Time Nick Message 07:46 paul (with childrens. compétition du sport national des cantinières aujourd'hui... grève) 07:45 paul yep 07:45 FrancoisL 'lo Paul ! nice lunch ? 07:45 paul hi again francoisl 07:17 kados thx ;-) 07:17 kados ok 07:17 paul feel free to answer in english, i'll translate. 07:17 kados right ... I wish my French was better ... I'd reply something along those lines 07:17 paul (just answering a few minuts ago, did you read my mail ?) 07:16 paul me too. but that's what mme masson want to be sure I think. 07:16 paul but atm, i almost have fixed all what they requested. 07:16 kados so I don't see how Zebra will interfere with that process 07:16 kados right 07:16 paul (+some fees for me/hdl) 07:15 paul (sylvain, from doxulting is hired by ENSMP in fact) 07:15 paul ENSMP already sponsors a lot of fixes/improvements 07:15 paul so, she want to be sure zebra won't take the place of something else ;-) 07:15 kados they can sponsor 'fixes' for these at any time 07:15 kados if a library is complaining about 'bugs' or 'missing features' or 'things they want koha do do better' 07:15 paul (she thinks & i agree ;-) ) 07:14 paul & zebra is VERY interesting... 07:14 kados here's something else I've been thinking about: 07:14 paul when they have a boring stuff & an interesting one, they alway choose the interesting. 07:14 paul so, she knows developpers... 07:14 kados right 07:14 paul and even in "ministere of culture". 07:14 kados I think it's all done with the configuration and mapping files 07:14 paul mme masson is a 55years old librarian that worked in many libraries. 07:13 paul so we have to find a way to ease the parameter process. 07:13 kados right ... 07:13 paul but not to parameter. 07:13 kados yep ... seems so ... 07:13 paul zebra is easy to install (make/make install) 07:13 kados My position is that we don't sacrifice functionality even if it means we have a slightly more technical setup 07:12 paul my opinion is : continue investigating zebra to find how to have tools to set it easily. 07:12 kados I'm not sure what to do about the first one 07:12 paul I have at least 3-4 libraries in france that don't ask anybody to setup Koha, so it's possible. 07:11 kados right 07:11 paul * having a new-hitech-top-technology but not what they need everyday from a functionnal point of view. 07:11 kados (it's not now?) 07:11 paul * having a koha impossible to setup without an expert 07:10 paul but afraid by 2 things : 07:10 paul scared, not really, i think. 07:10 kados hi ;-) 07:10 paul hi joshua. 07:10 kados paul: it sounds like the french libraries are scared of zebra 06:12 chris evening paul 04:39 osmoze_ ahh....etre papa a bien ses joies :) 04:36 paul réveillé depuis longtemps, ne pas croire que j'ai dormi jusqu'à maintenant ;-) 04:35 osmoze_ bonjour Paul, bien dormit ? ;) 03:06 osmoze hello 02:32 rach hi 02:29 hdl hi 02:29 jeanlog hi 19:26 chris but is still low bandwidth 19:26 kados yea 19:25 chris its bloated somewhat since the initial version 19:25 kados right ... thought I remembered that 19:25 chris bearing in mind we wrote koha precisely because we wanted a very low bandwidht solution 19:25 chris very little 19:24 kados chris: I figure you'd know best -- any clue what kind of bandwidth overhead the libraries you're supporting use for circ/searching transactions? 16:38 owen (and those aren't especially complex, it's just that no one had done them yet) 16:38 owen There's nothing particularly useful in the code other than the queries 16:34 rach is more what I had in mind :-) 16:33 rach that's cool 16:33 owen That's specifically for item-type based searches 16:30 owen Here's ours, by the way: http://search.athenscounty.lib.oh.us/opac-format-search.php 16:30 owen It puts some kind of limit on it 16:30 rach erg - in our larger db that sounds like a minus 16:30 owen Only there's something going on there I don't understand, because it doesn't actually return EVERYTHING. 16:30 owen So as you go down the list the acquisitions get older and older 16:29 owen It searches everything and returns the results ordered by date, descending 16:29 rach changes in the last week? 16:29 rach so anyone know how "recent" it is picking up? 16:27 rach brings up the latest additions 16:27 rach I guess we have our own version too - http://www.lgnz.co.nz/ 16:27 owen No reason why it couldn't be easily ported to Perl by someone with more skill than I 16:26 rach share :-) 16:26 kados well you might as well commit it 16:26 owen Yeah 16:26 kados owen: is that php? 16:26 kados owen wrote his own version 16:26 rach ah well that would explain something :-) 16:26 owen Meaning all sorts of non-new stuff shows up 16:26 kados yea ... 16:26 owen Yeah...it uses the 'last modified' value I think 16:25 kados last time I remmeber it didn't work 16:25 kados "Seatle PL Releases User/Password information out into the Wild 16:24 rach do you guys use the recent acquisitions bit in the opac? 16:24 kados if I had time I'd write a response to that article 16:24 kados it's really important to dissacosiate user/password from the actual rss link 16:23 kados owen: that sounds like it would work 16:23 kados :-) 16:23 kados you can practly do it looking at an ethernet cable 16:22 kados it's sooo easy to snif urls 16:22 kados yea ... so that seattle implementation is from the devil 16:22 owen I was thinking you could have the system generate the URL string on the user's home page, so that they have to log in to get it. From there they can plug it in to their RSS reader 16:21 kados hmmm 16:21 kados (course, that'd be harder to remember ) 16:20 kados yea ... or just use some kind of random number generator 16:20 owen You'd have to have an id/password combo, though, so that people couldn't just plug in random numbers 16:19 kados (say) 16:19 kados (so a husband could monitor his wife's account if he knew her barcode number) 16:19 kados otherwise I could subscribe to anyone's account rss feed and associate going's on with their barcode number 16:18 kados well ... if you're going that route you'd want to dissasociate the system userid and the rss id 16:15 owen How else would you do an RSS feed for a particular user? 16:14 kados unless there was another layer of authentication 16:13 kados sending the userid is probably ok ... but I'd question sending the password 16:12 kados well ... the url isn't ssled ;-) 16:00 owen The examples are over SSL, at least 16:00 owen Is there any reason to question the practice of sending barcode and password through the URL? 15:59 owen It'd be great if we could get some user-centered RSS feeds into Koha 15:58 owen "Seattle PL Releases RSS Feeds Out into the Wild": http://www.theshiftedlibrarian.com/archives/2005/06/17/seattle_pl_releases_rss_feeds_out_into_the_wild.html 15:49 kados yep 15:48 rach yep - so if we kept them for the data display, and the forms, and got the rest out, wouldn't be a bad thing 15:48 kados (I meant for a production version) 15:47 kados for a stripped down version you don't need tables as much 15:47 rach yep - but there are some extra tables even in our plain ones that probably don't need to be there 15:47 kados right ... sorry i didn't read the whole thing ^^^ 15:47 owen tabular data demands a table. There's nothing wrong with that. 15:46 kados getting all the bugs (in the browsers, not in the html) is too much of a pain to deal with 15:46 rach yep - our guy richard might be the best at it, I'll see if I can get him and bob talking today 15:46 kados well .. .some of the data demands tabular design IMO 15:45 owen How do you mean, kados? 15:45 owen I think ben and shaun are more suited to the styling stage than the stripping-down stage 15:45 kados it's not worth it 15:45 rach maybe ben and shaun, but it really is a special sort of person who likes that sort of thing 15:43 rach but does he do html? 15:43 rach slef is our purist 15:43 owen It involves some mountain-climbing, I think 15:43 rach ah yes :-) how do we get to this nirvana 15:42 owen The ideal situation would be to get a set of templates that were in pristine condition--ready to have a brilliant stylesheet applied to them to perform any necessary layout and formatting tricks. 15:41 rach if we get the time we can try to rip some more of them out - I have no objection, it's just been that we've needed to get it looking simpler quickly :-) 15:40 owen Basically, I try to keep it as semantically correct as possible 15:40 owen But I try to keep it simple, and only include label-input pairs in the table 15:40 rach ah I see - there are lots of tables in there 15:39 owen I use tables to structure forms most of the time 15:39 owen However, I'm not so fanatical about CSS that I go this route 15:39 owen rach, there are ways to go about it (paul's templates attempt this in various places) 15:39 rach nice to catch you :-) 15:39 rach good night paul 15:38 paul have a good day koha fans. 15:38 rach so owen can you achieve the sort of lined up look for the form fields with css? 15:31 rach I have a 10 am meeting - so max 1.5 hrs meeting for me :-) 15:30 kados ok ... i'll send an email in a bit 15:30 paul (announce it to koha-devel, that's ok for me/hdl) 15:30 russ yep 15:30 rach ok for me 15:30 kados russ, owen, rach? 15:29 paul ok 15:29 kados 20 GMT that is ;-) 15:29 kados 20:00 on Wed ok? 15:29 paul (he's my employee, so I can give him some directions ;-) ) 15:29 kados ok 15:28 russ later in the week is better - weds or friday 15:28 paul (i'll request hdl to be here) 15:28 kados paul: right ;-) 15:28 paul (& design/interface is really not my specialty ;-) ) 15:28 kados russ: what time is better? 15:28 paul (but i can't be everywhere...) 15:28 kados ok ... 15:28 russ i have a seminar 15:28 paul not at home on 28. 15:28 russ sorry i cant make that time 15:28 kados good for the next Website/Interface Design Meeting? 15:28 kados Tuesday, June 28, 2005 at 20:00:00 15:27 kados http://tinyurl.com/d47p3 15:27 kados russ, rach, owen , paul 15:25 russ but i am not sure if that is appropriate here 15:25 kados so functionality testing then ;-) 15:25 russ to test a functionality before any code is written 15:24 russ sorry i mean usability testing 15:24 russ for testing 15:24 owen A minimal programmer template would allow the template-writer to easily see what changes were made, so that they could be copied into the working template 15:24 russ using a template such as this 15:24 russ well what we have done in the past is build complete static scenarios 15:23 owen The first 'testing' round is really the developer building new functionality and making sure it works 15:23 russ s/and/vs 15:23 russ development for a new version and deploying the system before doing some design for a given client 15:23 kados yep 15:23 russ i think you are talking about testing at two different times 15:22 rach so that their data "stands out" 15:22 rach so we'll get rangitikei to test their data conversion on these templates 15:22 rach and they can follow it 15:21 rach yeah - well the way we do it usually they are - so you get the user (who might be me for example) to make sure it all makes sense 15:21 kados IMO 15:21 kados but the programmer templates aren't really for user testing 15:21 rach but to do it all with styles if we can - which I suspect isn't the case here, as we have just taken the existing templates, rather than starting from scratch 15:20 rach in our other projects, we've found that a basic set of styles, and plain, but not hideous gets a reasonable balance 15:20 kados hard for an Interface designer to manage changes with all that extra html 15:20 rach is that if it's too ugly, it again gets hard for other people to test 15:19 rach hmm - the only problem we've found with that 15:19 kados yep ... there's still quite a bit of html bloat 15:19 owen Just H1, H2, FORM, INPUT, etc. 15:19 owen No tables, no page formatting, no nothing 15:19 kados i agree 15:19 rach :-) 15:19 owen Something with zero usability :) 15:19 rach really? 15:19 owen I think we need an even more stripped-down version to act as the programmer templates 15:18 kados well they can't be there unless you've also got input boxes 15:18 rach but if we've ripped out the key commands, for going to different sections I can get them put back I hope :-) 15:17 rach but you could do the basic testing, without getting distracted 15:17 rach that then could be put into your colour scheme etc of choice 15:17 kados gotcha 15:17 rach what I wanted, is a set of plain templates, that would be easy to add features to 15:16 kados ahh ... are these programmer templates? 15:16 rach these aren't meant to be used by any library to run 15:16 kados yep 15:16 rach ah are they in the sidebar? 15:16 kados and barcode scanners 15:16 kados instead of just using shortkeys 15:16 kados so I have to reload pages every time I want to do something 15:16 rach yep - on purpose 15:15 kados missing the NPL sidebar 15:15 rach yep 15:15 kados one criticism (from a usability perspective) 15:15 kados hmmm ... 15:15 rach so the homepage is from NPL, some of the the others are from default 15:15 rach they are based on the best (IMO if there has been a question) of both 15:14 rach we (me especially :-) have been finding it hard to use/follow/test koha using the default and npl templates 15:14 kados so are these templates based on NPL code or redesigned from the grouond up? 15:14 rach ah excellent question :-) 15:13 paul what is this b&w done for ? 15:13 rach it's not a "live" system - as in, not running a library, but it is real data etc 15:13 anacaona well. i can hardly argue with chocolate. 15:12 kados since you're all here ... let's schedule it 15:12 kados great ... sounds like we're ready for another meeting ;-) 15:12 russ http://www.russandsarah.gen.nz/kohawebredev/ 15:12 russ well while we are all sharing news - i have been making some progress with the website redev 15:12 paul (kiwis don't like sugar on top. They prefer chocolate...) 15:11 kados anacaona: ha! 15:11 rach ok now you I don't know :-) 15:11 kados but that'll have to wait until after ALA ;-) 15:11 anacaona pretty please with sugar on top? 15:11 kados for 2.4 15:11 kados so now, armed with SAN's list and Emiliano's code I can begin a roadmap 15:11 anacaona pretty please? 15:11 anacaona please? 15:11 anacaona can i see? 15:10 kados rach I've some news too ... Emiliano finally caughed up some code ;-) 15:10 rach yep 15:10 paul hi rach. 15:10 paul can I have a look too ? 15:09 kados rach these are html templates? 15:07 rach yep I'm sure we could do that - I'll sort you out a username/pword 15:07 owen Is it possible to have a look? 15:07 rach we're testing at the moment, but they do make a big difference :-) 15:05 kados sweet! 15:05 owen Wow, that's great! 15:05 rach we (well bob actually :-) has nearly finished our black and white version of the templates 15:04 owen Sure is 15:04 rach is owen about? 15:04 kados morning rach 15:03 rach morning 12:52 kados paul around?