Time Nick Message 12:52 kados paul around? 15:03 rach morning 15:04 kados morning rach 15:04 rach is owen about? 15:04 owen Sure is 15:05 rach we (well bob actually :-) has nearly finished our black and white version of the templates 15:05 owen Wow, that's great! 15:05 kados sweet! 15:07 rach we're testing at the moment, but they do make a big difference :-) 15:07 owen Is it possible to have a look? 15:07 rach yep I'm sure we could do that - I'll sort you out a username/pword 15:09 kados rach these are html templates? 15:10 paul can I have a look too ? 15:10 paul hi rach. 15:10 rach yep 15:10 kados rach I've some news too ... Emiliano finally caughed up some code ;-) 15:11 anacaona can i see? 15:11 anacaona please? 15:11 anacaona pretty please? 15:11 kados so now, armed with SAN's list and Emiliano's code I can begin a roadmap 15:11 kados for 2.4 15:11 anacaona pretty please with sugar on top? 15:11 kados but that'll have to wait until after ALA ;-) 15:11 rach ok now you I don't know :-) 15:11 kados anacaona: ha! 15:12 paul (kiwis don't like sugar on top. They prefer chocolate...) 15:12 russ well while we are all sharing news - i have been making some progress with the website redev 15:12 russ http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz/kohawebredev/ 15:12 kados great ... sounds like we're ready for another meeting ;-) 15:12 kados since you're all here ... let's schedule it 15:13 anacaona well. i can hardly argue with chocolate. 15:13 rach it's not a "live" system - as in, not running a library, but it is real data etc 15:13 paul what is this b&w done for ? 15:14 rach ah excellent question :-) 15:14 kados so are these templates based on NPL code or redesigned from the grouond up? 15:14 rach we (me especially :-) have been finding it hard to use/follow/test koha using the default and npl templates 15:15 rach they are based on the best (IMO if there has been a question) of both 15:15 rach so the homepage is from NPL, some of the the others are from default 15:15 kados hmmm ... 15:15 kados one criticism (from a usability perspective) 15:15 rach yep 15:15 kados missing the NPL sidebar 15:16 rach yep - on purpose 15:16 kados so I have to reload pages every time I want to do something 15:16 kados instead of just using shortkeys 15:16 kados and barcode scanners 15:16 rach ah are they in the sidebar? 15:16 kados yep 15:16 rach these aren't meant to be used by any library to run 15:16 kados ahh ... are these programmer templates? 15:17 rach what I wanted, is a set of plain templates, that would be easy to add features to 15:17 kados gotcha 15:17 rach that then could be put into your colour scheme etc of choice 15:17 rach but you could do the basic testing, without getting distracted 15:18 rach but if we've ripped out the key commands, for going to different sections I can get them put back I hope :-) 15:18 kados well they can't be there unless you've also got input boxes 15:19 owen I think we need an even more stripped-down version to act as the programmer templates 15:19 rach really? 15:19 owen Something with zero usability :) 15:19 rach :-) 15:19 kados i agree 15:19 owen No tables, no page formatting, no nothing 15:19 owen Just H1, H2, FORM, INPUT, etc. 15:19 kados yep ... there's still quite a bit of html bloat 15:19 rach hmm - the only problem we've found with that 15:20 rach is that if it's too ugly, it again gets hard for other people to test 15:20 kados hard for an Interface designer to manage changes with all that extra html 15:20 rach in our other projects, we've found that a basic set of styles, and plain, but not hideous gets a reasonable balance 15:21 rach but to do it all with styles if we can - which I suspect isn't the case here, as we have just taken the existing templates, rather than starting from scratch 15:21 kados but the programmer templates aren't really for user testing 15:21 kados IMO 15:21 rach yeah - well the way we do it usually they are - so you get the user (who might be me for example) to make sure it all makes sense 15:22 rach and they can follow it 15:22 rach so we'll get rangitikei to test their data conversion on these templates 15:22 rach so that their data "stands out" 15:23 russ i think you are talking about testing at two different times 15:23 kados yep 15:23 russ development for a new version and deploying the system before doing some design for a given client 15:23 russ s/and/vs 15:23 owen The first 'testing' round is really the developer building new functionality and making sure it works 15:24 russ well what we have done in the past is build complete static scenarios 15:24 russ using a template such as this 15:24 owen A minimal programmer template would allow the template-writer to easily see what changes were made, so that they could be copied into the working template 15:24 russ for testing 15:24 russ sorry i mean usability testing 15:25 russ to test a functionality before any code is written 15:25 kados so functionality testing then ;-) 15:25 russ but i am not sure if that is appropriate here 15:27 kados russ, rach, owen , paul 15:27 kados http://tinyurl.com/d47p3 15:28 kados Tuesday, June 28, 2005 at 20:00:00 15:28 kados good for the next Website/Interface Design Meeting? 15:28 russ sorry i cant make that time 15:28 paul not at home on 28. 15:28 russ i have a seminar 15:28 kados ok ... 15:28 paul (but i can't be everywhere...) 15:28 kados russ: what time is better? 15:28 paul (& design/interface is really not my specialty ;-) ) 15:28 kados paul: right ;-) 15:28 paul (i'll request hdl to be here) 15:28 russ later in the week is better - weds or friday 15:29 kados ok 15:29 paul (he's my employee, so I can give him some directions ;-) ) 15:29 kados 20:00 on Wed ok? 15:29 kados 20 GMT that is ;-) 15:29 paul ok 15:30 kados russ, owen, rach? 15:30 rach ok for me 15:30 russ yep 15:30 paul (announce it to koha-devel, that's ok for me/hdl) 15:30 kados ok ... i'll send an email in a bit 15:31 rach I have a 10 am meeting - so max 1.5 hrs meeting for me :-) 15:38 rach so owen can you achieve the sort of lined up look for the form fields with css? 15:38 paul have a good day koha fans. 15:39 rach good night paul 15:39 rach nice to catch you :-) 15:39 owen rach, there are ways to go about it (paul's templates attempt this in various places) 15:39 owen However, I'm not so fanatical about CSS that I go this route 15:39 owen I use tables to structure forms most of the time 15:40 rach ah I see - there are lots of tables in there 15:40 owen But I try to keep it simple, and only include label-input pairs in the table 15:40 owen Basically, I try to keep it as semantically correct as possible 15:41 rach if we get the time we can try to rip some more of them out - I have no objection, it's just been that we've needed to get it looking simpler quickly :-) 15:42 owen The ideal situation would be to get a set of templates that were in pristine condition--ready to have a brilliant stylesheet applied to them to perform any necessary layout and formatting tricks. 15:43 rach ah yes :-) how do we get to this nirvana 15:43 owen It involves some mountain-climbing, I think 15:43 rach slef is our purist 15:43 rach but does he do html? 15:45 rach maybe ben and shaun, but it really is a special sort of person who likes that sort of thing 15:45 kados it's not worth it 15:45 owen I think ben and shaun are more suited to the styling stage than the stripping-down stage 15:45 owen How do you mean, kados? 15:46 kados well .. .some of the data demands tabular design IMO 15:46 rach yep - our guy richard might be the best at it, I'll see if I can get him and bob talking today 15:46 kados getting all the bugs (in the browsers, not in the html) is too much of a pain to deal with 15:47 owen tabular data demands a table. There's nothing wrong with that. 15:47 kados right ... sorry i didn't read the whole thing ^^^ 15:47 rach yep - but there are some extra tables even in our plain ones that probably don't need to be there 15:47 kados for a stripped down version you don't need tables as much 15:48 kados (I meant for a production version) 15:48 rach yep - so if we kept them for the data display, and the forms, and got the rest out, wouldn't be a bad thing 15:49 kados yep 15:58 owen "Seattle PL Releases RSS Feeds Out into the Wild": http://www.theshiftedlibrarian.com/archives/2005/06/17/seattle_pl_releases_rss_feeds_out_into_the_wild.html 15:59 owen It'd be great if we could get some user-centered RSS feeds into Koha 16:00 owen Is there any reason to question the practice of sending barcode and password through the URL? 16:00 owen The examples are over SSL, at least 16:12 kados well ... the url isn't ssled ;-) 16:13 kados sending the userid is probably ok ... but I'd question sending the password 16:14 kados unless there was another layer of authentication 16:15 owen How else would you do an RSS feed for a particular user? 16:18 kados well ... if you're going that route you'd want to dissasociate the system userid and the rss id 16:19 kados otherwise I could subscribe to anyone's account rss feed and associate going's on with their barcode number 16:19 kados (so a husband could monitor his wife's account if he knew her barcode number) 16:19 kados (say) 16:20 owen You'd have to have an id/password combo, though, so that people couldn't just plug in random numbers 16:20 kados yea ... or just use some kind of random number generator 16:21 kados (course, that'd be harder to remember ) 16:21 kados hmmm 16:22 owen I was thinking you could have the system generate the URL string on the user's home page, so that they have to log in to get it. From there they can plug it in to their RSS reader 16:22 kados yea ... so that seattle implementation is from the devil 16:22 kados it's sooo easy to snif urls 16:23 kados you can practly do it looking at an ethernet cable 16:23 kados :-) 16:23 kados owen: that sounds like it would work 16:24 kados it's really important to dissacosiate user/password from the actual rss link 16:24 kados if I had time I'd write a response to that article 16:24 rach do you guys use the recent acquisitions bit in the opac? 16:25 kados "Seatle PL Releases User/Password information out into the Wild 16:25 kados last time I remmeber it didn't work 16:26 owen Yeah...it uses the 'last modified' value I think 16:26 kados yea ... 16:26 owen Meaning all sorts of non-new stuff shows up 16:26 rach ah well that would explain something :-) 16:26 kados owen wrote his own version 16:26 kados owen: is that php? 16:26 owen Yeah 16:26 kados well you might as well commit it 16:26 rach share :-) 16:27 owen No reason why it couldn't be easily ported to Perl by someone with more skill than I 16:27 rach I guess we have our own version too - http://www.lgnz.co.nz/ 16:27 rach brings up the latest additions 16:29 rach so anyone know how "recent" it is picking up? 16:29 rach changes in the last week? 16:29 owen It searches everything and returns the results ordered by date, descending 16:30 owen So as you go down the list the acquisitions get older and older 16:30 owen Only there's something going on there I don't understand, because it doesn't actually return EVERYTHING. 16:30 rach erg - in our larger db that sounds like a minus 16:30 owen It puts some kind of limit on it 16:30 owen Here's ours, by the way: http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/opac-format-search.php 16:33 owen That's specifically for item-type based searches 16:33 rach that's cool 16:34 rach is more what I had in mind :-) 16:38 owen There's nothing particularly useful in the code other than the queries 16:38 owen (and those aren't especially complex, it's just that no one had done them yet) 19:24 kados chris: I figure you'd know best -- any clue what kind of bandwidth overhead the libraries you're supporting use for circ/searching transactions? 19:25 chris very little 19:25 chris bearing in mind we wrote koha precisely because we wanted a very low bandwidht solution 19:25 kados right ... thought I remembered that 19:25 chris its bloated somewhat since the initial version 19:26 kados yea 19:26 chris but is still low bandwidth 02:29 jeanlog hi 02:29 hdl hi 02:32 rach hi 03:06 osmoze hello 04:35 osmoze_ bonjour Paul, bien dormit ? ;) 04:36 paul réveillé depuis longtemps, ne pas croire que j'ai dormi jusqu'à maintenant ;-) 04:39 osmoze_ ahh....etre papa a bien ses joies :) 06:12 chris evening paul 07:10 kados paul: it sounds like the french libraries are scared of zebra 07:10 paul hi joshua. 07:10 kados hi ;-) 07:10 paul scared, not really, i think. 07:10 paul but afraid by 2 things : 07:11 paul * having a koha impossible to setup without an expert 07:11 kados (it's not now?) 07:11 paul * having a new-hitech-top-technology but not what they need everyday from a functionnal point of view. 07:11 kados right 07:12 paul I have at least 3-4 libraries in france that don't ask anybody to setup Koha, so it's possible. 07:12 kados I'm not sure what to do about the first one 07:12 paul my opinion is : continue investigating zebra to find how to have tools to set it easily. 07:13 kados My position is that we don't sacrifice functionality even if it means we have a slightly more technical setup 07:13 paul zebra is easy to install (make/make install) 07:13 kados yep ... seems so ... 07:13 paul but not to parameter. 07:13 kados right ... 07:13 paul so we have to find a way to ease the parameter process. 07:14 paul mme masson is a 55years old librarian that worked in many libraries. 07:14 kados I think it's all done with the configuration and mapping files 07:14 paul and even in "ministere of culture". 07:14 kados right 07:14 paul so, she knows developpers... 07:14 paul when they have a boring stuff & an interesting one, they alway choose the interesting. 07:14 kados here's something else I've been thinking about: 07:14 paul & zebra is VERY interesting... 07:15 paul (she thinks & i agree ;-) ) 07:15 kados if a library is complaining about 'bugs' or 'missing features' or 'things they want koha do do better' 07:15 kados they can sponsor 'fixes' for these at any time 07:15 paul so, she want to be sure zebra won't take the place of something else ;-) 07:15 paul ENSMP already sponsors a lot of fixes/improvements 07:15 paul (sylvain, from doxulting is hired by ENSMP in fact) 07:16 paul (+some fees for me/hdl) 07:16 kados right 07:16 kados so I don't see how Zebra will interfere with that process 07:16 paul but atm, i almost have fixed all what they requested. 07:16 paul me too. but that's what mme masson want to be sure I think. 07:17 paul (just answering a few minuts ago, did you read my mail ?) 07:17 kados right ... I wish my French was better ... I'd reply something along those lines 07:17 paul feel free to answer in english, i'll translate. 07:17 kados ok 07:17 kados thx ;-) 07:45 paul hi again francoisl 07:45 FrancoisL 'lo Paul ! nice lunch ? 07:45 paul yep 07:46 paul (with childrens. compétition du sport national des cantinières aujourd'hui... grève)