IRC log for #koha, 2005-04-20

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
12:02 paul sorry, disconnected my networkcard with my foot...
12:02 paul I repeat my question :
12:02 paul GST Registered
12:02 paul how to translate this to french is our question...
12:02 paul so, if someone could explain what it means.
12:15 Ben er, 'enregistré par GST'?
12:15 Ben at a rough guess
12:17 Ben can we not get google languages to translate the strings into english and then reword them?
12:17 Ben is anyone here?
12:18 paul yes Ben.
12:18 Ben right
12:18 paul the problem is that this rough translation means nothing in french
12:19 Ben 'GST Registered' would mean, roughly, 'enregistré par GST'
12:19 paul (at least, nothing interesting)
12:19 Ben I don't know what (the?) GST is
12:19 paul The translator (a woman) wondered if it were not a typical term in english
12:19 paul (GST : TVA in french)
12:19 Ben oh
12:20 Ben what does it actually stand for? i.e. TGV stands for train grande vitesse
12:25 paul TVA : Taxe sur la Valeur Ajoutée
12:25 paul (19,6% in France)
12:26 paul (GIST is the complete english term i think)
12:27 Ben ok
12:30 Ben shaun should be back on in a second - the simpsons has finished :)
12:30 kados hehe
12:31 kados yea ... pretty big news
12:32 Ben adobe's website has gone down after being listed on slashdot
12:32 kados hehe
12:32 Ben and I still have some script writing to do, plus two weeks' geog coursework to be handed in tomorrow
12:32 Ben nyargh..
12:34 Ben we must get the argentinians to give us their code, or you're heading for a very tedious & repetitive coding session
12:35 Ben but how..
12:46 shaun im back - i was also doing geography coursework :p
12:49 Ben lol
12:49 Ben shaun, do you know any perl at all?
12:50 shaun yes
12:51 shaun much more than my c(++), much less than my php
12:51 Ben shaun, good work on the mods to the circulation tmpl. can you change 'enter borrower...' to a paragraph
12:52 Ben and duplicate the formatting of 'settings' below in a new item 'Issues', to be placed just above the input box
12:52 shaun " Enter borrower card number or partial last name" ?
12:52 Ben yes
12:52 Ben then change 'circulation: issues' to 'circulation'
12:53 shaun imo, circulation: issues is better - circulation is the heading for the section.
12:56 shaun btw: can anybody help with using cvs? I am in a terminal, and don't know what server and repository to use...
12:59 shaun over at sourceforge it says "cvs -z3 co -P modulename" -- what is the modulename?
12:59 kados use co koha
12:59 kados for head
12:59 kados use co -r rel_2_2 koha for 2.2
12:59 kados don't need the -P
13:00 shaun so "cvs -z3 co koha"
13:00 shaun wow - big downloads...
13:01 shaun so, if I edit the template (say returns.tmpl was buggy - i'll try my hand at that first), how do I commit the changes with my sourceforge username etc.?
13:02 kados well ... you'll need to check it out as your sourceforge user
13:02 kados then just do cvs commit filename
13:02 shaun is that relative to the current directory?
13:02 kados so I run cvs -z3 co koha
13:03 kados well after you check out the tree you'll navigate to your file, make the changes then do cvs commit filename
13:04 Ben shaun,. could you please make the changes I asked you to do, or send me the tmpl?
13:06 Ben hmm, Adobe Dreamweaver..
13:06 shaun so, im in /home/shaun, which has a subdirectory koha/ - I just use "cvs commit koha/koha-tmpl/intranet-tmpl/​default/en/circ/returns.tmpl" ?
13:06 kados yep provided you checkd out koha as your sourceforge user
13:06 shaun | OT: I'm wondering what will come of GoLive
13:06 kados otherwise it won't work
13:07 shaun *checks out cvs*
13:07 shaun thanks
13:08 Ben hopefully golive will be crushed and burned
13:08 Ben gtg
13:08 Ben bye
13:08 shaun bye
13:16 shaun if anyone is here: cvs [server aborted]: "commit" requires write access to the repository
13:18 shaun brb
13:18 kados shaun: right ... so in order to commit stuff paul'll have to add you to the Koha developer list on sourceforge
13:19 shaun chris added me last night
13:19 kados huh
13:19 kados strange
13:19 kados are you sure you checked out the repo as your user?
13:19 shaun[…]hp?group_id=16466
13:20 shaun Root:
13:20 shaun i really have to go - i'll be back in less than an hour
13:31 kados pserver won't work shaun
13:31 kados you have to use ssh
13:50 shaun ah, that's it - how does that work?
13:51 kados read this:
13:51 kados[…]id=768&group_id=1
13:51 kados[…]=14033&group_id=1
13:51 kados :-)
13:55 shaun done - im checking viewcvs just to make sure i haven't killed cvs ;)
13:57 shaun oh damn - owen got there first :p
13:57 owen on rel_2_2 only
13:57 owen But you should be working in HEAD
13:59 owen If you'd like to get emails when someone makes a commit (to keep track of what's new), go here:[…]listinfo/koha-cvs
13:59 owen There's also this list, for bugs:[…]istinfo/koha-bugs
14:00 shaun it doesnt seem to have gone in - any idea where the file I have committed would be>
14:00 shaun ?
14:01 kados are they new files?
14:02 shaun just returns.tmpl - Owen committed the change to 2.2, afaik - I tried to commit the change to HEAD
14:02 shaun's password:
14:02 shaun Checking in koha/koha-tmpl/intranet-tmpl/​default/en/circ/returns.tmpl;
14:02 shaun new revision: 1.19; previous revision: 1.18
14:02 shaun done
14:02 shaun Mailing
14:02 shaun Generating notification message...
14:02 shaun Generating notification message... done.
14:02 shaun [shaun@buildsys]$
14:02 kados yea ... so sourceforge seems pretty slow today based on a commit I made recently
14:02 paul_dine good news : it's in HEAD
14:02 kados give it a few hours
14:02 kados ;-)
14:03 shaun lol
14:03 shaun paul: how do you know? by checking out?
14:03 paul I know by koha-cvs mailing list)
14:03 shaun maybe the list message isn't up on sourceforge either...
14:03 kados the webview of cvs is usually way behind the actual tree
14:04 paul iirc, that's updated only once every X hours.
14:04 kados paul did you get my earlier commit to HEAD too?
14:04 shaun *signs up to mailing list, creating even more thunderbird rules*
14:04 paul opac-search? yes
14:04 kados yea that's the one
14:04 paul 9:11
14:04 kados I'm working on the suggest database creation script (documenting it)
14:04 kados I'll commit it as soon as i've finished
14:05 paul shaun : commit is OK, as well as log message. I'll take care of it for 2.2 branch.
14:05 kados it builds db for suggest, spellcheck, and search log
14:05 shaun ok thanks - yay, my first commit on koha :)
14:05 kados congrats shaun
14:05 paul let's have a virtual drink
14:05 kados hehe
14:05 shaun lol
14:06 paul I offer "pastis", the alcohol that all ppl in Marseille drinks
14:06 Ben hihi
14:06 paul hehe, we drink, so Ben arrives, that's it shaun ?
14:07 Ben lol
14:07 Ben I am not an alcohol-induce hallucinate vision
14:07 Ben *induced
14:07 Ben anyway..
14:08 shaun Ben: all are alcohol our belong to you ;)
14:08 kados hehe
14:08 Ben shaun, circulation.tmpl, returns.tmpl and branchtransfers.tmpl please
14:08 shaun waawaawaa - you editing my templates again... what's wrong with the latter two?
14:09 Ben well, I don't actually want, but the labels don't line up with the inputs, and there is a 'messages' box displayed even when there are no messages
14:09 shaun How do I build a directory structure in the style of either the release tarballs or the installed system at /usr/local/koha (for me, anyway) from CVS head?
14:09 Ben circulation.tmpl & returns.tmpl please shaun
14:10 paul shaun : misc/buildrelease
14:10 shaun hang on, signing in to IM
14:10 Ben ok
14:10 shaun ah, brilliant
14:10 Ben what's brilliant
14:11 Ben ?
14:11 shaun paul: shaun : misc/buildrelease
14:11 Ben ah.
14:11 paul to build a tarball release : $koharoot/misc/buildrelease sh script
14:12 shaun isn't it a perl script?
14:12 Ben (slightly)
14:12 paul oups, right.
14:12 paul it's a perl script.
14:12 paul (without the .pl extension, that's why i made the mistake
14:13 Ben shaun, *files please!*
14:14 shaun what's wrong with the current ones? I find it much easier to implement changes at this end if you tell me what's wrong - diffing the files is no good
14:15 Ben *deep breath*
14:15 Ben change the header 'enter borrower... last name' to left-aligned
14:16 shaun paul: it worked - I now have a koha- that I don't know what to do with... :D
14:16 Ben change the spacing between it and the input box to match 'settings' etc
14:16 paul tar xvfz koha-
14:16 Ben and matcvh all the other spacing in that div
14:16 paul ./ to install your version.
14:16 Ben to the settings div
14:17 paul in misc, there is an uninstaller too.
14:17 paul so you can test your packages
14:17 Ben also, there is too much space underneath the settings div
14:18 shaun I don't want it to overwrite current config... I'll stick with 2.2.2 and just modify the templates for now...
14:19 shaun just noticed - /tmp now contains a file called xses-shaun.jEReMy - I was talking to somebody called jeremy today :%
14:20 shaun i'm not ignoring you - i'm merely being silent while doing coursework...
14:21 Ben you're being pretty vocal to paul
14:22 Ben thankyou for doing the autofocus javascript
14:22 shaun can we wait to do this until tomorrow? I will be free, having handed in my coursework, and we will probably have talked to the katipo developers by then.
14:23 Ben they being?
14:24 shaun chris in nz (not katipo), plus rach and si (don't know much about si)
14:24 shaun paul: jooi, how did you become release manager?
14:24 Ben ok
14:24 paul jooi ?
14:25 shaun o... just out of interest
14:25 paul ok, thanks.
14:25 paul I became a release manager because :
14:25 shaun (soz, i go ott with my toflas)
14:25 paul 1- I was highly involved in the project
14:25 paul 2- I candidated to developp what was wanted (& was paid for that)
14:25 paul 3- I applied to be RM ;-)
14:26 paul as ppl were happy with me for 2.0.0, I applied again for 2.2.x
14:26 shaun don't mean to be nosy, but who employs you to develop it?
14:26 paul I could have applied for 2.4 once again, but I hope someone else will come with idea & take the role.
14:26 paul you're not nosy.
14:27 paul nobody employs me. i'm self employed.
14:27 paul but some libraries wanted to add some features to this great tools & launched a RFP.
14:28 shaun if i knew perl, I would probably jump for it - I have the time, most of the time...
14:28 paul then, some libraries came and said "ok, Koha is great, but I can't use it witjhout XXX, who want to develop this for me, for the price I would have to pay for a proprietary ILS"
14:29 paul now I've many customers that want me to install Koha. For the price I charge I have time to develop new features.
14:29 paul and I work with Henri Damien Laurent (nick hdl), at full-time on Koha
14:29 paul you know the story now ;-)
14:30 Ben so we are working by kernel version rules.
14:30 Ben going up in twos
14:30 shaun i c
14:30 shaun so, is 2.3 in existence (is it in english :p )?
14:31 Ben well, I am writing a presentation to give to ODFE soonish, as soon as we have got this general messy revamping sorted, inc. hopefully extracting the code from the argentinians
14:32 shaun btw: Paul, was it you who I told about why we are involved in Koha (about Linux in education)? I have a pic you may want to see
14:32 paul kados & al : do you know why my changes on the wiki don't appear ?
14:32 paul (on my RSS feed i mean)
14:32 kados no ...
14:32 Ben shaun, can I please see the pic as well?
14:33 paul yes, send the address.
14:33 shaun ben, you've seen it; (i think)
14:33 Ben oh, fles
14:33 paul strange, because i've rss feed on april, 9, and 4
14:34 paul shaun : i expected a picture of YOU ;-)
14:34 kados what's this screenshot for?
14:34 shaun being an RHEL clone, it still has the red hat... the interface work (metacity and gtk themes) was done by me based on the clearlooks engine, the icons are RH Bluecurve
14:34 Ben I told owen why we're doing koha
14:35 Ben kados, shaun is making a linux distro taylored for education based on RHEL
14:35 shaun FLES - the Free/Libre Educational System *name is open for debate with ben ;)*
14:35 kados sweet
14:35 Ben *tailored
14:35 shaun this is how we became involved in koha in the first place
14:35 Ben you told me is was free linux... :(
14:35 Ben it
14:35 shaun i didnt tell you that
14:36 shaun you thought of that in your sleep - one night it was FLES, the next morning it was another FLES :p
14:36 shaun wdyt of the screenshot?
14:36 Ben (20:49:37) Shaun: free linux education something.
14:37 shaun focus isn't on linux - the tools might run on windows just as well, after all ;)
14:37 Ben oh well
14:38 Ben anyway, shaun is developing a linux distro for education, including giant-graphics-tablet-syncronised-with-projector support, and some remote control software..
14:40 Ben and we wanted a library system. shaun drew my attention to koha, which I said I was very impressed with, and I asked him to install it. two reinstallations due to shaun buggering it up later, and we had a working ish koha, which we have been improving for a while now
14:40 shaun earlier: "I am the founder of a Linux distro that will be used in primary and secondary schools in the UK - based on RHEL, with lots of things that schools find useful, e.g. vnc based remote control, pre-designed intranet and remote management, and I am including lots of OSS that RHEL does not come with, e.g. DansGuardian for filtering - the obvious choice for the library system was Koha, but we thought the interface had a lot of room for improve
14:40 shaun ment, and so, I am here now."
14:42 Ben and are hoping to install it on our school's server, saving the school €3 600 ($4,800)
14:43 paul_bed ok guys, take care. I go to bed. Then 4 days in Paris then Ouest provence.
14:43 Ben yay..
14:43 paul_bed will be back on monday, 25
14:43 Ben bye paul
14:43 shaun thanks paul, see you later
14:44 shaun[…]ticleID=160900911
14:44 Ben shaun, shall I invite doddy in?
14:44 Ben read it via slashdot ealier
14:44 Ben load of b*******s
14:45 Ben shaun, shall I invite doddy in?
14:45 shaun does doddy spend time on irc? what would he be talking about...
14:45 Ben dunno
14:46 Ben yes or no?
14:46 Ben answer needed now..!
14:47 shaun well, invite him in, but im not available for talking atm
14:52 DoddyUK lo all
14:53 kados hi there
14:54 DoddyUK :)
14:54 DoddyUK hows everyone?
14:55 Ben ok
14:55 Ben kados, this is mike dodd, one of our open source enthusiast colleages
14:55 Ben doddy, kados is a koha dev
14:56 paul_bed paul really go to bed now. Will read irc logs on later...
14:56 Ben bye paul
14:56 Ben brb
14:56 DoddyUK bye
14:58 shaun doddy - are you using xchat, chatzilla or what?
14:59 shaun kados - when do the new zealanders at katipo come online?
15:00 kados anytime now
15:00 shaun ooh
15:00 shaun doddy also comes to the school that we will probably be getting koha to run in, and afaik helps out the techs
15:05 kados great
15:06 shaun the last few days have been hectic and i can't remember this... kados, did you see the templates up at ?
15:07 kados yep they look nice
15:08 kados you can bypass that initial refresh screen with a scriptallias in your virtual host
15:09 kados something like:
15:09 kados ScriptAlias /index.html "/path/to/"
15:09 shaun well, i was thinking of replacing it with a colourful splash screen with the koha logo on, and increasing the refresh time to 3 or 4 seconds
15:09 kados oughta do it
15:11 owen But your librarians will hate having to see it every day ;)
15:12 kados hehe
15:12 shaun i don't know... the ALICE startup is quite painful - takes 3 minutes, on a good day (it could be turned off easily enough - just get the tech to delete the img tag, and reduce the refresh time to 0 - or use kados' method, ScriptAlias)
15:14 shaun talking of which - I was talking to the tech support guy in school, and he said that the entire ALICE database was stored in a few gigs' worth of flatfile... no wonder it's slow...
15:16 shaun *was expecting lols, maybe either my sense of humour is going, or everybody is sleeping...*
15:20 indradg shaun, I was reading up the transcript... just a word of advice abt using RHAT specific graphics in your custom distro
15:21 indradg RHAT specific graphics are copyrighted and yes propietory to RHAT... you can't reuse the shadowman logo
15:21 indradg it violates the RHEL EULA
15:21 indradg you might want to look into that
15:21 shaun im not using red hat logos, just the icons
15:22 indradg ok... you screenshot shows the smallish shadowman logo as the main menu graphics
15:22 shaun wbel, centos, lineox, tao linux etc use the Bluecurve theme, but have replaced all instances of the hat with their own project logos
15:22 indradg yep.. themes are OK
15:22 shaun yes - i said earlier that we will replace that, but we don't have a logo of our own yet
15:22 indradg cool
15:22 shaun (i should start my own irc channel for this...)
15:23 indradg not a bad idea
15:24 shaun know any hosts? i don't like freenode, don't know why...
15:24 shaun does anybody have a need for rpms of koha, that work out of the box for fedora and rhel-based distros?
15:28 shaun well, never mind, because i'm making them anyway for my distro...
15:35 kados good luck with that ;-)
15:35 kados it's quite tricky
15:35 shaun "it's quite tricky" -- how?
15:36 kados well ... try packaging yaz for instance
15:36 shaun see
15:37 shaun they've done it...
15:37 shaun I'm running my koha installation on those rpms on this box, btw
15:39 shaun the only perl module which doesn't have an rpm that i'm aware of is z39.50 - which I can probably achieve by reverse engineering the current source rpms for perl modules, and then writing a specfile with a dependency of yaz...
15:39 kados cool ... well I've got my Koha installs down to 8 mins without an rpm so I never got around to it
15:39 kados you'll need "Event" too IIRC
15:39 shaun what systems are you running?
15:40 kados I've got koha installed on Debian woody and sarge, FC2, 3, RHEL4, and OSX
15:40 shaun iirc? (ive never had a chance to ask 8-( )
15:40 kados or do you mean where ... location?
15:40 shaun no, i meant what distros/OSes
15:40 kados right
15:40 kados IIRC if I recall correctly
15:41 kados I wrote all the install manuals on kohadocs ;-)
15:41 shaun anyway, making an rpm would be nothing compared to making an msi :p
15:42 kados hehe
15:42 indradg i installed Koha on Gentoo.... plan to write an ebuild one of these days
15:42 kados cool
15:42 shaun well, please share the ebuild - i can probably use it to make the specfile, if i dont get there first...
15:42 kados I've never gotten around to it mainly because all the packages Koha relies on as well as Koha itself are in a constant state of flux
15:43 kados and it's user-base isn't exactly wide
15:43 indradg well... package maintanence is an issue
15:43 kados and if you're brave enough to run your own ILS you better know how to put it together
15:43 kados piece by piece
15:43 kados well I differ slightly in my approace
15:43 kados I usually scrap the whole OS when I do an upgrade
15:44 kados approach that is
15:44 kados swap hardware too
15:44 indradg kados, that sounds a bit extreme ;)
15:44 kados that way I get to play around with different distros
15:44 kados it's pretty simple
15:45 kados i just change the IP address of the 'testing' machine to the IP of the 'production'
15:45 shaun you should only have to run emerge -uD world and come back a week later, then have a working operating system - then you have to install koha on it.
15:45 kados I leave the production machine on but unplugged from the network for abotua  week after the upgrade just in case
15:46 kados then I double-check I've got all the data I need from it and start over ...
15:46 indradg cool
15:47 indradg kados, my blogpost
15:47 shaun talking of which: i am getting a new hd tomorrow, and i am moving the current one over to my server, so i can set up an svn repo for the new templates, and host them up all the time, and i wont be randomly deleting chunks of stuff to find a couple megs of disk space any more...
15:47 indradg kados, here is a sample library card ->[…]ages/src-card.jpg
15:48 kados cool
15:48 shaun wow...
15:49 kados indradg: where's your rss?
15:50 kados got it
15:50 kados my blog is at ;-)
15:51 kados I haven't been too active lately with the new company and all
15:51 kados and it's really really slow due to being on an old 486
15:51 indradg as lame as it may sound this is first time that an university in eastern india is going for barcoded library card along with complete barcoding of all the items... and yes it all runs on Koha :D
15:52 kados wow
15:52 kados might as well go with something newer
15:52 kados fingerprinting
15:52 kados or dna analysis ;-)
15:52 kados or rfid
15:52 kados hehe
15:53 kados naw ... cards look good
15:53 indradg kados, this university has issued abt 100 smart cards to students on a test pilot..... but u know what there isnt a single card reader ;)
15:53 kados hehe
15:53 kados that's great
15:54 shaun in our library, we use library cards with barcodes, but for the last 8 years, we haven't had a barcode scanner, and probably will not have one in the forseeable future. I fail to see why.
15:55 indradg the reason being the IS dept and the company which designed those parts did it on Windows... and hold ur breath! their developers dont know how to use a RS-232c reader in Linux
15:55 indradg apparently the card reader doesn't come with a linux driver
15:55 indradg ;)
15:57 shaun (every time somebody issues a book in our library, the librarian has to type two 16 digit strings of numbers and letters, which seems pointless... this time, because everytime you plug the barcode reader in, the computer crashes, reloads the database, and then repeats several times.)
15:57 shaun (and that is on windows ;) )
15:58 indradg so I suggested that they write a user-land driver for kernel 2.6.x... to poll the serio input layer, parse it and re-write the ASCII data to the input layer handler for PS/2 keyboard port... their developers gave me very ugly looks ;)
16:00 indradg also in india, the cost differential matters a lot.. the barcoded card costs abt US 9cents where as a smart card (microprocessor based) costs abt USD 4.5
16:04 shaun hmm, rach and co. seem late - owen said evening...
16:04 chris im here, just working
16:04 owen Well, they've got other business besides Koha
16:05 shaun they always seem to be signed in, but not actually online and talking... i want to talk to rach, as i have quite a few questions
16:06 owen Sure, if you never log off your machine, why not leave irc open?  Makes it easier to catch up on what's been going on.
16:06 chris thats what screen is for
16:06 chris :)
16:06 owen Send an email to Koha-devel with your questions, and she can answer them when she has time
16:07 shaun ok
16:09 indradg chris, i hope u didn't see that last indo-pak match... it went horribly for us :P
16:09 chris luckily i was watching rugby instead
16:09 chris :)
16:09 indradg good :)
16:10 indradg lowest even domestic total :(
16:10 chris eek
16:11 indradg and that too on John Wright's last match as the indian coach
16:11 kados too bad they don't have every item
16:12 indradg kados, does the use of Amazon API call be any commercial agreement?
16:12 chris kados: seen books we like ? (
16:12 kados cool
16:12 chris indradg: sad way to finish up as coach
16:12 kados indradg: you need a developer key and associates membership
16:13 kados see the docs in the module (in HEAD0
16:13 kados HEAD that is
16:13 kados )
16:13 kados :-)
16:13 indradg kados, will do... when I'm less sleepy in the morning ;)
16:13 kados interesting
16:14 chris yep
16:15 kados they have multiple isbns per item too so it may even be better than Amazon
16:17 kados actually it'd be nice to pull that data from lots of places
16:17 kados review, images, ratings, descriptions, everything we can get our hands on
16:17 kados ;-)
16:17 chris the more the better
16:17 kados hehe
16:17 chris i was thinking some patrons might like to be able to write their reviews and books we like would be good for that
16:18 kados right
16:18 rach morning
16:18 kados morning rach
16:18 shaun morning (evening? :p ) rach
16:19 indradg shaun, remember the international date line? ;)
16:19 rach is morning here
16:20 shaun lol, its 10:20 PM here... i'd best be getting ready for 2moz...
16:31 shaun rach: i've been waiting for you to come online for the whole weekend ;) - how is your progress with the logo and interface redesign going? we (ben and i) have a redesign test up and running at , un kohaadmin, pw hexthouse - we have yet to port over all the features of the default koha one, but the main features are there - circulations has been patched most so far
16:31 shaun im not making sense... v. tired...
16:32 shaun it's all in xhtml 1.0 strict
16:34 shaun wdyt?
16:34 kados she'll need the password
16:35 shaun ^ soz, im not forming sentences properly now...
16:35 rach he gave me that
16:36 rach looks good shaun (& ben :-)
16:38 shaun thanks - any suggestions for getting the official logo? have you got access to any non-rendered versions like svg?
16:38 rach but the colours are much improved :-)
16:38 rach yes I can send you that, e-mail me -
16:38 indradg well... i'm off to sleep... cya all
16:38 rach and you'll get one return post
16:38 kados night
16:39 shaun do you prefer vertical nav for <div id="submenu... and below ? i've seen its a part of the other new redesign (the conceptual one, which i have just seen)
16:39 shaun (in the flesh!)
16:39 rach yep - and we have done code for the other design
16:40 owen ...And NPL's :)
16:40 shaun and npl's, yes
16:40 rach um yep I do tend to - we have breadcrumbs on our one I think, and it gets a bit stripey otherwise :-)
16:41 rach I like your white box top right
16:42 shaun that was done last thursday - for four hours, I was sitting here with bluefish and firefox open - ben was on IM saying "a little to the right", "make that text a little bit darker", "slightly less left padding" and various other things about the header...
16:43 rach :-)
16:43 rach as you do
16:44 shaun i'm not sure how I could implement vertical nav into our design...
16:45 rach ah well, you'll have to stick with horizontal then
16:45 rach are you doing this for a particular library?
16:45 shaun owen: it's an html/css/other various web languages editor with helpers eg tag completion
16:46 owen Yeah, looking at screenshots now.  The lack of a good editor was one of the things that kept me from moving to a Linux desktop at work
16:47 shaun i used to use DW - i find bluefish and the GIMP are quite adequate for any design work I want to do - i'm out of my wysiwyg stage now...
16:47 owen Yeah, I can't even use DW now if I try.
16:48 shaun you have missed a lot ;) - i'm doing it because i'm the founder of a project to build a linux distro for use in the education environment. obviously, secondary schools need some form of free libre library automation system, and koha seemed the most logical choice ;)
16:50 rach excellent
16:50 shaun we thought there was a lot of room for improvement in the default template, and i'm primarily a web *coder* (ben...) and a designer, so i thought I could help.
16:51 rach great
16:51 rach you won't find any argument about that here
16:51 rach personally I'm not very into the "boxes" look
16:52 kados msg chris my how things have changed
16:52 owen I think the more the merrier is the way to go with templates, but it is a LOT of work to keep up with updates.  It's important that we get template authors to commit themselves to sticking with it.
16:52 rach
16:52 kados oops ... /me hates when that happens
16:52 rach we did this for 2.0
16:52 rach and have people using that
16:53 kados remember how many templates we had for 1.2?
16:53 rach we did a quick makeover on 2.2 for going to sydney, which is the bison version
16:53 kados there were like 6 or seven at one point
16:53 rach yep, they are hard work to keep up to date
16:53 kados yep
16:53 chris it has some *issues* tho
16:53 rach yes it does
16:53 chris which is why its not been committed yet
16:53 kados LibLime's templates aren't ready for commmitment yet ... we're still working with a modified version of NPL
16:53 shaun what are the issues?
16:53 kados for our demos
16:54 rach well you have to make sure that they do actually work :-)
16:54 chris bugs in the templates
16:54 kados mainly just HTML/CSS problems in IE for us
16:54 chris some of the html ppl got a little overzealous
16:54 chris and changed some of the TMPL_VAR bits .. or removed them
16:54 kados hehe
16:54 chris tends to go badly :)
16:54 rach mad buggers - did they
16:54 kados what the heck are those things ... get them outa here ;-)
16:54 owen :D
16:55 kados this is going to be CLEAN html ;-)
16:55 rach doing one set of templates is easy
16:55 rach redoing them every time a new feature is added less so
16:56 kados yep ... it's a pain
16:56 rach hence we tend to do them for particular clients at a particular point in time, if they are geting mods as well
16:56 kados there must be a better way
16:56 owen Sometimes I find it's easier to re-do a particular template from scratch rather than try to puzzle out the diff
16:56 rach you can do a lot with the CSS
16:56 shaun separate content from presentation and keep it modular ;)
16:56 kados yea ... great in theory
16:56 kados but hard in practice
16:56 owen Yeah, but what if your idea of modular isn't the same as the next guy's?
16:57 rach but some of the things that *I* think are wrong with any given "page" or module, are say the architecture of the page
16:57 rach rather than just the colour
16:57 kados and remmeber that the order of the html actually does limit your use of the css
16:57 rach[…].pl?type=intranet
16:57 rach is a great example
16:57 kados user/pass?
16:57 rach of a page taht I think has some architectural problems
16:57 rach erm
16:57 rach it was up a bit - kohaadmin
16:58 shaun kohaadmin, hexthouse
16:58 rach hexthouse
16:58 owen Yeah, those long forms are a pain.
16:58 kados how wicken of you
16:58 kados ;-)
16:59 owen (shaun -- I find this page has a little too much white space, by the way)
16:59 shaun i haven't been into catalogue yet - hence most things /are/ broken ;)
17:00 rach ah so what's a bit you have?
17:00 shaun for some reason, all of the fields are in <p>s, and so there is unnecessary padding
17:00 shaun circulation
17:00 shaun | i will be changing them all over to plain labels, within divs tomorrow
17:00 shaun lol
17:00 kados just define <p> in your css
17:01 kados without padding
17:01 shaun *shaun realises it is 11:00, and he really needs to finish off this work for tomorrow*
17:01 kados IMO, in some cases, <p>s are better for older browser support
17:01 shaun i could, but i'm touching up the html/templates anyway tomorrow
17:03 shaun well, rach (or chris, can't remember) said that it's best to keep with mozilla-based browsers, as the librarians probably won't be using IE - and the chance of somebody using something like IE4, NS6 or some other ridiculously underused browser as their library terminal is minimal...
17:03 rach :-)
17:03 rach not really
17:03 chris i was saying the opac needs to be careful
17:03 rach it should at least work in IE
17:03 kados that may be true of the intranet
17:03 shaun it was chris then...
17:04 kados but imo the opac should work in every browser
17:04 chris but for our clients the intranet should work best in mozilla
17:04 rach and the OPAC must work in IE i
17:04 kados our's works in the original web browser ;-)
17:04 chris and if that means it looks a little poxy for IE .. serves them right
17:05 shaun the opac is much less complicated... go firefox, when it comes to providing a decent "desktop client" for a koha system, imo
17:05 chris lots of opacs are open to the world
17:05 chris so it needs to work in everything
17:05 kados the PINES Evergreen folks are going with a firefox extension for their intranet interface btw
17:05 rach you have to work in everything for the OPAC, even older IE etc
17:05 shaun any browser which supports forms, inputs and divs should not break the opac...
17:08 rach well all power to you shaun
17:08 rach look forward to seeing the finished product
17:08 kados ditto
17:09 shaun by hiding the css through @import, the older browsers are kept out anyway, and see the page without css - so then you only need to worry about NS6/7 and IE5+ - is it worth going to the time and effort to support "picky" interface features for pre-IE5, and pre-NS6 ?
17:09 shaun talking about opac, there
17:10 kados my perspective is that most of my potential clients are not computer savvy
17:11 rach none of my clients are computer savvy :-)
17:11 rach if they were they wouldn't need us
17:11 kados so if they see a weird opac because they have an older browser
17:11 kados the're not going to realize it's their fault
17:11 rach but if you're doing this for the DIY koha folks that's all good
17:11 shaun (i dont like making a decision like that - anybody got any apache logs for the client data?)
17:11 rach ?
17:11 rach you'd have to get that on a per client basis
17:12 shaun soz, by client i meant browser and platform
17:12 rach the stats for us here in NZ will be different to you in UK (? I think that's where you're from?) or the US or Uganda
17:12 kados I'd rather take the time to build a backwards-compliant interface so it looks decent even on their box ;-)
17:12 kados I'll tell you that at NPLS over 50% of our queries are outside the library
17:13 kados on the opac that is
17:13 kados don't have browser stats handy
17:13 kados I was actually surprised at that
17:13 kados I figured more people came to the library and THEN did their search
17:13 kados but most of our folks check first to se if we have something
17:14 shaun i would expect that too, but how many people are using IE4 or NS4? - I don't know what the push is like in NZ, but people in the UK are constantly being told about upgrading their browser etc...)
17:15 kados I have some browser stats I used for evaluating my website ... let me see if I can pull them
17:16 kados[…]rowsers_stats.asp
17:16 kados from a marketing friend:
17:16 shaun well, a website's stats would really be different again... e.g. my site receives 60% ff, 30% IE, and 10% script kiddies trying to hack me, while another site on the same server gets about 93% IE, and the rest Safari...
17:16 kados Here is some data.  I can tell you that our Urchin data
17:16 kados (for - we have 4% usage of Firefox and 1.5% of our visitors
17:16 kados are Netscape, and  85% are IE - we have about 6MM uniques a month so I would
17:16 kados think that is decent sample size.  Of the 1.5%, 2% are on Netscape 6.  All
17:16 kados others are Netscape 7 to 7.2.
17:17 shaun http://www.webopac.plymouth.go[…]sh?enqtype=SEARCH -- where i live's OPAC - this degrades gracefully, but I wouldn't like to see it without non-CSS formatting
17:18 kados shaun do you have the web developer plugin for FF?
17:18 kados it's a must have
17:18 shaun which would that be? i have editcss and tidy...
17:19 kados[…]fox/webdeveloper/
17:19 shaun i think i tried web developer before - i found it annoying
17:20 shaun yes, this is the same one.
17:22 shaun going to bed now, see you tomorrow... the test site is going down btw, it is on this box
17:22 kados I use the outline feature quite often
17:22 kados cao ...
17:23 shaun what is cao?
17:26 shaun bye
21:21 kados chris still around?
21:21 kados have you seen this:
21:21 kados
21:21 kados it's damn fast!
21:22 chris yeah its pretty nice
21:23 chris coupling it with koha would be good, using it to handle digital documents
21:23 kados I"m wondering if we can skip the whole process of redesigning our search and just integrate CDS
21:24 chris hmm probably be more work
21:25 chris youd have to redesign acquisitions and circulation
21:26 chris its more like greenstone than it is koha
21:28 chris but it certainly wouldnt hurt to look at how they do their search
21:29 chris its gonna be faster than ours, because its only searching the bibliographical data
21:30 kados and ours is searching holdings data too?
21:31 chris and items data
21:31 kados right
21:31 chris ie, this is for digital data... u dont have the concept of items
21:31 chris but maybe for speed we need to do that
21:31 kados paul found a major flaw with my idea: you can't search using phrases
21:32 kados hmmm
21:32 chris just search the biblio data
21:32 kados well we could have a single table with all the results data pre-populated
21:32 chris but then u cant restarict by branch etc
21:32 chris -a
21:32 kados I dunno ... I'm not clear on how to do it
21:33 kados in my "high perform mysql book' it says that sorting searches often causes slowness
21:33 chris yep
21:34 chris its the nature of the searches we are trying to do
21:34 kados if we could have the table auto organized by title and auto-populated we might be able to do the whole search in a single query
21:34 chris if ppl knew the titles ofthe books
21:34 chris and typed all of them, we could do an exact search and bang itd be super fast
21:34 kados yea
21:34 chris its because we have to do like searches
21:35 kados in fact, we shouhld allow that kind of search for advanced users
21:35 chris we used to
21:35 kados with handling of ""
21:35 chris it was called exact search
21:35 kados yea I know ;-)
21:35 chris and rosa wants it back
21:35 kados so do I
21:35 chris its one of the reasons they are still using 1.2.3
21:36 chris yep, ill put it back when i get a chance
21:36 kados is there a fear of many seperate search indexes for different searches?
21:36 chris the only thing is keeping them up to date
21:36 kados ahh
21:36 kados and real-time is pretty important for the holdings data
21:36 kados hmmm
21:36 chris so acquisitions/cataloguing needs to make sure it updates everything
21:36 kados right
21:37 chris only one thing worse than slow searches
21:37 kados and that could causes slowness on that side ... sigh
21:37 chris and thats wrong searches
21:37 kados right
21:37 chris u know what
21:37 chris we really should have an irc brainstorm
21:37 kados what
21:38 kados yea that sounds good
21:38 chris invite anyone who is interested
21:38 kados haven't had one in a while
21:38 chris and have a chat about 2.4 searching
21:38 kados that'd be great
21:38 chris everyone can bring along some ideas and we can natter and see what comes out of it
21:39 chris collectively we must be smart enough to come up with some good plans :)
21:39 kados it's too bad mysql doesn't have more complex data structures internally
21:39 kados like perl
21:39 chris ah well it kinda does
21:39 kados you could do some really neat stufff
21:39 chris i really think we need to look at using the newer mysql features
21:40 chris like stored procedures
21:40 kados ohh that looks nice
21:40 chris[…]edure-syntax.html
21:41 kados yep I'm there
21:41 chris and cursors
21:42 kados what's the advantace of cursors?
21:42 kados advantage
21:45 chris ok, currently our best case scenario
21:46 chris we do some query with a limit something
21:46 chris mysql hands us back 10 results or so
21:46 chris then we call it again
21:46 chris to get the next 20 say
21:46 chris next 10 even
21:47 chris so the query gets executed twice, or 3 times etc
21:47 chris now thats the best case
21:47 chris worse case is our query is some complicated we have to break it into 3 separate queries
21:47 chris then use perl to combine the results
21:47 chris and return some number
21:48 chris ie we run three queries, mysql returns all the results for all of them
21:48 chris and then if we want page 2
21:48 chris we do the same again
21:48 chris make sense so far?
21:48 chris with a stored procedure and a cursor
21:49 chris we define our complicated set of queries in mysql
21:49 chris and the cursor allows us to run it once
21:49 chris and then step thru them
21:51 chris persistence of results
21:51 chris between cgi calls
21:51 chris at least i think thats what they do  :)
21:52 chris the other thing that will win us speed, is mod_perl
21:54 chris but i best get back to work :)
22:27 kados right ... sorry I was responding to a LibLime web inquiry (second one today!)
22:28 kados NPL is running mod_perl and Apache::DBI
22:37 indradg kados, what kind of speed gains do u see with mod_perl?
22:41 kados I didn't notice any ;-)
22:41 kados the only noticable speed gains come with a well configured my.cnf
22:41 kados and mysql version 4.0 or greater
22:42 kados (cause of query cache)
22:42 kados which was essential for NPL
22:42 kados server load goes down by about 1000% for us
22:42 indradg hmmm
22:43 indradg i use mysql 4.x anyway... for proper utf-8 support
22:44 chris you should win a big performance without perl starting and stopping and persistent dbi connections
22:51 chris eeeww
22:52 chris im getting horrible performance on my net connection at the moment
22:53 kados well I notice most perf gains from mysql configuration ...
22:54 chris yep that will win you the big swings
22:54 chris but everything should run faster under mod_perl
22:54 kados and since I have always done that part last it's prolly why I don't notice any difference with the other changes
22:59 indradg chris, I'm a perl newbie... so perhaps this is a newbie question... but has anyone tried to use perlcc with koha?
22:59 chris not that im aware of
22:59 chris might be something to try out some time
22:59 indradg i c
23:00 chris The code generated in this way is not guaranteed to work. The whole codegen suite ("perlcc" included) should be con-sidered very experimental. Use for production purposes is strongly discouraged.
23:00 chris but theres no harm in trying
23:00 indradg ok
23:12 indradg gnite
23:13 chris night
11:24 owen Hi tim, long time no see
11:26 tim Yeah.  I had a lot of other stuff to do.  Now I forgot most of what I learned before.  Stupid short memory.
11:26 owen Yeah, I know what you mean.
11:27 owen I get that every time I decide I'm going to learn Flash again.
11:29 tim I'm trying to get current item status moved to Koha.  The current system doesn't export a borrowernumber or itemnumber.  Just the barcodes.
11:30 tim I'm hoping there's a MySQL query that could handle it, but so far I'm not having any luck.
11:30 owen circ data at all?
11:32 tim Circ data, but I need a way to get borrowernumbers and itemnumbers into issues when the old system uses the barcode numbers instead.
11:33 owen Oh, so the old system uses patron barcode and item barcode
11:33 tim Yup.
11:34 owen It sounds like a good Perl script would do the trick.  In what format is the old data in?
11:35 tim I have all of the old stuff in the mysql test database now.  It exported to dbf and I converted it.
11:37 tim So far I've been able to convert everything but the marc records using mysql.
11:37 owen So does your new Koha database have complete borrower and biblio/item data?
11:37 tim Yup.  Got that much done.
11:38 tim At least it looks like it's done.
11:38 tim I hope
11:38 owen If you were able to use a script to do the processing, you could query the old data, loop over the results, and for each row query your new Koha database for borrower and item number, and insert as you go.
11:38 owen ...theoretically.
11:39 tim I just noticed the topic is Koha in non-public libraries.  Looks like we're livin' on the edge here with all this rule breaking.
11:41 tim Yeah.  That's why I've been checking into trying to get things done with mysql.  I'm learning both mysql and perl, so using only one makes things easier.
11:41 tim sometimes
11:50 tim I like that one.

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