Time Nick Message 12:02 paul sorry, disconnected my networkcard with my foot... 12:02 paul I repeat my question : 12:02 paul GST Registered 12:02 paul how to translate this to french is our question... 12:02 paul so, if someone could explain what it means. 12:15 Ben er, 'enregistré par GST'? 12:15 Ben at a rough guess 12:17 Ben can we not get google languages to translate the strings into english and then reword them? 12:17 Ben is anyone here? 12:18 paul yes Ben. 12:18 Ben right 12:18 paul the problem is that this rough translation means nothing in french 12:19 Ben 'GST Registered' would mean, roughly, 'enregistré par GST' 12:19 paul (at least, nothing interesting) 12:19 Ben I don't know what (the?) GST is 12:19 paul The translator (a woman) wondered if it were not a typical term in english 12:19 paul (GST : TVA in french) 12:19 Ben oh 12:20 Ben what does it actually stand for? i.e. TGV stands for train grande vitesse 12:25 paul TVA : Taxe sur la Valeur Ajoutée 12:25 paul (19,6% in France) 12:26 paul (GIST is the complete english term i think) 12:27 Ben ok 12:30 Ben shaun should be back on in a second - the simpsons has finished :) 12:30 kados hehe 12:31 kados yea ... pretty big news 12:32 Ben adobe's website has gone down after being listed on slashdot 12:32 kados hehe 12:32 Ben and I still have some script writing to do, plus two weeks' geog coursework to be handed in tomorrow 12:32 Ben nyargh.. 12:34 Ben we must get the argentinians to give us their code, or you're heading for a very tedious & repetitive coding session 12:35 Ben but how.. 12:46 shaun im back - i was also doing geography coursework :p 12:49 Ben lol 12:49 Ben shaun, do you know any perl at all? 12:50 shaun yes 12:51 shaun much more than my c(++), much less than my php 12:51 Ben shaun, good work on the mods to the circulation tmpl. can you change 'enter borrower...' to a paragraph 12:52 Ben and duplicate the formatting of 'settings' below in a new item 'Issues', to be placed just above the input box 12:52 shaun " Enter borrower card number or partial last name" ? 12:52 Ben yes 12:52 Ben then change 'circulation: issues' to 'circulation' 12:53 shaun imo, circulation: issues is better - circulation is the heading for the section. 12:56 shaun btw: can anybody help with using cvs? I am in a terminal, and don't know what server and repository to use... 12:59 shaun over at sourceforge it says "cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/koha co -P modulename" -- what is the modulename? 12:59 kados use co koha 12:59 kados for head 12:59 kados use co -r rel_2_2 koha for 2.2 12:59 kados don't need the -P 13:00 shaun so "cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/koha co koha" 13:00 shaun wow - big downloads... 13:01 shaun so, if I edit the template (say returns.tmpl was buggy - i'll try my hand at that first), how do I commit the changes with my sourceforge username etc.? 13:02 kados well ... you'll need to check it out as your sourceforge user 13:02 kados then just do cvs commit filename 13:02 shaun is that relative to the current directory? 13:02 kados so I run cvs -z3 -d:joshferraro@cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/koha co koha 13:03 kados well after you check out the tree you'll navigate to your file, make the changes then do cvs commit filename 13:04 Ben shaun,. could you please make the changes I asked you to do, or send me the tmpl? 13:06 Ben hmm, Adobe Dreamweaver.. 13:06 shaun so, im in /home/shaun, which has a subdirectory koha/ - I just use "cvs commit koha/koha-tmpl/intranet-tmpl/default/en/circ/returns.tmpl" ? 13:06 kados yep provided you checkd out koha as your sourceforge user 13:06 shaun | OT: I'm wondering what will come of GoLive 13:06 kados otherwise it won't work 13:07 shaun *checks out cvs* 13:07 shaun thanks 13:08 Ben hopefully golive will be crushed and burned 13:08 Ben gtg 13:08 Ben bye 13:08 shaun bye 13:16 shaun if anyone is here: cvs [server aborted]: "commit" requires write access to the repository 13:18 shaun brb 13:18 kados shaun: right ... so in order to commit stuff paul'll have to add you to the Koha developer list on sourceforge 13:19 shaun chris added me last night 13:19 kados huh 13:19 kados strange 13:19 kados are you sure you checked out the repo as your user? 13:19 shaun https://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php?group_id=16466 13:20 shaun Root: :pserver:shaunevans@cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/koha 13:20 shaun i really have to go - i'll be back in less than an hour 13:31 kados pserver won't work shaun 13:31 kados you have to use ssh 13:50 shaun ah, that's it - how does that work? 13:51 kados read this: http://sourceforge.net/cvs/?group_id=16466 13:51 kados http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=768&group_id=1 13:51 kados http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=14033&group_id=1 13:51 kados :-) 13:55 shaun done - im checking viewcvs just to make sure i haven't killed cvs ;) 13:57 shaun oh damn - owen got there first :p 13:57 owen on rel_2_2 only 13:57 owen But you should be working in HEAD 13:59 owen If you'd like to get emails when someone makes a commit (to keep track of what's new), go here: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/koha-cvs 13:59 owen There's also this list, for bugs: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/koha-bugs 14:00 shaun it doesnt seem to have gone in - any idea where the file I have committed would be> 14:00 shaun ? 14:01 kados are they new files? 14:02 shaun just returns.tmpl - Owen committed the change to 2.2, afaik - I tried to commit the change to HEAD 14:02 shaun shaunevans@cvs.sourceforge.net's password: 14:02 shaun Checking in koha/koha-tmpl/intranet-tmpl/default/en/circ/returns.tmpl; 14:02 shaun new revision: 1.19; previous revision: 1.18 14:02 shaun done 14:02 shaun Mailing koha-cvs@lists.sourceforge.net... 14:02 shaun Generating notification message... 14:02 shaun Generating notification message... done. 14:02 shaun [shaun@buildsys koha.dev]$ 14:02 kados yea ... so sourceforge seems pretty slow today based on a commit I made recently 14:02 paul_dine good news : it's in HEAD 14:02 kados give it a few hours 14:02 kados ;-) 14:03 shaun lol 14:03 shaun paul: how do you know? by checking out? 14:03 paul I know by koha-cvs mailing list) 14:03 shaun maybe the list message isn't up on sourceforge either... 14:03 kados the webview of cvs is usually way behind the actual tree 14:04 paul iirc, that's updated only once every X hours. 14:04 kados paul did you get my earlier commit to HEAD too? 14:04 shaun *signs up to mailing list, creating even more thunderbird rules* 14:04 paul opac-search? yes 14:04 kados yea that's the one 14:04 paul 9:11 14:04 kados I'm working on the suggest database creation script (documenting it) 14:04 kados I'll commit it as soon as i've finished 14:05 paul shaun : commit is OK, as well as log message. I'll take care of it for 2.2 branch. 14:05 kados it builds db for suggest, spellcheck, and search log 14:05 shaun ok thanks - yay, my first commit on koha :) 14:05 kados congrats shaun 14:05 paul let's have a virtual drink 14:05 kados hehe 14:05 shaun lol 14:06 paul I offer "pastis", the alcohol that all ppl in Marseille drinks 14:06 Ben hihi 14:06 paul hehe, we drink, so Ben arrives, that's it shaun ? 14:07 Ben lol 14:07 Ben I am not an alcohol-induce hallucinate vision 14:07 Ben *induced 14:07 Ben anyway.. 14:08 shaun Ben: all are alcohol our belong to you ;) 14:08 kados hehe 14:08 Ben shaun, circulation.tmpl, returns.tmpl and branchtransfers.tmpl please 14:08 shaun waawaawaa - you editing my templates again... what's wrong with the latter two? 14:09 Ben well, I don't actually want branchtransfers.pl, but the labels don't line up with the inputs, and there is a 'messages' box displayed even when there are no messages 14:09 shaun How do I build a directory structure in the style of either the release tarballs or the installed system at /usr/local/koha (for me, anyway) from CVS head? 14:09 Ben circulation.tmpl & returns.tmpl please shaun 14:10 paul shaun : misc/buildrelease 14:10 shaun hang on, signing in to IM 14:10 Ben ok 14:10 shaun ah, brilliant 14:10 Ben what's brilliant 14:11 Ben ? 14:11 shaun paul: shaun : misc/buildrelease 14:11 Ben ah. 14:11 paul to build a tarball release : $koharoot/misc/buildrelease sh script 14:12 shaun isn't it a perl script? 14:12 Ben (slightly) 14:12 paul oups, right. 14:12 paul it's a perl script. 14:12 paul (without the .pl extension, that's why i made the mistake 14:13 Ben shaun, *files please!* 14:14 shaun what's wrong with the current ones? I find it much easier to implement changes at this end if you tell me what's wrong - diffing the files is no good 14:15 Ben *deep breath* 14:15 Ben change the header 'enter borrower... last name' to left-aligned 14:16 shaun paul: it worked - I now have a koha-2.2.2.1.tar.gz that I don't know what to do with... :D 14:16 Ben change the spacing between it and the input box to match 'settings' etc 14:16 paul tar xvfz koha-2.2.2.1.tar.gz 14:16 Ben and matcvh all the other spacing in that div 14:16 paul ./installer.pl to install your version. 14:16 Ben to the settings div 14:17 paul in misc, there is an uninstaller too. 14:17 paul so you can test your packages 14:17 Ben also, there is too much space underneath the settings div 14:18 shaun I don't want it to overwrite current config... I'll stick with 2.2.2 and just modify the templates for now... 14:19 shaun just noticed - /tmp now contains a file called xses-shaun.jEReMy - I was talking to somebody called jeremy today :% 14:20 shaun i'm not ignoring you - i'm merely being silent while doing coursework... 14:21 Ben you're being pretty vocal to paul 14:22 Ben thankyou for doing the autofocus javascript 14:22 shaun can we wait to do this until tomorrow? I will be free, having handed in my coursework, and we will probably have talked to the katipo developers by then. 14:23 Ben they being? 14:24 shaun chris in nz (not katipo), plus rach and si (don't know much about si) 14:24 shaun paul: jooi, how did you become release manager? 14:24 Ben ok 14:24 paul jooi ? 14:25 shaun o... just out of interest 14:25 paul ok, thanks. 14:25 paul I became a release manager because : 14:25 shaun (soz, i go ott with my toflas) 14:25 paul 1- I was highly involved in the project 14:25 paul 2- I candidated to developp what was wanted (& was paid for that) 14:25 paul 3- I applied to be RM ;-) 14:26 paul as ppl were happy with me for 2.0.0, I applied again for 2.2.x 14:26 shaun don't mean to be nosy, but who employs you to develop it? 14:26 paul I could have applied for 2.4 once again, but I hope someone else will come with idea & take the role. 14:26 paul you're not nosy. 14:27 paul nobody employs me. i'm self employed. 14:27 paul but some libraries wanted to add some features to this great tools & launched a RFP. 14:28 shaun if i knew perl, I would probably jump for it - I have the time, most of the time... 14:28 paul then, some libraries came and said "ok, Koha is great, but I can't use it witjhout XXX, who want to develop this for me, for the price I would have to pay for a proprietary ILS" 14:29 paul now I've many customers that want me to install Koha. For the price I charge I have time to develop new features. 14:29 paul and I work with Henri Damien Laurent (nick hdl), at full-time on Koha 14:29 paul you know the story now ;-) 14:30 Ben so we are working by kernel version rules. 14:30 Ben going up in twos 14:30 shaun i c 14:30 shaun so, is 2.3 in existence (is it in english :p )? 14:31 Ben well, I am writing a presentation to give to ODFE soonish, as soon as we have got this general messy revamping sorted, inc. hopefully extracting the code from the argentinians 14:32 shaun btw: Paul, was it you who I told about why we are involved in Koha (about Linux in education)? I have a pic you may want to see 14:32 paul kados & al : do you know why my changes on the wiki don't appear ? 14:32 paul (on my RSS feed i mean) 14:32 kados no ... 14:32 Ben shaun, can I please see the pic as well? 14:33 paul yes, send the address. 14:33 shaun ben, you've seen it; http://dev.shaunevans.co.uk/fles/Screenshot.png (i think) 14:33 Ben oh, fles 14:33 paul strange, because i've rss feed on april, 9, and 4 14:34 paul shaun : i expected a picture of YOU ;-) 14:34 kados what's this screenshot for? 14:34 shaun being an RHEL clone, it still has the red hat... the interface work (metacity and gtk themes) was done by me based on the clearlooks engine, the icons are RH Bluecurve 14:34 Ben I told owen why we're doing koha 14:35 Ben kados, shaun is making a linux distro taylored for education based on RHEL 14:35 shaun FLES - the Free/Libre Educational System *name is open for debate with ben ;)* 14:35 kados sweet 14:35 Ben *tailored 14:35 shaun this is how we became involved in koha in the first place 14:35 Ben you told me is was free linux... :( 14:35 Ben it 14:35 shaun i didnt tell you that 14:36 shaun you thought of that in your sleep - one night it was FLES, the next morning it was another FLES :p 14:36 shaun wdyt of the screenshot? 14:36 Ben (20:49:37) Shaun: free linux education something. 14:37 shaun focus isn't on linux - the tools might run on windows just as well, after all ;) 14:37 Ben oh well 14:38 Ben anyway, shaun is developing a linux distro for education, including giant-graphics-tablet-syncronised-with-projector support, and some remote control software.. 14:40 Ben and we wanted a library system. shaun drew my attention to koha, which I said I was very impressed with, and I asked him to install it. two reinstallations due to shaun buggering it up later, and we had a working ish koha, which we have been improving for a while now 14:40 shaun earlier: "I am the founder of a Linux distro that will be used in primary and secondary schools in the UK - based on RHEL, with lots of things that schools find useful, e.g. vnc based remote control, pre-designed intranet and remote management, and I am including lots of OSS that RHEL does not come with, e.g. DansGuardian for filtering - the obvious choice for the library system was Koha, but we thought the interface had a lot of room for improve 14:40 shaun ment, and so, I am here now." 14:42 Ben and are hoping to install it on our school's server, saving the school €3 600 ($4,800) 14:43 paul_bed ok guys, take care. I go to bed. Then 4 days in Paris then Ouest provence. 14:43 Ben yay.. 14:43 paul_bed will be back on monday, 25 14:43 Ben bye paul 14:43 shaun thanks paul, see you later 14:44 shaun http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=160900911 14:44 Ben shaun, shall I invite doddy in? 14:44 Ben read it via slashdot ealier 14:44 Ben load of b*******s 14:45 Ben shaun, shall I invite doddy in? 14:45 shaun does doddy spend time on irc? what would he be talking about... 14:45 Ben dunno 14:46 Ben yes or no? 14:46 Ben answer needed now..! 14:47 shaun well, invite him in, but im not available for talking atm 14:52 DoddyUK lo all 14:53 kados hi there 14:54 DoddyUK :) 14:54 DoddyUK hows everyone? 14:55 Ben ok 14:55 Ben kados, this is mike dodd, one of our open source enthusiast colleages 14:55 Ben doddy, kados is a koha dev 14:56 paul_bed paul really go to bed now. Will read irc logs on http://koha.org/irc later... 14:56 Ben bye paul 14:56 Ben brb 14:56 DoddyUK bye 14:58 shaun doddy - are you using xchat, chatzilla or what? 14:59 shaun kados - when do the new zealanders at katipo come online? 15:00 kados anytime now 15:00 shaun ooh 15:00 shaun doddy also comes to the school that we will probably be getting koha to run in, and afaik helps out the techs 15:05 kados great 15:06 shaun the last few days have been hectic and i can't remember this... kados, did you see the templates up at http://koha.shaunevans.co.uk:8080/ ? 15:07 kados yep they look nice 15:08 kados you can bypass that initial refresh screen with a scriptallias in your virtual host 15:09 kados something like: 15:09 kados ScriptAlias /index.html "/path/to/mainpage.pl" 15:09 shaun well, i was thinking of replacing it with a colourful splash screen with the koha logo on, and increasing the refresh time to 3 or 4 seconds 15:09 kados oughta do it 15:11 owen But your librarians will hate having to see it every day ;) 15:12 kados hehe 15:12 shaun i don't know... the ALICE startup is quite painful - takes 3 minutes, on a good day (it could be turned off easily enough - just get the tech to delete the img tag, and reduce the refresh time to 0 - or use kados' method, ScriptAlias) 15:14 shaun talking of which - I was talking to the tech support guy in school, and he said that the entire ALICE database was stored in a few gigs' worth of flatfile... no wonder it's slow... 15:16 shaun *was expecting lols, maybe either my sense of humour is going, or everybody is sleeping...* 15:20 indradg shaun, I was reading up the transcript... just a word of advice abt using RHAT specific graphics in your custom distro 15:21 indradg RHAT specific graphics are copyrighted and yes propietory to RHAT... you can't reuse the shadowman logo 15:21 indradg it violates the RHEL EULA 15:21 indradg you might want to look into that 15:21 shaun im not using red hat logos, just the icons 15:22 indradg ok... you screenshot shows the smallish shadowman logo as the main menu graphics 15:22 shaun wbel, centos, lineox, tao linux etc use the Bluecurve theme, but have replaced all instances of the hat with their own project logos 15:22 indradg yep.. themes are OK 15:22 shaun yes - i said earlier that we will replace that, but we don't have a logo of our own yet 15:22 indradg cool 15:22 shaun (i should start my own irc channel for this...) 15:23 indradg not a bad idea 15:24 shaun know any hosts? i don't like freenode, don't know why... 15:24 shaun does anybody have a need for rpms of koha, that work out of the box for fedora and rhel-based distros? 15:28 shaun well, never mind, because i'm making them anyway for my distro... 15:35 kados good luck with that ;-) 15:35 kados it's quite tricky 15:35 shaun "it's quite tricky" -- how? 15:36 kados well ... try packaging yaz for instance 15:36 shaun see http://ftp.indexdata.dk/pub/yaz/redhat/fc2/ 15:37 shaun they've done it... 15:37 shaun I'm running my koha installation on those rpms on this box, btw 15:39 shaun the only perl module which doesn't have an rpm that i'm aware of is z39.50 - which I can probably achieve by reverse engineering the current source rpms for perl modules, and then writing a specfile with a dependency of yaz... 15:39 kados cool ... well I've got my Koha installs down to 8 mins without an rpm so I never got around to it 15:39 kados you'll need "Event" too IIRC 15:39 shaun what systems are you running? 15:40 kados I've got koha installed on Debian woody and sarge, FC2, 3, RHEL4, and OSX 15:40 shaun iirc? (ive never had a chance to ask 8-( ) 15:40 kados or do you mean where ... location? 15:40 shaun no, i meant what distros/OSes 15:40 kados right 15:40 kados IIRC if I recall correctly 15:41 kados I wrote all the install manuals on kohadocs ;-) 15:41 shaun anyway, making an rpm would be nothing compared to making an msi :p 15:42 kados hehe 15:42 indradg i installed Koha on Gentoo.... plan to write an ebuild one of these days 15:42 kados cool 15:42 shaun well, please share the ebuild - i can probably use it to make the specfile, if i dont get there first... 15:42 kados I've never gotten around to it mainly because all the packages Koha relies on as well as Koha itself are in a constant state of flux 15:43 kados and it's user-base isn't exactly wide 15:43 indradg well... package maintanence is an issue 15:43 kados and if you're brave enough to run your own ILS you better know how to put it together 15:43 kados piece by piece 15:43 kados well I differ slightly in my approace 15:43 kados I usually scrap the whole OS when I do an upgrade 15:44 kados approach that is 15:44 kados swap hardware too 15:44 indradg kados, that sounds a bit extreme ;) 15:44 kados that way I get to play around with different distros 15:44 kados it's pretty simple 15:45 kados i just change the IP address of the 'testing' machine to the IP of the 'production' 15:45 shaun you should only have to run emerge -uD world and come back a week later, then have a working operating system - then you have to install koha on it. 15:45 kados I leave the production machine on but unplugged from the network for abotua week after the upgrade just in case 15:46 kados then I double-check I've got all the data I need from it and start over ... 15:46 indradg cool 15:47 indradg kados, my blogpost http://blogs.randomink.org/node/view/206 15:47 shaun talking of which: i am getting a new hd tomorrow, and i am moving the current one over to my server, so i can set up an svn repo for the new templates, and host them up all the time, and i wont be randomly deleting chunks of stuff to find a couple megs of disk space any more... 15:47 indradg kados, here is a sample library card -> http://www.randomink.org/indradg/images/src-card.jpg 15:48 kados cool 15:48 shaun wow... 15:49 kados indradg: where's your rss? 15:50 kados got it 15:50 kados my blog is at kados.org ;-) 15:51 kados I haven't been too active lately with the new company and all 15:51 kados and it's really really slow due to being on an old 486 15:51 indradg as lame as it may sound this is first time that an university in eastern india is going for barcoded library card along with complete barcoding of all the items... and yes it all runs on Koha :D 15:52 kados wow 15:52 kados might as well go with something newer 15:52 kados fingerprinting 15:52 kados or dna analysis ;-) 15:52 kados or rfid 15:52 kados hehe 15:53 kados naw ... cards look good 15:53 indradg kados, this university has issued abt 100 smart cards to students on a test pilot..... but u know what there isnt a single card reader ;) 15:53 kados hehe 15:53 kados that's great 15:54 shaun in our library, we use library cards with barcodes, but for the last 8 years, we haven't had a barcode scanner, and probably will not have one in the forseeable future. I fail to see why. 15:55 indradg the reason being the IS dept and the company which designed those parts did it on Windows... and hold ur breath! their developers dont know how to use a RS-232c reader in Linux 15:55 indradg apparently the card reader doesn't come with a linux driver 15:55 indradg ;) 15:57 shaun (every time somebody issues a book in our library, the librarian has to type two 16 digit strings of numbers and letters, which seems pointless... this time, because everytime you plug the barcode reader in, the computer crashes, reloads the database, and then repeats several times.) 15:57 shaun (and that is on windows ;) ) 15:58 indradg so I suggested that they write a user-land driver for kernel 2.6.x... to poll the serio input layer, parse it and re-write the ASCII data to the input layer handler for PS/2 keyboard port... their developers gave me very ugly looks ;) 16:00 indradg also in india, the cost differential matters a lot.. the barcoded card costs abt US 9cents where as a smart card (microprocessor based) costs abt USD 4.5 16:04 shaun hmm, rach and co. seem late - owen said evening... 16:04 chris im here, just working 16:04 owen Well, they've got other business besides Koha 16:05 shaun they always seem to be signed in, but not actually online and talking... i want to talk to rach, as i have quite a few questions 16:06 owen Sure, if you never log off your machine, why not leave irc open? Makes it easier to catch up on what's been going on. 16:06 chris thats what screen is for 16:06 chris :) 16:06 owen Send an email to Koha-devel with your questions, and she can answer them when she has time 16:07 shaun ok 16:09 indradg chris, i hope u didn't see that last indo-pak match... it went horribly for us :P 16:09 chris luckily i was watching rugby instead 16:09 chris :) 16:09 indradg good :) 16:10 indradg lowest even domestic total :( 16:10 chris eek 16:11 indradg and that too on John Wright's last match as the indian coach 16:11 kados too bad they don't have every item 16:12 indradg kados, does the use of Amazon API call be any commercial agreement? 16:12 chris kados: seen books we like ? (http://bookswelike.net/) 16:12 kados cool 16:12 chris indradg: sad way to finish up as coach 16:12 kados indradg: you need a developer key and associates membership 16:13 kados see the docs in the Amazon.pm module (in HEAD0 16:13 kados HEAD that is 16:13 kados ) 16:13 kados :-) 16:13 indradg kados, will do... when I'm less sleepy in the morning ;) 16:13 kados interesting 16:14 chris yep 16:15 kados they have multiple isbns per item too so it may even be better than Amazon 16:17 kados actually it'd be nice to pull that data from lots of places 16:17 kados review, images, ratings, descriptions, everything we can get our hands on 16:17 kados ;-) 16:17 chris the more the better 16:17 kados hehe 16:17 chris i was thinking some patrons might like to be able to write their reviews and books we like would be good for that 16:18 kados right 16:18 rach morning 16:18 kados morning rach 16:18 shaun morning (evening? :p ) rach 16:19 indradg shaun, remember the international date line? ;) 16:19 rach is morning here 16:20 shaun lol, its 10:20 PM here... i'd best be getting ready for 2moz... 16:31 shaun rach: i've been waiting for you to come online for the whole weekend ;) - how is your progress with the logo and interface redesign going? we (ben and i) have a redesign test up and running at http://koha.shaunevans.co.uk:8080/ , un kohaadmin, pw hexthouse - we have yet to port over all the features of the default koha one, but the main features are there - circulations has been patched most so far 16:31 shaun im not making sense... v. tired... 16:32 shaun it's all in xhtml 1.0 strict 16:34 shaun wdyt? 16:34 kados she'll need the password 16:35 shaun ^ soz, im not forming sentences properly now... 16:35 rach he gave me that 16:36 rach looks good shaun (& ben :-) 16:38 shaun thanks - any suggestions for getting the official logo? have you got access to any non-rendered versions like svg? 16:38 rach but the colours are much improved :-) 16:38 rach yes I can send you that, e-mail me - rachel@katipo.co.nz 16:38 indradg well... i'm off to sleep... cya all 16:38 rach and you'll get one return post 16:38 kados night 16:39 shaun do you prefer vertical nav for <div id="submenu... and below ? i've seen its a part of the other new redesign (the conceptual one, which i have just seen) 16:39 shaun (in the flesh!) 16:39 rach yep - and we have done code for the other design 16:40 owen ...And NPL's :) 16:40 shaun and npl's, yes 16:40 rach um yep I do tend to - we have breadcrumbs on our one I think, and it gets a bit stripey otherwise :-) 16:41 rach I like your white box top right 16:42 shaun that was done last thursday - for four hours, I was sitting here with bluefish and firefox open - ben was on IM saying "a little to the right", "make that text a little bit darker", "slightly less left padding" and various other things about the header... 16:43 rach :-) 16:43 rach as you do 16:44 shaun i'm not sure how I could implement vertical nav into our design... 16:45 rach ah well, you'll have to stick with horizontal then 16:45 rach are you doing this for a particular library? 16:45 shaun owen: it's an html/css/other various web languages editor with helpers eg tag completion 16:46 owen Yeah, looking at screenshots now. The lack of a good editor was one of the things that kept me from moving to a Linux desktop at work 16:47 shaun i used to use DW - i find bluefish and the GIMP are quite adequate for any design work I want to do - i'm out of my wysiwyg stage now... 16:47 owen Yeah, I can't even use DW now if I try. 16:48 shaun you have missed a lot ;) - i'm doing it because i'm the founder of a project to build a linux distro for use in the education environment. obviously, secondary schools need some form of free libre library automation system, and koha seemed the most logical choice ;) 16:50 rach excellent 16:50 shaun we thought there was a lot of room for improvement in the default template, and i'm primarily a web *coder* (ben...) and a designer, so i thought I could help. 16:51 rach great 16:51 rach you won't find any argument about that here 16:51 rach personally I'm not very into the "boxes" look 16:52 kados msg chris my how things have changed 16:52 owen I think the more the merrier is the way to go with templates, but it is a LOT of work to keep up with updates. It's important that we get template authors to commit themselves to sticking with it. 16:52 rach http://katipo.co.nz/gallery/album102/cat_search 16:52 kados oops ... /me hates when that happens 16:52 rach we did this for 2.0 16:52 rach and have people using that 16:53 kados remember how many templates we had for 1.2? 16:53 rach we did a quick makeover on 2.2 for going to sydney, which is the bison version 16:53 kados there were like 6 or seven at one point 16:53 rach yep, they are hard work to keep up to date 16:53 kados yep 16:53 chris it has some *issues* tho 16:53 rach yes it does 16:53 chris which is why its not been committed yet 16:53 kados LibLime's templates aren't ready for commmitment yet ... we're still working with a modified version of NPL 16:53 shaun what are the issues? 16:53 kados for our demos 16:54 rach well you have to make sure that they do actually work :-) 16:54 chris bugs in the templates 16:54 kados mainly just HTML/CSS problems in IE for us 16:54 chris some of the html ppl got a little overzealous 16:54 chris and changed some of the TMPL_VAR bits .. or removed them 16:54 kados hehe 16:54 chris tends to go badly :) 16:54 rach mad buggers - did they 16:54 kados what the heck are those things ... get them outa here ;-) 16:54 owen :D 16:55 kados this is going to be CLEAN html ;-) 16:55 rach doing one set of templates is easy 16:55 rach redoing them every time a new feature is added less so 16:56 kados yep ... it's a pain 16:56 rach hence we tend to do them for particular clients at a particular point in time, if they are geting mods as well 16:56 kados there must be a better way 16:56 owen Sometimes I find it's easier to re-do a particular template from scratch rather than try to puzzle out the diff 16:56 rach you can do a lot with the CSS 16:56 shaun separate content from presentation and keep it modular ;) 16:56 kados yea ... great in theory 16:56 kados but hard in practice 16:56 owen Yeah, but what if your idea of modular isn't the same as the next guy's? 16:57 rach but some of the things that *I* think are wrong with any given "page" or module, are say the architecture of the page 16:57 rach rather than just the colour 16:57 kados and remmeber that the order of the html actually does limit your use of the css 16:57 rach http://koha.shaunevans.co.uk:8080/cgi-bin/koha/search.marc/search.pl?type=intranet 16:57 rach is a great example 16:57 kados user/pass? 16:57 rach of a page taht I think has some architectural problems 16:57 rach erm 16:57 rach it was up a bit - kohaadmin 16:58 shaun kohaadmin, hexthouse 16:58 rach hexthouse 16:58 owen Yeah, those long forms are a pain. 16:58 kados how wicken of you 16:58 kados ;-) 16:59 owen (shaun -- I find this page has a little too much white space, by the way) 16:59 shaun i haven't been into catalogue yet - hence most things /are/ broken ;) 17:00 rach ah so what's a bit you have? 17:00 shaun for some reason, all of the fields are in <p>s, and so there is unnecessary padding 17:00 shaun circulation 17:00 shaun | i will be changing them all over to plain labels, within divs tomorrow 17:00 shaun lol 17:00 kados just define <p> in your css 17:01 kados without padding 17:01 shaun *shaun realises it is 11:00, and he really needs to finish off this work for tomorrow* 17:01 kados IMO, in some cases, <p>s are better for older browser support 17:01 shaun i could, but i'm touching up the html/templates anyway tomorrow 17:03 shaun well, rach (or chris, can't remember) said that it's best to keep with mozilla-based browsers, as the librarians probably won't be using IE - and the chance of somebody using something like IE4, NS6 or some other ridiculously underused browser as their library terminal is minimal... 17:03 rach :-) 17:03 rach not really 17:03 chris i was saying the opac needs to be careful 17:03 rach it should at least work in IE 17:03 kados that may be true of the intranet 17:03 shaun it was chris then... 17:04 kados but imo the opac should work in every browser 17:04 chris but for our clients the intranet should work best in mozilla 17:04 rach and the OPAC must work in IE i 17:04 kados our's works in the original web browser ;-) 17:04 chris and if that means it looks a little poxy for IE .. serves them right 17:05 shaun the opac is much less complicated... go firefox, when it comes to providing a decent "desktop client" for a koha system, imo 17:05 chris lots of opacs are open to the world 17:05 chris so it needs to work in everything 17:05 kados the PINES Evergreen folks are going with a firefox extension for their intranet interface btw 17:05 rach you have to work in everything for the OPAC, even older IE etc 17:05 shaun any browser which supports forms, inputs and divs should not break the opac... 17:08 rach well all power to you shaun 17:08 rach look forward to seeing the finished product 17:08 kados ditto 17:09 shaun by hiding the css through @import, the older browsers are kept out anyway, and see the page without css - so then you only need to worry about NS6/7 and IE5+ - is it worth going to the time and effort to support "picky" interface features for pre-IE5, and pre-NS6 ? 17:09 shaun talking about opac, there 17:10 kados my perspective is that most of my potential clients are not computer savvy 17:11 rach none of my clients are computer savvy :-) 17:11 rach if they were they wouldn't need us 17:11 kados so if they see a weird opac because they have an older browser 17:11 kados the're not going to realize it's their fault 17:11 rach but if you're doing this for the DIY koha folks that's all good 17:11 shaun (i dont like making a decision like that - anybody got any apache logs for the client data?) 17:11 rach ? 17:11 rach you'd have to get that on a per client basis 17:12 shaun soz, by client i meant browser and platform 17:12 rach the stats for us here in NZ will be different to you in UK (? I think that's where you're from?) or the US or Uganda 17:12 kados I'd rather take the time to build a backwards-compliant interface so it looks decent even on their box ;-) 17:12 kados I'll tell you that at NPLS over 50% of our queries are outside the library 17:13 kados on the opac that is 17:13 kados don't have browser stats handy 17:13 kados I was actually surprised at that 17:13 kados I figured more people came to the library and THEN did their search 17:13 kados but most of our folks check first to se if we have something 17:14 shaun i would expect that too, but how many people are using IE4 or NS4? - I don't know what the push is like in NZ, but people in the UK are constantly being told about upgrading their browser etc...) 17:15 kados I have some browser stats I used for evaluating my website ... let me see if I can pull them 17:16 kados http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp 17:16 kados from a marketing friend: 17:16 shaun well, a website's stats would really be different again... e.g. my site receives 60% ff, 30% IE, and 10% script kiddies trying to hack me, while another site on the same server gets about 93% IE, and the rest Safari... 17:16 kados Here is some data. I can tell you that our Urchin data 17:16 kados (for www.ussearch.com) - we have 4% usage of Firefox and 1.5% of our visitors 17:16 kados are Netscape, and 85% are IE - we have about 6MM uniques a month so I would 17:16 kados think that is decent sample size. Of the 1.5%, 2% are on Netscape 6. All 17:16 kados others are Netscape 7 to 7.2. 17:17 shaun http://www.webopac.plymouth.gov.uk/cgi-bin/plymouth-cat.sh?enqtype=SEARCH -- where i live's OPAC - this degrades gracefully, but I wouldn't like to see it without non-CSS formatting 17:18 kados shaun do you have the web developer plugin for FF? 17:18 kados it's a must have 17:18 shaun which would that be? i have editcss and tidy... 17:19 kados http://chrispederick.com/work/firefox/webdeveloper/ 17:19 shaun i think i tried web developer before - i found it annoying 17:20 shaun yes, this is the same one. 17:22 shaun going to bed now, see you tomorrow... the test site is going down btw, it is on this box 17:22 kados I use the outline feature quite often 17:22 kados cao ... 17:23 shaun what is cao? 17:26 shaun bye 21:21 kados chris still around? 21:21 kados have you seen this: 21:21 kados http://cdsware.cern.ch/index.shtml 21:21 kados it's damn fast! 21:22 chris yeah its pretty nice 21:23 chris coupling it with koha would be good, using it to handle digital documents 21:23 kados I"m wondering if we can skip the whole process of redesigning our search and just integrate CDS 21:24 chris hmm probably be more work 21:25 chris youd have to redesign acquisitions and circulation 21:26 chris its more like greenstone than it is koha 21:28 chris but it certainly wouldnt hurt to look at how they do their search 21:29 chris its gonna be faster than ours, because its only searching the bibliographical data 21:30 kados and ours is searching holdings data too? 21:31 chris and items data 21:31 kados right 21:31 chris ie, this is for digital data... u dont have the concept of items 21:31 chris but maybe for speed we need to do that 21:31 kados paul found a major flaw with my idea: you can't search using phrases 21:32 kados hmmm 21:32 chris just search the biblio data 21:32 kados well we could have a single table with all the results data pre-populated 21:32 chris but then u cant restarict by branch etc 21:32 chris -a 21:32 kados I dunno ... I'm not clear on how to do it 21:33 kados in my "high perform mysql book' it says that sorting searches often causes slowness 21:33 chris yep 21:34 chris its the nature of the searches we are trying to do 21:34 kados if we could have the table auto organized by title and auto-populated we might be able to do the whole search in a single query 21:34 chris if ppl knew the titles ofthe books 21:34 chris and typed all of them, we could do an exact search and bang itd be super fast 21:34 kados yea 21:34 chris its because we have to do like searches 21:35 kados in fact, we shouhld allow that kind of search for advanced users 21:35 chris we used to 21:35 kados with handling of "" 21:35 chris it was called exact search 21:35 kados yea I know ;-) 21:35 chris and rosa wants it back 21:35 kados so do I 21:35 chris its one of the reasons they are still using 1.2.3 21:36 chris yep, ill put it back when i get a chance 21:36 kados is there a fear of many seperate search indexes for different searches? 21:36 chris the only thing is keeping them up to date 21:36 kados ahh 21:36 kados and real-time is pretty important for the holdings data 21:36 kados hmmm 21:36 chris so acquisitions/cataloguing needs to make sure it updates everything 21:36 kados right 21:37 chris only one thing worse than slow searches 21:37 kados and that could causes slowness on that side ... sigh 21:37 chris and thats wrong searches 21:37 kados right 21:37 chris u know what 21:37 chris we really should have an irc brainstorm 21:37 kados what 21:38 kados yea that sounds good 21:38 chris invite anyone who is interested 21:38 kados haven't had one in a while 21:38 chris and have a chat about 2.4 searching 21:38 kados that'd be great 21:38 chris everyone can bring along some ideas and we can natter and see what comes out of it 21:39 chris collectively we must be smart enough to come up with some good plans :) 21:39 kados it's too bad mysql doesn't have more complex data structures internally 21:39 kados like perl 21:39 chris ah well it kinda does 21:39 kados you could do some really neat stufff 21:39 chris i really think we need to look at using the newer mysql features 21:40 chris like stored procedures 21:40 kados ohh that looks nice 21:40 chris http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/stored-procedure-syntax.html 21:41 kados yep I'm there 21:41 chris and cursors 21:42 kados what's the advantace of cursors? 21:42 kados advantage 21:45 chris ok, currently our best case scenario 21:46 chris we do some query with a limit something 21:46 chris mysql hands us back 10 results or so 21:46 chris then we call it again 21:46 chris to get the next 20 say 21:46 chris next 10 even 21:47 chris so the query gets executed twice, or 3 times etc 21:47 chris now thats the best case 21:47 chris worse case is our query is some complicated we have to break it into 3 separate queries 21:47 chris then use perl to combine the results 21:47 chris and return some number 21:48 chris ie we run three queries, mysql returns all the results for all of them 21:48 chris and then if we want page 2 21:48 chris we do the same again 21:48 chris make sense so far? 21:48 chris with a stored procedure and a cursor 21:49 chris we define our complicated set of queries in mysql 21:49 chris and the cursor allows us to run it once 21:49 chris and then step thru them 21:51 chris persistence of results 21:51 chris between cgi calls 21:51 chris at least i think thats what they do :) 21:52 chris the other thing that will win us speed, is mod_perl 21:54 chris but i best get back to work :) 22:27 kados right ... sorry I was responding to a LibLime web inquiry (second one today!) 22:28 kados NPL is running mod_perl and Apache::DBI 22:37 indradg kados, what kind of speed gains do u see with mod_perl? 22:41 kados I didn't notice any ;-) 22:41 kados the only noticable speed gains come with a well configured my.cnf 22:41 kados and mysql version 4.0 or greater 22:42 kados (cause of query cache) 22:42 kados which was essential for NPL 22:42 kados server load goes down by about 1000% for us 22:42 indradg hmmm 22:43 indradg i use mysql 4.x anyway... for proper utf-8 support 22:44 chris you should win a big performance without perl starting and stopping and persistent dbi connections 22:51 chris eeeww 22:52 chris im getting horrible performance on my net connection at the moment 22:53 kados well I notice most perf gains from mysql configuration ... 22:54 chris yep that will win you the big swings 22:54 chris but everything should run faster under mod_perl 22:54 kados and since I have always done that part last it's prolly why I don't notice any difference with the other changes 22:59 indradg chris, I'm a perl newbie... so perhaps this is a newbie question... but has anyone tried to use perlcc with koha? 22:59 chris not that im aware of 22:59 chris might be something to try out some time 22:59 indradg i c 23:00 chris The code generated in this way is not guaranteed to work. The whole codegen suite ("perlcc" included) should be con-sidered very experimental. Use for production purposes is strongly discouraged. 23:00 chris but theres no harm in trying 23:00 indradg ok 23:12 indradg gnite 23:13 chris night 11:24 owen Hi tim, long time no see 11:26 tim Yeah. I had a lot of other stuff to do. Now I forgot most of what I learned before. Stupid short memory. 11:26 owen Yeah, I know what you mean. 11:27 owen I get that every time I decide I'm going to learn Flash again. 11:29 tim I'm trying to get current item status moved to Koha. The current system doesn't export a borrowernumber or itemnumber. Just the barcodes. 11:30 tim I'm hoping there's a MySQL query that could handle it, but so far I'm not having any luck. 11:30 owen Ouch...no circ data at all? 11:32 tim Circ data, but I need a way to get borrowernumbers and itemnumbers into issues when the old system uses the barcode numbers instead. 11:33 owen Oh, so the old system uses patron barcode and item barcode 11:33 tim Yup. 11:34 owen It sounds like a good Perl script would do the trick. In what format is the old data in? 11:35 tim I have all of the old stuff in the mysql test database now. It exported to dbf and I converted it. 11:37 tim So far I've been able to convert everything but the marc records using mysql. 11:37 owen So does your new Koha database have complete borrower and biblio/item data? 11:37 tim Yup. Got that much done. 11:38 tim At least it looks like it's done. 11:38 tim I hope 11:38 owen If you were able to use a script to do the processing, you could query the old data, loop over the results, and for each row query your new Koha database for borrower and item number, and insert as you go. 11:38 owen ...theoretically. 11:39 tim I just noticed the topic is Koha in non-public libraries. Looks like we're livin' on the edge here with all this rule breaking. 11:41 tim Yeah. That's why I've been checking into trying to get things done with mysql. I'm learning both mysql and perl, so using only one makes things easier. 11:41 tim sometimes 11:50 tim I like that one.