IRC log for #koha, 2005-06-22

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:52 kados paul around?
15:03 rach morning
15:04 kados morning rach
15:04 rach is owen about?
15:04 owen Sure is
15:05 rach we (well bob actually :-) has nearly finished our black and white version of the templates
15:05 owen Wow, that's great!
15:05 kados sweet!
15:07 rach we're testing at the moment, but they do make a big difference :-)
15:07 owen Is it possible to have a look?
15:07 rach yep I'm sure we could do that - I'll sort you out a username/pword
15:09 kados rach these are html templates?
15:10 paul can I have a look too ?
15:10 paul hi rach.
15:10 rach yep
15:10 kados rach I've some news too ... Emiliano finally caughed up some code ;-)
15:11 anacaona can i see?
15:11 anacaona please?
15:11 anacaona pretty please?
15:11 kados so now, armed with SAN's list and Emiliano's code I can begin a roadmap
15:11 kados for 2.4
15:11 anacaona pretty please with sugar on top?
15:11 kados but that'll have to wait until after ALA ;-)
15:11 rach ok now you I don't know :-)
15:11 kados anacaona: ha!
15:12 paul (kiwis don't like sugar on top. They prefer chocolate...)
15:12 russ well while we are all sharing news - i have been making some progress with the website redev
15:12 russ
15:12 kados great ... sounds like we're ready for another meeting ;-)
15:12 kados since you're all here ... let's schedule it
15:13 anacaona well. i can hardly argue with chocolate.
15:13 rach it's not a "live" system - as in, not running a library, but it is real data etc
15:13 paul what is this b&w done for ?
15:14 rach ah excellent question :-)
15:14 kados so are these templates based on NPL code or redesigned from the grouond up?
15:14 rach we (me especially :-) have been finding it hard to use/follow/test koha using the default and npl templates
15:15 rach they are based on the best (IMO if there has been a question) of both
15:15 rach so the homepage is from NPL, some of the the others are from default
15:15 kados hmmm ...
15:15 kados one criticism (from a usability perspective)
15:15 rach yep
15:15 kados missing the NPL sidebar
15:16 rach yep - on purpose
15:16 kados so I have to reload pages every time I want to do something
15:16 kados instead of just using shortkeys
15:16 kados and barcode scanners
15:16 rach ah are they in the sidebar?
15:16 kados yep
15:16 rach these aren't meant to be used by any library to run
15:16 kados ahh ... are these programmer templates?
15:17 rach what I wanted, is a set of plain templates, that would be easy to add features to
15:17 kados gotcha
15:17 rach that then could be put into your colour scheme etc of choice
15:17 rach but you could do the basic testing, without getting distracted
15:18 rach but if we've ripped out the key commands, for going to different sections I can get them put back I hope :-)
15:18 kados well they can't be there unless you've also got input boxes
15:19 owen I think we need an even more stripped-down version to act as the programmer templates
15:19 rach really?
15:19 owen Something with zero usability :)
15:19 rach :-)
15:19 kados i agree
15:19 owen No tables, no page formatting, no nothing
15:19 owen Just H1, H2, FORM, INPUT, etc.
15:19 kados yep ... there's still quite a bit of html bloat
15:19 rach hmm - the only problem we've found with that
15:20 rach is that if it's too ugly, it again gets hard for other people to test
15:20 kados hard for an Interface designer to manage changes with all that extra html
15:20 rach in our other projects, we've found that a basic set of styles, and plain, but not hideous gets a reasonable balance
15:21 rach but to do it all with styles if we can - which I suspect isn't the case here, as we have just taken the existing templates, rather than starting from scratch
15:21 kados but the programmer templates aren't really for user testing
15:21 kados IMO
15:21 rach yeah  - well the way we do it usually they are - so you get the user (who might be me for example) to make sure it all makes sense
15:22 rach and they can follow it
15:22 rach so we'll get rangitikei to test their data conversion on these templates
15:22 rach so that their data "stands out"
15:23 russ i think you are talking about testing at two different times
15:23 kados yep
15:23 russ development for a new version and deploying the system before doing some design for a given client
15:23 russ s/and/vs
15:23 owen The first 'testing' round is really the developer building new functionality and making sure it works
15:24 russ well what we have done in the past is build complete static scenarios
15:24 russ using a template such as this
15:24 owen A minimal programmer template would allow the template-writer to easily see what changes were made, so that they could be copied into the working template
15:24 russ for testing
15:24 russ sorry i mean usability testing
15:25 russ to test a functionality before any code is written
15:25 kados so functionality testing then ;-)
15:25 russ but i am not sure if that is appropriate here
15:27 kados russ, rach, owen , paul
15:27 kados
15:28 kados Tuesday, June 28, 2005 at 20:00:00
15:28 kados good for the next Website/Interface Design Meeting?
15:28 russ sorry i cant make that time
15:28 paul not at home on 28.
15:28 russ i have a seminar
15:28 kados ok ...
15:28 paul (but i can't be everywhere...)
15:28 kados russ: what time is better?
15:28 paul (& design/interface is really not my specialty ;-) )
15:28 kados paul: right ;-)
15:28 paul (i'll request hdl to be here)
15:28 russ later in the week is better - weds or friday
15:29 kados ok
15:29 paul (he's my employee, so I can give him some directions ;-) )
15:29 kados 20:00 on Wed ok?
15:29 kados 20 GMT that is ;-)
15:29 paul ok
15:30 kados russ, owen, rach?
15:30 rach ok for me
15:30 russ yep
15:30 paul (announce it to koha-devel, that's ok for me/hdl)
15:30 kados ok ... i'll send an email in a bit
15:31 rach I have a 10 am meeting - so max 1.5 hrs meeting for me :-)
15:38 rach so owen can you achieve the sort of lined up look for the form fields with css?
15:38 paul have a good day koha fans.
15:39 rach good night paul
15:39 rach nice to catch you :-)
15:39 owen rach, there are ways to go about it (paul's templates attempt this in various places)
15:39 owen However, I'm not so fanatical about CSS that I go this route
15:39 owen I use tables to structure forms most of the time
15:40 rach ah I see - there are lots of tables in there
15:40 owen But I try to keep it simple, and only include label-input pairs in the table
15:40 owen Basically, I try to keep it as semantically correct as possible
15:41 rach if we get the time we can try to rip some more of them out - I have no objection, it's just been that we've needed to get it looking simpler quickly :-)
15:42 owen The ideal situation would be to get a set of templates that were in pristine condition--ready to have a brilliant stylesheet applied to them to perform any necessary layout and formatting tricks.
15:43 rach ah yes :-) how do we get to this nirvana
15:43 owen It involves some mountain-climbing, I think
15:43 rach slef is our purist
15:43 rach but does he do html?
15:45 rach maybe ben and shaun, but it really is a special sort of person who likes that sort of thing
15:45 kados it's not worth it
15:45 owen I think ben and shaun are more suited to the  styling stage than the stripping-down stage
15:45 owen How do you mean, kados?
15:46 kados well .. .some of the data demands tabular design IMO
15:46 rach yep - our guy richard might be the best at it, I'll see if I can get him and bob talking today
15:46 kados getting all the bugs (in the browsers, not in the html) is too much of a pain to deal with
15:47 owen tabular data demands a table.  There's nothing wrong with that.
15:47 kados right ... sorry i didn't read the whole thing ^^^
15:47 rach yep - but there are some extra tables even in our plain ones that probably don't need to be there
15:47 kados for a stripped down version you don't need tables as much
15:48 kados (I meant for a production version)
15:48 rach yep - so if we kept them for the data display, and the forms, and got the rest out, wouldn't be a bad thing
15:49 kados yep
15:58 owen "Seattle PL Releases RSS Feeds Out into the Wild": http://www.theshiftedlibrarian[…]nto_the_wild.html
15:59 owen It'd be great if we could get some user-centered RSS feeds into Koha
16:00 owen Is there any reason to question the practice of sending barcode and password through the URL?
16:00 owen The examples are over SSL, at least
16:12 kados well ... the url isn't ssled ;-)
16:13 kados sending the userid is probably ok ... but I'd question sending the password
16:14 kados unless there was another layer of authentication
16:15 owen How else would you do an RSS feed for a particular user?
16:18 kados well ... if you're going that route you'd want to dissasociate the system userid and the rss id
16:19 kados otherwise I could subscribe to anyone's account rss feed and associate going's on with their barcode number
16:19 kados (so a husband could monitor his wife's account if he knew her barcode number)
16:19 kados (say)
16:20 owen You'd have to have an id/password combo, though, so that people couldn't just plug in random numbers
16:20 kados yea ... or just use some kind of random number generator
16:21 kados (course, that'd be harder to remember )
16:21 kados hmmm
16:22 owen I was thinking you could have the system generate the URL string on the user's home page, so that they have to log in to get it.  From there they can plug it in to their RSS reader
16:22 kados yea ... so that seattle implementation is from the devil
16:22 kados it's sooo easy to snif urls
16:23 kados you can practly do it looking at an ethernet cable
16:23 kados :-)
16:23 kados owen: that sounds like it would work
16:24 kados it's really important to dissacosiate user/password from the actual rss link
16:24 kados if I had time I'd write a response to that article
16:24 rach do you guys use the recent acquisitions bit in the opac?
16:25 kados "Seatle PL Releases User/Password information out into the Wild
16:25 kados last time I remmeber it didn't work
16:26 owen uses the 'last modified' value I think
16:26 kados yea ...
16:26 owen Meaning all sorts of non-new stuff shows up
16:26 rach ah well that would explain something :-)
16:26 kados owen wrote his own version
16:26 kados owen: is that php?
16:26 owen Yeah
16:26 kados well you might as well commit it
16:26 rach share :-)
16:27 owen No reason why it couldn't be easily ported to Perl by someone with more skill than I
16:27 rach I guess we have our own version too -
16:27 rach brings up the latest additions
16:29 rach so anyone know how "recent" it is picking up?
16:29 rach changes in the last week?
16:29 owen It searches everything and returns the results ordered by date, descending
16:30 owen So as you go down the list the acquisitions get older and older
16:30 owen Only there's something going on there I don't understand, because it doesn't actually return EVERYTHING.
16:30 rach erg - in our larger db that sounds like a minus
16:30 owen It puts some kind of limit on it
16:30 owen Here's ours, by the way: http://search.athenscounty.lib[…]format-search.php
16:33 owen That's specifically for item-type based searches
16:33 rach that's cool
16:34 rach is more what I had in mind :-)
16:38 owen There's nothing particularly useful in the code other than the queries
16:38 owen (and those aren't especially complex, it's just that no one had done them yet)
19:24 kados chris: I figure you'd know best -- any clue what kind of bandwidth overhead the libraries you're supporting use for circ/searching transactions?
19:25 chris very little
19:25 chris bearing in mind we wrote koha precisely because we wanted a very low bandwidht solution
19:25 kados right ... thought I remembered that
19:25 chris its bloated somewhat since the initial version
19:26 kados yea
19:26 chris but is still low bandwidth
02:29 jeanlog hi
02:29 hdl hi
02:32 rach hi
03:06 osmoze hello
04:35 osmoze_ bonjour Paul, bien dormit ? ;)
04:36 paul réveillé depuis longtemps, ne pas croire que j'ai dormi jusqu'à maintenant ;-)
04:39 osmoze_ ahh....etre papa a bien ses joies :)
06:12 chris evening paul
07:10 kados paul: it sounds like the french libraries are scared of zebra
07:10 paul hi joshua.
07:10 kados hi ;-)
07:10 paul scared, not really, i think.
07:10 paul but afraid by 2 things :
07:11 paul * having a koha impossible to setup without an expert
07:11 kados (it's not now?)
07:11 paul * having a new-hitech-top-technology but not what they need everyday from a functionnal point of view.
07:11 kados right
07:12 paul I have at least 3-4 libraries in france that don't ask anybody to setup Koha, so it's possible.
07:12 kados I'm not sure what to do about the first one
07:12 paul my opinion is : continue investigating zebra to find how to have tools to set it easily.
07:13 kados My position is that we don't sacrifice functionality even if it means we have a slightly more technical setup
07:13 paul zebra is easy to install (make/make install)
07:13 kados yep ... seems so ...
07:13 paul but not to parameter.
07:13 kados right ...
07:13 paul so we have to find a way to ease the parameter process.
07:14 paul mme masson is a 55years old librarian that worked in many libraries.
07:14 kados I think it's all done with the configuration and mapping files
07:14 paul and even in "ministere of culture".
07:14 kados right
07:14 paul so, she knows developpers...
07:14 paul when they have a boring stuff & an interesting one, they alway choose the interesting.
07:14 kados here's something else I've been thinking about:
07:14 paul & zebra is VERY interesting...
07:15 paul (she thinks & i agree ;-) )
07:15 kados if a library is complaining about 'bugs' or 'missing  features' or 'things they want koha do do better'
07:15 kados they can sponsor 'fixes' for these at any time
07:15 paul so, she want to be sure zebra won't take the place of something else ;-)
07:15 paul ENSMP already sponsors a lot of fixes/improvements
07:15 paul (sylvain, from doxulting is hired by ENSMP in fact)
07:16 paul (+some fees for me/hdl)
07:16 kados right
07:16 kados so I don't see how Zebra will interfere with that process
07:16 paul but atm, i almost have fixed all what they requested.
07:16 paul me too. but that's what mme masson want to be sure I think.
07:17 paul (just answering a few minuts ago, did you read my mail ?)
07:17 kados right ... I wish my French was better ... I'd reply something along those lines
07:17 paul feel free to answer in english, i'll translate.
07:17 kados ok
07:17 kados thx ;-)
07:45 paul hi again francoisl
07:45 FrancoisL 'lo Paul ! nice lunch ?
07:45 paul yep
07:46 paul (with childrens. compétition du sport national des cantinières aujourd'hui... grève)

| Channels | #koha index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | plain, newest first | summary