IRC log for #koha, 2005-04-19

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
16:13 rach morning
18:40 rach morning
22:47 indradg rach, welcome back
22:48 rach cheer
22:48 rach s
00:19 rachel :-)
01:20 hdl hi
02:54 paul coucou hdl
03:11 rach bonjour paul
03:12 paul hi rach.
03:12 paul not in bed yet ?
03:12 rach nope few hours to go yet
03:12 paul (koha-fr is down and the provider is quiet since friday :-( )
03:12 rach we got our car broken into so i'm busy cancelling my visa etc, befrore heading to the police station
03:12 rach might be a long nite
03:13 paul bad news for you.
03:13 paul good luck.
03:14 rach thanks
08:11 kados paul:  welcome home ;-)
08:11 paul hi joshua
08:12 paul (writing on the wiki for a "Koha for big libraries" DB modifs now)
08:12 paul great !
08:12 kados have you had a chance to think about a Koha consortium module?
08:12 kados cool
08:12 paul consortium module ?
08:13 paul (are you changes to HEAD in default templates ?)
08:13 kados for groups of libraries that want to share Koha but aren't in a system
08:13 paul ok, I remember
08:13 paul no, I didn't yet.
08:13 kados paul: probably I can do changes in npl and default templates
08:13 kados I have had contact from three other 'consoftia' that are interested in Koha
08:13 paul that would be great (at least for default)
08:14 paul i'll try to give this some thoughts.
08:14 kados cool
08:14 paul ask me again on next monday if i'm silent
08:14 kados how was your trip home?
08:14 kados (are you over the jet lag? ;-))
08:15 paul a good news (for hdl too...) : 2 new contracts confirmed : IPT (15 000 biblios, migration from another ILS) and Saint Germain sur Morin (new install)
08:15 paul my trip was not really nice...
08:15 paul i could'nt be on aisle as in paris => detroit, so I could not really sleep
08:16 paul 2nd, the girl in Columbus airport told me to get my luggage in Paris before taking the plane for marseille, for customs.
08:17 paul except that in France, you have to stop to customs if you have something to declare. Otherwise, you just pass through. So the luggages pass also.
08:17 paul I've waited 1hour for a luggage that was already in Marseille.
08:17 paul so I missed the aircraft & had to wait 2 more hours for the next one.
08:17 paul (and finally get my luggage in Marseille without trouble)
08:21 kados sounds like a real drag
08:23 kados paul: do you know if UNIMARC stores record copyright dates as c2004 instead of 2004?
08:24 kados this seem to be the 'right' way to do it in MARC21 and it breaks searches
08:44 paul kados : iirc, copyright in UNIMARC can be writte with a letter or without.
08:44 paul (altough i haven't seen c2004 for instance)
08:44 paul and you're right, i probably breaks searches...
08:45 kados i had an idea about marc_words btw
08:45 kados we have marc_words table but slightly different than your idea
08:45 kados instead of an array of CSV itemnumbers we have a 'word id'
08:46 kados and another table with:
08:46 kados wordid, itemnumber, titlesort, authorsort, allsearchrestltsdata
08:46 kados so for searches we only need to do two queries:
08:47 kados one to get the 'wordid'
08:47 kados and one to grab EVERYTHING else for display
08:47 kados what do you think?
08:50 paul explain your idea here :
08:50 paul[…]=KohaRoadmap2.2.x
08:54 kados ok
09:13 kados paul: ok ... I explained it there ... but perhaps not well ... let me know what you think (or if you don't understand it)
09:18 paul joshua : i don't understand where you gain perfs with your idea. I probably don't understand it well.
09:18 paul (kados i mean. to beep you  ;-) )
09:41 kados ok
09:41 kados I probably didn't explain it well
09:42 kados so right no we do many queries to populate the various opac variable for search results display
09:42 kados for title
09:42 kados subtitle
09:42 kados branch status
09:42 kados etc.
09:42 kados probably about 12 - 14 queries for each item displayed
09:42 kados with my idea we only have two queries 'total'
09:43 kados one grabs the 'wordid'
09:43 kados and one grabs all the rest of the information from a seperate table indexed by 'wordid'
09:45 kados so this second table has columns: 'wordid' 'bibid' 'title' 'subtitle' 'itemtype' 'copyrightdate' 'other item info' 'call number, etc' 'copies' 'availability'
09:45 kados it could also have 'sortby' columns
09:45 kados though this may be redundent ...
09:46 kados maybe we have 'title' and 'titledisplay' where 'title' is title ~= s/the, a, an, etc.//;
09:47 kados and 'titledisplay' is the one we display on the search results page
09:47 kados paul:  does this make more sense? (I hope)
09:48 paul yes but no.
09:48 paul you solve the problem of showing results, but not the problem of selecting what are results
09:49 kados well ... let me explain that better
09:49 paul thus, your suggestion may be useful for the 2nd part of a search.
09:49 kados so we do an initial query:
09:49 kados select 'wordid' from marc-words where word = 'somthing%'
09:49 kados this is really fast ... only one row
09:49 kados or maybe two or three max
09:50 kados (we should pull out tagsubfield too)
09:50 kados then ...
09:50 kados select 'all the display stuff' from marc_words_index where wordid = 'wordid';
09:51 kados maybe if we designed it well enough we could even do everything in a single query using join
09:51 kados paul: does that make more sense?
09:51 paul yes but no.
09:52 kados :-)
09:52 paul how do you manage a search on 2 words.
09:52 kados so ...
09:52 paul the 1st being used 10 000 times, the 2nd 15 000
09:52 kados right
09:52 paul (with 10 results for both)
09:52 kados you merge where they match if it's an AND search
09:55 kados select 'wordid', 'tagsubfield' from marc_words where word='something1%' and word='something2%'
09:55 kados this would only pull out the results from both right?
09:55 kados and we still only have two queries
09:56 kados (sorting could be done here too)
09:56 paul (on phone)
09:56 kados k
10:02 paul hi owen
10:02 owen Hi paul.
10:02 owen Have you gotten caught up after your trip?
10:05 kados hey owen
10:05 paul kados i'm back.
10:05 kados cool
10:05 kados what video chat program do you use?
10:05 paul your request would not work, because word can't be something1 AND something2
10:06 paul gnomemeeting
10:06 kados ok
10:06 kados ahh you're right ...
10:06 paul with your structure you need to do what we already do : a join on marc_words as m1 and marc_words as m2
10:07 kados yep
10:07 kados hmmm...
10:07 paul that requires reading of both 10 000 and 15 000 lines
10:09 kados paul can you chat on AIM?
10:09 paul what tool should I use on my mandrake ?
10:09 kados not sure ... I"m on OSX today ;-)
10:09 paul kopete should be the tool.
10:09 kados maybe gaim?
10:10 kados my aim screen name is
10:11 kados I'm in a coffee house so there is some ambiant noise ... but I'd like to try this out ;-)
10:13 kados if enough of us get webcams we could have Koha video conferences ;-)
10:13 kados that would be swell ;-)
10:17 paul mmm... how to create an accound on aim ?
10:18 kados not sure ... maybe
10:20 kados paul: here's the registration page:
10:20 kados[…]2ZIsTVJYAAA%3D%3D
10:20 kados or something like that ;-)
10:21 owen Nice that they keep it simple.
10:25 paul mmm... can't find how to speak with microphone on gaim.
10:25 paul (& no time to dig more)
10:25 kados np ;-)
10:25 kados maybe tomorrow
10:25 paul (maybe we will delay a few days until you have gnome meeting)
10:26 kados ok
10:30 shaun hi
10:30 kados hi there shaun
10:30 owen Hi shaun
10:31 shaun I have done some fixes in circulation - url and un/pw combination are still and kohaadmin/hexthouse
10:32 shaun It appears that the branch and printer were broken in returns - I have fixed this.
10:32 shaun are Paul or Rach on at the moment?
10:32 paul I am here
10:32 owen What do you mean about branch and printer being broken?
10:32 paul (on phone, but here)
10:33 shaun hang on a moment, I'm digging out the log...
10:36 shaun <b>Branch:</b> <!-- TMPL_VAR NAME="branchname" -->,
10:36 shaun <b>Printer:</b> <!-- TMPL_VAR NAME="printername" -->
10:36 shaun were supposed to read:
10:36 shaun <b>Branch:</b> <!-- TMPL_VAR NAME="genbrname" -->,
10:36 shaun <b>Printer:</b> <!-- TMPL_VAR NAME="genprname" -->
10:36 shaun ...thus, in the released version of 2.2.2, the branch and printer were not displayed on returns
10:41 owen You're right, it isn't showing up is it?  (We don't show that in our template, so I never noticed it)
10:44 owen Of course still has the wrong permissions... >:(
10:47 shaun Also: I have moved the branch and printer items into a .bloc25, underneath all the other content, set up the focusOnFirst() script on all of the circulation pages, and made some <h2>s into <h3>s, as well as moving it all to xhtml 1.0 strict...
10:47 shaun Is that my fault, or Koha behaviour?
10:48 owen The wrong permissions?  There's a bug in the install (?) that sets the wrong permissions for that script.
10:48 owen rach won't be in for another 3 or 4 hours
10:49 owen the way
10:50 owen Have you gotten any biblio data into your database yet?
10:51 shaun ok (evening starts at 4 for me ;) )
10:51 shaun no - i have just come across some sample data (importing now, hopefully)
10:52 owen It'd be nice if you could sort IRC users by time zone :)
10:52 shaun yes...
10:53 shaun umm... how do I import this data into mysql on the command line? (sampledata-1.2.gz)
10:54 kados actually that data isn't really going to work
10:54 kados it's for Koha version 1.2
10:55 shaun ah... is there any other data I can get hold of?
10:56 kados maybe ... give me a sec
10:56 shaun thanks
10:56 kados ok ... here's some sample borrowers data:
10:57 kados
10:57 shaun we're alright for borrower data - it's book data that I can't get hold of
10:57 kados k... just a sec
10:58 kados[…]ha/export/
10:58 kados start with biblio 3000
10:58 kados end with biblio 4000
10:58 kados it'll come out as ''
10:59 shaun 0 bytes...
10:59 kados you can import it with bulkmarcimport in misc/migration_tools
10:59 kados ok ... try just exporting everything ;-)
10:59 kados leave both field blank
11:00 shaun thats better (big, big file...)
11:00 shaun 2.1 mb - importing now...
11:00 kados right
11:01 kados so it actually does export items contrary to the message ;-)
11:04 shaun "you can import it with bulkmarcimport in misc/migration_tools" -- how?
11:04 owen shaun, have you seen this site before?
11:04 owen It tells me that the koha logo is probably some variant of Linotype Centennial
11:05 owen (not one I have)
11:05 shaun thanks - *finds font*
11:10 paul shaun, just a question : did you explain your interest to Koha somewhere ? Not to judge if we should help you, just to know ;-)
11:10 shaun Well, I think Ben sent an email to Owen about it
11:11 paul & owen kept it for himslef ;-)
11:12 owen Ben sent an email to the Koha-Devel list "New Interface & Other Work" on Tuesday April 12
11:12 owen And I responded on list.
11:13 shaun I am the founder of a Linux distro that will be used in primary and secondary schools in the UK - based on RHEL, with lots of things that schools find useful, e.g. vnc based remote control, pre-designed intranet and remote management, and I am including lots of OSS that RHEL does not come with, e.g. DansGuardian for filtering - the obvious choice for the library system was Koha, but we thought the interface had a lot of room for improvement, and
11:13 shaun so I am here now ;)
11:13 paul ok, I hadn't read this mail yet.
11:13 owen shaun, sounds like you might want to approach the koha interface from the point of view specifically of the school library
11:14 owen Maybe there are ways to tailor your templates to that user?
11:15 paul ok, shaun, you can do whatever you want on HEAD branch of CVS. We will se later if your temlpates have to become the default one.
11:15 paul send bugfixes on HEAD too, with an explicite title for your CVS commit.
11:15 paul i'll take care of them for 2.2 where applicable
11:15 shaun yes - as well as contributing the templates we make, I will be editing them to make it more friendly for school libraries (I am also unsure about how to achieve it, but I have been talking with the head librarian a lot about it)
11:15 paul (as 2.2 Release Maintainer)
11:16 kados shaun: keep me posted on your ideas
11:16 kados I'd like to know what the special needs of a school library are
11:17 shaun Would it be better for our templates to be implemented as default from 2.3/2.4 (not sure if you use the even=stable, odd=unstable) - to maintain continuity and backward-compatibility if nothing else, even though the changes have nothing to do with the back end in mysql/perl
11:18 shaun *looses question mark: ?
11:18 paul (about odd/even : you're right)
11:18 owen don't worry about what's going to be default and what won't...just get them done and we'll have a discussion together with the rest of the developers
11:18 shaun ok
11:18 paul anyway, you're right.
11:19 paul and i'm wondering if we should not have 2 different templates schemes : one for public libraries
11:19 paul and one for academic ones.
11:19 shaun I have seen some things where a theme is chosen by a symlink to the theme's codename - e.g.
11:19 paul my customers have very differents needs usually depending on public/academic.
11:20 shaun /usr/local/koha/intranet/ht​docs/intranet-tmpl/default is actually a symlink to, say /usr/local/koha/intranet/htdocs/intranet-tmpl/npl or .../koha, (if koha will be the name of the default template when it is adopted), or .../school
11:21 paul mmm... didn't you saw Koha >> parameters >> systempreferences >> opactheme
11:21 shaun ...makes for easy configuration at install time, but the librarian cannot change the theme from windows/ie - our librarian wouldn't take well to telnet ;)
11:22 shaun I was talking about the intranet, not opac
11:23 paul 'template' systempref is your friend then ;-)
11:24 shaun oops - didn't see that...
11:25 Ben hihi
11:26 kados hi Ben
11:26 shaun where are the templates registered (eg `mkdir test` in /intranet/htdocs/intranet-tmpl does not update the list of themes - it is still default and npl)
11:26 shaun hi ben
11:26 owen kados, I'm sure there are things a school library needs that a public one doesn't, and vice-versa
11:27 owen I'm sure borrower management is much different if you're dealing with school years and limited year-spans
11:27 shaun (ben and I were thinking about opening times - somebody must not be fined when the library is not open, i.e. on weekends)
11:27 Ben owen, I concur - ODFE will require something which shows form/year
11:27 kados yea ... we've thought about that too
11:27 owen Right...that's consistent with all libraries, but school libraries will have to deal with more closings, so it's more important
11:27 paul shaun : the good news : opening times is already developped
11:27 owen Ben, exactly.
11:28 owen ...and the bad news...
11:28 Ben ODFE being Our Dear Friend Eunice
11:28 paul the bad news : we can't get the code from the guy who wrote it (in Argentina)
11:28 kados :-)
11:28 Ben yes, but the argentinians won't give it to us
11:28 owen :(
11:28 paul why ben ?
11:28 kados paul: do you have emiliano's email address? I'll write him an e-mail requesting it
11:28 Ben I don't know; you were the one who told me
11:28 paul shaun : you must also create a /en directory in you mkdir.
11:29 owen I think I mentioned it on Saturday, Ben
11:29 Ben whoever
11:29 Ben :)
11:29 shaun take a look at our implementation - we used the year the student joined the school - e.g. 01 for me, which is called "Year 10"
11:29 paul Ben/ shaun : emiliano, from Argentina sended me a word file with what they did
11:29 paul drop your mail address here if you want it.
11:30 shaun - thanks
11:30 Ben paul, genial!
11:30 owen The borrowers table will have to be expanded to include more school-related data
11:30 paul those features are already in Argentina
11:30 paul (owen, do you want the paper too ?)
11:30 paul (or do you already have it ?)
11:31 owen Please send it again.  I'm not sure.
11:31 owen Thanks
11:31 Ben unfortunately, perl is not my best subject, but I do know what works visually/ergonomically
11:31 Ben etc
11:31 shaun[…]633/win-t1/91068/ - definitely, type in koha
11:31 paul (540kb mail sent)
11:32 Ben shaun, the K is mismatched
11:32 shaun *router flashes wildly* - i love running my own mail server
11:32 kados hehe
11:32 shaun ben: how?
11:32 shaun see
11:33 Ben shaun, we are suffering from 5 years worth of development..
11:33 shaun ???
11:33 Ben the logo in the background image of the intranet homepage of version 1 is in bodomi mt, honest..
11:33 paul kados : about emiliano.
11:33 paul the last mail I recieved (march, 12) said :
11:33 paul my question : Could you please tell us what are your plans at the moment ? do you still expect to be able to commit your modifs toofficial CVS ? do you have a date ?
11:34 paul The answer :
11:34 paul No, unfortunately, no. At 20th April week we have an official presentation at National Ministry Of Education for national universities libraries. After that meeting and upon librarians oppinion, perhaps they will request to every university funding for implement and adopt the software into their libraries. In this meeting I will insist over the importance in contributing to the original development project, as the way for ensuring the maintanance
11:34 paul and growing of the software. In every case our development team will exist for more 6 months (I hope) and one boy will be dedicated to local Koha's requirements for the Physic Library at UNLP (In background perhaps he could contribute) and the other will be dedicated to digital resources discoveries and making some kind of meta searching for Physics resources. This is the second instance of this project.
11:34 paul so, maybe it's worth 2-3 days delaying bugging him ;-)
11:34 Ben :)
11:34 kados right
11:34 owen Good point paul
11:35 paul thanks.
11:39 paul Being impertinent is not a problem. If you don't forget that WE are Koha, and YOU are the newbie (so you don't know our 5 years history) ;-)
11:39 Ben you do all realise that the argentinians are cutting it very thin with the GPL
11:39 Ben ?
11:39 paul Not at all.
11:39 kados mmm ... not really
11:39 shaun they don't have to release it under GPL
11:39 paul GPL says : you must give your customer the code & freedom to redistribute it.
11:39 paul but ...
11:40 paul they have NO customers !
11:40 paul it's only for their internal use !
11:40 kados right
11:40 Ben fine
11:40 paul the GPL don't say "give back your code". Even if it's highly most efficient for everybody !
11:40 shaun also - if this is a module, the module is not subject to the terms of the GPL unless it includes code from Koha, or another GPL project
11:40 Ben yes, fine; no need to rub it in
11:41 Ben brb, dinner
11:41 owen Ben, they're not rubbing it in, they're /explaining/
11:41 owen It's how we all learn.
11:41 shaun (sorry ben, but the way you think my plan to build a linux distro based on the RHEL source was piracy was most entertaining to me)
11:42 paul (Ben : don't forget i'm not native english. Sometimes my words have not the same meaning in french & in english. And don't forget i sometimes don't understand english perfectly too)
11:43 paul (for example : not sure to understand "rubbing", even if I think)
11:45 shaun document: ooh, nice - where have the screenshots been taken from, and is this in English yet?
11:45 kados paul: 'rubbing it in' is an idiom ... when I hear it it reminds me of a school yard fights where the bully 'rubs' something into the bullied's face ;-)
11:46 owen shaun, that's one of the problems--none of it is in english
11:46 owen Not even the script and template variables
11:46 paul in fact, that's the main problem !!!
11:46 shaun what language is it in?
11:46 kados spanish I think
11:46 paul otherwise, they could contribute the code easily
11:47 paul right kados. es_AR (argentina english)
11:47 paul & it's hardcoded it seems (i mean : not a translation from english)
11:47 kados es is espanole right?
11:47 shaun *fails to see logic*
11:47 paul yep
11:48 paul shaun : maybe someone not knowing enough how to be efficient with OSS
11:48 paul maybe a developper that is not fluent enough in english
11:48 paul (or think he is not)
11:48 paul the question is just : how to solve the problem & get the code now !
11:50 shaun do you think they will gpl it?
11:50 paul that's not a problem of gpl'ing it.
11:50 paul that's a problem of integrating it properly in official CVS.
11:50 paul if we request a tar.gz from their code, they'll send it for sure.
11:50 paul but it would be unuseable !
11:51 shaun because it's in spanish (argentina)?
11:51 paul not only
11:51 paul because we would not know all what they did
11:52 paul & reverse engineering would be a pain
11:52 shaun oh right, I understand now
11:52 paul (unless YOU volunteer :-D :-D )
11:52 shaun oh, no...
11:52 paul ;-)
11:52 owen We're sorely lacking in spanish-speaking programmers
11:53 paul owen : Ineo has one they said some weeks later
11:53 shaun I really have to learn perl properly - I am a php person really | I know a little spanish, and I know somebody (non-programmer) who knows a lot more
11:53 owen I would really take a spanish- and Perl-speaking expert to do reverse engineering
11:54 paul shaun : good learning. I was in your situation 3 years ago (good PHP poor perl)
11:54 paul owen : & a guy that know what is an ILS & librarian daily work !
11:54 shaun lol - "I speak English, Spanish, PHP and Perl"
11:54 paul lol
11:54 paul don't forget : and MARC21 (or UNIMARC)
11:55 shaun ...brighter than the average bear, then...
11:57 shaun gtg now - will rach be back by 8:00 GMT?

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