Time Nick Message 11:50 kados Ryanbisd: yea ... but I'm kinda busy 11:40 Ryanbisd kados: you there? 10:11 Ryanbisd hola 10:10 owen Hi Ryanbisd 08:31 sylvain hi all 08:09 Ryanbisd Mornin guys 04:54 chris evening ryan 02:01 osmoze hello 20:08 thd kados: what version is your 2.2.2 install? The about koha link will not report the b in 2.2.2b. 20:05 thd kados: I discovered the problem in 2.2.2b 20:04 kados I'll have to investigate this further 20:04 kados and I've got a 2.2.2 install that importing works fine on 20:04 kados thd: of course ... but I don't remember any major commits to 2.2.3 that would break import 19:55 thd kados: Of course this needs to be fixed before anyone can get their older records from Follet or wherever else into Koha. 19:52 thd kados: sorry I had pestered about this but I was under time pressure to demonstrate something when no I could not get z39.50 running on OSX there was then no way for me to demonstrate import for older works in a collection. 19:49 thd kados: As I had remembered, no error message in the error log for MARC import failure when no ISBN is present using 2.2.3 stable. 19:11 indradg its 5:50 AM and I forgot to sleep 19:00 thd kados: will be back in a few minutes with a confirmed answer. my x-windows session is thrahing : \ 18:53 thd kados: none that I remember, will check now though 18:52 kados thd: in the logs? 18:52 kados thd: any error messages? 18:52 kados thd: well I haven't installed 2.2.3 yet so I can't confirm or deny that 18:52 ryanbisd see ya guys.. thanks for the info!!! I will be talking to you tomorrow! 18:52 kados thd: hmmm ... 18:51 thd kados: it is broken for me in a new 2.2.3 install 18:51 kados thd: yep 18:51 thd kados: stable is 2.2.3? 18:50 kados thd: it's not broken in stable though 18:50 thd sorry, 18:50 kados thd: yep ... you've posted about that like 5 times ;-) 18:50 thd kados: MARC import with no ISBNs is broken 18:47 ryanbisd gotcha... 18:47 kados :-) 18:47 kados not sure ... I'd have to ask my migration specialist 18:46 ryanbisd do you know if follet has its own DB that is easily accessable? 18:46 ryanbisd I will bw talking to you guys more for sure.. 18:46 kados (tomorrow morning ;-)) 18:46 kados Chris's in NZ ... prolly still morning there 18:46 ryanbisd Im in Dallas 18:46 ryanbisd oh, ok... cool 18:45 kados I'm in Ohio 18:45 kados it's 19:45 for me 18:45 ryanbisd what time is it where you guys are? 18:45 kados ryanbisd: yep 18:45 ryanbisd you too 18:45 chris nice to meet you 18:45 ryanbisd are you guys on here most of the day? 18:45 chris ok i have a meeting 18:45 ryanbisd hahahah.. 18:45 kados heh 18:45 chris *grin* 18:45 chris im always up for a flight overseas :) 18:45 kados yep 18:44 ryanbisd contribute to the cause 18:44 kados (which it sounds liek you do) 18:44 chris with help 18:44 ryanbisd see, that might be the route... 18:44 kados right ... that's be another way to go if you've got support staff already 18:44 chris theres also the option too, that you write the SIF parser and contribute that to koha 18:44 kados perl? 18:44 ryanbisd DB guys 18:44 ryanbisd programmers 18:44 kados experienced ... programmers? librarians? 18:44 ryanbisd I wanna do a lot of it, to learn.. 18:43 ryanbisd I have 2 other people I work with, that are pretty experienced... I am the least experienced... 18:43 kados hmmm ... 18:43 kados you can hire katipo or liblime to do it all for you 18:43 ryanbisd just a ballpark 18:43 ryanbisd what are we looking at for sponsorship? 18:43 kados and if you need help with development, migration, staff training, ongoing maintenance ... 18:43 ryanbisd so... just so i can tell the bossman... 18:42 chris thanks to XML::Simple :) 18:42 ryanbisd awesome. 18:42 chris with a dtd .. so id imagine a routine to export/import from it wouldnt be too hard 18:42 kados if so ... the answer is yes 18:42 ryanbisd yeah 18:42 kados as in 'can we migrate from follett to koha'? 18:42 kados compatable? 18:42 ryanbisd do you know if its compatable with Follet? 18:42 chris its just xml :) 18:41 kados ryanbisd: it's quite mature for an open-source ILS 18:41 ryanbisd I really like what Koha has to offer. 18:41 ryanbisd right! 18:41 kados but they need to go elsewhere to eat 18:41 chris oh yeah, SIF doesnt look to tricky 18:41 kados if they had sponsership 18:41 ryanbisd Well, I just started looking into this project today. 18:41 kados who'd love to be working on Koha 18:41 kados and we've got several programmers here 18:41 ryanbisd right... 18:41 kados that's what NPL did 18:40 kados no joke 18:40 kados and still save money compared to your license fees 18:40 ryanbisd hahaha... 18:40 kados you can sponser it 18:40 kados if the feature doesn't exist 18:40 kados ryanbisd: so here's how this works 18:40 chris duh me 18:40 chris ahh 18:40 ryanbisd If not, then I dont know if we can use it. 18:40 kados SIF is different 18:40 kados and SIP2 18:40 kados I think you're thinking of SIP 18:39 kados hmmm ... 18:39 ryanbisd is there anyway to have it run with sif? 18:39 chris thats right isnt it kados? 18:39 chris we are working on getting NCIP (which is pretty much the same thing) into koha for version 2.4 18:39 ryanbisd I mean, Thank you... (singular) 18:39 ryanbisd Thanks you.. 18:39 kados ryanbisd: welcome to Koha 18:39 chris just in regards to SIF 18:39 kados ryanbisd: hi there 18:38 ryanbisd hello... whats up? 18:38 chris hi ryan 18:36 ryanbisd http://www.mlasolutions.com/products/sifagent.htm 18:35 ryanbisd I will be finding out more about it in the next few days. 18:35 ryanbisd I have no idea to tell you the truth.. 18:35 rach do you know what it really is? like is it xml, or something entirely different? 18:35 ryanbisd keeps everything automated... Im just wondering if I can corelate this with that.. 18:34 ryanbisd so when a student is enrolled, his userid is sent to the library, and the attendance and so on... 18:34 ryanbisd it.. basically links all our DBs together.. 18:34 ryanbisd basically, we are mandated by the state.... 18:34 rach what sort of files do you send? 18:34 rach what is it? 18:33 rach you might need to go into a bit more detail on that 18:33 ryanbisd well, the other thing is.. something called SIF 18:33 ryanbisd cool. 18:33 ryanbisd ahh.. 18:33 rach um, public library in ohio 18:33 ryanbisd NPL? 18:33 rach as well, which adds up 18:33 ryanbisd ? 18:33 rach NPL reckon they save about 10K a year 18:32 rach cool 18:32 ryanbisd its probably going to save the district about 100k 18:32 ryanbisd im at home now just checking it out 18:32 rach you're right on the ball then :-) 18:32 ryanbisd yeah..... I got put on this project today.... toward the end of the day 18:32 rach web interface 18:31 rach gui 18:31 rach so you might want to come on a bit earlier - and you'll catch folks from the north 18:31 ryanbisd or both? 18:31 ryanbisd let me ask you this... is the admin side of it GUI, or commandline? 18:31 ryanbisd awesome... 18:31 rach Wellington New Zealand 18:30 ryanbisd you? 18:30 ryanbisd Im close to Dallas 18:30 ryanbisd Yeah.... 18:30 rach or northern hemisphere anyway? 18:30 rach are you in the USA? 18:29 rach and being able to get onto IRC is good :-) 18:29 rach so having a db guy is good :-) 18:29 rach koha still tends to need some skilled help to get it all working nicely - because it's still developing pretty rapidly 18:27 ryanbisd but Koah looks pretty robust 18:26 ryanbisd Im just now heading up the project 18:26 ryanbisd Im not sure how the old system works 18:26 ryanbisd haha, right. 18:26 rach it's usually getting it out of your current system that is the problem, not getting it into koha 18:26 rach then you can import it into koha/mysql 18:26 rach ie tab delimited or similar 18:26 rach if you can get the data out of your current system in some sensible fashion 18:25 ryanbisd he would probably be doing the actual conversions. 18:25 ryanbisd we have a DB guy.. 18:25 ryanbisd I mean, I have some linux ecperience.. 18:25 rach what are your tech skills? 18:24 rach with a little qualification 18:24 rach yes 18:24 ryanbisd can I import those into this? 18:24 rach so you're a school? 18:24 ryanbisd we use that.. and already have our users and barcodes generated 18:24 rach nope 18:24 ryanbisd used mainly in schools 18:24 ryanbisd Have you heard of the Follet library system? 18:23 ryanbisd thanks... haha.. 18:23 rach but I'll help if I can 18:23 rach and I'm non technical 18:23 rach we can try 18:21 ryanbisd maybe you guys can help 18:21 ryanbisd but I need to find out some answers.. 18:21 ryanbisd Im thinking about switching our library systems over to Koha... 17:02 rach cheers slef 16:59 slef thanks all 16:56 hdl thx. 16:55 rach cheers 16:54 thd- chris: aside from the most obvious the guidelines need to be clear for how to play nice with templates 16:52 rach I think so - he's not on hte list 16:51 thd- Even paul-away is away? 16:49 kados chris: right ... that's key 16:49 chris but then, so does most everything 16:49 thd- I coud not read the log fast enough :) 16:49 chris it will only work if everyone plays nice 16:49 rach yep 16:48 kados so ... meeting over then eh? 16:48 kados agreed 16:48 rach yep I think so slef 16:48 kados thd-: it's in the log ;-) 16:48 slef I like minimal, but wait to see how it evolves. 16:48 kados ok ... I guess we've covered everything 16:48 thd- I missed the formal definition of minimal templates 16:48 kados right ... 16:48 kados hehe 16:48 rach does everyone give up so they can go to bed :-) 16:47 kados :-) 16:47 kados does anyone disagree? 16:47 kados so does everyone agree about the minimal tempaltes? 16:47 kados cool 16:47 kados well like I said that's a separate issue really 16:47 chris and i dont mind doing the change to the minimal templates 16:47 kados sweet 16:47 rach we can comit a plain version, and our intranet ones though 16:47 chris when we finish them 16:47 chris but we could do our tidied up intranet templates 16:46 kados gotcha 16:46 chris http://library.lgnz.co.nz/cgi-bin/koha/opac-search.pl 16:45 rach it's all their stuff, we can't comit it 16:45 chris they end up very very client specific 16:45 rach for example 16:45 rach http://opac.eeo.katipo.co.nz/cgi-bin/koha/opac-main.pl 16:45 chris im not sure how useful that would be 16:45 kados so we could really show the variety of options available 16:45 rach genearlly we can't 16:45 kados (OPAC at least) 16:45 kados I think it'd be great if you could commit all your client tempaltes 16:45 kados well ... that's a seperate issue really 16:44 rach so you're thinking we should comit our templates? 16:44 kados and that makes it easier for the ID to maintain the official templates 16:44 kados the sharing bit 16:44 kados it just adds one extra step for chris 16:44 kados and it won't affect your internal workflow 16:43 kados so rach ... I think the point is that it'll be easier for katipo to commit cheir changes to the main koha cvs 16:43 rach which is why we're keen on something that we can start working with them from 16:42 kados right 16:42 kados (forgot that step ;-)) 16:42 chris yeah, intranet is generally the same for everyone .. but different colours 16:42 kados 7. owen integrates changes into default templates 16:42 rach but even intranet, we start out the same, but they change 16:42 rach but not opac 16:42 rach we tend to have one set of intranet templates 16:42 chris but they go .. oh hey, lets put this thing over here 16:42 kados ideal scenerio 16:42 chris we could do it with one set and css 16:41 chris if they all wanted, colours styles changed 16:41 kados I'm going to have the same prob as I gain clients 16:41 chris yes and no 16:41 kados there's a lot of duplication of work here 16:41 kados don't you find that hard to maintain? 16:41 rach we have done templates for various things - shows etc, but they are usually not complete 16:41 kados right ... 16:41 chris we end up with a template set per client 16:41 chris we could have a go 16:40 kados right ... 16:40 chris but i can do the minimal bit 16:40 chris we dont really have katipo templates 16:40 kados 6. chris commits minimal templates to cvs 16:40 rach well we test then paint :-) 16:40 kados 5. chris commits katipo templates to cvs 16:40 slef owen's is a testing tool, rach's is a blank canvas waiting to be painted? 16:40 kados 4. client approves it 16:40 kados 3. chris madly gets it to work 16:39 kados 2. code html 16:39 kados 1. design templates/features 16:39 kados so here's how I envision katipo's workflow with owen's scheme 16:39 owen We're talking about different things 16:39 owen I think the goals you have for your minimal template are just different from the goals I have for the programmer template 16:38 rach really? 16:37 owen rach, I don't think so at all 16:37 rach except that perhaps the fact that we're even having this conversation means we have different definitions of "looks good" :-) 16:37 thd- owen: without using css in such a way that it breaks for nonstandard browsers 16:36 owen That's what makes it custom template ready 16:36 owen It's just that it's important for the presentation to be separated into CSS as much as possible 16:35 owen There's no reason the default template can't look good 16:35 rach so maybe our ones are more the default template? 16:34 kados come up with a policy for programmers to commit new features to programmer templates and not to default templates 16:33 kados start working on design for default templates 16:33 kados create some programmer templates 16:33 kados so we need to: 16:33 rach it is bad 16:33 thd- Another issue I have with existing templates is lack of cross-browser compatibility 16:33 rach so I think we might be saying, we need a new default template as well? 16:32 rach but really we were being lazy and not taking all the tags out I suspect 16:32 rach kind of a blank canvas waiting to be painted :-) 16:31 rach yes - that was the middle ground we were half aiming for 16:31 owen That's what the default template should aspire to be 16:31 hdl And with a good CSS... 16:30 hdl rach like having div and blocks and so on... prepared.. 16:30 rach do you mean with CSS/style tags etc in it so you could just apply a style if you wanted to? 16:30 chris html::template is great cos it gives you lots of freedom, conversely html::template sucks because it gives you lots of freedom :) 16:30 rach hdl - what do you mean by "custom template ready"? 16:29 chris it will make changing all our custom ones much easier 16:29 chris but i think, if there is one place where you can track the changes to templates (the minimal/programmer ones) 16:28 chris yep 16:28 thd- chris: as they should be expected to even if their site is not optimal 16:28 chris to be fair, its only an issue when we upgrade someone 16:28 hdl Why programer's template shouldn't be custom template ready ??? 16:27 chris clients are funny, you find they often want their site to look like their site :) 16:27 slef chris: no shared code? 16:26 hdl But french, spanish, and ohters... 16:26 kados I can just commit all my changes and do my testing on the programmer template 16:26 chris :) 16:26 chris we only have about 12 to maintain 16:26 kados right ... the other side of this is that if I'm developing something 16:26 owen hdl--only if you're maintaining your own custom template 16:25 rach in production at the moment :-) 16:25 kados yea ... but the programmer one is really easy 16:25 thd- where is the magical programmer template? 16:25 hdl But that means that you will have always TWO templates at least to maintain... if I understand ? 16:25 rach sounds like a reasonable plan 16:25 owen The programmer template could expose ALL variables returned by the script, so that template-writers could pick and choose what to display 16:24 chris or even just tell ppl (the koha-devel list) what you did and why 16:24 kados then maintaining templates becomes a snap 16:24 kados if everyone agrees to play nice and commit their new features to a minimal programmer template 16:24 kados IMO 16:23 kados that's the key 16:23 owen Then other template writers can monitor the programmer template for changes, and update their own templates 16:23 slef That is, a list of which scripts offer which variables to which templates? 16:23 owen I'm suggesting that when someone makes a change to a script, and adds a variable, for instance, they change the programmer template (and their own custom template if applicable) 16:23 kados because I've specified that anything goes in HEAD atm 16:23 kados right now he can commit it to HEAD 16:23 kados right ... that's my job 16:23 rach at the moment I think 16:23 slef Do we have a template dictionary? 16:23 rach that's what the release manager decides 16:23 kados heh 16:22 rach how do we decide wether it's something that should be in the default/other templates 16:22 thd- :) 16:22 chris it wont unless he tells someone 16:21 owen How does it get into the other custom templates? 16:21 owen How does it get into the default template? 16:21 owen Okay, so here's a good example. thd makes a change to a script, and adds the new variable to his custom set of templates 16:20 thd- slef: additional variables 16:19 thd- slef: the proper variables have to be available to the templates 16:19 slef thd-: not enough data available to templates, or preformatted data, or what? 16:19 thd- rach: yes, which requires changes in templates and the program code 16:18 rach so thd you're wanting to change bits of function? 16:17 kados the key is keeping the changes managable 16:17 thd- slef: The values to enter into the templates require changes in the program itself 16:17 kados mambo, squirrelmail, ... 16:17 kados I think there are plenty of examples of projects with lots of skins that look quite different 16:16 slef thd-: what do you find the most awkward part of making templates? 16:16 rach so too many cooks perhaps is the problem 16:16 kados so six then ;-) 16:16 thd- I have also been working on some changes to templates. 16:16 rach and I think the "focus" of the various teams is a bit different - so if we all did one, you'd get 5 somewhat different libraries I susepct? 16:16 kados right ... liblime's templates are unmanagable at this point 16:16 owen But only two who have committed anything so far 16:16 kados 5 skins would be really sweet for 2.4 16:15 kados so 5 then 16:15 kados yep ... 16:15 rach and shaun? 16:15 kados 4 ;-) 16:15 kados paul ... katipo ... npl ... liblime 16:15 rach we might now have 3 16:15 kados I think so ... 16:14 slef do we have >2? 16:13 kados design teams I mean 16:13 kados we also dont' have too many designers in our community 16:13 owen Some web apps just mean 'color change' 16:13 owen slef: maybe it depends on what you mean by 'skin' 16:13 kados slef: I think it's the problem of bloat in the default templates 16:13 chris ownership 16:12 rach but I was aiming at "reduce 16:12 slef People maintain dozens of skins for some web applications, but we can't keep >2 working koha ones in the distribution? What's the blocker? 16:12 rach mmm possibly :-) 16:12 kados hehe 16:11 slef kados: there are various alternative ways of templating, all the way up to xslt, or there are even other ways to use HTML::Template 16:10 rach what I was thinking - was to give owen our templates, and he could further emasculate them if that's helpful - just so they are underway 16:10 kados slef: explain 16:10 kados right ... and the interface designer's job is to maintain a working default tempalte 16:10 slef alternatively, maybe this isn't the right template system for koha 16:10 kados and commit to the programmer templates as well as their own templates 16:10 chris as long as we have one default set for ppl to use that works 16:10 kados and everyong agrees to play fair 16:10 chris yep 16:09 kados (and you maintain your own templates for your clients) 16:09 kados you commit using a minimal programmer tempate 16:09 kados but when it comes to committing stuff 16:09 kados katipo can have their template-programmer design process 16:09 kados so maybe we should leave the internal design processes alone 16:09 rach yep 16:09 kados I think that's because it's too darn hard to maintain a templating system 16:08 kados and the default one's a mess 16:08 kados NPL 16:08 kados currently we only have one alternate template in Koha 16:08 kados ok ... well here's the prob 16:08 shaun cya 16:08 shaun thanks rach 16:08 chris cya shaun 16:08 kados nite shaun 16:07 rach good luck 16:07 shaun sorry, i'm being kicked off, i have exams tomorrow, night all 16:07 chris :) 16:07 rach to be fair, bob's been known to freak out too :-) 16:07 shaun heh 16:07 rach :-) 16:07 chris :-) 16:07 kados hehe 16:07 chris and i freak out trying to make it work 16:07 chris ie rach draws pictures, bob makes some html 16:06 chris its goes template->programming 16:06 chris in our work 16:06 chris the problem is 16:06 owen Here's the question on the table: will it make it simpler for template-writers to update their custom templates if they have a programmer template to refer to 16:06 kados that transition is very tenuous currently 16:06 kados just from the programmer -> template design 16:06 kados well ... we weren't even really thinkin from the 'client' perspective here 16:05 rach so you can be much more self contained 16:05 rach because you're both the developers and the client in a practical sense 16:05 kados yep 16:05 rach so how you and owen work at npl is completely different, to how we work 16:05 kados yep 16:05 rach but I think the way we work, is different to how you'd work in a library 16:05 kados right 16:04 chris but thats the general idea, if im confident its returning the results i think it should be, i get someone else to check 16:04 kados (heh) 16:04 chris (well i check it a bit more than that) 16:03 chris then i pass it on to ppl to test 16:03 rach like I've been doing with genji 16:03 chris usually if my script doesnt internal server error 16:03 rach I think you want them to look as the functionality is going in 16:03 kados before or after the template designers get ahold of it? 16:03 kados so the question is: where do the testers start looking at stuff? 16:03 chris hehe 16:03 chris darn tootin 16:03 rach frankly 16:03 rach which would be a pain in the arse 16:03 rach I would be constantly asking him for URLS 16:03 kados I guess I didn't realize that we'd have a third group: testers 16:02 rach with confidence 16:02 rach to do that 16:02 rach and that's not enough for me 16:02 kados rach: well ... when I concieved the 'programmer templates' I was thinking about two groups: programmers and interface designers 16:02 rach I know for example, that I test for chris 16:01 rach but I think they have more than just the programmer audience on reflection, I think you need someone else to test your work 16:01 owen So here's the real question (and not all the right people are here to answer it): Is this enough for a programmer to test with? 16:01 rach sure - I like his html :-) 16:01 kados rach I think the main difference here is that you're used to having to explain functions visually to clients and owen is frustrated with having to wade through tons of extra html just to fine a few minor features 16:00 rach but it is too hard to test if you have nothing 16:00 owen My thought was that navigation and other links were template-writer decisions, and that what should remain is only what is relevant to the task of that particular page--whatever functionality is being driven by the perl script itself 16:00 rach but generally yep owen, I'm not adverse to what you've got there 15:59 rach and the heading should be a heading 15:59 rach and enough presentation that you can "read" the page - so for me the results could probably go lines in the table 15:59 owen The problem with that is that my idea of basic navigation is different from others 15:58 rach so you need some basic navigation 15:58 rach Ok - I think it needs to be enough that someone testing it can actually use the site - so someone testing for the programmer, you don't want to have to have everything put into a new set of templates before you can verify something works 15:58 shaun i know where you live :D 15:58 owen Template: http://66.213.78.40/temp/members-home.txt and http://66.213.78.40/temp/member.txt 15:57 owen And... http://66.213.78.40/temp/member.html 15:57 kados then your template designer can easily see what it is and can work on a design proto for a client 15:57 owen Here's my simple example, just to show just how minimal I mean: http://66.213.78.40/temp/members-home.html (not a real Koha page, just the html example) 15:56 kados because every programmer will be able to add this stuff to a template 15:56 kados so that's where owen's idea may just speed up the communication between the two 15:56 rach yep 15:56 kados rach right ... but you're also working with a programmer who is not coding the html right? 15:56 rach that's the "service company" difference maybe 15:55 rach because we;re doing it for someone 15:55 rach is that when we do new functionality, we have to show it to the clients 15:55 owen This is for programmers and template-writers 15:55 owen Sorry, rach--this isn't for clients! 15:55 rach that might be a bit of a mindset/work style difference 15:55 rach as long as it's something that the clients can look at so that they can check that the new functionality does what they asked :-) 15:55 owen And so that template writers could very easily see what changed in functionality without having to sift through presentation 15:54 owen Let me preface by stating what my conception for these is: I wanted to have something that was completely minimal, so that programmers could use them to work on developing new features 15:53 rach cool owen 15:53 owen I worked up a couple examples very hurredly this afternoon. Let me find the urls 15:53 kados russ: sounds good ... look forward to it 15:53 kados shaun: just a sec 15:53 kados owen do you have any examples of what a programmer template would look like in your scheme? 15:53 shaun we were talking a while ago about CSS enhancements to NPL - make it a little more attractive and use it as the default (non-programmer) template set 15:52 kados shaun: I don't know what you mean by that 15:52 rach but I suspect the extra code in there at the moment comes under that "lazy/hurry" category 15:52 shaun kados: is there anything on the agenda for reskinning? 15:51 rach before we do the graphic design 15:51 kados for the reasons owen cited 15:51 rach so we put in new functionality/the mods the client needs so that they can see them 15:50 kados hmmm ... that's where I worry about them 15:50 rach we would use them as both to be realistic 15:50 kados are these 'programmer templates' or 'client first view templates'? 15:50 owen Those things don't matter to a programmer, because they control appearance 15:50 rach we are a bit lazy so we have probably not cleaned out the code as much as we would have if we'd writen them from scratch 15:50 slef seems to work OK in lynx, although search results page isn't valid xhtml 15:50 kados well ... it may depend on what they're for 15:50 owen div ids, classes, etc. 15:49 owen My concern is that there's still too much presentation in those templates 15:49 kados I actually really like it 15:49 kados i don't hate the b/w idea 15:49 rach if you guys hate the idea, that's cool, we can just use them for ourselves :-) 15:48 rach but there intention is to be "working wireframes" 15:48 rach these aren't necessarily the finished templates, we're still working on them 15:47 rach all "functional" is the best word I can come up with 15:47 rach little design 15:47 rach the point being, no colour 15:47 rach focus people 15:47 rach back to backups/redundancy - we should (appendages crossed) have a server in san fran going in the next month, and we'll be planning to have a copy of koha.org on that as an anycast 15:46 slef kados: web is not print. 15:46 owen Yeah, that 'Diacritic Test record' is a killer! 15:46 kados russ: the content controls the width of the columns 15:45 rach ah bad data - search on fish 15:45 rach think the difference between a wiki, and a webpage 15:45 russ what do you mean by liquid? 15:45 kados search on 'test' to see what I mean 15:45 kados yikes ... that's a little _too_ liquid IMO 15:44 rach the opac has been done I think, which gives the genearl idea 15:44 rach oh actually = http://opac.rangitikei.katipo.co.nz/ 15:44 kados right 15:43 rach it'll take you behind the sceens of the rangitikei library, and I don't want everyone able to get in 15:43 rach I can - but i'll need to msg you individually 15:43 kados (in their current form) 15:43 kados rach: can you show us these? 15:43 kados i dont' have a link 15:43 kados Rach (and Bob's) stripped down templates 15:42 hdl already done. 15:42 kados I'd be willing to host a mirror as well 15:42 hdl sorry... 15:42 kados s/even/event/ 15:42 hdl maybe could be backedup on koha-fr.org ??? I would have to talk with paul 15:42 kados slef: in that even I suspect rewriting koha.org will be the least of our worries ;-) 15:42 rach which is on a sepereate server 15:41 kados I don't have a link 15:41 slef kados: as in, let's say NZ or whereever it's hosting is hit by an iceberg and sinks. Do we have to rewrite koha.org? ;-) 15:41 kados Rach (and Bob's) stripped down templates 15:41 rach and at the moment have a backup because we're using kea as well 15:41 kados Interface Design 15:41 kados moving along: 15:41 kados ok ... so that should take care of the backups already right? 15:41 rach we mirror the server 15:40 indradg btw, which version of MySQL is going to get used with OpenCMS? 15:40 kados ( I didn't write that question ) 15:40 shaun ah that answered my question? 15:40 kados what exactly do we mean by backups? 15:40 kados mirroring? 15:40 kados ok ... so backups? 15:40 rach and yes I think we've probably covered it 15:40 rach Right - 3 is the audience question 15:40 kados look even 15:40 kados rach ... lood at the topic 15:40 shaun i can do it, but only around an hour a day, up until 3 weeks time at about 7 hours a day 15:39 rach um where is the agenda? 15:39 russ so shaun - you cant do anything till when? 15:39 kados 4 Is there a site backup plan? 15:39 kados if 3 is covered then ... 15:39 shaun :D 15:38 kados heh 15:38 slef shaun: woo, culpability ;-) 15:38 rach :-) 15:38 kados rach: has it been covered? 15:38 shaun heh 15:38 shaun woo, responsibility 15:38 rach OK compliance- yes up to shaun 15:38 slef kados: I think that's been covered. 15:37 rach and everyone running around 15:37 shaun that's if i get round to it... i only told russ, i have exams for a while, but 3 weeks time i have my 2 month break and it should be polished and running within the first week 15:37 rach sorry - distraction, site just gone live with no warning, imagine one of those submarine scenes with red flashing lights 15:36 kados rach? 15:36 kados 3 Developers/Users or Programmers(+Translators)/Librarians/Users? 15:36 kados don't really understand #3 15:36 kados shaun: great 15:36 slef shaun++ 15:35 slef (yes) 15:35 slef russ: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG 15:35 shaun i will make it comply. 15:35 kados yep ... probably 15:35 rach but I suspect not being able to would be a blocker for opencms 15:35 russ WCAG is the accessibility guidelines? 15:35 rach yep - sorry client crisis happening as well 15:35 kados 2. Will the site conform to xhtml1/CSS2/WCAG? 15:35 kados moving along 15:34 kados ok ... let's look into that ... and we'll decide later on koha-devel 15:34 kados http://mamboforge.net/projects/mambelfish/ 15:34 kados Mambo does :-/ 15:33 hdl It is a concern for me... 15:33 russ we will have to look into it 15:33 russ no idea 15:33 kados so we'll do it in English ... then think about translations after the fact? ... does openCMS support multiple languages in the templating system? 15:33 hdl But hindou could also take part. 15:32 slef ok, exaggeration ;-) 15:32 hdl Login Pratique is a french revue... 15:32 slef rach: cxiuj parolistoj de aliaj lingvoj scias // all speakers of other languages know. 15:32 hdl i.e Login Pratique talked about koha. 15:32 hdl The pb is when french provides some links ;) 15:31 hdl And then french would translate. 15:31 hdl Maybe we could think that English would be the base, just like Koha dev 15:30 rach It would be fantastic for koha.org to be multilingual, but hdl do you know how much work that would be? 15:30 kados so we'll have to setup a translation method for the site and decide what languages to support 15:30 hdl It is a french official site for Koha. Both commercial and news... 15:30 slef kados: commercial, instead of what? 15:29 rach that will be up to paul et al 15:29 indradg i agree 15:29 hdl :P 15:29 kados right 15:29 hdl IMO : It is not only commerciial. 15:29 kados (even if it is .org ... erp) 15:29 kados IMO 15:28 kados shaun: not really the same thing at all 15:28 kados shaun: that's a commercial site 15:28 russ sorry that was an anwer to slef 15:28 shaun what will become of koha-fr.org then? 15:28 russ yep 15:28 slef Oh, by the way, will opencms be running on mysql and a free software java runtime? 15:28 kados I think yes 15:28 kados 1. Is the site to be multilingual? 15:28 kados ok ... moving along: 15:27 kados yep 15:27 rach and i suspect a regular nag on the koha list 15:27 rach On the getting people to contribute front, as slef has said, clear instructions/entreaties to people on how to send in news for the site 15:27 kados anything else about russ's design notes? 15:26 indradg russ, but a more prominent link perhaps would be grabbing more eyeballs 15:26 russ i think it would be easiest to maintain through some type of news engine 15:26 slef rach: mine damage walls 15:26 indradg russ, cud be 15:26 russ indrag - could that be a sub category of news? 15:25 indradg :P 15:25 rach they say a lot about your diet slef 15:25 kados hehe 15:25 slef why would anyone want photos of our thumbnails? 15:25 indradg rite 15:25 rach yep - if we know about it now we link it in 15:25 kados indradg: good point 15:24 indradg russ, abt more content... how abt a Media link -- all the press / media coverage that Koha gets globally? 15:24 kados thumbnail photos 15:24 kados folks are scared of open source and free software because it seems like anyone can control what code gets into the project 15:24 slef thumbs? 15:24 russ i dont have a problem 15:24 russ ok as long as it clear what it takes to get onto that page 15:24 kados exactly 15:24 kados rach: maybe even with thumbs etc. 15:24 rach yep - management basically 15:23 kados rach: make it look almost like a company bio page 15:23 kados rach: exactly 15:23 rach but not everyone on the mailing list :-) 15:23 russ but i didnt write that down 15:23 rach so we want enough people to show there are a good solid number of people involved 15:23 russ in this section and that the community pages we could do something 15:22 russ i was thinking that we could identify the prim contacts 15:22 slef If it's for new users, how will it support l10n? (l10n = localisation, 10 letters between l and n, but requires localisation itself!) 15:22 kados sure ... but those of us with a vested interest would gladly maintain the content ;-) 15:22 russ my only concern is that we start increasing the amount of content to be maintained 15:22 kados so it looks more like an organized methodical approach to software development 15:22 kados to lend credibility to the project's developers 15:21 kados maybe even brief bios 15:21 kados it's information about each of the key players 15:21 kados this isn't community pages 15:21 shaun how does that fit in with keeping product and community pages separate then? 15:21 indradg sounds good 15:21 kados ya 15:20 slef kados: but be less of a work of fiction, presumably? 15:20 rach yep 15:20 kados http://www.debian.org/intro/organization 15:20 kados so I'd like it to look kinda like Debian's "organization" page: 15:20 slef rach: clear? 15:19 kados yea ... that last one 15:19 slef rach: see russ's URL 15:19 rach or this - http://www.koha.org/about/people.html 15:19 russ under the content 15:19 russ http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz/kohawebredev/content/koha-team.html 15:19 russ no 15:19 rach do you men this - http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz/kohawebredev/projectteam.html 15:18 kados shaun: lends credibility to the code base 15:18 rach rather than everyone involved in koha 15:18 kados shaun: credentials of the key players 15:18 indradg pulls the Koha cart ;) 15:18 rach that project team are the "jobs" for making the site 15:18 shaun what purpose does Koha team serve? 15:18 kados to include all the key folks 15:18 kados also ... Koha team should be a bit expanded 15:18 russ my latest version of the site map - http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz/kohawebredev/sitemap.html 15:18 slef kados: the current map is linked from the tinyurl in the /topic ;-) 15:17 kados I thought there was a documentation section listed on the map the first time I looked at it 15:17 slef discussed what? kohadocs? 15:16 kados right ... sorry ... I missread the map 15:16 russ i think we discussed this last time 15:16 russ with an area for the community which acts as a portal to teh community resources 15:16 russ my view is that the bulk of the site is for people new to koha or considering koha 15:15 russ documentation pages? 15:15 kados one on koha.org and one on kohadocs.org 15:15 slef russ: what about the audience? 15:15 kados I think it's going to be a pain to maintain two doc sites 15:15 kados I'm a bit concerned about the documentation pages on koha.org 15:14 russ yep the audience 15:14 hdl for me neither. 15:14 slef cool. Any more questions for russ? 15:14 kados not from me 15:14 slef Is there any objection to trying openCMS? 15:13 rach and to make sure it's good :-) 15:12 kados :-) 15:12 kados ok ... as long as someone's got vested interest 15:12 rach we're looking at openCMS for some of our bigger CMS projects, so have some vested interest in putting the effort in to get it working for Koha 15:12 kados and the community's really huge 15:12 kados I like Mambo because it's very modular and easy to admin 15:11 slef translators were the other group, but they're a group within developers clearly 15:11 shaun imo mambo is not as powerful as opencms - not that i know everything about them but mambo is so much simpler 15:11 kados :-) 15:11 hdl That's why I asked. 15:11 hdl I know ;) 15:11 kados hdl: Mambo would be my choice 15:11 kados yea ... I'd say users 15:11 russ i must admit i havent used it, but chris and richard did a good sell job on me 15:11 hdl Is there a comparison between openCMS and MAMBO ? 15:11 indradg slef, bridge 15:11 rach aren't they users? 15:10 slef I wondered where librarians fit into the developers/users split 15:10 rach :-) 15:09 kados heh 15:09 slef bah, why does no-one give these products meaningful names like phpesp any more? ;-) 15:08 kados ahh 15:08 rach :-) 15:08 shaun snap 15:08 rach it's a product 15:08 shaun http://www.opencms.org/opencms/en/ 15:08 rach http://www.opencms.org/opencms/en/ 15:08 kados by 'Open CMS' what do you mean russ? 15:08 kados I think it outlines nicely our previous discussions 15:07 kados yep 15:07 russ http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz/kohawebredev/scope.html 15:07 russ i would like to get reactions to the objective and scope 15:07 kados :-) 15:07 russ they only went up about 12 hours ago :-) 15:06 kados I know everyone hasn't looked at the wireframes because the views on those files is under 5 15:06 rach nope 15:05 kados unless you'd like to start elsewhere rach 15:05 kados but let's start at Russ's report 15:05 kados ok 15:04 russ most of the stuff i would like to talk about falls under number 3 the audience 15:04 rach back 15:03 kados anything to add to the agenda? 15:03 kados koha.org/wiki/?page=AgendAndNotes05Jun29 15:03 kados in the meantime ... 15:03 kados ok ... we'll give rach a sec 15:02 kados rach'll brb (assuming the coffee machine isn't broken ;-)) 15:01 slef MJ Ray 15:01 kados who's around? 15:01 kados roll call 15:01 kados ok ... let's get started 15:01 kados yep 15:01 slef time, ladies and gentlemen, please! 14:58 kados T-minus 2 minutes 14:57 kados trust? 14:56 slef Ho hum. I trust katipo more than Gilby. 14:56 kados morning rach 14:56 rach morning 14:55 slef kados: koha.org/wiki/?page=AgendAndNotes05Jun29 not that long 14:55 kados tinyurl 'just works' 14:54 slef ho hum 14:54 slef and it's wrong page anyway 14:54 slef oops, ?page= :) 14:54 russ hi richard 14:54 slef kados: koha.org/wiki/?AgendAndNotes29Jun05 not that long 14:53 richard hi 14:53 kados hey richard 14:53 kados slef: so it's not going to fit into the topic 14:53 kados slef: the wiki link is very long 14:52 kados slef: why do you have a problem with tinyurl? 14:52 kados hey russ 14:52 slef what's with tinyurl all day? 14:52 kados add stuff to the agenda if you like 14:52 russ a shared laptop 14:51 slef are you russ or dean? ;-) 14:51 slef hi russter 14:51 russter hello 14:51 kados about 9 minutes before the meeting 14:43 shaun i restarted my x server, you said t-40 while i was away 14:39 slef shaun: were you copying me, or is it just innate in .uk? 14:31 shaun T minus 30... tension is really building up 14:21 indradg heh 14:21 slef but, hey, I'm dedicated, working while the confederations cup final is on ;-) 14:21 indradg slef, np 14:20 slef indradg: yes. Sorry for no reply. Busy busy. 14:20 indradg slef, did u get my mail? 14:20 slef T-40mins 13:25 indradg absolutely! 13:25 kados indradg: if the deal goes through write a list to #koha announcing it with links etc. 13:23 kados fantastic! 13:22 indradg in working alongside 13:22 indradg kados, if it works out... probably yes... Redhat India has also expressed its interest 13:22 kados indradg: so will you be the provider for India? 13:21 kados indradg: wow ... that's really sweet 13:21 indradg "stamped" as "Intel Certified" ;-) 13:21 indradg kados, both :) 13:18 kados indradg: will it just list apps or will it also list providers? 13:18 kados indradg: so tell me a bit more about what the Education stack will provide 13:17 kados indradg: nice! 13:04 indradg kados, if we can get onboard then whenever an Intel business partner (practically everyone) needs to position an ILS solution they will be pointed towards the stack component ;-) 13:01 indradg Intel India is putting together an Education tech stack based on F/OSS... i'm trying to get Koha in as the ILS component 13:01 shaun (2 hours) 13:00 indradg kados, i've an interesting news 12:38 kados just wondering if anyone here has done it 12:38 kados I see some traffic on the list about it 12:38 kados anyone know if anyone has successfully migrated from Sagebrush to Koha? 12:36 kados :-) 12:36 kados phone was in my couch 12:35 kados so 2 hours 25 minutes then ;-) 12:35 kados just realized that 12:35 kados owen: yep ... my mistake 12:35 indradg :) 12:35 kados yea ... found it 12:35 indradg kados, any luck with the phone? 12:34 owen Isn't it 4PM our time, kados? 12:34 kados I actually have 1 hour 30 minutes :-/ 12:29 shaun 2 hours 30 minutes... 12:09 kados indradg: thanks! 12:07 indradg kados, hi.... welcome back!