Time  Nick      Message
12:52 kados     paul around?
15:03 rach      morning
15:04 kados     morning rach
15:04 rach      is owen about?
15:04 owen      Sure is
15:05 rach      we (well bob actually :-) has nearly finished our black and white version of the templates
15:05 owen      Wow, that's great!
15:05 kados     sweet!
15:07 rach      we're testing at the moment, but they do make a big difference :-)
15:07 owen      Is it possible to have a look?
15:07 rach      yep I'm sure we could do that - I'll sort you out a username/pword
15:09 kados     rach these are html templates?
15:10 paul      can I have a look too ?
15:10 paul      hi rach.
15:10 rach      yep
15:10 kados     rach I've some news too ... Emiliano finally caughed up some code ;-)
15:11 anacaona  can i see?
15:11 anacaona  please?
15:11 anacaona  pretty please?
15:11 kados     so now, armed with SAN's list and Emiliano's code I can begin a roadmap
15:11 kados     for 2.4
15:11 anacaona  pretty please with sugar on top?
15:11 kados     but that'll have to wait until after ALA ;-)
15:11 rach      ok now you I don't know :-)
15:11 kados     anacaona: ha!
15:12 paul      (kiwis don't like sugar on top. They prefer chocolate...)
15:12 russ      well while we are all sharing news - i have been making some progress with the website redev
15:12 russ      http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz/kohawebredev/
15:12 kados     great ... sounds like we're ready for another meeting ;-)
15:12 kados     since you're all here ... let's schedule it
15:13 anacaona  well. i can hardly argue with chocolate.
15:13 rach       it's not a "live" system - as in, not running a library, but it is real data etc
15:13 paul      what is this b&w done for ?
15:14 rach      ah excellent question :-)
15:14 kados     so are these templates based on NPL code or redesigned from the grouond up?
15:14 rach      we (me especially :-) have been finding it hard to use/follow/test koha using the default and npl templates
15:15 rach      they are based on the best (IMO if there has been a question) of both
15:15 rach      so the homepage is from NPL, some of the the others are from default
15:15 kados     hmmm ...
15:15 kados     one criticism (from a usability perspective)
15:15 rach      yep
15:15 kados     missing the NPL sidebar
15:16 rach      yep - on purpose
15:16 kados     so I have to reload pages every time I want to do something
15:16 kados     instead of just using shortkeys
15:16 kados     and barcode scanners
15:16 rach      ah are they in the sidebar?
15:16 kados     yep
15:16 rach      these aren't meant to be used by any library to run
15:16 kados     ahh ... are these programmer templates?
15:17 rach      what I wanted, is a set of plain templates, that would be easy to add features to
15:17 kados     gotcha
15:17 rach      that then could be put into your colour scheme etc of choice
15:17 rach      but you could do the basic testing, without getting distracted
15:18 rach      but if we've ripped out the key commands, for going to different sections I can get them put back I hope :-)
15:18 kados     well they can't be there unless you've also got input boxes
15:19 owen      I think we need an even more stripped-down version to act as the programmer templates
15:19 rach      really?
15:19 owen      Something with zero usability :)
15:19 rach      :-)
15:19 kados     i agree
15:19 owen      No tables, no page formatting, no nothing
15:19 owen      Just H1, H2, FORM, INPUT, etc.
15:19 kados     yep ... there's still quite a bit of html bloat
15:19 rach      hmm - the only problem we've found with that
15:20 rach      is that if it's too ugly, it again gets hard for other people to test
15:20 kados     hard for an Interface designer to manage changes with all that extra html
15:20 rach      in our other projects, we've found that a basic set of styles, and plain, but not hideous gets a reasonable balance
15:21 rach      but to do it all with styles if we can - which I suspect isn't the case here, as we have just taken the existing templates, rather than starting from scratch
15:21 kados     but the programmer templates aren't really for user testing
15:21 kados     IMO
15:21 rach      yeah  - well the way we do it usually they are - so you get the user (who might be me for example) to make sure it all makes sense
15:22 rach      and they can follow it
15:22 rach      so we'll get rangitikei to test their data conversion on these templates
15:22 rach      so that their data "stands out"
15:23 russ      i think you are talking about testing at two different times
15:23 kados     yep
15:23 russ      development for a new version and deploying the system before doing some design for a given client
15:23 russ      s/and/vs
15:23 owen      The first 'testing' round is really the developer building new functionality and making sure it works
15:24 russ      well what we have done in the past is build complete static scenarios
15:24 russ      using a template such as this
15:24 owen      A minimal programmer template would allow the template-writer to easily see what changes were made, so that they could be copied into the working template
15:24 russ      for testing
15:24 russ      sorry i mean usability testing
15:25 russ      to test a functionality before any code is written
15:25 kados     so functionality testing then ;-)
15:25 russ      but i am not sure if that is appropriate here
15:27 kados     russ, rach, owen , paul
15:27 kados     http://tinyurl.com/d47p3
15:28 kados     Tuesday, June 28, 2005 at 20:00:00
15:28 kados     good for the next Website/Interface Design Meeting?
15:28 russ      sorry i cant make that time
15:28 paul      not at home on 28.
15:28 russ      i have a seminar
15:28 kados     ok ...
15:28 paul      (but i can't be everywhere...)
15:28 kados     russ: what time is better?
15:28 paul      (& design/interface is really not my specialty ;-) )
15:28 kados     paul: right ;-)
15:28 paul      (i'll request hdl to be here)
15:28 russ      later in the week is better - weds or friday
15:29 kados     ok
15:29 paul      (he's my employee, so I can give him some directions ;-) )
15:29 kados     20:00 on Wed ok?
15:29 kados     20 GMT that is ;-)
15:29 paul      ok
15:30 kados     russ, owen, rach?
15:30 rach      ok for me
15:30 russ      yep
15:30 paul      (announce it to koha-devel, that's ok for me/hdl)
15:30 kados     ok ... i'll send an email in a bit
15:31 rach      I have a 10 am meeting - so max 1.5 hrs meeting for me :-)
15:38 rach      so owen can you achieve the sort of lined up look for the form fields with css?
15:38 paul      have a good day koha fans.
15:39 rach      good night paul
15:39 rach      nice to catch you :-)
15:39 owen      rach, there are ways to go about it (paul's templates attempt this in various places)
15:39 owen      However, I'm not so fanatical about CSS that I go this route
15:39 owen      I use tables to structure forms most of the time
15:40 rach      ah I see - there are lots of tables in there
15:40 owen      But I try to keep it simple, and only include label-input pairs in the table
15:40 owen      Basically, I try to keep it as semantically correct as possible
15:41 rach      if we get the time we can try to rip some more of them out - I have no objection, it's just been that we've needed to get it looking simpler quickly :-)
15:42 owen      The ideal situation would be to get a set of templates that were in pristine condition--ready to have a brilliant stylesheet applied to them to perform any necessary layout and formatting tricks.
15:43 rach      ah yes :-) how do we get to this nirvana
15:43 owen      It involves some mountain-climbing, I think
15:43 rach      slef is our purist
15:43 rach      but does he do html?
15:45 rach      maybe ben and shaun, but it really is a special sort of person who likes that sort of thing
15:45 kados     it's not worth it
15:45 owen      I think ben and shaun are more suited to the  styling stage than the stripping-down stage
15:45 owen      How do you mean, kados?
15:46 kados     well .. .some of the data demands tabular design IMO
15:46 rach      yep - our guy richard might be the best at it, I'll see if I can get him and bob talking today
15:46 kados     getting all the bugs (in the browsers, not in the html) is too much of a pain to deal with
15:47 owen      tabular data demands a table.  There's nothing wrong with that.
15:47 kados     right ... sorry i didn't read the whole thing ^^^
15:47 rach      yep - but there are some extra tables even in our plain ones that probably don't need to be there
15:47 kados     for a stripped down version you don't need tables as much
15:48 kados     (I meant for a production version)
15:48 rach      yep - so if we kept them for the data display, and the forms, and got the rest out, wouldn't be a bad thing
15:49 kados     yep
15:58 owen      "Seattle PL Releases RSS Feeds Out into the Wild": http://www.theshiftedlibrarian.com/archives/2005/06/17/seattle_pl_releases_rss_feeds_out_into_the_wild.html
15:59 owen      It'd be great if we could get some user-centered RSS feeds into Koha
16:00 owen      Is there any reason to question the practice of sending barcode and password through the URL?
16:00 owen      The examples are over SSL, at least
16:12 kados     well ... the url isn't ssled ;-)
16:13 kados     sending the userid is probably ok ... but I'd question sending the password
16:14 kados     unless there was another layer of authentication
16:15 owen      How else would you do an RSS feed for a particular user?
16:18 kados     well ... if you're going that route you'd want to dissasociate the system userid and the rss id
16:19 kados     otherwise I could subscribe to anyone's account rss feed and associate going's on with their barcode number
16:19 kados     (so a husband could monitor his wife's account if he knew her barcode number)
16:19 kados     (say)
16:20 owen      You'd have to have an id/password combo, though, so that people couldn't just plug in random numbers
16:20 kados     yea ... or just use some kind of random number generator
16:21 kados     (course, that'd be harder to remember )
16:21 kados     hmmm
16:22 owen      I was thinking you could have the system generate the URL string on the user's home page, so that they have to log in to get it.  From there they can plug it in to their RSS reader
16:22 kados     yea ... so that seattle implementation is from the devil
16:22 kados     it's sooo easy to snif urls
16:23 kados     you can practly do it looking at an ethernet cable
16:23 kados     :-)
16:23 kados     owen: that sounds like it would work
16:24 kados     it's really important to dissacosiate user/password from the actual rss link
16:24 kados     if I had time I'd write a response to that article
16:24 rach      do you guys use the recent acquisitions bit in the opac?
16:25 kados     "Seatle PL Releases User/Password information out into the Wild
16:25 kados     last time I remmeber it didn't work
16:26 owen      Yeah...it uses the 'last modified' value I think
16:26 kados     yea ...
16:26 owen      Meaning all sorts of non-new stuff shows up
16:26 rach      ah well that would explain something :-)
16:26 kados     owen wrote his own version
16:26 kados     owen: is that php?
16:26 owen      Yeah
16:26 kados     well you might as well commit it
16:26 rach      share :-)
16:27 owen      No reason why it couldn't be easily ported to Perl by someone with more skill than I
16:27 rach      I guess we have our own version too - http://www.lgnz.co.nz/
16:27 rach      brings up the latest additions
16:29 rach      so anyone know how "recent" it is picking up?
16:29 rach      changes in the last week?
16:29 owen      It searches everything and returns the results ordered by date, descending
16:30 owen      So as you go down the list the acquisitions get older and older
16:30 owen      Only there's something going on there I don't understand, because it doesn't actually return EVERYTHING.
16:30 rach      erg - in our larger db that sounds like a minus
16:30 owen      It puts some kind of limit on it
16:30 owen      Here's ours, by the way: http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/opac-format-search.php
16:33 owen      That's specifically for item-type based searches
16:33 rach      that's cool
16:34 rach      is more what I had in mind :-)
16:38 owen      There's nothing particularly useful in the code other than the queries
16:38 owen      (and those aren't especially complex, it's just that no one had done them yet)
19:24 kados     chris: I figure you'd know best -- any clue what kind of bandwidth overhead the libraries you're supporting use for circ/searching transactions?
19:25 chris     very little
19:25 chris     bearing in mind we wrote koha precisely because we wanted a very low bandwidht solution
19:25 kados     right ... thought I remembered that
19:25 chris     its bloated somewhat since the initial version
19:26 kados     yea
19:26 chris     but is still low bandwidth
02:29 jeanlog   hi
02:29 hdl       hi
02:32 rach      hi
03:06 osmoze    hello
04:35 osmoze_   bonjour Paul, bien dormit ? ;)
04:36 paul      réveillé depuis longtemps, ne pas croire que j'ai dormi jusqu'à maintenant ;-)
04:39 osmoze_   ahh....etre papa a bien ses joies :)
06:12 chris     evening paul
07:10 kados     paul: it sounds like the french libraries are scared of zebra
07:10 paul      hi joshua.
07:10 kados     hi ;-)
07:10 paul      scared, not really, i think.
07:10 paul      but afraid by 2 things :
07:11 paul      * having a koha impossible to setup without an expert
07:11 kados     (it's not now?)
07:11 paul      * having a new-hitech-top-technology but not what they need everyday from a functionnal point of view.
07:11 kados     right
07:12 paul      I have at least 3-4 libraries in france that don't ask anybody to setup Koha, so it's possible.
07:12 kados     I'm not sure what to do about the first one
07:12 paul      my opinion is : continue investigating zebra to find how to have tools to set it easily.
07:13 kados     My position is that we don't sacrifice functionality even if it means we have a slightly more technical setup
07:13 paul      zebra is easy to install (make/make install)
07:13 kados     yep ... seems so ...
07:13 paul      but not to parameter.
07:13 kados     right ...
07:13 paul      so we have to find a way to ease the parameter process.
07:14 paul      mme masson is a 55years old librarian that worked in many libraries.
07:14 kados     I think it's all done with the configuration and mapping files
07:14 paul      and even in "ministere of culture".
07:14 kados     right
07:14 paul      so, she knows developpers...
07:14 paul      when they have a boring stuff & an interesting one, they alway choose the interesting.
07:14 kados     here's something else I've been thinking about:
07:14 paul      & zebra is VERY interesting...
07:15 paul      (she thinks & i agree ;-) )
07:15 kados     if a library is complaining about 'bugs' or 'missing  features' or 'things they want koha do do better'
07:15 kados     they can sponsor 'fixes' for these at any time
07:15 paul      so, she want to be sure zebra won't take the place of something else ;-)
07:15 paul      ENSMP already sponsors a lot of fixes/improvements
07:15 paul      (sylvain, from doxulting is hired by ENSMP in fact)
07:16 paul      (+some fees for me/hdl)
07:16 kados     right
07:16 kados     so I don't see how Zebra will interfere with that process
07:16 paul      but atm, i almost have fixed all what they requested.
07:16 paul      me too. but that's what mme masson want to be sure I think.
07:17 paul      (just answering a few minuts ago, did you read my mail ?)
07:17 kados     right ... I wish my French was better ... I'd reply something along those lines
07:17 paul      feel free to answer in english, i'll translate.
07:17 kados     ok
07:17 kados     thx ;-)
07:45 paul      hi again francoisl
07:45 FrancoisL 'lo Paul ! nice lunch ?
07:45 paul      yep
07:46 paul      (with childrens. compétition du sport national des cantinières aujourd'hui... grève)