IRC log for #koha, 2005-04-17

All times shown according to UTC.

Time S Nick Message
14:42 pate congrats to any liblimers hanging about
14:55 chris heya pate :)
15:04 pate hiya Chris ... how's the weekend treating you?
15:10 chris pretty good so far, mind you its only 8am :)
15:10 chris did you see on the logs we got our 2nd NZ public library yesterday?
15:11 indradg chris, saw rachel talking abt it... good show! :)
15:14 pate i missed it ...
15:15 chris the interesting thing is, it went thru the full tender process, ie we were competing with the big boys ... so i think its a really good sign for koha
15:17 indradg the tender took a long time?
15:17 chris yeah nearly a year
15:17 indradg same story with govt/institutional tenders here in india
15:17 chris one things libraries dont do .. and thats hurry :-)
15:31 chris indradg: some good cricket being played over in your part of the world at the moment
15:32 chris the 6th game is gonna be huge
15:33 indradg chris, yep! today was a holiday on account of indian new year... so got to watch the match
15:33 chris ohh excellent .. that afridi .. boy can he hit or what
15:34 chris i remember when they played nz in 2003/4
15:34 indradg indian media is full of the controversy over indian captain 6 match suspension
15:34 chris we scored 304 .. and he nearly got pakistan there .. 302 they got .. that was a great game
15:35 chris ahh right ... for slow over rate?
15:35 indradg pakistan has some really good players
15:35 indradg yes... slow over rate
15:35 chris he's been a little out of form with the bat as well eh?
15:36 indradg yes... hasn't got many runs in the last 13 or so matches
15:36 chris maybe a blessing in disguise .. force the selectors to pick another batsman
15:37 indradg not that easy.... ganguly has changed the nature of the indian team during his tenure as capt
15:38 indradg indian cricket team never had a *real* national identity
15:38 chris ahhh
15:38 chris so they are finally playing well as a team?
15:38 chris and now they lose the force behind that?
15:39 indradg generally the capts would promote players from their own province... often at the expense of the other good players... and there would be tremendous amt of regional politics
15:40 indradg ganguly is the first indian capt who refused to follow regional patterns... and brought in and mentored talented players from other regions
15:40 indradg and going by statistics he also happens to be india's most successful test and ODI capt
15:41 indradg but he really needs to get back in form and *fast*!
15:41 chris yeah
15:42 chris flemming was having quite poor form problems as well, he seems to have finally got back into form
15:43 indradg one new face has come in the picture during the indo-pak series - Mahinder Singh Dhoni, the keeper... who can also bat :)
15:44 indradg its good to have a full-time keeper... at least relieves Dravid from doing triple duty in the matches which he also has to captain during the absence of ganguly
15:45 chris yeah .. and dravid is a much better batsman than he is a keeper .. well in my opinion anyway
15:46 chris the controversy here at the moment is all about wether we should tour zimbabwe or not
15:48 indradg why the controversy?
15:50 chris because of the human rights issue .. and zimbabwe are still suspended from the commonwealth ... politics vs sports
15:52 indradg aah... i c
15:54 indradg politics ensured that we didnt play with pakistan for last so many years
15:57 chris yeah
15:57 indradg i'm currently printing library id cards (bar-coded) using kbarcode
15:58 indradg its working nicely
15:59 chris excellent :)
16:01 indradg i'm thinking --> 1. Create the template for Library Membership cards using kbarcode since its nice and easy --> 2. write the code to parse the XMLised thingie that is actually the template -> 3. re-use some of the current --> generate the cards on-demand from inside koha with addition to the borrowers table abt their card generated status
16:02 chris hmm, that sounds like a good plan to me
16:05 chris ok, im gonna go find some breakfast
16:05 chris cya's later
16:08 indradg cya
08:38 owen Hi shaun
08:39 shaun hi (soz, just wondering whether I had found the right place...)
08:39 owen Yup
08:40 shaun Ben gave you my hotmail account - things never seem to get there for some reason - my real, attended address is
08:40 owen Okay
08:42 shaun The access keys that we have made so far (for the main 'tabs') are all accesskey="", with a number
08:45 owen Yeah, that's what I'm using here and there.
08:45 owen I've done some cursory investigation of javascript-driven access keys, but never got anywhere with it
08:45 bengoodge got it
08:46 bengoodge hi owen, shaun..
08:46 owen hi ben
08:46 bengoodge and various others hitherto unencountered.
08:46 owen (probably asleep)
08:46 bengoodge lol
08:47 shaun We had an idea of using a similar system to Alice (see to make a series of barcodes, which when scanned access the relevant tab - wdyt?
08:47 owen chris, rach, and si are New Zealanders (part of the team that originally built Koha)
08:47 bengoodge ok
08:47 shaun | hi ben - im lagging behind the conversation once again...
08:47 bengoodge brb
08:47 owen paul is the French developer, responsible for most of the latest developments in Koha
08:48 owen pate is a lurker, once active with Koha but not lately
08:48 owen kados is my colleage here at the Nelsonville Public Library, and he's probably asleep, if he has any sense ;)
08:49 shaun the link?
08:49 bengoodge shaun, I think that's fairly pointless, but could have some sort of use if we don't want mouse usage..
08:50 bengoodge we could have a strip of them running along the inside edge of the desk for dimbles etc to scan
08:51 owen It's an interesting idea
08:51 shaun well, in the good old days when the barcode scanner worked, it was taped to the front desk - that was before they went back to the original cards and inserts, etc.#
08:51 bengoodge ah.
08:51 owen Our librarians hate having to click more than once to get to anything
08:52 owen ...but we make them do it because it builds character
08:52 bengoodge ours are used to wading through swathes of ineffectively designed windows to get to the simplest function
08:52 bengoodge lol
08:52 shaun Ours love clicking - the GUI of the program we use is deliberately cryptic.
08:53 owen Windows GUI?
08:53 bengoodge yes
08:54 bengoodge poorly designed windows gui.. you have to switch to the master window, scroll down to the 'enquiry' item, and then double click it to get at enquiries
08:54 shaun Talking of which: does anybody know any businesses that support Koha in the UK? Our sysadmins and head librarian are paranoid about using something that is not supported by a company.
08:54 bengoodge btw, in that list email I sent about the reserves, your response was confusing..
08:55 shaun Ben: it's *Inquiry
08:55 bengoodge fine
08:55 bengoodge shaun, afaik there are none, unless the ones you talked to me about have UK extensions..
08:55 owen Some systems do use 'enquiry'
08:56 owen kados, what about slef?  He's in the UK.
08:56 shaun meh *slaps self over lack of knowledge of unconventional spellings*
08:56 bengoodge for the returns interface, I have come across two items which confuse me
08:56 bengoodge (circulation.tmpl)
08:57 bengoodge namely, RESERVE_WAITING and RESERVED..
08:57 owen circulation.tmpl is just for circulation.  Not for returns
08:57 bengoodge what is the difference between them?
08:57 shaun Ben: have you been on the testing server today? I have touched up #submenu.
08:58 kados have you guys seen
08:58 bengoodge shaun, I looked last night... it looks basically the same as before, can we change the text size/margins/padding please..
08:58 bengoodge saw that a while ago
08:59 shaun Ben: talk on gaim >
08:59 owen This guy used to be active with Koha:
08:59 owen But I don't even see anything on his site about Koha now.
09:00 kados I don't this there ever was ;-)
09:00 owen Oh, maybe this is it:
09:00 bengoodge hmm
09:00 bengoodge so, for RESERVE_WAITING and RESERVED, what is the difference between them?
09:01 bengoodge even stuart can't figure this one out, shaun..
09:02 owen It has to do with the status of a reserved item which is being checked out
09:02 bengoodge yes..
09:02 owen When an item is placed on reserve, it gets a reserved status
09:03 bengoodge I can understand reserved, but not reserve_waiting
09:03 bengoodge specifically: the difference between them
09:03 bengoodge brb
09:03 owen When a reserved item is returned by the librarian, the item is allocated by the system to fulfill that reserve, and is given the status 'waiting'
09:04 shaun Me being a web designer - does anybody have any opinions on the use of Mozilla-specific CSS3? rounded corners are nice, but afaik they're not going to be implemented in IE, and IE is the browser of the library that we are trying to get Koha used in.
09:04 bengoodge moz-specific is fine
09:04 owen The system now knows that the reserve has been fulfilled (that is, an item has been found that matches the requirements), and that frees up the other copies to circulate
09:05 owen A 'RESERVE_WAITING' is supposedly being held at the desk for the patron who reserved it, but there are cases where another patron might want to check the item out
09:05 bengoodge as long as it works roughly the same in ie, go for it
09:06 owen Like a husband coming in to pick up his wife's reserves.  In that case the books are being checked out by someone other than the patron for whom the books were originally reserved
09:06 bengoodge right
09:06 shaun *is confused
09:06 bengoodge hang on, shaun
09:06 owen The circulation system lets the librarian confirm the issue to the patron and cancel the reserve at the same time (since the reserve is getting fulfilled)
09:06 bengoodge so, we have for reserved:
09:07 bengoodge no, wait..
09:07 shaun ben: change your name from bengoodge to ben ;)
09:07 bengoodge how?
09:08 bengoodge chatzilla obeys standard irc commands
09:08 shaun dunno, im on x-chat, rtm :p
09:08 bengoodge so 'reserved' is for books in the library rather than set aside, for someone who is coming in later to get them?
09:09 shaun So many questions: what is the font for the 'Koha' in the official logo?
09:09 owen RESERVED is for books which are on reserve, but haven't been allocated by the system yet (because they haven't been found and returned by the librarian)
09:09 bengoodge batami mt
09:09 bengoodge right..
09:09 shaun | batami mt: are you sure?
09:10 bengoodge so reserved is for books which are on loan; reserved_waiting is for books which are in the library.
09:10 bengoodge no
09:10 bengoodge hang on..
09:10 shaun owen, do you know the font?
09:10 bengoodge bodoni mt
09:10 owen reserved is for any book that hasn't been returned and allocated by the system.  It might be checked out, or it might be on the shelf.
09:10 bengoodge knew it was something like that
09:11 bengoodge right..
09:11 bengoodge so reserved is for books which haven't yet been set aside, and reserve_waiting is for books which have been set aside?
09:12 owen yes
09:12 bengoodge ok
09:12 shaun ben: are you sure that's not just your fake of the koha logo, not the official one?
09:12 shaun * yay, i understand
09:12 bengoodge no, it's definitely bodomi mt, I looked at it character by character
09:12 bengoodge it's bodomi mt italic
09:14 bengoodge so what would a suitable error message be for reserve? 'Item is on reserve. Please set it aside and notify <-- reserved -->'?
09:14 shaun ben: compare serverroot/intranet-tmpl/d​efault/images/kohalogo.gif with[…]ogo_001.thumb.jpg
09:15 shaun the K seems to have a loop in yours.
09:16 bengoodge good point
09:16 bengoodge however, every other letter matches up..
09:17 owen Depends on your library's policy.  In our library the person with the book in their hands gets top priority, so the librarian will always override the reservation and check the book out
09:17 bengoodge maybe I used the separate italic font and they just italicised it
09:17 shaun both the o and the a need to be more hollow, and the h should not be as high.
09:17 bengoodge[…]ha-front-koha.gif
09:18 bengoodge that's the one in use on the test-drive system
09:18 bengoodge I used bold, btw
09:19 bengoodge let's recap
09:20 shaun owen: should the logo, in the top left-hand corner of our design include anything other than koha? (eg LIBRARY SYSTEM)?
09:21 owen Come back Monday evening (your time) and ask rach.  She'll know the font
09:21 bengoodge for reserved, the item has not yet been 'returned and allocated' < meaning what?
09:21 shaun ok, thanks
09:22 owen Koha knows that a reserve has been fulfulled when the reserved item is checked in and the reservation is confirmed by the librarian
09:22 bengoodge ok
09:22 bengoodge so 'reserved' status is for items which haven't been checked back in yet?
09:23 bengoodge and it becomes 'reserved_waiting' when the item becomes available for the reservee to collect, hence 'waiting' status?
09:24 bengoodge ?
09:24 owen the reserved status is for items which haven't been checked in yet--although they may not be checked out
09:24 Ben right
09:24 owen And the status becomes 'reserved_waiting' when they are checked in and the reservation is confirmed
09:24 Ben ok
09:24 shaun | well done, ben :p
09:25 Ben shaun, hrrm
09:25 Ben you must remember I am 14 years old, British and in possession of a headache and small brother in the background
09:25 owen Do you have a test installation of Koha up and running?
09:26 Ben yup
09:26 Ben[…]qui/
09:26 shaun yes - its running on fedora core 3
09:26 Ben we're doing our interface mods on it
09:26 shaun the z3950daemon is not running atm, ill fire it up...
09:26 Ben brb
09:27 Ben back
09:27 owen Looks good. You need some sample data, though, hunh?
09:28 Ben mm.
09:28 Ben aquisitions > add biblio has been broken by shaun's cssing, and it was incomprehensible when it worked
09:28 shaun yes, we do - but z39.50 has errors... "Looks good." -- referring to the design?
09:29 shaun * its circulations, not acquisitions
09:29 owen Yes, the design looks good
09:29 shaun wrong again
09:29 shaun its catalogue
09:29 shaun thanks
09:29 Ben whatever
09:29 Ben thanks
09:29 owen Do you have *any* data at all?  Any books or patrons entered?
09:29 Ben we did lift the tabs wholesale from, but we're working on our own
09:29 Ben we have three patrons
09:29 shaun lol
09:29 Ben no books though
09:30 Ben (patrons are me, shaun and my dad)
09:30 shaun we don't have any source of data for books - although I will try Eunice for some MARC data ;)
09:30 Ben yes
09:30 owen If only z39.50 was working for you, you could grab some things that way
09:30 Ben ja
09:31 Ben shaun, did you try any z39.50 servers at all except the british library one?
09:31 shaun yes - new zealand got further *tries to dig out logs*
09:33 shaun what is the location of the login script .pl? the unpriveleged user is unable to access parameters, and thus I can't get into the z39.50 settings
09:34 owen There are a few things you need to check to get system administration working again
09:34 owen First, make sure you have the most up-to-date copy of
09:35 shaun hang on, yes i can, by using the full path - is this a potential security issue, an unpriveleged user being able to access the settings?
09:36 owen I was able to get into your intranet with no username or password--that's what's insecure
09:36 shaun ben turned that off so W3C can check it
09:36 Ben we did that to let the w3c validator check it non-tediously
09:37 Ben i.e. without uploading
09:37 owen Well, you can't evaluate Koha's security if you've got it turned off!
09:37 owen Have you seen this page?[…]
09:37 shaun security isn't really an issue...
09:38 Ben we're not evaluating its security, we're checking the XHTML
09:38 Ben yes, we did encounter that
09:39 owen You have to have the right priviledges to access
09:39 shaun if there was a checker more comprehensive than Tidy in firefox, I would use that...
09:40 shaun are you talking about koha permissions ( or unix permissions?
09:40 owen koha permissions
09:41 Ben shall we just let tidy do it? w3c validator is really annoyingly pedantic, and causes thesae problems
09:42 shaun tidy cannot tell things that are only in XHTML strict - e.g. something=something instead of something="something" on the returns page
09:43 Ben ah
09:43 shaun auth is back on - i am changing the password to give to owen, and other devs who want it
09:43 Ben ok
09:45 Ben the password is hexthouse
09:46 Ben oh well
09:46 shaun and username is kohaadmin
09:46 Ben shaun,can you please send me
09:48 Ben thanks
09:48 Ben doh
09:48 shaun sent; please don't go editing it - we are trying to separate content from presentation
09:49 Ben I meant circulations.tmpl... guh *slaps head*
09:49 shaun ah...
09:49 shaun owen: are our z39.50 settings OK?
09:49 Ben btw owen, I presume koha has support for multiple copies?
09:50 Ben and also, is there any 'opening days' work in the pipeline/present?
09:51 owen Sorry, I got busy here.
09:52 Ben shaun, circulations.tmpl please
09:52 shaun "multiple copies" -- you mean multiple installations on one server? sure :p
09:52 Ben no, I mean multiple copies of the same book
09:52 owen Ben, of course
09:52 Ben goodo
09:52 Ben how about opening days?
09:53 Ben we don't want it calculating that books need to be back on a day the library is going to be closed
09:53 shaun *was wondering how a library system could go without having several copies of popular books
09:54 shaun theoretically, it cannot calculate that: if the loan time is say two weeks, the return date will be the same day, two weeks time...
09:54 owen Yeah, so your parameters screen is working now that auth is back on
09:54 shaun good - are the settings for z39.50 OK?
09:55 owen Looks okay to me, but I'm not an authority on z39.50 settings
09:56 Ben what about school terms, shaun? bank holidays? unscheduled closing?
09:56 owen Ben, there isn't a way to specify those yet
09:56 Ben I presume that 'patron is debarred' is a Poulain mistranslation meaning 'patron is debarred'
09:57 owen Some developers in Argentina have worked out a calendar system, but they haven't shared the code with us
09:57 Ben * patron is barred
09:57 Ben owen, we should ask nicely
09:57 Ben :)
09:58 Ben is  'patron is debarred' a Poulain mistranslation meaning 'patron is banned/barred' ?
09:58 owen It looks from the behavior of the z39.50 search that it's working properly, but the isbn I tried turned up nothing
09:59 kados Ben: nope that's actually the right term
09:59 owen debarred is a term used by some library systems
09:59 Ben ok..
09:59 shaun none of the ISBNs i have tried have worked
10:00 shaun 5143/37 : Processing isbn=0385510454 at ZED.NATLIB.GOVT.NZ pinz MARC21 (2 forks)
10:00 shaun 5143/37 : 2 >>
10:00 shaun 5143/37 : creating and 5143/37 : working on results entry 9
10:00 shaun 5143/37 : connected to ZED.NATLIB.GOVT.NZ
10:00 shaun 5143/37 : ZED.NATLIB.GOVT.NZ : no records found
10:00 shaun 5143/37 : search done.
10:01 Ben <!-- TMPL_IF NAME="DEBT" -->
10:01 Ben <p>The borrower has a debt of <!-- TMPL_VAR name="DEBT" -->. Continue?</p>
10:01 Ben does that mean that the borrower has exceeded their group's 'max debt before no loans' setting?
10:02 owen Could be...I'm not sure because we don't charge fines here
10:02 Ben oh dear
10:02 Ben kados?
10:02 Ben kados, any ideas?
10:03 kados no it just means that the borrorer has debt ;-)
10:03 kados so it will query staff before allowing an issue ... pretty standard procedure
10:03 shaun i would suggest that the 'max debt before no loans' setting i a hard limit.
10:03 shaun i*s*
10:04 kados not sure I understand what that means
10:04 owen Guys your add biblio screen needs work :)  But then again, so does mine!
10:04 kados it's hard coded?
10:04 Ben no, it's not hardcoded
10:05 shaun its a hard limit - as in it cannot be overrided by the librarian, only the person who sets parameters - am i right in saying that?
10:05 kados yep
10:05 Ben buried in Paramaters/Settings, it's configurable
10:05 Ben yes
10:05 shaun 5166/38 : Processing isbn=0385510454 at ZED.NATLIB.GOVT.NZ pinz MARC21 (3 forks)
10:05 shaun 5166/38 : 2 >>
10:05 shaun 5166/38 : creating and 5166/38 : working on results entry 10
10:05 shaun 5166/38 : connected to ZED.NATLIB.GOVT.NZ
10:05 shaun 5166/38 : ZED.NATLIB.GOVT.NZ : no records found
10:05 shaun 5166/38 : search done.
10:05 shaun Event: '??' died and then $Event::DIED died with: Can't call method "attributes" without a package or object reference at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/i​386-linux-thread-multi/ line 104.
10:05 shaun at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/i386-li​nux-thread-multi/Net/Z3950/ -- i think this is the problem...
10:05 kados hehe
10:06 kados good luck with that z-client
10:06 kados check the email archives ... there may be some answers there
10:06 owen shaun, try a z39.50 search using a title instead of an isbn.  That worked for me
10:06 kados I've got to go
10:07 Ben bye kados
10:08 Ben when are we getting some data?
10:08 Ben shaun, I just sent my revised-messages version of circulations.tmpl
10:10 Ben (most of it remains unchanged)
10:10 shaun am i doing this wrong? I still get Still ?? requests to go
10:12 Ben owen, what title would you suggest?
10:12 Ben shaun, you should be on this page:[…]imple/
10:13 Ben I think
10:13 shaun I am on that page
10:13 Ben ah
10:14 shaun owen: what results do you get for "the client"? I have tried it and it doesn't seem to want to connect, with the same error message each time.
10:14 owen Did you put a title in the 245a field?
10:15 shaun yes
10:17 Ben whoops.. (aplogogies to shaun if his printer starts printing at this point)
10:18 shaun don't worry, ben... it is now conveniently unplugged, and the print queue is being moved to /dev/null, or somewhere thereabouts.
10:18 Ben lol
10:18 Ben sorry
10:19 shaun Event: '??' died and then $Event::DIED died with: Can't call method "attributes" without a package or object reference at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/i​386-linux-thread-multi/ line 104.
10:19 shaun at /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.5/i386-li​nux-thread-multi/Net/Z3950/ line 258
10:19 shaun brb
10:19 Ben I have found some usage targets...
10:20 shaun back
10:20 Ben we want dimbleby/baldwin to be able to run and print the results of an enquiry on psychyology or sociology within 35 seconds
10:21 Ben based on my measuring their speed of doing so using ALICE yesterday
10:21 paul_away shaun : there's a bug in z3950 client in 2.2.1 it's fixed in 2.2.2
10:21 shaun lol...
10:21 paul_away (not really here)
10:21 shaun this is 2.2.2
10:21 Ben paul_away, we're using 2.2.2
10:21 paul_away mmm... strange.
10:21 Ben paul_away, hi
10:21 paul_away will have a look on monday.
10:21 Ben ok
10:21 Ben tx
10:21 shaun was the bug similar to this problem?
10:22 Ben brb for 20 mins
10:24 shaun ben: don't touch anything for a min, owen: I'm restarting the z39.50 daemon with a new log for me to capture; could you try the search again in 5 minutes time please?
10:24 owen sure
10:27 shaun owen: ok, now if possible
10:28 owen Yeah, I get 3 results for a search for 'the client', from Z3950-ZED.NATLIB.GOVT.NZ
10:29 shaun that time, the error didnt come up in the log - could you guide me through what you did (i am at catalogue > add biblio atm)?
10:30 shaun owen?
10:31 owen I went here:[…]mple/
10:31 shaun done
10:31 owen I typed 'the client' in the 245a field (tab 1), and clicked the z39.50 button
10:32 owen After the pop-up refreshes once or twice, three results come up
10:33 paul_away right shaun, the bug was not this. It was something like "mysql disappear".
10:33 shaun got it! it seems as if the error message is still showing up though...
10:34 shaun thanks paul - the problem appears to be the time the daemon takes to refresh...
10:43 shaun there still appears to be a problem with searching for ISBNs
10:45 shaun | brb
10:48 owen Yeah, even searching for an isbn that came up in the previous search doesn't work

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