanks you..
18:39 ryanbisd I mean, Thank you... (singular)
18:39 chris we are working on getting NCIP (which is pretty much the same thing) into koha for version 2.4
18:39 chris thats right isnt it kados?
18:39 ryanbisd is there anyway to have it run with sif?
18:39 kados hmmm ...
18:40 kados I think you're thinking of SIP
18:40 kados and SIP2
18:40 kados SIF is different
18:40 ryanbisd If not, then I dont know if we can use it.
18:40 chris ahh
18:40 chris duh me
18:40 kados ryanbisd: so here's how this works
18:40 kados if the feature doesn't exist
18:40 kados you can sponser it
18:40 ryanbisd hahaha...
18:40 kados and still save money compared to your license fees
18:40 kados no joke
18:41 kados that's what NPL did
18:41 ryanbisd right...
18:41 kados and we've got several programmers here
18:41 kados who'd love to be working on Koha
18:41 ryanbisd Well, I just started looking into this project today.
18:41 kados if they had sponsership
18:41 chris oh yeah, SIF doesnt look to tricky
18:41 kados but they need to go elsewhere to eat
18:41 ryanbisd right!
18:41 ryanbisd I really like what Koha has to offer.
18:41 kados ryanbisd: it's quite mature for an open-source ILS
18:42 chris its just xml :)
18:42 ryanbisd do you know if its compatable with Follet?
18:42 kados compatable?
18:42 kados as in 'can we migrate from follett to koha'?
18:42 ryanbisd yeah
18:42 kados if so ... the answer is yes
18:42 chris with a dtd .. so id imagine a routine to export/import from it wouldnt be too hard
18:42 ryanbisd awesome.
18:42 chris thanks to XML::Simple :)
18:43 ryanbisd so... just so i can tell the bossman...
18:43 kados and if you need help with development, migration, staff training, ongoing maintenance ...
18:43 ryanbisd what are we looking at for sponsorship?
18:43 ryanbisd just a ballpark
18:43 kados you can hire katipo or liblime to do it all for you
18:43 kados hmmm ...
18:43 ryanbisd I have 2 other people I work with, that are pretty experienced... I am the least experienced...
18:44 ryanbisd I wanna do a lot of it, to learn..
18:44 kados experienced ... programmers? librarians?
18:44 ryanbisd programmers
18:44 ryanbisd DB guys
18:44 kados perl?
18:44 chris theres also the option too, that you write the SIF parser and contribute that to koha
18:44 kados right ... that's be another way to go if you've got support staff already
18:44 ryanbisd see, that might be the route...
18:44 chris with help
18:44 kados (which it sounds liek you do)
18:44 ryanbisd contribute to the cause
18:45 kados yep
18:45 chris im always up for a flight overseas :)
18:45 chris *grin*
18:45 kados heh
18:45 ryanbisd hahahah..
18:45 chris ok i have a meeting
18:45 ryanbisd are you guys on here most of the day?
18:45 chris nice to meet you
18:45 ryanbisd you too
18:45 kados ryanbisd: yep
18:45 ryanbisd what time is it where you guys are?
18:45 kados it's 19:45 for me
18:45 kados I'm in Ohio
18:46 ryanbisd oh, ok... cool
18:46 ryanbisd Im in Dallas
18:46 kados Chris's in NZ ... prolly still morning there
18:46 kados (tomorrow morning ;-))
18:46 ryanbisd I will bw talking to you guys more for sure..
18:46 ryanbisd do you know if follet has its own DB that is easily accessable?
18:47 kados not sure ... I'd have to ask my migration specialist
18:47 kados :-)
18:47 ryanbisd gotcha...
18:50 thd kados: MARC import with no ISBNs is broken
18:50 kados thd: yep ... you've posted about that like 5 times ;-)
18:50 thd sorry,
18:50 kados thd: it's not broken in stable though
18:51 thd kados: stable is 2.2.3?
18:51 kados thd: yep
18:51 thd kados: it is broken for me in a new 2.2.3 install
18:52 kados thd: hmmm ...
18:52 ryanbisd see ya guys.. thanks for the info!!!  I will be talking to you tomorrow!
18:52 kados thd: well I haven't installed 2.2.3 yet so I can't confirm or deny that
18:52 kados thd: any error messages?
18:52 kados thd: in the logs?
18:53 thd kados: none that I remember, will check now though
19:00 thd kados: will be back  in a few minutes with a confirmed answer. my x-windows session is thrahing : \
19:11 indradg its 5:50 AM and I forgot to sleep
19:49 thd kados: As I had remembered, no error message in the error log for MARC import failure when no ISBN is present using 2.2.3 stable.
19:52 thd kados: sorry I had pestered about this but I was under time pressure to demonstrate something when no I could not get z39.50 running on OSX there was then no way for me to demonstrate import for older works in a collection.
19:55 thd kados: Of course this needs to be fixed before anyone can get their older records from Follet or wherever else into Koha.
20:04 kados thd: of course ... but I don't remember any major commits to 2.2.3 that would break import
20:04 kados and I've got a 2.2.2 install that importing works fine on
20:04 kados I'll have to investigate this further
20:05 thd kados: I discovered the problem in 2.2.2b
20:08 thd kados: what version is your 2.2.2 install? The about koha link will not report the b in 2.2.2b.
02:01 osmoze hello
04:54 chris evening ryan
08:09 Ryanbisd Mornin guys
08:31 sylvain hi all
10:10 owen Hi Ryanbisd
10:11 Ryanbisd hola
11:40 Ryanbisd kados: you there?
11:50 kados Ryanbisd: yea ... but I'm kinda busy

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